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Two friends. Two cities. Two perspectives on what it means to thrive.
Guys Like Us is a podcast about the pursuit of a good life—messy, meaningful, and real. Hosted by Marc in New York and Paul in Vienna, it’s where two longtime friends reflect on life, work, relationships, and the moments that shape us.
Each week, we bring a story with a point. Sometimes it’s funny. Sometimes it’s a little raw. But it always comes from a place of curiosity, honesty, and earned perspective.
We believe a good life isn’t just about pleasure—it’s about presence. It’s about friendship that’s been built and maintained across continents. It’s about failures that taught us more than wins. It’s about food and wine, sure—but also doubt, joy, regret, growth, and showing up anyway.
This is a podcast for people trying to live fully—whatever that means to them. One story at a time.
Paul Fattinger (00:13)
Welcome back to Guys Like Us, the podcast that would change your life or bore you to death. Either way, Marc and I are gonna have lots of fun with that. So this is Marc Winter calling in from New York and myself, Paul Fatinger. So we are back after a short summer break, full of energy to continue a little podcast with an episode today about solo traveling. And you will soon find out why. Maybe because I just came back from...
Marc Winter (00:20)
Ha
Hello?
Ooooo
Paul Fattinger (00:42)
a solo trip but before we start let's do some housekeeping I'd say. Mark, how's it going my friend?
Marc Winter (00:50)
I'm good buddy, how are you? I'm uh... blissed out, you know? And I gotta tell you, I had a brilliant weekend. had a good friend visiting from Switzerland. I was in my parents' garden. There were steaks, great wine. My wife was looking extraordinarily beautiful. My kids were behaving. My grandparents were taking care... I know.
Paul Fattinger (01:05)
Isn't
Jesus, are you sure you were
not dead for a few hours and actually in heaven?
Marc Winter (01:15)
Exactly. thought I thought I
thought I couldn't be happier until you know Someone sent me some feedback on our last few episodes. So, you know
Paul Fattinger (01:26)
⁓ okay, that's a good one actually. Feedback, yeah we wanted to talk about that.
Marc Winter (01:28)
That's true.
That's true. You know, I had ⁓ two friends, probably the only two listeners of ours just yet, who said, you know, hey, I'm just going to read out like hysterical. ⁓ Let's see. This one was relatable and funny, comfortable conversation between friends and well done. And they might follow us for a few more episodes until we fuck up. That's not terrible feedback.
Paul Fattinger (01:40)
So...
That's not terrible feedback.
But maybe
just for context, right? I mean, we did our first episode, which we did a second time because we thought the first one was not great. And then we thought, what are we going to do with this? And we were kind of like the way we are, a little bit maybe also coming from our professions, A bit perfectionist, so we wanted everything perfect before we launched it. And I think I'm still proud of us that we were bold to say, fuck it, we're going to do an MVP. I just drew up some shit.
the GPT image put that put that on there so guys yeah we are not gonna you know keep it like that but maybe we will actually if we can't be bothered and we just said we'll just make an MVP send it to a couple of friends see how it goes and just kind of learn as we go and I gotta be honest it's been more fun than I thought but also more difficult than I thought that's kind of what is my personal feedback
Marc Winter (02:39)
We'll figure it out. Yeah.
Yeah, part for the course. I actually learned about what really moves us and what doesn't. And for example, in our first MVP, we thought it would be kind of fun to say, hey, why don't you reflect on the news, et cetera, and talk about it. And in the end, I realized that none of us really gave a shit enough to read it.
Paul Fattinger (03:15)
No, to read the news.
I haven't read the news in years, I'm not gonna start for this.
Marc Winter (03:18)
Or decide to comment on
it.
Paul Fattinger (03:23)
Exactly. No, but I mean in
terms of feedback, so I mean I send you some of them but one I also got to read is this I love it so far man both voices amazing to listen to very interesting and honest I love that I had also that our wine conversations are fun talking of which what are you drinking?
Marc Winter (03:43)
my god. ⁓ So today is a I'm sponsored by the most embarrassing label yet. mean, I'm even embarrassed to say that I'm even drinking this. But it's it's a rosé. It's called The Beach ⁓ by Whispering Angel. So everyone knows that. But this the beach, which has got to be there.
Paul Fattinger (03:58)
Gee, we already started.
Mmm. ⁓
it was spring onions, Yeah.
Marc Winter (04:12)
their down market, their entry market, Rosé. It was lying around somewhere. ⁓ I picked it up because it was open in the office.
Paul Fattinger (04:23)
What did you tell, you
know, what are you telling people when you walk through the office with an open bottle of wine?
Marc Winter (04:28)
⁓
Excellent question. I say I have a virtual toast for someone I say nothing else. And it is a virtual toast.
Paul Fattinger (04:36)
I think that's good
one. know, another piece before I'm going to share my wine, another piece of feedback I got, which I thought was interesting, is that there was too much inside a banter in the beginning, right? So we need to kind of flow more. Yeah, Yeah, but maybe, you know, if we do some inside jokes that we find very fun, maybe, you know, maybe people need to get us to know us better to actually find that fun.
Marc Winter (04:52)
Fuck that. What? No, really?
Whistler
number five, if you want us to get to the point right away, we'll figure it out.
Paul Fattinger (05:06)
Okay, listen to something else. ⁓ In order to get to know us,
but I'll tell you a little story. I'm also, and this is not, ⁓ how do you say, pre, we didn't talk about what we were drinking, we never do actually. I'm also drinking a rosé and I'm sponsored by, let me see, Ktima Zelepos, Blanc de Gris.
Marc Winter (05:18)
No, Yeah.
Okay.
Paul Fattinger (05:34)
Yeah, from Greece actually, from Greece, sorry.
Marc Winter (05:35)
Okay. Okay.
Paul Fattinger (05:37)
Yeah, from Greece. And it's a beautiful rosé. And I went to my favorite wine shop here, where I am at the moment, in the south of Austria, Klagenfurt.
after a night of drinking with my brother. So actually, you know, when you go grocery shopping hungry, you buy a lot of things. When you go grocery shopping when you're not hungry, you usually don't buy. So you would assume that if I went wine shopping, hungover, I would only come back with two bottles of wine. I came back with 24.
Marc Winter (05:52)
Hmm.
Paul Fattinger (06:12)
It says something about the extent of my problem or passion. So what's the difference? There is light and shadow to everything. And this is one of the things they made me try and I really like it actually. It's a bit too lovely for me but I think the ladies would like it.
Marc Winter (06:18)
Yes, or passion, exactly. What's the difference?
That's true. That's true.
Mm. Mm.
That's the bougiest fucking note I've heard. It's a bit too lovely for me. Welcome to Tasting Notes by Paul Thautinger. you're actually doing the translation. ⁓ see. Lieblich, right? German.
Paul Fattinger (06:42)
Actually in German you say in German this is No, actually
there was another piece of feedback that my English actually was good which I found Quite quite nice So this one though you say in German Lieblich if it's quite fruity and light in your nose So I thought Lieblich lovely, you know close enough close enough
Marc Winter (06:57)
You know, that you know. Yeah, that you know.
Yeah. Got it. Got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah,
yeah. Perfect.
Paul Fattinger (07:10)
Okay,
so that's for the feedback in what we're drinking. So, man, I can tell you.
I had a pretty cool week, you know, I came back from a shorter than expected, I don't know if I told you this actually, I was planning to go on a hike for 6 days, I only made it for 4 and then had to abort with the blister the size of my palm basically on my left heel, which was gross as fuck and my knee is hurting, anyways, but it was lovely and the topic of today is solo traveling.
Marc Winter (07:25)
Mm.
Ugh. Ugh.
Mmm. Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (07:42)
And to
start with this, I'm going to tell you another little story. Four stories this time.
Marc Winter (07:45)
Mm.
Mm.
Paul Fattinger (07:47)
On my first night I went down this beautiful bench overlooking some beautiful mountains, I opened my Insights Timer app that I use for my meditations and it always opens up and it has those quotes. And exactly on that day a quote came up by Aldous Huxley saying the following, I screen-showed it.
Marc Winter (08:08)
Mmm.
I believe that. I believe some of that.
Paul Fattinger (08:12)
is quite
strong right but i thought it was so funnily timed that on day one of my solo trip we're doing this and i'm getting i'm doing the traveling segments when i did the traveling with kids segment now i'm doing the traveling alone segment we actually when we did the traveling we're going to do a similar thing today okay
Marc Winter (08:20)
I'm gonna turn it.
Hmm.
Paul Fattinger (08:31)
But
I think what's different is because we hadn't discussed this when we talked about traveling with kids. We never actually talked about the why. Why would you do that? You could actually... We just assumed you have kids, you're gonna have to travel with them. We never talked about the why. Exactly. So we're not gonna repeat the why on the kids stuff, but I think on the solo traveling, the why is important.
Marc Winter (08:41)
hahahaha
I just want to fuel my alcoholism, you know, exactly. It's a good...
Paul Fattinger (08:58)
And why I'm saying this, and this is my question back to you, is because I think there are a lot of people, especially men, who have a hard time imagining going on vacations alone. I'm not talking business trips, guys. I'm talking a proper vacation on your own. So very long story short, have you, and actually we never talked about this, have you ever been on a solo trip, a proper, mark winter alone, traveling, exploring, whatever?
Marc Winter (09:27)
I have. ⁓ And I would put it in three chapters, so three archetypes. So the first I think about is when I was a student in Freiburg in Germany, I was a...
Paul Fattinger (09:30)
Tell me.
Marc Winter (09:44)
You know, was a thing I was in Europe. Every weekend I would take the train to someplace I didn't know where it was, either to deep into France, to Switzerland, to random cities in Germany, just to explore it. I had an insatiable curiosity. ⁓ And I loved it. I was in the early 2000s. Then that manifested to even greater heights a little bit later when I was living in Asia.
Paul Fattinger (09:54)
Hmm.
Hmm
Marc Winter (10:14)
close friends were harder to come by and I was like, okay, who's gonna come to this random part of Thailand with me? I said, it's just gonna be me. And I did that quite a bit. And now I have to say there are some luxurious days that I might tack on, which isn't what you're asking, it's not a business trip, but like, know, a days of adjustment, a days of solitude that I just need, you know? ⁓ Which is what I can squeeze in right now.
And because I find such deep great value in them, though they look a lot different. And I want to talk a little bit about that. But so I've done it. I enjoyed it. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (10:52)
We're gonna get to that, I'm sure.
Okay, so, man, you actually know what you're talking about today. That's great. Must be a new feeling for a change. It must be a novel feeling here. But if you think of your group of friends, in general,
Marc Winter (10:59)
Exactly. For once you're not bullshitting. Exactly.
Yeah, totally.
Paul Fattinger (11:17)
What's the kind of, you know, what's your perception of that topic? Is that something very common?
Marc Winter (11:23)
It's, look,
it's not common at all. I think, you know, you would have the most classic archetype. Someone in their 20s might choose to backpack in Europe by themselves or backpack in Patagonia or South America, that kind of thing. And they usually do it once in their life and they check it off and they never would return to it. Why if kids, you know, that makes it, or pick work gets too intense. It's not something you prioritize, you know? ⁓ That love. Yeah, you would never.
Paul Fattinger (11:32)
Mm, mm. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Our age.
Yeah.
Marc Winter (11:53)
I think you're an extreme anomaly that hopefully our listeners can learn from a little bit. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (12:02)
And you think if you think of men and women, I know I'm writing on this topic. I also did last time, but I find it very interesting in this case because I know that I have like in my very small, you know, group of reference, not statistically relevant reference points. I have friends who I tell you who I tell this to and it's like, man, I really think it's great you doing this. I could never do that.
But I know actually quite a few women that have also inspired me to do it because I kind of thought, okay, if they do it, why shouldn't I? So I know way more women than men doing that. That's my sample.
Marc Winter (12:30)
Mmm.
I agree.
Same. Funny enough, actually. ⁓ But I mean, look, I spent a lot of time in, you know, some part of my ⁓ social circles, a little bit in the woo-woo set is what I'll call, you know, and which is female dominated and that's not to not to diminish it. You know, it's, you know.
Paul Fattinger (12:53)
Mm-hmm.
Marc Winter (13:00)
these circles of people who wanna go within, wanna take journeys of understanding, getting to deeply know themselves, explore their humanity a little bit deeper. ⁓ So I agree with you, it's definitely more female dominated. I think most men, if they have free moments, they do what we talked about in our last episode, get together with their buddies. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (13:22)
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And
in fact, because I was I was wondering if that's just a personal observation. I did put it into these beautiful new AI machines and ran some research and there are different studies on that. the percentage of women of solo travelers ranges somewhere between 65 and 85 percent. So like.
Marc Winter (13:34)
Okay.
Wow. Wow.
Paul Fattinger (13:48)
massively yeah so it's like
yeah it's like a one third two thirds kind of thing for every man two women at a minimum actually it's kind of the lower end it's almost more one two three
Which actually is a good idea. know what you will say. Okay, now I'll give you the downside of this. I'll keep you on. I'll bring your mind back into check. The biggest age group is army, nannies and gensets. So that's a good thing. But actually there's a very large group of older women traveling alone. And so the average solo traveler age is 47. So, you know, if you then find your three women,
Marc Winter (14:12)
Keep us on track. Keep us on track.
Paul Fattinger (14:34)
I'm not sure they're all gonna be in your target zone.
Marc Winter (14:40)
No, no, mean, look, I mean, I plenty of great anecdotes of sitting alongside, it's gonna sound weird for you, at a bar and a woman in their 70s or even 80s would be traveling solo. So I'm not surprised by it. And as a matter of fact, I'm inspired by it.
Paul Fattinger (15:04)
all right guys so
we've established, okay, we've done it. Not many people do it, especially in our age, especially men. So why are you, so for you, what's your biggest kind of soul travel win benefit? Why would you do it? If, you know, your wife and kids would allow you to go away for a bit and we're going to play the game a little bit.
to structure a trip, but why would you do it? Why would you crave doing it?
Marc Winter (15:31)
Yeah,
think, ⁓ there's the cherished moments of reflection, but there's also, there's a moment just experiencing the world alone by yourself, taking things in really fully. That's beautiful. And if you allow yourself the ability to do it, you know, and I think where I've noticed, ⁓
the way I've traveled solo has changed. When I was first sitting on trains in Europe, it was amazing. I had five books with me, it was analog, I read all of the Token series, and I wouldn't mind the six hour trips, it was like, fantastic, I'm gonna read half this book by then. And the older I got, and also the more tech interfered with your life, it's amazing how time can suck up the reflection.
Paul Fattinger (16:13)
Mm-hmm.
Marc Winter (16:26)
as I'm sitting on the trains now watching movies or whatever, just onto the next thing. And that's the travel time. But it's a very real thing that I kind of want to go more analog now. But I think the power of having a meal by yourself, the power of exploring a city on foot or nature, being in nature by yourself and taking that in is profound if you allow it to.
to open yourself up to being in your own skin and without kind of inputs that you have to react to from other people.
Paul Fattinger (17:05)
So
it's basically what you're saying is it gives you a space and room to for introspection, self-reflection, to think, feel, right? I mean, if you manage to keep away, yeah. And I fully agree. That's also why I do it. And I found it interesting when I looked up those statistics. ⁓
Marc Winter (17:18)
Excellent synthesis. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
Paul Fattinger (17:29)
There was that part as well, but there also actually the biggest part of the biggest reason was actually independence, know, and freedom and not having to look out for other people, which is also which is not my kind of motivation.
But I can see how it changed for me. you know, I personally, I don't think I have done a trip on my own, other than the business, many business trips up until six years ago.
Marc Winter (18:01)
Hmm
Paul Fattinger (18:01)
first time, I think
it was 2018 or 2019. And that was a trip when my kids were then very young, don't know, five, three and one basically. And I just really wanted and I was still married and I just really wanted to get out and be somewhere on my own. And I went on a mountain bike trip where I spent I think three nights in a beautiful part of Austria. And I went from one place to the other and stayed in different places and just basically broke my finger on the first day.
Marc Winter (18:05)
Hmm.
Paul Fattinger (18:31)
lost my wallet on the first day, a typical Paul Fatinger kind of trip. But my thing was I wanted out and I wanted to be alone and I wanted some space. And it was really great. But I wanted kind of a way and I was happy to be alone. And then when I...
Marc Winter (18:41)
Mmm. Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (18:52)
you know now that I am alone and I don't have a partner and and so on it's it's it hits a bit different because traveling alone actually brings
almost puts in front of the face your relationship status if you want. when I was hiking on the second day, now on my trip, I was really starting to miss my kids and I was like, ⁓ know, and then I thought to myself, this is really interesting, right? Because if you are in a different circumstance, then you're really happy to be alone. You would be happy to be alone. It's just you miss them now because you know you can't have them at the very moment.
Marc Winter (19:07)
Yeah, I was gonna ask about that.
Paul Fattinger (19:32)
you that you are in the situation and it's kind of a grass is always greener kind of thing right because when you sit with your kids on vacation you know the whole summer you're like man I really want to be alone and want to be on that mountain bike trip and when you have a lot of time on your own but you don't really have so much of a you know of a choice to spend the time with your kids like I did in the past you kind of want the other thing so I think I found that interesting that it's always kind of you always kind of want the other thing and although it's exactly
the same things you're doing.
Marc Winter (20:04)
Yeah,
that is really interesting. know, when you're... There's the freedom piece, ⁓ the relationship thing you're talking about is actually really kind of interesting. you know, as a single guy out alone in the wilderness without, ⁓ you know, a ⁓ partner to kind of return to, I feel like this sense of...
like Paulness and quotations, you know, like out there, you know, is more full and more present in itself. Is that fair to say?
Paul Fattinger (20:38)
I don't know because I don't think I have the... ⁓
I think if you are in that kind of phase, you know, like I am at the moment, there is automatically more introspection and looking at the situation that you're in. You know, it's kind of like that. That's what I, what I think.
Marc Winter (20:50)
Hmm.
Got it.
Paul Fattinger (21:00)
But I also don't have the great... It's not like I did five solo trips when I was in... during a time where I was in relationships. So it's hard for me to compare really. To me it's a really new thing that I really started.
Marc Winter (21:01)
Hmm.
Totally.
Paul Fattinger (21:17)
⁓ Only I think two years ago when I said okay, let's I want to do something and it actually was You know a holiday school holiday period in Austria and my kids were going away with my ex-wife And I just didn't want to sit alone at home basically, you know, it was one of those I was like, okay screw it I went to Portugal to the Algarve rented a motorcycle and rode a motorcycle for four days, which was absolutely amazing and I loved it and
Marc Winter (21:44)
Yeah, but it's fucking amazing. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (21:47)
great food and great views and I loved it. And that was kind of the start of this and ever since then I've done it a few times, know, like last year in Greece for a week, which really was one of the best and not a hike. I'm trying to kind of cultivate it.
Marc Winter (22:01)
Okay, so
here's something I would like to declare to you. I suck at spending time in nature as a solo traveler. I can't do it. Like, if I'm solo traveling, there's something, I love nature, I love being out there, but if I had to pick, I don't know, an indie kind of game show, whatever it is, if I'm solo, like I would 10 times rather be solo traveling in Tokyo than I would in, yeah, yeah, I.
Paul Fattinger (22:12)
What?
Here we go. This is unreal. We are sorry to interrupt you, but this is my
first prompt is about where and the prompt is solo in a city hostel or a remote cabin.
Marc Winter (22:36)
No, well, yeah, and I have to be really clear and honest with you and our audience. The reality is that I like spending time with myself, but I love spending time. I'm a social animal. I love spending time with other people. And meeting new people, doesn't matter if they're strangers or whatever, I just love it. And I think I'm addicted to stimulus.
even foreign of any kind. you know, if you find me in Tokyo or Pick Your Soul or whatever, Deli, fucking LA, yeah, whatever. Yeah, could be LA, doesn't matter. Like, I'm more than happy to be going around visiting cool bars, cool restaurants, cool live shows. I just wanna have it all into my brain. And it's like a sensory overload that I'm pursuing. And ⁓ it's...
Paul Fattinger (23:12)
something new, exciting.
Marc Winter (23:33)
If in nature, I'm also deeply appreciated, but it's work for me. You know what I mean? To do it solo.
Paul Fattinger (23:41)
Man,
I think we're have to almost celebrate. This is the first time I think we are really very different in our views. Because to me it is 180 % the opposite.
Marc Winter (23:53)
I'm not surprised.
Paul Fattinger (23:56)
And you took away the next seven prompts that were done. by the way, no. But let's go back. When you are in nature though, what of it is work? What feels like work?
Marc Winter (24:11)
I feel like I have... ⁓
I have to...
find a stimulus for myself, if that makes sense.
Paul Fattinger (24:23)
But is it that you
don't have a distraction in a sense? Or is it that you're bored?
Marc Winter (24:27)
No, it's totally it. No, it's totally
it. No, I'm not bored. It's just it's a little bit of the the overwhelming stimulus of being in the city of feeling. ⁓ Not knowing what's around the corner or what cool little place that you can discover, you know, I feel like nature reveals itself to you so beautifully, so out in the open at all its wonder, you know, it's there. And it's a little bit like, you know, like
The New York Times does these exercises right now, which are kind of interesting. Like, can you look at a painting for 10 minutes? Have you seen these? It's amazing. They'll like put out a masterpiece, you know? Pick one, it's like, can you just be with this painting for 10 minutes? And they even have a timer. And I play this game a lot, so I'll look at it. And I usually make it to eight minutes, maybe six minutes. I already think it's 10. And you know.
Paul Fattinger (25:03)
No. ⁓
Marc Winter (25:26)
nature's the highest quality paint version of a painting, you know, when you're up in these, in these. ⁓ Right. And well, I love it. And it's wonder. I mean, there's this there's no no lacking in appreciation of it. Like, kind of spent with it. I'm like, Okay, now what's next? You know, what's next? What's next? And, ⁓ you know, it's something I have to work on, you know, say this very openly, just to be
Paul Fattinger (25:31)
Absolutely agree.
Marc Winter (25:54)
And nature forces you just to be. And I love the constant fun of not being fully in one moment, which is ⁓ kind of hilarious because I so admire Buddhist philosophy and the sense of removing yourself from causality into
This is get too meta here. But I think, but it is relevant, right, to like, to what nature is supposed to do to you.
Paul Fattinger (26:26)
No, no, no, no, I know what you mean. It is totally right. And I find this is.
And. And the reason I would come back to the reason I like nature is not because I am so great in letting go and being present. It is actually that I am scared of the social situations.
I am scared of feeling alone and I think you feel more alone when you sit alone in a restaurant full of people than when you walk alone on a mountain.
Marc Winter (26:57)
That's interesting. Huh. Huh.
Paul Fattinger (27:01)
And
to me there is a kind of a social anxiety that I have almost. And I guess that's why I love walking through a town with you, because you don't have that at all. And in the wake of that I also get self-confidence. But to me, and the first night in the cabin was exactly that, I sat alone on a big table.
Marc Winter (27:15)
Hmm.
Paul Fattinger (27:23)
And I had actually almost manifested and visualized that I'm gonna be open and friendly and laughing and inviting because you know I can look pretty grumpy and no one wants to talk to me and I get that, right? Didn't happen though and it kind of almost surfaces the things, okay why is no one talking to me? It kind of surfaces self-doubt and things like that when you're there. ⁓
Marc Winter (27:34)
Yeah, sure.
Paul Fattinger (27:51)
and I find it, yeah, I find that difficult. That's why I think I'd rather go somewhere where there is no one, because I never get to that self-doubt. Peace.
Marc Winter (27:59)
Dude, I feel like my friends are 50-50 between the split of that, you know? And I'm not surprised. ⁓ But, and there's a, the social anxiety piece ⁓ is a really funny one. I don't know why I don't have that gene, but. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (28:05)
Yeah.
Marc Winter (28:20)
But I totally understand it. get it, right? Like sitting alone at a bar or at a restaurant having a meal by yourself at a restaurant is super hard for people. I love it. I think there's something just cool, you know, just like chatting up with the waiter, you but like, you know, you me, I always like to ask what's good with the menu. Are you sure it's awesome? What wine would you pair with this motherfucker? Yeah, is it great enough? Where's the fish from? Where's the meat from? You know, like I just talking, I'll read an article at the Times.
Paul Fattinger (28:25)
Yes. Yes.
Is it awesome enough?
Yeah, you know, but...
The funny thing
was on my day two and three, actually that kind of environment was great because I was on a hike that went from, you know, there was a predetermined route, but it went from A to B over, you know, over a stretch of mountains that formed the border between Austria and Italy. And so you sleep in cabins, right, or in huts or whatever you call them in English, I don't know. And so you kind of are on the same pace with the others because you have those stages. And I kind of skipped a few stages or did two in one, but on
three nights or two nights I was with the same people because we were on the same stages and there were very big tables in that one hut so you had to I couldn't sit there alone so I had to sit with eight other people and then of course you start talking and
And was super fun actually. And then you re-meet these people on the trail when you pass them and you ask how they're doing and you kind of get to know them. And I really loved it, you know, as soon as you kind of over that hump of self-doubt and shyness and so on. then you see what happens when you just open up and it's beautiful. It was actually really nice. It had both. And that's why I understand why those camps work, right? I mean, there are those places, those hostels where mainly single travelers go. I guess that's more the
Gen Z, millennial type of thing. ⁓ That's how they work, right? And that's, I always assumed that's why also women traveled, you know, like to travel more alone because I think they're chatted up more quickly than men. So I always kind of felt, ⁓ yeah, I always feel that pressure that I have to, you know, what does it say about me if I don't meet anyone or if no one talks to me? It's very weird. That's a big insecurity I have.
Marc Winter (30:01)
Yeah.
No, well, that's
pretty honest. Well, okay, mine is not to swap in security, but I think also my fear of ⁓ nature is I always wonder what the ROI is gonna be. Not to like, I know what it is if I go to a random town or a random city or some kind of experience. Like okay, well I'll see something for sure I've never seen before and I'll.
I'll probably visit some museums and history. I'll walk away with a knowledge base. And then there's something queer. In nature, it's harder. It's like, what will I teach myself? What epiphany will I have, et cetera? That said, my greatest epiphanies were in nature. I should just admit that to myself. And that's the work for it. I know. I know.
Paul Fattinger (31:06)
Hmm.
Yeah, and kind of we were, mean, I'm going to tell you now all my dimensions because we went through all of them. It's like one was where, right? The other one was, and what to do ahead, like lonely hikes or surfing camp. think yours would be more city or rather surfing camp than a lonely hike. Right. ⁓
Marc Winter (31:38)
Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (31:39)
Eating budget eats or splurge meals alone. I mean, I know what you're gonna say splurge meals alone. There's no fucking and and see that's also the funny thing is that because I like eating so much I overcome my social anxiety It's like before I'm gonna eat shit in my hotel room because then I'm gonna feel really miserable I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna sit in the middle of the best restaurant and have my meal
Marc Winter (32:00)
Yeah, that's right.
Paul Fattinger (32:01)
Yeah,
that's nice. These things kind of make me overcome it. And the other one was face loneliness or distract with podcasts. And it kind of comes back to your very first, ⁓ you know, kind of thing about the books and stuff. And a distraction.
Marc Winter (32:15)
I think this, I actually think
this is really important. know, I think back in the day when I was solo traveling, I think they were, I got more out of it on the time when I had a break. And what I mean by that is, it was felt more enriching. You know, we're so awash in amazing content. You know, this podcast included, where, you know, you can read in, get like a ton of
Paul Fattinger (32:40)
You
Marc Winter (32:43)
entertainment, insight, all of that, right? At your fingertips, at all their dimensions. And back in the day, I had to make choices about what I want to put in my brain or take it out a journal and write. And I find myself now in an era, age where I want to write more, I want to journal more. think there's some wisdoms I want to put down on paper. That said, man, like I have to delete TikTok every three weeks for my phone.
Paul Fattinger (33:08)
Me.
Marc Winter (33:12)
because I'll download it for a little bit because I'm walking the kid, it's great. And then I'm like, I'm doing that again.
Paul Fattinger (33:16)
That, funnily enough, it's
almost like smoking. I quit that two years ago and I never touched a cigarette ever again. It's the same with TikTok. It's a very similar impact. But I want to say, and I want to make a probably very strong statement here. I think if you went on a solo trip for a week to a new city and you were on your phone all the time and so on, you might as you are merely transporting your physical presence into a different geography.
Marc Winter (33:24)
Mm.
Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (33:46)
because if you stay connected to your phone and do the same things that you always do I don't think you're gonna gain great insight from that you're gonna gain you know more than researching you know a certain piece of art or a museum online because you're actually there but that's about it it is really it is you being somewhere else physically
Marc Winter (33:49)
I agree.
You know, I agree. what I did, know, you and I obviously this where this podcast started. I mean, you and I know I spent a ton of time in Paris over the past two and a half, you know, mostly on business trips, but I had a lot of time to walk, especially jet lag. I think I've walked pretty good every, you know, every square kilometer of the inner city over many times over. I used to start doing that with podcasts, you know, like, okay, I'm going to listen to podcasts. I completely swapped that out.
Paul Fattinger (34:25)
Mmm.
Marc Winter (34:35)
into either music of some kind, classical, something white, so can, that's either French or something that just relaxes my brain as I'm just wandering or that feels complimentary to what I'm seeing or...
nothing altogether and just hearing the sounds of the city and walking through the streets. And I feel like, and of course it's one of the world's great walkable cities, it's a Mark Porno in a way, but it helped me be present for what I was seeing, I think, and for the moment.
Paul Fattinger (35:13)
Yes, no and I
think you have to me I'm trying to put this in a bit of a structure than what to say but yes number one your phone needs to go away and needs to go away more than it usually does
And as an example what I did on this trip because I like I know that when I'm walking and when I do things and you when I'm spending time I get ideas and I like to record them and I usually either type them into my phone or I just leave a voicenote on my phone. However that requires you to interact with your phone and then you go on your phone and you're like and while I'm here let me check Instagram or blah blah blah. So on Amazon I ordered this very small dictating voice recorder device that you can then hook up to your phone and
and send it over and then you put it into some AI stuff and it transcripted. And I had it here on my backpack. And I just left myself voice notes on this thing all the time. It was brilliant. So I never had to touch my phone. For example, it's just those little things how you get your phone away. And I've been thinking about what are the things you do on the trip. And I like nature, so I like to go in nature. I think...
Marc Winter (36:12)
Mm.
Paul Fattinger (36:26)
to me nature brings me.
It is a door. is one of the many doors you have, I think, to presence and to yourself because it's beautiful and it has an energy that, you know, if you open yourself up, you know, kind of encapsulates you and lets you, you know, be there in a different way. then, know, adventure actually is a big travel category also in solo traveling. And I get that, right? I mean, it's either a city adventure or a nature adventure and you do things. I find that, you know, and I guess
Marc Winter (36:45)
Yeah, of course. Of course.
Paul Fattinger (36:59)
is also social because you go rafting, go windsurfing, surfing and so on and then it's social and actually you are traveling alone but you're not really alone because you're always doing things, you're learning new things, new people. So and then I thought if you're really alone I also like an alone adventure in a sense. I like that thing on a motorcycle to explore, I like to do that hike, right? ⁓ And I was also wondering whether that's almost too kind of distracting, whether it would be better to just go for a week and sometimes
Marc Winter (37:03)
Yes. Yes.
Paul Fattinger (37:29)
people do that right they go for a week and sit in the monastery that's hardcore
Marc Winter (37:33)
Yeah,
way too extreme. there's some...
Paul Fattinger (37:36)
Is it? Is
it though?
Marc Winter (37:38)
That to me isn't solo traveling. That to me is self work and maintenance, is something I would love to do. I wouldn't call it a travel. That is deep work on yourself in an exotic place. But you know, man, actually, it's funny. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (37:58)
a retreat. ⁓
Marc Winter (38:06)
I've been thinking a lot about travelogues lately. It's actually, this is a timely podcast in a way. I was thinking about one of the greatest ones I've ever read was In Patagonia by Bruce Chatwin. It's a great one if no one's read it. Werner Herzog, the German director did a nice documentary with the author. But that to me is the real romance of solo traveling. Where you...
Paul Fattinger (38:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Marc Winter (38:34)
⁓ maybe this is the right balance if you're going through structuring something, know, bit of an exotic location, some remote towns where you can still talk to people, incredible nature, riding on your bike and discovering something, a land and a country and a culture as much as you're discovering yourself. And that to me is the perfect type of ⁓ solo travel.
Paul Fattinger (38:58)
That's a beautiful, I mean we should also
leave it at that, but a...
I agree. My personal why for those trips is mostly actually the self-work and that and I would I like to combine it though with seeing a new place with being in a beautiful spot and being in nature and I caught myself having you know too high expectations that I can't look at my phone or I you know or I have to do this and when I was in Greece last year for a week in the off season so there was nobody that was really perfect
Marc Winter (39:12)
you
Hmm. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (39:34)
I mean and you kind of ease into it the first couple of days you're still more on your phone and then you kind of like Intentionally put it away and you don't even think about it and all of a sudden you have those four hours where you don't Look at it and all of a sudden you get in your car You listen to music you drive through a beautiful landscape and you have that moment where you think of something you're sitting at the beach by yourself you maybe meditate and It kind of comes to you I think you have to give it some time and you can force it if you want if you put yourself in a room alone and
Marc Winter (39:55)
Yes.
Paul Fattinger (40:04)
monastery lock the door and wait for three days something is going to come to you i mean you bet your ass something is going to come to you but you can do this in a bit of a nicer way and to me that was almost the the perfect combination on this trip though
to me and was only four days in the end there was almost too much going on for this real reflection I think in the beginning there was this anxiety but am I gonna be able to do this you know how much is the walking and that anxiety actually surfaced a lot of things but then it was almost too busy with other people etc but it had something else in store it got me exhausted so much up to a point where my knees hurt my heel hurt everything hurt and I
Marc Winter (40:29)
Hmm.
Really?
Paul Fattinger (40:52)
was really
really done and I was exhausted to the point that I was walking down a mountain and actually crying because I really hurt so bad and that also opened something up and a minute later actually I met two ladies coming up the mountain when I was going down I had a really wonderful five-minute conversation with them out of the blue which I'm usually not the type of to have those
Marc Winter (41:02)
Hmm
Were there
tears in your eyes as you were talking to them?
Paul Fattinger (41:18)
No, actually I wiped it away before. it was kind
of like, know, sometimes I feel and I had this also on another solo two day trip where I went on a hike where I just, you know, exhausted myself to a point where there was no more space or energy to think and for monkey mind and where all of a sudden the exhaustion basically kills the monkey mind. And that's also a way of doing it, if you want, at least to me, one of the doors to actually quiet.
Marc Winter (41:36)
Hmm.
you
Paul Fattinger (41:48)
that mind and and make some room for you know feelings and things to emerge and to me that's the big why on the solo trips for me personally
Marc Winter (42:00)
Hmm. Quiet the monkey mind. Yeah. That's true. Put it in the zoo.
Paul Fattinger (42:02)
It's that. Quiet the monkey mind. Find some presence and they always have something that you learn from. Yeah.
Yeah. And in the end, mean, to me, that's the clue. I like to, you know that I did a few of those.
⁓ psychedelic trips in a very therapeutic ⁓ environment with someone that really looks after you and where you take a medicine that, which is another podcast we should do clearly about different medicines. But they all open a certain door and they do this then very fast because within two days with preparation and that ceremony and so on, you're there. And I felt that those solo trips that I did also did that over a longer period of time.
Marc Winter (42:34)
I can't wait for that.
Paul Fattinger (42:49)
a bit of a softer way but they also open the door to something that you usually don't get access to and and to me that's what the purpose of my solo trips is to find those doors
Marc Winter (43:01)
Hmm.
Paul Fattinger (43:01)
The funny
thing is if you have this expectation like I had in this one, you will find a different door. For sure. And I did find a different door, right? And this one was, to me, was giving up. I gave, the trip would have been six days and I was in so much pain that I had to face ⁓ reality and say, I give up after four days, which is, very difficult. To me is a... Yeah, the third.
Marc Winter (43:23)
Paul realizing like he's in his 40s. Realizing he's
in his 40s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not hard. And for our listeners, as you know, I'm all about shortcuts, so I'll let you put two and two together and how I find my doors. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (43:28)
The terminator mindset saying I have to stop is not easy for me.
I'm
just looking into a thing. if I have any any other good prompts not really I think I think we have explored this topic it's a
Marc Winter (43:54)
Cool. This is great.
Paul Fattinger (43:57)
I think it's a bit of a more pensive one, but I would really encourage everyone to do it, because it is like everything in life. When something makes you overcome a fear or an anxiety, just go and do it and put yourself in front of it.
Marc Winter (44:10)
Okay, before we close,
before we close, what is your greatest solo trip? Most memorable.
Paul Fattinger (44:17)
I think it's the one in Greece last November. Which was very quiet in a nowhere part of that island in Crete. There were basically me and three German old couples on vacation like on this stretch of the island which is huge. And I just drove around, sat down on the beaches, read, wrote a lot. I had just know quit my job, I had a lot of things on my mind I had to work through.
ate at the same restaurant every night, started talking to the guys, were just grumpy, Greek, old man, super fun and that was fantastic. And yours?
Marc Winter (44:51)
Nice,
I was in Thailand and okay, that's class, like so cliche. But no, funny enough, I was in Bangkok and then I ended up solo by design. So was with friends for a while and then they left and I had another week and a half, two weeks to myself.
Paul Fattinger (44:59)
The beach.
Marc Winter (45:14)
I really went through the backwaters, went to the local islands, took the motorcycle, went around there, sang at the karaoke bars, got into trouble, made some friends, got, actually, literally got into a bar fight. This is the time when was falling into a sock, I've never been to bar fight myself. Basically, I didn't get into a fight. I got slapped and I got to put a broken bottle to my neck by a. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (45:42)
Jesus, wow.
Marc Winter (45:43)
Yeah,
junk English tour. It was okay. It was all part of the fun. ⁓ Probably for another podcast. But, you know, I read a lot, wrote a lot. Bar fights, exactly. So, yeah, but I learned a lot about myself on that. And I think actually maybe that's the theme. You walk away learning a little bit of it.
Paul Fattinger (45:53)
our friends.
Nice.
I think that's the theme in the summer. You learn something about yourself, there's
always something new. I think there is something to it that many great thinkers and minds of our times.
did that regularly and I guess then go into more extremes to be really in solitude because I guess then you want to get more and more out of it and you kind of it's almost like a drug also in a sense once you get used to it because sitting alone with your shit it does something and you know that you feel better afterwards so and I think it's a hygienic thing almost to do that monkey mind cleanse right and to me that's what it is because frankly to see new
Marc Winter (46:37)
Yes.
Yeah. Totally.
Paul Fattinger (46:51)
things I'd rather go and explore it with a friend because that's what I'm missing I miss not being able to share the things that I that I see there when I when I learn new things I've always that's always been the reason why I never wanted to travel alone just if I see something nice if I have a nice meet I'd love to share it and I don't mean making fucking pictures and put them in Instagram that's not sharing shit yeah okay clear
Marc Winter (47:18)
Clear. Agreed.
Paul Fattinger (47:20)
My friend, I hope this was ⁓ a strong eulogy on that you have to and should do solo trips. Guys like us should do that.
Marc Winter (47:29)
I'm in. I
think there's gotta be one before the end of the year. I have a good place to work. Alright, hit me.
Paul Fattinger (47:35)
Absolutely. Man, ⁓ coming to the next
exactly, our terminator is an Edith Zotoik.
Marc Winter (47:43)
You go first.
Paul Fattinger (47:45)
So is me. Listen, I have one that I thought about a lot on the trip and is a bit... I wouldn't say deep but it's almost a bit sad. So I told you I walked this border of ⁓ Austria and Italy ⁓ and what is very interesting there to explore is this used to be a front line in the first world war between 1915 and 18. There were people fighting on this long border between Austria and Italy but mostly in the mountain regions that's like two and a half thousand meters high so it's crazy.
Marc Winter (47:57)
Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (48:15)
really
on a mountain ridge and you see like you see you know stone houses built little bunkers built you know all those things built where they hit and it's crazy but and that's my idiots of the week is the people who had as a million people died on that front one million people
Marc Winter (48:24)
Cool.
What?
Like just getting sniped, like on the mountainside? I mean, that sounds crazy.
Paul Fattinger (48:39)
It
was a 600 km long front that basically went from the border of Austria and Switzerland to the border of, you know, over the border of Austria and Slovenia. And the biggest losses were, you know, in the Zonzo Valley, which was a bit wider. But yeah, but, know, actually about half of them, they think they don't know that of avalanches cold. I mean, you have to imagine it's fucking crazy. And it's those kind of things that, you know, is a should serve as a reminder to all these idiots out there who want to make a
Marc Winter (49:02)
Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (49:09)
you look at these things and the craziness of this and what people had to go through and suffer and still have to today and I think those yeah it's sometimes good to see that for us so far away but it's a good reminder that this is really not a great idea to do it war at such so these are my kind of idiots on the week of the week
Marc Winter (49:28)
Mm. Mm.
Cool. So my idea of the week is ⁓ Sam Altman ⁓ of OpenAI. mean, have you played with chat GPT 5.0? Like the idea to take away self-affirmation and encouragement is so crazy. It's just funny. That's what people are missing. want to, I think it's a great, it's much colder. So, you know.
Paul Fattinger (49:47)
I haven't actually because I've used mainly GROK lately.
But what is it doing? What's different about it?
Marc Winter (50:02)
Everyone knows playing with AI ⁓ tools. You enter something and what comes back is, what a great idea! Exactly! So interesting! Can we please always start with that? I you need some affirmation and they... No, they're just, they're like, here's how I can help. And I'm like, fuck you. Tell me, massage me a little bit. Yeah, exactly. And then we can have a conversation. I mean, well...
Paul Fattinger (50:10)
They're so super friendly, Yeah, exactly. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what is it saying now? Is it now saying this is really shit, you should do better?
that I'm great. I think I would like that actually. I think I would actually like that.
Marc Winter (50:32)
No, see, you think you would like it until they take it away. And then you realize, wait a second, being told that you're great first is ⁓ a prerequisite before we go deeper. yeah, what a dumbass. ⁓ Do I have a term? You know, I would like to thank ⁓ the private equity firms that decide as a gift. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (50:37)
Okay. I think that's a great edit of the week. That's fantastic. And you have a Terminator 2?
Marc Winter (51:02)
of thanks to give giant tomahawk steaks to anyone of their client bases, even including young women who don't know what to do with it. So I have a dear friend who came over with tomahawk steaks, like you can't imagine. mean, the girl, you know, the woman I should say is like five foot four. You can put that, like a little over a meter and a half, you know? And they say as a thank you, they just send her basically, you know, a third of a cow, you know? Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (51:30)
Wow! That's amazing!
Marc Winter (51:32)
So it is. And so I I obviously benefit.
Paul Fattinger (51:34)
Can you smuggle in my address please?
Marc Winter (51:36)
Yeah, I obviously benefit ⁓ from she brings it over to grow my place. But, you know, thank you. You know, keep it coming.
Paul Fattinger (51:46)
Keep it
going. Man, that's a good one. I am my terminator because we talked about, you know, feedback of our podcasts and I do listen to our podcasts actually, as you know, and then I write you like lots of text messages and they're usually about what I need to do differently because I really hate listening to myself. But I actually really love listening to you and I think you're doing a great job and that's why, you know, I think this is really inspiring. And that's why you are my terminator of the week.
Marc Winter (52:12)
Go on.
Go on. yeah. OK. ⁓ my god. Exactly. If it could sound like you, that would just be great. Yeah, exactly. That's the. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (52:14)
See I am your JGPT 5.5 baby yeah yeah I'm massaging So here you go my friend that's it right
and and that's it I think that's the end me massaging your ego take this this is the last time for 2025 and not gonna happen again you too and just leave it stay on because we're gonna we can keep on talking
Marc Winter (52:37)
Have a good one. Okay.
So.