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There are those in the spotlight, and then there is Everybody Else.
Hosted by Wes Luttrell (Indiana-based artist growth coach and label founder), Everybody Else is a podcast dedicated to the invisible people who make music happen. Featuring solo commentary and insightful interviews with record label execs, tour managers, music tech founders, producers, venue managers, and a slew of others, this show's mission is to pull back the curtain on the lives and ways of thinking of those who make up the modern music ecosystem. New episodes streaming every Tuesday.
Speaker 2 (00:00.748)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service, there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right, will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
Speaker 1 (00:29.614)
What is a day in the life as somebody who is helping people with performance? What is performance coaching?
Yeah, so I think at its most basic, right, it's helping people drop into the moment, right? So whether it's because of imposter syndrome, whether it's because of, you know, kind of stage fright or, you know, kind of any worries, anxieties, whatever you want to call it, right, trying to really think about letting go of those thoughts so that they're not as impactful and really dropping down into the moment so that they get to show up as their best selves.
Do you, when people come to you, are they aware of the problems that they're having? Or are they coming to you, are they saying, am stage fright? Or are they coming to you kind of saying certain challenges or problems, then you're unpacking what's really driving.
I think they, well, so I think one way to phrase that is they come with the what, they don't necessarily know the why. And so part of my job is to balance how much we go into both of those, right? So I think in the immediacy, right, people want some degree of relief, right? They want to feel like they're coming, they're getting real value out of what it is. And so it's really thinking about particular skills that they can kind of utilize to kind of
address whatever it is that they've named is the what. And then part of my job also is weaving in more exploration around the why and kind of where things come from and kind of think about how that's impacting the what in the moment. Truthfully for me, I think I spend some time in the why and a good amount. think it's really important to do that. I also think it gets to a point for a lot of people where it's like, okay, we know the why, now what?
Speaker 2 (02:24.63)
Right? And so it's also being able to come back and weave into this idea of like, okay, let's really think about what's going on for you in this moment. Where is it that you're trying to go? Right? How do you want to get there? How do you want to show up and being able to kind of utilize a new way of approaching things that kind of really works for them.
So when you, I wanna go two ways, but first, when you are helping somebody work through, what are some tools that you would recommend people, or what, I'm sure it differs, but what are some general things that you think that would sort of unpack why these things are happening, or what are some practices or some tools that you would share with someone?
So I think routine building is really important. whether you're talking about musicians, athletes, know, high performers in business, it kind of works across industry, right? But a lot of it comes down to your different type of routines. So when it comes to true performance, right, you have your practice routine, right? So if you are, you know, a writer, right, a songwriter thinking about,
What is that working space? How do you like to approach that space? We were talking about coffee earlier. What does that routine look like for them to kind of set them up to be in somewhat of a flow state? You can't force a flow state, but you can certainly work around the edges and think about, okay. Activate the, yeah. Exactly. So there are different type of routines. So there's your kind of practice routine, there's your pre-performance routine,
know, resetting your in-performance routine, your post-performance routine. So a lot of it is exploring, you know, kind of what works for them in that sense, right? So, you know, I've had musicians where they get really amped up before they go on stage, right? And we could say, we want to be really high energy, right? Probably want to figure out where that appropriate level for them is. So maybe part of their, like, pre-performance routine is doing a bunch of push-ups, right? And...
Speaker 2 (04:40.206)
doing that to a number or a degree where they still feel energized and kind of present and engaged, but they don't feel everything like kind of rushing through them in the same way. So that would be an example there. know, resetting routine would be something where if there's a particular part of a song that is, you know, difficult for them or if they miss a note or play something, you know, in a way that isn't exactly the way that they like.
having something that they get to come back to that just kind of lets that go, right? Reset, right? And then keep going so that they're not getting stuck, which is then gonna cause more kind of errors or disruptions kind of throughout the rest of the song or performance. So then the other part is, right, you get really high energy at the end, right? You feel really good. Maybe there's a sense of, know, kind of relief there, you know, and...
depending on whether it was a great performance, a really good performance, one that you struggled in, really thinking about how to evaluate and kind of be in that performance emotionally afterwards. And so something that I talk about with people is if you need to hold a guitar pick or if you need to...
you know, kind of keep your, you know, costume or, you know, performance clothes, whatever, you know, on your body backstage for a little bit of time, just to give yourself that time to kind of be in the performance still. But then also being really mindful and intentional about take, you know, putting down the guitar pick or, you know, taking off those clothes and then doing that, right, you're letting go of that performance, right?
you're still maybe look at it later and kind of think about the things. But in terms of like the emotional state of the performance, we're actively choosing to let that go so that you can then kind of get back into your family life or, you know, go out to, you know, wherever you're going with friends or family and kind of let that part of yourself go.
Speaker 1 (06:47.736)
That's great. Especially, I haven't thought much about the post routine, but that makes so much sense because I would think too, as a couple things came to mind, was that really endurance is the name of the game for high performers, right? Like the ability to sustain, to get back to neutral before the show, then, okay, here we go, and then we're gonna start the routine, we're gonna set the pace.
And I remember one time reading that the real, like the separation between the top, what was it like, top 5 % of athletes and then everybody else who are professionals, so they're already the top 1 % of their field or whatever, is that the top performers, somebody like Larry Bird, was able to, if he misses a shot, next play. That was his like, ability to turn back around and not let the last mistake hang around.
In golf, we kind of talk about it as like, you know, the next shot is the most important shot, right? And so, you know, I use a similar technique as what I was talking about with the guitar pick with kind of golfers in particular, which is, know, if they hit a shot and they're kind of stuck in the moment and kind of they're really upset about what they did, they can hold on to that as long as the club is in their hand. Right. Then if they need to, you know, when they walk up to that ball and, you know, they hand it to their caddy or, know, if you're a weekend warrior and you kind of are
get in the car, if you need to hold on to that club, you could do that. The moment you are intentionally putting the club in the bag, you're letting go of that shot. During COVID, a lot of what I was talking about with anybody that works in any job, particularly if they were working from home, was a sense of people were accustomed to going to work, closing their computer.
going into the elevator, getting into their car, driving home, there was this natural separation to kind of then enter into their house. Yes. COVID kind of disrupted that, right? Because they were either in the dining room or they were in an office in their house or a bedroom or whatever have you. And they would kind of wrap up their last meeting or last thing, and then they would just be out in the living room with their family. Yeah. And so was really hard for people to give themselves the ability to adjust.
Speaker 2 (09:11.232)
into that new space. It's hard, it's whiplash. And so a lot of it was really thinking about being intentional again. This is so much of what I talk about is being intentional, being in the moment. And so thinking about, okay, if I'm gonna choose to close my laptop, I really like these tangible things. So closing of the laptop and kind of taking that breath and then kind of using the doorway, if you will, as like, okay.
Now I'm coming into this new space and doing that intentionally because otherwise it's too quick of a shift. Right? And so we've got to give ourselves time to adjust so that we can act with purpose.
That's awesome. I can really see how the tangible acts of shutting the laptop or holding the golf club until the next hit, I can really see how the activity of doing that keeps a person in the present moment and, okay, now I'm going to put the thing back down. Versus, I I remember, I mean, it still happens sometimes if I'm, I'm not in the studio so much anymore, but if I'm working for a,
long period of time downstairs, the family gets home, the kids come downstairs, there's no break in focus. then all of a sudden, the work version of myself is trying to get the kids to stop doing something. It's like, you just immediately apply that same framework to your family or something, which isn't...
And not even in as good of a way either, right? Because what happens for us is we kind of recognize we're in work, right? There are social norms, right? And so it's intentional, but it's kind of common sense for us oftentimes, right? Where our reactivity or the way in which we approach people is very different with our kind of work persona. And then that's where you hear people snap at their kids or.
Speaker 2 (11:12.078)
you know, kind of they get really upset because they feel like they're short with their family in a way that they don't want to be, right? But again, it's, we've kind of, we get comfortable, right? Our family is our home base, right? And so, you know, we're not necessarily as thoughtful about how we approach it, but we have to be more thoughtful, right? Because these are the people that are most important to us. And so a lot of what I talk about with people is that I try to look at the person as a whole person, right?
the stuff that is going to be happening at home is going to impact your performance. The things that happen in your performance is going to impact how you show up at home. We can certainly talk about compartmentalizing and kind of getting into those moments, but the reality is we are people. I work with people. And so we have to think about all the different areas of our life and how they show up in different ways.
Do you, is that from a, let's say scientific or, is that sort of a new way of thinking in terms of your education or your background in terms of, what I mean by that is like, it seems to me like there's just a much more general awareness of the holistic life that what I put into my body affects me or,
the people I spend my time with, it affects my mood, which affects all this other stuff. Do you think this is a newer, is this like a-
I don't know if it's new, I mean, I think we've always known whether or not we press it in the right way. mean, we tend to repackage things, right? But they do come back to the same stuff typically, right? I mean, we know exercise is incredibly important. I mean, that is where you gotta take care of your body, your mind, your spirit, right?
Speaker 2 (13:06.922)
And it doesn't matter what industry you're in or kind of what your relationships are. Like we need to take care of that. We need, we are social beings, right? It is really important to have some degree of, you know, kind of social interaction and relationship with people. So I think that's not necessarily a new idea. think my, clinical training certainly, you know, brings a lot of that to the forefront. And so I, I am a clinician first and foremost and
You know, I've applied it to performance and high performance. But I think a lot of people are doing similar things. I think, you know, the reality is I can say things in a really simplistic, easy way. Putting it into practice is incredibly hard. so that is where, you know, it's not just saying, hey, here's the skill, now go do it. It really is building a practice and being mindful, kind of,
each and every day to kind of internalize a lot of what it is that we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (14:11.79)
This episode of the Everybody Else Podcast is supported by Throughline Development Company. This morning in yoga class, I was standing in the middle of the room and there wasn't that many people and I was looking straight ahead at the mirrored wall.
And I was thinking, you know, adjust your right hip down a little bit so it's level with your left as your right foot's up in the air. I'm like thinking, but then what I really then thought about was how I'm so glad that these mirrors line the walls of the yoga studio because they provide me with instant feedback. They provide me with self-perceived accountability. Am I doing this right? I can see it in real time.
And it made me think of the value of a coach, the value of somebody who can provide you with real time feedback in the moment, even as simple as in a session, looking across the table from a coach and saying what you believe to be true. then looking at you with honesty and no judgment, just we're just listening to what you're saying here. You can hear yourself and think, I can't believe I just said that out loud. That's what I've actually been thinking about.
you know, this next move in business or my role within the company or my, you know, my vision for this next song, this next project. And as me and David discussed in here, you know, even the relationship, entering into a relationship where you say, I am going to show up honestly, vulnerably, and consistently with another person who is going to show up and support me.
in being this version of myself and really working through the challenges and the ideas that I am, that pertain to my situation, that alone is a huge accountability container. And the more accountability, the more transparent, the faster one can develop in life. The faster one can move through the challenges and the obstacles of life. And this is my, this is my role. This is how I show up.
Speaker 1 (16:21.464)
for the artists that I serve and the people that I serve in Throughline Development Company. I call it, you know, my role as artist growth coach, but I like this role better of chief growth curator. It's an interesting title because it leans towards creativity. It leans towards my artistic background where you bring me into your project and we're really going to, we're gonna first dig deep to identify what your vision is.
Then we're gonna work to curate the environment around you, the people, the systems, the structures. We're gonna refine what stays and what can be let go of, what matters and what honestly doesn't. What's good versus what is great. So please check out artistdev.co if any of this resonates with you, or shoot me an email at wes at artistdev.co and introduce yourself, send a little bit about your project. I'd love to hear what you're up to and...
get on a call and see if my service is a through line would be the right fit for you. Thanks for listening to the podcast and now back to the show. Yeah, it's interesting. On the way here, I was thinking about what is the value of coaching? What is the value that I've received from being coached or having a business coach? There's something I was thinking about and I'm curious if this resonates with you is that through coaching, you cultivate transparency if you're honest, if you engage with this honestly.
If you show up, you will increase transparency between yourself and the universe in reality. through working with somebody and through saying things that are true to you to somebody who's present and listening, and then showing up the next week, and then looking at you honestly and presently, that alone is accountability. That is like a container of accountability. But through this sort of...
And this is where the practice, I think, arises, is that through this routine of transparency and accountability, become, relationship with the universe becomes, or with reality itself becomes more honest, and then now you can make transformative change within your reality, and does that resonate?
Speaker 2 (18:44.738)
Yeah, look, I mean, I think there are a lot of times where one of the first things people are looking for when they come to me is a sense of accountability. So you asked me earlier, do people know why they're kind of coming in? So they do have a sense. I mean, it's not my job to say, here's where we need to go. I mean, I can throw ideas out there based on what I'm hearing.
I think of, you know, what I say to people oftentimes is, know, it's my office, it's your space, right? So I really want to cultivate an environment where they feel comfortable, where, you know, they are kind of being true to themselves. I mean, it's not for me, right? I'm here in service of. And so I think it's important to be able to say like, this is a lab, we get to play with things in here, right? Like this is a space where we can kind of throw a lot of stuff out there and see what
fits, right? And so I want to create that, you know, environment where people feel free to do that so that they can take it with them out in the world. But I do think, to your point, just having an accountability buddy or partner is really important. think in a first session with anybody, what I say is that I look at myself in two ways. first and foremost is to support, but second is to challenge.
And I take that job really seriously. And I say, because of that, you know, I invite you and I want you to, you know, tell me if I'm saying something too hard, too fast, too whatever here to say, hey, David, you got to back off, right? Because if we acknowledge what's going on, right? Even in our relationship between the two of us, or when you go out, you know, outside of this office into the world, right? We can deal with pretty much anything. When we don't acknowledge what's going on, we can't do much about it, right?
A lot of it comes back again to kind of bringing things to the forefront. Right? It could be that they've thought about these things before. It's not, it doesn't have to be a new idea. Yes. Right? But it's bringing it to the forefront. It's kind of having a place where we can kind of play with different ideas and thinking about how that impacts them or thinking about how that, you know, kind of impacts other people in their life. Right? And kind of learning to respond versus react.
Speaker 2 (21:03.712)
in the moment to people and opportunities, right? Because a lot of this, whether we are talking about performance, whether we are talking about this from just like a purely like therapeutic clinical standpoint, so much of this, right, is, okay, what is it that you want out of your life, right? How is it that you want to show up in your life to get to where you ultimately want to go? And this becomes an environment to play with different ideas. It could be around a business opportunity. It could be about
you know, kind of the relationship dynamics or interpersonal dynamics of a band, could be, you know, kind of just a life transition, whatever have you. Again, a lot of it is, okay, where do you want to go? And what's getting in the way of that goal?
So in that sense, vision setting, setting of vision, how do you think about vision? Because to me, like I come at vision from a, don't, like to me vision is connected to spirituality of some sort. There's like a spiritual, it's the intangible, you know, almost ideal destination. That's how I think about it, but.
When you're helping somebody understand where they want to go, what they want to do, is it important for the vision to be like an impossible goal? Is it much more tangible? Like how do you think about vision?
So I think there's a number of different elements to it, right? So first off, like, you know, when I think about a vision, it's where do you want to go and how do you want to get there? Okay. But a lot of what we're doing in that vein, right, is really around value setting and value understanding, right? So if you think about values, they're these ongoing processes, right? So you never quite get there, right? But there are these kind of directional things.
Speaker 2 (22:57.198)
that you're kind of constantly moving towards. And we think about those in every aspect of our life, right? It could be in terms of our romantic relationships. It could be in terms of our professional, you know, kind of selves. It could be in terms of, you know, our parent-child relationships. It could be our peer relationships. It could be, you know, kind of you name it, leisure and fun, right? Just like all the different areas of our life. And...
know, kind of what are those ongoing processes that we look towards. When you think about goals, right, and goal setting, it's really important that those goals are in line with your values, right? Because otherwise you could say, I want to climb Mount Everest and you climb Mount Everest and you get to the top and it's really beautiful, but you're left with this almost empty feeling of kind of now what, right? So that goal is, it's really important for it to be a tide to a value.
A great metaphor that Russ Harris out in Australia came up with is essentially, values are like directions on a compass. So you can head west, you can never actually be west. The goals are the things along the way that you check it off from a box. that's oftentimes another way to think about it is, what is the long distant?
kind of vision like you're talking about, right? What is that thing that's out there that we want to get to? And then what is the path that we're kind of carving along the way and those checkpoints to make sure that we're moving in that direction. And that shows up in, I mean, each and everything we do, right? I we are constantly met with these, what we call kind of choice points, right? Of where it's really important to kind of stop and pause and think, okay, am I acting in line with my values here?
And when you do act in line with your values, the result almost doesn't matter. Because you get to lay your head down at night and say, OK, you know what? I feel really good about how I approached whatever the situation was. When we act in ways that are not in line with our values, it might feel good in the immediacy. And then very quickly, we have feelings of regret. Right?
Speaker 2 (25:13.73)
That becomes, again, one of these things that I think about as a guiding principle, whether you want to call it spirituality or something else, of really having to check on ourselves to think about how are we showing up in this world? Are you responding to your wife or your kids or your bandmates in a way that when you truly take a step back, you can say, all right, this is good.
I'm okay with this, right? And the other part of that, right, is that it might mean that we have to deal with conflict. We have to say things that are hard, right? And so the other part of it is like, you know, when I talk to, you know, bandmates or, you know, kind of really anybody, it is recognizing that conflict is going to happen, right? Conflict needs to be a source of opportunity to grow in that moment or that relationship.
Opposed to the conflict feeling like as a threat to you, right? Because if you view conflict as a threat, that's where you get a lot of avoidance, right? And you're not kind of dealing with what's going on. And again, might work in the moment, but it definitely comes home to roost at a later point, right? So not being afraid of conflict, right? Being able to lean in in a more effective way, right? That's another one of those skills that we kind of can talk about here, right? Is how to deal with conflict more appropriately, right? Kind of learning how to
argue or fight in a more effective way because conflict happens, right? It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Yes. But being able to do that and approach those moments in a way that is in line with your values.
Is something about conflict, working through problems together, something I've, this isn't obviously new to me, but something that seems useful is we're gonna put, like we're gonna talk about it right here. This isn't about you, this isn't about me specifically. I'm not calling you out specifically, right? But we're talking about the situation here or the project or the moment that occurred. Is that something, is that,
Speaker 1 (27:23.55)
some framing that you would see is that or how do you kind of
Yeah, so the way that I typically talk about that is a couple different ways. So first off, say to people, especially when there's multiples, right, is I'm not in the business of agreement, I'm in the business of understanding. Right? So we don't have to agree, but it is really important that we understand. Right? And so a lot of times what happens is if you and I are in conflict, right, I'm going to start talking about all the things that you did. Well,
The problem with that is the second I say you, your walls are out, right?
Yeah, I'm starting to think about everything you just
Exactly, right? you're, you're, maybe are quiet and you're listening, but inside of your head, right? You are thinking about all the ways that everything that I'm saying is wrong. Yes. Right? Yes. So that's not effective. And so a lot of it is teaching people how to share what's going on for them. Right? Because if I'm talking about me, right? Now I may say, Hey, you know, when you said X, right? Here's what happened for me.
Speaker 2 (28:34.432)
Right? So I'm not saying you're not a part of it, but when I am talking about me and my experience and how I'm thinking about things and how I'm feeling about things, there isn't really anything for you to get defensive about. Yeah. Right? Because I'm talking about me. I'm not talking about you. So it's helping both people do that. It's, you know, encouraging you, if you're listening to me, to have a big parking lot sitting right behind you where you get to park kind of.
all your internal thoughts and feelings and even questions truthfully, right? Because it's not a matter of like you driving the understanding. The thing is our brains don't know the difference between what's going out and what's coming in. So oftentimes if I'm sharing something to you, right? And you're providing a space where I can do that and maybe you'll mirror or reflect back what is that I'm saying. You may say exactly what it is that I said, but I'm like, you know what, actually that doesn't, that's not quite what I mean.
Right? So it provides an opportunity for both people to gain a deeper understanding of what's going on in that moment. Right? And it also then allows for maybe validation, which at its core is basically saying, you're not crazy. You know, you make sense to me. I understand how you went from here to there. Right? Again, people misconstrue validation for agreement. You're not necessarily agreeing with me. You're just saying after getting a more full understanding of what it is that I'm saying.
that you can see how I got to where I did, right? Which then could lead to more empathy, right? So we then get to do that, we then get to switch, right? Where you get to say, look, I hear all of the things that you said and it makes sense to me based on what you said and here's what's going on for me, right? Because the other thing that I'll tell people and I really do believe in this is that if you validate somebody and you do it,
authentically, right? Which is truly being able to say, look, based on everything that I know about you, right? I do see how you got from here to there. That makes sense to me, right? When we can do that, it pretty much gives us free rein to say whatever the hell we want next. Because they feel seen, they feel heard, right? There's a sense of like, okay, he gets it. And then it's a matter of, I don't have to agree with you. It's not about agreeing. I got you.
Speaker 2 (30:56.78)
it makes sense, here's what happened for me. And so now we get to do the same thing for that person. And so it creates an environment where maybe you're talking about the thing, oftentimes it's not about the thing. It's something going underneath that. So maybe it's a feeling of not feeling valued or not feeling heard or not feeling supported or feeling alone. So it's helping people get to the
the deeper understanding there. Yes. Right? So that the next time that there's conflict, right? I recognize, hey, I can't talk to you that way. Or, you know, if I'm walking past and I don't offer, you know, to kind of help you bring your drum kit, you know, into the van, right? Like where your mind is going. Yes. And in my experience, most people are not crazy.
Yes, it's so fun. I'm thinking of a, the scenario where this guy was saying, you know, I can't get my guitar player to give a shit about the tour coming up. And then as he's explaining how the tour is set up and how the previous tour went with the same guitar player, it occurred to me like, have you asked him about how he likes
to stay at night or how he likes to travel or have you talked to him about like his preference in his routines, in his day-to-day stuff because you're just assuming that he doesn't give a shit about the music or the success of this project. It could just be that he doesn't like riding in the back seat of the car and you always make him ride in the back seat because you never even offered the-
smiling right because like not novel right like you hear something you're like no shit but in that moment right and in that relationship it's like my god never did it yes maybe that maybe there is something going on here right but a lot of that right comes down to perspective taking right and that's another way that you know this this environment can be helpful in that is
Speaker 1 (32:53.932)
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:07.02)
You know, I try to help people with perspective taking and being an outside party certainly helps with that. Right? Yeah. So, but a lot of it is that we get stuck in our own experience. Right? And the story that that person told himself, right, was he doesn't give a shit. Yeah.
I'm out doing all the work, all he has to do is come.
That's right. And the self-importance there, right? I'm doing more than everybody else. We have these stories. mean, this is what our mind does. And so in any relationship, is important to be able to name those stories, call them as such. again, we get to have the conversation. So I don't know where that went, but I would imagine that that guy probably said something similar to what you threw out there.
Right? Yes. Which was like, yeah, look, I mean, I don't feel like I have a voice. Like, you know, you're shuttling me around and pulling me around. And anytime I raise my hand to say something, you just shut me down. Right? And, you know, am I truly a part of this thing or am I not a part of this thing? Right? Yes. And so I think the artists that I see, right, because we're talking about music here, right? Yes. You know, I think the artists that I see that are most successful, particularly the touring ones,
really realize the value that everybody on that tour brings. I don't care what you do for the tour, everybody's got value. And it's realizing that we are people, we're talking about people, and getting out of the self-importance and realizing, hey, I can't do what I'm doing without you. You can't do what you're doing without me. It takes both of us or all of us or however many
Speaker 2 (34:50.444)
right, to get to where we ultimately want to go.
Yes, yes. It's so funny. That's what, that's the, if there was a big lesson from the 25 episodes of the show that I've done, this is the, this is the lesson is that what's called, the podcast is called Everybody Else. it's everybody else. I mean, we all see the artist. Most people think the artist, even on a giant stage, you're like, oh, that's the artist. And that's the band. And, you know, think of about the 150 people that were working 12 hours that day to get the stage set up.
And the drinks sold and the seats cleaned, all the things that can go into a successful event. And you're exactly right. There are artists who come to mind who say thank you. And what's funny is that is the basic, that is the appreciation recognition, that is like the basic currency of a meaningful.
Yeah, look, I it does something, right? mean, even people that are totally intrinsically motivated, right? We still want to be seen, right? I mean, we're constantly searching in all of our relationships, right? Like, do you value me? Are you glad I was born, right? Do you enjoy me? You know, like all of these just like really big questions. right? Am I good enough, right? So, you know, we all have that part of us.
you know, somewhere, some it's a little more accessible than others, right? Or sometimes it's a little more sensitive to it than others. So everybody is different, but, you know, being able to just say, thank you, or I appreciate that, you know, kind of saying, hey, to somebody, right? I mean, it goes a really long way. mean, whether you are, I actually really appreciate hearing all these stories about an artist or an athlete who kind of is going to these arenas, you know, day in and day out. And,
Speaker 2 (36:40.598)
you hear it when they retire, when they leave, where they talk about the security guard. Yeah. Right? And it's like that's awesome to hear, right? Because it's getting in touch with just being a person and being in the moment and recognizing I don't have to have tunnel vision here. Yeah. Right? I can be part of this world around me. I can be open to these experiences and just saying hi. It just says something about that person. It says something about kind of how they approach the world, right?
is meaningful because they're creating these and fostering these relationships.
Speaker 1 (37:15.182)
This episode of the Everybody Else Podcast is brought to you by a true Evansville icon, the Victory Theatre. For over 100 years, the Victory Theatre has stood as a living landmark in the heart of downtown, welcoming generations through its doors for nights of music, laughter, inspiration, and unforgettable performances. From nationally touring artists and legendary comedians to Broadway caliber productions and community favorites.
The Victory continues to be the stage where Southern Indiana gathers to experience something greater than the everyday. The holidays are upon us and the Victory Theater is in full swing. We've got the Evansville Philharmonic with Peppermint Pots in December, followed by The Nutcracker by the Indiana Ballet. Into the new year, we've got Diana Craw, Brad Williams, Tizen, the comedy hypnotist, and in March, we're bringing in Coulter Wall.
in the iconic candle box. Check out all the upcoming shows and events at victorytheatre.com and please support the venues that make our city shine. Thank you to the Victory Theatre and now back to the show.
Speaker 1 (38:29.302)
It's funny, I've worked some big events as a stagehand and there's a couple older people who come to mind who are a part of the touring act who at the end of the night gather all of the local stagehands and will express how much gratitude for everybody showing up and how just at the end of the night how that just elevates everybody. like, hell yeah, we did a good job. All right, let's go home.
mean, look, we are social relational beings, right? And so being a part of a group is really important to us. I we're constantly seeking that out, you know, to some degree. And so I think that's where that camaraderie really goes a long way. And I think particularly for touring musicians who are on the road a lot and kind of have these, you know, atypical schedules, you know, being able to have that sense of
collaboration, cohesion, right, all the things is really important to be able to sustain all of the performances that they have to do on a really long leg.
Switching gears, I want to ask how, you're not from Nashville originally, you're from... Tell me about your journey, if you gave me the short story of getting into this line of work and then the path that leads you to where we're at today.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:43.982)
I'm not. I'm from DC originally.
Speaker 2 (39:57.402)
So I will say first and foremost given that this is a music podcast. I am not musical. My son is my almost eight-year-old is in I think was born with a guitar in his hands Okay, so as he's learning I am I am trying to learn guitar, but that is probably the extent of it. So yeah
I have become to appreciate, we were just talking at dinner last time with some friends about, we were talking about Rick Rubin. And he's like, I just can't believe like Rick Rubin doesn't have any technical skills. And like he's famous for being one of the most influential producers of the last generation and doesn't really play anything, man the controls. It's the interpersonal relationship.
Yeah, so I can speak the language. think I've got some things that can really help and kind of do that. But in terms of my personal musical abilities, they are definitely lacking. But I'm from DC. I had gone to the University of Wisconsin-Madison for undergrad. And then I moved to New York thereafter. And I was getting for grad school and was getting my clinical degree there. And I had worked. And then I was part of a group practice.
in New York where the two founders of that practice were kind of, the practice was built around high performers. So a lot of my kind of clinical caseload up there, right in private practice, could be, you know, a Broadway, you know, kind of performer or, you know, someone in the ballet or...
you know, a singer-songwriter, but it could also be, you know, a hedge fund manager or, you know, a lawyer in big law or, you know, kind of, you know, someone in finance and private equity. So it just kind of worked across industry. And for me, I always kind of knew I wanted to be a therapist and a clinician. That was just something that I was always really attracted to. But I've also really enjoyed business and the energy and so kind of
Speaker 2 (42:04.066)
being a part of that practice really opened my eyes to what was possible. And I just found that so much of the types of people that I enjoyed working with were people that were really high achievers, right? Were really driven, had a sense of kind of where they wanted to get to, had already had some degree of success, but maybe were kind of struggling with those transitions, whether it could be the trans, like,
professional transition or the growth that they're seeing there. It could be like we talked about earlier in terms of understanding the whole person where they're seeing success in one area of their life, but maybe they're struggling in another area of their life. And so, I was just kind of really attracted to that type of person. And I like to think of myself as like a thought partner and kind of someone that can help kind of encourage people to think.
a little bit differently than what they typically do. so kind of having those things to point to because they're in, you know, kind of the mix of these big things was, just really attractive to me. And I thought I could bring a lot of value there.
It keeps it fresh too. Like, because they're high performers, the next time you meet with them, there's a lot to unpack versus if they're not, perhaps we're just dealing with the same
There's a lot to unpack and also because of the high performance and the drive, right? They want to put things into practice, right? So there was a real sense of, not just like, hey, tell me what to do. That's not the stuff I enjoy doing, right? I mean, I can't say that I have the perfect ideas here. I can throw things out and kind of have us play with those a little bit, right?
Speaker 1 (43:30.541)
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:50.082)
but it is ultimately up to you, right, of what you do with that, right? This space is only as successful of the work you do outside of this space. But to have people that would really want to kind of be thoughtful and inquisitive and kind of take these ideas and put it into practice and then come back and try to like kind of mess with that was, it has just always been fun for me. And so, you know, then my wife got pregnant with our first kid and she's from Nashville originally.
She made it known very early on in our relationship that you know, we were gonna end up in Nashville and I was totally okay with that You know, I loved New York. I would not change a minute of it. The energy was just you palpable But I was open to kind of go anywhere and so we had kind of moved here as you know We were preparing to have our first kid and okay It's been great. So I then opened this practice here and you know, you can imagine that with
what Nashville is, you know, there's a lot of people within the music industry and it's not just the artists themselves. I I've worked with producers, I've worked with singer songwriters, I've worked with, you know, kind of touring, you know, kind of performers, I've worked with business managers, I've worked with, you know, people that are kind of agents, right? So you name it. Yeah. Like I've kind of seen that here. And so that's been fun also for me to kind of
have almost a bird's eye view into a specific industry and see all the different parts of it, right? So when I'm talking to a manager, right, those conversations are very different than the conversations I'm having with the artist, right? And they're not necessarily the same pairing of an artist manager, but I get to take those learnings with me certainly and think more about, how are people approaching different situations? And so...
For someone that is not musical, I think I have a good sense of what the music industry can bring. I also think for a lot of people can feel lonely to some degree. so trying to kind of help them think about how they can build a sense of community. I know when we spoke kind of offline, right, something that I had shared with you, right, was that something that I've noticed, particularly here in Nashville, but I think it happens everywhere, is that if you have an artist that is developing and is starting to kind of take off, right,
Speaker 2 (46:11.594)
something that can happen is not feeling like their peer group has potentially been able to kind of keep up with them, right? So maybe they're no longer, you know, kind of having a day job and everybody that they've been playing with still does. And so then what happens is it's like, they still have challenges, right? But it's, you know, who can they go to to kind of talk about those challenges? Because sometimes what is hard for people, right, again, to do that perspective taking is, well, you've made it.
So, you know, I'm still struggling, you know, what are you even talking about? Yeah. Right. So then it's feeling like, you know, they, they're not quite in a newer sense of community or those are not long lasting relationships. And so they don't necessarily want to be vulnerable with that new group, but they don't feel like they can be vulnerable with their old group. Yes. Right. And so it can feel pretty isolating. And so being able to kind of work through that with people I think is really helpful, but
You know, there's a lot of people that are feeling very similarly. They just don't necessarily talk about it or acknowledge it or know who they can share that vulnerability with. And so that's also where this space can kind of be helpful for people is allowing them to kind of process what it is that they're thinking and feeling and kind of in some sense, decide who deserves that vulnerability for them, right? As they're building kind of newer or facilitating older relationships.
Yeah, I could I can totally see to and I've thought about this a lot my my coach has no music business experience And it's actually really valuable because I don't need more right music business Insight or I don't need advice. That's not that's not Yes, that's what I I just need you to help me think about yeah, right like and I think that
Why you're the expert of your industry.
Speaker 1 (47:58.648)
That is something I've been thinking a lot about is that the outsider influence of a coach, of somebody who's supporting you is actually really valuable. It's kind of like having a stressful day. When I was younger, I have a stressful day out in Miami or something. I would call my mom and she would just ask me how things are going. Not from a point plane of like, well, did you try this? Did you do this? Because she doesn't know anything about music. it doesn't matter. She just wants to know how I'm feeling and how I'm working through.
One of my favorite books, it is a children's book, but around this idea is called The Rabbit Listened. And the whole idea of it is that you have this toddler that builds this thing out of blocks and crows come and knock it down. And then throughout the book, right, you have all these different animals that come with ideas and advice in terms of how this toddler should deal with this moment. Right? So...
You know, one says you should yell and get angry. Another says you should knock another one's down, right? Another one says, you know, you should bury your head. That's the ostrich, right? But, you should bury your head in the sand and just pretend like it didn't happen, right? So all the while, right, as all of this series of animals comes up and tries to offer advice, the kid is not in a place to hear it, right? It wants nothing to do with it, so each animal goes away. Well, finally, towards the end of the book, right, this rabbit just...
kind of hops along really quietly, doesn't say anything, and just makes his way to be right up against, you know, the toddler. All the while still not saying anything. And what happens is that the toddler ends up going through all of the things that every animal previously in the book suggested, but he's doing it on his own. And again, all the while, the rabbit's just sitting there listening.
Right? And eventually the kid gets to a place where he says, now I'm going to build something new and it's going to be amazing. Right? So the reason why I love this book is because in my experience, most people don't actually want advice. Even when they come to me, they don't actually want advice because most people are actually really capable. Yes. And they're really resilient. Right? But
Speaker 2 (50:17.506)
they need a place where they can think about these things. And I think so much of what happens is that because when I share with you something that I'm struggling with, you get uncomfortable. And because you're uncomfortable, you then want to come up with all the ways that I need to fix what's going on, not because of me, but because I'm struggling and because you love and care about me, now you're uncomfortable, right? And you want to get rid of your discomfort.
So what happens is the process gets shortchanged, right? You start offering me advice of all the things that I need to do to correct whatever the thing is. And then you're left feeling unsatisfied because here it is that you've said all these things. I'm not really listening to it. I feel like you're not really hearing me and I don't feel like I'm getting what I'm looking for. And so nothing's working in that. Yes. So the rabbit, right, really teaches us this beautiful lesson around just like,
being an active listener and being available and kind of allowing for people to kind of get to what they know, right? Most people know what it is that they need to do. It's how to get there, right? And so providing a space, and I think this is where a coach or a therapist or whoever can really provide that, which is a sense of curiosity, a sense of listening, right? A sense of challenge, certainly, right? And that support, but creating a space where
Like you're going to get to where you need to go and I can help facilitate it, but it's not my job to fix. Right. Now the other part of that is that actually gives me an incredible amount of freedom. Right. Because I think a lot of new coaches or new clinicians, we want to prove ourselves. Right. And so we jump in and so, you know, we want to offer all these things, but that that's, then you're going to feel like you're a failure because you can't fix. Right. It's not a matter of fixing. First off, people aren't broken. Right. So we're not fixing.
But the other part is that if I, and I've learned this over the years, if I can let go of this idea of like, I have to have all the answers, my job is to be curious in here. Then that's an amazing amount of freedom. Because now I get highly valuable and I can throw a lot of ideas out there, a lot of questions out there. I'm okay being wrong. If I say something and it doesn't resonate or it doesn't fit, that's okay. Let's play with that.
Speaker 1 (52:28.01)
valuable.
Speaker 2 (52:42.604)
It allows us to really partner in thinking about what makes sense for you, which is going to be different than the next person that comes into my office.
Yes, it's so funny. I'm like, you want to know an example of this as made apparent by, I would say, most married couples. As if you've had a day of work where you're working through all this stuff and people are in your office, you're giving you all kinds of stuff, and you come home and you want to tell your spouse about it, and then they immediately try to fix it, here comes the next breakdown of...
Same meta, really. We're really good at that.
I yes. I can just, I'm just like replaying some singles at home. well thank you man, this is great. I think this is a great note to wrap on. I appreciate it so much taking time to play on an early Tuesday morning here, so appreciate you squeezing it in.
Thank you. This was great.
Speaker 2 (53:30.67)
Absolutely. Thank you. And it was a pleasure talking to you. And I hope more people kind of recognize the value here. And with me or other people, think having thought partners and people that are kind of outside of your day-to-day that's not the cheerleader, right? That kind of can really be available to kind of help think about things differently is valuable. Hopefully people see that and kind of go from there. But I appreciate you talking to me here. Absolutely.
Alright David, thanks man.
Speaker 1 (54:08.012)
Hey, thank you for listening to the show this week. Visit everybodyelsepodcast.com to learn more about this show, including a list of past guests and previous episodes. You can find me on Instagram at Wes Luttrell, where I post my own work, including activities related to this show. And you can also find the show on Instagram at everybody else podcast. This show is self-produced and hosted by me, Wes Luttrell, with artwork by Ethan Douglas and music by Jim Neuer.
I'm grateful that you spent a little time this week listening to our podcast and learning more about the invisible people of dedicating their lives to making music. We'll be back again soon.
you
Speaker 1 (54:55.342)
Everybody else is a production of the Midwest Music