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Exit-Ed: Stories from Grind to Sale
Join us on Exit-Ed, the podcast where successful founders share the untold stories behind building, scaling, and selling their companies. In each dynamic episode, we go beyond the headlines to explore the challenges, strategies, and pivotal moments that shaped the journeys of entrepreneurs from each corner of the globe.
From the long nights spent grinding to the high-stakes negotiations that led to rewarding exits, our guests provide practical insights, hard-won lessons, and inspiration for anyone on the path to success. Whether you're an entrepreneur preparing for a sale, an investor looking to understand founder dynamics, or a business leader seeking new growth strategies, this podcast is for you.
Learn from those who've been there. Get Exit-Ed.
Gabriella (00:02)
Welcome to Exit-Ed, stories from grind to sale. This is the podcast where we dive into the journeys of founders who have navigated the path from building their companies to successful exits. We interview entrepreneurs from around the US and around the globe, exploring their experiences, scaling processes, and the lessons they've learned. We'll talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly. We're excited to have you with us. Let's get started and let's get excited.
Hey, Tom, how are you doing?
Tom (00:35)
great Gabriela, how are you?
Gabriella (00:36)
Awesome. Awesome. I am so pleased to welcome today. Welcome you, ⁓ Tom, Tom McEwen. We talked a little bit about making sure I say the name right. So I think I got it. Tom, I am so thankful that you're joining us today. ⁓ We met recently and had a quick chat about your background and there were so many things about what you've done and your exit. And I'm like, you have to be on the podcast. So thank you for, thank you for joining. Awesome.
Tom (01:04)
My pleasure.
Gabriella (01:06)
So Tom, you're based here in the Dallas area.
Tom (01:09)
Correct, Plano, just a little north of Dallas. So I've been here over 30 years.
Gabriella (01:15)
Awesome, awesome. And so Tom, ⁓ let's like learning a little bit about the company that you you exited. And I want everybody just to hear a little bit about what industry and then I know you have a very, very rich background in corporate. So I want to make sure everybody can hear and understand that amazing story of transitioning from the corporate world to an exit. And then I know you, you know, you've had some amazing partners along the way.
So what company did you sell?
Tom (01:47)
So my company was Trend Data. We were in the human resource space. We sold people analytics. So basically we used historical data to trend things like turnover, recruiting success, performance success, where we could give companies not only ability to see how things were trending in the past, but using AI technology and everything to forecast into the future. You know, your high performer turnover is going up. What's the reason for it? Should you pay people more? Should you give them more career development?
should you let them work from home and what things would actually tilt the trajectory in the right direction.
Gabriella (02:23)
And so analytics and what year was that?
Tom (02:26)
So that was, we founded the company in 2017. It actually goes back a little further than that. I was with a talent management company here ⁓ based in Richardson HR Smart. And I came along the last three years, that company before it exited. And we'd started building ⁓ an analytics product there. And I had this vision of what I wanted to build. We actually sold the company before we could really get too deep into it.
And ⁓ after we sold the company, I spoke with the founder of that company and he wanted to do another company. And I said, well, you know, that analytics initiative, we were going to write it just for our software. I said, but I think we could build this. We could bring in, you know, unlimited sources of data, regardless of, ⁓ you know, vendor location and stuff like that. so he and I ⁓ co founded this company called Trend Data. We went through a bunch of names, so we found one that wasn't taken. So the idea behind it is
of course, trending data, what direction's going into it. We launched the company in 2017 with me as CEO and co-founder. We ran the company with great growth for probably about three and a half years before we hit COVID and then we kind of flattened out a little bit, but we regained our footing. actually, while looking for a partner,
handle our, we basically had the business, were all the large companies we were taking direct and kind of the mid-market companies, which was a very good fit for it because it was very much an out of the box solution. You didn't have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on professional services. So we needed a low-end partner to be able to sell that part of the business in mass. while I was looking for another partner in 2021 as we were coming out of COVID, kind of looking to go into the next stage of growth.
I ran across this company, iSolve, who ⁓ was looking for an analytic solution. And we kind of first talked partnership, but eventually ⁓ they decided they wanted that product as part of their suite. after four tumultuous months negotiating, we signed on the line in June of 2021. And then I went to work for iSolve for a couple of years to make sure the product. ⁓
successfully integrated into their offering and then help craft the messaging and stuff like that.
Gabriella (04:53)
You're making it sound too easy though, because no company that is built is ever so simple. let me just take a step back. you guys sold, you were working with, I think HR Smart. You guys sold out and then you and the founder of that company, like let's get a new one. How do you like go to your first customer? Like, I'm sure you had to build this software from scratch, obviously with algorithms and analytics.
⁓ cause I guess one of the first questions, one question is how, how did you, like, how does one start literally those first relationships? Like, how do you do that? And the also was analytics newer. mean, cause we're still talking about analytics. is 2025 and everything is about analytics and it seems to be some, know, was that a newer thing in 2017? Was that a growing thing where you guys disruptors in analytics? So we're just kind of riding the wave of analytics that already had started.
Tom (05:50)
Well, we weren't the first in. I kind of joked when we were getting into the market, there was one big company ⁓ bigger than all the others and they still are of the independents called Vizier. And then there were about seven companies that were under five million in revenues. So I would jokingly, ⁓ when I was raising money, go around to the founders and they'd say who is this competition? And I would say, well, it's Vizier and the seven dwarfs.
Gabriella (06:17)
Okay. That's funny.
Tom (06:20)
Yeah, and what was was unaddressed in that market was the mid market. Most of the companies that were investing in analytics, and I think it's still pretty much true today, ⁓ were the larger companies because they were not only buying software, they were throwing resources at it. And what we wanted to do was come up with a solution for a small company to be able to ⁓ put it in, get the data served up to them and make it as easy as possible for them to
click a few keystrokes and get the information they need. We also added a bot capability that could actually tell them what the right moves were. ⁓ But the thing about the HR market where we were selling into, number one, it's a wild, wild west market. It's like ⁓ startups coming up all the time, consolidation coming all the time. But they tend in a lot of senses to be the last of the technology dance.
So analytics had made its way into sales analytics, stock analytics, healthcare analytics and stuff. And HR was still lagging. kind of wildcatted a little bit and went to the area. Fortunately, I had been in HR software for the past 15, 20 years at that point. So we knew where this weakness was. And it also helped that being in that space, myself and my co-founder,
that ⁓ we did have a fair enough amount of contact. So we did and we started the company. We went out to get like 10 or 15 beta clients. so, we made sure to do a lot of ⁓ testing, putting it in front of them and make sure it was something not that they thought was just nice, but something that they would buy and use within their organization. And we pretty much targeted the mid-market. We knew it was a successful offering to the...
large end market, we weren't going to go in and just, you know, be the ninth player in that market. We wanted to hit at least with part of the offering some area that was at least somewhat untapped at that point.
Gabriella (08:22)
Amazing. Amazing. It's always intriguing, right? Especially for, you know, lot of our listeners are people that are building a business or having an idea for a business and entering where there's already some competition, some players, but you know, when you can, the hunger in the market is still there, market underserved. So leveraging, leveraging contacts that you already have, obviously an expertise that you had, right? Coming from the
having that rich background. So tell us more about that rich background, because when you and I met the other day, you were mentioning, and I think you said something like, you know, it's just never too late. And that was honestly, it's so encouraging. So many people. So we were like, you know, I've already, I'm at this stage in life, you know, there's no way I'm building another business or going back. But I think you, you did that. So tell us about, about that transition from the corporate to basically become an entrepreneur and solving a problem, then selling a company.
that solved the problem.
Tom (09:19)
Well, to date myself, I was actually 56 when I started the company. you know, no spring chicken. And ⁓ I kind of had always known that I wanted to start my own company, but it took a long time to get there. was, you know, I got out of college in the mid 80s, went to work for a couple of very large companies. And the first entrepreneur I remember listening to was Ross Perot. OK.
started EDS here in Dallas. I went to a lunch that he was speaking at. I think I got a ticket from someone who wasn't going. I couldn't have afforded it. But you he was a very charismatic individual. someone asked the question that I wanted to ask, which was essentially, what would your advice be to someone starting a company? And it was a, you know, it was very straight, obvious in a lot of sense. But he said, what you need to do is
get into a business and learn it cold. mean, know everything about that business. And then you'll find that there are unmet needs in that business. And then you look at building your offering to hit those unmet needs. So that's why I kind of went the road of staying in business. I stayed in technology and software, but you know, that's many businesses rolled up into one. I would, you know, during my first 30, 25 years or so in the,
Tech, I'd worked for Adobe, Citrix, WebEx, a lot of great technologies, but not one real defined area. Until in 2005, I went to work for my first HR software company. And ⁓ I started with that one. We sold that company. I was the COO. I went to HR Smart with Mon and we sold that company. I was general manager. So I'd gotten to know the HR space.
And really, I got to know it well enough to know that there's an area that's missing here. And it's not an area where I would have to totally invent it. It was one where if I could make it a little bit easier for this segment of the market, I could move it forward. we started the company in 2017. And it was a way we didn't rock it out of the gates.
Gabriella (11:37)
Okay. how would, how would, tell me more about that? Because one of the issues like with the startup world or the new company world is you're going with all the motivation and all the incentives. And then, you know, it's just flatlining for some time or maybe, you know, not how, how was, how would, tell me more about the process. I know you said you had some contacts, so, know, at least some leads to begin with.
Tom (12:01)
Yeah, so we got a few ⁓ mid-sized customers right out of the gates of people. know that we had about four or five. ⁓ But ⁓ when we went out to our mass marketing, we figured these people loved it. ⁓ We offered a free trial. We figured that would bring in leads by the boatload, but it didn't. Basically, ⁓ people value what they pay for. And when we offered it as a
Gabriella (12:23)
Okay.
Tom (12:28)
just an initial free trial, nobody bid on it. We still continue to offer the free trial when we're in the process. So basically if we got a prospect in line, they really liked it, but they still weren't sure. We'd say, we'll give it to you for a week for free. And when they were down the road like that, was, and particularly not giving them like a month, you you give them a short period of time where they have to go in and use it. And that was an effective tool, not for,
initial marketing but for moving people from ⁓ interested to sale. the success was exponential. It's like one plus one equals two, two plus two equals eight. Once you start getting, But we ⁓ had a few bumps along the way. ⁓ I did have to suffer some turnover because ⁓ we still hadn't gotten to the point where we could offer healthcare to people. That's a big...
I lost a great VP of sales, lost lot of marketing people. But we kept growing the business, we sweated every, I say it was a bucket of blood for every one that we got. But we had mounted some pretty good revenue and then we had hit late 2019 and two things happened that flatlined us a little bit.
Number one was the partner we had on the low end who was selling a lot of our low end business was ADP. We were in their marketplace and just being in there, I think we were the first analytics company in there. We sold a fair amount in there. But then among other things, they opened it up to other analytics, but then they came out with their own analytics product.
Gabriella (14:15)
Wow, I can imagine that would upset a fair number of people. I mean, how upsetting is that?
Tom (14:22)
Well, the people we had were pretty, they liked the product, they were using it, the integration inside the ADP marketplace was great. Once we got in there, we did the integration and people bought ADP, they just push one button and then the data would flow through. So it was a great technology and it was great boost for our company. Then when they moved, ⁓
You know, they, you know, we didn't lose a lot of clients, but we didn't gain any more through ADP. was pretty much, you know, they were, they started buying the ADP analytics product. And then, and then late 2019 into 2020, we had COVID.
Gabriella (15:04)
How was that? So, wow, that's almost like a one downer after the year.
Tom (15:08)
Yeah,
my stomach was still hurting and then I got hit in the face. Yeah.
Gabriella (15:14)
Right. So what was COVID like for you guys? I mean, people were working from home. People weren't working. Everything stopped. I remember those three weeks in 2020, I think in March, where literally everybody stay in place. Don't leave your house. I don't remember that. Even here in Texas, where we actually had it pretty good compared to so many other places. Still, we had those three weeks of like, don't move.
Tom (15:39)
Yeah, and even at that point, you've got employees who you can't tell them to go into the office or thing. And the thing about COVID, we know a lot now that we didn't know then. you had to err on the side of cautiousness. But all corporate budget just froze. Nobody knew what the problem was. ⁓ it was tough for all companies, but particularly ⁓
you smaller companies fortunately we was a recurring we had a recurring revenue model so we had revenue coming in we just didn't grow it and we had and we were just going out for a seed funding round we had an angel funding round which started us and we going out for a seed round and we had we had some pretty good success and then yeah it was like ⁓ no and then even a couple of commitments we had pulled back afterwards so
So I had to let go of some people and we pretty much bare boned it almost down to just technology, developers, part-time marketing and a couple of part-time salespeople. then also we didn't have anyone selling to that low end part of the business, which was about half and half. had 50-50 or large, we'd have like 10, 15 companies.
on the high end and about 100 on the low end and they did about the same, but we lost that whole low end prospecting. ⁓
Gabriella (17:05)
Was that because they were they stopped you they stopped like it was a budget issue or.
Tom (17:11)
Was it? Well, basically, the low end business went away because ADP went away. was. Yeah. But I think even even they and a lot of others just weren't selling anything during that time period. And ⁓ most of our larger clients, you know, they stayed with us. But any ones that were in the pipeline were like, hold on, we don't know what this is. This is going to come to. And that lasted a good nine months, I'd say. I mean, probably from December of.
Gabriella (17:16)
Okay, okay, okay.
Tom (17:39)
2019 through almost fall of the next year. And then I think people started sneaking back out of their houses finding they weren't dying. And we started to get our larger deals. So we got a few larger deals towards the end of 2020, which kind of helped the numbers. We probably lost more clients than we gained, but the ones we lost were smaller ones. So our revenue went up, but our number of clients went down a little.
Then we went into 2021 on a pretty good upswing, but we had burned through a lot of money in 2020. We were definitely looking out to raise money. We were wooing back in some of our angel investors and a few others. Then I came across a partner which didn't
necessarily look like as good a partner as they turned out to be. So, ⁓ iSolve actually reached out to me and was interested, and they used the word partnership, and I barely heard of them because they're on a low, low end of the marketplace. They're a payroll company in HR, great in their space, their ⁓ average customer size, I think, was below 100. They have so many customers. But what they were saying is they were building up ⁓
you know, a high end business to go after, you know, to be out there with UKG and Workday and all those. so, ⁓ so I was I was on board, it was there was great chemistry between their people and our people. But ⁓ we, you know, it's like, we went through the financial due diligence in a week, the technical due diligence in a week, and then the legal took them three and half months. It was just
Gabriella (19:29)
And that, but that was, that's for the exit, right? Like, yeah. Yeah.
Tom (19:35)
I skipped over the part that you know eventually they wanted to buy us rather than become a partner.
Gabriella (19:41)
Interesting. yeah, I mean, that's something again, ⁓ with legal due diligence, most people don't know what they don't know. But the truth, you know, we always tell the people that we work with is, you know, there's going to be an army. Once your exit is of a sufficient size, your buyer will hire a law firm to handle it. Then the process is honestly, can very easily, you know, out of your, it's out of your hands and in literally the law, the buyer's lawyer's hands.
And what we are always trying to teach is you got to be ready for those strangers. call them the strangers that you don't even know. They are going to tell you what your company's worth. And cause your valuation gave me beautiful. You have the best customers, but if you don't pass legal, the diligence you're dead in the water. Uh, and that could mean your deals not not going to happen or you're selling for a discount, big discount that, you know, it can get really nasty.
So yeah, I always chuckle a little bit when people like, yeah, it was all good until the lawyers got involved. And for me, there are so many ways to remediate that. you know, that's not a podcast about that. It's all about your exits. So that's amazing. So I do want to go back to COVID. What year did you guys sell?
Tom (20:57)
We sold in June of 2021.
Gabriella (21:00)
So that's right after COVID. you, I feel like, it, did you sell? Were you guys were like, ⁓ we got to what the valuation we wanted, or was it an opportunity where you guys look into sale or did it come to you?
Tom (21:14)
They came to us, ⁓ I'd say we weren't looking not to sell. It was always like, you're always for sale until offer comes along. I'd probably say a little of it was a ⁓ little exhaustion from COVID and all that. And when they came up with this good offer, ⁓ I had been running through all that. I was looking at, again, I was gonna have to raise money to go further.
I was going to have to rehire again people that I let go. then the thought of doing this and possibly taking the money and doing something else. But they wanted me to go work for them for a couple of years. I think part of it was that and part of it, ⁓ the product and the richness of the technology of the product, I felt like we were not giving it all its best because we didn't have the resources. The idea of getting ⁓
a you know, a development budget of a couple of million dollars behind me and really being able to take the product where I really wanted to take it, that was appealing as well. So, ⁓ you all those factors combined together. And like I said, there was a good chemistry between ⁓ us and the company that acquired us and they really wanted to highlight this product to get them to that.
you next phase where they wanted to go further upstream. it was a good exit. We were happy with it.
Gabriella (22:40)
Yeah. So going back to that conversation, that chat with the presentation with Ross Perot, where he's like, did your mind ever go back to that moment where you thought, well, maybe I came in entrepreneur and then here you are. Cause you know, with the exits, we always see that moment when the wires hit and it's like these big parting moments. Sometimes we were on the call when we do it with our clients and we have a little wine or whatever.
Did you have that moment of like, my gosh, it was so good and worth it. I'm sure you did. want to put.
Tom (23:12)
yeah, was definitely worth it at the end. I'd say it was more like a giant exhale. First off, during that whole diligence, it was nasty and I was taken away from the business a lot. The idea of taking that much time away and then having it fall through and then going back and running the business. ⁓
Gabriella (23:25)
That's nasty, I should say.
Tom (23:41)
I guess it was ⁓ official to me. I always learned very early on that a deal is done when money changes hands.
Gabriella (23:49)
That's
when the deal is done. The deal is not done until the moment of anything can happen.
Tom (23:55)
So
as soon as soon as the money started coming through, then I was like.
Gabriella (23:59)
Good. Okay. It's actually happening. Did you have that moment? I go, this is real. Cause so many of the people we work with are like, this isn't, they don't think it's real. It's like pinch me, pinch me because there's no way this is happening. ⁓
Tom (24:12)
I had been through a couple others, but I wasn't like the number one guy. was like I said, the CEO and general manager at a couple. So it ⁓ was as ⁓ traumatizing, but really the one thing is when you have shareholders, you're happy that you got something for them and that just that you're going to continue to play.
The fact that I think that I think that I saw is going to go on for a long time and that our product is wedged in there that there's a little bit of immortality in there just knowing that your product is going to be there beyond you. that's really what you want as an entrepreneur is not to you be the critical thing to the product that it can run.
Gabriella (24:59)
That's so true. ⁓ Since you, guess, since you, you, guess I can say, you're extremely experienced in the, in the sale process because you've gone through three, right? Three. So if you had some advice for founders on how to get ready, what would your advice be?
Tom (25:19)
First of all, have all your documentation in a row. There's a list of things that everybody who goes through an acquisition knows that they're going to have to have. So have that pristine, have it all in one place where you can get to it. Two, make sure everybody who has a voice in the deal is on board. We had a little spout between shareholders and owners and stuff.
It was all stuff that we could iron out but it was it was like a family squabble until we were all Yeah. Yeah, so you want to make sure? That you know, you've got that you've got that all going Look for carve outs because that's one thing, you know, they they give you a letter of intent which has a Number on it. That's nice. No when you finally get the deal. It's like, okay Well, we want an earn out of 70 % You know, we're gonna keep this aside till we make sure that you know you guys own the
And you're down, you got to be, no, no, we own it, we'll sign it. It'll do what it says, but ⁓ they'll try and give you a lot of earn outs and it'll take away from the deal. you got to be willing and ready to push back, push back against.
Gabriella (26:30)
Yeah,
learn to say no.
Tom (26:32)
Yeah, and do be willing to walk away ⁓ if that's the case. Also, often there's a lot of things around indemnification and stuff like that, that anytime if you think that ⁓ you're afraid of something's going to come back and bite you with a punitive after the deal and everything, it really does. It hasn't in any of the deals. But there's always some kind of insurance out there.
Gabriella (26:59)
Yeah. Hey guys, I want to take a minute here and talk to you about for a second about the company X-Ray. Bottom line, if you want to sell your business in the next few years, there are two things that you're going to need to know. You're going to need to know the financials and you're also going to need to know the legal side. Why? When you go to sell a company, there will be a lawyer on the other side and there will be financial people on the other side.
And usually once you're on the table, the financial stuff has been figured out. They give you a purchase price. They just need to verify. But the lawyers for the buyers are going to scrutinize your company in a process called due diligence. And we've seen so many people not be ready for the due diligence and turn these &A situations into horrible ⁓ stress and emotional roller coaster stories. And for that, we have created the solution, which is
called the company X-Ray. Check it out at the company X-Ray.com. We basically do a legal audit. It's just one click for us. That's all it takes. You give us your data. We analyze it and then we give you a report and we tell you how exit ready your company is from a legal perspective. Because if you're not, not only is your &A gonna turn into a roller coaster, but your purchase price might be cut and your purchase sale agreement might look really, really, really against you because
the buyer found things and the abilities they don't like. So be ahead of the game, check out the companyxray.com and reach out. We'll be happy to help you.
Tom (28:31)
you
Gabriella (28:32)
Yeah, I think you hit them all. And that's the thing. It kind of comes down to a document that's called the sale agreement, the purchase agreement and that document. I mean, it's just how it is. It's a buyer's lawyer thing and it turns into a game of these and tug of war, these for that and that for that. And I think in my view, like kind of like you said, the cleaner you come in, the cleaner your deal will be. And so that's so important.
Tom (29:01)
And another thing is if you're going to go with the company that buys you, you have to go into it with the mindset that they are buying you. I think all the founders go into it, and then they're six months to a year with a new company and they're telling them, you can't do this thing with my product. it's no, no, it's not your product.
Gabriella (29:19)
about
your product anymore. It's ours. Yeah. Those transitions are important. People don't think about the integration of the business, the transition plans, like consider you're going to be working for your buyer. I would say in most cases you are because you need to transition what the operation is into what it will become in somebody else's hands. So it's shocking. Most people, you know, obviously you came with some experience, most of
Most founders, I would say don't, they've never sold a company. They know how to build a company. know their customer, they know their product, they know their numbers. But to me, the &A process is a life-changing event and it's a full-time job. It is a full-time job almost for the main people involved in it. And so you need to be able to have the mental endurance. Like you said, ⁓ I think you put it traumatized. It's a traumatizing event and it should have...
I don't think it has to be, I think, you know, oftentimes it will be, but yeah, it's intense, very intense.
Tom (30:21)
And all the three of the ones that I was involved with, including my own at the end, broke down at some point. it always seemed to have broken down over a point that this could happen afterwards. Yeah, fear of, you know, this is going to happen and then they're going to not pay or this is going to happen and they're going to sue. it never does.
Gabriella (30:36)
Like beer?
It doesn't. It's really, it really, sometimes it's, it's unfounded fear. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's just, just do the deal.
Tom (30:55)
Yeah, was in the middle on a couple of mine. like, I can't believe we're spending so much time on this. I know this is not going to happen.
Gabriella (31:02)
Yeah, it's almost like, yeah, anyway, it's like, you know, let's use our imagination and think how many things could happen, but really what are the chances, especially for a product like a software product. I mean, if your product is safe, if it's not going to leak information, if it's not going to violate probably like consumers rights or privacy rights, I mean, what could go wrong with an analytics? An HR is like one of the most benign industries that I know.
Tom (31:31)
Right, and the information we put in there is not PII. We're not putting social. ⁓
Gabriella (31:37)
Exactly. Thinking through those details can give you that peace of mind. The other side will always come up with a nuclear scenario. you're like, the reality is we're just giving analytics. What could go wrong? The algorithm goes off and gives the wrong analytics. mean, nobody's going to die. Nobody's going to lose millions over, I don't know. That's so interesting. So amazing how you've gone through
the corporate world and then these sales and then this last sale where you were intimately involved basically as an equity owner. And now what have you been doing between June of 21, I think you said, and the present where in September of 25 as of today.
Tom (32:21)
So I left I solved in the spring of 2024. I had a couple of things I wanted to do. I wanted to stay involved in the industry a little bit, but I did after the two and then particularly after mine, I wasn't of a mind that I wanted to start up another company. ⁓
Gabriella (32:43)
One is enough and three accents are enough.
Tom (32:46)
Yeah, exactly. ⁓ But so what I've been doing is I've been advising, I think about three or four companies I'm advising right now on, you know, startup stuff. and ⁓ I think two of them are in HR and one is one is one is not. But so I work on advisory boards. do that. ⁓ I have a couple of things I'm working on non technology. I think I told you I published a book last year. Yes.
Gabriella (33:14)
Let's talk about the book. have actually the book right here. We're gracious in to, you know, gave me the book and it's a beautiful dedication. Thank you so much. I haven't obviously read it yet because we just met a couple of days ago. But so tell about the book.
Tom (33:18)
Yeah
Yeah, so I do want to disappoint you. It's not a book about business or anything. It's a passion project I've had for, you know, half a century. in ⁓ mid ⁓ 1970s, I lived, I grew up in ⁓ a small town, Babylon, Long Island, and I played basketball in high, junior high school and high school. Was not a standout star or anything, but I was in, I played and I played varsity. But when I was at my junior high in eighth grade,
They never had a state open state championship in New York, but for the first time, there were two counties on Long Island and they were going to play each other for the Long Island championship. And my high school had a very good team that year, a really visionary coach. But we were one of the bottom 20 % as far as size. And we'd never gone past the first round in the playoffs because it was an open tournament. It wasn't divided up by size. So, you know, we'd play a school like
five times as large as in the first round. But this year we felt we had a pretty good team. And I was on the junior high team, but it was a small school, so the junior high was in the same building as the senior high. So I got to see all the guys, they were the guys that we looked up to and everything. And ⁓ kind of what I detail in the book is, you know, similar to like Hoosiers and Friday Night Lights is how, you know, the team kept winning, overcame a few bunch of obstacles, but then got into the point where the momentum really started ⁓
rolling as they started beating bigger and tougher schools that were supposed to finish ahead of us. ⁓ And in between the basketball games, I talk a lot about ⁓ what it was like for me growing up on Long Island. I came from a, I'd say mid-size Irish Catholic family of four kids, dog. We lived in the village. Both my parents were teachers. ⁓ I ran around with a bunch of good kids who were my age and the town was very small. It probably four miles, caddy quarter, one end to other.
but it was all about basketball in the winter. ⁓ And so I talk about, and going to school and everything. one thing, ⁓ my coaches were very surprised to find out that there was a lot of partying going on in city. Everybody had a party every weekend and kind of the downside I talk about being in a seventh and eighth grade and you're in the same school as ⁓ seniors and juniors in high school. You find out about a lot of parties that you shouldn't be going to where there's beer drinking.
marijuana smoking. Thank God there was was no phone tracking back then. Our parents didn't know where we were. Right out and we'll be home at 10 o'clock or whatever.
Gabriella (36:00)
Okay?
Yeah. Different world, right? with no phones. mean, that's so different. No computers.
Tom (36:15)
No, no computers even.
Three TV stations, CBS, ABC, and NBC.
Gabriella (36:22)
Different world. think we could have, somebody should make a podcast about what was the world like before the internet and the iPhone. mean, it's almost, it seems so ancient. mean, I was born in 81 and we still, all that stuff was still not there. So I'm that transition generation that we were born, you know, in analog world, I guess. I don't know if that's the proper world, but you know, like not necessarily with screens everywhere. And then I remember my brother playing Atari, you know,
that stuff and then fast forward to these insane computers that we carry in our hands. And anyway, I'm sidetracking. I want to go back to the title of your book is This is Panther Country, a memoir of youth, underdog spirit and basketball glory. I'm all about the underdog because I've always considered myself, you know, underdog as an immigrant that came here at age 19 and just like.
from having an accent to all these other things. I've always been the underdog, kind of like looking for air and a breather, getting from underwater and swimming my way, finding the boats and then the ships to ride on and to put it in that context. What is the underdog spirit that you discuss here? Because I would love to learn more about that. And of course, I'm going to read it, but I'm very curious just by the title.
Tom (37:45)
Well, specifically from the standpoint that on Long Island there were about 130 schools, so it was pretty packed and it was an open tournament. Like I said, were some graduating class at Babylon was about 125 people and in the same county we had schools that had a thousand fifteen hundred people, yes, we had to play those schools and generally we, you know, there were eight leagues in Suffolk County, probably a similar in Nassau County.
and were broken up somewhat by size. So you could win your league if you were in the five, six or seven. But as soon as you got into the playoffs, you'd play a big team and get kicked out of you. But there are a lot of things different about basketball back then. First of all, there was no shot clock. you could hold the ball forever if you wanted to. OK, there was no three point line. Wow. Yeah. So I always joke.
Gabriella (38:39)
changed. The rules of the game have changed.
Tom (38:43)
Okay. And, you know, the coach developed a really innovative offense back then, and he, you know, was able to neutralize, you know, bigger, faster teams moving through it. And we also had, you know, a couple of ones. We had a once in a generation player, this guy, Glenn Vickers, that I talk about in the book. You know, he played Divisional basketball at Iona for Jim Valvano. Yeah, a guy like that comes along once in a while. And combined with the fact that
He probably had the best supporting cast that someone has ever had. So we had the right team, the right coach, the right time. But back in 1975, there was two professional basketball teams in New York. We had the New York Knicks who played in Madison Square Garden. And then we had the New York Nets who played out on Long Island in the Nassau Coliseum, which was only two years open at that time. And up until that point, the county championships were maybe played at a
a junior college auditorium or something. That year, it was gonna be played at the Nassau Coliseum. The Nassau County and the Suffolk County Championships played Friday night, then Sunday night there was a championship game. So it was a real little bit more of a Hollywood glitz than that particular tournament it had that time. both games, our county championship and the Long Island Championship were double header games with the Nets who had Dr. J. Julius.
So, know, so we all got free tickets to those or at least a very inexpensive ticket. So it was like, you know, the idea of these guys were going to be playing on the same court, you know, was a was big thing. nobody thought ⁓ that the Suffolk County teams could beat the Nassau County teams because Nassau was almost part of New York City. had like, you know, really, they thought everybody on Suffolk County was a bunch of farmers.
Because it was actually pretty rural back then, more so than you would think. The Hamptons was not the Hamptons you think about today with all the glitz and everything. There was farms up there. They had nice seashore, it wasn't Billy Joel and everybody living out there. ⁓ So the fact that ⁓ the small school Babylon was able to compete for the county championship, then the Long Island championship was ⁓
You know, it was very disinct and it kind of embodied the whole community. You know, I talk about how the families, I, you know, I, you know, I had a very close family and I'm all my friends had close families. And every time you're over somebody else's house, their mother was like your mother. was like, was a really great. And yeah. And we, and, and it was a interracial team, which, you know, 75 is what 10 years after the civil rights.
Gabriella (41:17)
other time.
Tom (41:28)
But, you know, we kind of had it right in Babylon in that everybody kind of hung out with each other. But kind of, you still had zoning things back then. Our eastern border of Babylon Village was a high school at West Islip. They were all white. And then on one of our other borders, had Wyandance, which was all black. So it was, Babylon was like, you 80 % white, maybe 15 to 20 % black and Hispanic. So it was a
But you know, we all hung out together and it didn't seem to matter.
Gabriella (42:03)
I mean, that's because we're all human. mean, you know, and then you have these constructed societal constructs that, you know, deviate from that true humanity that we're just all brothers and sisters. We all trace back somewhere, you know, in my belief. I think yours is the same is creation. You know, believe that, you know, God created and it wasn't necessarily Big Bang. suddenly, you know, so, so, yeah, no, that's so beautiful. That's such a rich story. I can't wait to
To read the, the book, ⁓ was saying country, but I read the book because, ⁓ I have a, know, I think I shared my personal connection with basketball. have a couple of cousins. So, yeah, so they played for, I think then I'm pretty sure the national team of Bolivia. I have a part side of my family traces back to that. And so very proud that, ⁓ they actually, you know, and my grandfather was a pro as well in Bolivia. So.
Tom (42:43)
Yeah, you did,
Gabriella (43:01)
And this would have been probably in the forties at this point. so that it's a sport that is just close to us. ⁓ and of course I mentioned that from Argentina. So we do have a big tradition in our soccer. Yeah. But we have, we have lots of basketball. have a few famous ones. So I can relate. I played it a little bit in high school, but I, you know, it wasn't our sport. I'm more of a tennis player. That's amazing. ⁓ I really love your story. So, so rich. And I wanted to talk a little bit about.
you know, sports and business is there, you know, in my case, ⁓ I think there is, I remember when I was interviewing for my first law firm jobs, ⁓ you know, the big law firm, you know, kind of like a Wall Street and they feel, and I remember, you know, why, know, what do you think prepared you for, for these jobs or for these career? I'm like playing tennis, like immediately that singularity of, of saying, you know, I've eaten matches when I was whatever year, so 10, 12.
I would go in and play these matches and, you know, tackle difficult situations and play the point and do this and do that. Cause I used to compete when I was very young. And so do you ever relate your reach background in basketball with like entrepreneurship or growing a business or a team player? mean, there's so much in my view that you can learn from and play in the sport.
Tom (44:23)
Well, first of all, I don't think ⁓ a lot of people experience momentary pressure like athletes do. I mean, the idea of like, you know, tennis, you know, serving when you're down a point at match point or basketball, you're on the foul line with two shots and you're losing by one with three seconds left in the game. Or even, you know, I just talk about things, you know, you're in a fast break and you're up and you're all by yourself in a ⁓ packed gym. You don't want to miss that late. ⁓
Little things like that, that you experience pressure that I think prepares you for things in life. For example, that you have an important job interview, an important sales call. You don't blow it off in your mind and say, well, there'll be none of this happening. Five important minutes, I need to make sure I'm on my game and I'm doing this right. And that's one that really, really comes out. The other one is the idea of just putting all in at the right time.
You it's like you, you know, this is the time to full court press. This is the time to make sure your guy doesn't get the ball. ⁓ And the value of, you know, teammates, you know, just being able to socially interact and depend on one guy to watch out for you and to watch out for him are all just important things that you bring forward into life and into business, which helps out a lot.
Gabriella (45:43)
Yeah. I mean, because in business, you're in competition, in your competition with somebody at some point. Um, and in, in this, in sports, it's constantly competing, even in competing against yourself, you know, even in a training session, you're like playing to see if you can play better or do that shot better than you did last week or, you know, perfect, uh, a piece of your technique that, that is not quite there. I've always felt like.
My tennis experience has has definitely influenced. Probably that is the pressure. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Super. Well, so before we close, I wanted to go back a little bit to the technical side in the in the algorithms and the analytics, because obviously the big elephant in the room, right, when you're talking about analytics is now AI inside.
in their different technology languages, you know, how AI analyzes or how an algorithm would analyze back before AI was a thing, which I'm still trying to figure out how AI just showed up one day, but obviously it was being built. was when ChatGPT came out, he's like, now we have AI. I still try to figure out how many years that took. ⁓ And then one day AI was here. I still want to know how that happened, but.
Tom (47:05)
Well,
it seems it's a lot with technology because a lot of it is developed in research labs and universities that don't make it commercially out for a long time. Like think of the Internet. What did they develop that 1869? I forget when it was. Yeah. All of a sudden, I remember in even ingested in the early 90s, the realization that I could send an email to someone outside my company. So before that, you know, email was around, but it was within your own walls.
Gabriella (47:28)
That's great.
Yeah. You know, have these, I had these thoughts yesterday. It's like, I need to take a day off from AI. Like I use it so much and I'm like, when is the last day when I didn't use it, even in a Sunday or Saturday, even if I'm asking what, know, we have some bugs in our plants right now. I'm like, what is this bug? What, or just thinking ideas and bouncing ideas. There's not a single day probably for the last year that I haven't used it. It's kind of sad, but I'm trying to take a sabbatical from AI soon. But my question is.
So what's the future? mean, as somebody who has seen the evolution of software, who's been building companies, exited companies, and again, the great last one was the one that you built with your own sweat, tear, and blood, and then you did your ex and it needs software. What is going to happen with AI? And these are very broad open-ended. I don't know. What the hell is going on?
Tom (48:30)
Well, I think the mistake would be to say it's going to be this, like this one area. It's permeated so many different parts of your life. And just think of, it was only about 10 years ago where ⁓ Yahoo used to just be like a newspaper. They'd print out stories, and everybody got the same stories. Now you're getting stories filtered on your own needs or your own searches and everything.
So you don't even know that that's kind of taking place until you suddenly realize, you know, you're a Democrat. I'm only reading Democratic stuff. I'm only reading Republican stuff like that. And then in, you know, things like, you know, know, in health care, which, you know, I still contend and I agree with, I forget who said it, that we probably still only know about 15 % of what makes a human body tick. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of it's in our own immunities.
the fact that AI might be able to unleash a lot of that stuff. ⁓ But then there's the flip side of that. We're going have people living longer, more people, and then we're going have to figure a way to feed them.
Gabriella (49:39)
That's
crazy. That's crazy. ⁓ and then the other, the other trigger word is the quantum computer, which I only know how to say that word. I really know very little about it, but extremely curious about that AI and quantum I've read and I'm dangerous enough to be very dangerous. Maybe I'll mess up something, but I, you know, I listened to some of the, the, mainstream podcasts, you know, some of the guys out there interviewing really high profile people and these quantum AI race and
Is quantum gonna be able to decipher certain things, even in Bitcoin and all these things? It just seems to me like, it's like the cat's out of the bag and there's this like whatever situation that could happen. Or that could be like a far thought is like this nuclear situation thought that what could possibly happen. But seriously, mean, AI can answer so many things and the people that do quantum are...
talking about the things that being how many years away are we from quantum doing certain things and it's a little scary like.
Tom (50:40)
I'll tell you what kind of one of the things that we first broached with my company, but what limited it was, you need data. Like I always said, these analytics engines are like just great white sharks. eat everything they can and they just eat data and it makes the predictions and the valuations richer. And the big problem we had when I was starting my company and moving forward was getting access to enough data.
So, know, once while we try and get three to five years worth of historical data, we try to get data from multiple systems. But even then it was still all structured. So you could look at, you know, here's based on the history of what happened a year ago, it's going to happen again. But then you had to bring in things like, OK, well, the economy is not the same as it was a year ago. ⁓ We didn't have COVID, you know, that blew it. You know, so it's like, but now what you're finding is.
all of these engines for whatever part of AI are getting the data they need to ⁓ learn just everything. So the idea is like, not only are they gonna be doing what we want them to do, when are they gonna start gaining their own consciousness and operating, ⁓ you know, almost independent of us, you know? Yeah. It's scary movie.
Gabriella (51:55)
It's very scary when I use AI. The one thing I find is I ask a question and it's not asking me questions back to understand more about the context or more about, think Claude AI is better at it. As of today, September 11, 2025 GPT-5 is just answering and not asking the assumption and not asking more about the context. From that sense, I'm like, it's still far.
However, his answers are just, or her, whatever its answers are becoming just very thorough complex. Sometimes making assumptions that a human thinking wouldn't or would ask a smart human, would it be like, what, what is it a B or C or is it a combination of B and C or are you thinking about D, you know, things like that? I think, but if you think about where we were, what two years ago, when this came out to today, it's insane.
Tom (52:52)
I remember my son showing me that and I like, you know, I wrote a book all on my own, but I wonder if I had typed a few words into jet.
Gabriella (53:02)
Yeah, you just say, hey, talk about giving it here's the points.
Tom (53:05)
Here's a couple of facts. Yeah, go ahead.
Gabriella (53:08)
Right. think it could. mean, unfortunately, unfortunately, I think because, you know, it's going to I don't know if it's going to kill creativity. I don't know what it's going to do to all of us. But but I was very intrigued to know what a person with such rich background in software as you and having seen the evolution, you know, we think about all that.
Tom (53:27)
All I can say is ⁓ every time there's been a technology to be feared, it's ended up opening up more than it closed down. And I can even go back to the Industrial Revolution, going from the information age, the internet and things like that. You think, okay, newspapers, big stores, everything's going to shut down.
these other outlets pop up to replace them, Amazon and all those things like that. ⁓ I can only rely on my faith that ⁓ technology always seems to create more than it shuts down.
Gabriella (54:07)
That is what I hear from also saying, know, the big tech guys today, I follow and listen quite often and that seems to be the consensus. And hopefully it is, and hopefully people won't be displaced and actually re-armed with new tools and new skills and all of that to continue to make humanity one step better, better than it was yesterday. As long as we're moving to that direction, I think we'll be fine.
Tom (54:34)
Yeah, but as always, the people who can adapt are the ones who succeed.
Gabriella (54:38)
Yeah. Amazing. ⁓ Tom, I've enjoyed so, much talking to you.
Tom (54:45)
Very much glad to know you're a neighbor, you're not too far away.
Gabriella (54:48)
No,
we are probably about no more than 15 minutes from each other. I think you have an amazing background. I've interviewed so many people, but you have that reach, pre-entrepreneur history that to me is very unique and inspiring because it can be so easy. Even as I was sharing, we're doing some shifts in the organizations that we run and I'm like,
You know, go again and reset again and restructure again and remarketing and rename a rebrand. but you know, the truth is it's life is always evolving. And I think you just need to learn. mean, one thing I'm learning from you is adapt to your time, you know, life.
Tom (55:32)
He worked to be pivot, you know, it's like.
Gabriella (55:35)
No when to pivot. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Tom. I have really, really loved talking to you.
Tom (55:42)
same and look forward to continuing dialogue. Thank you.
Gabriella (55:46)
Absolutely. Thank you.
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