Lessons from Kierkegaard: Accountability, Faith, & the Good Life with Dr. C. Stephen Evans

PJ is joined by philosopher and professor C. Stephen Evans. Together, they discuss the enduring influence of Søren Kierkegaard and why his writings still resonate today.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. C. Stephen Evans discuss the life and work of Søren Kierkegaard, focusing on Kierkegaard's reflections on the positive aspects of accountability in pursuing the good life and fostering deep community. PJ and Dr. Evans also explore Kierkegaard's work concerning God and why it appeals to philosophers who don't share his Christian worldview. 

For a deep dive into Dr. C. Stephen Evans' work, check out his books: Kierkegaard and Spirituality: 
Accountability as the Meaning of Human Existence 👉 https://amzn.to/3Ciss7Z 
Kierkegaard: An Introduction 👉 https://amzn.to/3HKSZfh

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: hello and welcome to chasing leviathan. I'm your host. P. ▁j. Weary and I'm here

[pj_wehry]: today with Doctor C Stephen Evans, Doctor C. Stephen Evans is University professor

[pj_wehry]: of philosophy and humanities and director of the Baylor Center for Christian

[pj_wehry]: Philosophy, and distinguished senior fellow in the Institute for Studies of

[pj_wehry]: Religion. He also holds appointments as a professor, a Professor Oriol fellow at

[pj_wehry]: the University of Saint Andrew's and at the Australian Catholic University. He was

[pj_wehry]: born in Atlanta, Georgia, and received his bachelor's degree from Wheaton

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: College in nineteen sixty nine, and his Phd from Yale University Philosophy in

[pj_wehry]: nineteen seventy Four. His most recent books are Why Christianity still makes

[pj_wehry]: sense, and God in Moral obligation, and most recently, and it sounds like you even

[pj_wehry]: have another book after this. Uh, that's coming out soon, But most recently the

[pj_wehry]: one would be talking about today, Cericgard in Spirituality, Accountability is the

[pj_wehry]: meaning of human existence, and so kind of the central question I want to ask you

[pj_wehry]: about today. Uh,

[Unknown]: ho

[pj_wehry]: Doctor Stephen, Um. Evans is, uh,

[Unknown]: the

[pj_wehry]: Why does focusing on the concept of accountability, especially in Cerkgard lead us

[pj_wehry]: to the good life? So first of all, let me say thank you. and uh, you

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: could give us just a little bit of your own background

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: into the and give us some insight And to what led you to pursue this question? Uh,

[pj_wehry]: into the and give us some insight And to what led you to pursue this question? Uh,

[pj_wehry]: we'd really appreciate it.

[pj_wehry]: we'd really appreciate it.

[Unknown]: it will thank thanks for that very nice introduction can can i make

[pj_wehry]: Sure.

[Unknown]: one small correction i must have sent an old old cv or something but

[Unknown]: i was at australian catholic university sit for six years but we have uh sort of

[Unknown]: parted ways and they've gone their way and i've gone my way but i'm actually

[Unknown]: replacing them i just found out today that i'm going to be getting a similar offer

[Unknown]: from noch dom university of australia in sydney so i'm still going to be going

[pj_wehry]: Well, congratulations.

[Unknown]: down to australia uh but not not not australian catholic but to another a sister

[Unknown]: institution there in in australia so thanks so uh your question again is why did i

[Unknown]: want to focus a book on kirk and and the the idea that we're accountable to god

[Unknown]: well i've worked on car for a very long time and uh it's always been clear to me

[Unknown]: that for kirker

[Unknown]: human life is to be lived before god corum deo and that he felt that was just one

[Unknown]: of the most important things he says at one point near the end of his life he says

[Unknown]: i've tried to live my life in such a way as to show

[pj_wehry]: Hm. Hm,

[Unknown]: that god is real

[Unknown]: he saw his whole life as a kind of you might say demonstration of god's reality

[Unknown]: interesting way to think of your life but um

[Unknown]: i'd been thinking about accountability

[Unknown]: quite a bit and normally in our culture the term accountability is used in a very

[Unknown]: negative way you know when a politician does something terrible or a doctor you

[Unknown]: know abuses a patient there's a big cry in the press we got to hold

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: this person accountable

[Unknown]: and that's often right and appropriate we do want to hold people accountable when

[Unknown]: they screw up and do bad things but as a result we tend to think of being

[Unknown]: accountable as a negative sort of thing

[Unknown]: you know we tend to think of accountability as something we want to avoid

[Unknown]: especially if we think of accountability primarily in

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: terms of punishment in terms of in fact sanctioning someone

[Unknown]: but the more i thought about accountability the more it struck me that partly what

[Unknown]: we have here when we

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: are punishing people is it's failures of accountability it isn't really

[Unknown]: accountability when people assume account when they accept accountability when they

[Unknown]: want to live accounta accountability not necessarily a negative thing at all and it

[Unknown]: struck me that

[Unknown]: being accountable to other people

[Unknown]: when those people are good people and they have my good well interests my best

[Unknown]: interest at heart is

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: not a negative thing at all

[Unknown]: because

[Unknown]: just think about if if i'm not accountable to anyone then that means no one really

[Unknown]: cares

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: about how what i'm doing or

[Unknown]: i live my life

[Unknown]: so i think it's really uh

[Unknown]: really important to think about accountability in a more positive vein as an

[Unknown]: ongoing really a virtue an excellence that a a human being could have people who

[Unknown]: who are willing to in a sense shoulder their responsibilities and when they owe an

[Unknown]: account to someone for what they've done and there always has i think

[Unknown]: accountability there there's sort of two parts of it part of it is what we're

[Unknown]: accountable for doing people hold us accountable for you know my department chair

[Unknown]: holds me accountable for how i teach or how i pub how much publishing i do

[Unknown]: but there's also accountability too the to an individual for what we

[Unknown]: what we do and so we have to ask about the standing of a person to whom we are

[Unknown]: accountable

[Unknown]: and also the domain of accountability but but when those things are done well it

[Unknown]: seemed to me that it's a kind of gift to be accountable when i am being accountable

[Unknown]: to my chair or be accountable to my wife

[Unknown]: makes me better i'm a better husband because i'm accountable to my wife i'm a

[Unknown]: better teacher because i'm

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: accountable to my department chair so if i have the right perspective on

[Unknown]: accountability accountability is a gift and i think for kerk that was eminently

[Unknown]: true for being

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: accountable to god

[Unknown]: because kirk goor he has a view that may maybe a lot of christians wouldn't

[Unknown]: wouldn't like

[Unknown]: but he thinks that god is completely loving

[Unknown]: uh and god doesn't want to punish anyone

[Unknown]: and so on on his view what we call god's punishments we should actually care court

[Unknown]: says we should think of it as medicine

[Unknown]: because god doesn't send any so to speak hardships our way

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: except for our good

[Unknown]: god is never so to speak getting even or trying to pay us back for the bad stuff

[Unknown]: we've done to him as if we could

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: harm him or hurt him ah so god is totally good he's totally loving and kirs if we

[Unknown]: really understood god and understood ourselves even what we might call god's

[Unknown]: discipline we would welcome because we would see that it was intended uh for our

[Unknown]: good so that struck me as a an anglo in

[Unknown]: really looked at

[Unknown]: and uh and so i decided to f focus the book on on on that

[pj_wehry]: Well, and that makes total sense. Even there's kind of a parallel phraseing by you

[pj_wehry]: said. if you're doing something that someone is not holding you accountable, for

[pj_wehry]: you know, the the phrase that left to my mind when you're talking about that is if

[pj_wehry]: you're not accountable for what you're doing, it's meaning lis. Which kind of fits

[pj_wehry]: that subtitle to your work. Right

[pj_wehry]: is meaning

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: meaningfulness comes from accountability that there is uh

[Unknown]: it it

[pj_wehry]: consequences to what you're doing if there are no consequences. It is in fact

[pj_wehry]: meaningless,

[Unknown]: there are consequences for what we do and they're also people who care about

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: us and those consequences and all of that makes

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: life m richer and more meaningful so there there's actually a there's an old golf

[Unknown]: joke that i love

[Unknown]: about a dutiful pastor who's been preaching faithfully every every sunday for years

[Unknown]: and years and years and one sunday he gets up and the weather is gorgeous and he

[Unknown]: just says i don't want to go in this sunday morning and preach i wanna play golf so

[Unknown]: he calls the church and lies and says he's sick he goes to the golf course first

[Unknown]: holy gets a birdie second holy gets a birdie third holy gets a hole in one

[Unknown]: and an angel is watching and says to god why you letting this guy get away with

[Unknown]: this he's having this fantastic round and he's lied and

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: he's shirking his duty and god god turns to the angel and

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: says who's he gonna tell

[pj_wehry]: like

[pj_wehry]: yeah. yeah, I mean it.

[Unknown]: if we don't have anybody to tell that our achievements don't mean as much when we

[Unknown]: can't in a sense share them with somebody who cares and that's what accountability

[Unknown]: i think is in part about someone who should care about you and and help help you in

[Unknown]: your in in whatever projects you're involved in

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, this story will get me in trouble, but I have to share it just because of of

[pj_wehry]: the nature of that joke. Uh, so my parents, uh, we actually live in a multi

[pj_wehry]: geninational house and my dad has gotten

[Unknown]: so

[pj_wehry]: one hole in one in his entire life, which you know not uncommon. right, uh, he's

[pj_wehry]: golfing with my mother.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: They're on a pa three and they're out in like the ninth hole.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Uh, No, No, like the fourth or fifth ho. So they're as far out as you can get, and

[pj_wehry]: she has to go to the bathroom and she goes out in the woods and my dad while he's

[pj_wehry]: waiting, hits

[Unknown]: wow

[pj_wehry]: and he gets a hole in one while she's going to the bathroom and he's celebrating.

[pj_wehry]: She didn't see.

[Unknown]: so she didn't skin

[pj_wehry]: He's like, Do you won't believe it? She's like I'm a little busy right now.

[pj_wehry]: Fortunately, there was a guy at the other tea box to confirm it be cause.

[pj_wehry]: Otherwise, like, I mean,

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, you

[pj_wehry]: have to have a witness and so

[Unknown]: right you gotta have a witness

[Unknown]: yeah i have only

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: one hole in one as well but i i i did have witnesses so

[pj_wehry]: yes, it's it's important, right and I think that's really. I mean that comes up in

[pj_wehry]: your in your work as well,

[pj_wehry]: one one of the thing. And you, you' mentioned a little bit about shouldering

[Unknown]: no

[pj_wehry]: responsibility. Um. there's a cluster of words here that are similar,

[pj_wehry]: Uh in meaning and I'm curious if you see any differences or you're comfortable

[pj_wehry]: with substituting them. Are there differences between authority responsibility and

[pj_wehry]: accountability? Um is their value in substituting those in particular places?

[Unknown]: yeah well i use the word authority as aa type of what i

[pj_wehry]: Okay,

[Unknown]: call standing so whenever whenever someone

[Unknown]: you might say has rightful expectations of me they they can

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: rightfully expect something from me i say that person has standing and there's all

[Unknown]: kinds of standings

[Unknown]: my

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: students have standing they don't have authority over me but they have standing

[Unknown]: they can they can they can ask me why do you teach this course the way you do or

[Unknown]: when do you assign this book why did you

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: grade my paper the way he did right you have a right to ask for an account and and

[Unknown]: i have to respect that and be willing

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: to answer to them in that way but i think authority is a

[pj_wehry]: okay,

[Unknown]: special type of standing in which someone has the power to so be given a command or

[Unknown]: an order now my students have standing to ask about why i do things the way i do

[Unknown]: but they don't have the authority to say you're no longer allowed to assign papers

[pj_wehry]: they have to go to someone with authority with that. Yes,

[Unknown]: or or give tests right

[Unknown]: that's right they they so authority is it's a special type of standing in which the

[Unknown]: person who has the standing can in a sense give you a kind of decisive reason to do

[Unknown]: something by making an order or a command and often authority is connected up with

[Unknown]: the power to

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: provide a sanction

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: you know of some kind of you know my my chair when i have to report to my chair of

[Unknown]: the annual report he can give me a rating and that my raise next year would depend

[Unknown]: on what kind of rating i get from my chair right so there's the possibility of the

[Unknown]: sanction because he has authority so standing and authority are connected standing

[Unknown]: authority is a type of standing but it's a special type of standing and i think

[Unknown]: it's important to see that accountability is much broader than just authority

[Unknown]: relationships you can have accountability in say a one two step group where there's

[Unknown]: mutual accountability friends can hold each other accountable uh you can have

[Unknown]: accountability in an egalitarian marriage without any kind of hierarchy or you know

[Unknown]: authority in in that uh in that sense so i think it's important to see that

[Unknown]: accountability is not linked only to authority but also to broader broader kinds of

[Unknown]: standing that we have visa v each other now

[Unknown]: you were asking about other what were

[pj_wehry]: the

[Unknown]: the other terms you wanted to to talk about besides

[pj_wehry]: I said, authority and responsibility and responsibility

[pj_wehry]: seems to fit, and a lot of use cases for

[Unknown]: responsibilities

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: accountability. I understand the authority has some.

[Unknown]: it

[pj_wehry]: very like. I could understand the distinction right away. I was curious if

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: responsibility of any

[pj_wehry]: distinction,

[Unknown]: it

[Unknown]: well i think responsibility and accountability can be used

[Unknown]: in very similar ways in even identical ways for example philosopher who died a

[Unknown]: couple years ago ronald dork and he has an interesting book called religion without

[Unknown]: god you've probably heard of him and and maybe

[pj_wehry]: I've heard of him. I haven't heard of the book. Yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah but he he uses he says that all of us human beings

[Unknown]: one of the features of someone who lives well is that they live in this responsible

[Unknown]: way and he uses the term responsibility in very similar ways to the way i use the

[Unknown]: term accountability

[Unknown]: but the reason that i when i started working on this i chose accountability rather

[Unknown]: than responsibility is that we often say that a person is responsible and we mean

[Unknown]: it's a very individual quality like i'm a very responsible person i take my duty

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: yeahm,

[Unknown]: seriously so on i wanted to emphasize the interpersonal character

[Unknown]: that we not we don't just have accountability for which would be like you might say

[Unknown]: responsibility for doing something but we are responsible to someone or accountable

[Unknown]: to someone and i thought that the the word accountability had a little more of that

[Unknown]: interpersonal flavor

[Unknown]: this sort of virtue that i talk about accountability

[Unknown]: there's a whole family of what i call relational virtues virtues get exercised in

[Unknown]: interpersonal relationships like gratitude

[Unknown]: forgiveness a willingness to forgive

[Unknown]: those our virtues i think

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: they've been studied and but they are virtues that so to speak

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: presupposed relationships and accountabilities like that it presupposes a

[Unknown]: relationship

[Unknown]: so um so that's the

[Unknown]: that's the the heart and soul of the matter so i think responsibility is close but

[Unknown]: i wanted

[Unknown]: i really wanted to emphasize i i think it's so important our culture

[Unknown]: is so focused on

[Unknown]: individualism i mean we're we're all about

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: about the individual

[Unknown]: and a lot of what we think about even philosophers when they write about

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: ethics it's all about autonomy you know when i'm doing what's right it's because i

[Unknown]: see that it's right and i'm doing it because it's right and it's all you know

[Unknown]: manual conce ethics starts with autonomy

[Unknown]: but it seems to me that

[Unknown]: ethics is all i i believe in autonomy in the sense i mean i think we we all do have

[Unknown]: to sort of be take accountability and seriously and individually as

[Unknown]: but

[Unknown]: we also i think need to recognize that it's not all about me

[Unknown]: and that one of the things that i can do and i can do it autonomously is recognized

[Unknown]: the rightful standing and claims that other people have

[Unknown]: over against me and be willing to i mean this goes back all the way to the ancients

[Unknown]: but

[Unknown]: it's really a species

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: of justice giving giving people what they do

[Unknown]: you know that's an old old

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: definition of justice that goes back to the greeks and and i think accountability

[Unknown]: is perhaps an aspect of what we might call justice understood as a personal virtue

[Unknown]: rather than simply say a social system we talk about a just society but plato and

[Unknown]: aristotle talk about

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: people as being just

[Unknown]: and i think that accountability is is one aspect of that justice as a personal

[Unknown]: quality

[pj_wehry]: yeah, I mean, there's an interesting note there. Um

[pj_wehry]: that what we owe to somebody is part of being just. Um. but Plato's problem with

[pj_wehry]: that and I think rightfully so is. if someone gives you a weapon for instance, and

[pj_wehry]: then asks for it back, but they're not in the right mind. You can't. You

[Unknown]: right

[pj_wehry]: don't give it back to him. That would not be just even though it is owed to them.

[pj_wehry]: But what?

[Unknown]: yeah you

[Unknown]: you need

[pj_wehry]: right?

[Unknown]: practical wisdom as well as justice

[pj_wehry]: but what's interesting about what you're talking about is that in relation to God,

[pj_wehry]: we never have that problem like God is never out of his out of his mind, right.

[Unknown]: so

[pj_wehry]: We never had like. Because

[Unknown]: when

[pj_wehry]: we're relating to an

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: absolute. even in the case of someone like Abraham, and Um spoiler alert for the

[pj_wehry]: audience. Iard, Argor has been uh, very influential my own life. My second son's

[pj_wehry]: name is, Uh, son. actually, uh, my poor wife is very patient with me, but uh, but

[pj_wehry]: I, as I look at that,

[Unknown]: and else

[pj_wehry]: Um,

[pj_wehry]: just that idea that uh, when you look at Abraham, even in terms of what most

[pj_wehry]: people at the time would have said is ridiculous sacrificing your son.

[pj_wehry]: It it was something that

[pj_wehry]: Uh

[pj_wehry]: was proper in relation because he was speaking and dealing with God.

[Unknown]: right and that that's a that's of course a a tough uh issue to oops a day

[pj_wehry]: Okay,

[Unknown]: almost lost you there

[Unknown]: i was trying to get rid of get rid of my background noises i was getting some

[pj_wehry]: no,

[Unknown]: emails coming in and they were dinging so i i just closed my email program but

[Unknown]: i think that

[Unknown]: in in many situations

[Unknown]: god as god really is would never ask you to do something bad or evil

[Unknown]: but of course there are people who

[Unknown]: have crazy ideas about god

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: god may not be crazy

[Unknown]: there are people out there who think god is asking him to do very bizarre and crazy

[Unknown]: and even evil things so

[Unknown]: there there are a whole host of problems i think

[Unknown]: when kir hu writes his book fair and trembling about the case of abraham's

[Unknown]: willingness to sacrifice isaac

[Unknown]: he puts it in the context that abraham has faith

[Unknown]: and as a person of a faith he believes that god is good

[Unknown]: and so the question is if you really think you know god and you think god is good

[Unknown]: and you're sure that god has asked you to do something then kurts you ought to do

[Unknown]: it but that doesn't of course mean that if my next door neighbor says hey i'm going

[Unknown]: to sacrifice my kid i'm not

[pj_wehry]: right, right,

[Unknown]: going to call nine one one because

[Unknown]: i think i think the god that i come to know uh i actually think one of the things

[Unknown]: that was going on in that story in genesis is that god was teaching ancient israel

[Unknown]: that unlike some of the tribes around them he would not require

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: child sacrifice not not

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: uncommon in the ancient world for gods to demand that and i think yahweh was in

[Unknown]: effect saying look i know you are devoted to me and you be willing to do whatever i

[Unknown]: ask

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: but i don't ask this this is not something

[Unknown]: that and later that becomes explicit in the in some of the prophets who say

[Unknown]: child sacrifice is just

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: anathema to god so i think if somebody comes to me and says god asked me to do that

[Unknown]: i would say not

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: the god i know

[pj_wehry]: right, right, and I think, Um, you know, and there is that interesting

[pj_wehry]: epistemological problem, Um.

[pj_wehry]: Where one there is the kind of objective truth that our culture know like knows to

[Unknown]: what

[pj_wehry]: be true,

[pj_wehry]: and sometimes it's not always true And it takes an individual who knows that their

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: right to go against common wisdom, but the O side as the person who thinks they're

[pj_wehry]: right and they're just crazy Right. And that the distinguishing line is very

[pj_wehry]: difficult. There. I re. Uh, probably not the best reference to make, but I

[pj_wehry]: remember. Uh, Woody Allen making a joke about how how did Abraham know right

[pj_wehry]: coming from his Jewish background is like well, had that particular pitch and

[pj_wehry]: timber that only God's voice can have, which of course is a joke like, Yeah, it's

[pj_wehry]: like Well, it sounds

[Unknown]: yeah right

[pj_wehry]: like God. and like. What does that mean? And it? it's a difficult question. and

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Um it. it's one of those things that where if we hold ourselves to the truth into

[pj_wehry]: accountability, Um,

[pj_wehry]: man it. it's It leaves us a. An interesting points where we, we do feel that need

[pj_wehry]: to

[pj_wehry]: critique what what is

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: around us right. We can't just always go with the prevailing wisdom, but uh it, we

[pj_wehry]: can lead us into dangerous, dangerous, uh

[pj_wehry]: situations.

[Unknown]: surely and and i think i think k's fear and trembling is very

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: often misunderstood because we do tend to get focused on the epistemological

[Unknown]: question here we sort of like say well if somebody says god told him to do x

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: how do they know was god

[Unknown]: how do they know because we're you know we are modern people and we're all into

[Unknown]: epistemology we're all interested in how do we know things and what's our evidence

[Unknown]: and what our reasons but interestingly in the book that keros about this he never

[Unknown]: once says anything about how

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: abraham knew it was god

[Unknown]: he just builds that into the frame of the story god spoke to abraham abraham knows

[Unknown]: it's god and then a different question arises suppose you did know really know it

[Unknown]: was god and god asked you to do something really hard would you do it

[Unknown]: and and i think the real target of the book is is this karger is writing the book

[Unknown]: to professed christians in christendom who say god has spoken to them not

[Unknown]: necessarily in the middle of the night in their bedroom but through the new

[pj_wehry]: yeah, right,

[Unknown]: testament through jesus of nazareth and and god has told them to do things like

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: love your enemies

[Unknown]: and and be willing to give give your money away

[Unknown]: and uh and identify with the poor and the oppressed and and categories that affect

[Unknown]: saying

[Unknown]: if you really live like that people are gonna think you're nuts would you be would

[Unknown]: you be willing to do that if god told you to do it

[Unknown]: even at the cost of people thinking you were maybe a a little odd or something

[Unknown]: and uh and and that's the bite uh because then you are in a sense being like

[Unknown]: abraham you are saying i'm going to trust god even though god is telling me to do

[Unknown]: something that my

[Unknown]: my peers would say that's that's n you don't you don't give your money away and you

[Unknown]: don't love your enemies you're supposed to do what uh

[Unknown]: one of her books brene brown says you know

[pj_wehry]: no, not familiar.

[Unknown]: who she is the texan she she's a quite a theologian she's a she's an episcopalian

[Unknown]: but she writes really great books and she says the way i was raised in texas

[Unknown]: we're supposed to do it unto them before they do it under you

[Unknown]: or at least as soon as they do

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[pj_wehry]: yeahm,

[Unknown]: so that's that's sort of common sense

[Unknown]: and and care is he's responding of course to hegel who thought that our moral life

[Unknown]: was basically a matter of recognizing

[Unknown]: the wisdom that's embodied in our culture and krig thought that's just defying

[Unknown]: culture you're making culture into your god and if god says you to do something

[Unknown]: that your culture doesn't go along with you you you'll never do it so

[Unknown]: so i think fear and trembling is a great book but it's a very

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: misunderstood book i'll just recommend if anybody among your listeners wants to uh

[Unknown]: to read fear and trembling i highly recommend the cambridge university press

[Unknown]: edition which is translated by sylvia walsh it's really a great translation and i

[Unknown]: have a long introduction to that edition as well that i think really helps see what

[Unknown]: helps people understand what's going on in the book because it's a book that on the

[Unknown]: surface is so easy and fun to read and and everybody likes to read it but i think

[Unknown]: at a deep level it's a really hard and difficult book to understand

[pj_wehry]: yeah, and that's something I appreciate about Uh, kik himself and I appreciate

[pj_wehry]: about your emphasis. even in accountability. Is that Um,

[pj_wehry]: there are pro. They. Obviously, you spend a good deal of your book dealing with

[pj_wehry]: how problematic Kikors uh, end attacks on Christen, demar. but before that uh,

[pj_wehry]: there is this um, real critique and this challenge And and I always appreciate

[pj_wehry]: philosophy that challenges me, Um, and thatd me to be a better person. And it's

[pj_wehry]: this idea that uh,

[pj_wehry]: isn't it amazing how we can rationalize our own comfort? And if you look at your

[pj_wehry]: life, and if every decision leads to your comfort,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, you know, whether as a human being or as a Christian,

[pj_wehry]: Perhaps you have.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Perhaps your rationalizations are really

[Unknown]: it

[pj_wehry]: self deception. Because if you're not willing to make the sacrifices you are call

[pj_wehry]: to,

[pj_wehry]: then you' really not participating in the the ethical good?

[Unknown]: yeah k kirker is really looking at his culture and he says these are people who say

[Unknown]: they're followers of christ that they would be willing to do anything to give up

[Unknown]: anything for the sake of christ but they've never given up anything

[Unknown]: and okay maybe maybe god doesn't ask you to give up everything but you could start

[Unknown]: by

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: giving up something

[Unknown]: and and that's that's really a powerful i do i do i i i'm saddened by the fact that

[Unknown]: at the very very end of his life i think kirk gore was lonely and ill he'd been

[Unknown]: kind of isolated from people and he was i think already suffering from the

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: illness that would kill him at a very young age and i think he he sort of does

[Unknown]: he becomes misogynistic he says bad things about women he becomes somewhat

[Unknown]: misanthropic

[Unknown]: but i don't think that's the real care cougar that you get in his main writing so

[Unknown]: those are just some things he says in the journals near the very end and also a

[Unknown]: couple of books one of which he never even published because i think he had second

[Unknown]: thoughts about them too but the way i would put it is what's right in kirks if

[Unknown]: you're really going to be a follower of christ you have to be someone who's willing

[Unknown]: to suffer with christ and and that that means that you know if your society or your

[Unknown]: friends or whatever you've you've got to be willing to to do that but then at the

[Unknown]: very end he slides over from

[Unknown]: a willingness to suffer if called upon to sort of embracing suffering as

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: a good in and of itself

[Unknown]: and i mean i'm sort of saddened on on his very near his death he was talking to one

[Unknown]: of his friends and he says god's purpose is to

[Unknown]: sort of make us so miserable that we'll be glad to lead this life and become angels

[Unknown]: well that that that just strikes me as a the wrong view of god and the wrong view

[Unknown]: of what god's redemption god doesn't want to kill our humanist he wants to redeem

[Unknown]: it and restore it and make it all that it could be and that does require kerr says

[Unknown]: the willingness

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: to deny ourselves

[Unknown]: but it should not pass over into massa

[Unknown]: or kind of embrace of or uh anyway i the very end of k's some stuff that i

[Unknown]: i i don't care for uh but uh it's uh

[pj_wehry]: right, yeah,

[Unknown]: you know people use that stuff too they're people who want to look at the end and

[Unknown]: say see this is where he was

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: headed all along and they used that as an excuse to write

[pj_wehry]: yes,

[Unknown]: off his earlier writings and i think that's a big mistake

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, which is the majority of his writings right? like, I mean, you're talking

[pj_wehry]: about a very small uh,

[Unknown]: oh yeah

[pj_wehry]: subsection of the end, right,

[Unknown]: ninety five percent yeah

[pj_wehry]: uh, and that's and you've already touched

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: on this. But if you could elaborate a little bit, you spend a lot of time your

[pj_wehry]: book, Defendingor's legacy. Why is that important? Why is his legacy so important

[pj_wehry]: for the church and even for the

[Unknown]: that

[pj_wehry]: culture at large,

[Unknown]: well i think kirker has

[Unknown]: a lot to say to a lot of different people you know one of the things that i find

[Unknown]: really interesting about kor is that although he is a deeply christian almost

[Unknown]: strident christian writer somehow he always manages to appeal to a

[pj_wehry]: Right?

[Unknown]: lot of non christians as well i mean for example krig is very popular in japan

[Unknown]: which is far from being a christian country

[pj_wehry]: I did not know that that was not where I thought you were going. That's

[pj_wehry]: interesting,

[Unknown]: he

[Unknown]: he was translated into japanese before he was translated into english

[Unknown]: and there there were there were rival japanese kargar societies by the time of like

[Unknown]: nineteen fifteen

[Unknown]: when people in north america had never even heard of kor

[Unknown]: and of course he influenced deeply writers

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: like camu and sart and heidegger who were very

[pj_wehry]: very, not christian. Yes,

[Unknown]: not christian at all

[Unknown]: yeah so but we might ask well why why does he have a lot to say and i think it's

[Unknown]: because he takes the human condition so seriously and writes about it in such

[Unknown]: honesty that even people who don't like his christian faith don't like his

[Unknown]: understanding of what you might say the answer is to the human problem they love

[Unknown]: the way he puts the problem

[Unknown]: and they they love the way he grasped the fact that becoming a human being becoming

[Unknown]: a person becoming a real self is not simply a matter of knowing a lot of stuff that

[Unknown]: it's a matter of being formed as a human being and that means being formed through

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: in your emotions it's learning to hope and love and fear in the right way about the

[Unknown]: right things

[Unknown]: um

[Unknown]: so uh koror in a way recognizes

[Unknown]: uh that reflection and knowledge and these things were all all good and important

[Unknown]: they aren't they aren't really crucial uh to becoming a self because you can know a

[Unknown]: lot and be a louse when it comes to being a human being you can be very smart

[Unknown]: knowledgeable you can be very objective and detached about a lot of things but he

[Unknown]: wants to teach us that we have to be willing to in a sense get involved

[Unknown]: play a role in our own lives ah this is what he calls becoming subjective

[Unknown]: and uh caring about the kind of life i live in a deep and passionate way and uh

[Unknown]: so that's that's part of the story that career has something to say about what it

[Unknown]: means to be a human being that even non christians

[Unknown]: but i think he also has a lot to say to to the church and to christians

[Unknown]: particularly

[Unknown]: in this theme that

[Unknown]: even if you are born to christian parents you don't become a christian

[Unknown]: automatically just by growing up in a particular culture or family

[Unknown]: christianity always represents a kind of

[Unknown]: appropriation that's personal and individual

[Unknown]: on your part and and that that's

[Unknown]: that requires the sort of subjectivity emotion uh

[Unknown]: we think of emotions

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: as just feelings you know that come and go care viewer thinks that a disciplined

[Unknown]: life

[Unknown]: is one shaped by what he calls passions and passions are something like

[Unknown]: emotions that you acquire and develop

[Unknown]: and that gives shape to your life as a whole

[Unknown]: so every everybody can anybody can fall in love but very few people really know

[Unknown]: what it means to love over many

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: many years

[Unknown]: who who uh who have love is a passion that really shapes their life so for him

[Unknown]: becoming a christian is a matter of acquiring passions love and hope and faith and

[Unknown]: we don't think enough about these qualities and what they mean we're all about

[Unknown]: beliefs and getting our doctrines right well who thinks doctrines are important too

[Unknown]: but he thinks that you can have all the right doctrines in your head and you could

[Unknown]: be you could you could be an expert theologian and and be spiritually

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: a duns

[Unknown]: you could be an in infantile in your in your spirituality so so that's that's a

[Unknown]: really important part of the of the book so uh and especially in our in our his

[Unknown]: message that we mustn't identify christianity with any cultural manifestation of it

[Unknown]: is so important because we have now so called

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: christian nationalism well that's a that's an heresy in my view

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: and career would say it's just an extreme version

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: of christian in which you simp identify being a christian and think that i'm a

[Unknown]: great good christian because i'm a citizen of you know the united states or if

[Unknown]: you're some other

[pj_wehry]: sure,

[Unknown]: country the other

[Unknown]: so uh he thinks it's always important if we're really christians and christ

[Unknown]: followers that we can be citizens and loyal but there's always a sense in which our

[Unknown]: first loyalty is always going to be to something higher and we must keep our

[Unknown]: critical distance from the from you might say

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: the cultural gods that that shape us and i think a lot of conservative christians

[Unknown]: have forgotten that

[Unknown]: in in our current situation so

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah to

[Unknown]: care relevant than ever

[pj_wehry]: Yes, I and I, I, definitely uh, as I was reading Uh, your book, I definitely felt.

[pj_wehry]: Uh,

[pj_wehry]: how easily the his critique of Christendom translated to Uh,

[pj_wehry]: contemporary American culture, So yeah, I. I. I highly recommend the book Uh, for

[pj_wehry]: any Christians who are who are interested in that kind of critique or non

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Christians were interested in that kind of critique. Um, which kind of leads me to

[pj_wehry]: my my next

[Unknown]: sh

[pj_wehry]: question. Uh, cause you dwell at length on the Socratic spirituality. Do you see a

[pj_wehry]: possible common

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: ground approach,

[pj_wehry]: Uh, with or through Socratic spirituality? Perhaps even a. A even a hint at

[pj_wehry]: universalism in

[Unknown]: he

[pj_wehry]: Kiror, where he's talking about. Um. You know what? like I, I think of Uh, Dantes

[pj_wehry]: Inferno, where Uh, the great

[pj_wehry]: Um figures of the past are in. Yeah, in uh, not Purgatory, Limbo, Because they,

[pj_wehry]: they have achieved some semblance of spirituality.

[Unknown]: well i i think y is always very cautious about making judgments about so to speak

[Unknown]: who is finally going to be in the kingdom of god and who is it

[Unknown]: and for example

[Unknown]: he uh i think he believes uh firmly that in the end uh anyone who comes to god will

[Unknown]: will be help there through the grace of god and through

[Unknown]: the redemption that christ offered in his life and death and resurrection but i

[Unknown]: think he's quite open to people who in this life don't find that somehow making a

[Unknown]: connection in in one of his books he's actually talking about europe and and he

[Unknown]: says you know we what we need today

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: is socrates socrates socrates and he says i well know that socrates was not a

[Unknown]: christian and then he has in perens though i'm convinced he has long since become

[Unknown]: one

[pj_wehry]: right, right.

[Unknown]: so i think he's open to what we might call postmortem evangelism

[pj_wehry]: interesting. Yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah as as was

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: css lewis you know in his uh in some of his writings so he's not alone in that

[Unknown]: thought

[Unknown]: but uh

[Unknown]: i i think uh

[Unknown]: anyway

[pj_wehry]: the

[Unknown]: k or

[Unknown]: says the right thing to do is to be

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[Unknown]: concerned about yourself and not be making judgments about where other people will

[Unknown]: be spending eternity

[Unknown]: but to be committed to to becoming a friend of god and a follower of god to

[Unknown]: becoming the person god wants you to be

[Unknown]: um

[pj_wehry]: do. Would

[Unknown]: so

[pj_wehry]: you say Um,

[pj_wehry]: if I? I just trying to clarify and follow what you' saying that he finds a lot of

[pj_wehry]: value. Obviously, find value what Socrates did and what he obviously

[Unknown]: we

[pj_wehry]: wants more of like Thecratic method, And he sees that kind of as a

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: method and as a model. Uh, even as we as um as Christians. I, I consider myself a

[pj_wehry]: devout Christian dealing with other peoplecognizing,

[pj_wehry]: and uh, affirming that kind of

[pj_wehry]: spirituality in

[pj_wehry]: people who have not experienced that personal relationship with Christ, but they

[pj_wehry]: have that

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: relation of the spirit. You know, you talk quite a bit. How spirit

[Unknown]: uh

[pj_wehry]: is a relation

[pj_wehry]: of oneself

[Unknown]: well

[pj_wehry]: in process to this absolute.

[pj_wehry]: Is that something that we can use to bridge gaps in our culture?

[Unknown]: i i think so i think there there's common ground in that we can uh we can

[Unknown]: with people who are you might say really focused on the question of what does it

[Unknown]: mean to exist as a human being how do i become the person i was meant to be those

[Unknown]: people can always have conversations in dialogue and koror think someone who is

[Unknown]: seriously focused on those questions can still have a life

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: that matters a life that has meaning even if in his view they haven't arrived at

[Unknown]: the end of their journey yet they haven't made it all the way

[Unknown]: and uh so in his book concluding on sy post script he has this concept what he

[Unknown]: calls religiousness a which is a kind of natural religiosity which doesn't

[Unknown]: presupposed

[Unknown]: knowing anything about the the bible or the incarnation or anything like that it's

[Unknown]: just a sort of an understanding of god that's possible to us just given our natural

[Unknown]: capacities that god has given us and he even tries to exemplify the spirituality i

[Unknown]: think of religiousness a in his early so called up building discourses or edifying

[Unknown]: discourses there are eighteen of these they're written fairly early in his career

[Unknown]: and it's very interesting when you read them you'll see that although he sticks

[Unknown]: bible verses on them he never uses what i would call distinctively christian

[Unknown]: concepts

[Unknown]: he never talks about the incarnation he never talks about the atonement he never

[Unknown]: talks about it's all about how can i acquire a richer sense of god and what god

[Unknown]: means to me and how do i live my life and he deals with things like how how should

[Unknown]: i deal with disappointment in my life how should i deal with suffering

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: it's all common ground there's no there's no attempt to presupposed anything like

[Unknown]: christianity now why does he do that partly it's because he thinks that

[Unknown]: people who even have this sort of religiosity are better off than people who may

[Unknown]: know a lot of christian concepts or theology but who've never actually put them

[Unknown]: into their lives in a real way

[Unknown]: these people are who have the socratic spirituality as i call it in the book they

[Unknown]: are at least striving to exist in a really important and meaningful way and kars

[Unknown]: that's first of all valuable in itself

[Unknown]: but secondly he thinks that those are the kinds of people who may be on the road to

[Unknown]: becoming christians in the real sense not just nominal christians who compare at

[Unknown]: the doctrines and feel

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: superior to other people

[Unknown]: because they

[Unknown]: can't

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[pj_wehry]: and

[Unknown]: right but he thinks that that

[Unknown]: if you don't have you might say those kinds of well formed just use a good example

[Unknown]: christianity teaches that human beings are sinners and that we need redemption well

[Unknown]: you can sort of understand that as a proposition and spout it back but what does it

[Unknown]: really mean to understand

[pj_wehry]: hm

[Unknown]: yourself as guilty

[Unknown]: you have to really struggle with your own life and what you've done and think hard

[Unknown]: about that and of course we human beings instead of struggling with our guilt we're

[Unknown]: better off at

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: rationalizing away making excuses

[Unknown]: right so

[Unknown]: kier thinks that something like at least the what we might call the moral formation

[Unknown]: and the emotions that are characteristic of this natural religiousness they are in

[Unknown]: a way a prerequisite for even understanding christian faith much less becoming a

[Unknown]: christian

[Unknown]: so they're important in their own right but they're also important as providing you

[Unknown]: might say the the precondition for really understanding the gospel in a real way

[pj_wehry]: Yeah. And and I think there's something you know. Uh. one. One of the reasons I

[pj_wehry]: think Kikgor is so popular is because his emphasis on uh, embodied

[pj_wehry]: um truth, this subjective truth, and uh. I also, I mean he's just uh, an enjoyable

[pj_wehry]: writer, which also helps um. Yes,

[Unknown]: he's very funny too

[pj_wehry]: Well, and this is the. so. I want to ask you if you.

[Unknown]: not every philosopher is funny

[pj_wehry]: No, No, this is true. not everyone is enjoyable to read. Um, so I can you tell me

[pj_wehry]: a little bit more about Uh, the metaphor of and I, I've heard different differing

[pj_wehry]: versions of this. I've not read this inor. But I've heard Kevin van, uh, Doctor

[pj_wehry]: Kim Thenn, who's her, mentioned a version and I have heard you mention a version

[pj_wehry]: of kind of the lover sending letters, or the King sending letters, Um, as a way of

[pj_wehry]: interpreting Scripture and understanding, kind of this embodied approach versus

[pj_wehry]: this propositional approach, And I, I think in some ways this touches on what you'

[pj_wehry]: just talking about. that. The person who might not fully understand everything is

[pj_wehry]: still embodying the truth more than the person who understands letters and doesn't

[pj_wehry]: follow through, so keep tell me a little bit more about that

[pj_wehry]: metaphor.

[Unknown]: yeah

[Unknown]: yeah there that that's probably they're probably thinking about an essay that

[Unknown]: career has late in his career that's called

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: the mirror of the word

[Unknown]: and it's really an essay about why does it mean what does it mean to read the bible

[Unknown]: to

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: for the right reasons not as a scholarly thing because you're pre paid to do that

[Unknown]: as a professor but what does it mean to read the the scriptures ah as a mirror so

[Unknown]: that you can learn who you are and and what you should be and he does use this

[Unknown]: analogy he says imagine someone who's deeply in love

[Unknown]: and

[Unknown]: they are they're separated from their lover and the lover sends let's say imagine

[Unknown]: he's a guy and he gets a letter from his the woman he's in love with

[Unknown]: but she speaks a foreign language so she writes this letter in a foreign language

[pj_wehry]: yeah, yeah,

[Unknown]: he doesn't speak that language

[Unknown]: so he has to sit down and get a grammar book and get a a dictionary and he toils

[Unknown]: and toils at translating that and somebody can come in and say are you reading your

[Unknown]: lover's letter and he says no no i'm not reading the letter now i'm just working

[Unknown]: i'm doing all this confounded work it's what i have to do in order to read the

[Unknown]: letter but when ily get the translation i'm gonna lock the door i'm gonna go i'll

[Unknown]: be alone and i'm gonna read this letter and i'm going to pour on every word and if

[Unknown]: there's a request if i think she's asking me to do something

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: i'm gonna do it

[Unknown]: i'm not i'm not going to uh spend a lot of time exige the request

[Unknown]: if i understand it i'm gonna do it right away and and krig thinks that's the way a

[Unknown]: christian should read the bible as if god has sent them a love letter now it's true

[Unknown]: we have to have commentaries we have to have people who can translate the bible was

[Unknown]: not written in english or swedish or you know these other like

[Unknown]: but that's all

[pj_wehry]: mm,

[Unknown]: just preliminaries

[Unknown]: to reading the word of god as the word of god and when you read the word of god

[Unknown]: suppose you find something you don't understand okay don't worry about that kirker

[Unknown]: would say what about the part you do understand are you living in

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: accordance with that

[Unknown]: w when it says

[Unknown]: you know uh

[Unknown]: i should be willing to love my enemies is that hard to understand

[Unknown]: what part what part of enemy don't i understand you know uh so he thinks that's

[Unknown]: really really important

[Unknown]: and that he thinks that we can

[Unknown]: at times

[Unknown]: use scholarship as a kind of defense mechanism

[Unknown]: instead of hearing god speak to us and responding to what god wants us to do we say

[Unknown]: oh my gosh this is so difficult to understand i need to read ten commentaries and

[Unknown]: there are all these different opinions who knows what the right thing the

[Unknown]: interpretation is

[Unknown]: and and kor just wants to cut cut through all that and say okay we'll leave that

[Unknown]: part aside if you don't understand it focus on what you do understand and he thinks

[Unknown]: there's plenty

[Unknown]: there for all of us the problem is not that it's so hard for us to understand it's

[Unknown]: so hard for us to do it

[pj_wehry]: right, right.

[Unknown]: to in accordance with it

[Unknown]: so that's that's an interesting and important part of his later writings that i

[pj_wehry]: and I think this is true for both scripture and philosophy. I think it's true for

[Unknown]: like a lot

[pj_wehry]: life, and one of the reasons I've always found him personally very challenging, is

[pj_wehry]: that there's a fundamental difference

[pj_wehry]: between reading

[pj_wehry]: Um, so that you can please the your your lover, or so that you can defend yourself

[pj_wehry]: to your lover.

[pj_wehry]: And so the difference.

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: Sorry if I could,

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: just the the difference in this seems to be,

[Unknown]: don't help

[pj_wehry]: you know, like uh, if I read this and they as me to do something. If I, all I'm

[pj_wehry]: concerned about is the defense and my own comfort. I'm going to find the

[pj_wehry]: interpretation that allows me to just be what's most comfortable versus what

[pj_wehry]: actually satisfies what my lover has asked of me, and that's a fundamental and

[pj_wehry]: important

[Unknown]: yeah exactly

[pj_wehry]: difference. And that's how we should read just about everything in life. Right We,

[pj_wehry]: we need to find what is right, not what is not what allows me to live the life

[pj_wehry]: that I want to live.

[Unknown]: no

[Unknown]: exactly and and there there are many interpretations of that sort i mean take take

[Unknown]: what jesus says uh

[Unknown]: you know

[Unknown]: he has the parable of the

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[Unknown]: the sheep and the goats and he says you know you will divide them up and if you

[Unknown]: welcomed

[Unknown]: someone

[Unknown]: a you know a poor person you were welcoming me

[Unknown]: and i've read commentaries that say oh

[Unknown]: here the bible is talking about the willingness of nations to welcome the

[Unknown]: israelites who are jesus brothers

[Unknown]: well that lets me off the hook

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, no, it, that is so convenient and I think that's often the very suspicious

[pj_wehry]: phrase I find myself saying when I hear a lot of stuff like that. A lot of

[pj_wehry]: interpretations of philosophy and stuff like Wow, isn't that convenient that it

[pj_wehry]: leaves you not accountable,

[Unknown]: yeah

[Unknown]: yeah and and sometimes the interpretations make

[Unknown]: make the scriptures into nonsense you know there's a passage in the new testament

[Unknown]: where jesus says

[Unknown]: if you want to be my follower you must be willing to hate your own father and

[Unknown]: mother i don't hear many sermons on that by the way

[pj_wehry]: not not. people are not a fan.

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah that that's not a good one for mother's day or father's day

[Unknown]: a good text

[Unknown]: and and one can see of course

[Unknown]: nobody thinks that jesus thinks that we literally should hate our parents but what

[Unknown]: does he mean well some exegete and k who are comments on this say well he just

[Unknown]: means that we should sort of be indifferent to our parents not really hate them

[Unknown]: but that

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: seems terrible you know if i really don't care at all about my parents then then

[Unknown]: loving god more than my parents would mean nothing cause

[Unknown]: so that that would be a a very poor kind of thing and i what i think is really

[Unknown]: going on in the passage is jesus is saying you may have a situation

[Unknown]: where your parents demand something of you

[Unknown]: which would require you to be unfaithful to me and if you were faithful to me in

[Unknown]: that situation your parents may see you as not loving them they may see

[pj_wehry]: hm.

[Unknown]: perceive you as hating them even though of course you don't hate them you love them

[Unknown]: um

[Unknown]: and

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: but but that's the test

[Unknown]: but that notice of that situation if you don't really love your parents then give

[Unknown]: sacrificing that would mean nothing

[Unknown]: you'd you'd be happy to blow them off right

[pj_wehry]: if you're indifferent to them, Yes,

[pj_wehry]: there is no sacrifice.

[Unknown]: yeah so anyway many many

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: examples of that sort of thing but kor uh ker thinks that it's really vital that we

[Unknown]: try to read in a way that is edifying for us that that builds us up that uh

[Unknown]: he's not alone here of course augustin says the the best permutable principle is if

[Unknown]: you read a passage in such a way that it increases your charity that then you're

[Unknown]: reading it well

[Unknown]: you're interpreting it well uh if you interpret it in such a way that it allows you

[Unknown]: to be indifferent to your neighbor you're not interpreting it well

[pj_wehry]: which is a great place to start. Yeah, uh, and that, that's why he has uh, been a

[pj_wehry]: a blessing to Christianity for so long. It is wisdom like that.

[Unknown]: what

[pj_wehry]: You know,

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: I want to be Um,

[pj_wehry]: respectful of your time, but uh, one last question before we kind of just hi, uh,

[pj_wehry]: like a summary and wrap up

[pj_wehry]: Kirkgard's focus on the individual, Need a correction or a corrective, And if so,

[pj_wehry]: what would that correct be?

[Unknown]: well i think he has he has this view that god

[Unknown]: god is sort of like a patient educator

[Unknown]: who takes us where we are and and moves us further

[Unknown]: and so he thinks that when we're at the beginning of our spiritual journey

[Unknown]: if we if we saw or understood what was going to eventually be required of us we

[Unknown]: would not be able to do it we would we would turn away we would be dismayed we'd

[Unknown]: we'd despair we'd give up

[Unknown]: and so he thinks that

[Unknown]: like like a good educator god sort of gives us

[pj_wehry]: Hm?

[Unknown]: the task in little bits just as much as we can handle at the time

[Unknown]: but always pushing us onward and and

[Unknown]: and further as

[Unknown]: as in the last bible of the narnia

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: books uh onward and higher you know yeah but but still uh so a corrective is sort

[Unknown]: of like okay

[Unknown]: but you haven't made it yet here

[Unknown]: you you have a ways to go the the goal posts are are being are being uh stretched

[Unknown]: and and we have to sort of be patient with ourselves and understand

[Unknown]: god's

[Unknown]: ultimately

[Unknown]: kirk would say and this is really an important part of his whole view

[Unknown]: that the christian life

[Unknown]: has a kind of duplex

[pj_wehry]: hm, hm,

[Unknown]: it has a kind of doubles in that on the one hand god demands everything of us and

[Unknown]: from us but on the other hand he gives us everything

[Unknown]: and so

[Unknown]: i call it the dialectic of

[Unknown]: uh

[Unknown]: following in great care talks about we have to be disciples we have to be followers

[Unknown]: but when we follow christ when we take him as our model

[Unknown]: we inevitably fail uh we can't measure up and so then we need christ as the

[Unknown]: redeemer as the one who atone for our sins we have to realize that

[Unknown]: when we've done everything we can do it's all grace

[Unknown]: we don't

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: earn anything

[Unknown]: and all of our striving is just gratitude an expression of gratitude for

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: god's incredible grace

[Unknown]: so uh

[Unknown]: if you if you have just one side of that if you have just the grace without the

[Unknown]: striving then you have an indulgent kind of

[Unknown]: bourgeois religiosity

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: but if you have just the striving without the grace without the forgiveness then

[Unknown]: you have a kind of inhuman religiosity or and even an anti human and there are

[Unknown]: people who accuse kure who being an anti humanist i think that's completely wrong i

[Unknown]: think he is a i think he is a kind of christian humanist but i think he does think

[Unknown]: that our sense of what it is to be a full human being has to be educated we have to

[Unknown]: we have to learn from god what what it would be what what it is uh

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: so so that those are two things that i would that i would say are very very deep

[Unknown]: and important in kerk and both strands are there

[pj_wehry]: right,

[Unknown]: until the very end and then i think he goes off the deep end

[Unknown]: until the very end and then i think he goes off the deep end

[pj_wehry]: right, which I mean, when you look at failing health and feeling finances, those

[pj_wehry]: are never a full excuse, but they are, they are considerations.

[Unknown]: yeah and lo and loneliness being just look at the pandemic being lonely and is a

[Unknown]: terrible thing for people's mental health

[pj_wehry]: Yeah, no, this is very true. Yes,

[Unknown]: and gg is all you know people have the stereotype of him as the the

[pj_wehry]: you right, right,

[Unknown]: the melancholy dane you know the the gloomy but actually his contemporaries if you

[Unknown]: if you read what they said about him they they said he was very funny wonderful

[Unknown]: conversationalist and he loved for most of his life he loved to be around people in

[Unknown]: fact his recreation was taking what he called a people bath he would go out on the

[Unknown]: street and walk sometimes for hours

[Unknown]: stopping to talk with almost any one he saw

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: including poor people people who weren't educated

[Unknown]: and engaging people in conversation

[Unknown]: he actually took flack for this people called him a

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: quote class trader because he was hobnobbing with poor people not educated rich

[Unknown]: people like he himself was until he spent all his money

[Unknown]: everyone went went through it but but but for most of his life he w he was a person

[Unknown]: who really

[Unknown]: loved being with people

[Unknown]: i think he did have trouble making

[pj_wehry]: Hm.

[Unknown]: close friends at having close friends but he he loved having and he was a he was a

[Unknown]: wonderful uncle to his nephews and

[Unknown]: nieces but

[Unknown]: at the very end of his life i think ah his loneliness his isolation his ill health

[Unknown]: and the pain he was suffering did it it sort of got to him

[Unknown]: and he he loses some of his uh he says things in the last year of his life that i

[Unknown]: know he would never have said eight seven years before that five years before that

[pj_wehry]: It seems completely antiathatical to everything had written beforehand. I mean,

[pj_wehry]: you talk about

[pj_wehry]: his varization of the the Apostles, followed by his, in some ways like

[pj_wehry]: condemnation of the apostles in in those last few years of his life, which is just

[pj_wehry]: odd,

[Unknown]: yeah he says it yeah early on he has this wonderful book called the essay but the

[Unknown]: difference

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: between a genius and an apostle where he says look if you think someone's an

[Unknown]: apostle you should believe what they say

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: because they say it because they're speaking for god you don't leave paul because

[Unknown]: you think paul is really smart or that he was well educated you believe him because

[Unknown]: you think he was an apostle and you listen to him so he has this very high view of

[Unknown]: apostolic authority but at the very end of his life he's commenting on the book of

[Unknown]: acts and when peter preaches and they says that three thousand people

[pj_wehry]: right.

[Unknown]: were added the church he says oh my gosh he was letting down the the standards

[Unknown]: already three thousand that's way too many they couldn't

[pj_wehry]: it's such. it's such a strange thing to see, and I think it's a warning to all all

[pj_wehry]: of us that um about perseverance, Um, even in the face of

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: very difficult things, Um,

[Unknown]: i i do take comfort that even on his death bed one of his

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[Unknown]: childhood friends was a priest

[Unknown]: and his who came to visit him and and he asked k where he said sir and he said look

[Unknown]: what what's your what's your hope you know what do you hope uh do you still hope

[Unknown]: and trust in jesus and he says unquestionably you know my my life and my my soul

[Unknown]: and my everything is centered on my trust that jesus

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: has redeemed me and that's that's the heart of it all so i don't think he ever lost

[Unknown]: the heart of his faith he just had i think

[Unknown]: a poor understanding of

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: some of the implications at the at the very end but he never he never lost the core

[Unknown]: of his of his faith

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: there's some very unfortunate things that happened you know he and his brother

[Unknown]: didn't get along at all

[Unknown]: and uh when you read what kirker says about love in works his

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: book great book works of love and then read how really how mean he was to his

[Unknown]: brother on his death bet he wouldn't allow his brother to come see him

[Unknown]: now granted he had grounds for being angry with his brother his brother had

[Unknown]: publicly written an essay saying my brother is crazy and we should all put him in

[Unknown]: an asylum for his own good

[pj_wehry]: that would be the kind of thing would create some estrangement. Yes, that makes

[pj_wehry]: sense,

[Unknown]: yeah

[Unknown]: so you can see why why he was angry with his brother but uh

[Unknown]: but he let the anger get to him and he should have been willing to to forgive his

[Unknown]: brother and and let his brother come and see him it was a it was a it was not a

[Unknown]: good thing to do it

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: wasn't a loving thing to do uh

[Unknown]: so uh it's painful to see but of course he wasn't a perfect person none of us are

[pj_wehry]: right, Right and I think that's a very important lesson from this as well, All

[pj_wehry]: right

[pj_wehry]: and yeah, absolutely, and I, I think that's

[pj_wehry]: uh, uh, both an encouragement and and a warning about arrogance and about

[pj_wehry]: humility.

[pj_wehry]: But just as we wrap up here, if there

[Unknown]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: is one thing that you could leave with our listeners today, Uh, from your book

[pj_wehry]: here, if there is one lesson or one, Uh, thought that you could leave with our

[pj_wehry]: listeners, What would

[Unknown]: y

[pj_wehry]: it be?

[Unknown]: well here's one just sort of thing you know a correction uh of the

[pj_wehry]: Mhm,

[Unknown]: popular image of kargar i go around i talk about

[Unknown]: the only way you can believe in god is to take an irrational blind leap of faith

[Unknown]: belief in god is a sort of irrational blind leap kumu says that and sart thinks

[Unknown]: that and lots of people think that and it's sort of part of the common law but

[Unknown]: actually that's completely false kerk thinks that

[Unknown]: it doesn't take a leap to believe in god he thinks it only takes moral seriousness

[Unknown]: and a kind of willingness to think

[pj_wehry]: Hm, Hm,

[Unknown]: hard about your own life

[Unknown]: he doesn't think in fact that you need any proof of god he thinks the whole idea of

[Unknown]: proving god's existence is a huge mistake because

[Unknown]: really god's reality should be out if we if we don't know there's a god it shows

[Unknown]: there's something wrong with us

[Unknown]: there's a deficiency in our lives he's sort of hard nosed about this he actually

[Unknown]: says in one place there's never been an atheist just people who are unwilling to

[Unknown]: allow what they know gain power over their lives

[pj_wehry]: which is in many ways appropriating Romans One, right from Paul. Yeah,

[Unknown]: yeah he's sort of saying that in in a deep level at some level we all know that

[Unknown]: there's a god so that's partly why he rejects the idea of proving god's existence

[Unknown]: why why should you prove something that you already know so that's one thing i

[Unknown]: would just correct that picture

[Unknown]: now he does say that faith in christ requires a leap that's because christ calls

[Unknown]: and demands us to believe something that we would never have figured out on our own

[Unknown]: that

[pj_wehry]: Hm, right,

[Unknown]: god became a human being

[Unknown]: and secondly

[Unknown]: ask us to live in a way that human common sense can't understand and thinks is

[Unknown]: crazy because we basically follow what the economists call rational choice theory

[Unknown]: we're all we're all egoist right we think it's a matter of figuring out how to

[Unknown]: successfully get what i want

[Unknown]: but kirker thinks that what christianity demands is a willingness to sacrifice to

[Unknown]: spend oneself to to die to self and that doesn't

[pj_wehry]: Hm,

[Unknown]: seem rational at all

[pj_wehry]: you, right, right,

[Unknown]: to rational choice theories

[Unknown]: so when kier talks about christianity as absurd or is an offense to reason

[Unknown]: he doesn't mean that it's irrational in the sense that it's contrary to facts that

[Unknown]: we all know to be true or that it's contradictory or anything like that he means

[Unknown]: that the route the road to becoming a christian is not simply through

[Unknown]: thinking and reasoning but it's this hard road that we have to travel of the road

[Unknown]: of becoming a person in the true sense and god is there

[Unknown]: at our hand when we undertake that that

[Unknown]: there's some other people who

[pj_wehry]: H.

[Unknown]: see this but anyway i i try to spend a lot of time correcting

[Unknown]: it's kind of funny thing everybody not everybody but a lot of people think they

[Unknown]: know something about kerk and and really the popular sort of

[pj_wehry]: Yeah,

[Unknown]: stories are mostly myths uh

[Unknown]: so they just they just don't get it right i'll tell you one one more myth and i've

[Unknown]: heard i've heard this in sermons from pastors

[Unknown]: passers who who think they've read kerk goor and know something about him and

[Unknown]: they'll say they're preaching a sermon on doubt and they'll say you know some of

[Unknown]: you may have doubts and you may worry about your doubts you may you may feel guilty

[Unknown]: about your doubts but really you shouldn't be because krig has taught us that doubt

[Unknown]: is a part of faith and the doubt is a good thing

[Unknown]: and actually that is not true

[Unknown]: good does not say

[pj_wehry]: yeah,

[Unknown]: that doubt is a good thing

[Unknown]: he says faith and doubt are opposite passions

[Unknown]: and what is true and i think this is where the confusion comes karger thinks we're

[Unknown]: all finite fallible human beings

[Unknown]: and uncertainty is a part of the human cognitive condition

[Unknown]: we're often uncertain

[pj_wehry]: hm,

[Unknown]: and faith and doubt turn out to be responses to

[Unknown]: uncertainty

[Unknown]: faith is a commitment and doubt is a refusal of a commitment

[Unknown]: so don't think that care thinks that doubt is a part of faith faith is a way of

[Unknown]: conquering doubt

[Unknown]: it's a way of resolving a dealing with uncertainty

[Unknown]: so

[Unknown]: anyway i think those are important things to to know about about k he has a lot to

[pj_wehry]: absolutely, yeah, absolutely thank you and that's a a wonderful way I think to to

[Unknown]: say about those things

[pj_wehry]: sum this up,

[pj_wehry]: doctor. uh, C. Steveen Evans, thank you so much coming on to our listeners. If you

[pj_wehry]: uh,

[pj_wehry]: appreciate the depth of conversation or learn something new, please lecure and

[pj_wehry]: subscribe to someone else can to. um. but uh, just again, thank you so much And it

[pj_wehry]: was a real pleasure having you one.

[Unknown]: well thank you for having me and i hope a lot of your listeners will pick up kerk

[Unknown]: and spirituality

[Unknown]: and and read more about care who i think my book would actually be a good

[Unknown]: introduction to kirk's called an introduction

[pj_wehry]: I would agree.

[pj_wehry]: Oh, there you go. Well, link that one too. They can make their choice, but are

[pj_wehry]: really appreci it

[Unknown]: yeah yeah well okay well thanks for having me

[pj_wehry]: awesome.

[Unknown]: it's been fun i've enjoyed it

[Unknown]: alright