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Where food opens the door to conversations about craft, culture & tradition.
The Wild Kitchen Ep 6 Elias Ciaro
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Tiffany Bader: [00:00:00] My guest today on The Wild Kitchen is Elias Cairo, who among many other things is the head lumis and founder of Olympia Provisions, the most respected and awarded charcuterie house in America. Thank you very much for joining me here at Elias.
Elias Ciaro: Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's gonna be great.
Tiffany Bader: We were chitchatting a little bit before I hit record.
I'm hesitant to not hit record as soon as I possibly can because it seems like often the, the best stuff happens before and after record, record goes on, but Sure. Um, I, uh, we briefly chatted about, uh, your products and getting them in Canada and I just, just before getting to the studio, I was down in the States picking up a box of your amazing products.
Amazing. Um, honestly, like no joke, it blew me away. Like I, I've been, I've been reading about your stuff forever. Um. But to taste it, [00:01:00] it was insane. Like, no joke. Blew me away. It was so good.
Elias Ciaro: Thank you. That's huge. Thank I Really, really? Yeah. That will never get old for me to hear. And this is the first time you've tried my product and what, what I do.
Wow.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I've great. I've read, I've read a lot about you. Uh, I followed, followed your work for a long time. Mm-hmm. Um, being, being a fellow chef, like I've got a metric poop ton of respect for the work that you do. And the fact that you're also a hunter, um, is, is pretty distinctive as well. But like, man, your stuff is so good.
It's not, it's not like I find a lot of times stuff in North America you're like, you know, it's good for, it's good for Canada or it's good for North America, but like, your stuff is. And it, you take that away, it's, it's better than stuff I, I had in Europe, easily by a long shot.
Elias Ciaro: That means a lot to me.
Thank you. Yeah, I, I love what I do. I'm surrounded by an unbelievable amount of talented people, and our goal was to make it as best as we possibly could. And that's kind of been our [00:02:00] goal. And that's what excites us and that's what gets us up in the morning. And I think everybody that works here, that's why we do it, is to try to make the best product.
Not the fastest, not the cheapest, not the easiest, but just the best. And with that comes a lot of. Hard work, but it's super rewarding just hearing that from you. And when people tell me things like this that have tried and have respect for meat like you do and love to cook, and other chefs, it's always, it's just so humbling when somebody can really recognize all the hard work that you and your, you know, your team puts together and puts it out there.
So yeah, it means the world to me, so thank you.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. No, well, thank you. 'cause like, it's, it's a rare thing to have something that's it. It's, it's nice to eat something that, you know, you talk about ethically raised animals and using the best products and all those things, but like, at the end of the day, if it doesn't taste good
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Like, who cares? Right. It's so
Elias Ciaro: true.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Your stuff is amazing. So you, you're talking about the culture of the people that work around you.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, how much do you think that plays into [00:03:00] the, the end result?
Elias Ciaro: Oh, I think it's huge. I, I, I, I, you know, I, we always try to remind each other here that our entire job is to give people that moment of pause of enjoyment every single day.
And that's what the end of it is. Like. They're spending a little premium, life's busy, there's families, there's all sorts of things. But to imagine as you're making all of this meat that somebody someplace in America or Canada is gonna take a moment to have a bite of, be it a breakfast sausage to a salami, and they're gonna be like, holy crap.
Like this is just amazing. And that's your opportunity every single day that you get to do by. Truckloads. You know, we make a lot, a lot of meat here. And, you know, to build that culture into our plant that we're, that we're here 'cause it is a meat plant. We work under USDA regulation and it's, you know, it's cold, it's hot, it's heavy, it's all of the hard work that it is.
And we have time. We eat lunch together. We cook for, we cook for the entire staff here. Every single day. We get breakfast, lunch on the weekend. You're [00:04:00] able to take meat home to your family so you can enjoy it. You get beers after work or a soda if you don't drink. And it's just like reminding people that what we're doing here is food and not lose connection from that is, is really big.
And, uh, us having restaurants too keeps us really reminded that, you know, we, we are producing experiences, we are allowing people to enjoy a piece of meat. It's just not a widget, if you will. Or it's not just a, a thing. And, uh. You know, it's very, when I say it's very handcrafted, the meat industry, I think in America is really speed and automation focused.
And there's so many ways to, you know, to speed it up or to cheapen it to get this product out there. And we just don't abide by that. We, we want it to be real. You know, we're using real smoke. We ferment, we do not co-pack. We hand butcher everything, every product we do, we grind our spices every single morning.
And fresh garlic, fresh onions, you know, people [00:05:00] hear that it's a meat plant and it is an SQF, audited, certified humane, regenerative, all of the things that you need. Uh, but when you walk in here, it's just a gigantic kitchen. Like you, if you're a chef and you've been into a big busy kitchen, you walk in here and you're like, well, there's a lot more rules.
There's a lot more regulation, there's a lot of cooking going on here, and a lot of prep is happening at the same time. But yeah. I feel very lucky to be here.
Tiffany Bader: It's, it's funny, the thing that struck me, I, I opened this box and there's like, I got a couple of, uh, sorted packs. I got the, the Italian mix pack and then like the award pack, and then you guys drew in the Christmas one and
Elias Ciaro: Oh, very cool.
Tiffany Bader: That was, oh, that was a surprise. That was really, really good. Um, but you open it up with a paper and it just, this beautiful white mold covered mm-hmm. Kind of slightly squishy to the touch sausage rolls out. No plastic. It's just like I, it was, it blew me away that, that that could be a mail order [00:06:00] product and, and show up so perfectly.
Uh, it was, yeah, you could tell there's a lot of heart, a lot of. You know, a lot of human touch in that. So it was, yeah, it was very cool.
Elias Ciaro: And the fact that you even recognized that it's mold is a unique in the world, that it's a natural, raw, fermented thing that we cover in live active molds and ship over state lines.
It, that's not lost on me either. No, I
Tiffany Bader: know. It's funny. When I was at the border, I was like, because I. I, I like to travel and how I like to travel includes, uh, first and foremost is experiencing that culture through their food.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: So like if I'm in Mexico, I'm going in the markets and like stick my face in the chili peppers and like trying to bring stuff home, provided it's, it's legal, but one of the things that gets me is like, shipping meat across borders is really challenging.
So when I came across with yours, I'm like, oh God, please don't be, please don't be problematic. But yeah, no, no problem whatsoever. It's great.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, [00:07:00] yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: We do ship across the border anyways. It is legal. We just, yeah, we just don't ship tail because of the amount of, uh, labeling that it takes in the French and English Yeah.
And all that stuff. Eventually I will, it's uh, you know, picking my battles. We got plenty of work to do.
Tiffany Bader: Oh yeah, I bet. I bet. And, um. You were, you were also talking about, um, USD, sorry, USDA certification. And you see over and over again, you guys are like the first ones in Oregon to get it done. Mm-hmm. Talk to me about the significance of that.
Um. And why that was important to you?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, so USDA is what inspects the meat industry here in America, and they're here every single day. Um, uh, we, we should be very thankful that we have them here because they do an amazing job. They ensure that a lot of meat is, um, safe and wholesome and nobody's gonna get sick, and they're making sure that it's done legally.
Um, and to be honest with you, they've been an asset for me. I, I truly believe it. It's, [00:08:00] it's a lot of, it's a lot of work, but it's a peace of mind that, you know, you're doing it safe. You're, you're not, you're, you're, you're not doing anything that's gonna put anybody at risk. Um, it does allow me to ship over state lines.
So that's the number one. Okay. I'm able to sell into retail stores or do whatever it is. Without that, you would be FDA or, uh. Um, different states have different rules where you're able to sell within state lines. My, my whole goal was to kind of take real charcuterie that I learned making in Europe and be able to just distribute it nationwide if somebody was so interested.
I obviously started as a one man employee. I had no clue that it would sell nationwide and export. Yeah. And all, all of those things. But at the time, I, I, you know, I reached out to the USDA, Dr. Barrows, she's an amazing woman, and it was 2008 and I was like, Hey, I wanna ferment meat naturally, meaning I, I wanna hold it in the danger zone.
Uh, yeah. Fermented naturally. Cover it in a live [00:09:00] active mold. Have a high fat content, never cook it, and I don't want to put it in plastic and I want to ship it. And her response back to me was like, yeah, no.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah,
Elias Ciaro: elaborate.
Tiffany Bader: I, well, I think, I think that's sort of the perception with, with a lot of producers of like.
I think maybe European style of food where it's, you know, raw milk and, and the cheeses that come from that and all those things. And there's this perception that like, government involvement in any food produced like that is a bad thing.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: And, you know, the government, because it's only gonna come in and make you sterilize everything to the point where it tastes like, you know, Kraft cheese slices and Oscar Meyer bologna and like, so there's no point in doing it.
But that hasn't happened to you. Like you're, you're, it doesn't seem to have made any sort of detrimental
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Um, effect on what you're doing.
Elias Ciaro: Correct. And, you know, the USDA and I think a lot what you're seeing with raw milk and everything, they're not against it [00:10:00] as long as you can prove it with science and you know what you're doing.
And with all of these ancient techniques, it all is based on some food safety science. Yeah. And what. What a lot of people have done is why we're so familiar with why we're cooking salami as opposed to naturally fermenting em or encapsulated acids to drop pH and all the tricks that we have to get quote unquote salami out there is because it's easier and much safer.
You don't really need to know, uh, what you're doing in a lactic fermentation or have to have the cleanest and sterilist environments. You're getting a lot more. Turtles if you're cooking, as opposed to keeping it raw. But if you can really explain and you're, you know, you're a true crafts person and are willing to do the work, um, it's obviously safe because we've been eating it for thousands of years, but not a lot of people really understand it.
It takes a lot of reading and learning and studying and practicing and then verifying what the certified body, be it a college or a scientist that can say, Hey, here's my [00:11:00] science. Test it through all the processes. Now let me prove it to the USDA, that it is wholesome. And then they'll look at it and say, yeah, go ahead.
Who's gonna eat this crazy stuff? And then you're kind of asking, yeah, who is going to, and apparently people love it.
Tiffany Bader: So what was it as simple as that? Just like showing them the science and they're like, yeah, no, makes sense. Let's go. Yep.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, pretty much, you know, uh, the, you have a has plan where you set up your hazard analysis control points.
You tell them how you're addressing all the major pathogens that are in me from e co salmonella to listeria, and what part of your steps are killing and addressing them. And if you can talk to that and prove that you can repeat it. You have about six months to do your documentation. You can do all your tests, so on and so forth.
And then they approve it.
Tiffany Bader: Wow.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, it's pretty easy. That's amazing retrospect. I remember when I first read it, it was the most horrifying thing and super happy. My wonderful sister is so smart to help me out with that at the time, and now we're here.
Tiffany Bader: I it, well, that's like anything, right? Like you build a [00:12:00] business and you look back, you're like, I could do that again.
No. Like, that's, that's easy. I know how to do that. But at the time you're like, oh God, what's a business bank account? What is that like? It's, it's all new.
Elias Ciaro: It still happens to me, you know?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah,
Elias Ciaro: yeah. An export to Japan, or, uh, you know, we are, we just got certified regenerative, or we're actually in the process of it right now and certified organic.
Awesome. Which is amazing for what we want to do as a bigger company picture. But even you're going through these steps and you're talking about separation programs and all of these things, they just seem so daunting. And at some point you just gotta keep, keep digging, you know? Yeah. Ironically, I do associate it a lot to hunting in that same way.
My job in a, in a strange way, like when you're going on a big hunt. You wake up prepared every single day. You have all of your ducks in a row, you have your, your stuff. And if you kinda look at your bigger problems like that, it's very, very, in my mind, similar, I've been having these talks with my hunting buddies so much.
'cause they're like, well, you work a lot. And I was like, yeah, but I [00:13:00] really do love it. You know, I, I, it see so many synergies into that. The more I'm prepared, the more I'm ready. The harder bitter game plan I have for it, the more successful I have been. It's, there's a lot of synergies and it's all, both of them are quite type two funs, not all the time.
Is it
Tiffany Bader: possible? I was just type two, fun term was rolling around in the back of my head there. It's like you're going through buck brush and sweaty and tired and hungry and miserable and you see a grizzly bear. You're like, oh my God, why do I do this? I could just buy meat, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But no, you don't.
It's, it that's, that's like who wants to live a boring life? Are you just like. Don't put yourself through stuff like that. Right.
Elias Ciaro: So people don't know how rewarding it is to achieve difficult things like that from creating a business, a unique product, or I know shooting a deer, doing all of that stuff is so rewarding.
Tiffany Bader: Totally. Yeah. No, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So that's, it's kind of nice. Keeps it a little bit [00:14:00] quieter out there on the mountains and
Elias Ciaro: sometimes, yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. So sometimes,
Elias Ciaro: sometimes, for
Tiffany Bader: sure. Um, yeah. So for people that don't know you and your products and, and the reason why your product's very different from, from 90, what is it, like 98.3% or 99% of the stuff out there?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Um, can you, can you kind of dive in a little bit on how most animals are raised?
Elias Ciaro: Hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, and, and why you didn't wanna just go to like. We, I mean, I don't have to say the producers, but you can if you are, but like why you didn't just go there and just buy cases of sides of sides, pig.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. For, let's see, how would I even start that conversation?
Tiffany Bader: How much do we wanna horrify the public?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, exactly. Uh, um, for one, I was fortunate enough to learn how to do this in Europe. You know, I spent five years in the Swiss Alps with people that had so much integrity and respect and had an amazing conversation of what it meant to make a true, great product.
And that [00:15:00] always traced back to how you treated animals, how, how that interacted with your environment and your community. And of course, they have a thousand years of raising these animals in these environments. And the impacts good and bad of it. Um, and that just always stuck with me. You know, it stuck with me when I came back, when I met some of my idols or people and families that have been raising animals and curing meat this entire time on how they just respected those animals.
And then I came back to America and started working here with my dream of creating the best meat, not only in America, but hopefully in the, in the world where I can be respected in every conversation with that. And it just wasn't very possible. So the, the vast majority of meat raised in America is, uh, horribly tortured, especially in pork, uh, uh, pork, definitely.
Um, it's raised in confinement. These animals cannot turn around. They clip their ears, they clip their teeth. They use septic ponds, they use antibiotics in the sows. Um, I, I [00:16:00] can't even believe. And this creates a very bland tasting meat as well as has a horrible environmental impact and is never gonna make a spectacular products.
Uh, I, I, I believe that. Sometimes the vegans are very correct on this thing. If this is the way, if this is the way we're gonna raise meat, it's not the right way to do it. And there's a better way that we can use animals if we respect them and put 'em on pre pasture and use them to improve land and support smaller farms and pay the proper price for that.
So the animals that we are growing and looking into, you know, they're raised on pasture, they're gap four audited. They have either one of the smaller farms that I work with have some sort of regenerative mission in there. Raising of their animals being removing chip grass from sagebrush, uh, uh, blackberries from the Willamette Valley or in acorns that are holding different types of mites or even removing hard soil that they couldn't till [00:17:00] anymore.
So using animals on their ranch to improve the soil. Also, getting these animals in way better depth of flavor and all the things that come along with that. And in that explaining to America that throughout the year, it shouldn't taste the exact same, to understand that an animal that is eating dried hay.
To blackberries, to grass, to sage, like the animal creates a much different flavor. And it, and that's part of why I think it's just unique. Does that even answer your question?
Tiffany Bader: No, it, it does, it does. 'cause I think, I think people are, I mean, like, how much stress do you wanna have when you go to the grocery store, right?
So people are like, okay, well stay to the outside of the grocery store and it's a fresh food and stay away from the processed stuff. But then they think they're buying things in the grocery store and then it gets into the whole greenwashing side of things. But yes, uh, without even hitting that, I definitely wanna cover that, but like, without even hitting that.
They're buying food and they have no, I like, people are so [00:18:00] detached from, from killing animals in that whole process. And you look at hunting, which is something which is not disgusting. It's not horrifying or, or any of those things. Mm-hmm. But when we get that many animals altogether and raise them in a commercial environment, it, it is, it is horrifying.
And it's so hard to get outta that.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: And for people to buy something that's not
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Revolting.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I guess, I guess for me, um, I'm curious how you went from this is most of the meat that's produced and in, in. In America.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: To where do you get your meat from, then?
How do you, how do you work around that?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, so the, the vast majority of my meat is ga, or all of my meat is GAP certified. That comes into my group, which is Global Animal Approved, which is a third party auditing party that goes to every one of the farms and checks it and makes sure that the animals are not clipped or harmed or, or, or [00:19:00] done.
And at the same time, my Farmer's Network or GAP four, this is a smaller network of farmers that are. Here in Oregon or the Pacific Northwest that, uh, allow animals to be on pasture in Rome around. So I, I started way back in 2009 with my first, you know, buying whole animals from farms and failed, uh, nine times with nine separate farms trying to get this to actually work.
And, uh, you know, from farmers quitting to getting the wool pulled over my eyes to just creating a product that was not great into scaling, as my wonderful sister said was like, if you really, really want to make a, an impact, you have to be able to have volume and then people will listen to you because of X, Y, and Z and build your systems.
And, and we've did this, and as we've grown, we've made amazing partners like Whole Foods and oh gosh, larger New Seasons and grocers and bigger distribution out there, like Murray's and all these great people. [00:20:00] Believe in the mission and understand that it's gonna take somebody. And as you grow with them, you tell your story and people start believing in you.
And then you get one farmer where you're buying the whole herd from, and you're fully utilizing all of those. And then their neighbor hears about it and the network starts growing. And now we're here talking to you about something that was just a dream. And still, you know, it still hasn't, you know, I, I'm still probably about a decade away to where I'm a hundred percent all pasture raised pork, because I wanna scale it very responsibly in making sure that as I grow, I'm not wasting product and I'm not putting any farmer in compromising situation and making sure it's a real sound foundation of what we're doing.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you say you're using the whole animal. You, you like grilling off a bunch of, what is it, Rezi, I, I'm sure I'm not pronouncing it right, that, uh, the Greek. Uh, dish with like the awful, we're wrapped around with the intestines wrapped around it
Elias Ciaro: intestine [00:21:00] we're, we don't do that yet, but I really would give absolutely everything to stuff.
Yeah. No, that's, I absolutely love that. My family makes it in our pizza oven or we stuff the kidneys, the hearts and everything in the intestine and bake it with, uh, beans and everything. It's an amazing dish. Mine has to be a little bit more marketable.
Tiffany Bader: It's not for everybody.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. It's not for everybody.
And strangely nobody knows about it. So the, uh, what I do is I take the whole animal and then I have to look at everything. And this was probably, gosh now, a decade ago, where my first true problem was, Hey, if you're a true charcuterie maker, your goal is to utilize and add value to every piece of these animals.
And my sister's business and finance base, and she just looked at me like off the cusp and she was like, there's a lot of skim bone ful and what is all this other stuff? Like, I don't even, she. Could now probably take apart a pig, but it's not what she does. You know, I'm not great at Excel and she doesn't like to push brooms, you know, like that's not what we're for.
Good partners. Yeah, exactly. And, [00:22:00] uh, she looked at me and she's just like, figure out how to use all of this rest of this stuff, or it's gonna fail, or we're gonna have to push back on our farmers to lower their prices. And that's like, you know, when you push back on a farmer, a partner, the quickest way is, is yeah, you put 'em in confinement, you dumb down, you give 'em, uh, uh, pesticides, herbicides, antibiotics, all the things that makes it bulletproof.
So the long story short is, uh, I take the bone skin ful, feet, uh, anything I can't sell through all the other products that I make, and I make a pet treat. So I make these little dog treats. I grind it four or five times on a 50 horsepower, 50 amp grinder, and I stuff 'em into little casings and I sell 'em to dog treats and I distribute 'em across America.
And, you know, that's, oh, that's
Tiffany Bader: perfect.
Elias Ciaro: That's literally the balance. And I think that that's. In, when I came out with my, this Petri product, a lot of people were telling me not to put my brand on it, make a separate brand because it's going to, uh, you know, diminish what I'm doing to offer to humans. And to me, I think that I was losing an [00:23:00] opportunity to tell the bigger problem in America.
Tiffany Bader: A hundred percent.
Elias Ciaro: Where you're like, Hey, with with animals you have bones. Yeah. You have ly, you have kidneys, you have all sorts of stuff that you just can't make, you gotta make something to fully utilize all these products. So the, the pet treat industry, I always say this was the most difficult sausage I've ever made in my life.
Had no clue what I was doing. There's no rule book on to make this and the shelf life for a pet treat needs to be a year and a half. And
Tiffany Bader: really
Elias Ciaro: where does, yeah. The pet industry is just a wild world to get into, but
Tiffany Bader: which is crazy 'cause my dog eats cat poop, so like, I just don't, doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah. And I'm sure the quality of the meat going into your pet treats are infinitely better than the. You know, the floor shavings that
Elias Ciaro: Exactly. That
Tiffany Bader: most of the other ones are.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah. The pet treat is very, you know, it's SQF audited and a human grade, and A-U-S-D-A plan is the same meat we eat.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: I can't tell you how many of the pet treats we've eaten, like just Oh, I bet.
Yeah. It's just, I mean, [00:24:00] it's all of the things you want to eat bone and stuff, and it just, yeah. Thing, it just needs a lot more salt to be enjoyable. My
Tiffany Bader: gosh. Oh my gosh. So the, the sausages themselves, I was looking at the ingredients on it.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: And it brings to mind the question, the eternal question of nitrates and nitrites.
And, uh, there's a, there's a local sausage shop near me that says we don't use, um, nitrates.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: And I went in there, I was like, how do you do it? 'cause your meat's all pink and
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Like, you, I don't, I, this isn't just salt that you're using here. And they're like, oh, we use nitrites. Or it was vice versa.
Like I, they say they don't use nitrates, but they say, they're like, we use nitrates.
Elias Ciaro: Okay.
Tiffany Bader: Does it, that seems like deceptive advertising
Elias Ciaro: to me. Yeah. That is
Tiffany Bader: for, from, I'm, no, I'm by no means an expert, but I, I remember reading somewhere that you use like nitrates and it, it converts over time while it's being fermented and turns into [00:25:00] a nitrite or something.
Something to that degree.
Elias Ciaro: Yes.
Tiffany Bader: Um. So can you, can you sort of run through that like quickly just for people that are buying like nitrate free or naturally cured meats?
Elias Ciaro: Yes, for sure. Quickly may not be the ultimate answer, but
Tiffany Bader: No, no, no. As long as you want. I got lots of time. I, I,
Elias Ciaro: let's go through this. So
Tiffany Bader: I'd love to crack this nut.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it, it's a, it's a very complicated issue. So yeah. Nitrates and nitrates are found in so many natural products. Your body creates it. There's a ton of it in celery root. There's a ton of it in beets, charred, um, leafy greens have a lot of nitrates and nitrites. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, nitrate turns to nitrite once it loses an oxygen, a molecule.
So it's the same thing. The reason we use it in sausage making mostly is for color and flavor. Hmm. But the most important part [00:26:00] of it is that it addresses a very, very lethal pathogen called botulism. It is impossible to kill botulism and fermentation with 100%, no doubt about it, without the use of nitrates.
So when you're, you, you can't cook it as we know you can, but it's to an, an ungodly temperature to kill, um, botulism. It's a very lethal and dangerous pathogen. Uh, but a little touch of nitrate will do that. A matter of fact, in German, it's called the verse, Cronkite. Right. So it's disease like that's how it happens.
And it got demonized in America during the bacon area where we used to just try to speed bacon through the process by dumping tons and tons of raw nitrate onto the product. And when it burns on it, it turns carcinogenic if you have an unbelievable amount in it. And so then it boomed and everybody said nitrates are bad for you.
So when this is a, this is a great analogy. I called when all of my sausage making problems, I always call my [00:27:00] German and it's Swiss sausage making friends. And I call 'em, and I was like, Hey, uh, what are you guys doing about this nitrate problem? And they're like, excuse me, the ni the nitrate problem. And I was like, yeah, like the, you know, it's bad for health and all these things.
And they're like, we give nitrate pills to our children when they have stomach problems too. Increase the amount of nitrates that we consume. What are you talking about? And so, oh
Tiffany Bader: my God.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it, it, it's a very, your body's creating it. It's in oxygen nitrate done naturally helps you digest and is a natural process to eat.
Uh, we use it to preserve color. The way you use nitrate free, um, uh, or to say nitrate free products is that you do it from a natural source. IE beet powder. Celery powder, um, charred powders, any of these things that have a high natural nitrate concept as opposed to using, uh. Um, a lab grown or produced nitrate.
And then historically, which I think is actually a very just [00:28:00] amazing thing to think about, is the greatest areas that have cured meat always had a salt source that had high nitrate levels in it. IE Parma, the mind salt from Parma was in an area that, that salt naturally has a high nitrate, um, Sicily, amazing trape salt, uh, is done sea salt, the vast majority of it is sea salt.
What they found is on big years where there's lots of fog and they have X amount of lightning storms, nitrate happens in the clouds and changes a higher nitrate, uh, concentrate in sodium, and then you have more nitrate in your natural salt.
Tiffany Bader: So that's super cool.
Elias Ciaro: Isn't that cool? And so they would notice when they would go to market salt from.
This source had enough nitrate in it to turn my meat pink and thus is safer, and so on and so forth.
Tiffany Bader: That's really funny. I've never heard that before. That's super cool.
Elias Ciaro: I think it's fascinating, but that's [00:29:00] just, it's my life and I live in it,
Tiffany Bader: so, so chemically speaking.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Is there any, is there any difference between nitrates that come from like beets and nitrates that come from a lab?
Elias Ciaro: No on, on paper, no. Yeah. But it is a, you know, on paper or in science, it's the same molecule that we create. Uh,
Tiffany Bader: okay.
Elias Ciaro: It's actually, you know, on, in theory, lab grown are more consistent. You're like everything, you know, they're way more precise. But if you're doing the parts per million math on it, you can do that relatively easy.
So it's just unadulterated from celery as opposed to created in a lab if you use pink salt and so on and so forth. So if somebody's at home and they're making salami out of their deer, elk, caribou, and they're hesitant to use a nitrate, I've, I'm just disagree with it strongly and say, yeah, please be safe.
Don't, don't go killing your whole family because you're not brewing beer here. You're fermenting meat and doing all this stuff. [00:30:00]
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I think people get this idea that like, I. Well, the Europeans just threw salt on it. So that's, that's all you gotta do. And there, like you said before, there's a, there's a certain science to it and if you don't understand the science behind it, then just don't, don't take those chances and
Elias Ciaro: Correct.
Yeah, yeah,
Tiffany Bader: yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Fermenting meat and curing salami. There's so many other amazing things you could produce in charcuterie that are so much safer. That's your personal, a bratwurst or a pate or a, a summer sausage or a pepperoni stick and all of those things where you're fermenting and cooking and there's so much things and those are fascinating and very difficult to make and make people super happy.
The fermented and dry cured and all of those things like grow up, like move to that. I can't tell you how many people Yeah. Have said, Hey man, I wanna learn how to make salami, or I wanna learn how to, uh, uh, dry cure prosciutto. Can you help me with that? And I was like, let's make a pate. Let's make some meat.
Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: let's
Elias Ciaro: some meat. Look, it's purple. [00:31:00]
Tiffany Bader: It's funny you say that. And I've, I've done all those things. I've done like the air cured
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: German style, west Ham. Oh, cool. I, I made, I made Trav, my husband and I made our own, uh, curing cabinet with like
Elias Ciaro: very cool
Tiffany Bader: humidity set air sensors and temperature settings and all the rest, but Awesome.
Uh, yeah, but we use, we use curing salt, so we're not, we're not messing around, but, uh,
Elias Ciaro: I don't think it was the first thing you made. I bet you made
Tiffany Bader: it. No, no, it wasn't. No, it's there, it certainly wasn't. Yeah. No, we've done, we've done a few other things. We're pretty comfortable with the sausage making and, and curing and all that kind of stuff.
Elias Ciaro: I love it.
Tiffany Bader: Um, speaking of complicated, uh, not that it's complicated, but like I, I also,
Elias Ciaro: oh,
Tiffany Bader: I picked up your book. Awesome. Uh, again, freaking awesome. And Meredith Erickson. Uh, that's super cool. She's like, been part of some of my favorite cookbooks too,
Elias Ciaro: especially as a Canadian. Uh,
Tiffany Bader: yeah, she is. And she, she did a book, um, the, the Alpine one.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm. [00:32:00]
Tiffany Bader: Uh, that like, yeah, it's just gorgeous. And the Joe Beef, Joe beef cookbooks too. And yeah,
Elias Ciaro: Joe Beef, she's such an amazing human being. And I was, I had zero want, need or capacity to ride a cookbook period in my wheelhouse. And then one of my friends said, Hey, this amazing woman named Meredith Erickson.
And I was like, of Joe Beef fan? And she mm-hmm. She wants to talk to you about a cookbook. And we sat down and she's like, I heard you went to school in Switzerland and she has a great love for the Alps. And I was telling her where and how, and she's like, wow, I think we should write a cookbook. And I was like, I don't have time.
And then I was like, I. You're
Tiffany Bader: an idiot. Yeah,
Elias Ciaro: I did.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. The, the, the middle section where you guys go to Switzerland, that reads a lot like her Alpine Cooking Cookbook. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It, it is quite, quite similar to that. I just, I love it. One thing that really struck me though. Beginning of the book.
Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: I, uh, bookmarked it.
It's pretty close. Page 33.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Only [00:33:00] page 33. You're instructing people how to make Copa de Testa. I love it. It's awesome.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: it's amazing. It
Elias Ciaro: makes me You like
Tiffany Bader: that? Yeah. I, oh man. I love it. I love it when people don't. Don't treat their, their readers or their audience, like they're stupid. Like,
Elias Ciaro: yeah,
Tiffany Bader: people are so hungry for this kind of thing.
I love the fact and anyone that doesn't know you're deboning a, a pig head and like making it the most delicious thing ever. So I love it.
Elias Ciaro: It's probably, you know, that the, the whole cookbook, I, it similar, I started that charcuterie chapter being like, start with not even having a grinder and make charcuterie for your family from ettes and rolling whole heads into it and cooking.
Yeah. It's blown my mind that how many people have made that Copa de Testa where I get That's awesome. Pictures of every walk of life showing me them de-boning ahead. And I was like, yeah, I think I've won. Like that's way better than I could ever imagined us being here right
Tiffany Bader: now. Yep. A hundred percent.[00:34:00]
People like it make, it just makes me so happy, like. I, I recognize the fact that I'm probably a very different wife than a lot of my friends and my husband for years. Our, our neighbor prior to the golf ball washing guy was, uh, a butcher packer supply.
Elias Ciaro: Oh,
Tiffany Bader: cool. And so for, yeah, thank you. It was super cool.
So for years, any birthday Christmas present, it's like, oh, there's a brand new grinder under the tree, or You're getting a meat slicer.
Elias Ciaro: That's
Tiffany Bader: great. My friends were like, what is wrong with you? Like, so Christmas sucked for you. I was like, no. It, it doesn't, like, it's amazing. I've got a whole setup of butcher supply stuff.
It's,
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, it was cool.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Super cool.
Elias Ciaro: It's so, and especially with I, I'm assuming wild meats that you're, that you're processing with, it is one of the most rewarding tasks that you could ever do is create a latte or a simple comfy or a sausage out of something you've harvested and give it to somebody that doesn't get to eat it or doesn't frequently know how to go out and get these things and wash their mind.
Be like, how, why does it taste [00:35:00] so good? I don't like deer. I don't like.
Tiffany Bader: Oh, totally.
Elias Ciaro: Or key. And you're like, yes, it's very good.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I mean, like, who doesn't like sausages? I like You can
Elias Ciaro: sad people.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I really and truly like, you're really, I feel bad for people that don't appreciate that. Yeah. A, a friend of side note, uh, a friend of mine has never eaten a hot dog and that, that fact just blows my mind.
And, um, so a couple years ago for her birthday present, I presented her with a wooden box with these beautiful polished pebbles and a hot dog right in the middle of this. So she opened up this box and there's a hot dog there, so she could appreciate it.
Elias Ciaro: Did she eat it?
Tiffany Bader: But no she didn't.
Elias Ciaro: She doesn't, she doesn't eat meat or just, no,
Tiffany Bader: no, no.
She does. She does. She just never ate a hot dog before.
Elias Ciaro: Give, can I ship her one of my Frank Fers and not call it a hot dog? And it's just a, if that slides by
Tiffany Bader: a hundred percent. Yeah. I'm sure she'd appreciate it.
Elias Ciaro: Great.
Tiffany Bader: And Carrie, just so you know, we're talking about [00:36:00] you right now.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Carrie, try the Frank Ferter.
It's not a hot dog.
Tiffany Bader: We chatted about transparency in meat producers. Mm-hmm. And pigs being like notoriously bad for being raised horribly. Mm-hmm.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Do you see like beef and chicken and some of the other animals that like grass fed beef and, you know, pasture raised chickens, they seem to have been given more attention and better raised lately.
What is it about pigs you think that they seem to be sort of falling by the wayside.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. You know, it's a, I'm so happy you recognize that. 'cause that's just giving me hope that other people are gonna, gonna recognize this in the world and. You know, it's a, it's, it's, it's just a huge debate in my life and I, it was that way with chicken.
And so I hope it'll eventually get there. Like, you, you'll still hear people brag about a dollar 50 pork chop and you're just like, uh, but you, you would never do that anymore with chicken breasts. Like, you understand, if you [00:37:00] care about sourcing, you're gonna care. And I, I do think that pork is the last one.
People expect pork to be very, very cheap for whatever reason. And I mean, I do understand that it breeds quickly and it does come to market. That's the reason that they've done it and they've done it, a masterful job of greenwashing it and making you feel good about your sourcing for pork. Um, and we'll eventually get past that.
I, I, I don't have the right answer for that, you know, and I think that's probably the reason why I'm so frustrated and so vocal. A a about it because, you know, I understand people in every price point in the world needing to eat protein. And I understand pork should be for some people doing there, but it really frustrates me when people have the beans and a little bit more wealth and are trying to buy good that they're still getting ripped off and they're buying the same pork or the same source pork as the cheapest stuff, but paying 75% more just because the label's different.
And that [00:38:00] is the pork industry in a nutshell. And more and more label transparency. More and more people, more and more people like you having 'em on a podcast talking about it and bringing it up. And eventually it will be, you know? Yeah. And it goes in both ways, you know, um, label transparency and actual having true label verification, hopefully at some point in the next decade will be.
Light years ahead. It's going in the wrong direction right now with not having to choose your true sourcing and being able to say it can come from out of America, no longer having to say American made beef, pork, so on and so forth. So it's going one step in the back. Um, but if you really do care, go to the, go to the farmer's market, try to meet a farmer.
If you're fortunate enough, go to a respectable butcher. Look for gap certification. Start asking more honest questions about where your pork is coming from. And if somebody just is using catch phrases like heritage or antibiotic free, [00:39:00] dig a little deeper because most likely it's a tortured animal that you could be buying a way cheaper product from.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. You do see that heritage, heritage with pork all the time. They're like the damn Berkshire pork.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Heritage breed.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: You're like, come on, what does that, what does that really mean? And the, I think further to that problem is like. A lot of butchers just don't know
Elias Ciaro: exactly. Oh, I chefs. Yeah. Or, you know, I'm baffled when I go into some place and I'll be like, who are you sourcing?
And they'll, they'll be like, oh, I have this amazing Berkshire de rock heritage breed. And I was like, okay, great. Let's just look at the sourcing of that. Yeah. I always say a heritage animal. Without sourcing, you're just agreeing to, uh, a puppy and a puppy mill. These animals have amazing genetics and should be, all of them, should be out on a field rummaging and doing their exercise.
It's like putting a bird dog in a, in a puppy mill, right? Those dogs are supposed to run thousands of miles or retrieve and all these things, and you're putting 'em in confinement. So it's [00:40:00] more heartbreaking. But people just don't look past that and it's, I get it. It's, they don't want to, and you're not, you're, I will a hundred percent improve it a thousand times over.
A Duroc does not taste any different than a, an American pink pig in confinement. They are fed the same diet. It's all corn and it, they don't exercise. And so unless you're feeding 'em acorns or something in confinement, it just tastes like pink pork. So you're just paying the premium for a name.
Tiffany Bader: I think people just don't know to ask, or, or I think they think they've been told you should get heritage pork.
Mm-hmm. And so looking beyond that doesn't even, doesn't even occur to them that like they feel like they're doing a good job and you can't blame the consumer for that because why would they know any better when they're just being fed this line that like all pork's the same except for these heritage breeds.
And that's what you buy and you should pay three times as much and it's better. And no one, no one cares, right?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. [00:41:00] Even on the farmers, I still have sympathy for them. You know, they were, they were sold a bill of goods in the Midwest, you know, where they were like their great-grandfather bid into this confinement operation for ease and profit.
And so now they gotta make it marketable. And, you know, I think the cattle and the sheep guys had a, had a different angle. They've always been more or less on pasture than finished in feedlots. So their, their path to more responsible sourcing was just skip the feedlot. You know, yeah, skip those things.
But these poor pig farmers, I mean, they have a lot of debt. They have infrastructure and how they manage, and now generational knowledge on how to raise, raise pigs in confinement. So they're doing everything to protect that in the, you know, the, the, the chicken guys, they did it, right? Americans or whoever, the consumer masses really wanted better transparency into eggs and chicken.
And so they demanded that and they started getting it. It's still not there completely. There's not a lot of. Pasture raised, true chickens [00:42:00] out there are actually seeing the light of day and, but it's getting there. And so, you know, I, I have sympathy for everybody. I don't think it needs, I just wish it could just be honest and people could, you know, spend their, do their dollars.
In where they think their money's going. And that's, that's the first step is, you know, if you are lucky enough to live in an area that has a small pig farmer doing it right, make him your pal. He has an uphill battle by his pigs.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. The old, the old pig farmer, I don't know if you're familiar with, uh, current events in our area, but it doesn't come with a good connotation that there's, there's some, there's some backstory.
I, I won't even get into it, but, uh, really? Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty gruesome, but, uh, no, nobody wants a pig farmer in their backyard around here. But, but in, in re in reality, yeah. Like it's, you gotta, you do, you kind of have to talk to your, you gotta go direct to source 'cause mm-hmm. The government doesn't seem to be mandating the [00:43:00] rules in a way where you gov or companies can get around it.
Right. They just, just keep circumventing, they make up new terms and things, new marketing terms. People don't know any better
Elias Ciaro: for sure. And I, you know, just a moment to plug Gap, global Animal Partnership, that auditing body, I think that they're a true, genuine, I know they're doing a, a great job because they've held my farmers accountable.
You know, they've, it's, it's a rating system, so it's one of the few auditing bodies I see out there that are completely honest.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Elias Ciaro: The Certified Humane and there's a few of the other pork plus projects out there where it's just not, not honest and not transparent
Tiffany Bader: really. Okay.
Elias Ciaro: So Gap, yeah, GAP is the one certified humane, for example, what a lot of the larger, uh, farmers out there will do is you have to have one farm that is certified humane, and let's take a larger co-op in the Midwest where they have probably 20 or the 30 farms in there.
One of those 30 may be [00:44:00] certified humane, the other 30. So the vast majority of their pro, their pork is still confinement. S that
Tiffany Bader: Okay.
Elias Ciaro: Another loophole.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Yeah. It's, I
Elias Ciaro: had no clue we were gonna be talking this much about pork and pork farming, but I'm loving it. I hope you're good.
Tiffany Bader: No, no, no, no. We can, we can totally switch.
I was just looking at my notes. I was like, great. No,
Elias Ciaro: this is my life the way I'm super happy.
Tiffany Bader: My goal, for me, first and foremost, like I am totally fueled by my own interest in the subject, and like, I, I, I'm interested. For me, I find it amazing that, that you built a product and, but then also had to go backwards and like, set up the systems to bring you the ingredients you can make your product.
I find that totally fascinating when, when everything is built in a way to go against that, right? Like, it, I, I can't even imagine the frustration and. You know, I guess determination on your side as well, just to be like, God [00:45:00] dammit, I'm just gonna do it. I gotta do it.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. You know,
Tiffany Bader: but
Elias Ciaro: sleeping with a clear conscience is huge on my life, not pulling the wool over their eyes.
And I'm, I'm completely obsessed with making high quality stuff.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: I genuinely mean that. So people that surround me, I, I've always said that too. You know, if, if I ever start wavering or ever go winky, winky on something, I hope every one of my employees walk out on me. 'cause that's, yeah. That's the way it should be.
You know, I, I think that they came, A lot of people work here because we try to make the best products and possibly can. And that's, that, that's what fires me up every day to come into work. Or I would just be lying and probably have way more time, probably have way more time to hunt.
Tiffany Bader: So total side, side step to a completely different, uh, topic.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: More sausage related.
Elias Ciaro: Great.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, what do you think about collagen casings?
Elias Ciaro: Collagen casings have their place, you know? Yeah, for sure. If you're, uh, if you're, if you're, you know, that's just a different style and [00:46:00] art to it. It's utilizing a different part of the animal that it is, like if you're making a big deli piece or, uh, a different product, it's, it doesn't bother me.
Yeah. Even in, in the world of smoke sticks now there's, there's a lot of, uh, products out there that are made for it. You know, I, I, I prefer natural casing strictly because of mouth fill and texture and the way that it adheres smoke and the flavor. It's just so much na more natural. Uh, yeah. And, and, and that's a fascinating thing too, 'cause I've been diving deeply in the last two years into smoke sticks and, and working with other partners to produce smoke sticks for them.
Um, and I can, you know, where I'm in my head, I can taste 'em, everybody else can taste the difference. And I'm, I'm seeing them and I'll take 'em to people that I don't consider a meat expert and they still notice. Yeah. Like, they'll be like, Ooh, I don't know what it is, but I still prefer this natural one or this one that I am the only one that know that it's a natural casing and, and that, I don't know, I can't tell exactly what it [00:47:00] is.
Is it flavor, is it texture? Is it the way that the, the smoke interacts with the meat or the fermentation happens, but from a pure enjoyment, collagen hasn't quite got to the, the layer of, uh, you know, enjoyment that you can do from a natural, but from a price point, it's,
Tiffany Bader: yeah. I mean, like, who wants to buy sheet casings when you can get collagen, but
Elias Ciaro: yeah,
Tiffany Bader: they're, I just, yeah, I, I wasn't sure if it was like a me thing.
I've tried them a number of times and I just can't.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: be successful with them. I'm always unhappy with the end product.
Elias Ciaro: Way more difficult for a home user. Yeah. Way. Like there's so much si or, uh, tricks. I wouldn't say science and you need a higher humidity and a way to chart the cooking and cooling things and all those tricks that go along in that.
And also if, if you're, a lot of the collagen is based off of a 30% fat content and a, to make them tenderize. And there's just so much in that, that it's made for mass production, I would say for a lot more faster. The main reason people utilize 'em in the meat [00:48:00] industry is 'cause of the stuffing. It, you don't, you can just put it in a machine, plug it in, and then 200 sausages a minute come out pretty, pretty easily.
Tiffany Bader: You, you don't get that midway through hole in one of the casings and you're like, like explodes all over your counter and you gotta like.
There's nothing more frustrating than that. You're like, oh my gosh.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: I guess I'm frying up free from sausages right now.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, exactly. But you know, like there, I've met so many amazing, or I've been fortunate enough to eat a bunch of like amazing Midwestern summer sausage guys that are Yeah. Collagen guys.
And you're like, wow, that is absolutely perfect. Yeah. Like, I don't know how you did it and don't change a dang thing, but like, that is better than I can do, my friend. So carry on. Yeah. Fascinating.
Tiffany Bader: I think I'll just stick on the natural route for now.
Elias Ciaro: I, I'm obviously a, a huge fan, especially for home. You know, like if you're cranking out 60 pound batch [00:49:00] of bratwurst or salami or something like that, take the time and enjoy it.
Like,
Tiffany Bader: yeah,
Elias Ciaro: not, you're not, there's other things you gotta hustle through. This one. Just enjoy, go slow. I think.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, I mean sauce. I think sausages in general are not like a. Hustle through process for most people.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: You're investing some time.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: And energy and money and Yeah. All of it. You gotta, you gotta love it.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, exactly. There's easier ways to get breakfast sausage and that's called
Tiffany Bader: think so? I think so,
Elias Ciaro: yeah.
Tiffany Bader: So do you do, are you. Like, are there any new products coming down the line? You're always looking at making new stuff or,
Elias Ciaro: yeah, no, I'm always luckily able to keep innovating. Um, yeah, I think what's really exciting right now is I'm, uh, I'm able to work with a few more partners out there that are different species and doing it right from Buffalo that is never, that is field harvested, um, to [00:50:00] deer that are field harvested, to utilizing my skillset and what my plant and everything has to support other farmers or other producers out there.
Um, but yeah, I think that, that the next three or four years I've done a lot with pork and now you might not see it necessarily in my brand per se, but I'll be using my skillset to help other products out there. Um, like currently, I'm, are you familiar with who Maui Nui is?
Tiffany Bader: Maui? I don't think so.
Elias Ciaro: Maui Newi is the Access.
Deer Harvesters, wild Harvest Access. Deer on the Island of Maui.
Tiffany Bader: Yes.
Elias Ciaro: Yes. It's so they came to me, oh gosh, probably four years ago with their problem of like, Hey, we have all of the deer and we have a producer here, and they're running into all these. Problems. Would you ever entertain it? And I've been strictly, no, I wanna focus on my company.
Um, and I was fortunate enough to like hear about what they did and read what they were doing. And they are [00:51:00] actually hunting deer every night and using NASA to find deer and all this great stuff. And their mission is so important to, you know, yeah, the natural fauna and the animals that are out there.
And anything I can do to support something like that has been amazing. And then it allows me guiltily, because I love making deer sausage to play with thousands of pounds of deer sausage. And so. I create these unbelievable sausages, like God that sounded so arrogant, I think are very delicious sausages.
These people that allow, that allow them to focus on hunting and marketing what they have to do. And then hopefully bringing to market a very great product. And same as like the buffalo people, wild ideas buffalo in the Midwest. We've been working with them to try to create a, a product to bring them to market.
'cause they're field harvesting buffalo on the buffalo grass gap land that are using to bring, you know, using the buffalo to replace the beef market there. That's allowing natural birds to get back out there. And I mean, that's really rewarding work for me.
Tiffany Bader: Bet. Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: And [00:52:00] it's, it's just unbelievable meat.
Tiffany Bader: So are you, are you able to like, get over to Maui and, and actually hunt some of the access deer and, or like,
Elias Ciaro: I haven't
Tiffany Bader: done it, do some bird hunting?
Elias Ciaro: I haven't done it yet, no, because I, I want the product to come into market and I want it to really establish, right now I'm making their summer sausage for Maui and they're doing all of these things, but I want it to, uh, to fully come in.
But yeah, I can't wait. I'm gonna take poly, my qa, qc tech that's worked with me for ahead of it and he's been with me for 16 years and we love going into other meat plants and cutting meat and making sausages. And so if there's an opportunity to go out there and hunt, access a, I can't wait to do that.
But also harvest it with a bunch of guys that do 45 to 50 deer a night is rainy. Rainy for me. That's
Tiffany Bader: super cool.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, it would be fun.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, do you, do you bow hunt?
Elias Ciaro: I do.
Tiffany Bader: Or, yeah. I, I would, I, would I take a bow?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. That's what I hear in like 50,000 [00:53:00] arrows or something like that.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. So my husband and I went access deer hunting in Moloka, and we ended up being very selective and still getting four deer in one day.
Oh. And at the end of it, we're like, okay. It was amazing. Mm-hmm. The meat is spectacular. It was so much fun. It was such a cool hunt for us. Like, ba being based in BC we, we typically do a certain, like, we're out swamps hunting moose or like out in the mountains and things like that. So to be able to hunt in Molokai was a pretty cool experience.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Um, but at the end of it, we're like, next time we're bringing bows, like the rifle rifle hunting you, you can, you can take them from too far away. We want it to be closer to them.
Elias Ciaro: So yeah. It's, and, and just the way that I've heard that those deer interact just super high strung and it definitely seems like it would be.
The ultimate challenge. I'll probably, I mean, I will, I will definitely take a bow, but I I, I'm not coming home empty handed if they too No,
Tiffany Bader: no, no, [00:54:00] no.
Elias Ciaro: Lay no very happy. And yeah, the opportunity to do it with those guys, get a hunter every single night. I'm, I'm pretty excited to see how that is. And boy, I love that meat, that whatever they are, whatever, however they're harvesting 'em, their, their technique of hanging 'em overnight and all the way there it is.
It's a special product. It, it's a real, real cool thing they're doing.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I've never seen someone break down an animal faster than, than that guy, the guy that we hunted with in Molokai. It was just, it was insane. It was, it was insane. But, uh, yeah, it was super, super cool experience. But, um.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, I mean, every time I'm with a guy or fortunate enough to hunt with somebody that gets to field dress hundreds of animals a day, I'm always like, man, I've been butchering my whole life and I suck.
Like not at a table waist height, like on a cutting board with a de-bone, or like, I'm not gonna pretend I could skin nearly as as great [00:55:00] clean. And yeah, I was fortunate enough to hunt with an amazing friend in Oregon. Uh, she got an extra cow tag and she took me along and we shot a cow. And I was like, I, I like, I, I suck at this.
Like, who are you? It's,
Tiffany Bader: it's forever humbling, like. I, every time I see someone do it, it's something different. Yeah. And so I feel like I'm always learning something, you know, someone's doing something different. And I went bear hunting last spring with a friend and he took, he's like, do you take the call fat?
I'm like, no, I don't. What's wrong with me? I never take the call fat. He is like, oh, here and gives me a big, massive all fat. And I'm like, what's wrong with me? I can't believe I never took it before. And
Elias Ciaro: yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, always something cross
Elias Ciaro: the before, every time you get a hunt with a different person, or even from gosh, grouse to quail, to Turkey to be an elk, to bear anything, like just hunting with different people and seeing what they do or how they approach it is just so unbelievably fascinating.
Or the lack of it, or if that was somebody that is just horrified with eating a heart or a liver and being able to [00:56:00] show them that, you're like, man, you can make some very delicious things out of this. It's, it's really, oh, yeah. It's really fun. For sure.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I, I think I, I always, I always say food food's a way to get non-hunters to at least find our.
Are are not like what we do acceptable. Right. Yeah. Like I think that's the gateway into doing it through, through the stomach.
Elias Ciaro: Oh, easy. Yeah. And
that's
Elias Ciaro: luckily, yeah. A ate coming over to anybody's Christmas party right now. Christmas is around.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: To bring a ate of any animal that I've shot and watch people be like, what is this?
And yeah. It's it's ex animal with dried cherries. And you're like, whoa.
Tiffany Bader: Do you, so do you do a lot of, um, like I'm sure you're busy enough working every day at a, at your regular shop, but do you do a lot of wild game stuff in your free time?
Elias Ciaro: Oh yeah. Too much probably. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Really? Yeah. No, it's, it's, yeah. No, I'm [00:57:00] a nerd about me making. I, I live for it. I, yeah, every little bit of it.
I think that there's an ama, you know, when you're in the meat industry or a chef or anything, it's like, if you're truly fascinated by it, you get, you, you can get very complacent with just pork or with beef or whatever it is, and you're, and you're just get more interested with x, y, z animal. And so every time from a blacktail to a, a quail, to a mountain grouse, to anything like that, it, like, when it's in my fridge, I'm.
Fascinated with how it's going to taste, and I can't stop thinking and wanting to play with it. Trim. And you know, like, gosh, it's, it, it never gets old to me. I think it the people that are in the food world, chefs that I fortunately work with from every level that don't hunt and don't get out there, you know, once I start talking about the opportunity that I had to eat an old mountain goat and how it tasted, you see their eyes like, wait, what?
You gotta do what? I was like, yeah, man. Every year I probably get three or four animals that [00:58:00] I get to eat through. And they're all different. Some are old, some are young, some are in sagebrush, some are in the rainforest. And God, I shot a, you know, a, a grouse that was just eating gooseberries only and the meat tasted like bitter and tannic and they're just like, wait, what?
They, the meat, the flavor changes. And you're like, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. And, and for me it's the same. Like I, I love fermenting meat and I love smoking meat, and I love what that does and how that interacts with flavor. And so if I have a, a cow elk that I shot, how does that taste fermented? How does that taste?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Slow cooked and Yeah, and I'm, I still learn every, quite often when I'm cooking, you know, like, eh, whenever I get to cook wild game, it's the ultimate test for me. Mm-hmm. If you're really, really good at what you're doing and can make great food, do it with something that's wild out there that's not been bred to be perfectly delicious and decadent, you know?
I'm lucky enough to, uh, hunt with some people that are great chefs that are unbelievable and watch them handle animals [00:59:00] from, uh, uh, the Canadian, um, chef. Oh my gosh, how am I, Jeremy Charles, are you familiar with it?
Tiffany Bader: Yes. He's amazing. From Newfoundland?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. He, he, and watching him cook Todd the first time of my life and being, yeah, like I don't know if I've ever cooked a fish.
Like, who are you? Or Justin Griffiths with Turkey hunting and yeah. Watching him do anything with pork and I'm like, oh my God. Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: he's amazing.
Elias Ciaro: So good at this. It's so, it's so exciting and I think all those guys that I, I'm lucky enough to cook and hunt with and, and any time with them watching everybody get excited about any animal or wild piece of meat is, it just still fires me up.
I've been cooking in, in this meat world since I was. 10 years old.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: You need things to fuel your fire. At least I do. And that's what's doing it. And it has fun forever.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Wild game's great for that. You never quite know what you're gonna get. Right. It's like the, the joy of opening up a, the crop on a grouse and being like, oh, what have you even eaten it.
Like, never ceases to amaze me. I'm like, it's [01:00:00] full of clover. Like, it's always full of clover, but like, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I, I get so excited by it.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. It's
Tiffany Bader: awesome.
Elias Ciaro: Or chucker or, gosh, I, you know, my wife when I, when I blow cooking something and it's true or just didn't get flavorful to be like, oh, challenge accepted love.
I, I will get you to love this. Such scary.
Tiffany Bader: Totally. Oh my God. I'm the same with my husband. He like, there's, he hated Thanksgiving. And I'm like, I like, it was the same day I'd just come home from a, a shift at work. Long shift in the kitchen, came home and he is like, yeah, no, it's, I hate Thanksgiving. I'm.
What, like, how am I just learning this now? No, I'm gonna make you Thanksgiving dinner right now. And like Yeah. Just made him Thanksgiving dinner and ever since. He's like, I love it. Yeah. But I, I need, I need that challenge of like,
Elias Ciaro: oh yeah,
Tiffany Bader: no, you don't like it. You, you don't like gross. Okay. Well we're gonna, I'm gonna show you why, why, why Gross is awesome.
Elias Ciaro: My wife told me probably seven years ago that she didn't like gravy. And I was like, well, [01:01:00]
Tiffany Bader: come on.
Elias Ciaro: How, how bad, how did somebody make gravy so bad that they ruined you on gravy?
Tiffany Bader: It's someone's fault. It's it's not her. Is it someone's fault?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's just an unh hateable thing.
Tiffany Bader: No, totally. So does she, how does she feel about gravy now?
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Yeah. You go pick a, a truckload of chanterelles and you had brown flour and you
Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: there you go.
Elias Ciaro: Get in stock and you make a gravy outta that, and you're like, well, you hate this. We're probably gonna break up. So,
Tiffany Bader: yeah.
Yep. No, that's, that's true. My husband hates oatmeal and I'm o I'm okay with them hating oatmeal. That's, that's an acceptable thing.
Elias Ciaro: That's a textural
Tiffany Bader: thing. That's fine.
Elias Ciaro: It's a challenge. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Oh, totally. But aside from that. They were good.
Yeah. It's funny, it's funny what drives you, you know, it's like, and, and I don't understand. I used to work with guys that would, you know, they work in the kitchen all day and then they go home and they'd eat Japanese food. Like, I, I get you want something different. But the ones [01:02:00] that didn't go home and cook, I just, I'm like, I don't think we can be friends.
Yeah. I just, I don't get it.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. It's,
Tiffany Bader: it's,
Elias Ciaro: there is a difference between a line cooking and cooking, you know? Yeah. I think that there's, there's a lot of mi like there's a, there's a ton of amazing line cooks out there
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: That aren't great cooks that can't, that can't come into a kitchen and make you something very, very good.
But they're gonna, and I'm a horrible line cook in their defense. Yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Oh yeah. No,
Elias Ciaro: I'm not bang it out a hundred brunches right now anymore. Those days are gone. Like I, my capacity, I'd be a frazzled wreck and my station would look like a fricking car wreck. Like those days are way beyond me. I can't do that anymore.
Tiffany Bader: I still have anxiety thinking about being on Grill Station and like all the stakes lined up. I'm like, oh no, no.
Elias Ciaro: Isn't that, isn't that, that's a, that's a something I wish every person could experience once in their life. Losing yourself with a grill full and being like, how many errors do I got on media rule?[01:03:00]
Tiffany Bader: Your mind just goes blank and you look over, you're like, oh crap, I gotta count to eight again. And you like, turn around and stand in my station. Like,
Elias Ciaro: start over and let's go ahead. Yeah. Then I mean, I'm fortunate enough I still own and I gotta go into restaurants quite a bit that I operate and watching them being out of busy service, I'm like, wow, experts like,
Tiffany Bader: yeah.
Elias Ciaro: So good at what you do there.
Tiffany Bader: No. Totally. I
Elias Ciaro: suck at that stuff now. I'm way good at making sausage. That's all I thank God. Gonna do now.
Tiffany Bader: I mean, there's only so many things, right? Like
Elias Ciaro: mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: You got, yeah. I, I think, I think you've hit, I've hit, you've hit the bar in sausage making. You don't need to beat yourself up too much about not being able to,
Elias Ciaro: I'm gonna keep
Tiffany Bader: the line
Elias Ciaro: anyway.
Better this, how about that? I just focus.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Forward momentum.
Elias Ciaro: Mm-hmm.
Tiffany Bader: Yep. Absolutely.
Elias Ciaro: That's the goal.
Tiffany Bader: Well, um, was there anything else you wanna chat about?
Elias Ciaro: No, this has been great. No, I wanna, I wanna know, I'll, I'll follow up with you with what you guys get a hunt up there and what, what [01:04:00] drags you Yeah.
And all that stuff. At some point, I would love to know how lucky you are to hunt there.
Tiffany Bader: Well, I mean, I could, I can tell you now where like, it's, it's still wa Yeah, yeah. Still, still waterfowl season. Uh, so we're getting out as much as we can. It's, it's kind of late, but, um. The birds are a little bit smarter than they were mm-hmm.
Back in October. Wow. Yeah. We're still getting out for, for ducks and geese. Uh,
Elias Ciaro: is it on the ocean or is it ponds or,
Tiffany Bader: yeah, so we're, we're super lucky where we live, we're like a 10 minute drive from, uh, like straight out looking out in the, the ocean, so.
Elias Ciaro: Oh, wow.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, we're, we're right on the foreshore. Um, my husband's a member of a private club that has like a, a cabin, so we just drive right up, walk out into foreshore, into the blinds.
So we're pretty privileged in that, in that respect. Um, yeah. Yeah. We, um, I think that's it for our season now though. I think we're, um, we've, we had a very busy fall with hunting in Sweden and moose hunting and [01:05:00] amazing elk hunting and deer. But BC yeah, we can hunt. Like it runs a gamut. We've got the biggest population of wild goats.
In the world. Uh, yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Goat year yearly.
Tiffany Bader: Uh, yeah, there's open seasons for goat.
Elias Ciaro: Oh my
Tiffany Bader: goodness. So you don't have to get a, you don't have to win a lottery. Uh, there's mountain, uh, there's sheep, there's goats, moose bear, only black bear. But, uh, bear three types of deer, mule deer, white tail and black tail. And then smaller game, all the birds and yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Oh God. It sounds
Tiffany Bader: a little, there's a lot of stuff
Elias Ciaro: and there's,
Tiffany Bader: yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Zero fishing, zero.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. I know. The fishing's terrible here too. You know, it's just, it's just awful. We don't have any fish in our lakes or rivers or on the ocean, so. Yeah.
Elias Ciaro: Well, if you ever get a sausage maker to move up there as a citizen, I'll think about it.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Honestly, you should, you should come up. We're, uh, I mean, [01:06:00] there's, there's rarely a time of the year where we're not trying to catch some, something, you know, furry or covered in. Covered in scales.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah, that sounds ideal. That would be amazing. And when you guys come back down this way, if you, um, drive through Oregon and you don't stop by, your car blows up.
Tiffany Bader: Oh yeah. You know what, my, my daughter actually has been, she's been bugging me to go to Portland. I don't know what it is. There's something in Portland she wants to check out, so.
Elias Ciaro: Great.
Tiffany Bader: I mean that like I've been wanting to come check out your shop anyway. But uh, yeah,
Elias Ciaro: please, I'd love, I love sharing. I'll bring her along around the restaurant one way restaurants is two blocks to the south, so come get a tour, we'll load you up and we can get out and do something fun if you'd like.
And yeah, go eat and enjoy ourselves.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, that sounds amazing.
Elias Ciaro: Awesome.
Tiffany Bader: Cool. Okay, well thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And uh, yeah, well, I'm sure we'll see you soon.
Elias Ciaro: Yeah. Heck yeah. Thanks so much for having me. You're great at this. It was a blast. I hope I covered what you wanted to, and if you have any other questions, reach out.
Thanks everybody. Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: absolutely. [01:07:00] Thank you so much. Yeah,
Elias Ciaro: have a good one.