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The Moonshots Podcast goes behind the scenes of the world's greatest superstars, thinkers and entrepreneurs to discover the secrets to their success. We deconstruct their success from mindset to daily habits so that we can apply it to our lives. Join us as we 'learn out loud' from Elon Musk, Brene Brown to emerging talents like David Goggins.
093 moonshots gladwell david goliath final
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the moonshots podcast. It's episode 93, a massive and Epic 93. And as usual, I know cohost might pass ins and I'm joined by the man. Who's not just an outlier, but some might say he's a contender too. Welcome back to the show, mr. Mark Pearson Freeland. Good morning morning, mr. Mike Parsons.
How are you doing on this fine Sydney day? Well, I'm doing fantastic. And I think one of the reasons that I'm doing so well is that there's Malcolm Gladwell's keeps on giving and I just can't believe how good each of his masterpieces really are. Each of his books have been a entree, main mail, dessert, all in one.
Um, they have been [00:01:00] wonderful and we haven't. Finished yet. Isn't it nuts that each of them just keep it on building on the last we're actually jumping now into Malcolm Gladwell's fifth book, which is David and Goliath. And this book, I mean, this is one that really reset your thinking. I think this might be one of the most moon shotty books that we've actually covered mine.
That's awesome. That's awesome. I think he might be honest something. And what I like about Gladwell's work is not only can boy, can this guy tell a story like so articulate, um, but he's always blending, um, psychology behavior, a dash of economics. Um, he's such an observant, uh, guy and he comes with these really.
Well formed ideas and what I like about his book, David and Goliath. So I [00:02:00] think as we've seen in the more recent episodes, there's really some challenging ideas. There's a little bit of a discomfort. And because he's reframing our expectations. And I think, uh, David and Goliath really delivers on value. Um, and has some real punch to it that you think that yeah, I do.
And just to build on that, I think what's great about Gladwell's storytelling and the narrative that he, that he puts in is he really focuses on actionable things that we can begin doing from today. So. You know, for example, with outliers, it was changing our opinion, perhaps around how people become high achievers and why some others don't and how we can go after environment, upbringing, poverty, the way that were born or towards being a success with David and Goliath.
Again, these are stories that we're going to hear in today's episode that ultimately help us learn new [00:03:00] ways of thinking about adversity. And going out and achieving the goals that we might have. Right. And I think it's more than just concept of resilience, which is a theme that we've seen in the show a ton.
I think this actually goes one step further, and I think that's the value I want to pitch to you and to the listeners that what we have is not only a timely reminder of resilience. And embracing adversity, but real case studies on how this works actually led to real success, whether it's individuals like Richard Branson or whether it's massive brands like that Kia, what we have the opportunity to do is to actually not only embrace.
Difficulties, but actually to look for them because they can make us stronger. So this is really kind of touching upon things. We've had Zaha Hadid, Michelle Obama, you [00:04:00] name it, these themes intersect with so many of the innovators that we've studied and all in all. It is so powerful for the moment because.
It's essential that we find the tools to believe in ourselves, our friends, colleagues, and family, in order to overcome whatever the world has to give. And in 2020, it's given us a, just a bit, has it, we've really had to have a new mindset of adversity, resilience and so on, but I think, you know, what else he can teach us is taking more risks.
So there's the safe side of. Being resilient and putting up a defense. But actually what I think we get out of David and Goliath is this perseverance to achieve your goal. Shoot higher, keep on pushing. And it's quite an offensive approach at the same time as defensive, I'd say. Exactly. So why don't we get on the offensive and actually listen to a Gladwell and [00:05:00] we're going to start with just some notions of the book itself, but most importantly, let's get stuck into it.
Let's delve into the idea of refusing. To give up. I wrote the book idea for the book because I had, um, done this piece for the new Yorker some years ago called how David beats Goliath about a, a guy out in California who coached his, his, um, daughter's 12 year old basketball team, um, all the way to the national championships, even though they were.
A group entirely without talent or skill. Um, and he did it by for those of you are basketball fans by playing the full court press every minute of every game. I really, really, really radical form of that full guard press the most aggressive form you can. Um, and I, I just thought that story was hilarious.
Um, but also really interesting because I love of the way in which, uh, he. Well [00:06:00] refused to give up. So he had here, he was touched. He was the guy, I think my basketball coaching, a team of girls without any obvious skills in the area and the normal, uh, response to people in those situations is either to say it's pointless and lose by 30 points a game, um, or to try desperately to play by.
The rules of everyone else like to play the way everyone else is playing and try and catch up, which would be impossible in a season. Um, and he chose option C, which was to hell with it. Let's play it this way. That's so deeply subversive that, you know, the other team isn't gonna know what hit them. Um, and that, uh, that, just that story just stay with me.
I thought it would be really fun to write a book about those things, strategies, this idea of option C. As well as what Malcolm Gladwell calls, the full court press. We need a focus. I think of David and Goliath. It's not just about resilience, like we say, but it's all about. [00:07:00] Applying an offensive nature to the defensive nature.
You know, that's where the full court press is, is really about. And as he digs into his book, and I think that's a really fascinating way to reframe our approach around difficult challenges, difficult, like you say, Mike, and, and I think that, um, Not only seeing the black and white, but actually being able to maybe look between the trees and find that additional option, something that may mean the other competition.
I mean, that's, that's an innovative approach, right? It is, and it's, and it's, um, this refusal to play a game that, you know, you can't win, but to play the games you can win. And I think that that is the starting of the, of the mindset, if you will. And then what's, what's interesting is as you start to decode this, what Gladwell has to offer us is actually.
There, there is really a [00:08:00] chance for any underdog to take on a giant. Any David can be a Goliath, so let's actually go right into Gladwell. Again, let's get into some of the, the details on how underdogs really do have a chance against giants. Well, Malcolm Gladwell garnered millions of fans by turning conventional wisdom on its head and his past books, blink outliers, and the tipping point.
And now he's added again with the new book it's out this month, David and Goliath, underdogs misfits, and the arts battling giants. Malcolm. Good morning. It's good to see you. We all think we know the story of David and Goliath. We all thought it was David's faith and a miracle that helped him prevail. You see something different in that story.
Story is much more complicated and interesting. I think we've underestimated. For example, just how powerful a sling is the weapon that David chose. Isn't it, it's a devastating weapon that, and also we also, I'm not going to give it away, but there's a secret to [00:09:00] Goliath that many medical experts have been.
Speculating about in recent years. So I started the book by retelling that story and it makes you understand, wait a minute, it's not this improbable victory by someone who a one in a million chance, underdogs actually have a real chance against if I could sum it up. I think that's the thrust of the book that sometimes something that appears to be a disadvantage can be an advantage.
And you give a lot of. Real world examples of that. Can you give me, give me one right now? Sure. I mean, I have chapters on education talk. I have a big chapter on class size that says we have the conventional wisdom that says the smaller the class, the better it is for a child. And I said, that's true. But only up to a point when classes get too small, the effect starts to reverse and your child may be worse off than they would have been otherwise.
So there's a case where spending more and more and more money hiring more and more teachers. Always have the create the advantage that we think it's going to create. You [00:10:00] have the theory of desirable difficulty and tell this a couple of stories about people who suffered with dyslexia and went on to enormous success.
Yeah. I mean, one of the fascinating facts about dyslexia is if you look at successful entrepreneurs and innovators, a hugely disproportionate number of them suffer from learning disabilities. So I sat down with all kinds of incredibly successful businessmen and just ask. Them about what did that mean?
And then they said, they think that they succeeded did as well as they did, not in spite of their disability, but because of it, that in learning to cope with it and work around it, they learn things they would never have otherwise. Well, it's a very interesting insight makes you look at difficulties. You might encounter in your own life in a very different way.
Malcolm, Gladwell's always good to have you here. Thank you. The book of course is called David and Goliath. Hmm, we're going to dig into desirable difficulties later in the show. And I can't wait to get onto that topic, but actually I think something [00:11:00] that Gladwell says in that interview just then is it's not an improbable victory.
If you can see the advantage that you uniquely have. So even though it might seem like an impossible task going up against Goliath, remember that, that Goliath. Won't have the same experience that you've had. And you might have an advantage within your experience, your past your current makeup, you've set up of the business that they won't have.
And that reframing your mindset towards that challenge is really, I think that the core of the David and Goliath book. It is and, and what, what I hope, um, we can let's see here. Is that okay? What Gladwell has opened up so far in the show here is really making the case for having a different mindset.
Don't give in, but rather number one have confidence in yourself, believe in yourself that [00:12:00] there's always an option. See if you look at it the right way, there's always a Slingshot. For David, if you have the right mindset, I mean, he talked about a team of girls that were not the tallest, fastest and most athletic, but they played options.
See, they did the full court press. They didn't give the opposition time to showcase their skills. He talked about. This disproportionate number of successful business folks and innovators are dyslexic. And here's the thing. If you can, they make the shift towards knowing that they succeeded, not despite of it, but because of it, because it helped them be stronger.
It helped them be more resilient and to be more flexible, more agile. Then a world opens up and we are going to dive into that world, uh, for the rest of the show. We're going to look at why adversity is so fundamental to our success. [00:13:00] We're going to look at some successful case studies and we're going to reframe a couple, a couple of fundamental human beliefs, all of that in the next 15 minutes.
Can you believe at Mark? Wow. I feel as though time is the Goliath and we are. David, but based on Gladwell, I think we can do it, Mike. I totally do. But before we get into some wonderful insights around adversity, I tell you, uh, there was some folks that overcame adversity during the week, they gave us a ton of ratings, a ton of reviews.
And, um, boy, are we happy to share that with, uh, all of the listeners of what have we got? So we've got a fantastic new review from our new friend in Canada. Who unsurprised amazingly, our listeners have the greatest username in the world. This isn't personal out to gravity, apples. In Canada [00:14:00] left us a fantastic review.
Thank you so much. We've seen going up in the charts, um, our listeners in Canada right now, and this is down to you, gravity apples by leaving us a review and a rating. You've helped spread the word in Canada. So greetings from Sydney all the way to Canada and especially do you gravity, apples. Thank you for leaving us a review.
Yeah, so a big shout out and please do take the time, time to give us a review or rating, because this is really how a new listeners come to join our community, which is all about learning from innovators, unpacking, um, fascinating folks like Malcolm Gladwell diving into their work, and there's so much there.
So we really do encourage you to share the show with your friends, um, in the fact gravity, apples. This is really cool. Actually, they found us through the back catalog and it goes all the way back to our [00:15:00] Frank Lloyd Wright episode, which is in the backlog. And so if you are tempted to check out our catalog, we have over 90 shows, you can go back and have a listen to.
And Mark, I think the big question is. Where should one go. If I'm interested in this catalog, where, where, where you can start in one of two places, you can go to our. Online hub, our online repository in library, moonshots.io. That's where all of our archive shows are all 92. Before today's 93, you can find show notes and transcriptions.
For many, many of the shows, you can find some additional exciting third party links that we've embedded in there. And you can even see a glimpse of what's to come. You can also find this in all of your. Podcasting software's of choice, including iTunes and Spotify and overcast and all of our favorite platforms.
But [00:16:00] you can also find us on all the social media channels. One that we, uh, you might all enjoy is checking out our weekly mantras from some of our favorite innovators. So we really suggest going to check us out, leave us a review, share with your friends, because we just love getting our. Process of learning out loud, shared with the community.
And with that, I think we've got a great clip to share with this great community of as across the globe. And we're going to start with this underlying platform, this idea that, um, adversity is not something that you should run away with. Uh, it's not something that you should feel overwhelmed with.
Because if you really get into Gladwell, if you have the mindset, this is the case he's making a David and Goliath. If you have the mindset, you can almost say to yourself, well, good things are getting tough. I [00:17:00] must be doing the right thing. So let's now dive into a world of embracing adversity with none other than Malcolm Gladwell.
So, this is really interesting fact that a very large percentage, a much larger percentage of successful entrepreneurs are dyslexic. Then in the general population and many of the Richard Branson, Paul Orfila, Charles Schwab, John Chambers at Cisco, I could go on Craig McCall, the cell phone pioneer. Most of these guys are all dyslexic, right?
David Neeleman at JetBlue. And if you talk to them, they will explain to you that. I don't think they succeeded in spite of their disability. They think they succeeded because of it for them. And if you want, I sat down with two dozen of these guys I've got, I guess, have obsessed at the beginning of my book in the middle of my book was talking to dyslexic entrepreneurs.
Their stories are all the same. They all look back [00:18:00] and we'll tell you, you know, if it hadn't been for the fact that I couldn't read or read well in second and third and fourth grade, I never have. And they started listing all the things they were forced to do. That proved to be ultimately advantageous. I would never have learned how to listen.
I would never have been forced in second grade. I was, I made friends with the smartest kid in the class and I basically convinced him to do my homework for me. I can't tell you how many times I heard that. So what are they learning at that age? They're learning delegation. They're learning how to communicate with other people, motivate other people team.
I mean, they do that in Brian Grazer. Your producer who's dyslexic. His whole thing was he would, he figured out how he would fail his tests and they would go in and he would talk his grade up from a D to a C. So from the age of this high he's learning negotiation, right. And by the end, by the time he gets to college and he's brilliant at it.
And then what did he do? Comes a Hollywood [00:19:00] producer. What is that about negotiation among other things, and he's been practicing his entire life. So this is a weird thing where. He would say as difficult as my dyslexia was. And for all of these people, their childhoods were not fun. I mean, I interviewed Gary Cohn, who was the president of Goldman who's profoundly dyslexic.
And his childhood just sounds, I mean, dark and miserable, no one thought he was capable of doing schoolwork. I thought he was do were amazed with the good and graduated from high school. Um, Despite that they all back in and say, you know, was a desirable difficulty. It was, I was taught, I was forced to learn stuff I would never even have thought about in order to learn the things that really need to be learned.
We require, or a certain level of adversity. The trick is figuring out what that diversity ought to look like. Right. And that's, like I said, something that's that is, can only be [00:20:00] decided on a case by case basis. It's going to be different for you than it is for me. The list of names that Malcolm's dropped to evening.
I know, but when you dig into the book, his list includes Branson, Spielberg, bill Gates, Winston Churchill, Einstein, Walt Disney, Steve jobs. I mean, I go on and on. We probably need a longer show Mike in order to, but they say it's a wonderful demonstration of Gladwell's personality. He really gets into it.
And like he says, He spends so much time talking to these people. You can imagine them getting excited and animated and really deep into it. But the core is, is a lesson that I think we can all learn from. And that's thinking about, what am I going to learn today? And therefore reframing the fact that that's going to be a difficulty, you know, naturally people.
Um, I think. Struggle perhaps with, with, [00:21:00] um, particular challenges and actually one way of reframing eight challenge is to think, okay, well, it doesn't matter whether this is unpleasant or not. As long as I'm learning something from it, this is an option tunity for me to get better. And I think having that, that amount of adversity that Gladwell's talking about here, Is is something that we can try and reframe our minds around.
Yes. And I think at the, there's like a two step process here for me, it is one knowing that when it starts to hurt, when your sensing adversity, anxiety, or challenge in order to do something that really matters, you know, fulfilling your work. Uh, your career pursuits in your spare time, whatever you're trying to build.
Um, and I'll use the, the [00:22:00] workout analogy. I think step one is like, Ooh, this workout is really tough. Um, it's hurting it's I I'm struggling a bit. Just know that that means that physically you are pushing your body and your body gets stronger. The more you push it. And it is exactly the same in life. So I think we need to have this default take, I feel the adversity.
I must be doing the right thing. I think that's the first thing. I think that the second thing. Is to know that when adversity is coming your way, where either things are hard or maybe some things are going wrong, it then is the second step of what am I learning and how can I do it better? And I think that as we apply this to our craft, if we're one saying, Oh, this is really hard, then we're not prepared to give up as quickly.
And number two as a mental [00:23:00] model, say, okay, there's friction here. Is there something I can do better. So the question then becomes, what am I learning? And as you frame it like this in a two step approach, one great it's hurting. And two, what am I learning? It means that you will get better. So the next time you try it, you do it better.
And then you will encounter. If you just keep this whole David and Goliath philosophy going, you will find that you will get challenges in different places, but you will become more and more complete over time. And this is for me, this is the framework that we can tell from Malcolm GuideWell. And he spoke to David and Goliath and that we can imply to our own life.
So let me pitch it to your ma one. Yes, good. It's hurting. I know I must be doing the right thing and to what am I learning and what will I do next as a framework? I think this is how we grow. And I think this is how we can stay true to this [00:24:00] idea in David and no, absolutely. And I think to build on that and I think to connect us to the next clip that we've got, I think.
What Gladwell is also calling out in the clip. We've just heard is that each challenge is going to be different from me to you. Some things for you, you might not find them so stressful. And that's possibly because of your experience, because maybe you've already overcome that challenge in your past. And now it's my turn to go through that process and learn how to respond to it.
So in this next clip we've got is. Hearing again from Gladwell. And he's going to tell us a little bit about the art of balance battling giants, as he says, and how challenges actually help us to become the best versions of ourselves. And this is what these disabilities are doing, is that among those who managed to do well with them is that they are, if they're there, they are forms of radical differentiation [00:25:00] and in any competitive environment, the person who has a rare set of.
Gifts is going to have a leg up and that's what's happening. Um, it's a intriguing, I raised the question in that chapter about whether you would wish dyslexia child and I, if I could, if I knew that my child had an above average IQ, uh, and was otherwise unencumbered with various, I would, I actually would say, yeah, why not?
Do you think if you have you then planned to have that dyslexic travel and you got one, uh, and then yeah, you, and then you did all sorts of things to help help them, that child not experience of a. Negatives of the sort that you describe as having, having stable the advantage. Yeah. Yeah. They'll you kids gotta suffer.
You can't, you [00:26:00] can't suffering is the whole point. That's what I was assuming that you'd go there. I was talking about to one of the dyslexics I talked to is that Hollywood producer, Brian Grazer. Who's a totally miserable childhood because every single morning before he goes to school, he wakes up in a cold sweat because he's a very anxious guy anyway, he can't read.
And so he, he compensates by, by about the third grade by about grade three, he figures out that he can talk. He can talk he's way after the fact, after the test is over, he's failed. He can go to the teacher and talk his way into a passing grade. And by the time he's here in middle school, he's getting pretty good at this.
And he says, by the time he's in high school, he's amazing. He's absolute confidence. He can talk his way. So what does he become? Becomes a producer. Right. And what is he famous for being the most amazing negotiator, not demand, right? He doesn't get that. His whole thing is about negotiation. He's he can talk his way out [00:27:00] of any problem.
He does not have that skill. If we put him in a special school and teach him how to read at the age of two, he needs to, he needs to have trouble reading through high school. They already develop his, so you can't. We can't fix them right now. I realize I had described this horrible Darwinian universe, but I don't know.
Do you want your kid to be a successful Hollywood producer or Larry Bird or Wayne Gretzky or not? I mean,
that's such a cheeky cliff, isn't it? A cheeky is exactly the word. It's really interesting that when you pursue. Where he was going there. He's really challenging us and saying, look, adversity is key to growing strength, inner strength. Yeah. Diversity is key. And so the post is saying, well, would you wish this upon your kids?
And [00:28:00] actually. If you just go with the thinking, what you can see is how important it is to go out into the world and to have some wins and losses. And if you use the model that we were talking about, that number one, a. It's getting tough. I'm facing adversity or maybe sensing anxiety or uncertainty. Good.
That means I'm doing the right thing. And I'm going to learn through the process as a second part. Then this really does help us become the best version of ourselves. And we're all familiar with the story of the helicopter parents, preventing their child from facing any adversity. So once they fly the coop and go out into the world, they're hopeless.
Because cause they're facing adversity and crumbling. So what you can see here, there's a real argument for going out into the world. Having some wins, having some [00:29:00] losses. I think if we want to become the best version of ourselves, we have to remember that if we stick to it, That is a huge part of winning.
And I think a technique for sticking with things is saying it's okay, it's tough. It's okay. It's natural rather than some of our default can be to fight or flight to say. Pause, take a breath and just embrace the uncertainty, embrace the adversity. And this is so fascinating Mark, because we saw this Joe Rogan and many, many, many others that we've focused and featured on the moonshots podcast.
We continue to see that regardless of how you get through getting through being resilient and knowing that. It's going to get rough on the ride and that's just part of the adventure. It seems like such an essential lesson to learn. [00:30:00] It does. You're right. Joe Rogan was talking about as well. Um, you know, remember, um, I'm even reminded of Michael J.
Michael Jordan telling us that he was he'd practice again and again and again and again, so much so that when he went up against the competition, There was nothing that he hadn't practiced. So even though he was suffering and getting exhausted in the practice and his teammates would be saying, come on, give us a break.
That suffering was the whole point. They needed to have that trouble, that challenge that our drove city in order to go out and be successful and to go and have those losses enabled them to go out and actually have those wins on the court. Yeah, it's it's it's um, it's keeps coming back time and time again.
There's this underlying formula for us, uh, to really bring our dreams to life, to build products, [00:31:00] to build careers, to build communities. Whatever it is, whatever the craft, uh, or the challenge that you're taking on, uh, sticking with it and knowing that no matter how big the mountain is to climb, you can actually do it.
And I honestly, I think sticking to it is like half the battle, right? Regardless of your potential, regardless of anything else in the world, just stick. With it, nothing happens overnight. And that's of course, another huge theme that we're seeing is that the overnight sensation is such a fallacy in this world of get rich quick on YouTube and all these sites, hassle, um, propaganda.
It is total crap. It is hard work. It's resilience. There are no shortcuts we see in every type of pursuit from the sporting field to the classroom, to [00:32:00] the, uh, to the office, it's all about, um, embracing this way of thinking. I love it. It reminds me of the, one of the key lessons we found out in outliers.
The longer you stick with it, stick with a problem, stick with a project or a challenge or a new business idea. The more likely others would have dropped out. So you can be improving your just improving while the others are leaning towards the flight aspect when you're fighting for it, they're flying from it.
And I think that's so true. It's such a big way. I think we've laid the foundation. Don't you, man. I mean already, only halfway through and I'm feeling pretty inspired by Gladwell. Yeah. Now as no doubt, all of our listeners are feeling so excited. Now they are embracing the adversity. They, uh, really pushing themselves.
We would encourage them to push themselves [00:33:00] open up their podcast app hit one of the star rating buttons on the moonshot podcast, or if you're feeling, uh, rather tempted, uh, if you've got a. Dragon on wheels sort of moment. If you are feeling that, uh, you've got gravity with your apples, get in there, wordsmith or review, share it with the people, uh, who are out there that are to learn from innovators.
Um, and just to the dreams, we'd really appreciate any ratings or reviews because that's how we keep growing. That's how we keep sharing the message and the learning out loud together. Oh, good stuff. And it really does make a difference. Doesn't it? Mike gravity, Apple, Canada. We've seen more listeners in Canada, so there's definitely it's, it's an undisputed fact.
So please, everybody go out and leave us. Even if it's a short review, that's fine by us. So Mark, as we jump into the second part [00:34:00] of the show, we've just been talking about Canada, but I'm feeling sort of a little Scandinavian now where we go next. Well, we've just heard Gladwell telling us a little bit about adversity and the, the idea of going up against the giants.
Well, let's continue that story. Let's now think about how you and I, and our listeners can begin to reframe disadvantages for the better and. This first story that Gladwell digs into is it's going to be a familiar brand for many of us, but it's a great demonstration of a business and a group of individuals having the courage to pursue their ideas, rather than having to go with the approval of their peers.
It's not enough to have a great idea and the focus and the conscientious has to see it to fruition. You must have the strength and the resolve and the courage to pursue that idea. Even when the rest of the world thinks you're insane, time and time again, if you look at the [00:35:00] stories of extraordinarily important entrepreneurs, there is almost always a moment when they are the only ones who believe in the value of what they're doing.
You know, I tell them my book, the story of my book, David and Goliath, the story of in Gabon compra, the guy who founds Ikea and the crucial moment in the, in the story of Ikea is when he faces a boycott from the other furniture manufacturers. And he's about to go out of business. And in desperation, he moves his operations across the Baltic sea from Sweden to Poland and sets up shop in Poland.
And that's what Ikea is. Ikea is essentially furniture ship flat made in Poland. That's the original elevator pitch for a Kia. What's interesting about that as he does it in 1961. At the height of the cold war at a time when Eastern West communist world and free world are closer to outright war than at any other time in history, a guy living in the West, Sweden [00:36:00] crosses the pond to Poland, the iron curtain and sets up shop.
You cannot imagine what a controversial move that was. That's like, that would be like Walmart opening operations in North Korea. Clearly it's on that level of kind of eyebrow raising. You've got to be kidding me. Who is this guy kind of thing, but he does it any persists, any turns his back on all those critics?
Why? Because he is a deeply disagreeable person. Didn't need people to agree with them, right? And that's how he's able to build Ikea this extraordinary runaway success story. That's very hard to do as human beings. We are hardwired to want the approval of our peers. Wow. What a story. Walmart opening in North Korea.
That's what it was like back in the day for Ikea when they opened in Poland. I think it's such a great story that evokes so many parallels with Elon [00:37:00] Musk, writing the checks of his last dollars for Tesla and space X. Uh, you know, the story of, um, Jeff Bezos, uh, being so committed to this big vision and he talks about be stubborn on vision, but flexible in how you get there.
And that's where I see a big intersection between Gladwell and Bezos, the really the courage to pursue your idea. And if that means, you know, opening in North Korea or Poland, and then so be it. And I think this is why you see a circle starting to complete here, because as you've reframed your disadvantages, as you reframe the way you think and have a mindset of like I'm pursuing my vision, if that means I need to go through adversity through a Valley of darkness to get there.
Then, so be it. And what we see in their success is they're prepared to [00:38:00] do it. They have the courage to stick with it, and what's so important is most people don't stick with it. And so finding that courage is essential. So my challenge for you, Mark, is when you're in a moment where you're like, Ugh, I've got to open up store in North Korea.
When you have the equivalent of own, how do you find that determination? How do you, how do you try to, to face up to those things? Cause it ain't easy. No, it's not easy. And. I think it's still something I'm working on. I think actually the Gladwell deep dive that we've done for the past month has actually helped me.
It's illuminated a couple of new ways of reframing my natural response to things, which is often the flight aspect of fight or flight instead. And particularly with David and Goliath, [00:39:00] um, This reframing of suffering, reframing, suffering, and thinking of it as a positive, I think is a pretty big one. So, you know, there's a popular, uh, positive mindset behavior that you wake up and instead of, you know, thinking, Oh, what a tough day ahead or, Oh, it's raining.
I don't want to go for a run or, Oh, I don't want to check my emails. Bye. Waking up and thinking. Okay, well, I wonder what challenge the day has in store for me today. That's actually reframing that Pat, perhaps more negative leaning way that you might've had with regards to running. Right. Instead of you're thinking, Oh, I wonder what challenge I've got today.
Oh, it's raining. All right, I'm going to get wet. This is going to be fun and try and give it a little bit of a spin. It's something to most people, but actually something that's so elegant that I think for me, that's what I've tried to do, particularly through our Malcolm [00:40:00] Gladwell deep dive in, try to look at occasional hiccups or speed bumps and think, Oh, okay, well, this is just an opportunity to.
Try something new, I guess, but am I right? You're so right. I was thinking to myself about, um, as you, as you were talking, then I'm like, well, what do I do like that? Um, to kind of reframe it and, uh, all these little reframing tactics I think are essential. Um, I think. Uh, a really, really novel, uh, sort of a bit of an outlier idea is when I'm going up a mountain, when I'm running, I smile.
Oh. So I just focused. I realized sometimes when I come to these Hills, I'm like, I wouldn't say I've got grumpy the face. Maybe it is going to be faced, but it's certainly focused. Let's say that much. [00:41:00] And so on. Like, well, why don't I just smile? Yeah. And, and I think that there's all sorts of things like, uh, just smile when you're going up the Hill, it just re re helps you re frame, um, A challenge that you're going through.
Uh, have you ever tried the old smile while you run? Yeah. Well, I was going to actually build on it. I was going to say, I suppose the Hill in this case can be a metaphor. You know, the Hill can be, uh, stealing yourself before going into a call or a meeting interview or reading your emails. If you just smile it almost.
I think it reframes your whole mood and you begin thinking, well, you know what? It's okay. It's okay. It's not a game that would downplay it a little, but at least you can think, okay. It's just one of the things I've got to do. And actually, I think it helps you kind [00:42:00] of take a step back into your present moment.
Doesn't it? You know? Well, I smiling. I mean, I'm smiling now. You can probably hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can sort of feel a little bit more. Aware, I guess. Yeah. I think it's totally true when you're running and I think it's equally true when you're going up against, um, you know, a difficult conversation, perhaps I will, I will raise the stakes here just a little bit.
Let me try this on your Mark. Ah, a, uh, Like my biggest kind of middle level habit that I attempt to kind of find that courage is to ask myself and remind myself about the things that I'm doing right now, how they relate to my mission and to my purpose, like why I'm here on this planet. So. Sometimes we fall a drift and we [00:43:00] forget that the, the, the battle that we're fighting is part of a bigger story.
We forget that we're kind of trudging through the Valley of darkness because on the other side of it is this mountain that we really, really want to climb. And I think that you're capable of. Creating a connecting line, a node, a bridge, whatever you want to call it to. I am having this really tough challenge of learning this new skill, because it will make me a better executive, a better sportsman, a better parent.
And even though I have to get up really early to do it and I'm tired and I can't seem to get it. And I've got a big deadline. Remember that? Hey. Why am I doing this? Why am I here? And I think we often lose track of the relationship between what we're doing today and our dreams of tomorrow. [00:44:00] And I think what becomes infinitely easier is to, uh, what I call attack the fear or attack the uncertainty.
Because once you realize whether through smiling up the Hill, Or whether you remind yourself of how, what you're doing today as part of your vision for yourself and your purpose for tomorrow. I think you can then use this mindset approach of saying I'm going to go at it. So rather than running away, From the challenge, you can attack the challenge.
And I have this, I tried this thing where when sometimes I'm like, Oh, I can't believe that I've got to fix this thing. Or I've this thing's really not working. Don't allow this objection to step in. Steal yourself smile. While you run up the Hill, remind [00:45:00] yourself of why you're doing it and then attack that thing.
Don't let it beat. You make a conscious decision that you are going to dive into it. You're not going to like. Skirt, the corners, skirt, the details. You're going to go right at the pimple and you're going to burst that thing. And what's so fascinating that when you make this conscious decision to attack the fear to attack the uncertainty.
Almost every single time. It's not nearly as bad as you think it is because the feeling of anxiety, I truly believe comes so much from the unknown and entertaining all the 1,000,001 ways something can go wrong. Many of those aren't even relevant, but because you haven't gotten into the detail because you didn't attack the uncertainty.
You just don't know. So you're entertaining a million diabolical scenarios when really a lot of those are off the table. It's just that you just don't [00:46:00] know because you've been running away from it. I couldn't agree more whenever I find myself particularly anxious, it's often down to the fear of the unknown.
How's he going to respond? How a feature or a part of a project is going, because I know. That I haven't asked the question and, you know, it's coupled with, with, with trust and delegation and collaboration and so on, but I think the secret, it all comes down to due to communication, you know, in, in a, in a project perspective.
Right. So if, if I know if I fear the, um, if I have an anxiety or a fear of the unknown or a challenge, I think attacking that. Is exactly the right way to go and do it. And that's just as simple as picking up the phone. Right. I think there's there's any there's any number of potential solutions that actually fundamentally.
[00:47:00] Also simple and not there, I think. And all of those, all of those might come back to this shift in mindset that we keep referring to. And I think what Malcolm Gladwell is offering up, David and Goliath is this shift. And in fact, in this area, it's clear, he's gonna really, uh, Expose the mindset. He's going to take us on a journey of the mindset, uh, through the story of David and Goliath.
So once again, let's have a little listen to mr. Malcolm Gladwell. I retell the story of David and Goliath to start the book. Because if you look at the story closely, everything you think was a disadvantage about David actually isn't and Goliath is not what he looks like. He looks like this indomitable giant.
In fact, he probably had a medical condition called acromegaly, which is zealous. This is sort of. A size, then you bring your medicine in the Bible, dude. It is hilarious because if you, the minute you started the, into these things, you discovered these little pockets [00:48:00] have been arguing about these things.
For years, for 50 years, endocrinologists have been arguing about whether Goliath had a tumor on his pituitary gland. We should explain his height because when you have a tumor in your pituitary gland, It over you over produce human growth hormone and you get really Andre, the giant red, this condition.
Yeah. Seven foot, four foot four artifacts is that it can constrict your optic nerves and leave you largely with very, very limited eyesight. So he, the, one of the explanations for why Goliath behave so strangely and why he doesn't perceive that David is not intending to fight them. I mean, David comes down the mountain and he's got no sword and no armor.
He clearly has not intending. To fight a sword fight and Goliath just sits there, like he's oblivious. Well, the answer is maybe he could only see this far. Right? So it changes everything. When you realize, wait a minute, the giant is weighed down by a hundred pounds of armor and can't see anything he's like, like [00:49:00] this.
Right. So I do more with that story, but it's all about this. Trying to get people to take a step back and understand that we couldn't give up because we have these. Or feel powerless because we have these empty definitions or flawed definitions of advantage disadvantages. Aren't always disadvantages.
There's more definition of, um, you know, positivity or positives in a project. You know, it's not always going to be the case. You know, if you, if you think about the Ikea example or maybe we think about Spielberg or Branson or Churchill who also had dyslexia, the Gladwell calls out in the book, the natural inclination would be, Oh no, I can't possibly compete.
With Goliath, because look how small I am. Look at my size speed, whatever. Actually, [00:50:00] when you remove your kind of predisposition of advantage disappear, it's a lot wider. It's not as black and white as he think, right. That's so, so true. I think what all of this is creating a bit of a groundswell as we go through all these ideas in Malcolm Gladwell's book, David and Goliath.
And I think the way we can really pay this off is a really interesting habit. I mean, we're obviously going in this direction of like reframing how you see disadvantage and, um, there's this whole. Question of like, okay, so what do we need to do? And, um, I think, um, this next clip that we're going to play is from our friend, uh, Brian Johnson at optimize.
Isn't it? It is. Yep. Correct. So what we're going to do now is we're going to look at, um, some really practical advice. Before we wrap up the show, let's get super practical [00:51:00] to make sure that we can, uh, find our inner David when facing. Goliath is he shares research on again, a bunch of stuff. This one test, uh, that's challenging, right?
You can test college students on it and see how they do and other people obviously. Um, but the basic idea is it's a challenging test and. The way that the researchers made people better at the test. It's like a logical test right along the lines of a bat and a ball cost, a dollar and 10 cents. The bat costs a dollar more than the ball.
How much do each cost? That would be an example of a question in this little test right now. That's with other questions, you got to think about it. Paradoxically. When they presented the test. In a font that was really hard to read. It was this italicized [00:52:00] 10% gray font, but you had to strain to read. It's kind of like annoyingly hard to read.
When you made that hard test, a little bit harder. Performance went up. Unbelievably significantly up, right? Desirable difficulties. You'd never that making a hard thing, harder wood performance, but it did. And you can talk about all the reasons why, but the fact that it, it actually works to the individual's benefit is remarkable.
And he uses this in the context of telling stories about individuals who. Were dyslexic. And they had an incredibly hard time reading, but they compensated by learning other skills. They learned how to listen really well and how to interact socially in ways that they would not have necessarily learned.
Have they been great readers? A disadvantage had an advantage and there were abs actually desirable difficulties. Now Gladwell makes the point that not everyone navigates those difficulties well, but [00:53:00] those who do. Are better off as a result of the difficulty than otherwise. Yeah. Well, Brian Johnson from optimizes corny out there is, is again this reframing of the disadvantages and looking out for desirable difficulties.
And I think actually what's particularly interesting is when he calls out what Gladwell, um, acknowledges in the book, David and Goliath is a, not everybody has the. Ability or the, I suppose the awareness to do this. And then when you've stepped back or paused and thought about it in your own way, and for action, did, will you take advantage of this?
So there'll be a lot of us who. We'll just see it as a difficulty and never be able to kind of use that as additional fuel to innovate and learn from and Gladwell Avaya. [00:54:00] Brian Johnson here is saying is those of us who can, those of us who can reframe and see those difficulties as desirable are going to see ourselves.
Stepping up into the realm of, you know, the names that were dropped earlier in earlier in the episode. Absolutely. That's so true. And I think the good news for all of our listeners and ourselves included is this is a mindset and you have a hundred percent control of how you think. This starts with mindset, knowing that we have, I have a floor definition of advantage and that in every disadvantage is actually advantage.
We heard about this, uh, young, uh, group of girls playing basketball. We've heard about these stellar, uh, accomplish entrepreneurs. I mean, it starts with mindset. And I think if we have done [00:55:00] anything today together on this show is we've exposed how to think about it, how to go about, uh, this course of resistance and knowing that if it's tough, that's good, you're doing the right thing.
Just don't give up, have that courage to keep ongoing and to pursue your dreams. Because if we do that, Um, it's part of a bigger story. And in fact, we've got one final clip Mark that brings it home. What are we going to listen to? You gonna listen to Malcolm Gladwell, telling us a little bit about all you need is that belief and the discipline and the determination to make it happen.
So here's Gladwell closing the show for us today, encouraging us to always have faith, courage, but also determination. Nobody who is talking about your book in the mainstream media is mentioning the elevate. You say that there are three things, is faith, courage and [00:56:00] determination. Yeah. Nobody's talking about faith.
It's it's not thing. I mean, this book began as I just wanted in the manner of my previous books to do this kind of use a lot of social science work through theories. Tell some stories about the fact that disadvantages are often advantageous. And advantages can be, but by the end of the book, I realized that what I really wanted to talk about was faith was about weapons of the spirit.
I have a chapter where I talk about this little town in the mountains of France during the state, it was a bunch of Huguenots to the dissident Protestant sect in a very Catholic country, up in the mountains. During the second world war, they decided they were going to let, they were going to Harbor any Jewish refugees that came to their door and they Jewish refugees came by the thousands.
They took them in. And they told the Nazis, we're taking them in. If you want to come and get them, we're not going to give them to you. Okay. Will you do to us? It's this extraordinary story. And I, and if you [00:57:00] read into it, they had nothing. They had no resources, no weapons. They refuse to lie. They said they weren't using.
Seat. All they had was their face. And that was enough. They felt that their faith was every bit the match for whatever the Nazis threw at them. You cannot read. I don't care if you who are the most dyed in the wool atheist, you cannot read that story and not come away with a renewed appreciation for the power that faith gives people.
Believe in something. I mean, this is really kind of ends up this idea of David and Goliath because yes, as we talked about, there are a ton of mental models. There are a ton of various, the clinical and logical steps that you can have in your mindset, but the fuel for your fire, the thing that will help you.
Be resilient. The thing that will help you, uh, [00:58:00] embrace adversity to lean into desirable difficulties, uh, to move to Poland in the middle of the, uh, the cold war, uh, is if you really believe in something, well, you can call it faith or whatever, believe in your purpose in yourself and the people around you and put your best foot forward.
Even in the face of uncertainty, that truly is what faith looks like in the modern world. And I think that is such an app, a bookend, if you should say that, not only to this show about David and Goliath, but to the entire Malcolm Gladwell series. I think that was a rather tasty thought from Malcolm himself.
I couldn't agree more. Tipping point to blink, to outliers, to David and Goliath say that belief, personal awareness, reframing certain mindsets. These are [00:59:00] the key lessons and takeaways that I'm getting from Malcolm Gladwell's work. And it's pretty inspiring. It's very, very relatable challenges that he calls out, but each of them is so actionable that we can just begin working on straightaway.
Yep. I absolutely agree. And I think this has been one of the most exciting dense a series that we've had. This is right up there with Adam Grant and Simon Sinek. I mean, Gladwell. I've got a renewed respect for this man. I'm a big fan. I've really, really enjoyed him. And the listeners you guys will probably know.
I thoroughly enjoyed the James Claire, um, as well as the Adam Grant episodes, but it's, I think Gladwell he's he's up there for me. For sure. Well, Mark, uh, another great, uh, series, uh, it feels like it's, it's really, um, [01:00:00] had quite, uh, the effect on you. Hasn't it. Do you think any series has really spoken to you like this one?
No, I, I think this one has been particularly. Um, empowering actually, it's, it's approachable. It's, there's a lot of great lessons that are quite, um, uh, dare I say, easy to grasp, um, not to downplay the quality of it at all. Um, in his talent as a journalist is to explain it in ways that are, are great to grasp.
I think the series as a whole has been really, really powerful and our Gladwell month has been, has been, um, incredibly illuminating. It has hasn't it? It has. Hasn't it. Now we would love to hear, it's obviously been incredibly powerful for you, but who else would we like to hear from? Who else would we like feedback on this Malcolm Gladwell series?
I'd love to hear from. Those those third parties might [01:01:00] who, who tune in every week to hear learning out loud? It's you listeners we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear any innovators, any, any, um, um, sportsman, any individuals that you'd like us to dig into and learn out loud from. Drop us a rating or review in your app store of choice.
Go and visit us at moonshots or even drop us a note. Drop us an email@helloatmoonshots.com and we'll make sure to get hold and, and reply to you. We can't wait to hear from you. So there you have it. Um, another series is in the bag. Okay. Thank you so much, uh, to you. Um, but if you, I thought for just a moment, uh, that, uh, the challenges were complete, we're gonna hear from, uh, David Goggins.
In our next episode, who's an ultra [01:02:00] runner, tried athlete. He was a Navy seal. He has an amazing story. And I tell you what, if anyone could bring a little bit of inspiration and energy to our show. Wait till you hear David Goggins is going to be at. Epic one. So it'll be a fabulous twist and turn in the moonshot story.
So I hope you've got your high intensity interval training. Ready, Mark. Because it's going to be, it's going to be a workout. The next show. I'm excited. It's going to be a fun, I wonder what lessons we can take from Gladwell and via David Goggins. That's going to be great. Yeah. No, that's going to be fantastic.
All right, Mark. Thank you. Thank you to you for joining me on this journey. And most importantly, thank ti thank you to you. All our listeners who are tuning in from all over the world from Mexico, all the way to remain here to Bulgaria from Latvia to Taiwan, [01:03:00] we welcome all of the new listeners that keep on joining us every single week.
I can see Brazil and Russia. We got a ton of listeners there. We welcome all of you to this journey. And none better than Malcolm Gladwell can really summarize the moonshots philosophy, which is all about resilience and not giving up. And when tough things come your way, say yes. Please. So go out there and really, really fight for what you believe in, make your vision come true and look for those desirable difficulties because they will only make you stronger.
So if this is an invitation to all of you to go out and find your inner David to go and fight your Goliath, and the key secret to success will not only be resilience, but it will be the power for you to find the faith, to believe in something. And we hope that. You found the faith in yourself, listening to the moonshots of cast [01:04:00] that Suresh.