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Caroline Blaze Jensen, a former Thunderbird pilot and accomplished fighter pilot, shares her incredible journey through aviation, including her experiences flying combat missions and performing in air shows. She emphasizes the importance of determination and resilience, highlighting that success often comes from overcoming failures and learning from them. Caroline discusses the unique pressures of being a military pilot, transitioning from combat to the Thunderbirds, and the significance of teamwork in high-stakes environments. She also reflects on her role as a mentor and inspiration for the next generation of pilots, especially women in aviation. With insights into her personal experiences and future aspirations, Caroline illustrates the profound impact of pursuing one’s dreams while navigating the challenges of a demanding career.
Takeaways:
Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.
Episode 327 of the pilot to
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I'm Caroline Blaze Jensen.
I'm a retired United states
Air Force lieutenant colonel.
I flew the F16 and T38 over
3500 hours in Iraq and with the Thunderbirds
and I'm currently a speaker,
author and looking to get back into
the aviation community.
AV Nation, what is going on?
And welcome back to the Pilot
to Pilot podcast.
My name is Justin Seems and I
am your host.
Today's episode is with a
former Thunderbird pilot and it's
always fun to talk to these pilots.
I feel like they're just built
different and the things they do
are so cool.
We have Caroline Blaze Jensen
coming on and her story is just awesome.
Shout out to Pivot.
They are the ones that kind of
introduced me to her and got this
to happen.
So if you don't rock Pivot you.
Should go do it.
I mean I don't have one, maybe
I should buy one too before saying
that.
But anyways, Blaze comes on
and talks about her story, talks
about why she wanted to be a
pilot and how she became a pilot
and it's a very, very awesome story.
So I'm really excited for her
to come on, share her story and share.
A little about herself.
So AV Nation, I hope you
enjoyed today's podcast and if you
do check out the podcast
Spotify or itunes.
Sure you leave a five star
review if you haven't trying to get
to a thousand reviews on each platform.
I think we're pretty close.
I think Spotify we're at like
9:20 and Apple podcast closer to
9.
So thank you so much for
leaving reviews and as I said before,
you know Grab your dad's phone.
Just leave a five star review
and make sure you download the podcast.
Maybe he'll want to be a pilot.
And go fly with you.
You never know.
Could be cool.
But AV Nation, I hope you're
having a great day.
And without any further ado,
here's Caroline Blaze.
Jensen Blaze.
What's going on?
Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.
Hi, Justin.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm excited to have you
on you, I think the third Thunderbird
I've ever talked to.
Dozen and Mace.
I don't know if you know who
those two are.
I do, actually.
I was one of Dozen's
instructor pilots.
No way.
So this is.
This is just gonna be.
Tell all about Dozen and it's
either gonna be good or bad for him.
You can make or break his
career, you know.
Here we go.
Maybe a thousand students.
So I remember him.
Maybe I do remember he.
He had me fly Fingertip with
him after he graduated.
And I was about to go to the Thunderbirds.
I'm pretty sure it was him.
They're like, let's go out and
just fly.
Fingertip was like this.
And I didn't like flying
fingertip until I became a right
wing pilot.
What?
So I don't fly anything fun.
What does fly finger tip mean?
Um, so in the Thunderbirds, we
say as close as 18 inches to other
aircraft.
So I was the right wing
looking out at the flight lead, looking
for different site references
to stay in that formation as we,
you know, do a 45 minute show.
That's crazy.
And all the different maneuvers.
So we're not always 18 inches.
That's kind of just for.
For part of it, but it.
It was pretty fun.
Cool.
Well, we can get more into
that later.
But the.
The one thing I'm more
interested in right now is just the
why the.
The why behind you becoming a pilot.
You want to get an aviation.
Just kind of start from the beginning.
Okay.
Um, I think I was bit by the
flying bug really early, but it was
about six years old and I just
saw a movie and it had a Stearman
biplane, I think, flying
around in the clouds.
Cause I was sick.
So I just.
It was like an open cockpit
biplane flying around in clouds.
And I was like super enamored
with that.
And my dad actually flew helicopters.
He's a world.
Or.
Sorry, not World War II veteran.
My grandfather's a World War
II veteran.
My father flew H34s in Vietnam
with the Marine Corps, and he worked
up in the Minnesota Air
National Guard.
We get to Go to the airfield
with him sometimes and see, you know,
airplanes in the air and pair
of jumpers jumping out of the back
of C130s and dropping supplies
and stuff.
So I always wanted to do that.
And I saw Top Gun like a lot
of people of my generation, but I
didn't want to be Charlie.
I wanted to be Maverick, you
know, so, so I went to an air show
in La Crosse, Wisconsin, and I
saw the Thunderbirds fly.
And, you know, going to air
shows, it's like kind of this patriotic
feeling wells up with you.
And then like you have the
physical sensation of those engines
going by like so close to you.
You can like, you know, feel it.
And I just, I was really
excited about it.
I looked up the United States
Air Force Academy, learned everything
I could about that, and had to
work my tail off every day to get
into there and then to survive it.
When I got on my flight to go
to the Air Force Academy, it was
the only, the fourth time I'd
ever been airborne in an airplane.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
So hope you like it.
Yeah, well, I did, you know, I
had one ride in a 1:72 for my 15th
birthday, kind of like a, you
know, familiarization flight.
And I had taken one trip to
Colorado Springs to go to swim camp
when I was at the academy when
I was in high school.
And I paid for that with all
my own money.
Um, so they had a glider
program there and I flew Schweitzer
two 33s.
Luckily I was good enough that
I got selected to be a instructor.
And that's where I really
learned how to fly.
Awesome.
Yeah, that's a good place to
fly gliders.
Yeah, well, you know, it was,
I got about 120 hours and it was
like 15, 20 minutes at a time
because we didn't thermal.
We would have tow planes tow
us up, we'd release.
We do aggravated stalls and,
you know, steep turns and manage
energy.
Make sure that you got back to
the entry points.
You could fly the traffic
pattern and land depending on the
winds and.
But it was great because I was
teaching other kids, you know, 20
year olds kids how to fly.
Was there ever a time when
you're up there flying the glider
and you're like, we need a
thermal bat or else we're going to
be landing somewhere we don't
want to land.
I luckily didn't have to do
this, but there were like emergency
off field landings.
So there's a football stadium
kind of right underneath one side,
like, and that was kind of the
further way I guess to get back to
the pattern so you could land
in the football stadium.
I think one of my classmates
had to land there.
And you know, in parking lots
they have like signs posted for rows
and stuff.
Sometimes I think they ended
up hitting one of the posts.
Not too bad.
Everybody was okay.
You know, you're like, your
airspeed's pretty low.
Yeah.
And those things.
But yeah, there were, you
know, off field landing procedures.
And we would do it
intentionally at the end of the day
to put the aircraft back in
the hangar.
Now they have a beautiful
hangar right off the side of the
Runway.
But we'd land in this like
rocky field and you, it felt like
you got punched in the nose by
the time you like bounced to a stop
because it was, it was not a
very even field.
So.
So you make the most junior
person do that so you don't have
to get punched in the nose
anymore, right?
Yeah, no.
Well, we were with our
students and allowed you to just
take it.
You'd slip your face off to
get down, you know, really quick,
make sure you had the energy.
And then was kind of a short
landing space.
But it, I mean, it was really fun.
Yeah, it was really fun.
Going back a little bit to
kind of, you know, you mentioned
you watch Top Gun.
It's crazy just how many
people can reference one movie for
wanting or for getting them to
want to either get into the military
or into aviation.
I hope Tom Cruise got some
kickback or still gets kickback from
all, all the enlisted people
that they got in there.
So if anyone knows if he's
making any money, not like he needs
any money, but he has to have
something from that.
The military, hey, let's make
a third one, you know, we need more
people.
Come on.
Yeah, well, in the Air Force
we got Iron Eagle and you know, it's
like, wa.
Wa.
It's a great movie, but not
the Top Gun.
But, you know, it's funny,
when I traveled on the Thunderbirds
and I was the only woman pilot
on the team at the time.
I was the only woman officer
on the team my last two years.
So I'd get asked the question
all the time, like, how do we recruit
more women?
And I said, you need to make
Top Gun again, but put a woman in
it.
So I was really excited that
they had a character.
He was just a competent pilot.
She was nobody's love interest.
She just was herself and a
pilot like everyone else.
And they didn't really play up
the gender differences.
So I, I appreciate that.
So thank you, Tom Cruise.
That's exactly what he was
planning on doing too.
Or maybe make an Iron Eagle
too, huh?
Get a female lead Iron Eagle, too.
Improve it a little bit.
I don't think I've ever seen
it, to be honest with you, so maybe
I should check it out.
But if you say it's not worth
it, maybe I'll skip it.
Well, let's do it right.
Right now.
Let's go.
So you.
You have this.
This dream.
You're six.
You know, you're looking up.
Most people in their six are.
Are playing with.
With bikes or with dolls or
with GI Joes, whatever it is.
Play.
D'oh.
I don't know.
But you're looking up at the
sky and be like, I want to fly an
airplane.
There's a lot of actionable
steps that take place.
You don't just become a pilot.
What did you do in between
that time?
I know you said you went to
the Air Force Academy.
You, you worked your butt off
to get in there, but kind of talk
about the in between time,
the, the 6 to 18 of what you did
to foster your love for aviation.
I literally only attended two
air shows.
I actually saw the Blue Angels
fly in Grand Forks when I was about
10 or 11.
And I don't remember it, but I
have a picture of me holding a Blue
Angels pennant.
So, you know, I read a lot.
I always loved the poem High
Flight by John Gillespie McGee Jr.
I actually have.
I had it framed and it was
hanging on my wall.
I would like cut out pictures
from magazines and got the Air Force
Academy brochure and kind of
like pull up my.
My pictures that were my
favorite and put them in my locker
in high school.
And so we didn't have a lot of
resources growing up.
My parents were school
teachers and, you know, finances
is a big barrier for entry
into the aviation community for a
lot of people.
So had it not been for the Air
Force Academy, I don't know that
my dream would have come true.
So a lot of it was just
staying healthy and things that I
needed to do to get into the
academy that also make you a great
pilot, like a leader and
assertive and aware of your surroundings.
And, you know, I did swim
team, track team, took a lot of math
that I, you know, they would
think pilots are these great STEM
people.
And especially as an F16
pilot, I.
I struggled pretty hard with it.
I actually majored in English
at the Air Force Academ Academy,
so.
But not shying away from that,
like taking that on full force and
going into those courses and
learning what I needed to learn,
even though it was a little
bit more difficult for me than the
average student.
So you wanted to be Air Force,
like, early age, like it was Air
Force and only Air Force, right?
I did.
I actually applied to all the
academies, though.
I got into Coast Guard Academy
right away, which is an amazing school.
And I think it actually is
more difficult to get into that than
the other academies.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And then I got nominations to
West Point and Annapolis, and I had
early or no, I got nomination
to West Point.
I got early acceptance to West
Point, Indianapolis, and I went to
my Air Force Academy
interview, and they called me and
they were like, well, where do
you want to go?
Because you don't have an
acceptance to Air Force, but you
do to Navy and West Point, and
we can only give you one nomination.
And I had to put all my, you
know, all in.
Put all my chips out on the
table and, like, I want to go to
the Air Force Academy.
And that's what happened.
So it was a big gamble, but it
paid off.
Yeah, well, one of my.
High school or not high
school, actually.
He was like childhood friends.
Ever since, I want to say,
like 4 years old, he always wanted.
He said, I want to go to the
Naval Academy and I want to be a
Navy pilot.
And he did it.
And so you're kind of in the
same boat there.
It's like you set out.
It's crazy to me that you can
be so young and be so all in on a
goal.
And one, when you're young,
you don't understand the work that
goes into that goal.
So there's a lot of adversity
that comes.
There's a lot of moments when
you're like, oh, man, I don't think
I can do it.
I'm not good enough.
And instead of hanging out
with your friends playing video games,
you know, you're either trying
to be an Eagle Scout, you're.
You're doing things to make
your resume look good for the military.
And it's really cool to see
someone have goals at that age and
actually do them, because a
lot of people say they want to do
stuff, and then it fizzles out.
You know, things happen,
roadblocks come, and some days you
just want to take the easier route.
And there's nothing wrong with
just what I did.
I went to Ohio State and just
flew on my own, you know.
But it's really cool to see
that you had this huge goal and you're
able to not only go after it,
but get accepted by every academy,
which is not normal.
That's really impressive.
Well, you know, I.
It sounds weird, and I talk
about this.
I'm a speaker professionally, too.
But you really hit on
something that I haven't kind of
acknowledged.
And I wasn't so worried about
my ability and my qualifications
to get in, even though I had
to work really hard to get up there
at that time.
I was more worried about them
accepting me.
And Top Gun came out in 1986.
They did not allow women into
fighter cockpits until 1993.
And I graduated high school in 1994.
Oh, dang.
So luckily, the door had just
opened when I got to the academy
and made everything possible.
And, you know, if I had a line
number for fighter pilots, women
fighter pilots, I'm probably
50, not more than 75 women at the
time that had done it.
I'm probably in, like, the top
50 or first 50 women in the US that
flew fighters.
That's crazy.
Yeah.
Was there anyone that you
specifically looked up to, like,
was a couple classes ahead of you?
Any, like, particular person
or set of people that you look up
to that kind of helped
trailblaze that path for you?
Yeah.
First off, like, right after I
saw Top Gun, I went to my Vietnam
veteran dad.
And, you know, he knew I
wanted to fly fighters, and he was
excited because he wanted me
to fly something higher and faster
in case I got shot at the way
he did in Vietnam.
So he, you know, approved.
But he definitely wanted me
out of the kind of environment that
he was in as a helicopter pilot.
But he told me about the World
War II women Air Force service pilots.
So in 1942-1944, there were a
little over 1100 women that flew
and ferried airplanes.
They did all the missions
except for combat and flew everything
in the inventory, and they
flew all the pursuit planes, P51s.
All that, you know, good
stuff, too.
So my dad said, you know, look
at this history.
And the rules changed and
they're going to change back at some
point.
So it's your job that if and
when they do that, you're there ready
to raise your hand and you're
ready to go.
So that gave me a lot of
motivation and inspiration.
And later on in my career in
life, I got to be friends with quite
a few wasps.
And it's just.
I'm getting goosebumps just
even thinking about how lucky I am
to have.
I have one good friend who's
103 and she's still alive.
Just spoke with her yesterday.
She's fantastic.
B25 was her favorite aircraft.
So that's really what kept me going.
And my freshman year at the
academy, now retired General Jeannie
Leavitt came to the Air Force
Academy with her squadron commander.
She was like a captain at the time.
And they had like a optional
meeting and elect an hour.
There may be like, 50 cadets
who went in there, but I just remember,
like, you know, sitting there and.
And looking at her and just
being in awe and, you know, just.
I wanted it so bad, and I just
wanted to be able to be accepted
into that community.
And oddly enough, Nicole
Malachowski, who a lot of people
know, the first woman
Thunderbird, when I got into the
glider squadron, she was the
squadron commander.
And they're also, like, in
that program, there were like, four
women out of, I don't know, 50
per class, or maybe two or three
women in each class that flew
the gliders.
So it wasn't a lot.
So Nicole, who later went on
to be a Thunderbird, she's been a
mentor and someone I looked up
to and a good friend for a long time.
As we'll get into more of kind
of the training and what that was
like.
But I want to touch on what
you think is important for someone
that has the same goal as you,
whether it's at age 4, 6, whatever
it may be, but wants to go
military, wants to specifically go
to the academy.
We kind of touched on a little
bit how it's.
It's a process.
Right.
Like, I mean, there's a lot of
boxes you need to check, and you
just have to hope that they
accept you, because there's a lot
of other people that can check
the same boxes, get the same letters,
get everything like that.
At the end of the day, it just
comes down to reading your paper
or who you know.
But what would you recommend
for someone that really wants this?
Let's say we can give it two steps.
You know, if.
If you're that young kid
that's 8 years old that watches Top
Gun with their dad or their
mom is like, I want to do that.
Like, all right.
And then also if you're say
like a little bit later, like 13,
middle school, ish.
Getting ready to go into high
school, what would you recommend?
I love those people and I.
I do a lot of free mentoring
and, you know, I always loved seeing
those kids on the flight line
when we landed.
And, you know, people want to
put you in a box.
Right, Right.
If you're going to be a
fighter pilot or a military pilot,
and it's generally not a, you
know, a young Woman who was, you
know, lived on a farm for the
first seven years of her life in
Wisconsin.
So, you know, don't let people
tell you, you know, oh, well, you
know, it's hard to get in
there because you need a nomination.
Like, I actually had people
say that my guidance counselor.
Like, they.
There was the asvab, which is
a military screening test.
And it's not mandatory if
you're going to go in and get commission.
But, like, they're like, oh,
you don't have to be here, because,
you know, we don't have enough seats.
And I'm like, but I want to go
in the military.
And, like, there's not that
many kids in my class.
Like, why would you excuse me from.
From doing this?
And.
Right.
So I just, like, weirdly had
no support.
I had a teacher, too, who
failed me on a paper that I wrote
about becoming a pilot someday.
And it literally.
The night I was writing out my
final draft, the news flash with
the first three women fighter
pilots from the Pentagon was, like,
on the T.
And I went in the next
morning, turned in that paper, and
it was like, little Ralphie
and the Red Rider BB gun.
So excited.
And she literally failed me on it.
And when I went in to talk to
her, she didn't really think women
should be in the military,
much less in combat or flying airplanes.
And she saw how much time and
research I took and how educated
I was on my decision.
And she gave me a D instead of
an F on the paper.
So.
So, you know, nice of her.
Yeah, give me the D, not the F.
It's like, thank you.
Yeah, yeah.
Geez.
You know, or people be like,
oh, you need to have a private pilot's
license.
And a lot of the young folks
that I talk to are, you know, heads
and shoulders above where I
was as far as, like, aviation experience
and, you know, early
graduation and 4.9 GPAs or whatever.
That's crazy how.
But don't let that intimidate
you, right?
So there's gonna be steps
along the way where people don't.
Don't think that it's.
It's the thing for you.
I'm also, like.
A lot of pilots are afraid of heights.
I don't like roller coasters.
I think it's like, me either.
Horrible way to die.
I'd rather be in control, you
know, like, so there's just these
misconceptions.
And today you have great
resources in the Internet to go on
there and find websites that
talk about what you want to do, like,
really get into and try to get
connected with people in the community
that you think you want to go into.
And you might change your
mind, too.
I was lucky that I had a kind
of one track mind and my goal and
it worked out.
But you might, you might
change your mind, you might decide
it's not for you.
But there's a lot of work and
research that you can do without
money to, to figure out what
you're going to do.
And there's a lot of people
out there, like me, that want to
mentor and help people who
want to be in our position and, you
know, ask questions.
And a couple parents, too,
have been, like, really worried about,
you know, current climate and
policies and stuff like that.
I'm, you know, happy to, to
talk to people about that.
Do you think there's an age
where it's almost too late for you
for the academy, like freshman year?
Is it too late for you to
start the process of going sophomore
year?
Is it something you really
need to start kind of planning for
and preparing.
For earlier in that I, I
needed to start earlier.
I don't think I would have
gotten the grades I got had.
I not, like, had that goal the
whole way through.
You know, there's those 1%
type folks who are captain of everything
and get A's across the board.
I, I had to have the goal to
motivate me to do better academically.
So for me to start at 12, it
was great.
I literally just talked to one
of my 1998 graduate classmates last
night and he was like, yeah,
you know, I didn't even know what
I wanted to do.
I didn't decide till, like, my
junior year.
Like, junior year is when you
want to have everything in.
And I was like, man, you're smart.
Because I wouldn't have made
it if I hadn't.
I needed the motivation.
I had to take the ACTS four
times to get my math score into the,
you know, acceptable range.
That would make me competitive
to go to the academy.
So, yeah, it depends, but I
don't think it's ever too early to
start.
Yeah, and too late.
I mean, there's people who
apply and don't get in, and they
go to like a preparatory school.
Air Force Academy has its own
prep school.
Some people go to college or
community college and just get, you
know, maybe you didn't get the
grades you wanted in high school.
And all of a sudden, you know,
a bolt of lightning came out of nowhere
and you're like, this is what
I want to do.
And I want to go to one of the
academies, you can still go to college,
work through there, go to
rotc, get good grades, apply and
go later.
And, you know, sometimes,
like, when you show that you really
want it, like, you really need to.
Want to be in the military, to
be in the military and enjoy it,
especially in aviation, where
it's, you know, a lot to study, a
lot to know.
Like, flying an airplane is
like walking and breathing, right?
Like, I need to know what the
ground threats are and the air threats
are and, you know, different
missiles and capabilities.
And then I'm flying a single
engine airplane with really complicated
systems.
So I need to know if something
happens, you know, out of the ordinary,
how to handle that.
So, you know, just
manipulating controls of an airplane
was like, that was you know, not.
Not my primary focus.
So you.
You kind of got to be good at
that, too.
But it comes.
I did my airline training.
Two of my really good friends
that I.
That I met there were kind of
trauma bonded for life through airline
training.
But they.
I mean, you know this.
If you're in the military, you
love telling your military stories.
So they would just go back and forth.
I'm just like, oh, you told
that last week.
Okay, this is a new one.
I'll listen.
But he was kind of one of my
buddies, Mike in Miami.
If he's listening to this,
what's up, dude?
He.
Yeah, hi, Mike.
He was talking about just
like, you get pimped, almost.
My wife's a doctor, so I don't.
If anyone doesn't know what
pimping is.
Just like, randomly, we could
ask questions, right?
They have you stand up, recite
stuff all the time, put you on the
spot.
Not necessarily something
you've been studying for the last
couple of days, but something
that you need to know, you need to
remember.
And he was just talking about
memorizing checklists, and I think
one of them was an emergency
checklist where you're like, you
have to evacuate, you have to
pull the shoot, you got to get out,
and you're upside down.
And it's just trying to
remember everything and how long
the steps are.
And it's just like, dude, try this.
Like, this one is nothing.
You need to know.
Four things for this airline.
It's like, this is like 13
things that you had to recite doing
a particular order to save
your life.
I was like, dang, yeah, I'll
be good with my airline checklist.
Yeah, there's critical action
procedures, caps, or we'd have bold
face.
That would be emergency
procedures and things that you need
to know without Looking
because you just don't have time
to look them up like an
abortion or abort.
Sorry, that's stupid.
And abortion, like in a, and
abort on takeoff, you have to know
how to do that because you
don't have time to look it up.
One of the favorite things to
do is like, you know, like loss of
canopy and you just like take
their checklist and like throw it
across the room.
I was also an instructor in
pilot training as my first assignment.
So I got to, you know, turn
around and kind of put people under
the microscope.
But I, I want to say that I
was doing it for their own good.
I wasn't really one of the
people who took joy out of like scaring
people and putting them on the spot.
So.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was an evaluator too as
a young captain, so I, A lot of times
I asked the same questions and
you know, and a lot of it was like,
hey, that the caution lights
in your aircraft, like, those are
really good systems knowledge.
Like what makes them go on,
what makes them come off and then
goes into like the emergency procedure.
So it's like really good
systems knowledge that's applicable
to you as you're flying your airplane.
Right.
Versus yeah, just trying to
haze somebody giving them EPS and
multiple emergency procedures.
So yeah, I feel like there's
certain people that just have way
too much joy in having that
over someone and just being able
to put them on the spot.
And they love tripping people
up and.
Then they get down to like,
how many rivets are in the underside
of the, you know, blah, blah, blah.
Like seriously, do I need to
know that?
I want you to know that.
Like, you probably don't even
know that.
Yeah.
I'm gonna ask you how many
rivets there are.
Yeah.
Probably wanna go.
Well, yeah, let's go to your
first day.
You know, you show up at Academy.
Were you one of few at a women
that wanted to be in aviation.
Did you find others that were
like, yeah, I wanna be a pilot too.
Let's do this together.
Yeah.
Your first day at the academy,
you're at attention.
You're like holding knowledge
in front of your face and like studying
it.
And you run all over at high
altitude getting.
Collecting all of the stuff
that they issue.
It's like three bags worth of
stuff and you're dragging them across
the terrazzo.
So honestly, I didn't even
know like almost how many people
around me.
Because if you looked around
they'd like yell at you for gazing
and so you're just.
It Was like straight into the
deep end with like, you know, a cinder
block Ted around your waist.
So it took a little bit of time.
My roommates that I had that
were women, one of them wanted to
fly, the other ones didn't.
Like one wanted to do law and,
you know, acquisitions and other
things.
So, you know, that's kind of a
misconception about the Air Force
too.
There's like, the majority of
the air forces don't fly and even
aren't air crew or, you know, pilots.
So there's a lot of amazing
people that support the force so
that the Air Force can employ
the way that it does.
And they're all important.
You don't have to be
manipulating the controls or be part
of air crew.
So.
I forgot what your question was.
I got off on a tangent.
I know, just talking about
being around other women at the Air
Force Academy that wanted to
be pilots.
Just how many were there?
Was it just like you said,
just you and your roommate?
Yeah.
No.
So when I got glider upgrade,
I was the only woman upgrading during
my section.
There were three other women
in my class that did it.
I met Nicole Malachowski.
I think there were maybe two
or three in her grade or her class
here.
There was like, one ahead of
me and we didn't get to talk a lot
all the time.
Like, I don't know, it's just
because you're doing your job and,
you know, learning how to fly
an airplane is on top of like a completely
full academic load and other responsibilities.
When you go to military
school, there's like a lot of administration
just to run a squadron.
So you're, you're doing those
jobs as well.
So, yeah, I didn't really have
any close women friends.
And the really good news is
that I did have a lot of male friends
and supporters and, you know,
people that helped me succeed.
Most of the naysayers were
kind of like, didn't have the courage
to speak up and say things to
my face as much.
Like there are a couple things
here and there, but I don't know,
it's, it's.
I mean, it still happens in
the aviation community as far as,
like, women are concerned.
But for sure, I find out if
someone makes like kind of a snide
comment, I just like, what do
you mean?
Like, can you explain that?
Or, you know, same.
Yeah.
I have a really good friend
and she's a 787 captain.
I love this story.
And she's an African American
woman, a black woman.
And there was someone riding
in the jump Seat.
And he has a friend who's
trying to get hired by the majors.
And he's like, well, he.
He hasn't gotten hired, you
know, and he applied to all these
places.
And she's like, I can hear
where this, like, conversation is
going.
And she's like, let's wait
till we land.
And of course he's like, yeah,
my friend can't get hired because
of all these minorities and,
like, women that are getting hired.
And.
And she's like, you know what?
There's, like, less than 200
professional black and African American
women pilots.
And she's like, which one of
my freaking friends took your friend's
job?
You know, like, gets here
without meeting the standards.
And a lot of people who are
under the microscope, like, the way
kind of minorities are, like,
you have to be two times, three times
better than people around you.
It feels like a lot of the time.
So.
And the audacity of someone to
say that, like, what gives you the
nerve to even think that or
even to bring, like, this is a good
idea.
Let me bring this up to
someone right now.
Like, why would you think in
the middle of a transatlantic flight?
Like, let's talk about this
when we land.
What did you think was going
to happen?
Yeah, I'll buy you a beer and
school you later.
Thanks, man.
Yeah, yeah.
So I don't know.
It is.
It's kind of like confirmation
bias, you know, when you, like, something
kind of pops up and you're
like, man, look at how prevalent
it is.
Well, it's really not that prevalent.
Like, women only still make up
about 6%, I think maybe I heard an
8% number of women pilots.
So it's.
Even with all the top guns and
all the female, you know, there's
Blue Angels just got their
first female pilot, and Air Force
Thunderbirds have had.
They just hired another woman.
And, you know, so there's like
six now that have been women pilots
on the Air Force Thunderbird.
So, you know, even with all
that, it's not really making a dent
too much.
Yeah, you're kind of answering
what my next question was going to
be, but more specific.
In your experience at the
academy, you mentioned that when
you got there, it was kind of
new for.
For letting women fly fighter
jets or letting women fly in the
academy in general.
Was there any pushback at all?
Was there.
Could you notice any, like,
hesitancy of wanting to give you
a spot, or was it truly just
like, hey, you can do this just as
much as someone else.
Here are all the resources,
and it's all the same.
And let's go.
Like, yes to both.
I think I got really good at
not listening to the haters because.
And I like to tell this to my,
you know, teenage son.
Like, other people's opinion
of you are none of your business.
Right.
Like, you either the airplane
doesn't know if you're a man or woman
or, you know, what religion
or, you know, any of those different
determining factors are, you
just go do your job.
And, you know, I'm gonna do
me, and I'm gonna be the best me.
And one of the most effective
ways to lead is by example.
And you can't deny when you go
out and you, you know, do your mission,
you have the great landings
and pilot training, you get a good,
you know, score on your
checkride or, you know, you shoot
down all your targets in a
large force engagement.
Like, you.
You can't deny it.
So just be your best and.
And do your best.
And, you know, there was.
We'd like to have, you know,
parties, roll calls.
There'd be a little bit of
drinking, a little bit li Sometimes.
So I actually had someone come
up to me at the end of my tour in
Korea, and he's like, you know
what, Blaze?
I never wanted to be in a
squadron with a woman before, but
you're all right.
And I'm like, wow.
I, like, I don't know how to
take that.
I'm glad I changed your mind, maybe.
But I.
You know, there's other chicks
out there that are all right.
You know, you're like, thanks.
Yeah.
I think maybe you should
switch to water now.
Yeah.
What do you say?
Back to that.
In this situation, like, in
the moment, you're like, okay.
No, I don't know.
I guess because it's kind of a
privilege in a way.
And I don't want to excuse,
like, you know, poor behavior on
the side of my squatter mates,
but it's also a little bit of a privilege
that I got to come into this
community that was predominantly
male, you know, and with that
growth, there comes some issues like
that to deal with.
And, you know, a lot of times,
like, I know where I stack up to
him, and I don't know, it's
not worth getting in an argument
over starting anything.
And the best times where
situations like that would kind of
come up, one of my bros would
step in, and I'm sure that there
were plenty of times when I
wasn't in the room and people said
something bad about maybe me
or women pilots.
I know that my bros stood up
for me.
So I actually, I moved back to
my hometown and in my hometown there's
an Annapolis graduate.
He's a couple years behind me,
and he was a flight surgeon.
He flew also, so in the Navy.
And I ran into his brother,
like downtown.
He's like, hey, my maiden name
was Bong.
He's like, you're Bong?
He's like, we were out hunting
with my brother and a bunch of his
Navy bros, and with the, you
know, potential new Secretary of
Defense and his stance against
women in combat, they kind of had
that come up as a topic of conversation.
He said a lot of the guys were
like, yeah, women don't really belong
there.
And.
And he was, he's like.
My brother was like, yeah, but.
But Bong, like, she's really
good, you know, she does.
So again, it's like, I'm glad
I could, you know, put a good face
on combat aviation for women.
But you got to give everybody
a chance, you know, it's for sure
either you can do it or you can't.
Like, there's plenty of men
who won't be able to manipulate the
controls of a multimillion
dollar airplane at, you know, close
to the mock and can go to a
tanker and manage like the multitasking
that's required in a fighter cockpit.
And you know, multitasking and
aviation is like a key capability
that you need and it's kind of
tenfold in the F16 or in the fighter
community.
So just, you know, work on
your skills and judge people for
how well they perform and not
like their gender for sure.
And like we said that you can
either do it or you can't.
Right?
Like, there comes a time
you're going to be tested and it
can go one of two ways.
You did it or you didn't do it.
So you have to perform.
It's kind of like every check
ride, right?
You have to perform on a
certain day to make sure you are
doing things to a certain rate
or whatever they're looking for.
And either do it or you don't.
And if you can do it, cool.
Welcome.
Let's go, you know, join the group.
Let's do it.
And no questions asked.
Yeah, and.
And you know, going back to
your question about, like, how do
you get there?
Well, you don't quit either, right?
So if you have a bad check
ride and you screw something up or
you're weak in certain areas,
like if you want to do it, then do
it.
Like, nobody gets to.
Nobody experiences success
without failure, right.
There's always Going to be
headwinds and difficulty and obstacles
and roadblocks.
And, you know, it may be more
for some people than others, but
you're definitely not going to
make it if you quit.
Yeah, and I feel like.
So I played sports my whole
life, and I feel like the teamwork
that goes around sports is
similar to the teamwork that goes
around military or in aviation
in general.
And as someone, when you want
to go to quote, unquote, battle,
we would call it in sports,
obviously it's not battle at all.
Right.
It's just a game.
But you want to know that the
person next to you has been through
adversity.
You can count on them when
times get tough.
And in aviation, you know, you
overcoming adversity really makes
you, I think, a better problem
solver, a better pilot, a better
person, because you know that
when times get tough, you can go
ahead and go above and beyond
and perform.
So learning from those
mistakes is more important than the
actual mistake you make.
It's how you bounce back.
It's how you come back and,
and pass a checkride again.
And even if you want to go to
the airlines, you know, they're going
to ask you why and they
genuinely want to know why.
They want to know how you were
able to overcome that adversity.
They're not necessarily
worried about the failure itself.
They're more worried about how
you handled that situation and what
you did to.
To overcome it.
Yeah, I.
One of the best compliments
that I've ever had or that you could
give a fellow service member
is that you'd go to combat with them,
you know, because their
capability and their performance
of their job affects
everyone's safety, including theirs.
So I do remember when I was.
I was a first assignment
instructor pilot in Del Rio, Texas.
It's called a fape.
And there was one woman in the squadron.
When I got there, she went on
to fly F16s.
And then I was the only one
for a while.
We had a couple of women students.
And then one of them became a
fape with me too in the T38.
But when my squadron commander
left, he like rattled off every single
person's call sign.
And it's kind of funny because
there's call signs, but he was like,
I would go to battle with you
guys, like, any day.
And I just, I remember it's
like standing at attention and, you
know, it's just this one
little moment and he meant it and
was just such a great commander.
And, you know, he was like
this proud Eagle pilot, like total,
you Know, fighter pilots,
fighter pilot and just was awesome
and you know, made sure that I
had the right opportunities and,
and got the right credit too
for what I did.
So yeah, it was pretty cool.
Shout out to him.
Yeah.
Hey Bodine.
There you go.
When talk about your
progression to in the military of,
you know, we talked about
gliders, but what came next?
Was it an application to
actual fighter jets?
Was an application to kind of
the training program and then talk
about kind of your path to
getting Thunderbird and kind of how
it all worked out.
Okay, well, I'm very non
standard also.
So after graduation from the
Air Force Academy, I was, I also
flew the Slings BT3 Firefly program.
And at the academy they
unfortunately had three fatal accidents
that killed both the student
and the instructor pilot.
So six altogether.
And I was in the airplane, I
was about to turn on the electric
driven boost pump and the
engine quit.
And my crew chief was like,
yeah, we wouldn't let you fly this
anyway because that one over
there had an engine like fuel cavitation
was what was happening.
And when you go back to idle,
the prop would keep windmilling and
you.
It was very, almost
undiscernable apparently that when
it quit while it was
windmilling, when you push the throttle
back in, you didn't realize
that you didn't have an engine or
it would quit.
So that was kind of one of the issues.
But I was like one ride short
of them going, okay, you've had enough
T3 time to go to pilot training.
And I also didn't have a
pilot's license, so they sent me
to Centennial Airport in
Colorado, gave me 40 hours and said,
do whatever you want, like you
just need to solo.
And so I got my ppl in like 36
hours or something like that.
I had a couple left to play
with at the end and, and then I went
to pilot training and I came
back as a first assignment instructor
pilot in the T38, which was awesome.
Like you're 23 years old and
you've got the keys to a supersonic
jet with another 20 something
year old student?
Yeah, but it was, I mean that
was a lot of trust and yeah, man,
I loved it.
It was a really good assignment.
And is it common for someone
to finish kind of training you go
straight into instructing?
Yeah, every class they.
And things have changed a lot
in pilot training since I went through,
but there's usually like one
or two first assignment instructor
pilots that come back.
So they've, they've changed
the way that they award wings now.
So I'M I would have to ask
someone like currently what it's,
it's like all good.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, it was common back
then for us to go straight in but
man, you get so much airmanship.
We'd go cross country all the
time and a lot of fighter pilots,
you know, take off from base
X, go fly around the flagpole and
come back and land and they
don't operate in the national airspace.
So I got to go and you know,
be cross country flying to class
B.
You know, I flew
internationally, I flew through Canada
up to Alaska for an air show
at one point in the T38 which was
really interesting because
it's, you know, not irrefuelable
and it took five hops to get
there from Texas.
So there were just so many
awesome experiences that you can't
get anywhere else and you
can't beat the price, right?
Like at this first rate
training and you know you are paying
for it with your blood, sweat
and tears.
But it's, there were so many
awesome experiences.
I just, I feel so lucky that I
did that.
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episode.
I mean that sounds like a, a
sweet opportunity.
Like you said, being 23 or
whatever the age was.
And then go ahead instructing
new people and kind of molding them
into the pilot the Air Force
wants and what you think that they
need to be as.
Oh, did you feel like it was
easy for you to make the transition
from student to instructor?
Especially with someone.
You know, there's a lot of
when people become instructors, you
know, the first couple hours,
like why, how am I teaching someone
something?
You know, it's like I barely
even know what to do.
But what was the confidence
level like when you're going into
that?
So after I graduated from
pilot training and before I came
back as an instructor, they
had a pit class pilot instructor
training, what that stood for.
So you know, like this is how
you do a traffic pattern stall and
you know, it Sounds like
little mice running on the wingtips.
And then when it sounds like
elephants stomping, like that's when
you're getting into the stall.
They're like all of these
like, you know, kind of things that
we memorized.
And I think I flew maybe 40,
50 hours during pilot instructor
training which like
internalized everything that I had
learned through pilot training
and some of the pressure was gone
and so I could just like
really fly the airplane and learn
how to fly the plane.
So by the time I got back to
Del Rio, I felt like really good
about it.
And then you've got guys
coming in that hadn't flown a T38
in eight years and they'd been
out flying over Bosnia in an F16
getting shot at by SA3s and
one of my buddies who did that was
like, I've never been in more
danger than I've been at in pilot
training and I've been shot at
before, so.
So yeah.
Cause I mean they don't know
anything and I mean there's, it's
just great.
I don't, I love being a single
seat pilot too and you know, I'm
going to get into the civilian
flying here in a little bit.
But I, I didn't really enjoy
having an instructor in the backseat,
especially when I was, you
know, it's like just an upgrade sometimes
because they just giving you input.
Like I don't really need input
to fly this plane and I'm training
to fly a plane that you know,
only has one seat in it.
So thank you very much.
But yeah, so that, that was
really different.
But you know, I'll tell you.
So after pilot training I went
to instructor.
Sorry, it was called IFF
Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals.
So after pilot training I went
to IFF Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals
and I flew the T38A.
It was like 1300 hours as an
instructor and I go to the T38C which
now has updates like some
glass in the cockpit, a heads up
display.
And I tell you what, it was
harder for me to lear how to fly
a T38C even though I had 1300
hours in the plane than it was for
me to learn to go from the
T38C to the F16.
Really?
Yeah.
Cuz like you've been looking
at the same place for your, you know,
engine and you know, like I
wanna see what my oil pressure's
doing right now or my EGT or
you know, exhaust gas temperature
and.
Yeah.
And it's not where it was for
the last three Years.
So things are everything that
was like that second nature, like
this is like walking.
You had to put deliberate
energy into like getting the data.
That was just like you didn't
even realize that you were, you know,
taking in before.
So that was tough.
But it's like mental space he
didn't know you were wasting because
you knew where to look.
And now you're like, wait, I
don't look there.
And then you're two seconds
behind now.
Yeah.
And then like looking through
the heads up display and you know
like where you get your information.
And the, the T38C heads up
display, the HUD was the same as
the F16, so that was great
that I got to learn that.
And so then I went to Luke Air
force base for F16 training.
And my first flight, I got to
go out to the range and we did some
strafing and it was a.
There's a couple two seat F16s
out there.
And so I was in one of those.
And the gun is literally like
you're sitting right next to it.
It's like outside the
airplane, but it's, I mean it's inside
the airplane but outside the cockpit.
So this, this guy was like,
you know it's gonna go off and he's.
You're gonna know exactly
what's gonna go off.
It's still gonna scare the
crap out of you.
And sure enough, it just like,
it like it rattles your whole like
everything.
And like we're, we're precise
with that thing when we practice.
But I swear it's like almost
hard to see cuz it's like you're
everything shaking.
Like the jet shaking, your
body shaking.
But like your bones like
inside like you're just like.
Yeah.
Your brain shaking.
Yeah, like, holy cow.
Like that was awesome.
Do it again.
Yeah.
So that was great.
So after F16 training at Luke,
I went to Korea and flew there for
a year.
And the biggest thing I
learned there was a lot of weather,
like horrible weather.
And I already had a lot of
experience flying.
So I was one of the people
that was like down to a lower weather
category.
So they'd be like, blaze, come
to the desk and some like lucky lieutenant
would get to go study in the
vault and I'd take off and fly in
like 301.
And we'd break out of the sun
at like 30,000ft or break out of
the clouds and see the sun at
30,000ft and then go right back in,
all the way back.
And radar trail and F16 radars
don't like humidity and moisture.
So sometimes your radar would
break lock.
And that back then, that was
the only way that we knew where our
flight lead was.
You had an idea, but you're
turning and getting vectored around.
So I learned a lot there too,
about when to speak up and when not
to and how the systems work.
And it was fun.
But man, you know what?
I felt lucky that I was
probably the only person on the Korean
peninsula many days to see the sun.
Oh, that's never been in Korea before.
I never knew that it was so
cloudy and the weather was bad.
Well, that year we also had
like this.
We called it the Snowfoon.
It was like a typhoon of snow.
Like every day for weeks.
We kept getting snow.
So.
And there are a couple good
days, but there was a lot of them
were really bad weather.
So after Korea, I went to Hill
Air Force Base and I deployed to
Iraq and I flew for six
months, over 200 hours of combat
in Iraq in 07 and 08.
And we were actually there
during what they called the surge.
Al Qaeda had stepped up their
attacks and the Air Force or the
United States had decided that
we were gonna, like, take action.
So we were pretty busy
employing over there at the time,
which was, I don't know, I
felt like the Thunderbirds was really
cool, but I really felt like
everything that I worked for was
to be there and to be
competent and to help save the lives
of, you know, the United
States soldiers and our allies there.
So it was a really rewarding time.
And I got home from that and I
decided I wanted to leave active
duty after 10 years.
And I got pregnant without
planning to get pregnant.
My ex husband, we both
separated, we were both flying and
we both quit our jobs.
And then I got pregnant and I
was like, oh, shoot.
So here we go.
Yeah, get me a mom.
I know I'd signed up to be a
part time reservist.
Yeah.
So I went from like, you know,
steely eyed fighter pilot to pregnant.
It was a tough swing for me,
but my son's like the best thing
in the whole world, so.
Yep, love it.
So, yeah, so then I went and
flew T38 again at Shepherd Air Force
Base.
The Euro NATO joint jet pilot
training, which is awesome.
All the different cultures
that you get to work with there.
And then I was like up in the
middle of the night with my infant
and I saw the mail on the
counter and there was a reserve magazine
called Citizen Airmen and they
had a little blurb in it about the
first reserve pilot who'd been
Selected for the Thunderbirds.
And I was like, I want to do that.
It's gonna be me.
So then it happened.
I.
You know, I applied.
I.
Great support coming out of
the woodwork, too.
Like, the wing commander had
seen all of the great work that I
had done in Iraq.
The JTACs, the people
controlling our attacks, seemed to
be partial to the women on the radio.
Really.
My call sign was Ninja, and my
whole squadron was Ninja.
And everyone in the squadron
was extremely proficient and competent,
and we had a great reputation
with the guys on the ground.
Like, if your life is in
danger, like, you want Ninja.
There's.
That's awesome.
But there were three women in
our squadron, which was, like, probably
the most I've ever had at one time.
So, yeah, so the other
commanders would give him a hard
time.
He had a harem of women down there.
But, yeah, but they.
They really liked having us.
But.
So the wing vice wing
commander that had been at Hill was
at shepherd, and he knew I was
applying, and he came in one day,
and he sat down.
He's like, blaze, is there
anything I can help you with?
You know, anything going on?
And I knew exactly what he was
blind for.
Anything at all?
Yeah.
Seeing this opening.
Yeah.
Well.
And he was accepting all of
the applications from the active
duty, but I was reserve, and
so he didn't have to do anything
for me.
And he wrote me a letter of recommendation.
That's awesome.
Even if I hadn't gotten it, it
was such a great experience to go
and ask these commanders I'd
had in the past to write me a letter.
And just some of the great
things that people said about you
was, like.
That was meaningful.
Was this always a goal of yours?
Was this, like, kind of, like
the end goal?
Like, what you wanted to do?
You know, what was the plan to
do all this and stay active duty
and then go the Thunderbirds,
or did this all just kind of happen?
Like, you literally just look
down at the magazine, and you're
like, hey, cool.
I can do this as a reserve.
Let's go.
I.
I mean, I loved watching the
Thunderbirds fly, but my dad was
a Vietnam combat pilot.
His father, my grandpa, was in
the Coast Guard, and he would tell
us about capturing German
submarines and, like, shooting, you
know, giant shells, like,
giant guns off the deck.
And he was, like, clearing hot
brass off the deck.
And my grandma on my mother's
side, too, joined the Coast Guard,
and it was a program similar
to the wasp, where they could free
up men to go into combat.
So she did a lot of Clerical
and office work and running from
the land based headquarters to
the boat and stuff like that.
So I didn't want to go to combat.
Nobody in the United States does.
But you train for war and you
pray for peace.
And I just felt like I owed it
to my family that if we ever get
in that situation, that that's
what I would be ready for and train
for.
So the Thunderbirds was not something.
But I mean, hello, like it'd
be cool to do that.
And I also thought you had to
be like completely a perfect pilot.
And yeah, here's a secret.
Thunderbird pilots mess up too.
You know, like we.
Everyone's human and it's
just, you know, flying like certain
aircraft have certain errors
the way they're designed that you're
kind of driven to.
And it's being a better pilot.
As you catch yourself earlier
then you then like a newer pilot
will let things go too far to
a dangerous level.
And when you're more
experienced, like you can stop things
like it might be a potato
where you're like, you know, one
second like, oh yeah, and you
can fix that.
But yeah, you're like, I know
where this is going, I need to stop
this now.
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
And that's what's great about
being instructor too, because you
can sit there and be like, oh,
he's going to do this and he's going
to do that.
And you're like, yep, sure
enough, you know, and I even told
you you were going to do all
that in the brief and you still did
it.
At some point you have to make
the mistake on your own though, right?
Yeah.
Like, I feel like you really
only learn when you just mess it
up and you're like, oh, that's
why we don't want to do that.
It's like we almost died.
Okay, I'm not going to do that again.
And that's it.
It like sinks in and you like
internalize those lessons and you
know, that's really important.
So yeah, that's when you're
like, just don't do it again, please.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, I also love the
F16 and it was a great way to get
back there and then just to
kind of represent a different demographic
and help, you know, be that
person that other people can see
and you know, young girls,
but, and see somebody that kind of
reminds them of themselves and
open up some new possibilities.
But I'm also a boy, mom.
I have one son and it means a
lot to me that he's not gonna limit
the women in his life to
certain roles because he grew up
with, you know, a fighter
pilot mom.
So.
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah.
My wife is a doctor.
She's doing some really cool stuff.
And knowing that my son will
be able to look up to her and be
like, well, hey, look what.
Look what women can do, or,
look what my mom can do.
I think that's really cool to have.
And your son is doing the
exact same thing.
You know, when.
When he's at school and the
kids are like, yeah, my dad does
this.
You're like, well, my mom was
a fighter pilot, flew the Thunderbirds
and did this.
And they're just like, okay,
your mom's cooler than my dad.
Cool.
Thanks.
Well, he used to think, like,
everyone's parents were Thunderbird
pilots, because no way.
A bunch of the kids from the
team went to the same school.
And, you know, that's who we'd
hang out with on the weekends and
air shows and stuff like that.
So it's it.
I got held over for a third
year because we got sequestered in
2013, so we got an extra bonus
year on the team.
And I'm glad for it because he
was six then and he understood it
a lot more.
Yeah, that was neat.
That's really cool.
Yep.
Oh, God.
I was gonna say, when you're
flying combat, I have a couple buddies
who are in the military.
I talked about the other ones
because they're separate buddies,
but they mention how, you
know, when you're just sitting in
the office or when you're just
flying around the United States,
you know, you don't really
necessarily feel like you're.
This is their words.
This isn't my words.
That they're literally, like,
doing much.
You know, they're just flying
to fly.
They're flying to train.
Obviously, you're training for
combat, but there's a difference
between training for combat
and actually being in combat and
feeling like.
They both told me that the
sense of kind of, like, self worth
or actually doing the mission
that you're training for was so fulfilling
in what they're doing and
knowing that you're either making
a difference of people on the
ground or maybe making difference
in a war or a group movement.
Did you feel that, too, kind
of being over there?
Yeah, I definitely did.
And, like, in the fighter
community, the, you know, we set
up scenarios all the time, and
so we're always practicing it, but
definitely when you get there,
I always thought of the phrase, failure
is not an option.
Right.
And, like, what that meant to
me before that experience was like,
man, I can't screw up because,
like, you know, everything's gonna
fall apart if I don't.
And when I got in there, it
was like, I'm trained.
I can handle anything.
Like, failure's not an option
because I can handle whatever curveball
you throw at me.
Like, there's.
There was no doubt in my mind
that, you know, if my engine quit,
I knew what to do, or if
someone got pinned down by, you know,
the enemy, like, I knew what
to do, or, you know, like, running
out of gas and, like, helping
out my wingman and bringing in another
set of fighters.
Like.
Like, we were just so well trained.
And it wasn't, like, a cocky confidence.
It was like.
Like, I know what to do, and
people's lives are at stake.
And so in that way, it was,
like, really rewarding and really
fulfilling.
And for the most part, like, I
had some leadership duties to do.
But you, like, sleep, fly,
work out, eat, sleep, fly, workout,
eat.
So life is, you know, pretty
simple, and it's nice, and it's.
You get to focus on the fun things.
Yeah.
No, it sounds like paperwork
is a.
Is a big thing in the military
world, and when you don't have to
do paperwork and you can just
eat, sleep, fly, work out, I feel
like that's kind of the best
idea for.
For a military pilot.
Yeah.
Well, and we had a lot of stress.
Ish.
Because you'd have to have your.
After we got back, if you
employed weapons, you had, like,
a colonel on base show up and,
like, look at your tapes.
And so the whole flight back
to the base after you're done with
your missions, you're like, do
I do that right?
Did I do that right?
You know, so, like, judging every.
Every decision.
Oh, yeah.
They're like, pause, you know,
like, I did this, you know, after
being in the plane for three
hours at night managing all these
issues, and then when I hit
that pickle button, man, I hope everything
lined up the way it was
supposed to.
And, you know, it did, like,
99% of the time.
Yeah.
And even the ones that were a
little bit out of parameters still
had the desired effects.
Good.
So.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I don't know.
It was, like, really rewarding
to be doing what you were training
and to be part of the team, too.
Like, I love pulling up on the
tanker after I dropped my first bombs,
and the boomer was, like, so excited.
Like, oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
I didn't have to say anything.
Like, he was just looking and
to, you know, like, see how we're
doing.
So, you know, they're part of
the mission, just like we were.
So.
Yeah.
And we talked about how
awesome it is to be such a great
role model to your son.
When your son asks questions
about what you do, you know, how
do you answer those questions?
Do you.
Do you go into full detail?
Do you kind of expert details
just so he knows kind of what mom
did, like, and what the risks
were, what the reward was and what
you actually had to do?
Or was it just kind of like,
ah, fly.
Fly airplanes.
You know, I do all this kind
of talk a little bit about explaining
what you do and did in the
military to your son.
I think it just, he grew up
with it ingrained.
We didn't really hide anything
from him.
So.
His dad is also a, you know,
former F16 pilot.
So he, he just, he grew up
around it.
And I think he's.
He's interested in being in
the military.
Cool.
Like me, he's only flown a
handful of times, so that might be
something I can give him.
He's a sophomore.
I can give him some experience
before he graduates from high school
to see if that's a route that
he wants to take.
So, you know, and there's a
lot of video games with a lot of,
like, killing.
He loves doing airsoft.
And he's like, yeah, maybe I
want to do this.
I was like, you know, every
time one of those BBS hits you, like,
if that was a real bullet in
real life, like, you have to think
about that.
Yeah.
Like the real world
ramifications for doing something
like this.
But, you know, there's some,
like, difficult questions surrounding
combat and weapons employment.
And I really thought people
would ask me on the Thunderbirds,
and nobody asked me till I got
to a ROTC squadron.
And I was like, well, I'm
going to answer these things honestly
for you because this is what
you're signing up to do potentially,
you know, when you graduate,
when you get commissioned.
So, yeah, it's.
I mean, it's war.
Like I said, we don't want to
do that.
But there were some really
awful things that Al Qaeda, Iraq
was doing in the country.
And, you know, we had guys
getting blown up by roadside bombs,
like Americans on a regular basis.
And to be able to stop that
and look for that, find people digging
holes, find, you know, hot
spots on the side of the roads.
Like, all those things that we
did in combat definitely saved lives.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I mean, so when you're in that
process and you find someone, it's
just like, you see someone
Digging a hole, you just like, shoot.
I was gonna say there's a long.
Process and there's like a
ground commander who's like in a
command and control center,
like pretty far removed.
You know, he's got his cup of
coffee and he's been to the, the
restroom and he's got a good
night's sleep and all that stuff.
Who's like helping to make the
final employment.
He can think through it.
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, two kind of off
the wall kind of stories.
One night there was a town
that there was an intersection and
they'd had a lot of bombs.
So like we're going to go into
this town, we're going to look at
this.
Well, I see four people
sitting around like this like glowing
hole and they're like getting
ready to drop on them.
And I was like, like it
doesn't look like they're digging
anything.
And sure enough, it was like
good guys.
Iraqi security forces making
tea in the middle of the night.
Like, holy cow.
Like if we hadn't double,
triple, quadruple checked, like that
could have been really ugly.
And then this one's kind of comical.
Like one person got in a car
and they like drove.
We see them and they pulled
over and you see them like digging
a hole while they were going
to the bathroom.
But the targeting pot is so
like, picks up thermal differences
so much that it looked like
there's like a hole and then there's,
you can see a temperature
difference from whatever went into
the hole.
And it's like, dude, that guy
almost like got smoked cuz he had
to go to the bathroom.
So it was, you know, it wasn't
that close.
But you're, you know, you have
to take some time.
Just the idea that you can
just be going to the bathroom and
then, you know, a couple
minutes later, lights out, game over,
right?
It's like, dang, just.
You wouldn't even know your
time, man.
Yeah, a lot of it was.
And it was at night too.
Like people don't do that
during the day.
I assume they don't anyway, but.
And then the thermal
difference is a lot different at
night too.
For the, the targeting pod to
be able to see the I.R.
picture.
Um, yeah, so it was kind of comical.
And he didn't almost get, you
know, we, but that's where you have
to do your due diligence and
make sure.
And then, you know, we got
smart and be like, hey, can you check
with the, whoever's local
there and, and see if there's any
patrols out or you know, to
make sure that we.
We got the right people.
We.
There was a.
I went to Congress right after
my Thunderbird tour, and one of the
congressmen, I won't say the
name, but he was like, we need to
be wire jets coming back with
bombs on the rails.
That's, you know, we need to
be getting rid of all of our bombs
when our fighters go out.
Like, well, sure as heck, we
do not need to be doing that, because
bad things would happen if you don't.
You know, you need the kind of.
That human and a couple people
in the chain to make sure that we're
doing the right thing.
Also, just shooting bombs.
A shoot bomb sounds expensive, right?
Like, yeah, they're not cheap.
Yeah.
When you're moving on to the
Thunderbirds, it's a completely different
mentality from flying in combat.
Did you.
I mean, I.
I say that like I know it.
I obviously don't, but just
from the outside looking in, it's
a complete different mentality.
Right.
Like, obviously, you or your
team, you have a mission, but your
mission isn't necessarily to
get to save people on the ground.
It's to promote the Air Force.
It's promote Thunderbirds,
promote flying, to promote.
Promote America and a brand.
Right.
Talk about the mentality of
you kind of flipping that switch
of your mission of what you're doing.
Well, the.
The Air Force Thunderbirds are
a team that represents the pride,
precision, and professionalism
of the entire Air Force.
And I also kind of include the
Department of Defense in that.
So it's really difficult flying.
Some of.
There was.
One of the pilots had been
through weapon school, and he was
like, this is harder than.
Than going through weapon
school, which is like our top gun.
And, like, you're exhaustive.
You'd fly twice a day, every
single day.
And you start out at higher
altitudes with maybe two aircraft,
and you learn how to do a loop
and a roll, and then, you know, you
add more airplanes and you
gradually, like, step down.
You gradually increase the
number of aircraft, and you start
with the easy maneuvers and
work your way up to the harder maneuvers.
They're all pretty tough, so.
But that's a representation
for what everyone does.
So while it's a completely
different mission dealing with press,
and my crew chiefs installed a
little lip gloss holder for me in
the cockpit, which is awesome.
Basically Velcro.
But because we, like, fly four
hours from Vegas to Atlantic City,
and you get out and, like,
there's someone with a camera in
your face, nice to, like,
interview about the weekend air show.
So it's like Jackie Cochran,
who was the founder of the wasps.
It was like, you know, make
sure you always have your, like,
look good when you get out of
the airplane.
So I know it's a little
sexist, but I think it's kind of
cool too.
So.
I think it's cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, the mission was different.
The, the pace was really high.
It felt like a combat pace.
Like you're in a different
city all the time.
I mean, the ramifications for
screwing up when you have, you know,
probably a couple thousand
people filming you that could go
on YouTube within five seconds
if you do something wrong.
Like, there was a lot at
stake, so a lot of the pressure and,
and the pace was really
similar to a regular, regular fighter
squadron and going to combat.
But you got to work really
close to with, you know, your crew
chief.
Like, I, I didn't set any of
my switches or handle any of my gear.
Like, we had air crew flight
equipment and, and crew chiefs, and
my crew chief would set my switches.
And there's certain switches
in the F16 that you have, they're
red guarded and they have to
be in the right position when you
start the aircraft or bad
things can happen.
And like, you trusted them to
do all of that for you.
And some things were like,
personal pilot preference and like,
they knew where to put my
armrest and how high my seat should
be and like, too high.
Too high, too high.
Nope.
Perfect.
All right, Got it.
Well, and then when we're like
doing our ground ops, we're just,
just looking straight ahead.
If you're in front of a crowd.
So you have to do everything
by feel too.
So that's why it's important
that, that everything's set up the
right way.
So that teamwork and that
trust was something that was just
a level up.
Oh, sorry.
Do you feel the pressure?
You know, you mentioned that
there's a lot of pressure to perform.
Right.
It's a different kind of pressure.
It's not necessarily people
dying, but it's media exposure and
whether it's embarrassment or
just a mistake, that just is really
bad.
Do you feel that pressure before?
I kind of, I feel like it's
kind of like a NFL player like preparing
for a big football game every
single week.
Right.
Like, you got so much pressure.
You train, you train, you
train, you train.
And then like we talked about
earlier, you.
You got to perform.
You know, you either do or you don't.
And you constantly have to, to
perform at air shows.
And do you feel that pressure
all the Way up until you get in the
cockpit.
And then you kind of sit there
and you're like, all right, it's
game time.
It all kind of goes away.
Um, yeah, I think it's more
game time.
And before it starts, you
know, there's like a whole like,
ground thing.
And you turn around and like
some of the shows they had 400,000
people like standing or like
were there.
So you'd be like looking at
all these people and you can see
them talking and pointing at
you and stuff like that.
Um, but yeah, once you like hit.
Once that engine starts
cranking, like you're, you're on
duty.
And the longer you.
The more repetitions you get
and the further on in your tenure
there, you get like.
Like being out by an inch
feels like a mile.
And so your self preservation
kind of goes away because you trust
the boss and you know exactly
what he's going to do and you trust
your teammates.
So it kind of helps to take
the nerves away.
But it's funny because your
community, you know, with a lot of
pilots that are listening,
most people don't know if you mess
up anyway, you know, if.
You mess up but no one else does.
Yeah, you know, for sure.
We had like a practice day.
My first air show was at sun
and Fun and it was a practice day,
but there was like, however
many people are at sun and Fun on
a Thursday.
Were like watching us practice
and we did an echelon turn and there
was like a compression and I
was like, out.
I was in the front page of the paper.
The next day was like this two
plus two formation.
Like they thought it was like
the most beautiful formation.
I was embarrassed beyond belief.
Like, that was the most
embarrassing thing that's probably
ever happened to me in my life.
They thought it was the
coolest thing.
Ever and front page and the
perfect like two plus two formation.
No, it's supposed to be four
aircraft, like all, you know, like
one on one, like kind of
sandwiched together.
So.
So needless to say, I
shouldn't look for that front page
on the background.
I've looked for it.
I can't find it easily.
Um, but the other funny thing
is that, you know, you'd get like.
And it was usually like a 16
year old kid who'd come up to you
and be like, what happened on takeoff?
When you got a little bit aft?
You're like, come on, dude.
Like, yeah.
So they'd give us a hard time.
So I kind of keyed in on that.
And like, if I had a friend
who'd come through the autograph
line.
I was like, hey, when you talk
to four, ask him why he was deep
in F on takeoff.
You can see his face fall.
It's just, like, jokingly,
like, plant little palms for them
to keep it fun.
But, yeah, it was.
It was funny.
You'd get these, like, younger
kids kind of critiquing, like, why
did that go wrong there?
Like, give me a break.
Because I'm human.
There were birds.
Look, like the last show
you're at.
What'd you do wrong?
Yeah, seriously, like, it's,
you know, minor date details.
Most people don't know.
Yeah, that's so cool.
Yeah.
But the team looks amazing.
Like, they've done some great things.
And there's been awesome
collaboration between the Thunderbirds
and Blue Angels since COVID
and they've really stepped it up.
I'm super proud of them.
Is there a rivalry at all
between the two?
Is there, like, I know we're
better than you, or was it historically
their rivalry at all?
Yeah, of course.
A lot of people, you know,
they're like, oh, you were a Blue
Angel.
And I'm like, no, I was a Thunderbird.
It was like a Blue angel, but better.
Yeah.
And I made friends with my
counterpart who was Blue Angel 3
when I was Thunderbird 3.
And, you know, like, one day,
we must have been in a.
Like, close to a Navy
community or a coastal community,
and I got asked as a blue
angel like, 10 times that day, and
I texted Nate.
I was like, hey, do you ever
get asked if you're a Thunderbird?
And he wrote back all the time.
And I was like, okay, thanks.
So, you know, my.
My son had this, like, die
cast blue angel that he would not
go to sleep without it.
I would take it and hide it in
the bottom of the toy box, and he'd,
like, pull it out, and.
I'm like, you want to be a Thunderbird?
They're better.
Yeah, it's just because it's
blue, Right?
Kids love blue.
That's the only reason.
Yeah.
Thunderbirds.
Yeah, all the way.
But.
So there is rivalry, but, you
know, there's a lot of cross talk.
The.
There's a famous picture, if
you've seen, of the Thunderbird,
who's, like, ejecting out of
the plane, like, right before it
impacts.
The Blue Angels had a mishap
that was kind of similar to that
one where the pilot did not survive.
So, you know, things like
that, learning from our mistakes,
that cross talk is.
Has been established there so
it can.
Can keep everyone safe.
And definitely a lot of mutual
respect more than competition.
But it's just always fun to have.
Some kind of rivalry.
Exactly.
Yeah.
You gotta give people a hard time.
It's fun.
Like, there's rivalry within
the team between the diamond pilots
and the solo pilots, or like
the right side versus the left side
or, you know, it keeps things fun.
Was being a Thunderbird
everything you thought it would be?
No, I thought it would be all
about the flying.
And it was 5% flying and 95
relationships and interactions with
people.
Like, whether it's people in
an air show line, sometimes if it's
a big crowd, they will crush
kids up by the fence because they
want to get your signature.
And it's just like, like,
like, how do you manage that kind
of thing?
Or, you know, you maybe had an
issue with one of the other teammates
and just having to start over
and reset every day when you come
in.
Focus on the mission.
Cause that's what's most important.
Like, whatever kind of tiff is
going on between you, that doesn't
matter.
And then interacting with,
like, I had a lot of generals.
I was.
I started out as a major and I
pinned on Lt.
Col.
My last air show, but I had
all these, like, generals in my backseat
and where I would have been,
like, scared before.
I'm like.
Like, they need me.
You know, they're gonna think
I'm awesome.
They're gonna be really happy,
you know, when this whole thing's
over.
So, you know, that kind of
changed my perspective on things.
Yeah, I mean, it's awesome.
I mean, just talking about
your career.
I mean, I feel like we could
talk for.
For hours and hours and hours,
and someone's gonna let us just be
like, why don't you ask more
about this or that or that?
But, like, so we'll have to do more.
But yeah, I'll come back on.
I also heard the T7A Redhawk,
which is.
That's sick.
Yeah.
There are only two aircraft
that existed at the time.
They're experimental.
Boeing owns them and rid a
couple aircraft now.
But I got to fly five hours in it.
And I got to go to General
Brown's change of command when he
became the Chief of Staff of
the Air Force.
That's sick.
Yeah.
And we had the.
The T7 was sitting in the
background, so I got to go through
all the academics and the
sims, and I only flew it five times.
But I was the.
I was really in charge of
business development for the program.
I wasn't there primarily to
fly, so it was.
It was awesome to get to do that.
I was the first woman
qualified to fly in it.
They didn't let me fly, unfortunately.
Like, I didn't get to take it
solo because they only had two.
And like, all the tests
revolved around those aircraft being
able to fly, and they could
not answer the mail if I did, you
know, blue attire or something
like that, you know, not that I would
have, but they didn't want to
pants, so I forgive them.
They were awesome to let me fly.
Yeah, it was really cool.
That's so cool.
I mean, just the opportunities
that you've had and the opportunities
to be, you know, the person.
Person that you saw when you
were going to lacrosse to watch the
air show.
Right.
Like, did it ever come to you
and kind of.
Did it ever hit you that you
are doing what inspired you to get
into the military and to fly?
Absolutely.
And the biggest moment that
illustrates that was like, I'm not
getting choked up.
It is giving me goosebumps.
When I was a freshman at the
academy, academics were really hard
for me.
And I got a 2.2 grade point
average my first semester.
Oh, dang.
Welcome to the show.
I know.
And I'm like, oh, I don't know
if I'm gonna make it.
And I was beating myself up,
and I was like, why the heck did
I go through all this pain all
these years?
You know, I could have been
out hanging out with my friends or
a normal school and drink
every weekend doing something else.
And I was.
And I, like, worked so hard.
I've only done one year.
I've literally gave it like 210.
I don't know if I can even
make it through through three more
years.
They do get a little bit easier.
But at that moment, it was.
I just finished finals and
that graduation week was coming up,
and I was walking across the
terrazzo or the campus at the Air
Force Academy, and I'm like,
head hanging down, feeling really
sorry for myself.
And there was this, like, this
rush go by.
Scares the crap out of me.
I look up and no kidding, it
was a Thunderbird going between the
chapel at the Capitol or of the.
It was a Thunderbird going
between the chapel at the Air Force
Academy.
It's got all the spires on the
top and then the front range.
It's like this beautiful white chapel.
And then the mountain
background and then this F16.
Red, white and blue.
F16 going through that.
And in that moment, as a
cadet, I was like, that's what I'm
here for, you know, because I
might not make it, but I'm there.
I'm not going to let anything
take away my opportunity to maybe
get to fly a fighter someday.
I love it.
What a great mentality.
Yeah.
And Fast forward to 2012, when
we showed up for the Air Force Academy
graduation.
I dropped down to fly my
lines, and I hadn't even realized
it until I did it.
I was the jet flying between
the chapel and the Front Range.
And I just hope that my
service and what I did was inspiring
other cadets.
The way it inspired me.
I'm sure it has.
I mean, how could it not with
everything that you kind of talked
about right now and what
you've been able to do and accomplish
and still what you can do and
how you're telling your story, whether
it's through a podcast or
whether it's through motivational
speaking or whether it's just
talking to other girls in aviation
or guys in aviation, or if
it's your son saying what your mom
did, you know, who knows, the.
The other sophomore girl that
could be there, a boy that's like,
oh, that's cool.
If your mom did that, I want
to do that.
So just what you did is awesome.
And it's an honor to talk to you.
I have a couple more questions
and we'll go like one or two.
But for someone that's
accomplished a lot in the military,
that's done a lot in the
program, that's someone, you know,
you've reached a dreams.
For a lot of kids that kind of
think, like, I want to be a Thunderbolt
pilot or I want to fly in
combat or I want to do this, you
know, what overall would you
say makes a good Air Force pilot
or fighter pilot or just any
pilot in the military?
Determination and being
devoted to it.
And, you know, like we talked
about before, just the ability to.
To take a failure and continue
to move on the Thunderbirds, we like
to joke like, you're only as
good as your next pass.
You might have done the best
whatever echelon turn, but you have
10 more maneuvers, so you have
to do everything well.
And I mean, a lot of your
folks have been in simulators, right?
And you screw something up,
you can't harp on, oh, I messed up
that approach or that landing
or whatever the the event was.
You have to new jet, new j
restart in your brain control, alt,
delete and like, you know, go.
So that ability when you run
into roadblocks where you stumble,
just having the confidence and
the courage to try again.
Yeah, no, I think that's huge.
And I think that's huge in
anything in life, too.
Right.
There's so many parallels
between sports and flying.
That's just crazy.
I mean, just what you're
saying just reminded me of.
Of playing football and just
everything that they tell you, you
know, I was a quarterback,
throw an interception.
Short memory.
You got to keep going.
You got to go.
And that's you.
You can take that into life.
You can take that in the
military, you can take that into
flying.
Just being able to pursue,
just persevere.
There you go.
Can't say that word.
Right, Right.
But being able to persevere
and continue.
And a lot of.
A lot of people, this is kind
of like a segue and getting off track
a little bit.
But a lot of people kind of
ask about a podcast, right?
Like, how did you do it?
How to.
Like, what.
What's the point?
It's like, honestly, it's just
continuing to do it.
Like there was never, like a
moment, like a one episode or one
thing that made it kind of pop
off or do well.
But it's just the fact that
you don't stop.
You know, you don't have many
people listen right away.
You don't.
You're not going to make
sponsorship money for a while, but
just continuing to do it and
put yourself out there.
And eventually people like,
oh, this podcast been around for.
I've listened to this.
Not bad.
Oh, wow.
He actually got better.
He was awful.
I couldn't listen to him
before, you know, so it's just continuing
to show up.
And you.
If you show up every single
day and continue to come back, you're
already doing way more than a
lot of people.
Yeah, a lot of people do quit.
And that's why the
motivational inspirational speaker
will never go out of business,
because there's always going to be
someone who just needs a
little bit of extra boost and to
see, you know, athletes who
you admire, pilots you admire, or,
you know, other folks who
faced adversity.
And.
And I think people are really
surprised when you see someone who
succeeds at a high level that
they've had to face those things.
I think being open and
transparent, when you're asking,
like, when you find that
mentor, ask them like, hey, what
are times that you failed?
And you.
Yeah.
You know, how did you handle it?
Because everybody has that
experience in their life.
Absolutely.
Because everyone's gonna have.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's a determining factor,
for sure.
Yeah.
Last question.
What's next for you?
Kind of encompass everything
that you.
You've accomplished.
Like, if you just walked away
from it, you know you've had a good
career.
You can essentially do
whatever you want and look back and
be like, dang, I did that.
And not many people can say
that they have done or even touched
what you did, but it sounds
like you want more.
So talk a little bit about
what you're working on, what you're
doing, kind of goals and what
you're planning on.
Okay, thanks.
I.
I've been introduced a couple times.
I actually was just inducted
into the Wisconsin Aviation hall
of Fame.
Yeah, that's in October.
Yeah.
And it's exciting because I
know it's one of the 50 states, but
I mean, the home of the EAA.
And Billy Mitchell, who's the
father of the Air Force, is from
Wisconsin.
Lance Saijan, Richard Bong,
who was the number one ace of all
time in the United States, all
from Wisconsin.
So that's sick.
There were a lot of fighter
pilot aces too that were from my
home state here, so that was awesome.
But it's been interesting
being retired from the Air Force,
but it's given me a lot to be
able to kind of of explore in creativity
and I really enjoy
interactions with people.
I also have a podcast that I
just started.
We have four episodes out now,
and it's called All Fire, no Smoke.
And it's with me and another
pilot named Meryl Tangastal, who
was also known as the Dragon Lady.
Sick name.
Yeah, she was a YouTube pilot
and the YouTube is called the Dragon
lady.
And she's the first and only
black woman to.
To fly that.
So she flew up in space and
she started out in the Navy.
She flew helicopters.
What a badass.
Yeah, total badass.
She was on Tough As Nails, the
TV show too, at one point.
And so we kind of have her
experiences with the Navy and spy
plane and being in space.
Compared to me, who's like an
air to ground fighter and a low altitude
demo pilot, and we both have
families and how we kind of navigated
and I don't know, we laugh a lot.
She's hilarious.
So I wish I was as funny as
her, but she brings it up a notch,
so that's really fun.
And then I wrote a book about
my experience with my son when I
was on the Thunderbirds.
It's a kid's book though.
He wanted to fly with me and
he said, I want to go with you.
And I said, you can't.
He goes, but what if I turn
into a mouse?
Then I can like, hide in the cushion.
So the book is called
Thundermount and it's about a little
Boy who gets the help of a
mouse to sneak into mom's flight
bag when she goes to work.
And then Thundermouse like
sneaks out and like looks at all
the cross country flights and
all the air show demonstrations and
comes home at the end of a
trip and like crawls into the boys
room and whispers in his ear.
So he dreams about flying with
his mom when he's asleep at night
whispering to him.
So that's.
Yeah, it's been great.
It's really well received and
I self publish so it's growing all
the time.
And I just published a audiobook.
My website for it is
Thundermouse Shop where you can get
that.
And everyone's like okay, I
want a T shirt or I want a sweatshirt.
So I'm slowly adding those
items too.
So that's been really fun.
And then I have been doing
corporate speaking which is great.
Again going into a team that
maybe they're doing great but need
more motivation or helping
people kind of solve problems and
see themselves in a different
perspective through sharing some
of my experiences as a fighter
pilot and leadership and being a
part of some, you know, first
rate teams.
Yeah.
And possibly flying again.
Yes.
So I, being a single mom has
been really tough to fly.
That was part of the reason
that I ended up retiring when I hit
retirement eligibility.
So he just, just turned 16,
got a driver's license, gonna be
spending a little bit more
time with his dad who's a Delta pilot.
So I'm gonna go back and start
with tail wheel endorsement.
Oh, sweet.
You're doing it for fun then, huh?
Well, yeah, but I don't know,
I'm thinking about some other opportunities.
I won't throw any company
names out there, but yeah, I'm thinking
about now that I can have a
little bit more ability to, to be
gone and getting back into that.
But I, I really want to fly
the aircraft that the WASP flew.
So I'm a member of the
Minnesota Commemorative Air Force
and my friend Mickey, who's a
103 year old WASP, flew the B25.
It's her favorite plane and I.
So I want to hopefully get
checked out in that while I can still
ask her questions about it
because she remembers everything.
So I love it.
Yeah, it's so it'd be neat to
kind of represent those women modern
day flying the airplanes that
they flew and get to tell their story.
Stories.
Yeah, a lot of people don't
know them, so.
I'm an author and that's my
memoir I think is going to be about
my relationships with these women.
And it's funny.
We sit around, like, the
campfire, sit around, have a glass
of wine, and we're kind of
trading stories and things that happened
in 1942 happened to me in 2012.
So I think they're pretty amusing.
And there's a lot of
similarities, but it helps highlight
how wonderful and unique and
how groundbreaking they were.
Yeah, absolutely.
100%.
And it's just really cool to
see you be able to share those stories.
And like you said, the book
sounds great.
It sounds like a book my.
My kid would love
Thundermouse, so I might have to
check that out.
Yeah.
And I also love how you kind
of just briefly mentioned just how
crazy this industry is for
families, for kids.
I just recently started with
an airline.
I flew corporate before, and
just being junior can be really hard
on a family.
I always tell people, when
you're getting into this industry,
just find someone that really
understands it, because this is a
tough industry to be married
to someone in, and it's a tough industry
to raise a family in, so.
And single parenting is.
Yes, it's hard by itself, but absolutely.
And I have friends who have
done it and who do it, and, you know,
I just.
I know my son's gonna be
graduating from high school in two
and a half years, and I.
I have missed flying.
It's like my yoga.
It's my meditation.
So I'm looking forward to
getting back to it.
But I will never regret the.
The.
The kind of little hiatus that
I took to spend time with him.
So, yeah, I'm.
I know.
I'm happy for what's happened,
and I'm really excited about the
future.
Well, I'm excited for you, too.
It was a lot of fun having you on.
I really appreciate taking the
time with me.
And like you said, there's
many more podcasts I feel like we
could do, and we can just kind
of dive into just subjects about
it because the.
The way you share it, the way
you tell it, and what you've accomplished
is just really cool.
So thank you for coming on.
I really appreciate that.
Yeah, it was.
It was great to talk, so I
wish you the best of luck in everything
you do, and if I can ever help
out, let me know.
Thanks, Justin.
Likewise.
Yeah, anytime.
That's a wrap on today's episode.
Thank you so much for
listening to the podcast.
Like I said, share this, send
it to everyone.
If you want to be a Thunderbird.
This is the best episode for you.
If you know someone wants to
be a Thunderbird or just fly in the
Air Force.
Send on the podcast, you know,
without any questions.
Boom.
Listen to this.
It's great.
But AV Nation.
Hope you're having a great day.
And as always, happy flying.
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