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As the first season of the podcast draws to a close I look back at some of the most inspiring moments from the season including from conversations with Ben Francis, Krissy Cela, Chris Williamson, Unjaded Jade, Mrwhosetheboss and Dr Grace Lordan. One of the biggest lessons I've learned from all the guests who have appeared this season is that we should embrace uncertainty and the idea of having a plan is a bit of a myth because really we're all working things out as we go along. I also want to say a big thank you if you've tuned into the podcast each week and an even bigger thank you if you've left a review on apple podcasts and subscribed because that really does help other people hear about the podcast. I hope you enjoy this season round-up and see you in the new year in Season 2.
Dr Ali Abdaal is the world’s most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isn’t discipline, it’s joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Ali’s cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Ali’s a firm believer that happiness isn’t the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
Ali Abdaal 0:00
Hey friends, welcome back to deep dive. So it's the end of season one. It's the first time officially that we're doing the podcast. And in this episode, we're doing a little bit of a roundup of some of my favourite slash most inspiring moments from various guests of season one, over the last couple of months, I have interviewed slash had conversations with 12 Different people on the podcast. And we're already well underway into recording some of the interviews for season two as well, which is kind of fun. And it has been super nice to have the privilege to speak to these people, mostly in real life, because in the past have done remote interviews, but it's just the vibe is so much better in real life. That's been really awesome. And to hear the response. And the episodes has been really cool as well. Please do keep the nice comments coming on YouTube and on Twitter. And especially if you can leave a review on Apple podcasts. I think probably the biggest lesson that I've learned from the people that I've interviewed is about embracing uncertainty. I'm going through a bit of like an uncertainty ish time in my life right now where I've just quit being a doctor. And I'm not trying to figure out what the hell do I do with my life. And the good thing from basically everyone that I've spoken to on the podcast is that no one really knows what they're doing. They're all kind of making it up as they go along. And one thing leads to another leads to another. And what a lot of people have said is just that the idea of having a plan and sticking to it is kind of a bit of a myth, especially in this world as things change so much. And so that's really been one of my key takeaways just to be more embracing of uncertainty, and more like, you know, I'll try and do my best with what's with what's going on. I will try to enjoy the journey as much as possible rather than being fixated on the destination. And just kind of see, see how things go and just not be overly beating up of myself if things don't follow a prescribed plan that I maybe made a few months ago or a few years ago. Anyway, we're not gonna include segments from six of the guests that we've had on the podcast so far we've got Ben Francis, Chrissy Chela, Chris Williamson, unjaded Jade, Mr. Who's the boss, and Dr. Grace Lordan. And these are some of the clips that I found most inspiring from season one. So I hope you enjoy them. They start off as like a band of Band of Brothers, like a handful of people in a shed. Yeah, radiator is a game changing expensive, Game Changing addition to the business. And now project shark is a billion plus dollar company, you're the new CEO of it. How many employees do you do you know, we just over 700 700 Do you sell all over the world with offices all around the world? That's gonna feel pretty wild.
Ben Francis 2:16
Like, honestly, I still walk into the HQ. It's gorgeous HQ. And as the sort of the big logo on the front, over the road, we've got our lifting club got like a gym manufacturing facility studios, I do walk in and like, I do still get goosebumps, because it's, it's such an amazing place. And there's a buzz like you've got to visit because as soon as you walk in the door, there's a buzz there and everyone's lovely, everyone's pulling in the same direction. Everyone really understands why we do what we do. Everyone stands the area that they sort of fit in with that sort of wider plan. It's it's such a lovely place to be.
Ali Abdaal 2:50
So it's interesting you say that, like everyone's pulling in the same direction? Because I think I feel like, this is an issue we're having, as we expanded from three people to 12 people. Bye, bye. I'm now having starting to do things like defining our vision, and where do we want to be in X number of years and KPIs and goals and all this stuff that in the past? I would have thought this is all just corporate bullshit. Like, who cares about any of that? Presumably, like, like, what was your journey through kind of being more business about it?
Ben Francis 3:19
So what you're going through. Yeah, so we did that I used to hate the word corporate. And you're going through for reading between the lines, what I actually think is the most difficult change, I think this is one of the most difficult things for any entrepreneur or business person. And by the way, not even owning your own business, if you're running or working in a great business, it's so difficult to sort of distribute that control. And I think those that can do that, then after that, it's not plain sailing. But if you've then done that, it's like, you know, it's like a muscle memory, right? If you continue to do this, I think scaling becomes so much easier. I'll give you so my sort of breakdown, I sort of break it down into three areas. And I think every great business person needs to reinvent themselves over and over again. So you can't become too like, tied in or emotionally attached to sort of, say who you are, in many respects. So at the start, I found, I had a great creative vision, I didn't exist, I had a great idea of where I wanted us to be. And I felt like I dragged the business to where I wanted us to be. And that sounds a bit sort of direct. But you know, it could be having a great creative vision, it could be great at knowing product, it could be great at whatever it is, but you because you tend to be a one man band, or there's not many people involved. You just do what the hell you want, when you want. And it's very instinctive. Now, you'll then get to a stage where you've got people around you, it might be five people, it might be 10 people, it might be 30 people. And an instinctive way of running things is still great. But you can't just do things on a whim because you fancy it you have to then learn to work in a team. And I don't mean when I say no team, I mean, you are part of the team and anyone that's managed a team knows that the team doesn't work for you, you work for them. And you need to make sure that you're really understanding how to work with each different type of people's person. So Have some people will love to be organised and they will love lots of different catch ups. And you know, some people will be highly creative. Some people will be highly logical. Some people, you'll have to spend six weeks trying to buy them into a new day a new idea. Some people have to spend six seconds and it's about learning how to work with all these different people. So you've gone from dragging the business to where you want it to be learning to work with new people. And then that's it sounds like to a degree, what you're going through slash the next stage, which is like, okay, you don't want to work with people. How do we galvanise them around a vision or a mission? How do we make them understand where they fit in with? How do we make them understand that? You know, the team that we're working with Touchwood is greater than the sum of its parts? And really understanding how to articulate yourself and your vision and essentially learn how to inspire people. I think that's again, it's very tough. And I hear people a lot of the time saying like, Oh, you know, one facet of their personality. I just mean what am I like? I'm a bit unorganised. Well, when you're at that level, there's not an there's no excuse for being an organised like, Yes, I am an organised, but you do something about it, you either fix it yourself, or you build the team in a way that negates that weakness. Does that make sense? It's, I think it gets a bit more serious at that point. And you have to learn new skills and tours. That's why I love the job so much and feel like you've got the best job in the world because you're constantly learning new things and constantly reinventing yourself.
Ali Abdaal 6:26
Let's say someone's watching this. And they're thinking they're they want to get started being an entrepreneur. Maybe they're sort of late teens, early 20s. Haven't really started anything yet, but pretty inspired by you and your journey. Any kind of advice you give?
Ben Francis 6:40
Yeah, I mean, it's fairly standard, right? You have to do what you love. Because otherwise you'll end up you'll end up giving up. I'm a firm believer now that there's no need to small like, especially with the internet being so vast, I always think it sounds stupid saying it. Now, if I'd have said, as a kid, I want to be a professional gamer growing up, yeah, my mom would have been like, You're nuts. Whereas now, it's like a legitimate sport career and everything in between. Like, even I guess with yourself, it would have been so difficult for you to articulate what you do. Now, as a kid. I just think there's no need to small so I think whatever it is double down on it and just genuinely give it a go. GymShark was the seventh business website product that I've made, and the other six failed miserably. Now, unfortunately, that's not a sexy story. So no one talks about the failed apps, the failed websites, they only talk about the one that did well. And it's a consistent theme on everyone else that's successful that I've met, they failed miserably so many times. And they've been endlessly optimistic about it. And they've just gone again and again and again.
Ali Abdaal 7:39
So it's one of the early chapters, you talk about finding your why. And you reference Simon Sinek start with why. I wonder when it comes to sort of new entrepreneurs or people starting out either in entrepreneurship or being a creator? To what extent do you think it's important to start with, to start with that mission or purpose,
Krissy Cela 7:59
because it's very important, it's so important, it's so important. If you are starting a brand, if you want to start a brand, like if you don't know your why just don't do it? Like I can't stress that enough, if you are starting a brand to make money are like, no, no, you should never start a brand to make money. If your core if your if your core ideology is profit. If your core value is we aim to make 100 million in the first five years, if that's your number one core value. I'm not saying that shouldn't be a core value. I'm saying if that's your number one core value, you're going to plumb it, because every decision you make will be profit led, not mission led, there's a complete difference. So you need your why you need to know why you want to start why you want to start what is the reason? And it's a very big question to ask yourself because you'll start understanding that it's deeper than what you first perceived. When women come to me and go. I really want to lose 10 pounds. I go why? Yeah, why did why? Tell me why? Because I really want to know why. Oh, because I know I look better. Okay, but why does that matter? I know I'll feel better. Okay, but why? But why but why? Truth is that bride that wants to lose 10 pounds for her wedding day. It's not that she wants to lose 10 pounds is that she wants to feel confident in her wedding day. So actually, it's not about the pounds she loses. It's the effort she's putting in daily to feel confident on her wedding day, there's a complete difference. So that y is going to keep her driven longer than constantly stepping on the scales and seeing those numbers not shift.
Ali Abdaal 9:41
I think it's similar on the let's say if someone wants to start a YouTube channel, if you if you do it for the sake of wanting to make money from it. It's really hard to keep that motivation going to sustain that if you do it for the sake of chasing views. It's really hard to keep going but if you do it for -
Krissy Cela 9:56
You're gonna get really sad. You're gonna get upset You're gonna think you're not good enough, you're going to cross compare. You're going to just never be satisfied. I've been there, like, I can genuinely speak from experience, and you're going to completely and truly fuck your mind up.
Ali Abdaal 10:12
So one thing I was intrigued about, well, you sort of you're one of your sort of life philosophies. That sounds like a grandiose way of putting it. But well, one of your life philosophies is that you don't see you seem not, you seem to not care about goals. And that really resonated with me, because I also think goals are a bit overrated. And it's more about the journey rather than about the destination. And that's something I've been I've been like spilling on my YouTube channel for the last like four years. And I read that in the book, he said something along that effect as well that like, you know, it's it's less about the destination. It's not about like the motivation. It's not about the goal. Yeah. Elaborate on that.
Krissy Cela 10:47
Motivation is so overrated. She's just, like, charming and just just like, shut up. Like a hater. She's, she comes one day, she leaves another day. She's there in a moment. And then I'm like, where is she gone. And then it's just like, I can't be bothered with it. And I can't express enough how you need to stop liner motivation. start relying more on building consistency and discipline in your day to day life. Motivation is not something that you can sustain for the rest of your life. Because there's going to be moments where you don't want to get out of bed, there's going to be moments where you want to eat your favourite pizza and watch Netflix and skip the gym totally fine. There's going to be moments where you actually don't want to come to work, even though it's your biggest passion, because you're tired, you're drained, you're exhausted mentally and physically. But consistency is what makes you go, I'm gonna go to the gym, but I'm going to come back home also and eat my pizza and watch Netflix with my partner. I'm going to go to work but only for two hours. You know, it's, it's, that's what consistency is to me. Okay, because my sort of like showing up showing up. Yeah. Because motivation to me is either or.
Ali Abdaal 12:00
Okay? Yeah, I'm either motivated to go for that 5k run or I'm going to lie in bed and..
Krissy Cela 12:03
Yes, consistency to me as if I don't want to do it one day, I'll go for a little bit. Okay, I'll give it a go. If I don't want to show up, fine. I'll take my meetings from home. It's more flexible. It's more understanding. And I see these components as actual humans. That sounds really weird. But I see motivation is like this sassy diva. She sometimes wants to go on stage and give her best show. But sometimes she just wants to tell her team to go away and she's not going on stage. Then I see consistency as like this really like humble, genuine person that wants to help you. And I think people need to start perceiving certain elements is personas, because it will make you kind of distinguish which one you want to aim for more. Which one you want to build a relationship with more.
Ali Abdaal 12:57
Interesting, okay, so you wake up in the morning, your alarm goes off at half past five. And you're thinking, oh, I'm feeling a bit tired today. What do you what do you tell yourself?
Krissy Cela 13:06
This was the other day for me actually, my alarm went off at half five, ironically. And then I was like, it's cold. It's dark. I'm in England. Like it's too cold now. Yeah, like, nearly November, and I was I'm so tired and I want to go to the gym. And then I said to myself, right? Listen, Chrissy go to the gym today. If you'd feel like this tomorrow, give it a mess. That's what I said to myself. Like, and I did today. I didn't go to the gym. I didn't go to the gym. I was still so tired. I gave myself an extra two hours sleep instead. And that's what I needed. Yeah. But if I'm doing that every day, that's not good.
Chris Williamson 13:47
Here's a question for you, man. Do you think that people love you for what you do or for who you are?
Ali Abdaal 13:55
So over the last few months, I really thought it was for what I do. Especially when it came to friend friendship and stuff. I thought that I just didn't quite. I thought it was the things that I was doing. That were the reasons why people wanted to be friends with me. And it was it was surprising when I mentioned this to a few friends. And they were like, No, you actually don't need to do any like. Because if I think about the people I'm friends with, I'm not friends with them for what they do. I'm friends of them for who they are. And it took other people pointing out to me that well, that's how other people feel about you for me to think oh my god. And that was quite like a profound realisation for me and made me realise that I can just sort of be myself. But in but before I'd been like, be yourself, it's all just BS because like, choose yourself and all that kind of stuff.
Chris Williamson 14:46
I got another question. Yeah. Do you love yourself for who you are for what you do?
Ali Abdaal 14:51
Oh, good question. I think I love myself for what I do.
Chris Williamson 14:54
So here's the problem, right. We want the world to love us for who we are not for what we do. You don't want To love our achievements, we want to feel like we're worth something ourselves. Yep. However, we love ourselves for what we do, not who we are. So we're asking the world to do something that we don't do ourselves, I want you to love me for who I am not what I do. Meanwhile, I'm gonna love myself for what I do, not who I am. Because I feel like when I achieved something that I feel like I'm worth something more to myself, when I hit that next subscriber count when I get that gold plaque, diamond plaque when I hit a new, best number of players, when I get more people on my academy, when I put more people into my club night, when I sleep with a more popular girl, when I hit a new number of followers on Instagram, all of these different metrics are things that are hiding the fact that we don't want to give ourselves self love for what it is that we who we genuinely are. What do you mean by love yourself? Feel comfortable and feel like you are sufficient. Independent of how you perform day to day in the world, the fact that you stripped of all of your achievements, YouTube channels gone, podcasts gone, degrees are gone. All of that stuff. Are you isolated and stripped bare still worth something to the world? And do you feel like people would still love you and still care about you? That's a good question. It's a difficult one. It's a very difficult one. So I got that realisation from Aubrey Marcus, another dis anyone that's resonating with this, I'll give you the link for this episode with Aubrey. He's just sold on it to Unilever for a huge, undisclosed number like hundreds of millions of dollars, right? The link will be in the show notes below. He said he bolstered his entire life with sex and money. So he'd spent his entire life chasing women and trying to work. He's just sold his company for hundreds of hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. And he's just got married, what's left for him? All of the things that he used to be chasing now he's completed them. And he had an existential crisis. Because he said all of these things that I thought would fulfil me, I've now done it. So who am I, I'd wrapped up so much of my self worth in the fact that I was chasing this dream dragon of a woman and have a figure in my bank account. And now it's got to the stage where actually who am I without all of that? Or who am I once all of that's been completed. And this comes back to what happened when I first started a business. And again, this is another element for young business people. If you attach your sense of self worth to the success of the business, you are on a path toward misery. The reason is that you don't get to control the fucking market. Right? The market will do what the market will do, and it does not give one single shit about you. It doesn't care. So why would you say that your self worth is based on trends in the market. You're literally externalising your sense of well being to other people. That's the same as that's the same as people that leave notifications on their phone. It's exactly the same, okay, you're allowing the entire world, anybody on the planet to intrude on your day whenever they want. This is the same with your business, you're allowing the response of the market to determine your self worth every time that you put a product out or run an event or release a YouTube video. If you feel crap when your YouTube video underperforms, but feel amazing, when your YouTube video over performs. That's fine, that's realistic, you care about performing well. But if you genuinely feel like you are worth more or worth less, that's a different step, you've crossed a line. And this is something that I still fight with all the time, I still struggle with it. This is me understanding the path but not having completed the path.
Ali Abdaal 18:40
So you're on this kind of 12 to 18 month journey of self discovery. And you said that one of the things that helped is asking yourself, Is this thing that I'm doing consistent with the person that I want to be? Yes. What were some other things that you figured out about yourself along that that path?
Chris Williamson 18:55
Not telling the truth was was a huge one that had just been people would ask me my opinion on something and I would tell them what I thought they wanted to hear, okay, not what I genuinely believed, because I presumed that that would make them like me, because I just wanted to be like, and this was funded or fueled by being a club promoter, which is very transient and transactional. And there is a degree of performative nature on the front door of a club now, if someone says, Alright, mate, how are you and you go, actually, man, my dog just died and blah, blah, blah. But no, I just wanted you to say yes, and give me a stamp and go let me in. So there is that was reinforced by work. Some of the other things were mostly to do with opening up and being being vulnerable because I was in a hyper masculine, very cool guy world. And it wasn't. It wasn't. How would you say conducive to having a bad day and opening up to someone about it? It's another challenge as well for anyone that's a business owner or at the top of the tree that's listening. You can feel like because you are the Have your business, that showing any form of weakness shows a weakness in the business, that if you underperform, or you have a bad day that the people who look up to you, your subordinates and your employees within the business will see you, as less will see you as unworthy of leading them because who's who's leader would spend a couple of days in bed because he's feeling down about whatever might have occurred. Another thing that I realised was working, working so hard, that you have a miniature breakdown, which for me manifested as being in bed for a couple of days, and I just couldn't be bothered to get out and it felt like depression, but I think it was just like, smaller key breakdowns. And it always happened around Freshers Week. So one month of constant buildup constant and this was when I'd stopped partying so much as well. Releasing event after event after event all on social media, then going and working on the night, four or five hours sleep, then get up the next day, go to the office, make sure that everything was sorted, run another event, fill it cash, the tills go home, do the next thing, or is this working, this DJ is cancelled blah, blah, blah, just constant intensity, start of October every single year, I would always spend a couple of days in bed, my mind, why is it I always end up feeling a little bit sort of shitty after this. Because going so hard that you end up snapping is not a sustainable work protocol just doesn't, you can't keep doing that and expect to get consistent results. And punishing yourself because you don't have the tolerance. It's like having eyes that are bigger than your stomach. It's like having an appetite for work, which is bigger than your capacity for work. And this is something in a productivity world. Like I'll get more, I'll just get more done. That is a route toward disaster. For Chris sparks says in order to pick something up, you have to put something down. And the presumption is if I want to be more productive, I will just down regulate my sleep or up regulate my efficiency until I fit this new thing in Yeah. But you're already working close to your maximum capacity. Because if you weren't, you would be doing more. Most people that are driven type A personalities are already working close to their capacity. And then when you because you see all of your own inefficiencies, right? You think Yeah, but I spent 30 minutes a day on YouTube. So if I add this new thing, and I'll just get rid of that 30 minutes a day. It's like no, the 30 minutes a day on YouTube is there because you need a fucking break from all the work you're doing. That's going to stay when you add this in the place it's going to come off is going to be optional things that really matter. like spending time with friends and family like chilling out on a weekend like getting more sleep. That's what's going to really really stink. So those are some of the realisations work less open up more be truthful. Realise that you have curiosities and intellectual desires and stuff that maybe don't align with the person that you thought you were.
Ali Abdaal 22:53
Because you've talked in a few videos about like manifestation and stuff like what are what is the so I've read the secrets. Haven't read this. Okay. And everyone, everyone I've I've heard everyone I've heard speak about the secret does it in very like disparaging terms like, well, this manifest is all like BS. Be like talk about it sincerely. Yeah. It seems to be like What is manifestation to you? And yeah, how does it manifest in your life?
Jade Bowler 23:21
Okay, so to me, it's kind of common sense, okay? In a way, if you want something, you're going to have to say it out loud, you're going to have to take actions towards it. And you're also going to probably need a bit of luck, because that's how life works. And that's kind of common sense. You know, like, if you want to a certain job, if you want to be a doctor, you first got to decide that that's something you really want. You've got to be very specific say, Okay, I probably in the next five years, I'm going to have to apply for med school and probably going to want to go to maybe this university, then you can say out loud, you can write it down, it becomes kind of a clear thought. And then you have to use Wait, let me say that again. Just through Yeah, like putting it down on paper, you're already thinking about actions of how you're going to go towards that. Well, that's like working harder for certain grades. And then the element of luck. That I guess the Law of Attraction comes into, you know, you can call it synchronicity. You can call it luck. You can call it the universe and call it whatever you want to but there's always an element of that. And so the law of attraction is that to me, it's you decide something and you get really clear on what it is you want. And then you can also assist that thing with visualisations like the more you can picture yourself having that thing, the more likely you are to have it just because you're going to shape your actions towards also getting it.
Ali Abdaal 24:40
So what would the visualisation thing look like?
Jade Bowler 24:44
So I think this falls into the realm of meditation, okay, for example, like closing your eyes. I think about this with an exam, like the night before an exam. If you close your eyes and you picture yourself in the example, most people first thing to think of is stress. Yeah. like flipping through the paper, you've got no time. And you're kind of manifesting that version of you being stressed without you doing anything about it. So in order for you to do the opposite, you'd have to visualise yourself, being there being calm, being rational, being focused, and like, you know, feeling quite confident, kind of fake it till you make it. And the more that you picture that, imagine yourself in it, yeah, then the more likely you are to borrow from that visualisation and actually do it. So yeah, it's kind of just imagining the best case scenario, but that makes you more likely to also do that scenario. Okay. Does that make sense?
Ali Abdaal 25:36
Yeah, it does. I feel like I sometimes accidentally do this without realising I'm doing this. There was this guided meditation thing I did the other day. Which was this sort of about imagining your life? Some years in the future? What does your house look like? What the family look like? What are you spending your time doing? And before doing it, I was like, This is gonna be some stupid meditation thing. Yeah. And then I did it. I was like, 20 minutes. And I was like, Oh, wow, I've just never spent any time thinking in the future. And I had, like, a very specific sort of vision of what like, my future house might look like. And you know, it's like, oh, you know, in this in this vision, like, you know, the, the wife is tucking the two kids into bed. There's like a third one on the way we've got a little fireplace. I've got like, my little desk in the corner that has like an iMac on it. What else? It's like a guitar and playing the guitar. It's like a dog. And it's like, oh, this is kind of nice. And since doing that, like last week, I have been thinking back to that. And thinking, I wonder what sort of dog I want, like, and it's just, like, just random. I very rarely think what sort of dog do I want in the future? But the fact that I had I did that visualisation thing is now like a thing where I feel like, oh, yeah, I'm probably gonna get a dog in the future. That's so cool. And so I don't know, I feel like, I want to do more in the way of like this sort of vision boarding eat type stuff.
Jade Bowler 27:00
Oh, awesome. I'm really good. Yeah, that's basically what the law of attraction is, or at least the way I think about it, it's just getting clear on your vision for your life, which we don't do enough. And I don't I'm not clear on that. But as soon as you know, you start to have an idea. It does sort of work its way into your mind more, and then you're more likely to make it happen.
Ali Abdaal 27:17
Would you be open to sharing some of the things in your vision board? Was like, a private thing?
Jade Bowler 27:22
It's kind of private. Because I don't know. Like, if this is actually what I want.
Ali Abdaal 27:27
Okay. No, fair enough. Have you found that the manifesting stuff helping another aspect of life as well?
Jade Bowler 27:35
Yeah, I think in terms of confidence.
Ali Abdaal 27:37
Okay as in you imagine yourself as being more confident that you are more confident? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Right. Like, to make it Yeah.
Jade Bowler 27:47
Okay. Oh, even for example, with the book, like, when I was writing this book, when I had to go down and sit down and you know, was dreading the writing process, visualising myself as someone who had written the book who had finished it, and was receiving a nice review from someone about how it helped them, but not in like a stressful way just like, oh, you know, that was, this was really helpful to them, things like that, you know, it just it helps you then find that motivation to sit down and write.
Ali Abdaal 28:14
Okay, that's very interesting. And you do you do do this like activity? Do you have like a slot in your calendar for like, manifesting time? Or, like, how does it work within your life?
Jade Bowler 28:24
Because I have a solid routine of meditation. Some of these meditations I choose to do on that day could be in the realm of manifestation,
Ali Abdaal 28:32
Okay, you type in manifestation meditation, YouTube, and someone will give you a guided tour. Exactly. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I guess that that will spin that thing that I did the other day, which is just like someone talking. Yeah. Like, close your eyes. Imagine yourself five years from now. Yeah, think about the sound think about the feelings that kind of stuff.
Jade Bowler 28:48
Or you can just imagine if you did that meditation every day, like everyday you to have add to that visual. Yeah, definitely. Like I have a dog and like I'm starting to see like, you know, like what I like a prude on the next day. You do the meditation you're like actually, no, it's a golden retriever. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 29:02
Okay, that's interesting, cuz it gets in my head meditation is like you sit there doing nothing for
Jade Bowler 29:08
so many different types of visualisations meditations, they're all like breathing frameworks, just being present. And you know, hearing everything around you engaging with your senses. There's loads
Ali Abdaal 29:19
and you don't need to, I guess, again, when it comes to meditation, I think I overthink it. And like, I need to find the perfect like path. Whereas it sounds like what you're doing just like typing some random meditation on YouTube, depending on what you're feeling and just go for it. Exactly. Like obviously, good.
Jade Bowler 29:34
Yeah. Because I know that the practice of meditation generally is good. Doesn't really matter what it is like just closing my eyes and like forcing myself to breathe for like five to 10 minutes. I'm showing up like I'm doing the work. You know, it doesn't need to be a perfect meditation every day. And if I like can do again,
Ali Abdaal 29:51
I don't look at my metrics at all. So I would love to learn from you about like, what can I be doing? How much time do you spend in the YouTube Analytics?
Arun Maini 29:58
I look at it for every single A video that I post. So two days after it's gone live, I'll kind of I'll spend a good half an hour just going through it being like, what countries did this hit? How long did these people stay on for? When did the majority drop off? Was there a significant spike or a significant dip? Did certain parts make people go back? Things like that? Because you can see all of it. It's like, why wouldn't you? Well, you don't. But I think you should.
Ali Abdaal 30:23
I really think I should as well.
Arun Maini 30:24
So I found things like, for example, if I ask people to subscribe really early in the video, it was detrimental, because you'd get a drop of like 20% of viewers potentially. But they wouldn't be subscribing they just be irritated by the fact you've asked them to subscribe without showing them why Yeah. Because at the start of a video in the first like, 15 seconds, people are very, very easy to lose. It's at that point that they decide whether they're going to, you know, fullscreen, you and kind of invest in this video, or whether they're going to, you know, click on one of the 30 that are kind of grabbing their attention from the side.
Ali Abdaal 30:58
How should I start? If I if you're like, if you were like, kind of my YouTube mentor or whatever, like, how would you advise me to start looking at retention, graphs and analytics bit more, what's the what's like a good a good starting point.
Arun Maini 31:11
I would look for troughs, to look at kind of points where you've got viewers that are stable, and then when they go down, and try to identify why they've gone down at that point. So for example, on the other things I found was like, I would do a round off at the end of the video. And at the point where you start rounding off a video, anyone who feels like they've got it, they're like, Okay, I'm done. This is the end of the video. And so instead, what I started doing is the second I finished the key content, I'm talking about the next video. So it's literally like, and that's what happened to Samsung, okay, for the video on this, that's there for the video on this, that's there. And I found immediately that like, the amount of clicks I was getting on my end cards to lead to the next video will like be tripled. And so my outro now has my face in it. It didn't used to have my face in it. It just used to be this kind of blaring music. Yeah. But now it feels like a continuation of the main content itself. Yeah. And I'm kind of being like, look over there, look over there. And they can see me pointing to videos. I think actually, I think you said this one's not that longer, actually, that the people who watch till the end of the most valuable audience members because they're more likely to follow through, right?
Ali Abdaal 32:22
Yeah, yeah. So the the endcard thing is something that we started doing as well about about a year ago. And, and it worked really nicely. But kind of beyond that. I didn't really, I don't really look at the numbers, because it's scary. It's yeah, it's scary. It also feels like and I don't know if this is a relic of my kind of olden days of like, just I think I think I have to drink the consistency Kool Aid way too much where it's like, once you made a video, then forget about the video onto the next one. And the kind of 1% improvements over time, I think I've been doing from my own gut of like, oh, it would be cool if the next video had this thing. And especially when I was editing my own videos, that was a lot easier to do now that there's like a layer between me and the video being edited. It's actually harder, especially because our editor question is in Romania, it's a lot harder to affect change. Even with the whole remote thing, even with like frame IO, and all this, all this other stuff that I'm now even thinking to the point of like, let's get Christian to switch to Final Cut Pro. So you can send me the project file, and I can I can do the final cut myself. So that I can then have more finely tuned control over what's going on in the video.
Arun Maini 33:30
I can understand that. Like I've not still fully handed off stuff that I probably should have handed off. Because it's your baby, right? It's your face. It's your voice. It's your it's your name. So I understand that. But to be honest, I've actually benefited a lot from having two people. There's not a big team, but two people who are specialists in their area and who like I can hand things to and I know they'll do them better than I would.
Ali Abdaal 33:52
Okay. What does your team look like righ now?
Arun Maini 33:54
So it's editor, camera guy. Okay. It's very, very basic. But it's my camera guy, my editor, they're very, very good at their jobs to the point where I'm like, if I've got any piece of graphics I want doing, I will consult them because I know that they'll know better than me.
Ali Abdaal 34:09
Ah, how long have you had those guys for?
Arun Maini 34:12
Editor for about three years, camera guy for about a year.
Ali Abdaal 34:15
Do you do any of the editing yourself?
Arun Maini 34:18
I do it as a last resort. If there's like something really urgent, which there does tend to be with tech, like you know, if Apple does an event you want to react to it, you're editing that video, because you can't ask your employees to stay up all night, although they do that actually, voluntarily via to ask them via so I'll do it if I have to.
Ali Abdaal 34:35
And like one thing that really strikes me about your videos is that basically every second there is something going on. And I can't help but continuing to watch it. And then the metal part of me is thinking, Ah, I love like all of these different things that are going on to make me encourage and encourage me to keep watching this. And the content itself is very valuable. And so I think one thing that we dwell on this on on my channel is that the content is broadly valuable. But we do basically nothing when it comes to the visual side of things. And it may as well be a podcast. Yes. And I think like that anytime I see one of your videos, I feel like ridiculous inspired, like, oh my god, like the amount of post production has gone into this. It's insane.
Arun Maini 35:14
It's kind of the the way I describe it is a an aggregation of micro refinements. So it's like, all that stuff hasn't happened overnight. If you kind of go back through the channel and watch one video every year, you do see a few new things each time. So like, the day that I decided, Okay, I'm going to spend more time on music and try to create moods with what I'm saying. The day I decided to put my face in a circle. So I'm visible at all times. And we've tried these experiments, looked at those graphs seen that they worked and then realised, okay, these are mainstays
Ali Abdaal 35:45
data, is it like you have a gut feeling that when I put my face on the thing while showing overlay, it'll work? And then you act? And then you look at the data?
Arun Maini 35:52
Or Yeah, exactly that so you have a gut feeling to try it. It works or it doesn't work, and then you action it?
Ali Abdaal 35:57
And how can you? How can you tell like you adding a face versus not adding a face, it's not like you're releasing the same video face, no face. So you have a control.
Arun Maini 36:05
It's tough, but like, I think when you spend that much time with the data, you have a gauge on how well a certain video will keep people. Okay. So for example, I know that if I make a camera comparison, they don't have good retention, like an average camera comparison might have 45 50% retention, okay, right. And so if you do a camera comparison, and it gets 55%, you're like, that is an outlier. Or if I do an unboxing, or a top 10, if I do a top 10, that's gonna get really good retention. And so you'll know what to expect. And in
Ali Abdaal 36:34
your top 10s, you start out or you start from number 10, rather than number one, always. And you go something like you know, and it starts off, it starts with A and then becomes a B and then becomes positively C. And it's like, it's also it's just so clever.
Arun Maini 36:49
Scripts. And the other thing I do actually is, when I'm scripting, I'm thinking of three different people. Okay, so there's three people I know in my life have different levels of, I guess, tech enthusiasm. And so with every line, I've almost reached the stage where I'm scanning it being like, is this interesting to all these three people when they watch this when they watch this, but they watch this with the understand this? Is this funny to them, all that kind of stuff. And I think when you do that you end up with a script that is a little more broadly appealing than it would otherwise be.
Ali Abdaal 37:20
How much time do you spend on scripting? That's most of what I do. Okay, so like for a standard, let's say for a kind of Google Pixel versus iPhone 13 Pro camera comparison. 22 minute long video. So
Arun Maini 37:33
that would is it 20 to 22 minutes? Yeah, that was your toilet? Was my toilet break?
Ali Abdaal 37:38
Yeah. Watching that double speed, obviously.
Arun Maini 37:41
Oh. I think that was probably three and a half days of scripting. 300 days. Yeah. Of like, we're talking eight hour days. No, we're talking like 14 hour days.
Ali Abdaal 37:53
We're talking like 42 hours spent on scripting a single video
Arun Maini 37:57
ages and Scott ages because I do the initial kind of like what I think is going to happen. Yeah. Then I test the phones and kind of like it because remember, like what I'm saying, I am having to create my own findings. I'm not taking things and like doing, you know, passing them on. Yeah. So you have to make sure for every single thing you say it is correct. And that that is one thing that I almost wouldn't I wouldn't trust anyone else with because it's my name and my secret sauce as well. Yeah. Yeah. So I know how to test these products, but it takes time.
Ali Abdaal 38:29
Bloody hell. What about for like a stunt? Like you'd see. So you did a video? That was ways in which tech is bad? Or? I'm worried about him? Yes. Yeah. That was a bit of a departure from your emotions.
Arun Maini 38:43
He was like, Yeah, you're not gonna like, it's took about eight days of scripting? I
Ali Abdaal 38:49
think it's about 100 hours of scripting. Something like
Arun Maini 38:53
that. Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't keeping track, but it's a long time. It is the kind of time that like, the practical part of me is thinking like, is this time well spent. But sometimes I kind of like I get carried away thinking about how viewers are going to think, you know, I'm thinking about these three different categories of viewers and and then sometimes scripts get away away from you. It's like, okay, this should be a 12 minute video, and then you actually try and do it and you're like, Oh, my God, that's 2526 minutes. So sometimes things add up out of your control. And I don't tamper them because sometimes I'm like, It's okay, this is going to be a big project. This is going to do really well over time. It's gonna hit the YouTube criteria, it's fine. We'll spend more time on it.
Ali Abdaal 39:34
Tell me more about your, about your process videos. Like I'm gonna I'm going full selfish mode. I just wanna I just want to learn from you here.
Arun Maini 39:39
So before, I think most YouTube is when you reach a certain size, you start planning videos backwards. So when you think about a video or thinking about thumbnail title, would people click on it? And then from there, you're like, Okay, what's the content going to be like? Is it engaging? Is it delivering value will people finish Just that video thinking, Whoa, I like this guy. And then at that point, then you're thinking, you take a step further back, it's like, Okay, what's the storyline? What's the subplot? How you keeping people throughout that video engage, and then you work all the way back. And then that's the point where you've got your content, you know what your next step is the way the normal the trigger point is either an idea I've had embed, or some past video that did really well that people really enjoy it. And they're like, can we have a part two? Or something someone else has done? That I think that's a really interesting idea. What if I applied it to phones or, you know, gadgets or whatever,
Ali Abdaal 40:33
I really got a sense that there was a storyline because you were like, I'm gonna tell you about this product. But there's like, but there's a question here, like, who's it for? And it was like your you kept on that was like a thread going through going through the content. And all that stuff is the stuff that you do in your kind of multiple passes of going out. It's almost like writing a book. It was
Arun Maini 40:56
Yeah, is in my head, like, I never thought I'd write as much as I do. Like, when I was a kid, I thought, I'll be doing something where I'm working on an Excel spreadsheet or something. It didn't occur to me that my job is basically video essays.
Ali Abdaal 41:10
I've been listening to a book about four or five days ago. And the very first chapter talks about this idea of me plus, I want to kind of like elaborate, like, what is what is me plus mean?
Dr Grace Lordan 41:19
So if you mean, if you go back to the economics were really good, I think making at helping ourselves in the present day. So we know what makes us happy in the moment. But very often the things that we have to invest in to give our future selves, a better future we don't often do. So what I'd like people to do is to think about where would they like to be if it all worked out? So if they threw out, you know, loss aversion, if they issue a fear of failure, where would they actually end up being? And have that be there me plus, but before they commit to that being there, me plus really think about, what would that mean plus actually do because I've noticed a lot of times when I talk to people about careers, they're attached to a label, so they want to be a trader, or an investment banker, or they want to be a doctor, or they're attached to a lifestyle. So they want to be able to go on a particular vacation or buy a particular car, and kind of think big journey is really thinking about, if I were to be a doctor, if I were to be a trader, what would be the tasks that I will be doing on a day to day basis? And would I ultimately end up enjoying those tasks, so the activities that I'm going to spend the time in, and there's two reasons for that. So one, it makes you happier to actually do tasks that you like, which feels like a no brainer. But secondly, if you're engaged in tasks that you like, you tend to be more successful. And it's a second that I'm really interested in kind of getting people into jobs where they feel that they've reached the success that they want.
Ali Abdaal 42:35
Okay, interesting. And do you think when it comes to being engaged in tasks that you like, some people say it's a case of find the thing that fits within your values, your personality, and when once you find that thing, then you will find it fun? And then there's another school of thought that says, Well, you know, the whole finding something that you're passionate about is actually kind of hard to do. So think about the stuff that you're actually doing and find ways to make it more interesting for yourself. How how do you how do you feel about those two different different camps,
Dr Grace Lordan 43:03
I don't really feel that they're different. So you know, so people are claiming now that they choose companies based on the values the companies might have. And I think that's true, in the same way that we choose a company based on a salary. But when you're actually in the job, what tends to matter with respect to productivity and happiness is how you feel in those tasks in that moment. And if I'm working for a company that's saving the environment, but I've been treated really badly in a micro culture in order to save that environment, those couple of companies come to mind when I think about that, then I'm not going to be productive, I'm not going to be happy, I'm actually likely to leave that job. So it's more about going beyond thinking, what is the company's mission? What is my personality? And what is the micro culture of the team that I'm going to be working in? And will that make me happy? Will I be connected to the mission? Because my team is connected
Ali Abdaal 43:53
to the mission? That's very hard to assess in advance when you're applying for a job.
Dr Grace Lordan 43:57
It's really hard it is, it's really, really hard. And I think then if you bring it down to the tasks and asking on an interview, what will I be doing on a day to day basis? So when I come to work for you, Ellie, what would I be doing on a day to day basis as part of your team? If you can imagine me on a Monday, how will I spend my time, the fact that you as a manager, have thought about that? Firstly, will tell me that you're a good manager, because you'll know actually what you want the person to do. And you're not just hiring blindly. But the second is having that information allows me make my mind up. Because if if I like the tasks, I'm probably going to like the team.
Ali Abdaal 44:30
Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting. So that that was a big part of the message that took away from the meat cluster and the way it manifested in my life. When I read it, I was I was thinking, okay, you know, let's engage with this. Like, what's, what's kind of what does me plus look like? And initially, I was thinking, oh, you know, I'd really like to have six pack abs. And then I came across the bit where you were like, no, no, forget about that. Focus on like, what, what did the tasks look like? And I was like, okay, you know, what I want me plus to do is to be able to exercise every day and to have fun doing it. Yep. And so for the last four days, I've actually been to the gym I went to you o'clock yesterday morning, I did a workout at like 8am this morning. And I've never really done this sort of thing. But I was like excited about that. I was excited that the end goal was not six, six pack abs, I was excited that the end goal was that no way there wasn't an end goal. And it was a case of just, I want to be able to enjoy this is that the sort of thing that you get a lot when you're doing this sort of research that process rather than outcome kind of thing. So I
Dr Grace Lordan 45:23
kind of write a lot for kind of people who might have made it Yes, or people who have plateaued. So if you take the exercising analogy from somebody who's contemplating doing the kind of a 5k run, rather than somebody who is contemplating doing the London Marathon, and it's really well placed for that. And I think for the person who hasn't done exercise for a while, or the person who has really invested in their career for a while, the worst thing they can do is do too much. So if you hadn't invested for a while, the worst thing you could do is go to the gym for three hours, you might get through it today. But the chances of repeating that are really, really small. And I think kind of the one of the big powerful messages underlying thing big is whether you're focused on your health, or whether you're focused on your career, it's those small actions that you take today will determine yourself in two years time, three years time and four years time. And actually, by throwing out the idea that you're going to reinvent yourself in 30 days is really, really powerful. Because you're much more likely to stick to it, you know, you can accomplish an extraordinary amount in 12 months, very little in, you know, 12 minutes, or, you know, a very short period of time,
Ali Abdaal 46:22
you know, I've been making videos semi themed around productivity for the last four years. And a big chunk of the advice boils down to consistency, and just showing up and taking small actions repeatedly. And in a way, not really worrying so much about the ultimate goal. And these days, I teach I teach courses helping people become like YouTubers and stuff. And the way you become a successful YouTuber is you just make one or two videos every week for the next like five years. But no one sticks to it for that long, because they have like the Oh, I must hit a certain subscriber count, I must have a certain like view count. And my view on this is that having, like, in a way those outcome metrics, the ones that are outside of our control, I kind of unhelpful, especially at the start of a journey. Do you have any thoughts on on that point?
Dr Grace Lordan 47:05
Well, when you were talking, you actually, I watched a video of yours on compounding. So when people are choosing to invest, we accept compounding very, very easily, right. So we accept the idea actually, that, you know, if we leave money in for a very long period of time, it's going to compound so we're probably going to be okay in our pensions. And it's exactly the same here when it comes to your career, like those very small things that you're going to do today. And I asked for a commitment of 90 minutes a week, which for most people, regardless of how pressurised you feel is very, very possible. That should compound once you do once you've chosen tasks that align with your meet plus, relatively quickly.
Ali Abdaal 47:39
Okay, 90 minutes a week, that's like 30 minutes a day ish. Yes, very doable. Um, one, one bit that I was gonna ask you about that I thought maybe I disagreed with was you talk like the title of the book is think big. Yeah. And the vibe I got from the chapter around goals is that you're keen on people setting, or perhaps not, but like, one camp of people in the sphere is encouraging people to set these big, hairy, audacious goals, and then figuring out the small steps taken you can take to get there. But then there's another camp. And this is sort of where it where I think I am whereby I think, in a way, I feel maybe setting goals is a bit overrated. Because if you're setting a goal, then you're essentially to me that feels like a contract to be unhappy until you hit the goal. And then you hit the goal. And then you have this like fleeting sense of like, Oh, I hit a million subscribers. Cool. Yeah, you know, my day to day hasn't really changed, etc, etc. So the way I kind of think about goals is I try I try and throw goals out the window, and instead just focus on those, like, what do I actually want to do? But I don't know if I'm just like, be guessing myself, then like,
Dr Grace Lordan 48:48
what you were doing? Okay. So that seems to be working for you. I mean, I think so. So for people who read the book, the goal is really there to serve two purposes. So one, so that you start investing in your career. So it helps to find the tasks this week, and two, so that you actually bring your future self forward. So you're not always investing in activities that just serve you in the present day. But in the book, I do talk about the idea that every Sunday, so every kind of what I pick, Sunday is the start of my week, that you reflect on how the week previous went, and you look to see whether or not there are new opportunities that you should be pivoting your goal for. So I see the Think big part of the book as really giving people a directions, they can set off on a journey, and they start walking. And more interesting things might actually come along. But they make a conscious decision to follow those interesting things. So then they go off on a slightly different journey. So if you take your own career, for example, it was probably a great idea that you studied medicine in Cambridge, right? And now you have an entirely different career, but you are using some of the skills that you actually learned in the university. So in that particular case, you would have sat back and said actually, do I really want to pivot and do a large pivot The answer would have been Yes. But had you never got into medicine medical school, maybe you would never have started walking in this direction and come to the destination. So it's really about movement.
Ali Abdaal 50:09
Oh, okay, that's very interesting. Um, I was having these thoughts I was it was a few weeks ago, and I was on a date. And we went there, we were kind of driving around afterwards, just like chatting. And I was kind of thinking that like driving around without a destination. It's just like if it felt a bit wrong. And so I just put the destination of that, like the McDonald's drive thru in the sat nav. And it wasn't really about the destination, it was about, okay, I've got a destination now. Now I know what what the journey is. And when we got to the middle of trophies, like what is the McDowell's right through like the the destination is actually not that important. But the point is, I was thinking, Hmm, maybe having the destination, lets you kind of set the direction for your journey. And then you can always change your mind as you as you go further down the line.
Dr Grace Lordan 50:51
And as humans, we love certainty. So even if we've created for ourselves, this is the goal that we're moving towards them, we change your mind, for the period of time that we're moving, there is certainty. One of the biggest things that hampers people's growth and you know, stops them kind of getting to the place of where they probably deserve to be is that they feel that the journey is actually uncertain. So by kind of having that destination allows you to kind of try to move towards it. Okay,
Ali Abdaal 51:15
yeah, this reminds me of advice I got when I was in med school where like, once you once you've done your once you start your clinical years, the question everyone asks is, oh, what specialty Do you want to do? And the honest answer for the vast majority people is, I don't freaking out, I have no idea. Like, you know, there are those odd like weirdos that I've decided on the agent at the age of three, they want to be a neurosurgeon. Yeah. But for most of us is like, honestly, I don't know, I just want to kind of get a feel of different specialties. And kind of, and the advice that one of one of the consultants already respected gave me was that, like, honestly, just pick something and start moving towards it. Because then you will start doing things that will build up your CV and you'll start actually finding opportunities your way. And then if you want to change your mind, it's much easier to change direction when you're moving forward, rather than when you're when you're stationary. And you
Dr Grace Lordan 51:57
learn about yourself as well. What do I like? And what do I, what do I dislike, which you won't do if you're just if you're kind of standing still? So kind of you know, did I write about what should you do if you have no idea what you want to do with the future where a lot of young people are actually people who you know, and who are later in life? And again, it's really about thinking, what do I kind of like doing now? So let's do some more of that and move towards a goal. And then on the way being really reflective? am I enjoying this task? Or am I just doing it because I like the idea of becoming a surgeon or becoming a lawyer becoming another job title. And I really want people to move away from the second, you know, I kind of think with the future of work. We have this disruption, where people who are able to kind of pivot know what their skills are job craft, which, which you've mentioned already, it will really stand to them.
Ali Abdaal 52:44
Hmm. Yeah, so it's like you're moving away from being and more towards doing, yes, being a doctor but versus like, what does the day to day of practising medicine actually look like? And does this sound like the sort of thing that is my idea of fun right now? And I guess, I guess, like, it's, it's kind of you know, that there's that thing in the research about, it's hard for us to predict what will make us happy in the future. But it's a reasonable first approximation, that the sort of stuff I enjoy doing now, like talking to people like you, or like making videos is likely to also probably make me happy in the future. And if it doesn't, then well, I can just change course, yeah,
Dr Grace Lordan 53:15
this is like a grid search. So what you know, what the government should have done in COVID. And some governments incredibly well, was what we call this grid search strategy where they get new data, they update their decision making based on the data, and they're willing to go backwards, or they're willing to go left, and they're willing to go right. And always having that openness to a change of direction. And I think if we kind of bring that into careers that you know, really, we don't know, our preferences very well. We've watched some TV when we're young. So depending on what you watch, that might actually ultimately determine your career. Maybe you move towards that, if you have no idea, but always paying attention to am I enjoying the tasks? Is it Do I feel purpose, if I was doing this in five years time, would I be really, really happy.
Ali Abdaal 53:54
And that brings us to the end of season one of the deep dive podcast. I really hope you've enjoyed the season. Thank you so much. If you've tuned in for to some or all of the episodes and thank you even more, if you've left a review on Apple podcasts, you can still do that. It'll be linked in the video description or in the show notes. If you'd like to leave us a review, it really does help more people discover the podcast. Thank you as well. If you feel that the midseason feedback survey, we've used that to improve the quality of the podcast, hopefully, moving forward. I am taking a lot of the advice that you guys gave for how to become a better interviewer because this is something that's fairly new to me, and I'm definitely on this quest to improve as an interviewer over time. Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for watching season one. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and all that and hopefully I'll see you in season two in the new year. Thank you. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai