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Welcome to an aviation podcast that caters to all aviation enthusiasts, ranging from pilots to airplane spotters. Our show covers a wide range of topics, including private pilot training, airline operations, and the latest aviation news. Our knowledgeable host, an experienced airline pilot with eight years of flying under his belt, is thrilled to share his own experiences and offer valuable advice to help you pursue your aviation dreams. We are here to support you on your journey, constantly wishing you Tailwinds & Sunshine!
Welcome back everybody to episode 2. This is a 3 part series, the conversation I have with my friend, Patrick, who is an air traffic controller in Salt Lake City. He works, for Salt Lake TRACON. He has been doing this for 18 plus years, a true professional, textbook definition of what a professional is. He's also very passionate about his work which makes him that kind of as a definition of being a professional.
Manny:He is also an avid photographer and a strong supporter of the aviation community. He's befriended he's befriended a lot of pilots and aviation enthusiasts and on his page. You can find his work at, in Instagram on his name in there is radar contact, r a d r contact. And last but not least, I'd like to give a huge shout out to my friend, Mike, who was my sim partner in upgrade training. Thank you so much for, putting up with me and your patience and helping me out passing this training.
Manny:We just, both passed our check rides, recently for upgrade and Mike is now out flying his I o his his first I o e trip or initial operating experience. So we're getting basically signed off by a line check airman that we're okay to go fly with, by ourselves. Right? We're gonna take the training wheels off. So thank you so much for your support.
Manny:Mike, I wanna have you on the show because I wanna share your story with my friends because, you're a fascinating guy. You have a lot of cool stories and I'm sure you have many more more that you didn't tell me and, and and I want to, you know, kind of, share that friendship with, my friends or something like that, you know. But anyways, but just a little, little, sneak peek. Mike is actually a co creator of a of a comic strip called Chicken Wings Comics and you can fin you can go and visit their website. It's chickenwingscomics.com.
Manny:Him and his brother, Stefan, have been doing this for over 2 decades. So this is a well re a well worldwide renowned comic that, I've seen it before I think in passing, but I'm I was never a comics guy. But it's impressive what they've been doing, you know, what they've done with their comic over the years. And it's funny and they have really lovable characters and, that you can probably identify with some of them, but it's aviation related. It's an aviation related, comic and it's it's really cool.
Manny:I really like it, and I wanna bring awareness to my friends so you guys can check check it out. Again, once again, chickenwingcomics.com. You can go ahead and check them out there. Anyways, I'm done talking. Let's go ahead and get started with this, second episode of A 3 Partiers with my friend, Patrick.
Manny:Let's go. Hey, folks from the flight deck. This is your captain speaking. Welcome to the Tailwinds and Sunshine podcast, where we talk everything aviation. I am your host, Manny Ramirez.
Manny:It's always a pleasure to have you on board. So please sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Yeah. So when this hiring happens or this selection process happens, you have you went to UND. Yep.
Manny:So how does that work to get hired on to work as an FAA controller, and where does it start? Because I know that you wanted to work, you know, you looked at the tower as a kid. It's like, I wanna work at the tower, but you've never worked that, day in your life in the tower. So how does it work to get selected? Is it like a selection process to get, to work as a as a controller?
Patrick:It's it's a little bit, but it's not like the interviews. Like, I've I've been through airline interviews, like, through, like, doing, like, ramp agents and stuff. Yeah. I had gone through ramp aging, like, interviews with SkyWest and saw kind of, like, what I would imagine would be kind of, like, what the pilot's interviews would be like. I mean, obviously, a little different, but I feel like that gave me a good understanding as to kinda how that would work.
Patrick:But for us, we had to take a test, like, kind of a a government test. It was called the ATSAT, and they had just changed the test. There was one that you, like, you could study for just before you're done, but you had to pass this test in order to be eligible to hop for hire when the hiring opened. So it was a lot of pressure. And because of the change, I wasn't allowed.
Patrick:I couldn't take the test until it was my last semester. So here I am going through all of my schooling. It's like my last semester and then it's like it's down to this test. So I mean, I never went into it even like, oh, I'm never going to make it, but it's just the weight of it, right? It's like here's the granddaddy test of them all.
Patrick:I didn't want to fail, but I also wanted to score high. I wanted to place high because that would also determine how they would mark you at the time. I could be wrong. It was either like you were qualified or like, well qualified type thing. Okay.
Patrick:I think it's how they kinda deemed it. I can't remember what the the the cutoffs were, but I remember going into the test and just being like, alright. Like, this is the longest test ever. It was an 8 hour test.
Manny:Oh my god.
Patrick:Then they're like, okay. Like, if you're at the 4 hour mark, we're gonna stop. Everybody goes and takes a lunch. And I was like, I don't wanna take lunch. I want, like I just wanna be doing this.
Patrick:In it. Yeah. I wanna keep going, but they're like, nope. Like, you have to go take, like, you
Manny:have to take a lunch.
Patrick:So I remember, like, just head is, like, overwhelmed, and I don't even know why I remember it, but I remember I went to Arby's. I don't eat Arby's, but it's like going to Arby's. Whatever was available. You just like food. I'm like, I'm I'm trying to just distract my mind.
Patrick:Keep it, like it's like going to a football game, and it's like you're you're down. Right? And then it's like, I don't wanna go to halftime because I have the momentum. I wanna keep going.
Manny:Exactly.
Patrick:Type of thing. So I was like, alright. I just I have to keep my mind like in tune, like on point so that even this break doesn't slow me down. Finish the last 4 hours, and then you don't find out for about a week. It's the next score.
Manny:Oh, man.
Patrick:Oh, man. So it doesn't go to it didn't come to me in North
Manny:It got sent to Alaska. Yeah.
Patrick:It got sent to Alaska. It got sent back to Utah. So Yeah. I waited and then, my parents called and opened up the letter and then it was just like, alright. Like, just waiting.
Patrick:Like, come on. Come on. Yeah. And then finally came across well qualified, good to go. I passed.
Patrick:And it was, like, at that point, all the classes were coming to an end, everything was fun, and then after you take the test and you pass, they send you out a questionnaire. Now this doesn't happen anymore, so this is back in 2,000 6. They sent us a letter that said, okay, choose your top 5 states that you wanna be eligible for hire when it does happen. So I was one of the first groups out. There was a few of my friends that were a semester or 2 behind and they got word that the first state that was going to start hiring for controllers was Texas.
Patrick:And I
Manny:was
Patrick:like, I don't want to move to Texas. I'm okay with that.
Manny:Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick:So I had Hawaii, I had Utah, Alaska, and California and Nevada. I think
Manny:that's what
Patrick:I had. So I knew I wanted to work in Hawaii at one point in my career. I was like, I'll get somewhere. I'll work my way up. I'll try to get home, and then, you know, like, when I get married, like, have kids, like, we'll go over to Hawaii.
Patrick:Like, so I waited. Next thing I know, it was I graduated May. I got a call in October or November, and they said I was hired for Las Vegas for McCarran Tower.
Manny:And I
Patrick:was like, this is awesome. Down the road, I spent the majority of my birthdays in Las Vegas, like all growing up because we just loved going down to Vegas as a family, and so it was kind of like a second home. So I was just like super stoked on it. And then right around the start of December, I got a call and they just said, Have you planned anything? And I said, Not yet, I'm getting ready to go down this weekend to start looking for a place.
Patrick:And they said, Well, don't, Just don't. So I was like, well, what? What do you mean? Like, you've been pulled from the hiring. And so I was like,
Manny:And there's
Patrick:you're a hard saying that I was like, what the hell happened? Yeah. I'm like, so am I, like, not eligible for hire completely or, like, what's going on? They said, no. Like, we just hired internally into Vegas.
Patrick:So, basically, they they filled the vacancy that
Manny:From within?
Patrick:Yes. Just another controller that wanted to transfer there. So I started calling about once, sometimes twice. We wanna admit more than that. Yeah.
Patrick:A week trying to follow-up onto what my status was because by this time all my friends, even the ones that were a semester behind had already been picked up in Texas. And some people had gotten some other places, so I was like, what's going on? And then I remember picking up the phone one day. I was at work and made my my normal call, got to the same person that I normally talk to, and just said, got anything for me? And she just said, actually I do.
Patrick:She's like, you're going to Honolulu control facility. And I just stopped and I was like, the control facility? Like, why aren't we talking about airports? So I thought I was going to flight service, which didn't seem to make sense because it was like, that's not what the scope is. But then I was just like, wait.
Patrick:What's the Honolulu control facility? Like, this is like the big daddy of the Hawaiian Islands. Like, you basically work the entire island chain. Like, you're based at Honolulu International, and then it depends on what side you get put on as to what you do for, like, what role you take on as a controller. So she said that, and then I reported to Oklahoma in June of 2007 to start up from there.
Patrick:So I was Honolulu from December. I knew that, and then it's kinda where everything for me started, but that was kinda the the hiring point and kind of how you get selected. You do do you sit down with an interview, kind of for an interview. Mhmm. I sat down with the current when I transferred back to Salt Lake, it was my my manager, but I had known her for a long time because I used to tour the TRACON as a kid with that neighbor that worked there.
Patrick:So I kind of got to know people and know her. So when she saw me come in for the interview, she's like, oh my gosh. Like, we're picking you up. And then she looked at the paperwork and saw that I was selected for Honolulu. She's like, well, if I change this, like, if I can make it work, would you stay here?
Patrick:And all I remember was, like, Gary's last words to me in North Dakota was like, you never ever say no. So I was just like, yeah, like, I'm grateful for wherever it will have me. Like, just want to be there, like happy to be here type thing. Yeah. And so it never happened, and I'm actually very grateful because the best almost 5 years of my career were Honolulu.
Manny:Wow.
Patrick:It was just such an awesome experience, such an awesome facility full of awesome people.
Manny:That's really cool. That and so the one thing that I noticed is that you went to school, so you did all your training
Patrick:Yep.
Manny:And then you had to go to Oklahoma City. Is this where all controllers go to 1st to get training to get, like, spun up on whatever they're gonna be doing?
Patrick:Yep. Oklahoma is kind of like your your in dock location. Okay. So you get in there, you get sworn in as a federal employee, and then you start training. Now the the thing that's awesome about North Dakota and Anchorage is that their simulators are based on everything that's at Oklahoma.
Patrick:So the airport, the runways, the airspace, everything is the exact same. So it's like you walk in and it's like you're instantly, like, I'm so comfortable because I'm in a 100% familiar territory. Yeah. So you go in, you learn. The only thing that was different was, we didn't do tabletop stuff for do you know what tabletops are?
Patrick:Have you heard of that?
Manny:I don't know.
Patrick:No. So tabletop is like kind of a way they train tower controllers where it's literally like you have this airfield that's on a table now in front of you, and you're kind of on this like stand in the room and behind glasses make kind of mimic like you're in a tower.
Manny:Right.
Patrick:And then you have people that are supposed to that they're sort of, like, literally holding a model plane that are, like, this is a 737, and this is a Skyhawk. So you're supposed to walk the according to, like, the plane you're holding. So it's like you're manually holding this plane and moving it, and then the controller that's training is basically controlling it based off that. It's really weird, but it's it's a lot of just not very accurate training because it's like Yeah. When you see something It sounds like it sounds
Manny:like something like out of the fifties. Fifties. Like, it sounds like, you know, they just like when they used to actually move little airplanes on the board, you know, like pins. It sounds really archaic. Yeah.
Manny:It's like, wow. Yeah. I was like So and then I remember when I
Patrick:walked in, I was like, no. I will I don't know. I would hope not. You don't know. Just because I'm like, when you see somebody walking around with, like, a little Skyhawk and they're going faster than the 737 on file, I'm like, we got a problem.
Patrick:So
Manny:Yeah. Yeah. That's not they got they got jet engines on that thing. And so when when do you know is it is it facility you got hired on or they're the ones that are gonna say, hey. You're gonna be going to tower.
Manny:Hey. You're gonna be going to radar. You're gonna be going or terminal or TRACON. Are they the
Patrick:ones that decide your position? So yeah. So not every so this is kinda where, like, I look at where I work as as very much like another, like, side of my family. Right? Because it's like you work with these people day in and day out.
Patrick:I see the same faces. I see the same people. I'm assigned to pretty much the same crew. When you start working your seniority, that seniority usually sticks together and they stay together. But when I got to Oklahoma, my operations manager from Honolulu, there was one other person that was there that was coming to Honolulu with me, and she was from Hawaii, and her dad worked in the facility as well.
Patrick:And so he came in to visit us because that that's not a requirement. I just I don't know. Again, it's that first impression thing that stood out to me as, like, my operations manager flew all the way from Honolulu all the way out to Oklahoma to come meet with us and take us. He took us out to to lunch to get to know us. And it was a different time just because they had just cut all of our pay rates down.
Patrick:So it was like and we had to pay kind of our own way in Oklahoma whereas now they get per diem. But we were making, like, $8.42 an hour while we were in training. I was making more money at my other job waiting for this one. Yeah. But he took us out to lunch and just, like, it wasn't anything about, like, who he was.
Patrick:It was just more internally, like, this is my boss. This is, like, my manager. Like, I was self intimidated because I was, like, this is it. Like, I'm in. Like, this is like the guy that's going to be like my boss.
Patrick:I'll see him all the time. Like, he calls the shots. Could not have been a nicer guy. I still look up to him, and he's kind of like the epitome of, like, who I think and how an operations manager should always be. His name's Robert.
Patrick:I'll go that far, but he landed up being somebody that wasn't just my manager, became a a very good friend of mine and somebody that I knew generally cared about me. But he took us out and then just instantly turned to us and said, well, he's like, your seniority plays for you already. He's like, you gotta choose. He's like your top seniority in the training department, so you get the choice of either going to the Honolulu Tower TRACON, so you would work the Honolulu Tower and the TRACON for Honolulu itself, or you would go to island approach. Island approach consisted of CRAP, which is center, and you're dealing with non radar oceanic and all the oceanic procedures, but you're also running the center approach control into the outer islands and we also worked Maui TRACON.
Patrick:So I chose tower because I was like, well, I'm here, right? I'm training tower. So I told my manager, I was like, no, like I want to do tower. Like that's just been like, what more of a dream could you want? Work Honolulu, look out, see Waikiki, be right there, look at the reef runway, see everything.
Patrick:I'm like, tower. So he's like, right. You got it. So he went back. I finished the training.
Patrick:We were there for about a month and a half total in Oklahoma. And then I got to the facility day 1, and everybody there was a a manager's meeting going on. So there was actually a manager from Utah, from Ogden Tower that was here that was at that meeting, and she was like, hey. He's like, you're the ones from Utah. You're the one that's from Utah.
Patrick:I was like, what? Do you know what's, like, area you're going to here? And I was like, oh, yeah. I'm like, I'm going to the tower. And that's when I saw Robert pop out of the room, and he's like, no.
Patrick:He's not. Oh. That's why I looked at him, and he's just like, nope. He's like, you're going to island approach.
Manny:Okay.
Patrick:And so I was like, Okay. I'm like, radar it is. I'm like, We'll go with that. So I just got books and maps and they just had me in a training room and they said, Until we can figure out how we're going to run the training, go teach yourself center radar and procedures and everything. So that's where it kinda started for me.
Patrick:So it was originally
Manny:You literally got thrown off. You literally got thrown off the deep end, it. Well, we gotta figure this out, but, teach yourself. There you go. We're not gonna pay.
Manny:Just be teach yourself. You got sent to basically, hcf. Right? Is that what they call it? Yep.
Manny:And you got there and you got taught teach yourself pretty much everything you need to know to start controlling. And now, initially, you wanted to go to tower, but they they had different plans and you went to HCF. And was it it's kinda hard because when you go the way that I see it, and I think many people see it is when you could become an air traffic controller, you figure you go to school and you kinda get all that out of the way. When you go when you went to UND, for example, did you have, like did they teach you everything? So how to control, like, center, TRACON, radar, towers?
Manny:They teach you everything there?
Patrick:Yeah. So they taught us a lot of tower and basically terminal radars at TRACON. But then right towards it was my last semester. That's where they kinda got the inclination that the centers were most likely gonna be the initial, like, hiring. That's where most of the new hires would go.
Patrick:So they quickly revamped some of the classes to incorporate en route into it as well Okay. To basically teach us, what we needed to know. Obviously, it wasn't gonna be, like, everything, but it was enough to give you, like, a a good solid foundation to understand in route and kinda what they were doing. But we were definitely more equipped for the terminal side.
Manny:Okay.
Patrick:So that was kind of the the challenge for me. But
Manny:So when you so you spent you said 5 years in Hawaii? Is that what you said? You spent Yeah.
Patrick:Just under 5.
Manny:Just under 5 years in Hawaii. And then you ended up transferring how did that work? The transfer to, back to or going to Salt Lake, how did that work? Did you put in for a transfer, or did you get it in a, position offered?
Patrick:No. So, generally, it's it's kinda one of those weird things. It was, like, do I really wanna leave Hawaii? You know, when I got there, it was like the way I explained it to people is that all of my family was back here in Utah. This is where I'm born and raised.
Patrick:So it was it was different being in Hawaii like when you're like by yourself and I got to meet a ton of people, made a ton of friends and that's where it was like I got so involved with like the aviation community because it wasn't just the people that I worked with and spent time with every day in like in the facilities, but it was the pilots that I was meeting when I was flying around the islands and all of a sudden I became friends with them. I was hanging out with them and got to, like, ask questions and then all of a sudden it was like people knew and that's like it's a it's a unique airspace because, yeah, you get a lot of the people that come in, you know, flying the heavies and there was a lot of heavies back then, not as much as anymore, but it was heavies everywhere. But for the inner island stuff, it was the same pilots day in, day out. So it's like you really got to know the controller by their voice. You got to know pilots by their voice, but I got to know the pilots because I got to hang out with them
Manny:Nice.
Patrick:And get to meet them and get to know them and get to answer questions and let them you know, I could ask them questions. So it was really an awesome, awesome, like, time out there. And those friends that I have are still friends I have now. Like, that's a it was a life, like, friendship that was created out there. Yeah.
Patrick:But the hard part was is that, like, you know, anytime that I would have time off, I wasn't going anywhere. I was literally just going back to Utah because it was like, you know, like, I I miss my family. I wanted to see, like, my siblings and, like, my parents and my friends and stuff, but I think I was, like, I I don't really know, like, what I wanna do, like, what I wanna accomplish. And then I remember sitting down and talking with, like, my manager and stuff and through training, and he just is like, you're you're not going anywhere. Like, we we don't wanna lose you type thing.
Patrick:And Yeah. He, like, he went so above and beyond. Like, I'm I'm not even gonna get into it, but it's like he was legit probably one of the the coolest people I've I've met in my career, but looked out for me, took care of me. It was like being there by myself. I got kind of, like, adopted into as, like, all these, like, different, like, moms and dads and brothers and stuff like all over
Manny:the place.
Patrick:Like when you hear people talk about Ohana in Hawaii, like it takes on this whole different meaning when you actually are a part of
Manny:it. And
Patrick:so it's like, that's why it was so bittersweet when I finally transferred out. But kind of the process was is that my brother had had his first child, and it was the first niece or nephew I'd ever had. And I flew home, and they wanted even my manager was like, hey. Like, I heard, like, you have a a niece, like are you gonna go see her? And I was like, well, I don't have the time off.
Patrick:I'm new in the career. I don't have that much time. And he's like, we'll make it work. So he helped me figure this thing out. Let me come home.
Patrick:And then when that first time was that I saw my niece, I just was like, it's time. Like, I need to try to, like, start working my way back, and that's when I went into like, I came home that same trip when I came to see my niece, I actually went in to see, the manager here at the TRACON. Yeah. And I said, hey. What do I gotta do?
Patrick:It's it's time to come home. You know? It's like, I don't expect it to happen, you know, tomorrow, but like what's the process? What do I need to like start doing? So we walked through the the options and then even when I got back, it's like my managers knew that I had made a visit to the facility here, and they're like, I told you not to visit, like but joking, of course, but they were like Yeah.
Patrick:When I left, it it was, like, it was evident. They, like, they knew it was a matter of time before I would most likely go back to Utah, but they were they were trying everything to keep me, And I honestly didn't have any intent to leave until that one trip home. Yeah. And so that kinda changed the course, but it was a 100% an employee request for transfer. So it was just it's another way.
Patrick:So if there's not an opening for a facility, so there was we they were staffed, but with no bid. So if, like, we're our staffing goes below numbers or there's projected to be below numbers, a bid will go out to basically say, hey, like we need control of the Salt Lake. Anybody interested in coming here or moving out of the lower level facilities wanting to come up? You basically apply to it like a job, but it's an internal progression. Right?
Manny:Just like just like they were what they were doing in Vegas, you know, when you went there. Yeah.
Patrick:Yep. Cool. Exactly. Cool. So they landed up.
Patrick:There was no openings. There was no bid for Salt Lake. So the manager here in Salt Lake just said, just put in a request for transfer, we call an for it's just an employee request for relocation, which basically just shows that, like, hey. You know, like, there's no bid out, but I see this person wants to come out and they're qualified, and I actually could use this person. Then the managers had say where it's like they could actually pick you up off an list instead of a bid.
Patrick:So that was like, okay. She just, like, put it for the tower and put it in for the TRACON. So I was like, alright. And then she's like, well, she's like, When we ask you, like, what do you prefer? So I was like, I've missed Vegas tower, I've missed Honolulu tower, and now I'm 5 years deep into CRAP and TRACON.
Patrick:I was like, I'm comfortable with Radar, and my thing was I just want Radar. She's like, perfect because I need TRACON. Yeah. And everybody that wants to come here wants tower.
Manny:And I
Patrick:was like, well, then I'm your guy because
Manny:I'm your guy.
Patrick:I'm no longer I'm trying to push the tower option. I'm like, I just go hang out out the towers like I did in Honolulu. Mhmm. But that's pretty much how it all happened is that I put in the ER request for both the tower and the tracon, and then I got picked up probably 4 months. It was really quick.
Patrick:It was very quick. 4 months after our initial visit, and I had the the transfer back to Salt Lake, and then I was here I was given word in January of 2 can't remember. It's January and I reported in March. So it was really quick when I got my my offer letter and then when I was supposed to report.
Manny:Wow. And now you've been to the same facility ever, since then?
Patrick:Yep. I've been here now for, what is it, 12, 13 years.
Manny:Wow. Okay.
Patrick:Yeah.
Manny:That's cool. And now is it are you let me see if I'm trying to ask the right question for this one or maybe, Is it your TRACON, is it the same position, or is there different positions within TRACON?
Patrick:There's different. So our facility and it's every facility is different as to how they manage the airspace that they're given. So our airspace is broken up. It's stratified. So it's we have 9 sectors if we open up every position.
Patrick:And that's like if every position is like just firing planes are everywhere, we have 9 sectors to alleviate workload. But Salt Lake is unique in the fact that we work the busy level 12 numbers. So we work the same numbers as like Atlanta and Chicago. But the difference is is that after our banks, we lull, so we go into a quiet period. So we have these breaks between banks, whereas in the level twelves, these big the the large facilities are constant.
Patrick:It's just all day long. There's really no breaks between the banks. The bank is just, like, from sunup to sun down Damn. If that makes sense.
Manny:Yeah. So then now for the, you you work at s 56. What does the s for c 6 stand for? Is that a what is that?
Patrick:It's just it's just an identifier. There's no significance behind it. So every facility, it's just aviation. Everything has an identifier. It's just like SkyWest has its 3 letter identifier.
Patrick:We have a 3 letter identifier. So the TRACONS are always a letter and then two numbers.
Manny:Okay.
Patrick:So, and then your centers are usually start with a z, so Salt Lake Center is z l c. Like, TRACON is s 56. The tower is SLC. Okay. And then so it's, like, Seattle TRACON is I always remember this one because it's pretty close, but it's s 46.
Manny:S 46.
Patrick:So yep. That's cool. There's just there's just literally just internal identifiers.
Manny:Oh, okay. That's cool. And now, the, when you let me see. I visited, what's the Vegas one? Was, was the because I've I've been to the Vegas one, which is right below the tower.
Manny:Have you ever visited this facility in Vegas?
Patrick:I have not. I can't remember what it is, what their identifier is.
Manny:Oh, no. No. But yeah. So I visited that facility once. I I got a tour from, I forgot who I reached out to.
Manny:All I know is is we have the same last name, and I think it's Richard. Richard Ramirez is, he was, he was, I think one of the managers or I forgot his position there, but he worked at the FAA. He he offered a tour, and I went and took my dad to take a tour, to take a a tour of the facility, and then we went and, we went up to the tower. So we would look at the facility, TRACON facility, and then we went up to the tower. So it was really cool.
Manny:And something I wanted to point out is that Patrick right now is dressed just like a true controller or Traka. You know, they're hoodie. They have a hat and you can see them in front of their desk. You know, they're just in front of the computer. They're just like hoodie and they had just looking at the screen.
Manny:That's exactly what Patrick is dressed right now. He looks like a true controller right now. So
Patrick:It's because it's it's like the tray pumps get cold, man. Yeah. Like, what I've learned in radar is because they are literally cooling that equipment because the equipment never gets turned off.
Manny:Mhmm.
Patrick:So if I go in there without a hoodie or without a jacket, I am freezing. So I've inherited it over time that, like, this is just what's become me.
Manny:Yeah. Because not only not only that, but it's just that you you also bring that up that the equipment really were living in, in their world and just the computers. Right? So they they have to keep their rooms at a certain temperature so they don't they don't overheat. It's the same thing when I go into a classroom and, some of the devices that we have in there, some rooms are really super cold.
Manny:You can feel the cold air just coming out of those rooms. So I usually have to bring a jacket when I go and teach in these rooms because they're just freaking cold. Or I bring a little space heater and put it next to me or something just so I can keep myself warm because it's so freaking cold in those rooms because they wanna keep the Yes. The equipment cool and for run from overheating because they the the the equipment is super finicky. And yeah.
Manny:So yeah. That's what I did. I visited, TRACON once. I've been wanting to visit, Denver TRACON, which I think is off-site, not in Denver, whereas here in Vegas, it's, in the same building, which is pretty cool. I've never visited Salt Lake because I've never had the opportunity to do so.
Manny:I'd I'd love to do that.
Patrick:Is there, Manny. Just come on in. We'll we'll take you in.
Manny:Alright. I'm I'm gonna take it up. I'm I'm sure I think I think I was looking at my I don't think I have anything in October, but I nowhere I don't think I've ever done a Salt Lake overnight. It's always just a turn. Yeah.
Manny:So I would have to be based out of Salt Lake to do it. But one of these days, I'm gonna take a special trip, and it's down down the street. I'm in Vegas right now, so it's down the street like you said. It's not very far away. So I'm gonna make that special trip, and one of these days, I'm gonna be looking at that, at your at your facility.
Patrick:The door is always open. You're always welcome.
Manny:Thank you. I appreciate it. So let me get into a more, some more technical questions I wanted to ask you. The first one is, well, it's more kind of a personal thing to see what you do, but air traffic control is, is often associated with high levels of stress. Right?
Manny:So I cannot imagine myself doing that because it is so stressful. Like, I I would lose track of airplanes. I would, I would I I can barely remember what I did, like, 10 minutes ago, and that you know? So it's it's really hard. Now so how do you manage how how do you personally manage stress in your role as a controller?
Patrick:Yeah. That's that's a good question. Honestly, it's like, you don't wanna dumbfound or, like, kind of downplay. That's the word I look for. You don't wanna downplay, like, what the job is that you're doing, but it's, like, the only thing I can explain it is it's, like, when you look at the scope, you have you have 2 options to that's how you look at it.
Patrick:Every single dot, you're gonna start calculating bodies, right? How many people are on board those dots?
Manny:Okay. Right?
Patrick:Because then it's like that's where you see a lot of the stress, and we've had people that can't can't get over that. They know that there's there's life on the line, and the pressure of these dots getting close or how the procedures work that gets too much for them. Yeah. Or it's like you just acknowledge. You just know, like, this is just the job.
Patrick:I'm working planes that have people, but it's like, again, you're not shutting it out to like downplay safety or anything, but it's just allow your mind to process the information in front of you to keep it moving safely. So for me it's always been I look at every plane on my radar and it's just okay. I know what I've got a sequence. I know my spacing. I know where I'm gonna put this aircraft.
Patrick:I know what I've gotta do to get it there, speed, vectors, altitude, how I'm gonna do it. It might be a straight down descent or it's gonna be a 6, like, a 6 altitude step down, you know, depending on how the air the aircraft that are doing their things. But at the end of the day, it's like I don't walk out of that building without thinking, like, I literally just brought, you know, I sent families on vacation, I brought families home from an amazing vacation, you know, family reunions, people that are doing business, you know, everything, you know, every scope across the board, but you kinda walk out of there as, like, okay, like, I I did my job and I did it well. You know? It's like air traffic is one of those things where it's it's such a team effort based between you and the pilots, but you don't get to go outside afterwards and go high five the pilots that, you know, that you worked with to be like, hey.
Patrick:Like Yeah. What we did today was incredible. Like, we did this. It wasn't just me. Yeah.
Patrick:Yeah. I saw the bigger picture because because I'm looking at more, but you guys are flying the planes. You guys are heads up, heads down, adjusting things and doing all of your instrumentation, going through checklist. I'm your eyes when your heads are down, you know, to make sure that, like, this can work seamlessly, but I can't go out at the end of the day and be, like, hey, like, everybody, let's high 5 each each other, like, you know, pat each other on the back, or it's like, hey. Like, when, you know, like, hey.
Patrick:I asked you to pick up a descent. It might have been an uncomfortable decent, might have been a little bit steeper or I told you to expedite and you weren't prepared for it, but it's like you you did it and, you know, we're all responding to, you know, each other's, you know, requests. Mhmm. But that commonality that we have on the frequency is probably the best definition of teamwork that I can come up with.
Manny:Mhmm.
Patrick:But for us, the reality is at the end of the day, I don't get to walk out and be like, hey. Like, you know, like, a supervisor slaps you on the back. Like, hey. That was an awesome job. What you did today was incredible.
Patrick:It was like you're basically left to kinda pick yourself up. Right? Like the the stress of the job isn't necessarily the stress that people think of it as. Like, for me, I I never get stressed by it, and I think I was stressed at the start of my career because it was, like, I gotta get through training. I've gotta get it's a 2 to 3 year training, you know, program to get through an en route facility or it's a year and a half to 2 years for TRACON, and it could be anywhere from 6 months to a year and a half for a tower depending on the level.
Patrick:Yeah. But you can go through it as fast as you need to and that determines how hard are you willing to work, how hard are you willing to study. And when you start trying to understand the job and trying to like take all of the rules and the procedures and actually take them from the book, the air traffic bible, the 0.65, and you put them on the scope and you see it and you actually get to, like, see how it works versus just how it's worded. Yeah. And then you're like, k.
Patrick:That makes sense. This is how it works. And now it's like you're progressing through controlling. You're like, alright. Like, it just becomes the job.
Patrick:So the stress of itself in a sense goes away. But some people, like I say, like, we've had trainees that have come through that look at a scope and they can't decipher, like, the the problem solving. You know, everybody can work. I always, like, tell, like, my wife and, like, my my siblings and, like, my mom and dad, like, I could literally plug them in on a clear blue day, and it's, like, for the most part, anybody could almost tell you how to tell a pilot how to descend and get them to the airport safely, but it's where we get the crazy weather that comes in.
Manny:Mhmm.
Patrick:You know, for us in the summer, it's the thunder bumpers that roll through the valley, and that's been all this week. Like, it's been insane, but it's summer or in the winter when the valley just completely goes IFR and there's no visibility, and it's like, you wanna talk about teamwork and the how pilots rely on controllers to see outside that window for them, that's the time. That's where, like, the proof in the pudding is because there's so much reliance upon each other for those things that it's like you actually thrive off the teamwork than it is trying to be like, well, I'm just gonna try to prove to people I know what I'm doing. Like Yeah. Of course, we all know what we're doing, but when you know what you're doing as a pilot and I know what I'm doing as a controller and you have those 2 working together, like, literally anything is possible.
Manny:'Sup, nerds? Before I let you go, I have a task for you. I have a challenge. If you can go to the platform where you're listening to this podcast ending, go ahead and leave a review. Just tap that star.
Manny:Whether it's a 5 star, I like that very much, or a 4 or a 3 or 2 or a 1, it doesn't matter as as long as you leave a review and some criticism so I can improve this podcast because I want the Tailwinds of Sunshine podcast to be your podcast. So go ahead and leave that review now. I also wanna give a huge shout out to my friends and coworkers for sharing the podcast with their friends and family. That means the world to me. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart.
Manny:Also, if you wanna be part of the show, go ahead and hit me up. It doesn't matter where you are in the world. We'll make that show happen. We'll make you a friend of the show. Until next time, wishing you Tailwinds and sunshine.
Manny:See you. The statements made on the show are my own opinion and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.