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Welcome to Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s podcast series that explores the freshest ideas in agriculture and food. Each episode explores a single topic in depth—digging deep into new practices, innovative ideas, and their impacts on the industry. Learn about Canada’s agricultural sector from the people making the breakthroughs and knocking down the barriers! Farmers and foodies, scientists and leaders, and anyone with an eye on the future of the sector—this podcast is for you!
Chuck: My vision of robotics is that we can do this better in some way. You know, can we improve soil health by having a lighter machine? Can we reduce inputs if it's required? Can we prevent people from having to work in fields in 35 degree weather in the hot sun? I think that's the that's the kind of the vision and the goal that that a lot of us in this space see and think. Farmers get very excited about that.
Marie-France: Who wouldn’t get excited about that?
Kirk: We certainly are. Welcome to the First Sixteen. I am Kirk Finken.
Marie-France: And I am Marie-France Gagnon. When we first thought about this episode, we were thinking of robotics and automation as a solution to the labour shortage.
Kirk: But after our first interview with ag-robotics specialist, Chuck Baresich, it became about so much more. -
Marie-France: Chuck and his brother farm corn and soybeans in southern Ontario. They have an agronomy service on the side. And, on top of that, Chuck is the president and founder of Hagardy AgRobotics, a leader in the emerging agriculture robotics and automation industry.
Chuck: I think the adoption curve is going to be much quicker. This this move to adoption in robotics is going to be much faster than, you know, tractors were than, you know, automobiles where this kind of thing like it's like we're talking ten years or less, not 50 years, in my opinion.
Kirk: And if he is right, it begged the question…
Marie France: What are we doing here at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada to be ready for some of these innovations? How are we supporting the sector as it rides this adoption curve? So in the second half of our episode, Marco Valicenti, Director General of Innovation Programs Directorate and Brett Maxwell a Director in our Strategic policy branch will help answer those questions.
Kirk : Lets get into it. So Chuck, why Agriculture and robotics?
Chuck: I've always I guess I grew up in agriculture and I've always wanted to be in the agriculture space and, and I've also always really liked technology. I've been kind of the, you know, you know, I was the guy with the calculator watch. I was the guy who loved all the science fiction stuff and what I am not is am not the person who buys the new gadget just to have the new gadget.
What I'm interested in does that piece of tech improves something? Does it does it actually, you know, step up our game? That's really what drives me is can we make improvements?
Kirk: It’s not the looks, it’s how it cooks! Tell us about your robotics company?
Chuck: What our what our robotics company does is we try to stay very close to the ground level with farmers. And we spend time figuring out what those farmers actually need done. So, you know, whether it is removing a weed or whether it's carrying an apple bin, whatever that task might be. And then from there, we look across what technology exists as a platform. And then we figure out what tool to put on that platform to solve that farmers problem.
So step one is determining, can we actually do it? So we have a variety of platforms. It starts from the very small. So we have a, you know, we have a drone, we have. You know, several NIAL OS products that are that are very small, like the size of a wheelbarrow. Then we, you know, we kind of step up into some medium sized robots like the Farm Droid or the Nexus from Montreal or the Nia Oro. Um. And then we actually commissioned two robots ourselves through a company called Karachi that are again task robots that are just generic platforms. -
----So it'll be a platform which is produced by a company whether we commission it or whether we just purchase it. It'll be a set of tooling that we modify as part of our company. As we see, our job is to actually turn the platform and the tooling into a solution. That's what we do.
So in 2023, we will have 18 robots in the field here in Ontario underneath that model.
Marie-France: Amazing! In some of your presentations you talk about the work you have done in precision Ag but how did you start thinking about incorporating automation on your farm?
Chuck: Well, I guess one of the, one of the real definitions is what is automation actually even mean? And I think labor for my brother and I has always been a challenge. And so, you know, one of the reasons why we no till is that it takes less work, it's less labor. And we've always looked for ways that that we can can automate something as part of our processes, whether it's an auto steer in the tractor, a rate controller on the tractor. Our, our sprayer that we have, for example has it also has a vision camera on it that when it sees crop rows, we just let go of the steering wheel and it drives between those rows. At the end of the field, when you slow down with the hydrostatic, it turns around on the headland all on its own and then it's actually doing all of its application automatically.
It makes you wonder why I'm even in the seat.
I've always been following, you know, the development of robotics like like actual field robots. And I'm not talking about robots like in a dairy barn or in a greenhouse or these types of things. I'm thinking of robots that are out in the wild and kind of set free. And what I realized quickly is that there wasn't that many of them that were actually commercially ready, which really surprised me.
Kirk: Ok so an autonomous robot vs automation in say your sprayer. So then when did you first get to see one of these robots in the wild and as you say…set free?
Chuck: So the first, my first experience getting up close to one was in 2019 at the Outdoor Farm show when the DOT when Seed Master brought their DOT to Woodstock and I got to see it firsthand and I liked it. And so then I actually flew to Saskatchewan about a month later and toured, it around the farm. And what that did is I got to see this robot in almost like in its natural environment. It was dirty. They were filling it up with fertilizer. It was cold and windy out. So you got to kind of see what would it be like to have a robot on my farm? And I thought, so. I said, You know what, I think this is one I can get my head around. So 2020, we got our we got the DOT, which is now called a Raven omni power.
And that was our first step from, you know, automation into an autonomous robot that would be 2020 would be our first, you know, kind of dipping our toe in in a big way.
Kirk: 2020, that doesn’t feel too long ago. How new is robotics technology in Agriculture ?
Chuck: ---Yes it sounds like it's new, but truthfully, that was one of the only robots that was available to get, you know, so think we're all new in this space. And, you know, obviously, I grew up watching Star Wars and and, I've always wanted my own R2-D2 and C-3PO combination. And so when you grow up in that mindset, you come up with this idea that that robotics is so far, like, much more advanced than it really is, you know, what is actually, you know, theoretically possible versus what my mind thinks is possible.
Marie France: It brings us back to earth a little. So you have a good deal of experience with these autonomous robots now. When you bring these systems onto farms what is the first challenge? --
Chuck: Well, I think like one of the first things I specifically didn't realize here is you know, and I'm going to use this term is generational intelligence, generational knowledge. And one of the things that, you know, a lot of us that are in the agriculture industry, we call it, farm kid smarts.
And you because you grow up around the machinery and around the farming operation, these things you just do certain things. And so people just know that on May the 5th, this is what you're doing. You're employees, you're doing this and you're getting this piece of equipment ready and this these things just sort of happen.
So the first step that happens with a with an autonomous machine is now you actually have to communicate what's in your head into a software language or into a machine. And that's challenging enough. But the most challenging part is actually trying to to write down and document the stuff that I know.
You know, how do you how do you know that that field is ready to go into? How do you know how fast to drive? Right. So these little details are so challenging.
Kirk: So so you're telling me that it's almost a bit of a an existential shift that you're having to make to ask yourself, are you doing the right thing? And and how do you explain in it in detail to the to this new, if you will, laborer that's on your farm.
Chuck: That's that's correct. And then so then when you so then when you have a good understanding as to what you're doing, that's when you can start to look at, well, which one of those jobs do I actually need a person to do and which one of those jobs can a machine do.
Kirk: So specifically speaking about say field crop operations. Do you feel that automation is a viable solution to the labor shortage issue? Or am I asking the wrong question here?
Chuck: Well, I think I think everyone is asking that question. And I think it's a real common challenge. And it's not the labor. Like when you first ask a farmer what is your biggest issue? They'll tell you that it's labor. Well, why is labor an issue? Well, labor is an issue because I have weeds that I can't control, for example. Okay, well, that's good. So you kind of drill down a little bit. So then you say, well, is it the cost of the labor? But the truth of the matter is, it's not that the labor is costing too much. It's as a farmer, I don't have the confidence that I can get the sufficient amount of labor to do what needs to be done in in a timely manner. So the reason why labor is an issue and why automation is so attractive or so appealing is that, you know, on most farms we only need high amounts of labor for short periods of time. You know, farms especially field crop operations are not factories. They're outside, we have a limited window. And, you know, if you are an apple farmer and you have to spray an oil or something to protect against bugs on the on your orchard, you have a very, very short window to get that done. And if it doesn't get done in that window, there's no going back tomorrow. Like, that's it for the season. And so if you don't have your labor in place to, to accomplish that job, then then the cost is so high.
Kirk: Yeah. I mean, they can have a bumper crop of strawberries. I mean, they put their, you know, a whole lot of work into making sure that all of the elements are working in their favor and then they don't have any people to pick them.
Chuck: We were at a farm last Thursday up at north of Toronto, and, you know, this farmer farms less than we do, but he has his equipment is three times the size of what we have. H-e's not trying to show off and he's not you know, he's looking at his calendar and every time he looks at his calendar, it gets more and more compressed. I got to get this done and get this done. And I only have this much labor to get it done. So how am I going to make that happen and still meet the criteria of weather? So so farmers are so over scaled in equipment to meet that window. If you could remove the labor requirement and you could say, okay, we can put some robots in here who can work 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Marie France: Yeah the shift in thinking about equipment size and time frame. for harvest also takes some mental gymnastics. That is so interesting and leads us to one of the questions that ‘s always on our minds when we talk about robots and automation. Will robots replace workers on farms?
Chuck: Well, I think when you when you know, when people talk to me about labor and our robots going to replace human workers, I think the first challenge is, is I don't know any farmers who have a surplus amount of workers that they want to get rid of. Most farmers don't have enough. And. The issue that we've got is, you know, can we can we optimise the value of the workers that I have? So like in our in our business, we have put together an autonomous robot that will scan fields for our agronomy company because when I look at my crop specialists and my employees I don't think that that paying them to ride in a four wheeler and bouncing across a field at eight miles an hour for eight hours a day is really the most effective use of their university education. I think I would rather have them talking to a customer or looking at a soil map or doing something else while the robot is actually doing the scanning. And so it's about, maximizing the value of that employee, having them do the most productive job rather than just any job.
Marie-France I get the sense from how you are framing this all, which is a bit counter-intuitive, that maybe smaller operations might benefit from this shift a lot faster?
Chuck: So I think I think to start with and when we when we when we look at the size of farmer, sort of across the board, irregardless of crop, the interest in robotics is actually more so in the, the smaller to medium sized farming operations, more so than some of the larger ones.
And if you think about it, if you are a large grain farmer, let's say in Saskatchewan, that is growing, you know, 20,000 acres of a crop or something like that. You've got such large equipment that labor is your lowest cost. They might be challenging, but the labor costs aren't that high to grow those crops. Likewise, if you are a large vegetable production operation, for example, you have invested so much, you will have an HR department, you're going to have a, like a whole system in place to deal with labor. That labor is challenging but it’s a process of what you do.
Now you flip that around and let's say that you're a thousand acre cash crop in Ontario growing corn and soybeans, and you don't have anybody to run your grain cart in the fall. Right. It's very, very hard to hire somebody to operate a grain cart, which is not a fun job for three weeks, for long hours. How do you train that person? Where do you find them? How much do you pay them? So a person like that starts looking at, boy, if I could have a machine that could actually pull that cart while I'm in the harvester. Wouldn't that be something? And likewise, if you're a smaller vegetable operation that isn't really big enough to have an HR department. Boy, if you could have 1 or 2 robots to come and help you do some weeding while you are out in the field, it's very, very attractive because, you're kind of at that size where you don't have the critical mass to, you know, to to get to that, to that level. And when we see where those questions are coming from, as a robotics company, if I put that hat back on.
Kirk: A big piece in all this is adoption. As with anything new, it’s resistance to change. Can you talk about that factor?
Chuck: I think one of the, one of the challenges is that while farmers are open to change, there's a lot of reason, there's a lot of inertia within your existing practices.
If I'm growing corn and soybeans, for example, if I make a mistake on my corn crop on a few acres, right. It's very low cost. But on some of these other crops, it's thousands and thousands of dollars per acre. It's their lifeblood. And the processes they've been doing now have been working pretty good, right? They've had good success. And so the resistance to change comes from that fear of what is it going to do to my bottom line.
Related to that is there's been a high investment in those farming operations, you know, so let's say that, you know, they've, they've bought expensive cultivators, tractors, sprayers they've invested heavily into this space. When you move to a robot, it makes all of what they've invested in somewhat obsolete. And so now they sit there and now got to invest again.
Kirk: Can you give us an example of the return on investment you have gotten when you have switched one of the processes in your operation over?
Chuck: The most of the work I have done has been on has been in horticulture crops, the ROI that I've done on field crops. My biggest experience has been in, in spreading like bulk products. So like from our agronomic companies perspective, when we used to spread or when we spread lime or limestone on fields, that was generally a two person job.
One person would drive out with the Terragator to do the spreading. The other person would drive out with the loader to load the interrogator in the field. And so now we do that with the robot. And so the so the person who drives a loader tows the robot out to the field and loads that, loads that robot and then lets it do the spreading. Basically it's taken that labor cost by half.
and it's not really so much about what that labor was worth. It's actually by the fact that as an agronomy company I often can't afford to have two people doing that job. I don't have them, you know, And, and when we're doing our soil testing we can double our acres per day, you know, in what gets tested And so when we have a short window to get this done right, we are doubling our productivity. So on a dollars per acre, maybe it doesn't make sense, but it actually gets more done and that's where the value comes in.
Kirk: So, the ROI is in the actual value-add.
Chuck: The ROI on weeding, for example, is a lot better. If we take a robot that costs, let's say $250,000 Canadian and that robot can look after a, let's say a 50 acre field oftentimes to we'd like to hand weed that 50 acre field. The farmer can spend $1,000 an acre on that 50 on that field. So we're looking at, you know, 5 or 6 years of payback on some of these machines. And so that all that all sounds not too bad, but one of the things that the farmers haven't really got their head around yet, or maybe some of them have, is that sometimes when they were paying $1,000 an acre for weeding the weeds were already so big that crop damage had occurred. But if the robot is out there looking after it, maybe those crops are better than what they would have been the other way around. So that's very difficult to measure. And we've actually got a project through the University of Guelph this year that's actually going to study that very question.
Marie-France: Looking forward to hearing the results of that study. And legacy-wise: Do you have any advice for producers interested in this space?
Chuck: The robotics industry in Canada, or the world I liken it to like 1910 Detroit in the automotive industry, where we have a lot of players, a lot of manufacturers, a lot of different ideas. At that time period in Detroit, there was electric cars, there was ethanol powered cars, there's gasoline cars, there was steam cars they had. And, you know, and nobody really knew which one was going to be the winner. And, and think people need to be patient. So for farmers especially, I like to tell them that, you know, they need to they need to dip their toe in the water to some degree. They need to look at something and say, um. You know what can I you know, what can I do to get my, you know, to least get started? Because think of it as if you wait too long. You're going to get left behind.
Kirk: Earlier in the episode, Chuck mentioned that the adoption of robotics is likely to happen in the next ten years.. Marie France, what about our department? How are we getting ready? How are we staying ahead of the curve and supporting those people in our sector looking to -- as Chuck said -- “dip a toe in.”
Marie-France: Very fair questions Kirk! For some of those answers we are turning to two colleagues of ours. Marco Valicenti, Director General of Innovation Programs Directorate and Brett Maxwell a Director in our Strategic Policy Branch, are here to explain what AAFC is currently doing on the policy and program side.
Marie-France: So Marco, how is it that government is getting ready for these this, you know, future disruptions, and technologies such as robotics?
Marco: Thanks very much for the question. I am just going to give a context piece. So when you're thinking about agriculture, you're thinking about productivity, you're thinking about sustainability, you're thinking about growth. as part of that context, you also have to look at what are some of the disruptors that can impact your business.
We look at that policy and programmatic continuum we need to plan in advance.
W e think about it in the context of basic research. We're thinking about it in the context of applied research. We're thinking about it in the context of to demonstrate that technology works small scale, large scale. We're thinking about scaling up that technology so it can become commercialized and then put into place so that the sector can use it and be more productive and effective and competitive.
We have programming along that innovation continuum to kind of move the yard sticks forward.
Marie-France: And Brett what about you? How do your policy analysts keep ahead of the curve?
Brett: On a daily basis, my team is talking with Ag tech companies, you know, entrepreneurs, investors you mentioned, you know, sort of forums and these types of things. I was at one a few weeks ago, the Agritech Venture For which is a group of entrepreneurs and investors that just kind of share information and make pitches with these ag tech technologies that they have. So going to those type meeting people, talking about their technologies and just understanding like what the technology is, what it's trying to do, what are the barriers to it, to its adoption.
I think the other big key thing is working with other government departments because we're not the only ones in this space. ISAD certainly does a lot.
I think one of the big challenges we have with AG Tech is that it is really about, you know, many the technologies that we're talking about when you talk about automation, robotics are coming from the non-traditional sort of stakeholders, people we don't normally deal with.
Marie France: In our interview with Chuck Baresich , he said this move to adoption in robotics, it's going to be very fast. Are our government programs ready for that speed of change?
Marco: A great question. We want to make sure our programming provides the flexibility to new, innovative, opportunities. Which allows for quite a bit of latitude. I mean we do have eligibility requirements and our typical terms and conditions for our programs, our programs allow for that flexibility. And we have a couple of programs, you know, such as Agri Innovate, where we are actually looking for, you know, first in Canada, first in the world technologies that that really, really will be game changers and will be catalyst for change in the sector.
We do have some some general priorities. The Government of Canada does want to tackle productivity, competitiveness, sustainability, clean tech. But the programming itself, we want to be flexible to to those new realities that you that you mentioned.
Kirk: It maybe seems a little abstract, but how will innovation help to overcome some of the challenges our sector is facing?
Brett : We have sort of a triple challenge ahead of as a sector, you know, and that is that the idea of being a major food producer in the world, we traditionally have been think we're depending on the year where the fourth or fifth biggest exporter of food products in the world. So like global food security challenge is something that we have a role to play. Um, and then you get into the economic element of it. I mean, economic, you know, agriculture's an economic driver of this country. It's a very important sector across the country, so we can't forget that.
And then of course, but now the GHG reduction question is there. There was a report or a study that the FAO did last year that they did a scenario analysis as part of their annual economic outlook that they do that looked at what would it take for us to both meet our the UN's zero hunger goals from a food security standpoint and also simultaneously meet our Paris climate change reduction goals. And what they found was that you would need to triple the product current productivity growth rate of the global food system, the basically triple what we're doing right now. So we're in the age of the most productive the global food systems ever been the most advanced technologically. But to meet these goals simultaneously, we need to triple that growth rate from where we're at right now. So that just speaks to the challenge. It speaks to why GHG and climate change has to be front and center and everything we're doing and the programs that Marco and the policy approa-ch we're taking reflects that. But it does also speak to the major challenges ahead of us that, you know, innovation is going to be in technology development is going to be the only way we achieve those objectives, in my view.
Marie-France: Shifts in technology and innovation are almost always met with resistance. In government we also tend to be a bit risk averse. You are in charge of programs that are geared to support innovation. How do you manage the resistance and risk aversion within government and also with the sector stakeholders?
Marco: So two points. One, I think you talked about in government, within government, with other government departments. And I could say that Brett and I tag team, I want to say on a daily basis. Just reminding colleagues in other departments that, you know, agriculture and technology is really changing. It's, it's a game changing pace, and must be thought about along with, uh, EV batteries, along with critical minerals.
With, you know, our esteemed colleagues or our colleagues at CQC and NRCan et-cetera that that certainly have a role to play on technology and actually look at multi-use technology. So maybe, you know, developed for a different sector and could be possibly if modified adapted to the ag sector. Think that's where we kind of want to continuously engage and be pretty active on.
When we think about outised Agriculture. There are a couple of networks that are starting to really take hold in, in the ag sector, whether you're thinking about the Canadian agriculture,Canadian Agriculture Automation Intelligence Network, so keen, whether we're thinking about the Canadian Food Innovators Network for for short, those are two networks that we engage actively on. And there's, there's a whole slew of accelerators and incubators that we try to be pretty active with them to hear what they're saying and what they're engaged on with the, the ag community and more importantly to make sure we are building those partnerships.
I think the ecosystem has gotten better and more r obust that we should be taking advantage of those partnerships, not just government.
Kirk: You mentioned some of the people you are talking to may be new to the sector and our programs. So, where to find funding or resources?
Marco: AgPal has been a key tool for us. Because if you're thinking what I hear a lot and I know it's an issue when we're trying to always continuously strive to be better at it is there's a myriad of programming out there. You think about the federal government, you think about the provincial government, you think about and non-profits that are possibly giving a getting some dollars but are using a different approach to engaging the sector.
And so how do we try to simplify with one tool? Uh, the, the, the entrepreneur or the producer or the, you know, the VP of Business development or innovation in a food manufacturer to see. Hey, look, I am, um, I am looking for possible incentives to reduce GHG emissions in either on the farm or see in a, in a processing plant, where would I go? And so Ag pal with a couple of drop down menus and a couple of keywords can, and depending on the location you are, can really narrow that search within a few, a few keystrokes. Again, a couple more clicks and you're on to the application form.---
Marie France: So, take note any entrepreneurs, producers and tech firms looking to the future, AgPal needs to be part of your toolkit.
Kirk: To end our episode, but to also look to the future, let’s listen to what Chuck Baresich had to say about what he thinks will be the big impacts of robotics and automation on our sector.
Chuck: So I think one of the most transformative things we're going to see with robotics is a is a move away from some pesticides. We're not going to get rid of all of them. There's there are insecticides and fungicides and things that a robot can't deal with, not at this time. But I think one of the most transformative things we're going to see is a is a move away from from pesticides.
The other transformative thing we're going to see with robotics is a change in the crops that we can grow. If we look at immigration coming into Canada, what a million people in one year, the food palette of the of new Canadians is, is different than what what we're used to and and all a lot of that is vegetables and produce and these types of things. You know Ontario especially is uniquely positioned to be able to grow some of those crops. But all those crops require more labor. Robotics opens up those windows to say, you know, maybe you can get that done. So that's, that's very transformative.
Chuck: I think the final piece too, is that as, as some of the new Canadians coming in become farmers themselves. A lot of those who want to become farmers don't see themselves as 10,000 acre grain farmers. They see themselves as, you know, 20 or 30 acre, horticulture farmers. And robotics opens the window for these new entrants to, to come into farming as well. It's fascinating stuff. And I don't know if it's going to come true in five years or not, but think we're going to see more of that.
Marie-France: That is fascinating. While I still hold out hope for a teleporter I can’t wait to see some of this innovation and it’s effects in action.
Kirk: Same here and while waiting to be beamed up….you know what to do…
Marie France: I do, I will try something new.