hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic

What happens when your body starts to heal, but your mind is still trapped in survival mode? In this episode of hol+, Dr. Taz sits down with Amy Kurtz, certified health coach, patient advocate, speaker, and author "But You Look Fine", for a powerful conversation about chronic illness, Lyme disease, medical gaslighting, nervous system trauma, and what it really means to heal.

Together, they explore Amy’s 20+ year journey through unexplained pain, chronic symptoms, misdiagnosis, and the search for answers that finally led to a diagnosis of late-stage neurological Lyme disease and co-infections. Amy shares what it was like to be told her labs were normal while knowing something was deeply wrong in her body, and how years of invalidation shaped her relationship with her health, her identity, and her trust in herself.

Dr. Taz and Amy also discuss why so many people live in the “gray zone” between sick and well, especially when symptoms are invisible, complex, or hard to explain. They unpack why normal labs do not always mean optimal health, why Lyme disease can be missed for years, and how chronic illness can impact relationships, career, emotional safety, and the nervous system.

This conversation offers a grounded and hopeful look at what happens after illness, when the body may be improving but the mind and nervous system are still bracing for the next crash. Amy introduces her concept of Medical Trauma Brain, or MTB, which describes the anxiety, hypervigilance, fear, and survival patterns that can remain after chronic illness, cancer, stroke, chronic pain, or any major health crisis.

If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I know something is off in my body, but I don’t know where to start,” join the Circle here: 👉 https://holplus.co/circle

Healing is not only physical. It is shaped by the nervous system, emotional safety, medical experiences, self-trust, community, trauma, hormones, inflammation, and the way the body and mind learn to feel safe again. In this episode, Dr. Taz and Amy look at healing as a whole-person process, especially for people who have been dismissed, misdiagnosed, or told “but you look fine.”

Learn more about support related to this conversation:
Lyme Disease & Chronic Infections: https://holplus.co/conditions/lyme-disease/
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: https://holplus.co/conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

Amy shares why chronic illness can create an “illness after the illness,” why recovery often brings up grief, and why so many patients feel lost once they are expected to simply get back to normal. She explains how Medical Trauma Brain can show up as fear of relapse, obsessive symptom checking, anxiety, hypervigilance, and feeling physically better but emotionally stuck in survival mode.

Dr. Taz and Amy also explore the importance of the doctor-patient relationship, why patients need to feel believed, and how reclaiming agency can become a central part of healing. They discuss practical tools for calming the nervous system, including orienting, CBT-based stress checks, walking, rest, breathwork, meditation, exercise, and learning to pause before reacting to every internal alarm.

If you are navigating chronic illness, Lyme disease, invisible symptoms, medical gaslighting, nervous system dysregulation, fear of getting sick again, or the emotional aftermath of a long health journey, this episode offers language, validation, and practical tools to begin rebuilding trust with your body.

About The Guest:
Amy Kurtz is a certified health coach, patient advocate, speaker, and author dedicated to empowering patients to reclaim agency over their physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing. She is the author of Kicking Sick and But You Look Fine: Trapped in the Hell Between Sick and Well and How to Break Free. Amy has been featured on Good Morning America, Oprah Daily, The Boston Globe, and Wanderlust, where she was named one of their 35 women under 35 to watch in wellness.

About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz) is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician,
bestselling author, and founder of hol+ a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about

Stay Connected:
Connect further to Hol+ at https://holplus.co/- Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on future episodes of hol+.
Book a Hol+ Consultation: https://holplus.co/locations/virtual/

Follow Dr. Taz on Instagram: 
https://www.instagram.com/drtazmd/
https://www.instagram.com/liveholplus/

Subscribe to the audio podcast: https://holplus.transistor.fm/subscribe
Subscribe to the video podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@DrTazMD/podcasts

Get your copy of The Hormone Shift: Balance Your Body and Thrive Through Midlife and Menopause

Connect with Amy Kurtz:
https://amykurtz.com
https://instagram.com/@_amykurtz

Get your copy of But You Look Fine: Trapped in the Hell Between Sick and Well and How To Break Free

Host & Production Team
Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)

Chapters
00:00 What Is Medical Trauma Brain?
02:35 When Your Labs Are Normal But You Still Feel Sick
03:27 Amy Kurtz’s Chronic Illness Journey
05:20 The 36th Doctor and the Lyme Diagnosis
07:10 Symptoms That Started in Childhood
09:01 Learning to Live With Discomfort
11:20 Taking Her Health Into Her Own Hands
12:35 Medical Gaslighting and Losing Self-Trust
13:10 Why the Medical System Misses the Gray Zone
14:47 Hypothyroidism, Celiac, and Still Not Feeling Well
15:21 Writing Kicking Sick While Still Searching for Answers
17:06 Why Amy Wrote Her First Book
18:45 The Rise of Chronic Illness
20:34 Trusting Your Inner Intelligence
22:14 Why Lyme Disease Is So Often Missed
24:20 Chronic Lyme, Co-Infections, and Nervous System Symptoms
27:00 Tick Prevention and What Patients Need to Know
29:18 Lyme Testing and Late-Stage Diagnosis
30:15 Treating Bartonella, Babesia, and Lyme
32:03 Why the Doctor-Patient Relationship Matters
35:37 How Chronic Illness Changes Identity and Relationships
38:11 The Grief of Illness and Recovery
40:25 How to Support Someone With Invisible Illness
42:05 The Illness After the Illness
46:23 How to Regulate the Nervous System After Illness
49:30 Tools for Breaking Out of Survival Mode
53:48 Amy’s Book But You Look Fine

Creators and Guests

Host
Dr. Taz Bhatia MD
Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.
Producer
Pat Gostek
Founder of ClipGrowth.com - End-to-End YouTube, Podcast & Clips Management (you just record).

What is hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic?

hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining modern medicine through a comprehensive, evidence-based holistic approach; integrating functional medicine, integrative medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms.

Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.

At the heart of hol+ is a revolutionary framework: the Five Body Map- physical, mental, emotional, energetic, and social/community bodies that create whole health. This whole-human approach connects hormone imbalances, gut dysfunction, microinflammation, cortisol dysregulation, metabolic disease, autoimmune conditions, perimenopause, and stress-driven illness to the full spectrum of who we are; body, mind, and spirit.

Each episode explores Dr. Taz’s original clinical frameworks ;The Cortisol Loop, Microinflammation, and The Invisible Load alongside conversations with leading experts, celebrities, and thought leaders including Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, Katherine Schwarzenegger, Cameron Mathison, Carol Alt, Jane Seymour, Tamsen Fadal, and Kris Carr.

Topics include hormone health, gut health, GLP-1 and metabolic therapy, thyroid dysfunction, weight loss, inflammation, autoimmune disease, mental and emotional wellness, energetic health, and the future of holistic medicine.

This is the show where science and spirit converge- driving health, happiness, relationships, and family ecosystems.

Want to go deeper? Join Dr. Taz’s private community, the hol+ Circle ; medicine beyond the exam room. (holplus.co/circle)

A 2025 Webby Award honoree, recognized alongside the Mel Robbins Podcast in the 29th Annual Webby Awards, hol+ is built on the foundation of Super Woman Wellness, which surpassed 1 million downloads over 8 years.

This is medicine beyond the exam room. Welcome to hol+

[00:00:00] Amy Kurtz: It's so detrimental to say that the physical body is separate from the [00:00:05] mental- Thank you ... emotional, spiritual self. They are one. And in this country, we [00:00:10] look at them as separate, and they're not. They, there's literally no way to [00:00:15] separate them. So you're calling it medical trauma brain. Or MTB. I interviewed many, [00:00:20] many physicians.
[00:00:20] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. The people that I'm closest to as well. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Have you seen [00:00:25] this where the patient is better, but they're not better? Or it's like they're better, but they're [00:00:30] still acting as if they're sick?" And when I would say it, there was a real recognition [00:00:35] of, "Oh, yeah, I see... I do. I see that all the time."
[00:00:37] Amy Kurtz: And then I'd say, "What's the name of it?" And [00:00:40] nobody knew. So I created it. Amy
[00:00:43] Dr. Taz: Kurtz is a [00:00:45] certified health coach, a patient advocate, a speaker, and an author dedicated [00:00:50] to empowering patients to reclaim agency over their physical, mental, and emotional [00:00:55]
[00:00:55] Amy Kurtz: wellbeing. I was physically better, but my mind was still on the survival hamster wheel, [00:01:00] and it hadn't gotten the memo.
[00:01:01] Amy Kurtz: And so for me it was like an illness after an illness. It applies to [00:01:05] cancer patients- Yeah ... to patients who have had acute illnesses like strokes. You are in [00:01:10] survival. Mm. And unless you work to get out of survival, you will always be [00:01:15] stuck in what I call the shadow lands. It was like I was out to dinner with my friends.
[00:01:19] Amy Kurtz: I was having a [00:01:20] good time, and yet there was a part of me- Like there, yeah ... where my brain was, like, trapped in a [00:01:25] sandstorm desert all alone. I was so anxious. Yeah. Like, I was [00:01:30] really, really struggling because I was terrified that I was gonna get sick again.
[00:01:34] Dr. Taz: [00:01:35] Amy has been featured on Good Morning America, Oprah Daily, the Boston Globe, and so [00:01:40] many other media outlets, including Wanderlust, where she was named one of their [00:01:45] 35 women under 35 to watch in wellness.
[00:01:48] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming [00:01:50] Amy to the show. This episode is sponsored by HolPlus, a holistic health platform [00:01:55] built around education, personalization, and integrative care. HolPlus [00:02:00] blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine clinics with learning [00:02:05] resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this podcast, so you're not just treated, [00:02:10] you're informed.
[00:02:11] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness [00:02:15] shop, helping you make choices that support your body at the root level. [00:02:20] HolPlus is holistic healthcare designed for real life. Visit us at [00:02:25] HolPlus.co to learn more about the platform. Again, that's [00:02:30] HolPlus.co. Okay, Amy, there's a reason I brought you on this show.[00:02:35]
[00:02:35] Dr. Taz: These are the words I heard, and I think you've heard them too. You know, "You're [00:02:40] normal. Your labs are fine. You look fine. Everything's [00:02:45] okay. I think this is all in your head." I was told that back in [00:02:50] my mid-20s when I was on my own health journey, and I have met countless of patients [00:02:55] since that time, it's been over 25 years since then, who have heard the [00:03:00] same lines told to them over and over again.
[00:03:03] Dr. Taz: When I was reading your [00:03:05] story and kind of of, you know, what you've been through, I, I really resonated with a lot [00:03:10] of what, you know, you've been through as well. So I think you've heard those sa- same exact [00:03:15] words uttered to you, and it motivated you not only to heal [00:03:20] yourself, right, but also to really create something that will heal others.
[00:03:24] Dr. Taz: So tell us a [00:03:25] little bit about what you went through.
[00:03:27] Amy Kurtz: Well, I have had a [00:03:30] long and winding journey with medical health conditions that felt like a mystery for a [00:03:35] long time. I started having pretty intense pain when I was 14, [00:03:40] went to a bunch of doctors. Nobody really could identify the root cause [00:03:45] of the condition.
[00:03:46] Amy Kurtz: Was put on anti-inflammatories. Managed, [00:03:50] but my life really shifted in that moment because I went from being a young, vibrant kid [00:03:55] to being a kid in pain. And then I managed, and then at [00:04:00] 25 I went abroad and had really a health crisis- Mm ... where [00:04:05] every system in my body started to really struggle. I came home.
[00:04:09] Amy Kurtz: I gained [00:04:10] 30 pounds in 30 days. I couldn't breathe. I was losing my hair. I was... It [00:04:15] was so intense and so fast, and it sent me on a quest to figure out [00:04:20] what was happening. But, but the answers weren't clear, and the situation was [00:04:25] so, um, so dire that it demanded a [00:04:30] different medical system than I was used to.
[00:04:32] Amy Kurtz: Like, I come from a very Western-minded- Right ... [00:04:35] lineage of physicians. I love Western medicine, but for what I was going through, I found [00:04:40] myself looking in different directions than anything I had ever known. I went all the way to [00:04:45] Eastern medicine, found myself somewhere in the middle, found functional medicine, which [00:04:50] greatly helped me.
[00:04:50] Amy Kurtz: But still, for 10 years, I was wrongly [00:04:55] diagnosed, not with things that I didn't have. Like, I do have hypothyroidism. Mm-hmm. I do [00:05:00] have celiac. But what ended up becoming was that after the press for my [00:05:05] first book, Kicking Sick, I thought, "I don't have this figured out." [00:05:10] Yeah. I feel like I'm this glowing picture of health on the cover of [00:05:15] the book, and I would go home and feel like, "I don't know how I'm gonna do this.
[00:05:19] Amy Kurtz: I feel like [00:05:20] I'm crashing. I know my body. I know something's wrong." I went to my 36th [00:05:25] doctor. 36? And he looked at me very clearly. You know, I brought my [00:05:30] Harry Potter anthology of medical records. I put my hope and trust and finances [00:05:35] and all of my energy into one more doctor- Right ... because I had heard [00:05:40] wonderful things about him, and I wanted better for myself.
[00:05:43] Amy Kurtz: And he did all the testing [00:05:45] again. I was hoping and praying that he would have an answer for me that actually [00:05:50] made sense and didn't make me feel like I was treading water. And he looked at me [00:05:55] very clearly and said, "I know exactly what's going on. You have late-stage neurological Lyme [00:06:00] and co-infections." Oh, wow.
[00:06:01] Amy Kurtz: And it was like everything inside of my body knew it was [00:06:05] true, every part of me. It vibrated through me like- I [00:06:10] was so proud that I hadn't given up on myself. Right. But I also felt a tremendous amount of [00:06:15] grief for the invalidation or the [00:06:20] gaslighting that I'd experienced, the years that I lost from my young life.
[00:06:24] Amy Kurtz: I [00:06:25] mean, 25 is the time when you're supposed to be flourishing- Right ... into who you're about to [00:06:30] become, and I was moving back home with my parents to try to figure out what was wrong. That's
[00:06:34] Dr. Taz: around the age that [00:06:35] I got sick as well. Oh. And that's just such a- Such a pivotal moment ... such a pivotal [00:06:40] moment, because you're supposed to be, like, excited and, you know, finish college, finish med school, [00:06:45] finish all these different things, and instead you're starting to take steps backwards [00:06:50] in some ways, you know?
[00:06:50] Dr. Taz: So- Yeah, and it fr- it
[00:06:51] Amy Kurtz: just isolates you- Yeah ... so much further than the [00:06:55] experience of being sick in general- Right ... which is already so isolating. It's like you're watching [00:07:00] everybody that's your age become who- Who they're supposed to be, and- And [00:07:05] you're like, "Wait, I'm on pause" ... and you're left behind. Yeah.
[00:07:06] Dr. Taz: So yeah.
[00:07:07] Dr. Taz: So- So frustrating. So this is a [00:07:10] 10 to 12 year journey for you, where symptoms actually set in around 13 or [00:07:15] 14, but you don't really get your diagnosis until about 25-ish or so. Is that [00:07:20] correct? I didn't get the Lyme diagnosis until 35. Until 35. Oh [00:07:25] my gosh. Okay. So, you know, that is a long span of time. Yeah.
[00:07:28] Dr. Taz: That's like a 20 year [00:07:30] span of time. Yeah. You know, in looking backwards, it's always easier to look backwards, [00:07:35] right? And, and kind of, you know, see your journey in hindsight. You know, what [00:07:40] was being, I don't wanna say dismissed, but what were you telling [00:07:45] doctors, even starting at 14? What, what was the input you were getting back?[00:07:50]
[00:07:51] Amy Kurtz: Um, at 14 I, I, I [00:07:55] don't... I just remember people saying, "We don't have a clear idea of what's happening. [00:08:00] Maybe it's growing pains." It didn't feel very... It didn't feel [00:08:05] dismissive at that age. It just didn't feel clear, and I was a child. Right. So I was like, [00:08:10] "Okay, well I guess then I'll just take these anti-inflammatories," and [00:08:15] it wasn't- Did they work?
[00:08:15] Dr. Taz: Did the anti-inflammatories work? A little bit. Okay.
[00:08:17] Amy Kurtz: You know? But- Did
[00:08:18] Dr. Taz: you have labs [00:08:20] done or any tests run at the age of 14? Everything. Okay. And I went to
[00:08:22] Amy Kurtz: good doctors. I mean- Yeah ... my father's a physician. Like- Okay ... [00:08:25] I went to good specialists. Mm-hmm. And I had the privilege of doing that, and I [00:08:30] still didn't have an answer.
[00:08:31] Amy Kurtz: And it's re- it's kind of ridiculous, because I grew up in [00:08:35] the Lyme belt. Yeah. But nobody was talking about Lyme in the '90s. Right. I don't know anyone- [00:08:40] I remember. Yeah ... who ever was talking about Lyme. Now I look back and it's so clear based on my [00:08:45] original symptoms that I was bitten- Mm ... that young. Mm. And I think everything else [00:08:50] just sort of snowballed.
[00:08:51] Dr. Taz: So what ha- so you take these anti-inflammatories, you get through high [00:08:55] school, you go to college I'm assuming. Mm-hmm. You know, how are you managing day to day? [00:09:00] What's happening?
[00:09:01] Amy Kurtz: Well, it's funny because you really adjust to your [00:09:05] baseline. Yeah. And I think I had just adjusted to being [00:09:10] uncomfortable. Like, I almost, looking back, think I thought that was normal that I was in [00:09:15] pain or that I...
[00:09:16] Amy Kurtz: I just Now I'm like, "Oh my God." Yeah. That's so [00:09:20] not- Yeah ... so not normal that you felt uncomfortable all the time, [00:09:25] you know? But I just thought- Is this something like- ... this is just me ...
[00:09:27] Dr. Taz: someone outside of you could see or not [00:09:30] necessarily? No. No. This is all internal. Like, you're trying to- Yeah ... trying to just make it [00:09:35] through, not talking about it, not telling people about it.
[00:09:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah, no. You know, managing with [00:09:40] anti-inflammatories, I'm assuming. Mm-hmm. Wow, okay. So then when the crisis [00:09:45] component hit, what was happening there? It was- And the reason, there's a reason I'm asking you these questions. [00:09:50] I'm not trying to interrogate you here, but the reason I'm asking is because so many people [00:09:55] do exactly what you did, you know, that they have this inner [00:10:00] knowing of something's off, something's not 100% right, I don't feel great, [00:10:05] but they learn to silence it.
[00:10:07] Dr. Taz: And they silence it in different ways. [00:10:10] They may take medications. They may sleep more. They may say no to things that [00:10:15] they could have said yes to. You know, it looks different on- Mm-hmm ... on everybody. But [00:10:20] that, like, silencing of your inner intelligence is something that I think really works [00:10:25] against us, and I think that we've been trained and taught to not trust that.
[00:10:28] Dr. Taz: So you're moving [00:10:30] through these years, it sounds like, trying to patch it, you know, like, "Okay, [00:10:35] it's fine. Let's push it down." Yeah. You know, pretend like everything's okay. [00:10:40] What forced you... Like, I had that same moment, like, but what forced you to be like, [00:10:45] "Okay, we, we can't keep brushing this one under the rug"?
[00:10:48] Amy Kurtz: Well, when I went... [00:10:50] And I fully agree with that. I, I often look back at my life now and can see that [00:10:55] when I was 14, I was just trying to fit in. Yeah, such an issue- And- ... for [00:11:00] teens, yeah ... being a 14-year-old girl is hard enough. Right. I mean, it's pretty brutal. [00:11:05] So I could see that I was just trying to- [00:11:10] adapt and be as normal as possible, but now I look back and see that that's actually detrimental [00:11:15] to-
[00:11:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:11:15] Amy Kurtz: be putting on a mask or pretending things are fine when they're not.
[00:11:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Amy Kurtz: But it wasn't [00:11:20] until I got back from my trip abroad, and I had clearly eaten something wrong, and [00:11:25] there was just a tipping point that had happened, that I said, "Okay, my body's in [00:11:30] an emergency mode now, and I'm not settling for unclear [00:11:35] answers."
[00:11:35] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. So that's what made me take my health into my own hands. I had only grown up [00:11:40] around Western medicine, and I went in every other direction. [00:11:45] Wow. And I realized, okay, I'm gonna try to make myself feel better, so I [00:11:50] started learning about anti-inflammatory diets- Mm-hmm ... and mindfulness, and [00:11:55] it sent me on a journey that I actually look back and feel grateful for, [00:12:00] because I found a depth within myself and an [00:12:05] empowerment within myself that I don't think I would've necessarily found if it- Yeah
[00:12:08] Amy Kurtz: hadn't have [00:12:10] happened.
[00:12:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Amy Kurtz: But even so, at that point, I was fighting for answers, and I [00:12:15] still didn't have clear answers for another 10 years. Wow. I had clearer answers, [00:12:20] but I really was just in survival mode, throwing [00:12:25] spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick, trying everything everyone gave me. I didn't [00:12:30] even know what was working anymore.
[00:12:31] Amy Kurtz: There were some things that really helped. There were a lot that r- that really [00:12:35] didn't.
[00:12:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:35] Amy Kurtz: And along that way, which I think is a very universal [00:12:40] feeling for many patients with these invisible illnesses, there was a lot [00:12:45] of gaslighting- Yeah ... and invalidation, and [00:12:50] making me question my trust in myself.
[00:12:54] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. Which I [00:12:55] think is one of the most detrimental things that can happen to a long-term patient- Yeah [00:13:00] The experience of it within a system [00:13:05] that doesn't support the gray can really erode your trust in [00:13:10] yourself.
[00:13:10] Dr. Taz: I think that's one of the fundamental flaws of, you know, there, we can talk about the [00:13:15] medical system from here to eternity, but I think one of the fundamental flaws of the medical system today [00:13:20] is that it is not designed to treat anything other than the [00:13:25] super, super, obviously sick, right?
[00:13:27] Dr. Taz: It's, it, it helps the extremes, but it's [00:13:30] really not set up for the gray zone. It's not set up for the preventive zone- Yes ... you know, or the [00:13:35] optimization zone by any means. And I think that that journey, just thinking about you going from [00:13:40] 14 to 25 and not having a system that says, [00:13:45] "Okay. Hey, let's track your markers.
[00:13:46] Dr. Taz: Let's see where they're going." You know? "Okay, they're moving in a [00:13:50] different direction. Yes, they could be, quote-unquote, 'normal' by the standards we've established, but they might [00:13:55] not be normal for you." Yeah. If you were tracking those, if we had a system that allowed tracking of [00:14:00] those on a consistent basis, then, you know, maybe we could catch people [00:14:05] before they have this critical point, right?
[00:14:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Or this crash-out point, and be able to turn it [00:14:10] around, you know, and then have another, you know, have the proper mechanisms in place to turn things [00:14:15] around. So we have a twofold- Yeah ... issue of not, not tracking and trending and individualizing, but then [00:14:20] also not really having the toolbox on the other side of that.
[00:14:22] Dr. Taz: Mm. You know? But okay, so you [00:14:25] have, you have the final tipping point. You're going on this journey of seeing all [00:14:30] these different people. What were they telling you?
[00:14:33] Amy Kurtz: When I finally took [00:14:35] my health into my hands- Yeah ... and started to see people who had really good reputations that I had done my [00:14:40] research on, who looked at things holistically, who, who were functional [00:14:45] medicine physicians, that's where I landed.
[00:14:47] Amy Kurtz: Um, they diagnosed me [00:14:50] with hypothyroidism. That was true. Okay. You know, I have celiac, that's true. [00:14:55] But I was better. I just didn't have a baseline for [00:15:00] what health really felt like- Mm ... anymore. And [00:15:05] so after I wrote my first book, like I said earlier, I- Kicking [00:15:10] Sick, right? ... I knew something was wrong. So when was that first book?
[00:15:14] Dr. Taz: When was that? [00:15:15] 2017. And where were you on this journey at that point? I didn't have my Lyme diagnosis. [00:15:20]
[00:15:21] Amy Kurtz: So you had your- So it's literally called Kicking Sick: Your Go-To Guide [00:15:25] for Thriving with Chronic Health Conditions, and I still stand by everything I said in [00:15:30] it. However, I was treading water, and all of the things that I put in there [00:15:35] really do help me, and they really did help me.
[00:15:38] Amy Kurtz: But what was so [00:15:40] insane is that I would go home from press and feel [00:15:45] exhausted. Terrible. And I would feel like, "I don't know, I don't know how to have the energy [00:15:50] to meet this moment that I feel so lucky to have." And I wrote this book because it [00:15:55] was the book that I needed. Yeah. I couldn't find literally anything out there besides how [00:16:00] to be sick and tired.
[00:16:01] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And I was never willing to subscribe to that.
[00:16:04] Dr. Taz: If you're [00:16:05] listening to this and thinking, "I know something is off in my body, [00:16:10] but I don't know where to start," this is for you That's why I [00:16:15] created the Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus on [00:16:20] understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity [00:16:25] with real-life guidance that you can actually use.
[00:16:28] Dr. Taz: This is about clarity and [00:16:30] consistency and support beyond the exam room and maybe outside of [00:16:35] all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to. You can try the [00:16:40] Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code podcast at [00:16:45] holplus.co/circle. Again, that's Hol Plus, [00:16:50] HolPlus.co/circle.
[00:16:52] Dr. Taz: All right, let's jump back into the episode. [00:16:55] So what motivated you to write the first book, then? You must have been feeling better- [00:17:00] Yeah ... than your previous- I was ... baseline to be motivated to even write that. I was. What, what was happening when [00:17:05] you were writing that first book?
[00:17:06] Amy Kurtz: Um, well, I felt so much better.
[00:17:08] Amy Kurtz: You know, I started [00:17:10] eating an anti-inflammatory diet. My pain went away in my back. Ah, okay. I started to [00:17:15] help my thyroid. I felt so much better. So I was... I really thought, "Okay, this is, [00:17:20] like, what I have to deal with." And, and in the darkest moments when I had to [00:17:25] move back home with my parents, I remember just searching [00:17:30] for something to give me hope- Hmm
[00:17:32] Amy Kurtz: something to give me ways to help [00:17:35] myself. Yeah. I was desperately searching for that, and all I could find w- was literally [00:17:40] the book, How to Be Sick and Tired.
[00:17:41] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:17:42] Amy Kurtz: And I just was, like, [00:17:45] 30-plus-years old. I'm like, "I'm not, I'm not gonna [00:17:50] live like that. There's no way that that can be it." Yeah. It can't... That can't be [00:17:55] it.
[00:17:55] Amy Kurtz: That can't be the answer- Right ... for young people with- Right ... chronic illnesses. Right. So I [00:18:00] decided I had spent so much time, money, energy, emotional, [00:18:05] um-
[00:18:06] Dr. Taz: Investment ... investment- Yeah ... yeah.
[00:18:08] Amy Kurtz: Thank you. Um, [00:18:10] trying to find people that could help me, from doctors to healers [00:18:15] to thought leaders to meditation teachers to everything, and [00:18:20] I just wanted other people to have a resource guide so that they didn't have to [00:18:25] waste- Hmm.
[00:18:25] Amy Kurtz: I see ... time, energy, and money- Trying to find the [00:18:30] right people. So it was really a love letter from my heart to any patient that's struggling [00:18:35] with chronic health condition, and at that time, the statistic was one in [00:18:40] two, 150 million people had at least one chronic health condition.
[00:18:44] Dr. Taz: [00:18:45] Mm.
[00:18:45] Amy Kurtz: So now- It's even higher
[00:18:46] Amy Kurtz: it's 194 million. Yeah. Yeah. So [00:18:50] that's a huge leap. That's a 25% increase between both books, [00:18:55] and I just felt like if I'm suffering this way, then so many people are suffering, [00:19:00] um, and wanna help themselves. I mean, it can't just be how to be sick and tired. That cannot be the [00:19:05] narrative anymore. No,
[00:19:05] Dr. Taz: and then, uh, so 150 million in 2017 to 194 [00:19:10] million today in 2026, a decade, right, roughly between the two timestamps.
[00:19:14] Dr. Taz: [00:19:15] You know, that's a really big number, and I think it's skewing younger. Do you [00:19:20] know if it's skewing to a younger demographic necessarily or not? [00:19:25] From what I see in practice, it seems to be- Yeah, I think you would know that better than me ... where I get a lot- Yeah ... [00:19:30] more young people coming in, you know, symptoms that you can't [00:19:35] explain very clearly.
[00:19:36] Dr. Taz: But I guess the common symptom is, like, chronic fatigue, [00:19:40] brain fog. Mm-hmm. You know, s- kind of this cognitive fog is probably the best way to describe it, [00:19:45] and then something else. Like, it's usually that plus a few other things. Yeah. And [00:19:50] it, it seems to be skewing, you know, younger and younger. And, you know, it concerns me [00:19:55] for younger people, you know, I have a daughter who's 18, a son who's 17, you know, of what that means.
[00:19:59] Dr. Taz: [00:20:00] Is it environmental? You know, where is this all coming from? And we talk about it, you know, [00:20:05] frequently. Is it, is it just the modern, you know, it's like the modern disease [00:20:10] burden? We had an infectious disease burden in the past. Now, is this the modern disease [00:20:15] burden, this, like, chronic inflammatory something, you know?
[00:20:18] Dr. Taz: Hmm. But you write this book, and [00:20:20] you hope that people will be helped by it because you've invested a lot, spent a lot of [00:20:25] money on your health journey, and then you go home in 2017, and you're feeling like [00:20:30] crap. Like, what made you realize that you may not have all the answers yet?
[00:20:34] Amy Kurtz: I [00:20:35] just knew it. It was an intuitive, deep voice inside [00:20:40] myself saying, "This isn't it."
[00:20:42] Dr. Taz: Hmm. Because- That
[00:20:43] Amy Kurtz: inner
[00:20:43] Dr. Taz: intelligence [00:20:45] again.
[00:20:45] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And I trust that voice, and I always have. [00:20:50] And it may have been under cobwebs for a little while, but- Right ... [00:20:55] I just would come home from amazing opportunities to share my [00:21:00] voice and share my story and help other people, and I did. And then I would just come home [00:21:05] and feel like I don't know how I'm going to do this.
[00:21:08] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:21:09] Amy Kurtz: And it [00:21:10] was so painful because I had this beautiful opportunity in front of me, [00:21:15] but I wish that I had known what I know now and done it maybe... [00:21:20] I, I just w- it just would be different. But- Yeah ... but anyway, I, I, I [00:21:25] really am grateful for that because it allowed me to stop and say, [00:21:30] "Okay There's still something going on.
[00:21:34] Amy Kurtz: I know this [00:21:35] because no matter what I do, I cannot find the energy to- Mm ... meet any moment the [00:21:40] way that I want to.
[00:21:41] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:21:42] Amy Kurtz: And that was a hard reckoning, you know? Like, especially [00:21:45] being in the position that I was and feeling like, do I do this again? [00:21:50] I've been to 35 people. Wow. Like, do I do this again?
[00:21:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah. But
[00:21:53] Amy Kurtz: I believed in myself, and I [00:21:55] wanted better for myself, and I had heard of this physician for a long [00:22:00] time. I had always sort of been thinking about him in the back of my head. Yeah. And I just [00:22:05] sent him an email, told him what was going on, told him how many people that I've seen, and I knew he had a wait [00:22:10] list, and I just said, "Will you see me?"
[00:22:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:22:12] Amy Kurtz: And he said yes. Amazing.
[00:22:14] Dr. Taz: So let's [00:22:15] talk a little bit about Lyme because I feel like it's one of the biggest sort of misses. You know, there are a [00:22:20] family of diagnoses that I feel like, first of all, are very difficult to make, and then secondly, get missed [00:22:25] frequently in the exam room. I feel like Lyme is one of those.
[00:22:27] Dr. Taz: Epstein-Barr is another one. Mm-hmm. [00:22:30] Mycoplasma is another one. A lot of these, like, you know, sort of chronic infections. W- why are we [00:22:35] so confused about Lyme? That's a loaded question.
[00:22:39] Amy Kurtz: [00:22:40] I know. That's why I asked. I think we are ... Well, I [00:22:45] know- Yeah ... we're behind. Yeah. And it is [00:22:50] very sneaky because not, um, I believe it's under [00:22:55] 30% of people get a bull's-eye rash, which is a clear- Right
[00:22:57] Amy Kurtz: sign that you've been- And that's what we've been
[00:22:58] Dr. Taz: trained, like, look [00:23:00] for the bull's-eye rash, you know? Right. But
[00:23:01] Amy Kurtz: if only 30 people get that rash- Right ... how many [00:23:05] people are missing that they've been bitten by a tick? An acute infection's so different than a [00:23:10] long-term infection. Mm-hmm. But once you reach late stage, it has [00:23:15] infiltrated into your body, and it is called the great imitator for a reason.
[00:23:19] Amy Kurtz: It [00:23:20] literally survives and mimics other conditions, and it certainly did [00:23:25] for me. Wow. So- Do you think you were bitten at, like, 14? Yes. Oh, wow. Because at [00:23:30] first I wasn't sure. Like, I could only see some missed signs in my labs in my [00:23:35] 30s, but ... Or sorry, in my 20s. There were things that should've been checked [00:23:40] that were missed, but I know now, knowing what I [00:23:45] know and knowing what the onset symptoms can feel like, that I have no doubt in my mind that [00:23:50] it started then.
[00:23:50] Amy Kurtz: I don't have the labs to prove it- Right ... but I know it. So
[00:23:54] Dr. Taz: Lyme, the [00:23:55] way we were trained, right, and you already know this 'cause you've seen so many physicians, but you get bitten [00:24:00] by a tick, you get the bull's-eye rash, you go on a short course of doxycycline. The story is usually [00:24:05] over. I think conventional medicine accepts, like, some people may develop chronic [00:24:10] Lyme, but chronic Lyme is, you know, limited, may flare if your immune [00:24:15] system is weak, you know, those type of things.
[00:24:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. How was your experience different? [00:24:20]
[00:24:20] Amy Kurtz: I, well, I, I was [00:24:25] so ill, and I was in so much acute pain when I was young. [00:24:30] It wasn't just physical pain, it was neural- like nervous system pain. Yeah. I [00:24:35] could feel people behind me. It felt like my nerves were jumping out of themselves. I didn't have the [00:24:40] classic joint pain- Right
[00:24:41] Amy Kurtz: or flu-like symptoms. Like, I've sat with my mom and been like, "What [00:24:45] was happening at this time?" Yeah, yeah. You know, asked her. But it's been, [00:24:50] it's been really, um, very- a very interesting experience to learn [00:24:55] more. I'm on the board of a place called Project Lyme. Mm-hmm. It's a wonderful foundation. Yeah. And there's [00:25:00] so much that we don't know- Mm
[00:25:02] Amy Kurtz: that's not in the mainstream about how to remove a [00:25:05] tick. Mm. How... That we should be sending it to a lab if you find it so you know what infections it [00:25:10] has. Um, and a short round of doxycycline- It's not enough ... from what [00:25:15] I've heard, doesn't work for people. It's not enough. Yeah. And so [00:25:20] I just think that there's not enough information, and we, we-- It's [00:25:25] such a growing epidemic.
[00:25:26] Amy Kurtz: I mean, literally right before the actual pandemic, I was at [00:25:30] a gala for a Lyme disease foundation, and they said, "This is an epidemic [00:25:35] that's happening." Wow. And then the pandemic hit. Then the pandemic
[00:25:38] Dr. Taz: hit. So the Lyme [00:25:40] belt you mentioned, it's, it's really this northern area of the country, correct? Yes. Are there [00:25:45] are- other areas that should be concerned or be thinking about it?
[00:25:47] Amy Kurtz: I
[00:25:47] Dr. Taz: don't think-- I think it's everywhere. [00:25:50] Yeah. I do, too. So you know, uh, you know, I'm in Atlanta, based in Atlanta. Mm-hmm. And I go back and [00:25:55] forth. But I know in the South, they don't think Lyme is even a [00:26:00] possibility. They're like, "We don't have ticks in Georgia. We don't have, you know, Lyme ticks in Georgia." And I [00:26:05] know that that's not true, right, 'cause we've seen it there as well.
[00:26:08] Dr. Taz: Do, do you think doctors [00:26:10] and patients, you know, today need to be thinking about Lyme disease in the differential [00:26:15] no matter where you are, not limiting it to geography if you're having, like, chronic [00:26:20] pain, neurological symptoms, you know? I don't know if there is anything-- joint pain. I don't know if there's anything else you [00:26:25] would add to that list.
[00:26:25] Amy Kurtz: Also, if you've been in a more wooded area and you have intense [00:26:30] flu-like symptoms- Mm. Mm-hmm ... that could be a sign. Like, intense body aches and symptoms, like [00:26:35] you feel really ill.
[00:26:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:26:36] Amy Kurtz: Um, I think it's everywhere. I know someone who got [00:26:40] bitten in Central Park in New York City- Oh, wow ... because a dog had been upstate and came [00:26:45] to the city.
[00:26:45] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. And it's just-- it's not something that can be ignored. My, [00:26:50] my doctor says he's-- has tick-borne illness patients all over the [00:26:55] country. Yeah. So I think it's something that everybody should be aware of. And the most [00:27:00] important thing at this point is being preventative- Mm ... which a lot of people [00:27:05] don't talk about.
[00:27:05] Amy Kurtz: Right. And how can you be preventative? Well, a lot-- there's a lot of [00:27:10] things you can do. One is, um, you, if you live in a wooded [00:27:15] area- Right ... you can get your lawn sprayed with permethrin. I do that every other week because that's [00:27:20] the cycle that, um, ticks- grow in. [00:27:25] Also, um, I check myself once a day. Okay. Because ticks [00:27:30] can be as little as a poppy seed.
[00:27:31] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:32] Amy Kurtz: So if I'm staying outside of the [00:27:35] city, I'll just do a quick body check. You know, they like staying in dark places [00:27:40] like- They like the scalp, don't they? ... your scalp. Yeah, yeah. Your armpit. Yeah. Like, anywhere that they can hide, [00:27:45] they will. And it's not to be, like, hypervigilant [00:27:50] about it. That's not what it's about.
[00:27:51] Amy Kurtz: It's just about saying, "Okay, this is something that's affecting so many [00:27:55] people, so I wanna be careful." My very good friend created something called the Tick Mitt- [00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Dr. Taz: Mm ... which
[00:28:00] Amy Kurtz: is a mitt that you can literally put on your dog or [00:28:05] literally put on- Ah ... your s- clothes- Uh-huh ... after you've been in a wooded area, and if [00:28:10] there's a tick, it will stick.
[00:28:11] Amy Kurtz: You put it in the dryer for 15 minutes. Just brilliant. Yeah. It's so [00:28:15] smart. Yeah. And it's really just knowing, okay, if I do find a tick on me, how do I [00:28:20] remove it properly? Where do I send it? How can I prevent something from [00:28:25] affecting me? Because what I know is that the people who have suffered with it long [00:28:30] term, it is so debilitating, and it does not discriminate against [00:28:35] anyone.
[00:28:35] Amy Kurtz: Wow. What is the right way to remove a tick? They say to take a thin-tipped [00:28:40] tweezer- Okay ... and to remove it from the head. Right. 'Cause you don't want to take the body [00:28:45] off and have the head still- Still in there ... because it can, I think, do- I don't wanna be quoted on this- Right, right, [00:28:50] right ... but I think it can release more.
[00:28:52] Amy Kurtz: Um, so and then you would [00:28:55] send it to, there are plenty of labs- Yeah ... that you could send it to, um, to get it tested because then you [00:29:00] know. A tick can have up to 12 inf- co-infections. Yeah. I have [00:29:05] three.
[00:29:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Amy Kurtz: So you know if you got bitten, you can see what that tick [00:29:10] had and know accordingly. It's just an empowerment thing.
[00:29:13] Amy Kurtz: It's saying- Right ... "Okay, I'm gonna get ahead of [00:29:15] this instead of be behind it and just wait and
[00:29:16] Dr. Taz: see." So what was the lab test that finally diagnosed [00:29:20] your, do you remember, that diagnosed your Lyme disease? So, um- 'Cause there's a lot of debate about testing. Well, that's the [00:29:25] other thing- You know? Yeah, yeah ... is that
[00:29:26] Amy Kurtz: if you have late-stage Lyme, a blood test is not going to show [00:29:30] it.
[00:29:30] Amy Kurtz: Right. And that's what makes it extra complicated. I am the type of person, like, [00:29:35] I wanna go at every angle-
[00:29:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:29:37] Amy Kurtz: and prove it. So we did, [00:29:40] I did what he recommended, which was an IGeneX- Yes ... full panel. Yes. Um, Armin [00:29:45] Labs.
[00:29:45] Dr. Taz: Okay. And I
[00:29:46] Amy Kurtz: did one other lab that I can't remember, um, in this moment, [00:29:50] but just so I could see the three results, and they all lined up.
[00:29:53] Amy Kurtz: Wow. [00:29:55] And I think there's also a misconception about late-stage Lyme, which is that- [00:30:00] Some people say, "Well, do you ever really get better?" But I feel like I have [00:30:05] a whole new body. Wow. And every time I've treated an infection, I've felt [00:30:10] better and better and better, probably than I ever have in my whole life.
[00:30:13] Dr. Taz: So what were the three [00:30:15] co-infections that you had? I'm just curious. I have Bartonella
[00:30:17] Amy Kurtz: and Babesia- Okay ... and Lyme, Borrelia. So did
[00:30:19] Dr. Taz: you go [00:30:20] on separate protocols for each of those? Mm-hmm. Can you tell us a little bit about what started to turn you around [00:30:25] once you got the diagnosis?
[00:30:26] Amy Kurtz: Sure. I, I think number one [00:30:30] is- I, my doctor suggested to me, and [00:30:35] he does both antibiotics- Yeah
[00:30:36] Amy Kurtz: and herbs- Right ... that he thought I would have an easier time with an [00:30:40] herbal protocol, which is sort of what I preferred anyway. Right. However, once I knew that this had been [00:30:45] plaguing me, I'm like, "Get this out of me as fast as possible." Right. Let's do whatever. But I've [00:30:50] done mostly herbs. Okay. And I've had a profound reaction.
[00:30:50] Amy Kurtz: Really? And he said, "You will get sick before you get better. It's a die-off treatment." Mm. "It,[00:30:55]
[00:30:59] Amy Kurtz: it will [00:31:00] cause a Herx reaction if it's working." And it did, but because I knew [00:31:05] that it would be like climbing a mountain and then getting to a new apex-
[00:31:09] Dr. Taz: [00:31:10] Mm-hmm ...
[00:31:10] Amy Kurtz: I was like, I believed in myself. I believed him. Mm-hmm. I really trusted [00:31:15] him. Mm-hmm. And he was one of the first doctors that wasn't throwing so many things at me at once.
[00:31:19] Amy Kurtz: [00:31:20] Right. So we went slow and steady, and then I treated Bartonella first because [00:31:25] my symptoms were mostly Bartonella based. It seemed that that was like the dragon I had to [00:31:30] slay. Right, right. And I really did feel like, wow, he was so right. I, [00:31:35] I am a different person. Wow. And then I went to the next one. So [00:31:40] it was, it's been a long journey, but I'd been living with it much longer.
[00:31:44] Amy Kurtz: [00:31:45] And there is hope. It's just really, if anyone's struggling with Lyme or feels [00:31:50] that they may have Lyme, seeing a Lyme-literate doctor is essential.
[00:31:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:31:55] And you found success treating each c- like stair stepping the treatment of each [00:32:00] co-infection rather than trying to treat everything at, at one time.
[00:32:02] Amy Kurtz: Yeah.
[00:32:03] Amy Kurtz: Correct? I also, [00:32:05] I found the relationship with this doctor very- Important? ... im- s- [00:32:10] so crucial. Yeah. Because he empowered me. Yeah. You know, he said, "I'm gonna give [00:32:15] you the answer. I'm gonna give you the treatment, but ultimately the pacing is [00:32:20] totally up to you." Mm. And I almost was like, wait, what? Like, up to me? I get to choose?
[00:32:24] Amy Kurtz: [00:32:25] I get to choose. Yeah. I get to decide- Right ... how I, I'm gonna do this? And it felt uncomfortable. [00:32:30] Like I say in my new book, I almost felt like a kid in rain boots being like- Yeah ... "Wait, I can splash?" Yeah. [00:32:35] Because I wasn't used to that. Right. I was just used to always doing what somebody- [00:32:40] Told you to do ... told me to do- Right
[00:32:41] Amy Kurtz: because they were the expert. And that was [00:32:45] so crucial to my full, full, whole healing-
[00:32:47] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:32:48] Amy Kurtz: is that I [00:32:50] had to step into it.
[00:32:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:32:51] Amy Kurtz: And he pretty much demanded I met him in the middle- Mm ... [00:32:55] without saying that. And just doing that gave me so much [00:33:00] agency over my health in a way that I had lost over the years that I [00:33:05] was struggling.
[00:33:06] Amy Kurtz: And I really truly believe that that's like essential to
[00:33:09] Dr. Taz: [00:33:10] full healing. It's so funny because, you know, we're living in, in a time [00:33:15] where, you know, people are like, "Oh, we're not gonna need doctors. We have AI, and we have [00:33:20] technology, and we have this, and we have that, and you can go get your labs, and you can interpret them yourself.
[00:33:23] Dr. Taz: You can upload them here." [00:33:25] There is no healing without a doctor-patient [00:33:30] relationship. No. There's simply not. You can take stuff. You know, you can do a [00:33:35] algorithm or a protocol, but to truly be on a healing journey, it, it's this [00:33:40] energy exchange that needs to happen between two people that are [00:33:45] sort of mirrors in a way.
[00:33:46] Dr. Taz: Like- 100% ... here's what, here are some answers. [00:33:50] How do you feel? And then you guys take that and you re-input [00:33:55] us. Like, I've evolved because of you, because of all my patients, right? That's why I've evolved [00:34:00] into whoever I am today because it's this- Mm ... constant, like, exchange of [00:34:05] energy and learning and kind of honoring every person's individual- [00:34:10] individuality.
[00:34:10] Dr. Taz: But more importantly, you know, not to be too weird about it, but to be [00:34:15] like, you know. You, you know the answers internally, right? [00:34:20] Yeah, it's making me cry. I'm- It's gonna make me cry. But, like, I think that's the goal. It's [00:34:25] like to get each person in that construct to where they know, [00:34:30] and then trusting that intuitive knowledge, right?
[00:34:33] Dr. Taz: And technology will never, [00:34:35] ever be able to replace that. But it's also- It'll make us efficient. Yeah. It'll find [00:34:40] answers faster. Trust me, I like my ChatGPTs and Clads and all those things, but it won't [00:34:45] replace what happens in the exam room, you know? No,
[00:34:46] Amy Kurtz: especially if you have a doctor like yourself. Like, I can tell [00:34:50] this just from talking to you so briefly that, um, [00:34:55] you trust your patients.
[00:34:56] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And that is so healing because [00:35:00] the traditional Western medicine system, the [00:35:05] system for patients with complex, invisible chronic disease, not just one [00:35:10] thing, often feel so disempowered. Mm. And to have somebody say to you, [00:35:15] "What do you think it is?" Or, "How do you think we should do this?" Or, "What do you...
[00:35:19] Amy Kurtz: What's your [00:35:20] instinct about what's going on?" Or, "Does this feel right to you?" Just those questions is, [00:35:25] like, throwing a patient a lifeline. Mm. It's, it is empowering [00:35:30] them, and it's also trusting their ability to know themselves, which is [00:35:35] what got them there in the first place. Yeah.
[00:35:37] Dr. Taz: I mean, you had a long journey.
[00:35:38] Dr. Taz: You had 20 years. [00:35:40] Mm-hmm. That's a long time. How did that impact your life? Like, the basics of life, what career you [00:35:45] chose, relationships, all these other things. Oh,
[00:35:47] Amy Kurtz: so significantly. I mean, so significantly in [00:35:50] every way. My whole life changed. It felt like a rug was ripped out from under me when I was [00:35:55] 25.
[00:35:55] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. And when I was young, from age five, I looked at my mom and said, "I [00:36:00] am going to be an actor." And she's like, "Okay." Mm-hmm. And I said, "That's it." Yeah. And there was no [00:36:05] other path. I went to college for it. I started acting professionally. And then [00:36:10] boom. This happens. And I was a patient. I became a [00:36:15] patient.
[00:36:15] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And it's funny because I look back at my [00:36:20] life before. I used to always see my life as, like- [00:36:25] Before illness and after. And I sort of [00:36:30] was like, "Oh, I'll just do this and then get back to where I was. I'm just gonna get through this [00:36:35] and go back, and I'm gonna be an actor and I'm gonna do this, and everything's gonna be the way it was."
[00:36:39] Amy Kurtz: [00:36:40] And then once I was finally better, nothing was where it was. Mm. Everything had changed. [00:36:45] Everything. The cruise ship was gone. Yeah. Like, there's soci- societal expectation, which I [00:36:50] talk about a lot in my new book, which is you're sick or you're well, and if you're well, get back on the horse, [00:36:55] but the horse isn't there anymore.
[00:36:56] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. I mean, literally everything has changed. [00:37:00] And so it affected my life so profoundly, but if I didn't [00:37:05] go through what I went through, I wouldn't have started writing. Right. If I wasn't an actor, it wouldn't have [00:37:10] made me want another creative outlet.
[00:37:12] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:37:13] Amy Kurtz: And writing books has been [00:37:15] so profoundly rewarding for me, and it's been another [00:37:20] outlet, different than what I had imagined, but there's also a [00:37:25] lot of grief that goes into- Yeah
[00:37:27] Amy Kurtz: the loss of the life you thought that you would live. Mm. [00:37:30] And I used to say I felt like my life [00:37:35] had two halves. Like, it was before and after, and they were separate. [00:37:40] But then I realized they're all your life. Right. They're just different than you thought. It's [00:37:45] all your life, it's just different than I thought it would've been.
[00:37:49] Dr. Taz: How does, [00:37:50] how does somebody navigate that? 'Cause there is a lot of grief that people [00:37:55] experience when they're put in a situation physically, [00:38:00] mentally, emotionally that they didn't really think they were going to be in or didn't [00:38:05] anticipate that they were gonna be in. You know, how did you see your way out of that?[00:38:10]
[00:38:11] Amy Kurtz: Well, there's a long answer and a short answer. The [00:38:15] short answer is I- I think it's [00:38:20] impossible to pave through pain, and I think if you try, it just shows up later. [00:38:25] Mm. And because illness puts you in [00:38:30] survival mode, like you're literally in fight or flight, and I was in it for so long [00:38:35] that I didn't realize how much I was shelving [00:38:40] to the side for later.
[00:38:42] Amy Kurtz: You know, I had been like, [00:38:45] I... Okay, this was bad behavior. I don't like how this person spoke to me. [00:38:50] I'll put it on the side and deal with it later. Or, um, this felt really [00:38:55] bad the way that this test went and whatever. I'll put it on for later. Or a loved one [00:39:00] said to me like, "I don't get it. They didn't catch that."
[00:39:02] Amy Kurtz: Later, later, later, later. And I [00:39:05] found myself just putting things to the side, and it wasn't until after [00:39:10] I was actually better that everything else came up for the taking- Mm ... [00:39:15] because there was space. And energy. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:39:19] Dr. Taz: [00:39:20] Relationships, did it affect relationships you had as a young woman in your 20s
[00:39:24] Amy Kurtz: and 30s?
[00:39:24] Amy Kurtz: 100%. Mm. I, [00:39:25] I had so many of m- people who I thought were my friends fade away. [00:39:30] Mm. It was so sad, and also a blessing [00:39:35] looking back because you really... When things like this happen, it's like a crucible. [00:39:40] You really learn who your people are because getting sick doesn't just affect you, it affects [00:39:45] everyone that loves you.
[00:39:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:46] Amy Kurtz: And there's an opportunity to have a real deepening of [00:39:50] relationships, but not everybody's up for that. Right.
[00:39:53] Dr. Taz: And a lot of people don't wanna deal [00:39:55] with that. Yeah.
[00:39:55] Amy Kurtz: And I also met my husband while I was struggling- Oh, you did ... and we have a beautiful [00:40:00] relationship- Ah ... and we, we met each other during hard times in both of our [00:40:05] lives- Yeah
[00:40:05] Amy Kurtz: and I really believe we were put together [00:40:10] to help each other through really hard things that most young people don't have to [00:40:15] deal with. Don't have to do. Yep. And, um, and then the friends that stayed, [00:40:20] I have such a deep friendship with that we never had that [00:40:25] before.
[00:40:25] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:25] Amy Kurtz: But that's another thing I'm curious w- if you see this in your practice, like [00:40:30] nobody knows how to talk to somebody- That's such a good point
[00:40:33] Amy Kurtz: who's struggling. Yeah. Especially when [00:40:35] they're young- Yeah ... and especially when it's invisible. Mm-hmm. I almost felt like there was this [00:40:40] space between me and every person I loved, even the people I had the most [00:40:45] intimate relationships with, because nobody knew what to say. And
[00:40:47] Dr. Taz: probably, like, it's the eggshell thing.
[00:40:49] Dr. Taz: Like, can we [00:40:50] say something? Can we not say something? Mm-hmm. Are you okay? Are you not okay? Do I bring it up? Am I gonna make you [00:40:55] cry? Like, this probably, I'm guessing, what's happening to the people around [00:41:00] you, you know?
[00:41:01] Amy Kurtz: Yes, and I also think in some respect [00:41:05] there's a lot of, "I don't see it."
[00:41:09] Dr. Taz: [00:41:10] They don't believe you.
[00:41:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:41:11] Amy Kurtz: Oh. And I think a lot of patients feel that way, especially young women, [00:41:15] when they're being told, "You look great."
[00:41:17] Dr. Taz: You're fine.
[00:41:18] Amy Kurtz: You look fine. Or [00:41:20] like, "Any better?" You know, there's, there's a silent messaging. Mm. [00:41:25] And then there's the people closest to me that I know meant well, but [00:41:30] nobody talks about how to be there for someone.
[00:41:33] Amy Kurtz: And really what a patient needs is [00:41:35] for you to ask them, "How can I be there for you? How can I support you? What do you need from [00:41:40] me? I'm so sorry you're suffering. Is there anything I can do to show up for you [00:41:45] better?"
[00:41:45] Dr. Taz: So those are the que- like, if you have a friend or a loved one going [00:41:50] through a chronic illness of any kind, that's more of the approach.
[00:41:54] Amy Kurtz: [00:41:55] Yeah. Or, "I know that things have changed. Our dynamic has shifted because of what's going on with [00:42:00] you. What is a way we can stay connected that feels good to you?" Ooh, that's a good one.
[00:42:04] Dr. Taz: I love that one. I like that. [00:42:05] That's a really good one. Yeah. So you heal, you get better, but you talk about [00:42:10] something called medical trauma brain.
[00:42:13] Dr. Taz: Which I'm surprised you even showed up for this [00:42:15] interview today 'cause I am a physician. But anyhow, uh, what is medical trauma [00:42:20] brain?
[00:42:21] Amy Kurtz: Okay. So I laugh when I hear it because it [00:42:25] just, it's so, sort of so obvious, and that's why I named it that. Yeah. [00:42:30] But I found myself so much physically better. [00:42:35] Like I said, I felt like I had a new body, but I started to feel bad in a [00:42:40] way that I didn't- didn't understand what was [00:42:45] happening to me.
[00:42:45] Amy Kurtz: I didn't even actually realize it was happening to me. I just knew that [00:42:50] physically I felt like I had a new body, and mentally and emotionally I was trapped in a [00:42:55] hell- Mm ... that I couldn't explain. I was so anxious, I was so [00:43:00] hypervigilant. Like all the time? Mm-hmm. Ugh. I was so afraid that [00:43:05] everything was gonna come back exactly as it was.
[00:43:07] Amy Kurtz: I was obsessive if [00:43:10] I had the onset of anything that could've been a flare-up. And I'm [00:43:15] not somebody that hasn't worked on myself emotionally. Right. I had been in therapy for most of the [00:43:20] time I had been sick, but nobody had ever said, "This might be [00:43:25] traumatic." Mm-hmm. And it wasn't until I went on the worst date ever with my husband [00:43:30] Were you married at the time?
[00:43:31] Amy Kurtz: Uh-huh. Okay. When he said to me, "I have to say something to you, and [00:43:35] it might sound a little provocative." And I was like, "Oh my God, really, [00:43:40] dude?" Here we go. But I do love him- Yeah ... because he tells it to me like it is. Yeah. And he said, "I think there's [00:43:45] another phase of this going on for you. I think what you've been through is really traumatic," and [00:43:50] I always knew there was gonna be another shoe that would drop.
[00:43:53] Amy Kurtz: Mm. And I'm like, "A [00:43:55] shoe? What is, what is he even saying?" And like, how is this dude who's not a medical [00:44:00] professional saying to me- Know this, yeah ... that I am [00:44:05] going through something else that's never been said to me, that's never even been a [00:44:10] consideration? Because once you're well, you're well. Right.
[00:44:13] Dr. Taz: Right?
[00:44:13] Amy Kurtz: Right. But I wasn't [00:44:15] well. And I was suffering in a new way that there was no language for.
[00:44:19] Dr. Taz: [00:44:20] Mm.
[00:44:20] Amy Kurtz: And so I got help. I went to see a [00:44:25] CBT therapist, and then started learning about trauma, and I started to [00:44:30] realize, oh, this is a version of traumatic stress. Mm. You know, there's post-traumatic [00:44:35] stress disorder. Yes.
[00:44:35] Amy Kurtz: That didn't fit, because that's when one single event happens that's [00:44:40] traumatic. Complex post-traumatic stress disorder is when the event happens over and over [00:44:45] again, but even still, this is different. This is when the threat is your body, [00:44:50] and it's constantly betraying you.
[00:44:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:52] Amy Kurtz: And you've lost trust in it.[00:44:55]
[00:44:55] Amy Kurtz: So what happened to me was that I was physically better, but my mind was still on the [00:45:00] survival hamster wheel, and it hadn't gotten the memo. And so for me it was like an illness after [00:45:05] an illness. 'Cause you'd been in fight or flight for 20-something years. Mm-hmm. But I think [00:45:10] that, you know, the 194 million Americans struggling with chronic disease, this doesn't [00:45:15] just apply to them.
[00:45:15] Amy Kurtz: It applies to cancer patients- Yeah ... to patients who have had acute illnesses [00:45:20] like strokes, like horrible accidents and chronic pain. You [00:45:25] are in survival. Mm. And unless you work to get out of survival, you will [00:45:30] always be stuck in what I call the shadowlands, which for me- [00:45:35] It was like I was out to dinner with my friends.
[00:45:38] Amy Kurtz: I was there, I was laughing, [00:45:40] I was having a good time, and yet there was a part of me- Just
[00:45:43] Dr. Taz: like there. Yeah ...
[00:45:43] Amy Kurtz: where my brain was, like, [00:45:45] trapped in a sandstorm desert all alone.
[00:45:47] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:48] Amy Kurtz: And I felt so [00:45:50] isolated. And looking back at it, I can see I was [00:45:55] so anxious. Yeah. Like, I was really, really struggling because I was [00:46:00] terrified that I was gonna get sick again.
[00:46:03] Dr. Taz: How did you get yourself out of [00:46:05] that? You know, and this is an aspect of illness and a journey that we don't talk about very much- No ... [00:46:10] at all. You know, it's always like, "Okay, you're better." You know, like, okay- Back on the horse ... we're back, we're back on the horse. [00:46:15] Yay, you know. But there is the fallout- Yeah
[00:46:18] Dr. Taz: right? [00:46:20] And, you know, how does one go about resetting that?
[00:46:23] Amy Kurtz: I worked a [00:46:25] lot on, um, m- nervous system regulation because I have a [00:46:30] very activated nervous system from everything that I've been through. Mm. I worked with a [00:46:35] CBT therapist. I studied s- immensely with trauma [00:46:40] books and understanding that your body can actually be rewired after [00:46:45] something severely stressful, and that then I started to think, oh, then I [00:46:50] think that most patients who suffer in this way, who are constantly hyper-alert and [00:46:55] feel as though their body is turning on them, need this reprogramming.
[00:46:59] Amy Kurtz: You know, we live [00:47:00] in a country that doesn't reward recovery- Right ... in any way. [00:47:05] Right. It's like achieve, go, do. And also these- Crash ... binaries. Yeah. Sick and [00:47:10] well. Yeah. No space in between. So this was something that I thought, [00:47:15] "If I'm suffering with this, then I know millions of people are, too." [00:47:20] And I started to interview thousands of patients.
[00:47:24] Amy Kurtz: And when I [00:47:25] said it, it was like a light bulb went off. Mm. And they were like, "Oh, my [00:47:30] God, this is exactly how I feel," and it feels like a ghost-
[00:47:34] Dr. Taz: [00:47:35] Mm ...
[00:47:35] Amy Kurtz: that doesn't leave you. A medical ghost. Yeah. And then I started to interview [00:47:40] world-renowned trauma experts like Dr. Gabor Mate and- Mm-hmm ... Peter Levine. Yeah. And I said, "It [00:47:45] feels like the stress is like wildfire."
[00:47:47] Amy Kurtz: And they both said that's how trauma can feel [00:47:50] when it feels out of control, when your stress response gets out of control, not, [00:47:55] not that, but, um... And so I said, "Well, I'm gonna name it, [00:48:00] and then I'm gonna give a toolbox." But what was the most important part to me as a health coach [00:48:05] who's worked with doctors is that I want patients to [00:48:10] understand that ultimately every choice they make is up to them.
[00:48:14] Amy Kurtz: [00:48:15] And the reason that I know that people can get through this aftermath or the [00:48:20] illness after the illness is because they were strong enough to get through the illness. The illness, [00:48:25] right. So if they can do that, they can do anything. And- [00:48:30] It's so detrimental to say that the physical body is [00:48:35] separate from the mental- Thank you
[00:48:36] Amy Kurtz: emotional, spiritual self. They are one. And in [00:48:40] this country, we look at them as separate, and they're not. They, there's literally [00:48:45] no way to separate them. So I felt that I [00:48:50] went through an extreme version of this, but I know from how many people I've [00:48:55] interviewed that this is a real thing. Even I, I interviewed many, many physicians.
[00:48:59] Amy Kurtz: Mm-hmm. The [00:49:00] people that I'm closest to as well. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Have you seen this where the [00:49:05] patient is better but they're not better? Or it's like they're better, but they're still [00:49:10] acting as if they're sick?" And when I would say it, there was a real [00:49:15] recognition of, "Oh, yeah, I see. I do. I see that all the time," or, "I just thought it takes [00:49:20] time," or Yeah, I just-- And then, then I'd say, "What's the name of it?"[00:49:25]
[00:49:25] Amy Kurtz: And nobody knew. So I created it. So you're calling it [00:49:30] Medical
[00:49:30] Dr. Taz: Trauma Brain.
[00:49:30] Amy Kurtz: Or
[00:49:30] Dr. Taz: MTB. MTB. What are some of the steps, if someone listening [00:49:35] right now is like, "Oh my gosh, that's me. That's the space I'm in right now, and I didn't know [00:49:40] it had a name." Where would you tell them to start in terms of rewiring or [00:49:45] reprogramming or calming that nervous system down?
[00:49:48] Amy Kurtz: Well, my new book, But You Look [00:49:50] Fine, the first part- Great ... yeah. Mm-hmm. The first part is showing you that [00:49:55] you might have it, too, and the second part is everything you can do about it. Okay. So to [00:50:00] really empower them because it's essential that they step [00:50:05] into this part of their healing as well because nobody cares more about them than they do.
[00:50:09] Amy Kurtz: Right. That's [00:50:10] the truth. Right. Like, you're up to you. Right. And, um, I create a [00:50:15] whole pro- a whole program, but the first thing is to start to [00:50:20] notice, okay, I'm having a big reaction to something, [00:50:25] and have... create tools to understand what's [00:50:30] happening to you. Dr. Lindsay Tulchin is a CBT therapist, and she talks about the SUD scale, [00:50:35] which is being able to identify the spike in your stress and how, how [00:50:40] distressing it feels to you, and then to create [00:50:45] space so that you can take a little time away to say, "Is this really [00:50:50] dangerous?
[00:50:50] Amy Kurtz: Will this be upsetting in two hours, two weeks, [00:50:55] or two months?" And then another tip that I love, that I [00:51:00] use all the time, is orienting, which is just feel-- getting into a [00:51:05] grounded space no matter what kind of worry you have going on and saying, "What is one thing [00:51:10] I see? What is one thing I hear? What is one thing I taste, and what is one thing I smell?"
[00:51:14] Dr. Taz: [00:51:15] Mm.
[00:51:15] Amy Kurtz: Just to really ground you into the moment. Um, I t- like to [00:51:20] take an hour. I say, like, "Stop, drop, and roll." I'll-- will put my phone away. I will get out of- Stop, drop, [00:51:25] and roll ... whatever situation I'm in. Oh, I like that. And I'll go for a walk, and if I can take a full sleep, [00:51:30] I will. Like, a sleep makes everything better.
[00:51:32] Amy Kurtz: Yeah. And then once [00:51:35] you have calmed down, you can start to say to yourself- Is this an [00:51:40] emergency? Is this actually life-threatening? Is this [00:51:45] going to be dangerous tomorrow? And to start to, like, kind of [00:51:50] talk back to yourself and have a reality check. And then, um, Peter [00:51:55] Levine shares some really beautiful exercises in the book that people can use at any [00:52:00] time to help to regulate their nervous system.
[00:52:03] Amy Kurtz: It's also that it can't [00:52:05] be go big or go home. Right. It has to be one small step at a time. And there are many [00:52:10] things that work for me that might not work for other people. I love to do breathwork. Yeah. [00:52:15] I love to, to meditate and to exercise because there's [00:52:20] actually science that proves that some exercise at high intensity can be more [00:52:25] effective than a Z- than a Xanax- Wow.
[00:52:27] Amy Kurtz: Yeah ... that I found. Yeah. Um, [00:52:30] and also 70% of women have experienced medical gaslighting. Mm-hmm. So the truth is [00:52:35] this- I view this as an opportunity. If people are feeling the way that I felt, [00:52:40] that's, that's bottom.
[00:52:41] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:52:42] Amy Kurtz: And it's the loneliest, most [00:52:45] isolating place to be. And so it's only up from there. From [00:52:50] there.
[00:52:50] Amy Kurtz: And the, the best part is that they get to reclaim the trust within themselves [00:52:55] that they had lost, and that is the most empowering, [00:53:00] amazing feeling when you get to know yourself and you say, "Okay. I know that [00:53:05] everything inside of me is sounding the alarm, but I can [00:53:10] handle it." Yeah. I name the stress response that I used to have Super Freak [00:53:15] because- Super Freak
[00:53:16] Amy Kurtz: she- You have
[00:53:16] Dr. Taz: good names for everything. I love it. She, like,
[00:53:18] Amy Kurtz: flies into the [00:53:20] scene with- Yeah ... glasses on sideways, cape messed up- Yeah. Yeah ... hair going crazy. Yeah. [00:53:25] And now I'm like, "I see you. I'm good. I got it." That's what you say. You [00:53:30] know? But before, I was Super Freak. Right. I became her. Yeah. So, [00:53:35] um, I really think that there just needs to be a part [00:53:40] of medicine in general that focuses on recovery and, [00:53:45] um, and the aftermath of
[00:53:47] Dr. Taz: illness.
[00:53:48] Dr. Taz: Of what happens. That's so [00:53:50] important. Well, your latest book, tell us a little bit about it, what you're hoping people
[00:53:53] Amy Kurtz: will walk away [00:53:55] with. It's called But You Look Fine: Trapped in the Hell Between Sick and Well and How to [00:54:00] Break Free. Wow. And it's my story, but it's also naming [00:54:05] this phenomenon for the first time, showing people that they're not alone, and giving [00:54:10] them so many tools for how to get themselves out of it.
[00:54:14] Amy Kurtz: My [00:54:15] hope is that it changes the narrative on what whole [00:54:20] healing really means- Hmm ... because- There's nothing worse [00:54:25] than feeling like you're through a storm and yet your mind is still in it, and it literally [00:54:30] feels like you're separated from yourself or you're just not really there. And [00:54:35] I do believe that healing from any kind of chronic or acute illness can [00:54:40] be so transformative, um, if you make it that
[00:54:44] Dr. Taz: way.[00:54:45]
[00:54:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah, a lot of sickness and healing is about trying to get us to that next [00:54:50] spiritual level, right? Or that next whatever it is, that next frontier. [00:54:55] And I, like you, don't believe that healing is just physical. That is the mission of Hol+。 [00:55:00] That's what we do- I know ... practically and, you know, kinda theoretically as well.
[00:55:04] Dr. Taz: But [00:55:05] really believing it's if you have a hit at the physical body, you're also getting a hit [00:55:10] mentally, emotionally, energetically, and usually within your community, whatever that community looks [00:55:15] like, right? Yeah. And those things work like an accordion and influence one another for sure. [00:55:20] So it's very shortsighted, I would say this to anybody listening today or watching, that it's very [00:55:25] shortsighted to think, "Okay, I cured my illness," or, "I'm through this physical [00:55:30] component of my journey and it's done."
[00:55:32] Dr. Taz: Like, you know, wash your hands and you're done. [00:55:35] There's a huge additional piece to it that never gets talked about, so [00:55:40] I'm so glad that you are putting it to paper and getting it out there- Thank you ... and really [00:55:45] helping people that might be in this place, whether at, they're at the beginning, middle, or end, or [00:55:50] after a chronic health journey, which is unfortunately becoming so much, so much more [00:55:55] common.
[00:55:55] Dr. Taz: So thank you for, for sharing your wisdom and your experience- Thank you so much ... and your journey with us. Thank you [00:56:00] for having me. It's been, it's been incredible. I
[00:56:01] Amy Kurtz: love talking to you.
[00:56:02] Dr. Taz: Talk to us about where [00:56:05] people can find you, find the book, and then I want you to answer my final [00:56:10] question, I think my final question, which is what makes you Hol?[00:56:15]
[00:56:15] Amy Kurtz: Love this question. Do you?[00:56:20]
[00:56:20] Amy Kurtz: What makes me feel hol is that the [00:56:25] physical, emotional, spiritual, [00:56:30] mental self are all one. That's what whole healing is [00:56:35] to me. Speaking
[00:56:35] Dr. Taz: my
[00:56:35] Amy Kurtz: language. I love it. All right. Where can people find you and find the book? [00:56:40] But You Look Fine will be anywhere books are sold June 9th. June 9th. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. [00:56:45] And, um, you can find me on amykurtz.com or on Instagram [00:56:50] _amykurtz.
[00:56:50] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you again. So proud of you. Thank you. That- Oh, thank you. That means a lot ... that is a journey, [00:56:55] 20-something years. I can't imagine. Mine was way shorter, and it almost took [00:57:00] me out, so I can't imagine what you've been through. So thank you again. Thank you. And for everybody else [00:57:05] watching and listening, again, you know, so many people today are suffering from chronic diseases.
[00:57:09] Dr. Taz: [00:57:10] They live in the gray zone. If you think they would benefit from hearing Amy's story, please share it with [00:57:15] them. I think we heal in community. We heal when we hear others have been able to make it [00:57:20] to the other side. So share this particular episode with them, and remember, we go deep on [00:57:25] all things nervous system recovery, Lyme disease, and more in my private community, which is the [00:57:30] Circle.
[00:57:30] Dr. Taz: Head over, if you would like to join, to holplus.co/circle. I'll see you [00:57:35] guys next time. Before you go, take a second to reflect on what stood out for you [00:57:40] today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're listening. It [00:57:45] really helps other people discover Hol Plus and start their own healing journey.
[00:57:49] Dr. Taz: And [00:57:50] don't forget to follow me on Instagram, @drtazmd. I love hearing how these [00:57:55] episodes are supporting you.