Caro C
Hello and welcome to the Sound On Sound podcast about electronic music and all things synth. I'm Caro C and in this episode I'm talking with Jlin, an electronic music artist who is accruing great acclaim. Though she started out being inspired by the Chicago footwork style, her music is now more abstract, less definable, yet highly precise.
She was awarded the prestigious Pulitzer Prize in 2023 and has now collaborated with the likes of Björk, Philip Glass and the Kronos Quartet. Her latest album, Akoma, was recently released on Planet Moo, and has been taking the electronic music world by storm with its intricate, post rave, percussion driven world. So, a taste of Jlin's music to get us started. This is an extract from a track on Akoma that features Philip Glass, called The Precision of Infinity.
Hello Jlin and welcome to the Sound On Sound Electronic Music podcast.
Jlin
Thank-you. Thank-you for having me.
Caro C
I'm particularly excited to unpack your sound and I wondered if you could start with giving us a bit of a whatever, potted history, highlights, whatever feels right, right now in terms of your journey so far and how you've come to the point where you are collaborating with the likes of Philip Glass, Kronos Quartet, Björk.
Jlin
Well, I think like right now where I'm at, I mean, it's been been quite the journey since Dark Energy all the way into Akoma and then the projects in between those three. The first album, Dark Energy, that I ever made, that I put out, was actually made with no equipment whatsoever. It was just my laptop and the sounds that I had from, like, from the sound libraries that I had and so I made my album that way and then I didn't get equipment until Black Origami and then I, so my setup is I have two Genelec 8020s on my monitors. I use the, I still use the complete Audio 6, the first, the MK1, basically and I use the, interface wise, and then I use, I have my, I have the MPC1 now as well and then performance wise, I use, I perform through Ableton. So, and then creating wise, writing wise, composition wise I use FL Studios.
Caro C
Ah, cool. And have you always used FL and you've stuck with it or is that something that's come to you and drawn you in?
Jlin
No, I've used FL since version four and I stuck with it. So it's, like we're in version 21 now.
Caro C
So how has that evolved as you've evolved, if you know what I mean?
Jlin
I feel like, well, like anybody when you first start out, you know, you sound awful because you don't know really what to do. But I think, I guess as time went on I, you know, I stuck with it. It started off as a love, hate relationship with me and it felt like it was like I hated it because I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do, but then I loved it. I couldn't give it up because I was making advances and I was, you know, I didn't realize I was actually developing, you know, my sound and all of this was crucial for my journey, which I would learn later.
Caro C
And how did that impact on your sound or maybe the difference between live and studio once you then started to work with Ableton for live performance?
Jlin
Well, just performance itself is, it's another thing for me that I, writing is my favorite. Like, I love to sit and compose a piece. Like, I love writing. So, performance is really and I'm almost scared to say it, but I, it's not, I love to see that the smiles that it leaves on everybody else's face, but it's not something that I would have to do, like that I, it's not like my first go to. For sure. Yeah.
Caro C
So in your sanctuary, so sort of sculpting your sound, that's your happy place.
Jlin
Yeah, that's my happy place. But I love sharing and you know, like I said, like doing it for like, I don't get me wrong. Like once I get up there, you know, I have, and I'm looking around at, you know, the people and it's a very vulnerable space because they don't know what I'm going to do. And you know, I don't know how they'll react. So, but when I get into, especially if I'm in the space when I'm performing where I am enjoying my set, that's a good feel for me.
Caro C
Yeah. What would you say you do perform, what are you performing, within your music, within your compositions, what is it you're performing?
Jlin
Oh, everything.
Caro C
That makes sense. Right.
Jlin
New things, unreleased things. I love, I love performing unreleased things. That's probably my favorite. When, if I'm going to, if I'm going to play something, I love to play something that nobody's heard. Something that's not out. Like, yeah.
Caro C
So what do you start with? Like for me, for example, I start with, it's almost like Lego building blocks, bricks, they're all there as clips in Ableton and then I might do some live sampling or I will do some live sampling, I might have some found sounds, I might do some effects, all that kind of thing.
Jlin
It depends. I mean, I never, I mean, it just depends on what the, you know, what mood I'm in, like what I rehearsed when I was in, when I was at, you know, in my studio at home, like it's never, like, I don't, I never know. It's just the performance part is just like the composition part for me. I never know what I'm going to do until I do it. So it's like, I don't know, like, and I know a lot of times it's like, that's not, that's not a, you know, an acceptable answer, but it really is. I don't know. So it, I do know, but one thing I do know is I know my music well enough to know that I'm comfortable enough to do that though.
Caro C
Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's composition in performance. I think I enjoy that because then you're, you've got two different worlds. It's not like you're just pressing play as, obviously I'm being, I'm oversimplifying it. You're not just pressing play on your release versions are you.
Jlin
Right. Well, the thing about it is too, now I will say this, I like to perform my tracks the way that I made them. So like putting a bunch of delays and effects on my tracks, I don't like to do, I don't like doing that because I like to perform it the way that I created it. So when I am performing, I don't, no tricks, no gimmicks. I want, I intend the audience to hear it exactly the way I made it. Yeah.
Caro C
Wow OK. OK, yeah. And that must be an interesting process trying to transfer that from Fruity Loops and that linear kind of mapped out plan to something that's alive again, if you know what I mean.
Jlin
Yeah, but yeah, I know how to, I mean, I feel like it, the, you know, the music is exciting enough, I guess, to do it. So yeah, I feel like yeah, like it's, you know, it's enough to, yeah, like I know I can make it, I definitely know, I can know how to make it work.
Caro C
Yeah and I think what's so interesting about, you know, the sort of music tech, dare I say, revolution in terms of us being able to be on our own in a studio and building our own sound world, is that you'll have. probably your own way of doing that, you know, because, and you might not even be aware of it because you're in it, aren't you and it's all happened step by step that suddenly you're like oh, this is how I perform it. Oh, okay.
Jlin
Yeah, exactly. And it's yours. Like once, you know, everybody's is different, you know, everybody's performances is different. So it's, your formula is your formula and it's for you and it's comfortable for you and you're happy with it and that, that's what, you know, that's what makes the performance be, you know, it's not even about it being convincing, but really it's just about you being comfortable. You performing it as the artist first. But I, like I, but like, I'm not going to put out something that is, you know, that I don't believe in. So I'm not going to, so in performance, I'm not going to do the same thing. Like I'm not going to go and then put out, perform in a way that I don't believe in because either A, it makes somebody else happy, or that's the way, you know, this is how you should be doing it. I'm like, nah, cause that don't work for me. So.
Caro C
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and I think it's that authenticity, isn't it?
Jlin
Yeah. I think you being authentic, I think that what has gotten me this far is being my authentic self and being vulnerable with my audience, whether it be through them listening to the work itself or coming to the performance, like I'm always vulnerable with my audience.
Caro C
I think you've done amazingly like that in terms of that authenticity and it's great, it's great, 'cause that is where the magic is for me anyway. Yeah, so if we unpack Akoma a bit, obviously there's some wonderful collaborations in there and sound sources almost, but yeah, where do you get your sound world from, 'cause I'm not sure if it's samples, I'm not sure if it's you program everything. Yeah, tell us more about that.
Jlin
Well, I do program, I do single notation for every sound, yes. So I don't loop and the only time I try to, if I have, if I sample is because I either had to or it was something because I was centering it around something, like there was a, there was a, a, a concept of some sort. But normally, like I love doing single notation. Like a lot of people, they're like oh, that takes so much time. Well I'm willing to walk around to take the long way around because I like to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like if I like something, if I like a sound or I like something and I want to learn how to do it, implement it, there's nothing wrong with looping, I have no issues with it whatsoever. Or, you know or MIDI or anything of the sort, but I feel like everything that I create has its own, it's like I see they're like every song, like my child, you love them differently and then they eventually are, you know, they all grow up, but you have to love them differently. So yeah, they all stand alone. So then, you know, you did not the same. So I have to, I treat every song as such that they're not the same. So I'm not going to go get the last element from this song and bring it into this song.
Caro C
And I remember coming up to you after you, I'm not sure if you've performed or shared, but you were doing the soundtrack for a Wayne McGregor show here in Salford. And I remember coming up to you and saying something about really appreciating your intricacies and you said to me, it's all about the intricacies.
Jlin
Oh, it is. It's always the detail. Oh yeah, yes.
Caro C
Yeah, wonderful. I wonder if you could unpack that a bit for us.
Jlin
Oh yeah, sure. Like the, it's all about the detail because those small things make big thing and I learned that very early in just my personal life, you know, my mother always told me, she said, it's always the little things that matter. It always are those small things that you think don't matter. Those small things make, the bridge is big because the nuts and bolts, which are small, make them, it makes the bridge bridge, you know? So I've always paid attention to detail.
Caro C
We've got the why kind of thing. So could you expand a bit on sort of the how and the what that you do that? Because now you say that, it's obvious listening to your music and you do get a strong bridge if we carry on that analogy as a result.
Jlin
Yeah, like I just, I, you know, I'm not a, I have a simple mantra that I use when it comes to creating, that I operate in CPU, clean, precise and unpredictable. So I have, so that is the mantra that I use to create, so the how, as you can, my music is very layered. So when I go in and I'm creating, I never start the same. I don't, cause I, like I said I, the beauty of creating of composition for me is a lot of times people ask me, so what do you do first though? What is the, you know, it's almost like a, what is the blueprint question? There is no blueprint. That's the beauty of it. I never know what I'm going to do. I love not having control. I love it. It is the best not having control and not knowing what I'm going to create is that is, I think that is the beauty of how the track is made, not only the beauty of it, but the also is the necessity of how and why it gets made because I don't have control and I don't want control. I'm just the vessel that this is passing through. So the less I have, the more I can do. And I love that, because I'm not being, it's not given, it's like a math problem where this isn't given. You have to, or it is given, you have the answers, but the answers are spiritually inside of you. Now, what was the question? That's what I have to go search for. And when I'm creating a song and that's the way I've always seen it. I have the answers, but now what was the question? So being an intuitive creator, the technicalities aren't my concern. The, even though what I'm doing is very, you know, it's electronic, it's technical, I get that, but that's not my concern. I was born with this, the answers. I was born with this rhythm. I just, I had to tap into it though, but I always had it. So again, there is no blueprint for me. I don't operate in, this is what I do, start with the kick, start with this drum, now turn this to this DB. That, no, I don't operate like that.
Caro C
It sounds like you revel in the voyage of discovery in a sense.
Jlin
Yeah. I like to find things that are, I have to, that means I have to, okay, I dug deep like this piece I've done, okay. I did, you know, I did a piece with Bjork, okay. Now you have to dig deeper because the next thing is set to come out. What is the next thing? I don't know what that next thing is yet, but I love that I don't.
Caro C
Yeah. And do you, do you use much synthesis? Have you got any favourite synthesizers that you like to use or sound sources otherwise?
Jlin
Yeah, like I have, like, I love Kontakt is like Native Instruments, Native Instruments, Kontakt. There's so many, so many libraries, infinite libraries now and I love Spitfire Audio. I love Spitfire Audio. That is like, that is a go to. In Kontakt, I use, like of course my music is very percussive, so I use the, you know, different percussion, you know, libraries. It just, you know, again, it depends, but like synthesizers, I love Omni. I love Sylenth. I love Serum. You know, that's a big one, I like Serum a lot. Electrax. Yeah. So I love those or the ones that I stumbled across and I'm like, oh man, why, you know, why haven't I never heard of this you know? So it's always, it's a constant, I'm a constant student. It's a constant learning process. Yeah.
Caro C
Yeah, yeah. That's something I love about it the most is that constant learning. And are you the sort of person that will be fishing out new tools and sounds?
Jlin
Every time. Yeah. Yeah. Every time. Like I, especially when I'm getting ready to do an album in particular. Yeah. Like I'm definitely fishing then, I really am fishing then and being reacquainted with, I stopped listening to everything though. I don't listen to my old work. I don't listen to anybody's music when I'm about to go into a space of creating, I completely detox. I change my diet. I will, you know, just kind of like juice, just do drink juices and smoothies. I go into this thing of like, of detoxing and yeah, fasting. Yeah.
Caro C
Yeah. I don't know if you can even summarize, what you do listen to when you're not in that phase, then what does feed you in terms of other people's music?
Jlin
Yeah like I love, one of the things I like to do, I like, like Sade is my favorite artist so I definitely, you know, like listening to Sade. I love listening to music that I grew up with. So I listen to Sade, I listen to Luther Vandross, I listen to, you know, Eric Clapton, Al Jarreau, like, I listen to things I grew up with. Tito Puente, Pete Escovado, Sheila E, you know, the whole E family, I, you know, so Missy Elliot. I listen to a range of things. Igor Stravinsky. I definitely go back and study Igor Stravinsky a lot, that is somebody I study a lot.
Caro C
Do you ever think whether those dudes, if they were around now, whether they'd all be using a lot of electronic tools and whether it would be so fixed as classical? Because I often think that I remember studying Beethoven's fifth for a course and thinking, this is techno.
Jlin
Yeah. Like I, you know, especially with all the arpeggio, yeah. Like yeah, I don't, you know, I'm sure that they probably would have, would adapt to the times, you know, I mean, you would have to cause technology is advancing, bu you know, but I'm sure that they would adapt. It definitely may be the thing of, you know, the fight of this isn't real music or, you know, I mean, it might, maybe, you know maybe, or maybe they may have been like oh yeah, you know, this is what I, you know, this is something, you know, because it's new and then they become, you know, they would still be students of the, of evolution as well, you know? We're all kinds of students of evolving, at least I hope so.
Caro C
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So in terms of that kind of almost getting yourself in the zone to create, are you someone that is disciplined and turns up every day at a particular time and puts, or, and shows up, or is it more about, right, I'm going into this phase of deep creation, which might be, you know, a few months or whatever.
Jlin
I, well, I'm a pretty disciplined person like anyway, like I get, like I said, I get up at between the hours of 3:30 and 4. The only time I don't do that is if I'm, you know, like I'm extremely tired. But for the most part, yeah, like I'm a pretty disciplined person in that regard. Because I feel like once seven o'clock has hit, I've lost my day. If I get up at like seven, I feel like I've lost my day. Or unless it was intentional, that I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to sleep to seven because all I've been doing is every time my feet move, I hit the ground running, so I need a break. I am a person who if I know if I'm moving intentionally and I'm like, okay, I'm going to write this piece, so I'm going to write it. I'm now I'm starting to write an album or an EP or just something of the sort of working on a commission work piece, a project, I go into this space, okay, I'm going to get up at this time, do this, this is how much I plan to get, how much work I plan to get done for today and I may not go that way, but even if I, if out of the three things, three goals that I said, if I got up at the time I was supposed to, and I got, I say I didn't get as far as I wanted to in the piece, but those out of the three things I got up, I, on time, I, you know, got in a studio to work it, but the piece wasn't as long as I wanted it to be for that day, the two out of the three is good for me because then, you know, at least I have a, you know, that discipline of being able to do that. So, yeah, I just take the time and you know the, cause I know I'm going to finish the project of course, cause you have to, cause you're on a deadline, but it's about, yeah, you show about, you know, showing up every day and every day is not going to be a good day. Some days you're going to feel like throwing your laptop against the wall. Every day is not a good day.
Caro C
I don't know if you've heard of Terry Pratchett. He talks about write 500 words a day. You might only keep two of them, but...
Jlin
Exactly if I can get through four bars, like I listen to people say they make 10 tracks a day and I'm like, that's insane to me. If I get through four bars today, it's a good day for me sometimes, yeah. Because sometimes I have gone through months where I don't have anything and you know, I'm just completely empty and then yeah, something sparks.
Caro C
How do you feel your confidence has grown or developed and your voice has developed with the validation, if you like, of the support you've had and the collaborators you've worked with?
Jlin
I think that as far as my confidence is, in this world you have to be, as a Black woman, you have to be careful with that word because confident, nobody wants a Black woman to be confident. I mean, I'm just keeping it real. Nobody wants a Black woman to be confident. So you have to be careful with that word. Because if you're too confident to go, not even too confident, if you're just confident, the goal seems to be in this world to knock you back down and put you in your place. So you have to be, just keep your head down, focus and work. I am confident in my ability though for sure, because I've been able to do this for, you know, for so long and but I am also in the humility, my gift humbles me daily by the millisecond and I have a saying that I tell a person, if your gift does not humble you daily, you're not practicing enough. Yeah, so I am, I'm cognizant about the world, I'm very aware of the world in which I live because the same people that will raise you up and praise you today, if the, if it got up high enough and the word got put out to hate you tomorrow, everybody would, including you. Yeah. They would hate you tomorrow.
Caro C
Yeah, harsh realities.
Jlin
Absolutely, yeah.
Caro C
And it is about just sticking to it, isn't it really? Yeah.
Jlin
Yeah because stick, just keep your head down and work because flattery is dangerous.
Caro C
Oh yeah, definitely. But I think I've always sensed a confidence both in your sound obviously, but also in terms of how you talk about your work as well. That comes across.
Jlin
But that comes with a lot of falling though, a lot of hitting, being slammed against the wall, a lot of leaping and not making the jump. Yeah.
Caro C
Yeah, yeah. So you're about to embark on tour?
Jlin
I haven't toured in a while so this is going to be adjusting to touring again, you know, going night after night after night after night. I do have some days off in between which I greatly appreciate but yeah, it's gonna be, you know, just getting used to, you know, first the jet lag of getting to the first spot and then once you, you know, you're in Europe though, you just flying from city to city, but you basically kind of almost flying every day, pretty much. So you know, I love and I'm so grateful that the my audience and the people who even people who don't know me, like people who come out and see a show out of curiosity or they've been invited by a friend and then they end up actually oh, I'm interested in this and you know, I'm always grateful for that. The people who don't like it, you know, they also, same thing, you know, who criticize, all of that is balance, all of that makes the balance, so it makes the scale balance out. So you know, nobody's constantly cheering for you all the time. That wouldn't be, that's not even realistic. Yeah. I'm, just a matter of getting back into touring and yeah, I love to see the smiles on people's faces and it's almost kind of like a family reunion type thing.
Caro C
And are you going across Europe and the US, any other countries you're off to or places?
Jlin
Right now I'm just focused on one mountain at a time. So Europe first, one mountain at a time and then we, yeah, we're going to get the US thing together. We're going to get that together.
Caro C
Brilliant. So is the live show already built and ready to go or is that process in progress?
Jlin
It's done, I mean, I definitely can, like if somebody was like hey, can you put on a show today? I definitely could. But you know, it changes as I, you know, with myself, cause I discovered new things about the pieces I'm playing and you know, how I'm playing them and then you know, it'll develop and you know, I'm writing and ooh, I want to put this in. So you know, it's yeah, I think it's constantly, you know, it'll constantly evolve. But yeah, it's a, but I feel I'm, I feel I have a stability, yes. I have a stable space.
Caro C
The foundations are all ready, they're all laid. Brilliant.
Jlin
Yeah. Yeah, they're all laid, yeah.
Caro C
Wonderful, excellent. Do you do any work or performance for multi-channel or are you still sticking with stereo for now?
Jlin
I've done them on, was it Monome? It was 102 channels. Yeah, I've done, yeah, I've done that one. Yeah, so I've, yeah, I've done it before. I, no disrespect, it doesn't interest me all the way just yet. Like it's cool, but it doesn't interest me just yet. It hasn't, I haven't seen anything that has just really gravitated me to be like oh, we got to do everything in multi-channel. I mean don't, even like when I did Monome, like I, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the performance I, you know what I can do, I'm one of those people too, I get bored very easily. I could do something one time, I don't need to do it again. It's like, okay, I did that, I don't need to do that again. Yeah.
Caro C
Suzanne Ciani says that electronic music should be performed in quad and she said when she was, you know, forging her way in the sort of 80s, there was sort of, no-one would give her quad. Whereas now, she said, finally they've kind of caught up and she is at a point where she can actually request it and she feels that's enough and it's more immersive kind of thing and more space to play with.
Jlin
Yeah, it's an immersive, yeah I totally agree, it is, it's completely immersive experience, but what I think was frustrating about it is just like what you said, though. But how many venues actually have this available where you can do it? You know what I'm saying? Everybody else is usually stereo in left and right, you know? So that's the tough part. It's like oh yeah, this would be great and then but, and you build a show of, you know, like I would, I just did an artist residency with me and my visionist, that's what I call her, a visionist, because she's way more than an audio visual artist, Florence To. And we were working on, you know, building the Akoma show and it's kind of like, I mean, this is great, you know, you have all these multi-channels you know, at Impact and then it's like yeah, but all the spaces we're performing in is all left and right. So it's like, this is great, I love it, but it's like...
Caro C
Until you can take your own sound system and install it everywhere then yeah.
Jlin
Yeah exactly. Unless you can take, right, unless you're going to take 64 speakers with you everywhere you go and install this, alright. Exactly. But it's, yeah, but other than that, it's kind of like okay, this was a great experience.
Caro C
Anyway, back to work, yeah.
Jlin
Yeah, exactly.
Caro C
Yeah, I had to go at mixing binaural in my last album and I thought that was quite nice because that's a headphone experience that almost gives that literally extra dimensions and it did feel like a beautiful choreography in the 360 space.
Jlin
Oh absolutely, it is. It's a beautiful choreography with sound. Oh, I totally agree. That's an excellent way to put it, very beautiful, it is. It is exactly that, choreography with sound and moving it in shapes and dimensions and you know, through all these different tones and vibration. But yeah it just, you know, it's like you say, unless you can install this everywhere you go...
Caro C
Brilliant, okay. I wonder if there's any kind of future plans or maybe even dreams, pipe dreams around your art and technology that you'd be happy to share.
Jlin
I actually, I don't have the answer to that one. I think like for me, just speaking for me, I am exactly where I'm supposed to be right now. That's the best way I can put it. I think I am doing exactly what I'm supposed to do and where I'm supposed to be right now. So it's not that I can't or don't, you know like, can't think in a futuristic way. Whatever it is hasn't struck me yet to be able to answer that question because it's not the first time I've been asked that, but it hasn't struck me yet, but maybe, you know, maybe at some point it will, but right now I just feel like I'm in a, I'm supposed to, no matter how chaotic a situation is or living in a world of, okay, I'm not going to say that. I was going to say, despite being surrounded by sociopaths.
Caro C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you.
Jlin
World. Yes it, you know, it's chaotic as it can be. I feel like I am exactly where I'm supposed to be right now.
Caro C
Awesome. I think we'll leave it there. I think we'll leave it where you are right now and yeah, wish you all the best on your continued voyages of discovery.
Jlin
Thank-you so much.
Caro C
Thank you for listening and be sure to check out the show notes for further information, as well as links and details of the other episodes in the Electronic Music series. And just before you go, let me point you to soundonsound.com/podcast where you can explore what's on our other channels. This has been a Caro C production for Sound On Sound.
