Mostly Working

Tom and Jonny sit down with Gabriella Hachem, co-founder of Dessn and the podcast’s first design tool founder. They dig into why Dessn runs your codebase in the cloud so you can design on production, unpack the read-only decision that shaped the product, and go behind the scenes of building a design tool while the models caught up.
Key takeaways
  1. Dessn runs your codebase in the cloud so you can design on top of the real thing. No local setup and no coding, and the page you pull onto the canvas is your production homepage rather than a representation of it. Gabriella has waited her whole career to open the real homepage and work on it.
  2. Read-only access to the repo was a focus decision before it was a security one. The first version of Dessn opened pull requests. They dropped it, because opening a PR isn’t the hard part anymore and it was never how they were going to win. Handoff now runs through MCP straight into Cursor or Claude Code.
  3. Leaving the engineering gate where it is smooths adoption. Workflows are already changing, and change is heavy even when it’s powerful. Keeping one familiar checkpoint untouched means a design team only has to renegotiate the part that actually matters.
  4. Dessn’s ideal customer profile turned out to be a culture, which is a very hard thing to qualify for. Every usual deterministic signal failed: vertical, size, stage. The proxy Gabriella watches for is whether a design engineer role already exists on the team.
  5. An excited user counts for nothing if leadership isn’t bought in. Gabriella has watched a deal die at that gate with the user still cheering for it. Nim is the one who says no, and she’s learning to, because you only have so much time and where you spend it matters.
  6. The handoff only ever existed because designers couldn’t reach the code. Remove the skill barrier and you remove the reason for the relay. Fewer people between the decision-maker and the executor gets you higher quality output and more speed.
  7. Roles were built on skills, and skills are the part that’s collapsing. You knew Figma so you were a designer, you knew how to code so you were a dev. Gabriella never became a Figma expert and still considers herself a good designer, because the thinking layer was always the job.
  8. Dessn’s learning curve is a curve of power. It’s mostly prompt-based, so there’s no tool to master, but there is a blank canvas problem: what can I even do in here? Ask it for a dropdown of every state a user could be in and it pulls them straight from your code.
  9. The models caught up to the vision, and that’s what conviction buys you. It didn’t work, it didn’t work, it didn’t work, and then it worked. Dessn never rode the hype wave, because the product couldn’t deliver on the promises yet, and now it can.
  10. The industry has gone from FOMO to fatigue after a slew of broken promises. Gabriella wants the headline to be exactly that: no broken promises. She’s blunt about competitors who answer the source-of-truth problem by creating another source of truth.
  11. The designer’s job is heading towards curation, and that was always the high-leverage part. Deciding this is the right thing to do was always the leverage. Her worry, one year out, is how much Dessn builds for the requests arriving today versus the version of design work she thinks is coming.
  12. “When did a feature become synonymous with a role?” An investor asked Gabriella where the visual editor was, given she builds for designers. Direct manipulation comes up constantly, and she thinks the industry should reopen that question rather than assume the answer.
Chapters
  • 0:04 — Our first design tool founder: Gabriella Hachem and Dessn
  • 1:18 — Montreal, first jobs, and never fitting the boxed roles
  • 2:22 — She didn’t quit to build a design tool. She quit to solve a problem
  • 3:34 — Design and prototype in your codebase, no local setup, no coding
  • 6:42 — Jonny built a Temu version of Dessn for a hackathon
  • 8:38 — Read access or write access to the repo, and why Dessn went read-only
  • 11:04 — Opening a PR isn’t hard anymore, so that was never how they win
  • 13:28 — Collapsing the talent stack: fewer people between decision and execution
  • 14:51 — Roles were built on skills. She thinks they should be built on thinking
  • 16:57 — Novelty budget, and a learning curve of power
  • 19:36 — Pulling real production pages onto the canvas
  • 20:48 — Every state defined in your code, and an automated Storybook
  • 22:54 — When your ideal customer profile turns out to be culture
  • 23:55 — Leadership is the real gate, and Nim is better at saying no
  • 25:16 — Two years of founding: hard, fun, and a whole other level of hats
  • 28:53 — How to know it’s your turn to take the risk
  • 30:51 — Montreal to New York to London, and why not San Francisco
  • 32:14 — Valio Con, a panel of design tool founders, and a week in SF
  • 33:11 — Frenemies, and the one thing nobody else does
  • 35:06 — Form an opinion about how you want to work, then go work that way
  • 40:03 — Creating another source of truth makes the problem worse
  • 41:57 — From FOMO to fatigue, and the models catching up to the vision
  • 43:30 — Speed, latency, and 120 frames per second
  • 46:17 — Proactive agents, direct manipulation, and the designer as curator
  • 49:33 — “When did a feature become synonymous with a role?”
  • 50:38 — Personalised workflows, plugins, and Dessn as infrastructure
  • 52:57 — React Native now, iOS Native and a Mac Mini next
  • 54:23 — Quick fire: a wine bar, a spatula, deleting X, and watching your mum use ChatGPT
  • 59:19 — Where to find Gabriella, and the infinite canvas beta
Mentioned in the episode
Gabriella and Dessn
Companies and past roles
People
Tools and products discussed
Events
  • Valio Con, Drew Wilson’s conference in Oceanside, California, 16–18 September — https://valiocon.com
About the pod
Got thoughts, a guest suggestion, or a disagreement? Email us at hello@nearfuture.works.
More from Near Future at https://nearfuture.works

Creators and Guests

Host
Jonny Burch
Co-founder of Near Future
Host
Tom Harman
Co-founder of Near Future

What is Mostly Working?

A weekly podcast covering design and AI by Tom Harman and Jonny Burch. We cover both what we're seeing on the ground and industry trends, ways of working and occasional guests from the design world.

Jonny: Hi, everyone.

Welcome to another episode of the
Near Future Podcast with Tom and

Jonny, where we talk about design
and AI and everything in between.

today our guest is Gabriella from
Dessn, founder of Dessn, our first

design tool founder on the podcast.

Really excited about this.

so Gabriella and her co-founder, Nim, have
been building for a couple of years, and

early, really early to this conversation
about how design tooling's changing.

We're gonna get onto that.

But, you guys met eight years ago, worked

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: and, and realized that the
designer-engineer handoff was imperfect.

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: went your separate ways and,
and, and, worked in leadership roles

in different companies and then
came back together to try and solve

this problem a couple of years ago.

I'll leave it there because I
would love to hand over to you,

Gabriella, to open the questions with,

give us-- tell us what I missed and
tell us w- how, why Dessn came to be.

Why, why, why does this tool, exist
now, and, and what was the sort of

friction point that you, you saw?

Gabriella: Yeah.

Well, thank you for having me.

I'm also really excited to be here.

I think this is gonna be a fun one.

but, yeah, Nim and I did meet a while ago.

and a part that you did miss was
that we actually did, work together

again in leadership roles, be-
right before w- starting Dessn.

So we did s-- It was our first
jobs both out of uni, out of

university in Montreal, Canada.

We ended up at the same startup,
him more in engineering,

myself more in UX and product.

Both never ful- felt fully at home in
these, like, boxed roles and titles,

and I think that really bleeds in
with what we're doing at Dessn.

But we met there, worked
super well together then.

Then we did separate.

He worked at Unsplash for a bit, and
I joined another s- startup called

Planned, and then he joined Planned.

So…

And then when I, you know, grew
into a leadership role there

as, as head of product, he had
joined as well and was head of AI.

And then a few years after
doing that, c- I think a couple,

we did quit, to start Dessn.

and we started-- I think we, we
knew we wanted to be founders

together for a while, but we were,
we weren't sure what to, to work on.

and then at some point, we--
the conversation kept going to

this gap that we were feeling.

And honestly, I d- we personally,
I d- no, I think Nim says he always

knew we would be going in this
direction, but I didn't start to…

I didn't quit to start a design tool.

Like, that's not what I quit to do.

I quit to solve a problem, though.

Like, there was a problem
that I really wanted to solve.

I didn't know it would end up becoming
what it is really and, like, the

shape of the product, but I did know
that I wanted to solve this problem.

And so when you have a very,
like, specific thing that you

wanna solve, it becomes also a bit
easier and, and that kind of thing.

And we did have conviction.

And, the problem that I wanted to solve
was that I couldn't touch production.

Like, I was too far away from the product
that I was building, and that was painful.

and it was painful across the
company, and then I realized it

was painful across all companies,
like literally every single one.

and so then we set out to solve that.

I don't know if you know the
history of, of our product, or if

that's interesting to you in terms
of, like, how we've iterated, but

I can definitely go into that.

But we started with something
quite different and have iterated

our way to, to where we are.

Jonny: I would love to ask about
that later because I want to

ask you about being a founder,
having been in a product, role and

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: and I suspect
this will come into that.

but first of all, it'd be great to
dig more into-- I suppose you've,

you've outlined the problem today.

What does Dessn do practically?

Like, as a designer, how would I-- if
I'm currently in Figma or I'm currently

trying to work out how to use the terminal
or, or like, what, what is the state that

I'm in where Dessn is a, an obvious fix?

Gabriella: Yes.

basically Dessn allows you to
design and prototype directly in

your code base without any local
setup and without any coding.

and that's kind of the one-liner.

the other kind of one-liner is
Dessn turns your code base into a

design environment, is kind of what
we've, what we've become as well.

but that's really the core piece,
is it allows you to work inside your

source of truth without any of the
friction of getting into the source

of truth and with many other pieces.

but that's the quick…

Does that resonate as, as a one-liner?

Jonny: It definitely does with me.

I did,

Gabriella: Nice

Jonny: have a question.

You know, of these like nuanced tools when
you tell your family what you're doing,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: get that across.

So I'm interested, how would you des-
describe it to n- normies outside design

Gabriella: I,

Jonny: engineering?

Gabriella: that is, a good one because
when, you know, if I'm meeting someone

new and introducing myself and they're
asking me what I do, and they ask

what Dessn does, I do ask if they know
software or like if they, if they, you

know, know software and work in software
'cause it does kind of change the pitch.

I don't know if it
should very much, right?

Because the, the thing is you
should be able to explain what

you do to your grandma, you know?

That's the, kind of the classic piece.

But it does change.

I mean, if you're an engineer, if
you work in product, you're gonna

get it ooh, like instantly, and
the reaction is usually like, "Holy

shit, this sounds really cool."

whereas my family is
like, "You're so cool.

I'm proud of you."

You know?

I'm like…

Jonny: I don't

Gabriella: but y-

Jonny: at all, but

Gabriella: yeah, no, I'm, not nothing.

but the, the, if they don't, if someone
doesn't know software in the way, you

know, we do, I usually what I say is,
"Usually when you're developing an app

or building a product," and I usually
maybe give like the example of Airbnb or

like a consumer product that they know.

the way you build that is normally
the designer, the person who designs

what it looks like and what it feels
like in the UX and the UI, is working

in a tool kinda like Photoshop,
'cause Photoshop people know.

So I, I, I go, I usually go
like Photoshop, which lives very

far away from the code base.

It's basically like shapes.

Beautiful, beautiful shapes,
but it is just shapes.

And so translating…

And then what happens is you have to
give that to an engineer who has to

translate that into code to be the
thing that you're using, and there's

a lot of pain in, in that translation
process and in that back and forth.

and so what we are doing is enabling
you to design and build that

directly in your code base, and
that tends to click well enough.

Jonny: Yeah.

Yeah.

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Well,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: as you said, you know, if, if
you're in software, it clicks immediately,

and I think from my experience, and
Tom, I'm sure you, you would agree,

it-- I mean, I've been frustrated for
20 years by the fact that I'm drawing

rectangles and, then the best possible
handover you can hope for is about

50% of the fidelity that, that you
need in order to actually p- build

the thing that you had in your head.

so, you know, when I first saw…

So I first saw Dessn because,

I, I, decided to enter a,
a hackathon on my own about

Gabriella: Okay.

Jonny: ago, just under a year ago, and
I was like, "I don't know what to build.

I'm gonna build a design tool,"
because I was in- curious about how

to solve this problem that I think
is, like, related to Dessn, and

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: built a terrible, like,
Temu version of Dessn, obviously,

like, you know, barely worked.

presented it, and then afterwards was
like, "Oh, should I build this more?"

And I,

Gabriella: Nice

Jonny: my first Google search, I was
like, "Oh, no, Dessn are doing it.

Fine.

Good."

Gabriella: Well, that's, that's great.

We do need to work on our SEO, so
I'm glad, I'm glad that happened.

Also, a year ago it was probably less
crowded, let's say, and, and may- yeah, I

think we would have appeared, more easily.

but that's a great way to find us.

Jonny: Yeah.

Gabriella: cool

Jonny: And, I would, I would have--
I mean, so many designers I've

spoken to over the last year, and
so many people we've had on this

podcast describe this, this pain, of

Gabriella: a very real pain

Jonny: in a source of truth that is not
the correct one and, being the bottleneck

generally for the engineering team
and deciding what you give away versus

what you keep and, and stuff like that.

So I'm, I, I hope we'll be able to
get a little bit more into that.

I,

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: Tom first.

Tom: Actually, I, hearing you, reflect
back at that time, Jonny, I remember

when we were, you built that product
and when we were talking about it for,

for the hackathon, and at the time there
was a real tension around is it read

access to the repo or is it write access?

And there's one version of that
that makes sense for a designer, but

Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

Tom: there's this different
set of criteria and challenges

that come into engineering when
you have that same question.

And I think there's

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: damic- dynamics that
unfold based on the sort of

Gabriella: Totally

Tom: there.

So Gabriella, would love to hear your
thoughts about sort of read access

to the repo or write or where are

Gabriella: Yeah.

Tom: around

Gabriella: That's a re-

Tom: a sort of philosophical position?

Gabriella: That's a really, like, good
insight and good point, and not one that

comes up, I think, often when, when we
talk, when I talk about Dessn with people.

But it is a very intentional choice that
we've made recently to be read-only.

There were a few things.

So the first iteration of Dessn was
pure like, you edited something and

you pushed the PR 'cause that was our
first goal is like, I couldn't do the

impact or have the impact directly.

And then for many
reasons, we iterated away.

And then n- right now
we are read-only access.

We make it super easy to, hand off,
via MCP, like it's literally open

in Cursor, open in Claude Code,
just like to port over what you've

designed in Dessn to your coding agent.

But there is some massaging that has
to happen there, sp- specifically with

back-end pieces because we are a front-end
only, mainly front-end only, tool.

So there, that still does have
to happen, and we've decided to

be read-only for a few reasons.

One, it does help with security.

That's just the, the reality, right,
when you're working with companies.

The smaller the company, the more they're
like, "Give me a PR, give me a PR."

I'm like, "Oh my God, I know, I know."

And, which is great, you know, like
it's, it's the best validation.

but, the bigger you get, you
know, write access becomes a whole

different ask, for companies.

And I-- And the reality is
we could be both, right?

You can just choose one or the other.

so we could solve it that way,
but we actually have chosen not

to be from a focus perspective.

Opening that part of the user journey
and being accountable over it and like

making that good is a whole other thing
and a whole other part of the user

journey and product offering piece
that we would have to be good at.

And that's…

Look, opening a PR is not hard anymore.

Like, that's not the hard part.

right?

And we're not gonna win
by pushing the best PR.

Like, that's not w- how we're gonna win.

we are gonna win by being the best
way for you to design and build

your front end and your interface.

And so we have-- it's a focus
pers-- like decision to not, not

have that as a feature right now.

it's a, it's a pretty easy feature to
build, but like it's just not the right

thing for users to be coming to us about.

versus what they are coming to us about
is, so many really cool things of like

I'm gonna explode my s-- like states and
just like really cool design layer pieces.

And I think that's the hard part
to solve, not the other one.

And I think we-- like that's the
right area to be focusing on and

the challenges to be solving.

so yeah, th- that's our
approach to read versus write.

Tom: That makes, makes a ton of sense.

And, we don't need to go down this
rabbit hole, but I, but I assume

it, it makes company-wide adoption
questions a bit more focused on, on

design rather than the sort of set of
concerns engineering might raise if it

Gabriella: Exactly.

Tom: write access.

Gabriella: Exactly.

Exactly.

Like, it, it does have this like, okay,
the gate is still there that we're all

used to, because the reality is you are
ch- we're changing workflows, right?

the world is changing and workflows
are changing, and change is hard.

Even though it's really
powerful, it's still…

It, it can, it's heavy.

and, at the same time, you wanna
keep quality and you wanna keep

moving fast and, like, all these
things, that you have to manage.

so it do- it definitely helps
adoption be like, "Okay, that part

we don't have to change right now.

Let's focus on this part, and how we
have, how that dynamic is changing."

Jonny: Part of this feels like it's a sell
into the organization strategy as well,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: that we don't want to have a
conversation with engineering right now.

We want it to sort of
keep-- stay, stay in the…

You know, I'm, I'm talking
to the head of design.

The head of design gets to buy.

They don't have to ask
too much permission.

There's low risk from, from
that, security point of view.

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: but do you-- I'm interested in
your maybe slightly more holistic on

the designer-engineer relationship.

You know, if we, if we jump forward
five years or to, like, some

point in the future where this
tooling is mature and organizations

generally understand it, like, what

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: do you think?

Gabriella: that's, that's one
that keeps evolving a little bit.

But I did our mission page on our website,
it's the same as it's always been.

The fun part about Dessn is like the pitch
deck too, the pre-seed is the exact same.

Like I-- when, when we say, you know,
the problem that we wanted to solve

and the solution holistically was
like, okay, you need to access prod.

those-- all of that is the exact same.

The only part that's different is
the product demo, which it should

be, because if you haven't changed,
then that's a very big problem.

but our thesis overall was always
collapsing roles a little bit.

one of my favorite articles on the
internet is called Collapsing the Talent

Stack, and it's by Scott Belsky, who,

Tom: Yeah

Gabriella: I love, you
know, his, his thoughts.

And, I wrote a, a piece kind of around
that, and basically I talk about how

in any process, the less people between
decision-maker and executor, you're

gonna have a higher quality of output
and you're gonna move faster, right?

And the, the truth is the handoff
only existed because We didn't

have access to the code base, and
so we had to invent this handoff

process to go from here to here.

But if that skill barrier gets
lowered or basically eliminated,

then you can just directly work and,
and have impact on the end state.

Similarly, what I believe in is that our,
our roles were based on skills, right?

You knew how to code and therefore
you were a dev, and you knew Figma

and therefore you were a designer.

I don't believe in that, right?

I, I believe that design is
much more than knowing a tool.

but that's kind of what the industry
was, which I don't agree with.

it was so skills-based and not
thinking-based enough and not

approach-based enough, in my opinion.

So when you remove the skill barriers,
the thinking state and the, and the

approach to problem-solving become
that much more important, and I think

that's going to remain, and become the
most important thing more and more.

It always has been.

But as skill barriers get lowered,
that becomes more obvious, I

think, to, to the industry.

and so in terms of roles, I
do think there's a merging.

I do think there's a blend, and I'm
really excited about it, and I think

everyone should be excited about it.

I was talking to someone recently,
and she's, she's VP of Design.

And I was like: "How's the team feeling?"

and she's like, "We're
having a lot of fun."

And that was, that made me really happy.

and I think the teams that are,
and the people that are, you know,

gonna thrive and should, like I want
everyone to thrive, but you have to be

excited about this and, and because it
kind of feels like a superpower too.

It kind of gets addictive
in Dessn, honestly.

You're like, "Do this, do this, do this."

And you just, you can produce artifacts
that you could never do before.

You can do animations, right?

Like, 'cause everything is
code at the end of the day.

And, yeah, I don't know if I answered
your question directly, but enough?

Jonny: Yeah.

it, did, yeah.

And I,

Gabriella: Okay

Jonny: the sort of merging of skill sets.

I mean, I think the, the hard
stuff, as always with all of this,

may end up being just change.

You know,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: take a while, and sometimes
generations of professionals to,

like, update their worldviews and, and

Gabriella: Agreed.

Jonny: well enough.

so do you f- do you find that there
is, like, an education to Dessn?

You know, y- the

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: then that is the, I suppose,
the, the, lever to, to force

everyone to think about everything
in a new way, and suddenly you're

Gabriella: Yes.

Yes.

absolutely.

And we, we have this term internally
called, we call it novelty budget,

and like how much novelty you can
introduce into the world, and into

workflows and things like that.

And we try to be cognizant about that.

But also, this is really powerful and
like we, you know, it could, it could

change, you know, so much so quickly.

there is a learning curve, but it's
a different type of learning curve.

It's a learning curve of power and like
what you are able to do versus skill.

And, and that's what, what
I, oh, Figma is a pro tool.

Like the amount of buttons and,
definitions you have to know

and like sys- you know, like
there's so much to be able…

It's a very powerful tool.

It was our favorite product
for a very long time.

it's a very powerful tool, but the,
the learning curve is very real.

and personally, I actually
never got to be a Figma expert.

but I still consider myself a good
designer because I think, you know, at

the thinking layer, I, I really am there.

and with Dessn, the learning curve
is not that we're actually all like

mostly prompt-based, and that's
another topic that to talk about

is the visual manipulation and, and
all of that, and the future and do

you believe in direct manipulation
and do you not and, and all of that.

but right now we are mostly
prompt-based, which means…

A- and we're all, you
know, we can all prompt.

and so the learning curve isn't there
from that perspective, but it's, there

is a bit of a blank canvas problem
of like, what can I do in here?

Dessn sounds really cool, and
it is really, really cool.

but what I'm realizing is from a product
building perspective, we need to do

better at communicating and, and the
value of, of how to get the most out of

Dessn because there's so much you can do.

and I think on infinite canvas,
onboarding is just gonna be easier and

better, because you can just produce
so many artifacts for the user in

ad- in advance, for them to, to use

Jonny: Dessn so far has been, you,
you've been looking at a prototype a

bit like, Lovable or something like

Gabriella: Exactly.

Jonny: a chat

Gabriella: Exactly

Jonny: you're moving to a canvas where
you can look at versions or different

iterations and, and options and, and
have that sort of zoom in and out.

Gabriella: Exactly.

Jonny: only listening,
I'm doing weird hand

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: this point.

Yeah.

Gabriella: yes, exactly.

Jonny: Yeah.

Gabriella: the-- It was exactly
that, and it was a cha- And so

because what we needed to solve first
was bringing you into production.

and that took a while.

That's a very hard thing to do.

I think it's, it's also a hard thing
to do across code bases, right?

Like, you can potentially build this
o-once, but scaling, like, across

code bases and being a product, in
an industry is, is a different thing.

and so yeah, we didn't-- I
wasn't gonna build another canvas

that wasn't production-based.

Like, the world has
enough of those, I think.

so, what we really wanted to solve
was that problem, and now that

it's solved, the right primitive
for design work is a canvas.

Like, that-- I, I don't disagree.

I actually very much agree with that.

but we needed to solve
that first thing first.

and we did.

And now we, we render all of your
pages from prod, like, fully.

It is your production.

I know, I know.

It's, it's so cool.

It's my favorite feature in the, in the
product because I've been waiting my whole

career, honestly, for that, to, to just be
able to pull my homepage and work on it.

The real thing, not an abstraction, not
a representation, not a fraction of it.

It is your production code.

Jonny: it and g- grabbed
that HTML and, like,

Gabriella: Yeah.

I…

Jonny: boxes out of it.

Yeah, yeah,

Gabriella: Exactly, exactly.

and so now that that's working,
yes, we're moving towards canvas.

sorry, I forgot the…

I think…

Oh, yes.

we were talking about how onboarding
will be better and the power of

using Dessn and the learning curve.

So on canvas, I think that will be
much more clear 'cause there's so much

surface area to present users with value.

but one thing, for example, is states.

So much about designing is states, right?

And designing for if user is admin,
you show this and, and all of that.

And in Dessn, you can just say, "Show me.

Give me a dropdown of all the
possible states a user could be in."

And it does.

And all of, all your states are
defined in your code, so you, you

can just pull them and work on them.

And so there's lear- like, that's
the learning curve is, like, what

you can do by being in production.

Another use case is, like,
an automated Storybook.

Like, we fully, we fully can do
that, and, and we, we kinda launched

it as a mini product offering.

But that's the thing, like, Dessn can
do so much, and so it's more about

packaging and really marketing at
that point, product marketing, which

is, you know, something I'm learning.

but there's so, so much core
value to extract from the existing

technology and how it works.

it's just about that education
layer with the user, more

than, like, skills kinda thing.

Tom: Gabriella, before we move
on too far, I mean, there's so

many threads we could pull from

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: as a, as a, as a theme, the
learning curve, before we move on

from that, I'm curious with the, the,
a tiny startup adopting Dessn, like

Gabriella: Yes.

Tom: designer versus a

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: late stage giant company that
has 100 designers, feels like a

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: very different kind of shape and
different sort of opportunity space.

Gabriella: It is

Tom: From, from a, from a sort of
transitioning workflows and, and adapting

workflows inside companies, have you
seen sort of trends or themes in terms of

the, the kinds of teams that are adopting
Dessn, and what kind of characteristics

or, or traits they have in their designers
or perhaps their PMs or their engineers?

Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

I think that you again
used the perfect words.

but it, it is about
characteristics and traits.

one of, like, our unique insights
is that, you know, the ICP or,

like, ideal customer profile.

What I've realized, and it's something
I've never experienced before, ICP

usually is based on, like, vertical
size, you know, a few thing…

a few very deterministic qualities.

but for us, I realized it's culture,
which is a very hard thing to qualify for.

It's a very hard thing to identify.

There are proxies, so if there's a
design engineer role on the team,

potentially, you know, something.

I don't know, like we're--
I'm trying to figure this out.

but what I've realized is it is
a bit culture-based, and if you

already believe that you should
be working in the code base.

Now, the world mostly has gone that
way, so we c-can come in as just a

better, easier solution for, for that.

But for a while, just believing that was,

Jonny: Mm.

Gabriella: a different,
thing that we had to tackle.

but so in terms of traits and
qualities, I think most of it comes from

leadership because that is very real.

Like, if leadership…

L-leadership defines culture
more than anything, right?

And so if they are not bought into the
vision and the outcomes and ev- like,

the technology and everything like
that, then unfortunately, even if the

user is very excited, it's probably
not going to be adopted very well.

And I, I've experienced it.

and it was such a great learning,
like, experience, and I was like, "Oh!"

And, but it's like the user was so
excited, and then you get blocked at

leadership and, and then as a founder, you
have to accept that I probably should let

go, and, and, you know, because you only
have so much time and resources, and where

you spend that is extremely important.

And that was hard for me, and Nim is much
better at this than me, because, yeah,

he's, he's … But this is where you
say no, and he's very good at saying no.

the PR thing, you know, all
of that, very much is Nim.

it, it makes sense to me, and
I'm like, "Yes, we" "I agree."

But it does come from him quite
a, quite a lot because I--

It's hard for me to say no.

I like-- I hate disappointing
people, and especially someone

who's excited about Dessn.

And I'm like, "Yes, we
can make this work."

but you do have to accept it at some
point if, if it's not gonna work.

Jonny: This is a, this is quite
a good transition into being

a first-time founder, I think.

Gabriella: Of

Jonny: I definitely have, what everything
you're saying reminds me of my similar

journey of, you know, to designers and
designers getting excited, and then you

realize that there's no wider support, and

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Designer has no money.

And, and

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: got, you've got to work out how to
navigate that while not disappointing them

and because they're you and you are they.

And, and,

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: any enthusiasm when you're
building something from zero is,

everything, is the most important thing.

So,

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: what-- So what has this
journey felt like to you over the

last two years of going from someone,
for whom I assume, I, I don't

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: has a, a good amount of
infrastructure around them and

something that is sort of running
and you play your role in it to

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: everything being on you?

Gabriella: it's hard.

it's very hard.

This is a very hard job.

it's, it's not for the faint-hearted.

it's really fun as well, and
extremely rewarding, and I don't

think I can be doing anything
else, and that's a me problem.

So this, that's just a, that's, yeah,
just a human, me as a human problem.

it's, but you learn-- the sp- the thing
is, the speed of learning is insane.

It's, it's unlike anything else, because
you're doing so much all the time.

And as head of product, I thought I
would be wearing many hats, and I was,

but this is a whole other level of hats.

Like, I'm a coat rack, you know?

Like, it's just, it's, it's…

But it's awesome.

And, you get to learn what you're
good at and what you're not, and

then lean on others for potentially
things that you're less good at.

I think I am good at a lot of things, and
Nim is extraordinary at so many things.

And then we're bo- we, we're very
complementary, which is really cool.

like, my brain works as a checklist.

I don't think he's ever written
a checklist in his life.

So, it works.

Like, it just, it works.

But there are, you know, gaps, and
you do have to look at how to fill

them together and with your team.

I do have a amazing team as well.

but the transition, has, is in flux.

Like, you're kind of always transitioning,
because I think your role as a

founder is also always changing.

And super early on, I was way more ops,
let's say, and, and setting up the company

and, like, all that kind of stuff while
Nim was first building the first version.

And that's, you know, completely changed.

I'm way more, I have to be in front
of customers, but so does Nim.

And so your role is also
constantly changing.

but it is, extremely fun.

Yeah.

Jonny: Yeah.

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Extremely fun, but also, I
attribute this quote unfortunately to Elon

Musk, but like chewing glass, at times.

You're,

There is, there is, there is
nothing really that you can do

at any point in time other than
just barge through that wall and

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: something the other side.

Gabriella: Yeah.

Yeah

Jonny: I, I sort of, yeah,
I feel the, I feel the pain.

you mentioned learning or learning

Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

Jonny: to sort of get out there.

I've found that very difficult.

I'm, I'm just interested in,

I think more specifically
because our audience is gonna

Gabriella: Yeah, we have a couple of

Jonny: folks, so

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: much like you.

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: what are some-- How would
you know if the next right thing for

you to do is take a big risk and do
something, start, start your own thing?

Like, w-what would the

Gabriella: Yeah.

A kind of, I think a feeling that
just won't go away probably is, is

kind of what I, what I accepted.

I'm like y- and I thought about
it very rationally as well.

I think, you know, being
a founder is glorified.

and I, I, I think, I think I'm pretty
intentional and I, I try to rationalize

things and, I probably would not
have to- been doing this if Nim and

I weren't also co-founders, right?

Like, there were so many pieces that
came together kind of perfectly.

And, and then also I was just like,
"Well, it's not gonna go away.

I, I, I have to."

Like, it's, it's not gonna go away.

Just go do it.

but there was, there was so much
about, my life and, and the situation

that made it, that made it work.

like, and it's almost like Nim
and I are so perfect that it

would've been a waste to not.

Like, there were so many
pieces that came together.

it was a time in a lo- in my life
where I could move and, and make

decisions for the company, prioritize
the company, and because you have to.

You, you have to put so much
of yourself into this thing.

And that's also one of the coolest
parts is to see m- m- myself dedicate

so much of myself to, to this one thing.

I don't know if it's healthy.

That's, again, another thing.

Jonny: Oh, it's not healthy.

It's definitely not healthy.

Gabriella: No, thank you.

I, I know it's not, but it is a version
of, pushing yourself so mu- like, you

know, athletes and, and how much they
dedicate time to this one thing, and

that is what Nim and I are doing, as
individuals, is just utmost dedication.

but it, it's not healthy, so that,
yeah, that's, that's another part of it.

but yeah

Tom: I realize you moved
from Montreal to, to London

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: that.

Was that, was that before Dessn
started or was that Dessn had

started and then you moved?

And I'm just curious if there's any
particular company related reasons why

London was the, the place you chose
versus say San Francisco or anywhere else

Gabriella: There absolutely are, but I, I,
yeah, I don't wanna get canceled for this.

we, yeah, so, Dessn was
started in Montreal.

It's still a Canadian company, and
I'm very proud of that, you know.

And I, I really am.

I lo- love Canada and I'm
a very proud Canadian.

but it was started there, and
then we actually spent some

time in New York for a while.

one of our, I don't know
if you know Betaworks.

They're amazing.

They're on the cafe, but
we spent time with them.

Huge shout-out 'cause they're awesome.

and then we considered New York as
potentially the place to build the

company, but life happened, things
happened, and we ended up in London.

but to be honest, SF wasn't too,
like, higher than London on that list.

for what we're doing, I do think,
being around more creative folks

and culture, probably is the right
environment to build what we're building.

That being said, I do spend a good
amount of time in SF because there are

incredible people building incredible
things and, it's a great place to be.

but I am very happy in London.

Yeah.

Jonny: I saw you were out in San

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: next week.

Gabriella: Yes, I am.

well, I'm actually going to
San Diego just before Valio

Con, Drew Wilson's conference.

Yes, Drew Wilson's having
a conference there.

They, they do it, I think he's
done it for a few years now, and he

invited me to speak and be on a panel.

That one's gonna be interesting because
it's a panel of design tool founders.

So it's myself, Stephen, you know, from
Paper, you know, a couple of others, and,

you know, all building for the same…

I think it's gonna be a, a
very interesting, discussion.

So, but I'm also, I think it's a great
group, so I'm excited to be there.

And so since I'm in San Diego,
I, of course, have to do,

SF while I'm on that coast.

yeah, so I'm doing the week after in
SF and having a couple events, but also

just m- you know, meeting people and,
and being present, I think is important

Jonny: I actually did want to
ask you about, competition.

I've been tracking design tools generally,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: last few months,
and there's a lot of them.

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: say.

some, some venture backed
and some, you know, open and

some small, some big, some…

There's a whole

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Now, and which is

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: I think a, a good healthy market.

But I'm interested in,
are you all frenemies?

Like, you know, how do you think about

Gabriella: Cursor

Jonny: in this, this landscape?

Gabriella: I mean, I do try to, you know,
have a positive and, abundance mindset.

Like, I respect e-everyone
who's doing this, a lot.

I don't agree with some
approaches and yeah, of course.

and I-- the cool thing is right
now, Dessn is uniquely executed.

Like, if you know what we do,
there is not a single other

company that does what we do.

And I don't think a lot of people
can say that, in our market.

There are very much comparables
with a lot of others.

But nobody runs your code base in the
cloud, so you can design on top of it.

Like, we are uniquely that.

and I, I believe that that's the
best way to solve the problem.

that's where you can potentially disagree
with others and, you know, people will

say, "No, this is enough," or, "That's
enough," or, you know, other, other ways.

But I…

And, and maybe we're talking about
different parts of the problem.

or we, we, you know, there's different
perspectives to the problem and, and what

you're working on and things like that.

But, yeah, the market,
we, we-- Yeah, go ahead.

Jonny: I was gonna say, do you see
yourself as having a common enemy?

Gabriella: probably.

probably, a little bit.

probably a little bit, yeah.

Yeah, that's fantastic

Jonny: I'd, I'd love to
just quickly go back.

We're sort of going back
10 minutes, but I wanted to

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: you really just briefly
touched on tools versus thinking

as the role of a designer and, and,

Gabriella: Mm.

Jonny: and as leverage.

Tom,

Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

Jonny: for those who-- people
who've listened to the last two

or three episodes of the podcast,
we've talked about that as well.

and this shift from owning the
craft to designers owning the output

or the, the, the outcome or the,

the, the stage in the process
rather than the specifics of,

you know, drawing the rectangles.

You know, we, we don't have to be
rectangle operators anymore, and,

and I know that you believe that.

But,

we always like to ask our guests
h-how they would navigate the

world if they were designers today.

so, from what you've seen, and, you know,
there's the, the, the c- the scale context

or the, culture context, as you mentioned.

But,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: if I'm a designer and
thinking about where I should push,

should I push deeper into the code?

Should I push deeper into,
you know, my thinking?

Like, what

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: over the next 10 years?

Do you have a sense?

Gabriella: I think what protects
you is a, is a big question.

Jonny: And,

Gabriella: But what I…

Jonny: question to answer,

Gabriella: Yeah, it's,
it's an impossible one.

Thanks.

what I, what I, what has- what's coming
up is I think you should form an opinion,

and you should have an opinion about
how you wanna work and a little bit

and, and where you should be working,
and then find a way to work like that.

I think maybe there's too much just…

People are a bit lost, and
they're like, "What do I do?"

And so we're adopting things that…

or trying things and adopting workflows
that may not be the best ways of working,

but because someone else is doing it.

And I get that because it's,
it is crowded, and it's

loud, and it's exhausting.

so you kinda just wanna pick something
and do it, and it's, if it's working

for them, then I should be doing
that, you know, that kinda thing.

But, it's a really cool space to, to have
an opinion about, and I think, yeah, I

think more people should potentially,
choose, intentionally select and choose,

how they wanna work and find a way to work
like that, more than, more than just kind

of adopting what other people are doing.

I- that's easier said than done because,
because of all the reasons I mentioned,

of it being loud and exhausting and
crowded and what the hell is going on.

so I get that.

But, yeah, I think, I think that might
be the best path forward as it…

Well, or to your question, if
I was a designer entering the

market right now, I, I would do
research and, like, deep research.

And that does mean trying things.

but then you should form an opinion.

Like, if it's suboptimal, like,
you don't have to settle anymore.

Like, that's the best thing about this
era is you actually don't have to settle.

so yeah.

Jonny: Yeah, it, it feels like choice.

It feels like autonomy and

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: And to, to reflect on the
previous era of design tooling where you

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: really have a choice
and you were beholden to one

roadmap, and you were beholden

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: of working because that's how
everyone in every company ever was doing

it, so why would you do it any different?

You know, you just wouldn't be qualified
for the job if you did it a different way.

Gabriella: Yes.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jonny: or

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: the shape that you actually--
that's compelling for you.

That is, exciting.

I would imagine for people to hear that's
kind of scary as well, because suddenly I

don't get to just watch, the masters and

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: follow their lead.

but I like to think, you know, if you got
into design then you got into it to think

creatively about how to solve a problem
and find a unique way of solving it, and

find the right way for you or for your
company or whichever context you're given.

Gabriella: I agree

Jonny: it shouldn't be scary
over the longer term, but

Gabriella: No,

Jonny: the

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: and the, the amount of noise.

And Gabriella, you know, you're, you're
part of the-- I'm not gonna say you're

part of the noise, but you, but you are,
but, you know, you-- there are, there are

multiple ways of thinking about this now

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: and feels great and

Gabriella: Yes.

Yeah

Jonny: but to-- back to the, the
going to market and marketing point of

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Have you-- it sounds like
this is a journey you're on.

Like, h- have

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: anything that really hooks
people into Dessn's way of thinking,

Gabriella: Yeah.

So what does it is when I pitch like
that's kind of what I realized is because

I do know the problem really deeply
and, I think I can articulate why Dessn

is the right solution really well.

But translate that into a landing page
is a very hard thing to do, and so that's

what we're-- that's our next challenge.

because I can't be on every call,
and people won't take a call

with me all the time, right?

Like, so that's where marketing and
packaging and like all of this comes in.

The, the noise part is very real.

Like I, I do get annoyed
sometimes, and I'm like, "Dude,

you're making the problem worse.

Like you're creating
another source of truth."

Like you-- like I, I really don't believe
in, in so much of these solutions.

I think they make it worse actually.

The-- In my analysis and understanding
of the problem, of the, of product

development and how it works, creating
another source of truth is not the way

to solve this, in my opinion, right?

And, and so much of this.

And-- But it creates noise and it's
like, "But how are you different then?"

And, and then, and then that's our job
to, to be able to answer that really well.

And I do have really good answers
personally, but is it-- translate that

into a quick two-center, you know, and
putting that on the website and making

sure it's there, it, it's there when
they wanna-- when they need the answer.

You know, like, and, and all this
stuff about, about building, like

company building that comes up.

Jonny: There's a

Gabriella: but yes,

Jonny: that you're fighting, you know,

Gabriella: absolutely

Jonny: when people are being sold
to all the time and, and told

about new things all the time, and

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: pop up and then disappear
and are never found again,

and other, other things last.

And

Gabriella: Yes.

Tom: Yeah,

Jonny: you know?

Gabriella: Yes, it is,

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: I wrote a small piece, a
few weeks ago, and I, I, I called it

From FOMO to Fatigue because I watched
the industry go from FOMO and hype

and excitement, and we never rode the
hype wave because we weren't ready to.

The product was not gonna
deliver on all those promises.

Now it does.

It actually does.

It works really well because
the models have come-- have

caught up to our, our vision.

That's also a testament, I think, to
Nim and, and how he's built Dessn,

uh, from a product perspective.

it wasn't working, it wasn't working,
it wasn't working, and then it worked.

you know, and, and now it's,
it's working across code bases,

and it's just, it's working.

So,

Jonny: Yeah.

Gabriella: But it's a testament of to what
you believe in and conviction as a founder

and how you're gonna keep building,
with the future that keeps changing.

but yeah, the, the, the industry
is tired, rightfully so.

there's been a slew of broken promises.

I kinda want our headline to just be
like, "No broken promises," because

I, I, I worked so hard really to…

We care a lot about not-- about
people loving the product.

and we have test, like, feedback that
is-- You couldn't-- I, I always do.

I'm like, "You can't make this shit up."

Like, it's, it's just like
you can't buy these reactions.

You literally-- I couldn't make them up.

but the challenge from a product and
company standpoint is scaling that quality

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: that's really important to us.

so anyway

Tom: Question.

I, I loved hearing about you
describing as a founder or visionary

for this experience, you're sort
of thinking ahead about the future.

You're building a

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: kind of broken today, but it then
suddenly the models are capable enough

that it starts working really well.

Gabriella: Yeah

Tom: heard similar themes from how Claude
approach or Anthropic approach product

development and other sort of very AI
forward-thinking, labs and companies.

But I'm curious to take that insight
that you have now of like going

from something that doesn't quite
work to something that does work.

What is the version of that that's one
year out or two years out for Dessn?

Like where, where are the things that
you think that are maybe not quite

working yet, but in a year or two
they're gonna be like really front and

center in, making or breaking this as
a, an incredible product experience?

Gabriella: One is speed, a-and latency.

the, the balance of, of quality and
latency has been a really interesting

or, yeah, it's been a challenge in Dessn.

We have optimized for quality because it's
was the most important thing for users.

like, if it's just crap
output, you're gonna bounce.

Like, you're not even gonna
stay for, for anything else.

So we've optimized for
really high-quality output.

I've had comments that it was…

it's been better than Claude
Code, and, and I think that that

is a focus on design, right?

The general purpose coding assistance
versus a design use case, agent.

so we do a lot around the
agents, not just a model out of

the box, but a lot around it.

but I think speed is gonna be some--
speed and performance is something

that is, that the, there's way
less tolerance and patience for.

There used to be a bit more, uh,
with Dessn, uh, because it was crazy.

But as, as other tools get better,
we have to, we have to keep getting

better, and speed and latency, I
think is gonna be something that

we, that we need to get better at.

Our, with our new canvas, um, we…

Nim was like, um, he wasn't gonna
sleep until it was a hundred

twenty frames per second, and I…

and we, we got there, which is nuts.

Like, a whole…

The frame is your code base, uh,
in Dessn, like on the canvas.

and he-- and when you put
four, my laptop crashed.

That's…

And

I was like, "Nim, we can't launch this."

And he's like, "Okay, okay."

You know?

And the, the…

I mean, the guy didn't sleep, un-
and, and he, you know, made it work.

So it's, but it's dedication
to, to quality, right?

We're not gonna launch
that, that kind of thing.

But yeah, so and I, I would
say speed is one of the things,

that we're looking ahead to.

And another thing I think about and
s- kind of worries me, we're like, how

much are we building for user action
versus proactivity from the agent?

so a l- a lot of people ask
us for direct manipulation and

these things, and I get it.

But I do think The agent's
gonna do more and more, right?

and be more proactive
in, in at least creation.

What I believe that the role is
going to be mostly is cu- a curator,

Jonny: Mm-hmm.

Gabriella: which it really excites me
'cause I think that's the most fun part.

It's always been the most fun part.

it might make people anxious from
like, you know, the skill layer,

but that, that was never, that was
never the high leverage work anyway.

The high leverage work was designer
deciding this was the right thing to do.

And so you get to do that.

I think the future is you be- being able
to do that in a much more fun way and

like, in a, in, in a different way, versus
moving the pixels, just like coding.

We're not writing the code, but we're
more like, "Hey, this is the right

approach," and that kind of direction.

So when I think one year out, I'm, I'm…

I am slightly worried about how
much we're doing to, to answer

these requests that are coming in
now versus kind of this vision that

we have about the future of design

Jonny: It's the challenge
of a roadmap, isn't it?

You, you,

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: build the things that people
excited in the short term while having to

Put them in very clearly internally
in the box of like, we're doing this

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: the next, to the next fundraise

Gabriella: exactly.

Jonny: We're-- Yeah.

Gabriella: Yes.

Yeah

Jonny: yeah, yeah.

Fascinating.

I think that's quite a good sly, spicy
opinion, by the way, about canvas, but no

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: because I

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: they c- I would
imagine, I don't know this for

Gabriella: It is spicy

Jonny: a canvas, they're like, "Okay,
now I get my canvas tools," and then they

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: Have the canvas tools,
and they're like, "But…"

so,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: able to explain to people
that they have the canvas to be

able to get the full understanding
of what's going on, and they,

Gabriella: Right

Jonny: they can navigate around the design
in the way that they would want to, and

Gabriella: Right

Jonny: the primary way of designing
is through natural language rather

than through direct manipulation
is, is, is-- I think it's

Gabriella: It's not fun.

Jonny: but, but working out how
to bring teams on a journey around

that will be, I w- I would imagine
will be really interesting.

Gabriella: It is that, like, there's so
much familiarity that you're fighting

against, and having to convince people
that I promise this is gonna be better.

Like, you know, but they're
just so, they're just so used

to something, and I, I get it.

and this is where early adopters and
late adopters are a thing, right?

Like, and this is where, you know, saying
no and accepting that, "Hey, maybe,

you know, maybe you're not our user
right now," and, and, and that's okay.

Again, really hard for me, but,

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: but it's something I'm trying
to be better at because there are people

that are going to build this with you.

Like, our, our users build
with us, like, truly.

they go through the pain, and they're
willing to go through the pain with us

because, I don't know, they believe in it.

I-- it's, it's amazing.

but yeah, I, I think there's
some version of, yeah, if a user

is right for you at that stage.

Another thing I think, I think it was
Scott Belsky was-- I think he said, "You

don't want all your customers at once."

And, like, there is a
bell curve for a reason.

yeah, and, and that
resonates a lot with me.

But yeah, the direct manipulation
conversation comes up often,

and it's, 'Cause you're right,
like Ca-Canvas is a primitive.

Like, it is just, it's a canvas.

But we have-- And I remember once someone
asked me, and it was more from investment

side or, like the, not a user side.

someone was like, "So you're building for
designers, so where's your visual editor?"

And I was like, when did a feature
become synonymous with a role?

And, and, that-that's what has
happened, and I don't-- I, I, yeah,

I, I don't think it's, you know,
right, and I think we should rethink

these pieces a bit more fundamentally.

Tom: Absolutely.

I think there's, another sort of thread
in the conversation happening right

now in the, in the world at large,
to be around personalization and

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: the idea of moving from these
general purpose tools that provide

some utility into something that is
hyper-specific to an individual's use

Gabriella: Mm.

Tom: maybe a, a

Gabriella: Mm-hmm.

Tom: We, with a designer, Anthropic,
on the podcast, recently who was

talking about a custom tool that
they built to, for a specific slice

of design challenge, which was
more around sort of growth design.

And I'm, I'm kinda curious how you think
about this of role of personalization in

creating an experience like this where
you're sort of trying to You mentioned

the how much is agentic versus how much
is on the human, but then I think there's

also this personalization mystery box of

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: how does that feed
into this experience?

Obviously, the code base
will to an extent, but, but

Gabriella: Yeah

Tom: tooling and capability
and workflow feels like

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: be, could be very unique to
an individual or a team, and I'm

curious how that, how that factors
into the design of this tool.

Gabriella: We think about it a lot.

We think that Dessn can be a really
great primitive for individualized

workflows, and personalized workflows.

and we think about it maybe from a
plugin system where you can bring-- build

plugins and, and customize your workflow.

Like we, It is something that
we are thinking about, actively.

Um, and I think Dessn can be the
right layer, the right infra, right?

We run your code base.

We-- But, but your workflow is, I
was talking to a really big health

tech and, you know, they have so many
gates that they have to go through

and like regulatory appro-- you
know, like s- it's just so unique.

and, and then you to, you know,
advertising is completely different

and it's more client-based and,
you know, all this type of stuff.

Jonny: Mm-hmm.

Gabriella: and I, I, I do believe that
the workflow should be personalized.

You now live in a world
where it can be as well.

and I, I, I'm excited
about Dessn being that.

It can be and it will be.

Yeah

Jonny: But at your heart, you
represent HTML as a source of

truth, on top of that you can build
really whatever, whatever you want.

Gabriella: Yes.

Like, React actually more than

Jonny: React, sorry.

Gabriella: 'cause yeah.

It

Jonny: which is-- which compiles to HTML.

Gabriella: does, it does, it does.

You're right.

there, there's also like some-- we--
Nim has this crazy project in mind where

he, well, I mean, mobile keeps coming
up, and iOS Native and things like that.

So we support React Native now.

It's not been announced, but like
we have a few customers now on,

on React Native, so that's cool.

But iOS is like a whole other,
iOS Native is a whole other,

technology and way harder.

So he's trying to build or wants,
he wants to buy a Mac Mini so that

Jonny: I was

Gabriella: we just…

Jonny: actual Macs to compile

Gabriella: Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: it would be a crazy
project to be able to basically

run an emulator for the web.

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: yes, exactly, to your point,
just the source of the principle of

you're working in your source of truth

Jonny: Yeah

Gabriella: with workflow layers
that are customized and, and

personalized above that, I think

Jonny: Yeah.

Gabriella: sense to me.

Yeah

Jonny: Yeah, it's the
right place to start.

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: We should switch
over to quick fire.

I feel like we could ask

Gabriella: Okay.

Jonny: more questions and/or
get into like a whole product

brainstorm here, but we, we

Gabriella: Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Jonny: podcast that other
people will listen to.

So, let's, move to quick fires.

Gabriella: Okay

Jonny: you know, answer it in
a few words if, if you can,

Gabriella: Okay

Jonny: and hopefully not
too much on the spot.

But I'll start, which is,

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: If you weren't a-- usually
the, the-- usually this is if you

weren't a designer, but I'll, I'll say

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: founder.

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: a designer and founder anymore,
um, say, uh, Dessn's gone very well

and you're, you know, post, economic
or whatever, founders call themselves,

what would you do with your time?

Gabriella: My instinct, like you don't
know, you know, how your mindset is

gonna change really and things like that.

But what I would like to do is probably
open a wine bar, and, create a, a--

I, I love cooking, and have a, a nice
little menu, that I create and run,

and enjoy, that part of life because
I, I do care about that part of

life and I find a lot of joy in it.

being around people I love, good
food and good wine is, is the

epitome, and it's something I don't
get to do, very often anymore.

So yeah, that's my answer

Jonny: Would that be in Montreal?

Gabriella: maybe it's in
London or maybe Madrid.

I do love Spain.

Tom: Yeah.

choices

Jonny: No,

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: cut out Spain.

London.

Gabriella: No Spain.

Tom: great.

Second quickfire question.

what's your favorite

Gabriella: Yes

Tom: that you've used recently?

Physical, digital, anything

Gabriella: So my, one of my
favorite products is a spatula.

it's the, it's the
perfect cooking, artifact.

Like, it's so good for sauces, for,
honestly, for so many different things.

It is so adaptive and, produces
really good outputs and

outcome for what you need.

It's easy, it's easy to wash, it's
easy to grab, it's affordable.

Like, it's, it hits a lot of the
marks in the cooking workflow.

Tom: Specific spatula

Gabriella: the, the silicone,
the silicone end ones.

Yeah.

I, because then they're easy to wash.

They, they don't get sticky, like, yeah.

Jonny: Amazing.

tools.

the last thing that you

Gabriella: Yeah

Jonny: from your, either your
digital stack or your life?

Gabriella: Yeah.

I, I do go back and forth with,
like, deleting, social media.

so like X sometimes, Instagram sometimes
I, I, I'll delete them for a period

of time, and then I bring them back.

X is really hard with work
because it is a real channel for

me, you know, and I meet people.

I've met amazing pe- I've, I've met
Kevin, who's our employee number one

on, on E- on X, so I cannot have it
outside of my life, for long periods

of time, but I like to take breaks.

I try to

Tom: Very healthy.

Good.

Good work.

final quickfire question.

What is the silliest or most non-obvious
AI hack you do or you have seen others do?

Gabriella: AI hack.

Hmm

It's pr- it's not silly,
but I do use like…

And, and I see other
people using it as well.

I love seeing my mom use, you know,
ChatGPT and, and things like that.

It's very endearing and,
and, and also, like, good.

She uses it for good stuff, which
is like taking a picture and saying,

like, translate, and, and these pieces.

So not silly, but, I think it is good,
impact, you know, on, on like making these

pieces accessible to you that may have
not, otherwise not been accessible to you.

For me, sometimes it'll, be, poetry
or like, if I see w- written words in

languages I don't understand, I'll,
I'll shoot that over and I, I like

that because I, I, yeah, I think so
much written word is in languages

that you don't have access to.

and it's one of the most, it's one
of the pieces that's made accessible

that I appreciate the most.

so I…

It's…

Sorry, it's n- it doesn't, it's
not silly, but it is, yeah,

Jonny: have to be silly.

Good.

Gabriella: yeah.

Okay.

Tom: a good answer.

Good answer

Gabriella: Okay, great

Jonny: My mum, my mum calls, ChatGPT
ChatBGT, as in Britain's Got Talent.

so you know, that on its
own is endearing to me.

Gabriella: It is

Jonny: using it, you know, her, her,
Altman will be watching her graph

go up and to the right, you know.

So

Gabriella: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, I- same here.

it's interesting to see them use
it as well, and for what they

use it and, and what they still
use, go to potentially Google for

and, like, traditional search UXs

Jonny: Completely.

Gabriella, w- we're gonna wrap up.

question is, where do we find you?

What's coming up?

What do you wanna shout out?

Gabriella: Yes.

you can find out-- You can find
me on LinkedIn, on X, or by email.

So it's, it's gabriella@dessn.ai.

I'm happy to talk to any
designer all the time.

our website is dessn.ai

or dessn.com.

Um, so both are in our…

Thank you.

We've had it from day one.

We just never activated it.

It's a whole story.

so you can find us there.

we are launching-- We are currently in
private beta for our infinite canvas

experience, and we are coming out of
private beta, and into public beta

in probably a few weeks, is the hope.

performance things that
we're, we're ironing out.

but if you're interested in being a
part of the beta, we are constantly

onboarding n-new people just in
cohort batches and things like that.

if you are interested, please reach out.

Jonny: Awesome.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for being on.

This was

Gabriella: Thank you

Jonny: And, hopefully we can chat
again sometime and we'll see, see

Gabriella: Yes.

Jonny: to in a year's time and, you know,

Gabriella: Yeah.

Jonny: matured.

Gabriella: Yes

Jonny: best of luck in San Francisco

, Gabriella: you.