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A board-certified family law attorney, Jaime Davis and her guests provide information and tips for getting through a separation and divorce without destroying family relationships or finances. From marriage therapists and financial planners to private investigators and parenting coordinators, learn how to navigate divorce without destruction.
Jaime - 00:00:05:
Welcome to A Year and a Day. I'm Jaime Davis, board-certified family law attorney at Gailor Hunt. On this show, I talk with lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with the goal of helping you navigate divorce without destruction. In this episode, I'm talking with Sarah Armstrong, a leading advocate for the concept of good divorce. Currently serving as the Vice President of Global Marketing Operations at Google. Sarah is not only a corporate trailblazer, but she is also the author of The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce. Her journey as a devoted mother to her daughter, Grace, who was just seven years old when Sarah underwent her own divorce, provides a unique perspective on navigating the complexities of family life during challenging times. Today, Sarah will share her insights on fostering positive divorces, drawing from her personal experiences, and shedding light on practical tips for parents facing similar challenges. Thanks for joining me, Sarah.
Sarah - 00:01:05:
Thanks for having me, Jaime. Great to be with you.
Jaime - 00:01:08:
So can you share your personal journey and the inspiration behind becoming a proponent of good divorce?
Sarah - 00:01:16:
Yeah, I'd be happy to. And, you know, before we start, I like to start by saying, just for the record, I'm actually not an advocate for divorce. In an ideal world, couples that get married stay married for the long term, you know, but unfortunately these days that's not always the case. And so I think it's important to just highlight that first. My parents have been married for 55 years. So I had this model of an amazing couple to watch growing up. What happened in my situation is, as you mentioned, I got divorced when my daughter was seven. And going through that process, and actually as I watched my parents' happy marriage, I did see some very negative divorces growing up. And so as we went down this path, I thought, what would it take to do this differently and to keep grace and focus every step of the way? And so I really kind of went on a journey per se with my ex-husband to figure out what that would look like. And over the years since my divorce, so I got divorced when she's seven. She's 21 now, by the way. So 14 years later. But in the first five years post our divorce, I had a number of girlfriends who had made their own decision to go down this path. And they would ask me for help and ask me to help them think through things. And so I'd sit down with them generally over a bottle of wine in my living room and talk through things and give them some advice. At the end of each of their respective journeys, they said, you really need to write this stuff down. And somehow I'd kind of become a poster child for a good divorce. And I would say to them, well, I'm not a writer. I'm in the business world. I'm not going to write a book or anything. But I was actually at a business dinner in Mexico City, and a colleague of mine turned to me, and he said, Sarah, you're so happy. And I said, yeah. And he said, I said, I'm really happy. He said, but you're divorced. And I said, suddenly getting a divorce is not a death sentence. I said, my ex-husband and I decided to, you know, no longer be married to each other, but I'm happy. Grace is happy. My ex-husband's happy. I said, we're all really happy. And yes, we've gone through divorce. And I mentioned that... You know, some of my friends have been encouraging me to write my thoughts and tips and guidance down and write a book. He said, you really should do that. And so the next morning I was flying out of Mexico City. I opened up my personal laptop and I wrote the line that said, this book has been written by a girl who never ever thought she would get a divorce, who got a divorce and what she wrote along the way. And then I wrote about 90% of it flying around the world for my job on Delta and got to the point where I was ready to put an end to the world. But what's interesting, Jaime, is that the concept of a good divorce, I don't think there's enough conversation about the concept of a good divorce within society. And I'd really like to help kind of shift societal perception of what a good divorce would look like. But Grace was actually the one that coined the term for me. We were standing at a CVS checking out and this was a year after our divorce, so she was eight. And there was a People magazine on the newsstand. And there's a celebrity couple getting a divorce. And she looks at me, she goes, Mommy, is that a good divorce or a bad divorce? I said, Grace, I don't know. What's the difference between a good divorce and a bad divorce? She said, well, good divorce is when the mommy and daddy are nice to each other like you and daddy. And a bad divorce is when they scream and yell at each other. And I stopped there, Jaime, at that moment and thought, And I didn't say to her, Grace, it's hard to tell from the magazine cover what type of divorce that is. But as we walked out of the CVS that day, I thought, you know what, whatever we're doing, a year after significantly changing Grace's life, where she's now living across two households and all that comes with divorce, that she could say we had a good divorce. It felt like we were on to something. And that we need to continue on that path of how we were co-parenting, raising her together.
Jaime - 00:05:10:
So I love all of that. I love your approach to the divorce process. That's what I try to counsel my clients, that it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. You can both get through this. You can both be happy. And you can co-parent your child. And to hear your daughter say that about good divorces versus bad divorces must have been so powerful. They are so perceptive. And they pick up on all of these things that we don't even realize that they're picking up on. So kudos to you for taking such a wonderful path for your family.
Sarah - 00:05:43:
Thank you. Thank you. No, I think that the fact that Grace could perceive it that way at that stage was a poignant moment for me, quite honestly. I'm just like, wow, okay. And I think the hard part, Jaime, is when I see, you know, I always say that, you know, when couples get married, obviously, first of all, no one gets married thinking they're going to get divorced.
Jaime - 00:06:04:
Right.
Sarah - 00:06:05:
It's not like the plan is.
Jaime - 00:06:06:
Yeah.
Sarah - 00:06:07:
And generally, no one's getting divorced for positive reasons. Something has triggered that decision. But children are the ones that are so significantly impacted by that decision, but they don't have a say in the matter, right? And as couples, when we bring children into the world, we make a commitment to them, to bring them up in the safest, healthiest, happiest environment possible. And if we're not careful, they can be collateral damage in this divorce process. You know, they really can have such significant negativity around them all the time. And I say that, you know, we cover the plugs and we put bite cones on them and we feed them organic milk. You know, we do all these things to keep them safe and happy and healthy. But then what can come from a divorce, if you're not careful, can be a very toxic environment that you can place them in. And that toxicity can have long-term impact on how children view relationships. How they view marriage. How they even view their own self-worth and happiness and all those things. So the stakes are really high. And I just would love people to really step back and think about. Even though you no longer want to interact or be with that person that you were once married to. Your children deserve to be in that happiest, healthiest, safest environment possible. Mentally, physically, emotionally, and I think it's up to us to cope very well. For our children. And I know, by the way, Jaime, there's instances where this might be tough because of very specific circumstances. So I recognize that that might not always be the case, but in a large percentage of divorces, I think couples can really take a moment, pause and think, what's best for my kids in these moments?
Jaime - 00:07:53:
Well, and, you know, people don't think about this often, but sometimes divorce can actually be better for the child if the home itself is toxic, right? Like if you have two parents who are fighting and arguing all the time and it's occurring in front of the child. You know, those parents are, again, modeling marriage for their child. And so that's what they're learning. But if those folks can separate and get along and be amicable and have two happy, healthy households for the child, that could sometimes even be better.
Sarah - 00:08:25:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I do think, you know, there's such a stigma, Jaime, in society about the concept of being divorced. Sure. You know, and I think for certain people, it's like they would rather not live with that stigma. And live in the negativity and have their children live in the negativity of an unhealthy relationship. And I think that's really, I think that's really. Fundamental of what I'm trying to highlight is, you know, if you have to go through this, you know, getting divorced is an action. You get divorced. It does not need to be a negative cloud. That follows you and your children and even your ex-spouse for the rest of your lives. You know, it happened. It's a moment and it's a point in your history. But I think there is absolutely a way to live a really positive, happy life after going through this very significant life change that, again, I wouldn't choose for anyone to go through. I truly would love everyone to stay happily married, but when that's not the case. And if you're trying to think about whether for you, you know, what the pros and cons of it are just really think about the environment that you're raising your children in to your point. And what does that look like? And I just, you know, it's interesting. I had had one person say to me, Sarah, you know, I, you know, I know one other couple that's had a good divorce like you, you and your ex-husband. I think, wow. Only one other couple. Wouldn't it be great if most couples, you know, approached it in a way where that was the norm and not this rare exception, where when I say that I've written a book with the topic of divorce in it, people like Razor are like, really? And so I think that that's what I'd love to help change is this mindset. That it's going to be this negative thing that follows you.
Jaime - 00:10:04:
Yeah. And I mean, even if it's not, you know, good per se, at least there are things that you can do to make it less terrible, right?
Sarah - 00:10:11:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's, I think it's a great point, Jaime, because by the way, most of what I talk about in my book and in a lot of the kind of themes I talk about, this isn't necessarily easy to do. And I talk about taking the high road and sometimes the high road can be really steep. And really tough to take, but it's generally and always, I think, worth it for your children to put that in view every time your buttons might be being pushed. And I talk about building a compartmentalization muscle. Which I think all of us in life potentially need, not just because, not just in instances where you're going through divorce, but, you know, the emotions are high, you know, in a divorce scenario. And as you probably experience with your clients and they can be very... You know, almost a roller coaster of emotions. But when children are involved, And as you mentioned earlier, they see and hear and observe everything. And so in the moments where emotions are high, you have to think, is this a time when I want my children to see these emotions from me? Or do I need to take a deep breath and say, you know what, I'm not saying to internalize those emotions and never let them out. I'm just saying when your children are in view or in earshot, is that the time to express what you're thinking or to react to the moment? Or do you say, you know what, I'm going to set that aside for a minute. I'll go talk to a friend, a therapist, a family member going along walk by myself, pick whatever path, but sharing those emotions with your children in those moments. Depending on the age and you quit asking, almost regardless of the age, it's going to impact them and not for the positive.
Jaime - 00:11:47:
I mean, I agree completely with you. I mean, the child's place is to be a child, regardless if it's an adult child.
Sarah - 00:11:55:
Absolutely.
Jaime - 00:11:55:
They should not be in the middle of these adult conversations. They should not be burdened with these very heavy emotions that you may be feeling, especially if you're the spouse that doesn't necessarily want a divorce, right? Like maybe you were blindsided by this whole process and you want to stay married. You know, your child should not be the sounding board for those things.
Sarah - 00:12:18:
No, yeah, I really think that's important because... Again, regardless of age, and even to your point, even adult children have a hard time processing. You know, what they're hearing about the other parent or the moments of how do I react? Well, that's my mom and my dad that you're talking about. And I still love them and I know that you don't love them or you're not one. So I just, I think you put them in a very challenging and awkward position of how they're meant to react in those moments as well. Which can be really tough, really tough.
Jaime - 00:12:46:
Your book, The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce, offers insights and guidance for having an amicable and positive divorce process. What are some of those key principles or strategies that you believe contribute to a positive divorce experience when children are involved?
Sarah - 00:13:03:
I would start with the mindset. And it goes back to having a mindset, a positive intent of what you're trying to do in this divorce process. And it always comes back to that. But then there are things, I think, in the way that you manage your child's life. And one of the things I had a very... A moment in our process that really struck me and it sticks with me to this day, we were sitting down to tell Grace again at age seven. But about a week before we were going to do that, we sat down with the child specialist and talked to them because Grace was going to see them. After we told her the news. And he looked at me and he said, Sarah, do you travel? And I said, yes, I travel internationally for my job. And he looks at my ex-husband and says, do you travel? He said, yes, I travel domestically. He said, well, Grace is about to become a professional traveler. She's going to travel every week. The next 11 years until she goes off to college and she's going to have to pack a bag. And I burst into tears. I burst into tears and I thought, that's not what I want for her. That's not the life I want for her. So I walked out of that session, Jaime, and I looked at my ex-husband and said, I don't know what this looks like. But I want to figure out how to minimize. Grace feeling like she's a professional traveler and having to pack a bag every week. And so now I do realize what I'm about to share has some socioeconomic considerations, but what we decided to do is to have all the basics at both homes. So the socks, the underwear, you know, an extra pair of running shoes. And then so she would be able to go out to leave the door, or sorry, leave the house, walk out the door with her backpack for school. And not be carrying an extra bag, and not be the kid in the purple line with the extra bag because that's the night she's going to mom or dad's house. And I do say in a kind of lighthearted way, somehow all the socks ended up at one house. I don't know how.
Jaime - 00:14:53:
Always, always, always.
Sarah - 00:14:55:
How did they get there? I'm not sure how they all migrated. But So what we'd have is actually rebalancing days. And I would text my ex-husband and say, hey, we don't have any socks over here. Could you just double check what's, you know, at your place now? By the way, this isn't, this isn't, I didn't say that to Grace. Like, hey, check at your dad. See what. It's not she's 7, 8, 9, 10. She shouldn't have to rebalance her wardrobe. And figure out where her things are. She didn't choose to live across two homes. So it was up to us to go into her drawers, figure out what was, you know, duplicative, put it in a bag, and then bring it to the other person and hand it to the person and then that other parent was meant to put it back in the drawers. Again, Grace shouldn't have to go reorganize her drawers and unpack. Just because she's living across too. So. I use this as an example because I do think it's the day-to-day moments of a child of divorce. That either reinforce that they're living this very different life than all the other kids down the street, Or you can try to make it as seamless and normal for them as possible, given that they're living across two households, which can be a real challenge in the logistics of life, get complicated in a two household family structure.
Jaime - 00:16:04:
Yeah, and I think that can be especially challenging, too, once children start participating in a lot of extracurricular activities and you've got the soccer gear and the uniforms and the whatever.
Sarah - 00:16:14:
Absolutely. And yeah, and sometimes, so for example, where we could, we tried to get two sets of uniforms, so we weren't going back and forth. But for example, Grace played golf when she was growing up, and we only had one set of golf clubs. They had to be where they needed to be. I also joke about, you know, one morning she came down and it was dress-up day at school. And we only had one pair of dress-up shoes. I wasn't going to buy two. And she comes down and she says, my dress-up shoes are at Dad's house. Now, in that moment, we're rushing out the door to try to make it to school on time. And I had to take a deep breath and think, first of all, it's not her fault that her dress-up shoes are at dad's house. It just happens that that's where they landed. And I thought, okay, great. Well, let's go. Now my ex-husband happened to live 10 minutes away. And I just thought, let's go get him at dad's house. Now we were going to be late for school. Okay. But, again, it wasn't her fault, you know, and I couldn't say, well, Grace, why didn't you remember it was dress-up day? Why didn't you bring your shoes, you know, bring your shoes and duds? That's not her, you know, that shouldn't be her responsibility. So, you know, those, but to your point about the special things or the single items, it is. There's a lot of, managing those dynamics that are part of it and just not making your child feel badly if those things end up in a place they're not meant to be. Because they're a kid. They're supposed to just be figuring out their their day-to-day, the managing across two households is a whole other dynamic that they shouldn't have to be the health account before.
Jaime - 00:17:37:
Well, and all of those things are fixable, right? Like they shouldn't be these big deals that we harp on. If you have to stop by the store on the way to school to buy a pair of shoes, guess what? That's what you do if it keeps your child happy.
Sarah - 00:17:50:
Yeah, yeah. And there's just moments. There's moments where you do have to take that deep breath and go, okay, okay, let's just go figure this out. And, you know, so that's one of those that I think is important. The other thing, as you asked that question in terms of the physical environment, you know, that your child is living in, especially as the change is happening, the transition between everyone being in the same house and potentially two different homes. You know, there's obviously different scenarios that couples go through. Some people, when someone stays in the original house, sometimes you both move. In our situation, Grace and I were staying in the home we were living in through the marriage. And then Matt's husband was moving to another home. And we had a long hallway of black and white photos. That were interspersed in my ex-husband's family, my family, and I needed to obviously give him his photos. And so I took the time to have other photos printed and put in frames and on a Saturday, I sent Grace down the street for a play date. You know, at age seven, that's when you get to go down to play dates. And I took the photos of Mike's husband off the wall, put them in a box and put new photos up and put the box away. And about an hour later, she came home. And hear this little voice from the hallway say, hey, Mommy. And I said, what's that, Grace? She said the world has changed. And I said, well, what's changed? She said, there are more pictures of me up there. It looks great. And she ran up to her room. And I took a deep breath. Because that could have gone a very different way. And I thought, first of all, I thought that hallway was wallpaper to her. I don't think she ever noticed it, right? Secondly, if I hadn't taken the time to print some new photos and get them framed, and if I'd only just taken the photos of my ex-husband and his family off the wall. And left those little hangers dispersed along that hallway. What Grace would be telling a therapist years from now was, my mom and dad got a divorce. My mom took all the photos of my dad's family off the wall with those little hangers hanging through a pallet. And so again, it's an example of both what our kids notice in these moments. But also how do you, what I call, minimize the gaps in their physical environment as you're going through this transition. How do you make it so that they don't feel like their world is being completely pulled apart? And so if a piece of artwork has to come off the wall. You might not be able to afford to put another piece of artwork there, but maybe put a mirror. Or maybe you rearrange things. So you put a big plant in that spot, you know, whatever it is. But just so that kids don't feel like the home that they were living in has literally just been. Pulled apart and there's gaps everywhere of what life used to look like and used to be like.
Jaime - 00:20:28:
May have to borrow your phrase. I've never used the term minimizing the gaps, but I really like it. And I think it could be helpful when talking to folks about the property they're going to take from the home. I mean, if one parent is going to remain in the marital home with the child, you know, I think it's really important that as much of it for the children stay the same as possible. And you can create a new environment in the new home for the child, but that home will always be the shared home that, you know, the child had with both of the parents. And so, now I can talk about minimizing those gaps for the child. I love that.
Sarah - 00:21:02:
Yes. Yeah, it is. It helps. I think it's an interesting, yeah. I've used it a lot and I do think it resonates when I talk to people about that physical environment piece of it. So I found that to be very, very helpful.
Jaime - 00:21:19:
So overall in your book, you emphasize the importance of putting children first in a divorce, which you absolutely should do. Can you share any other specific strategies or approaches you found effective in prioritizing your child's well-being?
Sarah - 00:21:35:
Yes, you know, the other thing that I think again, in the day-to-day moments of life, is how you show up for your children in those moments, whether it's a sporting event where you're going to cheer them on or a school play or whatever the case, that when you're Kids are in that moment and they score a goal or the play ends. They should be able to look out in the audience or out on the sidelines and see, ideally, both of you on the same, at least on the same side of the field. Ideally, maybe even standing kind of close to each other. Not, you know, next to each other, but You know, parents said either one won't go to the game because the other's there, or you have to stand on different sides of the field because you can't be. All of those are, you know, again, micro moments that your kids pick up on. And just like, oh, well, mom's over there and dad's over there. You know, it just, it's... Again, think of what your child is experiencing versus you have to kind of put aside your own emotions, again, as I mentioned earlier. And think about what they're experiencing. And another example that really stuck with me on our journey was when Grace was in sixth grade, we went to her parent-teacher conference. And at her school at that stage, the children go with the parents to the parent-teacher conference. My ex-husband and I go with Grace. We go into this office with her teacher, sit down for an hour, talk about how Grace is doing in school. At the end of the hour, the teacher looks at us and goes, wait a minute. Are you two divorced? And I said, oh yeah, we've been divorced for five years. She said, I had no idea. And I looked at her and said, well, it didn't occur to me to come in here and say hi. We're here to talk about how Grace is doing in school. But by the way, we're divorced, just so you know. I said, that wouldn't. She said, you would not believe how rare it is. For two parents that are in a divorce situation, to be able to come into the selfless, and sit down with their child for an hour. And talk about their child's education. It is very, very rare. And she said, and it makes me so sad. And I said, that makes me so sad because what's more important to parents, than how their child is doing in school. And the fact that you can't go and sit there for that hour together with your child and hear that. By the way, Grace is here in this whole conversation. But that's another example of these moments in a child's life where, you know, if you don't do that, if you decide you both can't go, but you both want to hear how they're doing. Then the child has to go to parent-teacher conferences. Than the teacher, by the way, has to do to parent-teacher conferences. And, you know, it's this kind of multiplier effect of complexity that doesn't necessarily have to be there if you can. Take the high road, sit there for the hour, listen attentively, ask the question, show the support of your child that they deserve. Then you walk out. You may not say another word to each other as you walk out that door, that's fine, but be there for your child in those moments. So these are, again, throughout a child's life, birthdays, you know, are you both there when they blow out their candles, you know, at their birthday party. Any of the special kind of traditions that as a family you did before, if parts of those you can continue as a family afterwards that involved your child, I just think it's healthier for them to have both the parents there and involved and present and supportive.
Jaime - 00:24:49:
Yeah, I agree with you. I think the biggest caveat is for two people who cannot hold it together in the same room, that those folks should potentially think about doing separate events just because we certainly don't want the child witnessing the parents arguing or, you know, not getting along.
Sarah - 00:25:08:
Absolutely. Yeah. If you can't be neutral. If you can't be neutral or positive, then yes, then don't put your child in that situation of ruining that moment for them because you two can't take the high road. But this is where I really want to push people to think about. Again, you decided to no longer be married to that person. And all the reasons are valid of why you've made that decision, I'm sure. And you don't choose to spend a lot of time with them.
Jaime - 00:25:35:
And if you need to practice being in the same room with your ex-spouse, the time to do it is when, you know, the child is younger. Because whether you like it or not, you're both going to be this child's co-parents forever. And you're going to be attending graduations and weddings and births of grandbabies. And, you know, it's going to be a lot harder to be together in those situations if you've not been practicing all along the way.
Sarah - 00:25:58:
Absolutely. I totally agree with you, Jaime. It's basically a muscle. You know, it's a muscle you have to learn to flex. And, you know, and I think that it's interesting because the reason I feel so passionate about this is I did see, I mean, if you were to talk to Grace about her childhood, I don't think the first thing she'd say is, well, my parents were divorced. Like it wasn't, I mean, yes, it was an aspect of her childhood. But, you know, in about sixth or seventh grade, she had some other friends that were going through divorce. And she and I would talk at dinner and she'd be watching some dynamics in her friend's family. She said, mom, it doesn't have to be that way. It really doesn't. And I said, well, I said, your dad and I really made very conscious choices of how we were going to engage with you, co-parent, you know, co-parent together to raise you, I said, and that is something that we were really conscious of. And so she could see, you know, the difference in the approaches and was just like, gosh, I wish others would do it that way. I said, well, again, we've taken a specific path, Grace. Not everyone's going to do that. But it was an interesting reflection from her at that stage where she could really see the difference.
Jaime - 00:27:05:
And it must feel so good to you now that she's an adult that she really recognized all of those things now that you guys did for her.
Sarah - 00:27:14:
Yeah, no, we have a very open dialogue. And in fairness, she was 12 when I wrote this book. And I actually gave it to her and said, Grace, please read this. And because I talk about you throughout the book, I said, I want to make sure you're comfortable with what I'm sharing about how we've approached all this. And I gave her a pen. I said, you can mark it up. And so she read it and she came back. She said, Mama, I think this is going to really help a lot of families. And I said, well, that's the goal. That is the whole goal is to help families that are going through what is a very tough time in life, but hopefully we can help them think about some ways to approach it.
Jaime - 00:27:48:
You also talk about dispelling the myth of the miserable divorcee as a key aspect of your advocacy for good divorce. How did you personally navigate societal expectations and stereotypes to showcase success and happiness post-divorce?
Sarah - 00:28:04:
It's a great question. Well, I do joke that, as I mentioned earlier, that somehow I became this poster child for a good divorce. And I had someone recently tell me, Jaime, that I make divorce look too good. And I was like, oh, gosh. I said, you know, I'm really just trying to be happy. You know, and that's, I think, one of the things that, when you make the decision to go through this major life change, the goal should be at the end of it, you're happier than you were before.
Jaime - 00:28:33:
Right.
Sarah - 00:28:34:
Right. Otherwise, why are you doing this? And so that is one of the things that's very perplexing to me is that if you're going to go through this and then still have a mental mindset or still be negative and miserable. You haven't really changed it. I mean, you just changed your marital status. You haven't actually changed your ability. So I do think it first comes to, again, as I mentioned earlier, the mindset of which you approach things in. I'm always focused on looking forward versus looking back. You know, I don't like rehashing the past is not going to really benefit anyone. So I'm really more of a forward. Facing individual in terms of what lies ahead. And, you know, the kind of bitter divorce, I think, I know that that is definitely one way of approaching it. And you can... Every time the divorce comes up, you can lament it and talk about it and rehash things or you can say yeah that happened It was unfortunate. And then talk about the future. Talk about things. So that's a choice. And that is something that I guess I just try to model in my own life and, you know, just show that you can go through this really significant life change. And still have a very positive, healthy life that even though you're divorced. And one of the funny moments I have, when I go to the, and I just had this happen recently, you know, I went to the dentist and you fill out the forms. And it asks for your status and it has divorced as one of the options that I'm thinking as I'm checking the box. Why does it matter? If I'm divorced, you're cleaning my teeth. Like, why do I have to tell you? I'm like, why do I need to tell you my status? Like, okay. I mean, if I was going to a therapist, maybe you need to know that. So I think the hard part a little bit too is how society wants to continue to reinforce to you. That you're divorced. That that somehow going to labeling in a way. And I talked earlier about the scholar letter. I mean, there are There's a lot of kind of reinforcing mechanisms within society. That you've gone through this change and you need to carry that label with you. And so I am divorced, it happened, but I don't think it's a defining factor of my life.
Jaime - 00:30:50:
Right. It's almost like at what point then would you go from divorce to just single? Like, do you have to put in five good years as being divorced before you can say you're single? Like, at what point?
Sarah - 00:30:59:
It's so true. It's so true. So it is, and that's the thing. I mean, yeah. It's a great point. Yeah. So I think that's, so it's an example of these moments. And I think that negative, bitter divorcee piece is one I'd. I'd love for women to really reflect on. And it's not that I'm saying that there's not high emotion and that it's hard. And I went through all of that. But how you approach it and the steps you take after the divorce to get to a lot more positive places, why you did it in the first place. So I try to make sure people keep that in mind as they go down the path.
Jaime - 00:31:35:
So another piece of information that I thought was really interesting that you shared in your book was that you may want to share limited information about your divorce with other people. How did you decide what to share and with whom?
Sarah - 00:31:52:
Yeah, it's a great question. Divorce can be the thing everyone wants to talk about, whether it's in your friend group, whether it's amongst your work colleagues and things. I just think you have to choose who you want to bring into that circle of, you know, both the reasons for the divorce and, you know, what you're needing in this era of support. And so I just think decide who's that support network. And I talk in my book about building your support network. And that can be family. It can be friends. It can definitely, I'm a big believer in therapy. But think about who that support network is. And then, you know, just keep it to the size that then doesn't become overwhelming for you to manage. Because when the more people you tell everything to or that you take through every step of what you're going through, the more people you have to update along this journey as well. And that can be exhausting. And if it's not what you want to talk about every day, if you want to be able to go to work and just go to work and not really talk about the fact that this is happening, that's a choice. If you're like, I need you to know this because I'm going to be distracted in certain moments. That's also important for certain people to know. But, you know, I actually, ironically, in my career as I was going through the birth I had someone I worked very closely with and really respected but I didn't share that I had gone through the divorce and it was about eight or nine months after divorce that something came up in conversation. And she goes, wait a minute, did you get divorced? Oh yeah, yeah, you know, last December this was in August. She said, I had no idea. I said, you know, what I just didn't bring it into our conversation. And I didn't really even apologize for not doing that. I just said, it's just, there was a lot going on and, you know, and she understood. And I think people respect if you aren't wanting to bring them into that inner circle of conversation. Because it is, it's a lot, you know, and you just have to choose who you're sharing it with and how much you're sharing.
Jaime - 00:33:38:
Well, and from a legal standpoint, one of the things I try to counsel my clients is that, you know, the more you share about your situation with other people, you are potentially making them witnesses in your case, if your case doesn't settle and you find yourself in a courtroom. And so, you really need to be mindful of that. You know, certainly you don't want all of your best friends and neighbors having to come into the courtroom if they don't want to. So just being really mindful about controlling that flow of information. And like you said, share it with your therapist. You know, if you need somebody to talk to, absolutely share it with your therapist.
Sarah - 00:34:14:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I just think it's just being conscious of also what you're putting on that individual to know or have to keep to themselves as well is sometimes a big yes. So-
Jaime - 00:34:27:
Well, and it's just like those relationships, too, where, you know, if you say all of these negative things about your spouse and then let's say you get back together and your spouse is then showing up at all those family events. I mean, that's going to be a little awkward. So to the extent you can keep some of those things to yourself, it's probably best.
Sarah - 00:34:43:
Yes. Yes. Agreed. Agreed.
Jaime - 00:34:47:
So media portrayal of divorces often focuses on the negative aspects, contributing to that myth that all divorces are ugly. You know, we think about the War of the Roses. In your experience, how can individuals challenge and change that narrative?
Sarah - 00:35:04:
You know, I think it takes one divorce at a time to do that. And as individuals in a divorce, you have to step back and think, what do I want to do in this process to approach it in a way where I can come out, as I mentioned earlier as healthy, happy, and positive as possible? What can I do for my children? In fairness, what do you want for your ex-spouse? Again, you may have zero interest in worrying about that, but at the end of the day, if everyone in the process can go off in their respective paths of life, be in a better place, that's the goal. So I think really starting with having a vision of where you want to go with this. And realizing that society is going to potentially want it to be more dramatic and is expecting the drama, is expecting the negativity. So if you feed that, everyone will happily take it. But if you don't and you say that's not how we're approaching it, and I'll give you an example that I said to my friends, look. I don't want you to have to choose sides. You know, my ex-husband and I had a lot of the same friends. We've been together for a long time. And putting that out there, like, please don't feel like you have to choose sides or staying connected with friends on either side, you know, those are choices, but basically being overt and saying that, is one example. And I think how you choose to, as I mentioned, show-up as a couple for those moments with your kids is another example of the spelling the myth of the war. And I just had so many people of you say, it's so amazing how you two have approached this. And I would thank them for recognizing that we were really trying to make an effort to do that. I still, it just always was perplexing me that we were so rare. And that that was such a rare thing. And that when it, but it was constantly reinforced to me how rare we were. And that part, it's really had me focus on, you know, eventually writing this book. And I think even though I love the book and all that it shares, I think having society wrap their heads around the concept of good divorce is what I'm now really focused on. Because I think if we could trigger different mindsets across the country and around the world, that this is how we should be approaching this, I think we would have such a positive impact on so many families that are going through this and so many children that are growing up with this. And so that's really why I've become such a proponent for the concept of a good divorce.
Jaime - 00:37:39:
Yeah, I mean, divorce is just such an emotional process. And you are dealing with folks who are at probably one of their lowest points, and you're trying to help them with their two most important things, their children and their finances. And I think it's really hard sometimes for folks to put those emotions in a box, compartmentalize them like you mentioned earlier, and really make the financial part of it, it really just needs to be a business decision, right? You just need to be able to take care of yourself enough that you're able to make a good decision for you and your family moving forward.
Sarah - 00:38:16:
Yeah, and Jaime, that's a really important point and one that I talk about in the book because your emotions are running so high as you're going through the divorce process. There are going to be times when you're making those decisions or you're being asked to make those decisions where you need to say, am I in the right state of mind to make this decision right now? Or should I set it aside for a moment, let the emotion pass and then come back to that decision? Because many of the decisions that you make, both for yourself, for your children when it comes to the parenting plan that you're going put together. Or for how you're going to, as you mentioned, the financial. Um, decisions that need to be made. Those all have emotion built into them. And really just making sure you can approach it with the most. Objective. Business-minded emotion when it comes to the financial piece and then objective and really best interest of your children, you know, view when it's about your kids and keeping that in focus in those moments is really important. And if you don't think you're in the right. Place to make those decisions, then it's good to just pause and say, you know what, I'm going to come back to this one. Now, I will also say... Also try to manage the timeframe of some of these things because it can draw out much longer than maybe you would want to. If you can't also move things along. You know, and I'm sure you see that from the role that you play. It's like if people, I mean, it can take much longer to get a divorce if you don't kind of try to... Make decisions in at least a time enough manner where you can make forward progress in the process. And so I think there's a fine balance there on that aspect as well.
Jaime - 00:39:53:
Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that's where your support team, your therapist, your lawyer, your financial advisor, your divorce coach, whoever you have on your team, that's where they can really step in to help.
Sarah - 00:40:04:
Absolutely. Totally agree. And I don't feel like you... Here. It can feel very lonely to go through this, but there is support. That you can lean on. And I encourage everyone to find and define that right support network early on in the process. Because they will help you through this and even though it's your your first time going through this and it's so hard, there are, there are people that can help
Jaime - 00:40:30:
Yeah, absolutely. Looking back on your own journey, what is the most valuable lesson you've learned about creating a good divorce?
Sarah - 00:40:41:
You know, I think that... The first year after a divorce, I think, set the tone for a lot of things. And I talk about the year of firsts in my book. And I think that's one of the biggest learnings for me. Was going through that year first and deciding How we approach certain moments, whether it was Grace's birthday or it was you know, the various school events or holidays. Going through that moment and reflecting on, did I like how that felt? Did it seem to work well for Grace? Like all it can really just kind of... Reflecting on it and then deciding, okay, I'll do it again. That way next year. Versus there were some, and I'll use holidays as an example, where The first time I didn't have grace for the holidays, it was... Unbelievably hard. And I thought, I'm never doing it this way again. You know, this is, this doesn't work for me. So I think being very conscious that first year, first year, it is a year first, and you're only going to have one year first, you know, so be so know that you'll get through it. But for me, it was a very, it really set the tone. For my self reflection on how I wanted to manage certain dynamics in our life and in Grace's life, and then improve upon it if something didn't go either as planned or as I would want it to for the long term. And so I would tweak that or make a change. And then over the course of time, you know, over the years, Um, that way of living and, you know, kind of the new normal, as I say in airplanes, is where we landed. And that allowed us to set, you know, that path of heading towards a more positive. Way of living for us as a newly defined family structure.
Jaime - 00:42:20:
Yeah, I like that. You know, it's good to point out that at least in North Carolina, custody is not set in stone and it can be changed at any point until your child turns 18. And so If you try a certain holiday schedule your first year and it really doesn't work out and you'd really rather share the day than alternate it, that's something that you can correct and fix it for moving on.
Sarah - 00:42:41:
Yes. Yeah. And I think that's important. I mean, we had a parenting plan. We'd actually gone through a collaborative divorce process and we had a parenting plan. One of the things that can seem daunting is to have to think so far out, like for the next 11 years, what is this going to look like and make those decisions. But what we did, and I feel good, you know, I think we did a good job of trying to be as thoughtful as possible early on. But there are little tweaks that you do make along the way. And I felt that the parenting plan gave us a structure and something to point to and refer to and then say, OK, is this still working? It is, yeah, by the way, your kids' needs do change. Over the course of time. And if you get divorced when they're young, what makes sense for them at that stage versus potentially down the road can shift. And they start to rightfully so have more of a say, what
Jaime - 00:43:31:
they
Sarah - 00:43:32:
might want their life to look like. And so that ability to take that input in at the right point and hear what they're thinking and wanting to do as well as is important.
Jaime - 00:43:42:
Yeah, we say that they vote with their feet, especially teenagers. And once they're driving, they're going to drive to whatever house they want to be at that day.
Sarah - 00:43:49:
That's right. That's right. And I completely agree. And so I think setting up an understanding of that, that's. You know, their choice at that point, because they are at a stage where they can start making those decisions, is important to understand.
Jaime - 00:44:04:
If you could give one piece of advice to individuals currently going through a divorce, what would that be?
Sarah - 00:44:11:
To really... Step back and think about your day-to-day actions and the impact it's having. And your children. And try to Take the steps to put the most. Positive environment around
Jaime - 00:44:26:
them.
Sarah - 00:44:28:
In this process or You know, even though It's a really hard and challenging process to go through. Figure out how to do that to the best of your ability, even though that's easy. Because that will help you Put yourself on a path with your children. To get through this. With the least collateral damage in their life as possible. So it really comes back to that mindset. And trying to focus on the positive long-term, even though right now everything feels so negative and challenging. And I know what I'm saying sounds really hard. But I think that's the piece that if you can just... Pause for a minute and think about where you want to take things over the course of time. It can put you on a different path
Jaime - 00:45:05:
than...
Sarah - 00:45:06:
Staying so focused on the negative.
Jaime - 00:45:09:
That's great advice. I mean, when you're in the moment, you know, just ask yourself the question, am I not agreeing to this because... I don't like this or I don't think it's best for my child. And if the answer is just it's something that you don't particularly like, maybe you should reevaluate your decision.
Sarah - 00:45:25:
I Thousand percent. I agree, Jaime. And I think those are the moments. And just, just press pause for a moment and ask yourself that question. And then you may say, no, I still, I still put it that way. But at least, at least you, at least you've paused. And I do think. Because those are the moments when... You are potentially trying to either push buttons of the other individual or not give that other individual something you know that they want. But if In the middle of that, your child is sitting in the middle of that and what's best for them. Is it where you're leaning? You really have to stop and pause and say, has that really been the best decision?
Jaime - 00:46:01:
Right. Remember, this is not a game and your child didn't choose this.
Sarah - 00:46:06:
And they're not a pawn. They're your child. And they deserve to live. The happiest of us. Life possible. Even though they're a child of divorce.
Jaime - 00:46:19:
Well, Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today.
Sarah - 00:46:21:
Thank you so much for having me, Jaime. I so appreciate it. And I hope that's what we discussed can And register and potentially resonate with with your listeners, because I do think even though it takes a lot of effort. That having and approaching things in a certain way, you can achieve a good divorce and it's an attainable outcome.
Jaime - 00:46:43:
Yes, a good divorce is possible.
Sarah - 00:46:45:
Yes, it is.
Jaime - 00:46:52:
Well, thank you again, Sarah, for joining us. And thank you for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss the next one. While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is specific to the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions, before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state. If you are in need of assistance in North Carolina, you can contact us at Gailor Hunt by visiting divorcestuff.com. I'm Jaime Davis, and I'll talk with you next time on A Year and a Day.