Authority

What does it mean to live from our identity rather than letting our roles define us? In this conversation, Jacob, Julia, and Jessie explore authority, responsibility, and the ways our identity in God shapes how we lead, serve, and relate to others. They talk about why authority is something we receive rather than something we have to manufacture, and how staying connected to God helps us know what we’re actually being invited to do.

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Becoming Good News: Reimagining Discipleship Through Identity, Story, and Science
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ABOUT JESSIE:
Jessie Cruickshank holds a Master’s degree in experiential education from Harvard and has spent 30 years studying how the brain actually learns, grows, and changes. She’s the author of Ordinary Discipleship and the architect of Identity Formation Theory, a framework for understanding where people are in their spiritual and psychological development. She believes discipleship was never meant to be a solo journey, and neuroscience backs her up.

Creators and Guests

Host

Jessie Cruickshank

Author of Ordinary Discipleship, Speaker, Neuro-ecclesiologist, belligerently optimistic, recklessly obedient, patiently relentless, catalyzing change

What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?

The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you.  Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.

Jacob: Welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast with Jesse

Krukshank. I'm Jacob Hoyer here
with Julia Schmaltz, and we are

still talking about big topics
out of Jesse and Julia's book,

Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,

Story, and Science. And you
know, guys, we've been talking

on a previous episode about this
contrast between being and

doing, and creating environments
where we can live from our

identity, which is our being,
not our doing, which were these

tasks and roles that we all take
on. Julia, you were saying

recently, like, but at the end
of the day, there's still some

stuff we have to do, and I think
I'm like, I'm picturing my dad

in my mind when I say that
phrase, like, well, yeah, but

you have to do something, and
and we're not telling people

they should just like not do
stuff. Just sit and listen.

Prayer is good, but sometimes
you have to get out of your

prayer closet and go do
something. So, how would you

speak to that concern that this
conversation around identity

being overdoing just kind of
allows us to avoid

accountability for the things we
actually have to do?

Julia Schmaltz: When Jesus was
assigned identity by God at this

baptism. He was told, "This is
my beloved Son in whom I am well

pleased. Before he had done
anything, and I do think it's

important for us to realize
Psalm 139. We're formed in our

mother's womb, Jeremiah one. You
know, it talks about you know we

are formed first, we are named
first by God, this part of us

that is formed for eternity
exists out that exists outside

of our even time, right? That's
what we're talking about when

we're talking about identity.
But the practical question is

that you asked is like, how do
we bring that into what we do?

So Jesus never had an official
role or position. He was called

a rabbi, but he was not
officially a rabbi named by the

Pharisees. He was a rabbi by the
nature of the gifting that God

had given him, the assignment
that God had given him, and then

the role as being a teacher to a
group of disciples that were

going to follow him into this
new way of of operating in the

kingdom. And in Mark 115, it
says, the time is now, the

kingdom is at hand. Repent and
believe the gospel, and then he

proclaimed the good news, and he
says it is going to be good news

for the poor. And he quotes from
Isaiah chapter 61. And this

whole thing that happens in
Jesus's life, it's you know when

you look at his life, you go,
okay, how do we live like Jesus?

We live attuned to the spirit of
God, what he did was he was

named by God. He eventually was
named by Peter too. When Peter

says that you know you are the
Christ, the Son of the Living

God, and and Jesus affirms Peter
and says you know flesh and

blood has not declared this over
has not told you this has not

revealed this to you. This is
this is from the spirit of God,

so we what we're saying when we
talk about identity is that no

matter what we do, no matter
what we're shaped with, you know

what our spiritual gifts are,
our heart, you know things that

we're passionate about, our
pers, our abilities, our

personality, our experiences,
just the the skills, you know.

I'm I'm a pretty tech savvy
person, you know, and so I'm

asking God because I'm, you
know, I'm designing websites,

I'm doing all this stuff, you
know, we're writing books and

we've got all these things going
on. I'm like, God, I want to

take this off my plate, but I
actually really enjoy designing

a website and getting into AI
and figuring out how to solve

problems. Like that's how God's
wired me. So I don't stop doing

any of those things. I don't
stop baking my kids' dinner.

Other than I'm not a good cook,
and they don't. They laugh at

whenever they they're like,
"Mom, you need to not be cooking

anymore. So, but you don't stop
needing to feed your family. You

don't stop doing those things,
and as you said, just sit in a

prayer closet. But I don't. I am
not defined by those things. I

am not like I am not just a
mother. I am not just a wife. I

am not just a daughter. I'm not
just you know running an

organization and my roles and
responsibilities in that in that

environment. I am my identity is
deeper than that, and so when I

go to do those things, I have to
ask God, how do I do those? As

you know, He calls me a
courageous pioneer. How do I do

those? And what what's been
freeing for me in knowing that

God calls me a courageous
pioneer, is that that means that

a lot of times when I get
frustrated because people aren't

with me, God said, "No, it's
because you're supposed to go

first and figure this out, and
then people are going to come.

Or I was frustrated because I'm
like, God, I just seem to start

things and not finish them, or I
start and then I have you ask me

to leave before they're done,
like, and I have to hand it off

to someone else. And these these
these things in my life that I

looked at as failures.

When God showed me who I was, He
said, "No, you actually go

first, so you can be who. And by
you being who you're supposed to

be, the people coming behind you
get to be who they're supposed

to be. And that's actually the
way that I made you. And that

was very freeing for me because
it wasn't then a failure. It was

no. It's the truth of who I am,
and in community, I get to hand

the baton to somebody else to be
who they are, and that's the

beauty of it. It's that I get to
do all of it and the fullness of

it, but I don't have to bear the
weight and the burden of it, and

that has been the most amazing
freedom that God has given. Me

and I, I know a lot of people as
we're just beginning to press

into true identity.

Jacob: You know what's occurring
to me, Julia, is like we were

talking earlier about. I think
you were talking about

remothering and how so many
people to receive their identity

because our culture has prized
the masculine virtues over the

feminine virtues. There's been
like people have resisted or

been deprived of a mothering
influence, and it's really

interesting because coming into
this conversation about walking

in our authority, I'm always
thinking about how to reframe

authority for people so they
don't be assholes and run over

other people. And you heard the
question about authority as how

do we frame authority so that
everyone knows they have

something to offer is how I
heard it. Like the license to be

yourself and not have to be
somebody else, and and and and

license. I'm thinking about it
as keeping people in check. Like

just be yourself. Don't try to
be a super version of yourself.

And I was like, as you were
talking, I was hearing that in

terms of like, oh yeah, in your
story, you needed to be told

that who you were was enough. In
my story, I often need to

remember not to use my role as
license to be more than I am,

like remembering to live out of
my identity for me is a check

more than it's a license, which
is again I think true to the

different stories you and I have
gotten to live. It's like I

think I've often found myself in
positions to lead beyond my own

development, and I know that's a
part of your story too, maybe in

a little bit different way. But
I think like I've had to learn

how to be to move slower and
speak quieter to leave more room

for others. And I hear you
saying that that for you,

authority that flows from your
identity is about permission to

step into what is really yours
to do. I

Julia Schmaltz: can be loud as
well, Jacob. So I think I've had

to learn to die to self for for
many decades, and so in doing

that, I think the Lord has said,
"You don't you don't do that

stepping on others in the
process. You do that because

then you see the truth of who
they are, and then you're asking

God, "Who do you say that they
are? And okay, I see that. And

God's actually with my kids.
I've asked God, "Who do you say

that they are? Years before they
ever receive an identity from

Him, before they're even ready
to receive it. But then calling

that out of them is something
that's been very life giving for

me because, and also then for
them because they're starting

there. There's not a weight and
a burden that gets put on that,

you know, and so that's
interesting that you're talking

about the feminine and masculine
virtues, and then also you know

you feeling like you've got to
pull back. I want to press into

that a little bit more with you,
but I'll let Jesse respond

Jessie Cruickshank: and chime in
first. I think it's that push

pull, so that we don't end up in
gutters, right? Why we're

better, where we're better
together, and together Adam and

Eve make a complete image of
God. And so, you know, not

having spirit, biological
children, but having spiritual

children, asking the same thing
over them, like God, who who are

they? What what was the gift you
gave? What we did together, so

in leadership role, so running
an organization, what was the

gift you gave the organization
and this person? You know what

was what was the need that you
see that the organization has,

the community has, that this
person gets to come help be a be

a part of filling, and I think
we started praying that way

because we were young and we
didn't have strategy and we

didn't know how to actually
build an organization. I mean, I

don't know how to build an
organization at the age of 22,

but I do know how to pray and
ask God to send people. And so,

so what was the identity? What
was the gift that they came as,

and saying, you know, okay, how
do we how do we receive that

from them? Wow, I I really wish
that they were better at

something than they are. Like
like receiving a lot of people

who are in process or incomplete
or you know not a superstar, and

yet the Lord's like, no, this is
my gift to you, and and you're

gonna grow together. You're
gonna be together in this. So

for me, for me, I have the push
pull of, you know, how do I step

back in a way that lets them be
brave enough to step forward

because I'm I'm pretty intense
personality, but then also how

do I know who, what I'm being
invited into. What is the space

God is asking me to stand in?
And in that, while I'm leading

them, what does that actually
look like to be a nurturing

space? The best metaphor I have
for that is a mother tree. Like

a mother tree helps nurture a
forest. It doesn't. It it

doesn't like you can't. Make any
of the other trees grow, but you

can send them nutrients. You can
change the soil. You can you can

create an atmosphere for other
others to thrive to thrive in

and to be and flourish. I feel
both, right? I feel the push

pull. I feel the places where
I've I need permission to be in

my true self, and where I need
to be like, okay, let me dial

down a little bit of the
intensity, so that others don't

feel overwhelmed by that. So,
so, so that leadership, that

being for me, is a is a bit of a
an expansion and contraction and

an ebb and a flow. And so, you
know, Julia, you and I share the

same practice where we say,
okay, God, who are you asking me

to be in this room? Who am I
showing up as? Am I showing up

as for me my my catalyst, where
I'm going to speak intensely,

and the point is that it's
intense and it's going to change

somebody's life? Or God, are you
showing? You invited me to show

up as a terraformer, which is a
slower process of changing the

soil and changing the atmosphere
in order for things to be able

to grow, and those are ones
short term, ones long term, ones

more intense, and ones more way
you know pulled back. But

they're both me because they're
both who God created me to be.

It's just what am I invited to
be in that room will then inform

what I do in that room.

Jacob: Yeah, and I, I, I, I
wrote that down previously as

like what part of my identity is
fueling my current role. Now

again, I think it's like for us,
a lot of this is about

differentiating concepts that
have been conflated in the past,

and so for a lot of people,
their role has become their

identity. And I think part of
what we're saying in this

conversation is both are
necessary. So it's like you have

to be true to your identity, and
you should probably be faithful

to your role. But the role
should always flow from the

identity. The identity should
always be what's what's

empowering the role. Am I
getting that right?

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, I think
that's all part of our

formation. So my husband was a
police officer for 35 years, and

you know he was we were here in
California, and so he you know

took an oath for the law of the
land to to operate in the

authority that he was given to
you know with the laws here in

in California, but when he goes
to Arizona, he's still a police

officer in California, but he
has a different authority. He

has a different now that he's
retired. He has all the

training. He has all the
experience. In 2020, he had a

heart attack and then had kidney
cancer, and so he was still,

even though he was still a
police officer, he was off duty

because of that of that year
because of the just some of the

physical stuff that he was
dealing with, and so he had to

be. Is my identity being a
police officer? Is my identity

and for all I will tell you,
being a wife of a police

officer, it was at that time.
It's not anymore. God has since

called him a peacemaker, and
he's a peacemaker in how he goes

into situations. And God calls
him a faithful, beloved son, and

he's that, regardless of whether
or not he is a police officer or

a deputy or whatever role he
has. He's that whether wherever

he goes, you know, he he's a
peacemaker. But he broke that

for beautifully for 35 years in
a wonderful career. Now that

he's retired, he's still a
peacemaker, and that's the truth

of who he is. But he's no longer
has the same authority in those

in a room that he used to have.
Now he has authority in other

rooms, and I think that's part
of our spiritual formation.

God's saying, "I'm changing the
boundaries for you because now

that you know who you are, how
are you going to operate like

that in this this different
world? And sometimes, to your

point, Jesse, it constricts, and
then sometimes it opens up, and

it's constantly changing. And I
think also that you know our

worlds expand, and so we have
multiple areas, you know. I

might have that authority at
church, or I might not,

depending on my role or my
responsibility. I have it in a

group that I'm leading in my
home right now, and it's really

beautiful. And people are
inviting me in. You know, same

thing with my kids' lives as
they grow, that changes. So I

think that there's something
about that when it comes to you

know to just our authority and
being able to really like in our

roles and responsibilities, the
truth of who we are is going to

play out in all of that. But,
but our authority really has

boundaries. I we believe. I
mean, that's what something that

Jesse and I really wrestled
through in writing this this

book is that we we are not
supposed to hold power in our

brains. And Jesse can talk about
the neuroscience of that, and

get real nerdy for you on it in
the most beautiful way. What we

love about her, but we're not
supposed to hold power. But we

are empowered by the Spirit for
the roles and the assignments

that God gives us, and that is
how we operate in our authority.

and And we are supposed to
operate in that. And one of.

Things that Adam and Eve did is
they questioned God, and and the

enemy said to them, "Did God
really say that? And I think

that's just the the the number
one scheme of the enemy is he

just makes us doubt God. He
makes us doubt that God is who

He says He is, that we are who
we say we are, and out of that,

if God's not really good, or if
God's, or if I'm you know a

screw up, and all of a sudden, I
abdicate. I hand over my

authority to the enemy and say,
"Well, the enemy's just running

rampant in my life. And it's
like, "Oh, is that true?

God, do you say that it's true,
or are you actually, you know,

have I just abandoned, abdicated
my role and responsibility in

the authority that you've given
to me and handed it over to the

enemy, and so the enemy has free
reign in my life. And I think

that the Lord is saying you
actually have more authority.

Your assignment is greater than
you realize if you can operate

in the truth of who you are and
allow your being to inform all

that you do. Yeah,

Jessie Cruickshank: the
temptation with the doing is

that it sets us up and convinces
us that we're a source, that

we're the source, and so we, you
know, we want power. We stay in

power. We think that we need to
know the answers. I mean, it

depends on depends on whatever
your your economy is, right? So

you're what is it that the
situation needs that you think

you're the source of, and so
when when we are stuck in a

doing paradigm, then then we're
we have to provide that. When we

can when we can shift out of
that into a being paradigm, then

our being is grounded in who God
is, and we don't have to be a

source. And so, authority
doesn't come from us; it flows

through us. God is the source of
all authority, and all authority

is actually delegated, right
from the throne to wherever God

deems that it is, right? And we
can be upset about that. We can

be jealous of that. We can we
can have all the feels that we

feel about how God delegates
that authority, but it's still

it's from Him through us. But we
cut off that supply when we

think we're the source, and then
we can either get trapped by

trying too hard or doing too
much or operating in in ways

that can harm other people, or
we abdicate. Or usually, what

happens is we try hard, it
doesn't work, and then we quit

and abdicate. But but we always
end up in this place where where

we give up and relinquish when
when God never asked us to be

the source, He just said, "Hey,
you stand in this place that I

give you, and I will do it.
Well, that that means we have to

abide. That means we have to be
grafted in. We have to be a

branch, you know, tapped into
the vine, and let the juice that

flows through a plant, throw
flow through us, and you know

that that paradigm then is my
doing flows out of my being. My

being is connected. My and I am
is connected to who God is, and

I don't have to worry then about
I don't have to worry then about

what actually happens in a room?
What the fruit is? You know

what, what is accomplished? I,
you know, whether or not people

listen to me, I can just stay
grafted into the vine there and

and let God do it, and and then
we'll deal with that, right? For

better, for worse, for you know,
fat, for miracles or for

frustration, we we can deal with
that because that's the story

God's writing.

Jacob: So in the book, you
ordered the topics this way.

It's like story is at the
center, and then you talk about

identity, then community, then
maturity, then authority. I

wonder if the sequence there is
a stacking. So do you think the

content needs to be apprehended
in that order?

Julia Schmaltz: Yes. Yes.

Jacob: Okay, I'm just confirming
that. Yeah. Because what I was

sensing in this conversation is
like it's very complex, and so

we have you have being and
doing, you have role and

responsibility, you have power
and authority, you have

effectiveness and and
restedness, like so. So there's

advancing and retreating, and
all of that is coming together.

And that's one of like, I I like
I was thinking of our listener

and thinking like, wow, we just
threw out five concepts because

power is different than
authority, role is different

than responsibility, and it's
like. But I think in order to

get at what you're saying about
doing out of our being

boundaries on our authority,
moving from authority in order

to wield the power of God or or
submit to the power of God, and

then and not abdicating what's
been mined to do, and like, and

when I think power and
authority, I think about like

the American world today. It's
like it feels like every every

conversation in our culture is
dominated by questions of power,

and and it's very very complex.
And so I was I was checking to

make sure that. That authority
comes at the end of the book

because it really it really does
come after we understand

identity, community, and
maturity. Then we can start to

have a conversation about
authority. So I'm just saying to

our listener, if you're feeling
a little overwhelmed and

conflicted, it's because we
jumped to the end of the story,

and there's a lot at play here.
Is that would you agree or

disagree?

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, if you
look at the way the questions

are along those topics, the for
identity is the question of who

am I, and maturity is the
question of who am I becoming,

and there's a vertical access to
that that we are on a journey in

which we are we are being that
for out our entire life. We're

talking about a lifetime of
discipleship. We're not talking

about a moment. You don't just
hear your identity and boom,

great, this is who I am. Now let
me go be this wherever I go.

We're not talking about that.
You keep coming back, and you'll

see that who's at the center. We
actually the first question we

ask is actually fidelity. Who is
my God? Who do I put at the

center of my life? And then over
time, how am I coming closer to?

I should become in more and more
alignment. And if I'm coming in

more and more alignment with
Christ and becoming more one

with Him, and Jesse and Jacob
and all of us as listeners are

becoming more and more aligned
to Him, there is more and there

is more attunement to what God
is doing and what God is

speaking. And so then the
questions that we have

horizontally are community and
authority, and those are

actually who do I represent? Who
do I belong to? And so this

question of authority is who do
I represent? And so when I

operate in authority, whose
power am I operating in? If if

we're operating in Christ's
authority, which is of course

our desire, He's going to keep
telling us who we are, and I

just kept coming back. You know,
I just want to remind all of us

as the listeners, like when we
talk about Jesus, Jesus, there

were there were towns that he
did not go in. He actually,

whoa, Corason, whoa, Bethesda,
because they did not receive

him, and so us operating in our
authority, God, you know, Jesus

had all authority in heaven and
on earth had been given to him,

and he was still rejected. And
there were places that he

stepped in and then left, or
places that he never went. There

were boundaries that were placed
on Paul in where he could go and

he couldn't go. And this is
where we just have it's so it's

complex, and yes, it builds and
there's a lot of concepts around

all of it, and yet it's so
simple. It's who's our God and

who's at the center of our life
and who do who are we keep who

do we keep going to to tell us
who we are and whose we are. And

if there's one thing from all
the conversations we're having,

from story, from authority,
identity, maturity, community,

it's who are we going back to is
at the center of our life and

gets to tell us who we are.

Jessie Cruickshank: It
definitely gets like three

dimensional in all of that, but
but just as Julie is saying,

like the core is simple. The
core is tetheredness. The core

is that dynamic with God and our
dynamic with others, so you can

stand in your spiritual
authority when you're five, and

I tell a story about doing that
in the book. And so we we can

make it complicated as we think
about the complexity of the

world, but if we just zoom in
and say, okay, what does it look

like for a child to know how God
names them to say, you know,

God, Jesus, you're my, you're my
Jesus, you're my Lord, you're my

Savior, right? So God is my
Savior and my Lord. I am a

beloved child of God, and then
okay, God, what do you want me

to do about that? What do you
want me to know about that? So

we can we can distill it down to
simplicity, and that those

things, what's true for the
five-year-old is true for all of

us. And so, when it feels
overwhelming, when it feels

complex, man, just close your
eyes, enter in that space that

you have with God, and ask the
question like a five-year-old,

and and God will answer you
there. He always has, at least

for Julie, at least for me, he
always has. I mean, I mean,

practically, like I was in a
couple of meetings this week,

and we were, you know, what
should we do? We're going, you

know, you start getting into all
these conversations, you know,

and it's like, what, what's God
inviting us into? You start

asking all these questions, and
we just stopped and said, God,

what are you asking? Like, we
just stopped, God, what do you

want us to know right now, in
this moment, God, what are you

speaking to us? Because we know
who we are, we know that we are

yours, and what are you speaking
to us in this moment? And do you

know how centering that was?

Julia Schmaltz: And do you know
how God just speaks alignment to

people when we just go back and
ask Him? Like, if that was just

our authority comes from Him,
and we just keep going back to

that, and I'm just wanting more
of that. Like how simple. I just

want more of that. I don't have
to figure this world out. I

mean, I don't know about you
guys, but I'm in the AI space

right now, and things are
changing so fast. I mean, you

talk about being overwhelmed by,
and I love it. And I actually am

really pressing into that, but.
There's there's something about

like I realize like I can't
literally keep up with the speed

of how things are changing in
this world, so I just have to

keep going back to Jesus and
having Him tell me what I need

to know and what I need to do.
Amen.

Jacob: Amen. Thanks for joining
us on the Ordinary Discipleship

Podcast with Jesse Cruikshank.
Check out Jesse and Julia's

book, *Becoming Good News:
Reimagining Discipleship Through

Identity, Story, and Science*
and we'll see you next time.