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The Faculty Chronicles (TFC) podcast, sponsored by the Touro Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning (CETL), is about building community, connection, and conversation. It will bring to life the stories behind the great works of Touro faculty, across disciplines in all our schools, focusing on classroom innovation in teaching and learning, science, business, medicine, education, wellness and more.
00:00:00:09 - 00:00:13:14
Gena
Welcome, Dr. SHAPIRO, to the Faculty Chronicles. And congratulations on your new book, Interpreting COVID 19 through Turbulence Theory, Perspectives and Cases from Early Childhood and Special Education.
00:00:14:12 - 00:00:15:02
Susan
Thank you.
00:00:15:14 - 00:00:55:20
Gena
So Susan SHAPIRO, an associate professor of early childhood and special education at Touro Graduate School of Education, is the co-director of the Democratic Ethical Educational Leadership Community Network. Dr. SHAPIRO received her doctorate from the Steinhart School at New York University in Educational Leadership, and she has led early childhood programs and inclusion programs for the past 25 years. She has also been an advocate for early childhood education policy and has authored articles on crisis, ethical leadership and compassion.
00:00:56:01 - 00:01:28:01
Gena
Welcome, Dr. SHAPIRO, and we appreciate you spending time with us today. And we really are looking forward to learning how during the upheaval of COVID 19, you and your students transform your Zoom classroom into a private and engaging teaching and learning experience. So my first question for you is a little bit of a selfish question, but we were interviewing for the podcast, and that is where I learned that both of us have a background in the performing arts.
00:01:28:23 - 00:01:33:03
Gena
What are some aspects of your training in theater that.
00:01:33:03 - 00:01:33:20
Susan
You.
00:01:33:21 - 00:01:38:15
Gena
Use in your classroom today, and particularly during COVID?
00:01:39:24 - 00:02:10:04
Susan
When you think about pedagogy in order to get students excited about what's going on in the classroom. You have to be engaging. It's really important. And I find my mother always says that no education goes to waste. So I went to performing Arts High School and I went to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. And when I stopped doing that and I went into education, almost seemed like a natural segway, because when you're in front of a group of students, you want them to be engaged.
00:02:10:10 - 00:02:29:03
Susan
You want them to hear your excitement and you want it to be something where they're not just passively sitting by. And you can do that with your voice and you can do that with being animated when you talk with them. It's especially important when you're on Zoom. When you're on Zoom, I don't know if you know this, but when everyone leaves, we tend to wave.
00:02:29:23 - 00:02:48:01
Susan
This is a natural phenomenon where we're trying to engage with each other. And so it's important for you to be dynamic in front of the camera and comfortable, because a lot of times when the camera goes on, people get really nervous and they can see themselves and it's uncomfortable. So having that experience in acting I think is extremely helpful.
00:02:48:19 - 00:03:14:03
Gena
Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is it is as if you're modeling really the kind of behavior that you know is acceptable to be yourself and to not be too uptight, but to be able to see each other as a community. So for listeners who may not be familiar with the turbulence theory, which is what you talk about in your book, could you put that into context for us?
00:03:14:21 - 00:03:36:06
Susan
Sure. I am an extremely nervous flier. And Dr. GROSS, who came up with the turbulence theory in applying it to education, was also he's also a very nervous flier. And he was flying one day and he hit some really bad turbulence. And he started to think about how this is just like a school. A plane is like a school.
00:03:36:16 - 00:04:03:18
Susan
So when you're flying with this organization, sometimes it's got light, wonderful air and you're flying along. Everyone is having watching movies, having a nice time. And sometimes the whole organization is tossed around and they're clinging on to their seats, putting on their seatbelts and that really is what happened to us during the pandemic. It was a time when everyone was just holding on and trying to get through it.
00:04:04:02 - 00:04:26:19
Susan
Now, the last time I took a flight, I was in the back of the plane and I really was nervous and I felt like I was being bounced around. And I walked to the bathroom in the front of the plane and everyone was enjoying their drinks and having a nice time. And I said to the steward as he came by, How come I'm feeling more turbulence in the back than people are in the front?
00:04:27:05 - 00:05:03:00
Susan
And he said, There's a stabilizer in the plane and it's the position ality of where you are on the plane makes it so that the people in the back feel that the stabilizer pushing against the wind, the people in the front don't feel any turbulence whatsoever. Now, that's what happens a lot in schools because as leaders or as teachers, we may feel a high level of turbulence trying to keep that plane on track, keep that school on track, whereas everyone in the front of the plane could be students, could be family members, really feel like it's smooth sailing.
00:05:03:08 - 00:05:10:21
Susan
We fly that experience of the plane thinking about schools, classrooms and higher education.
00:05:11:24 - 00:05:27:01
Gena
Thank you for that description. That is that so clear and vivid? So describe a few of the changes you observed in your students abilities to process information and or even stay engaged during the height of COVID.
00:05:27:15 - 00:05:54:24
Susan
The first time when I logged on to a classroom on Zoom, it happened very quickly and I had my regular class set up. And I look at all of these students sitting in front of the camera and they were terrified. I was terrified. And I thought to myself, This cannot be business as usual. We need to take this opportunity with when we're in the classroom together to really form a community.
00:05:55:21 - 00:06:20:21
Susan
This is a time when we need to talk about the challenges that are going on, to be able to learn from each other. Because a lot of the students were in the classrooms. They had to have that opportunity to talk, to take time and to support each other. And I think that those first early classes on Zoom were incredibly therapeutic and really, really important.
00:06:21:06 - 00:06:23:02
Susan
And it really shows the power of education.
00:06:23:10 - 00:06:44:09
Gena
Yes, I agree. I agree that those first few moments that you spend with the students asking them how they are, etc., were so crucial. And I do agree that they were very frightened, as were the faculty. Everybody was kind of in there together, just trying to figure it all out. How did you build trust in your classroom under those circumstances?
00:06:45:03 - 00:07:04:05
Susan
Well, there are a couple of different ways. And one of the ways I still use when it comes to synchronous Zoom classes. So one of the ways is I begin every class with a talk about one success or one challenge, and I make sure that the candidates know that the reason we do this is because we build community and we're learning from each other.
00:07:04:16 - 00:07:25:07
Susan
And I also make sure that we're in breakout rooms. We get a little extra time so that students have the time to talk to each other and form these communities. Now, in asynchronous class, what we did was I had discussion boards and at first these discussion boards were even during the pandemic, the first discussion board was about vocabulary.
00:07:25:07 - 00:07:47:11
Susan
Talk about how you use vocabulary in the classroom. And we were going through so much turbulence at the time. I thought, this is not appropriate. We threw I threw out the vocabulary and instead I said, let's talk about some of the challenges that you're going through right now as a student and as a teacher or just a family member, just someone who's going through this.
00:07:47:22 - 00:07:57:13
Susan
And the students all began to talk to each other when they were on these discussion boards. And that's really the inspiration for the book were these early conversations during the pandemic.
00:07:58:00 - 00:08:20:11
Gena
I like your one success, one challenge theory. That's really important. What was the aha moment that sparked your interest in capturing the student? COVID experiences? I mean, was there a particular conversation like you were just describing a moment ago or a pattern of re-occurring student incidences that gave you the idea to write the book?
00:08:20:22 - 00:08:46:24
Susan
It was really those early discussion boards. They were unbelievably moving. The challenges that some of these students were facing was just overwhelming. And I realized when I started to read these descriptions that this was a really historic moment in time and that we needed to learn and talk about what was going on in the field and what was going on in people's lives because there's always crisis.
00:08:47:00 - 00:09:13:10
Susan
I began my dissertation work during 911. I think it was the second week of classes I was in NYU and we were close to the World Trade Center and we saw the towers fall. And so that really influenced a lot of work that was going on. Life is crisis, unfortunately. And if we don't take time to reflect and learn from praxis and reflection, then we're really missing out on getting information that can help us through the next one.
00:09:14:04 - 00:09:43:03
Gena
Right. Reflection is is important. And I don't know that people do take the time to do that. Always thinking about, you know, what did you learn and how is this going to be helpful going forward and looking at things, you know, objectively from the outside as an instructor, as someone teaching. Let me ask you why you turned these into case studies as opposed to just making this book a narrative, a narrative of the turbulence that the students experience during COVID 19?
00:09:44:10 - 00:10:18:24
Susan
I think it's not just about marking the time in history. It's about using these cases as discussion points on how we'll handle future crisis. So although these cases are particular to the pandemic, what people were experiencing in terms of inequality of why fly, talking about not having resources, about issues with poverty, issues with parental communication, issues with their own communication and their own feelings of safety.
00:10:19:06 - 00:10:40:11
Susan
These were issues that we want to have students explore so that the first time that they encounter this, it's done in a safe way where they can talk to each other in a classroom, have ideas, bounce thoughts off of each other, as opposed to being in the field and being alone in your classroom and thinking, Oh my gosh, I have to deal with this.
00:10:40:11 - 00:10:55:04
Susan
What am I going to do now? School is about higher education is a place where you can make mistakes and you can learn from a community. And hopefully by having these cases and these talking points that follow the cases, students will have the ability to do that.
00:10:56:03 - 00:11:24:20
Gena
That's phenomenal. And I agree. I think just having that kind of support, knowing that other people are in the same box as you are going through similar situations, and then those case studies, just to use as a point of reference, very important. How much of students lack of engagement and struggled through the turbulence was due to like learning zoom and canvas and the platform technology.
00:11:25:15 - 00:11:49:06
Susan
Well, what's wonderful about the GSC is we have a really varied student body, so we have some people, some lots of young people who are used to using technology. It's something that they've always done. Now, you know, in the break time they'll be on TikTok or they'll they'll be on Instagram, you know, and then you've got people who have been in the field for a long time, are coming back to get additional degrees.
00:11:49:20 - 00:12:24:03
Susan
They're really struggle with technology. It's difficult for them. So we need to make time to allow people to make mistakes with technology and to not feel like everything's on the line with it. In my classes where I do use, I use video discussion boards to help students feel that they're engaged with each other. Every semester they'll be students who are really struggling with those discussion boards and how to use technology to get themselves on there, and that that was what was happening during the pandemic.
00:12:24:03 - 00:12:44:19
Susan
But it had to happen very, very quickly. We had lots of students who I think really struggled, and we still have students who really struggle. But that really has to be something that when we work with students, we think about the fact that technology has to be part of what we're teaching because we can see how important it is, how critical it is.
00:12:45:03 - 00:13:02:02
Gena
Oh, you're absolutely right. We can't go forward without it anymore. It's just built and baked into the cake, as they say. Yeah. So what are some of the lessons, Dr. SHAPIRO, that you learned from your students at doing this collaboration and writing these case studies?
00:13:03:11 - 00:13:31:24
Susan
Well, I think I don't know that I learned it as much as it really drove the point home that we have amazing students. They are they come with huge experiences, wonderful ideas. And when they have the chance to collaborate on something, they approach it with excitement and enthusiasm and a great deal of thought and reflection. And I was so happy that I formed these partnerships with these students because I still hear from them.
00:13:31:24 - 00:13:51:08
Susan
We still talk. It makes them feel that their stories are valuable and it makes me realize how important that community is. So it's not just me standing up in front of a classroom of students. It's about us communicating and learning from each other and sharing experiences.
00:13:52:14 - 00:13:58:06
Gena
So how has writing the book changed or improved your teaching practice in the classroom?
00:13:59:01 - 00:14:31:12
Susan
I think that I look at it with a new sense of importance. When I give out activities, for them to do that has a little bit more wiggle room where they can really express what's going on in their lives. I think that they come back with just things that are just wonderful. I also think that I now approach students with a level of compassion that I didn't necessarily have before, because as an instructor, you hear a lot of the time some really amazing excuses on why things aren't in on time, right?
00:14:31:21 - 00:14:58:24
Susan
But reading these stories, people are going through amazing experiences. And a lot of times that's why things aren't in on time. It's really giving people the benefit of the doubt, putting yourself in their shoes, not having to be the judge in the jury for everything that people are going through and trusting that your students are there because they want to be there and that they really want to do the work.
00:14:59:13 - 00:15:05:05
Susan
But sometimes life gets in the way. So keeping that communication open is critical and important.
00:15:06:03 - 00:15:29:09
Gena
I agree. And I also think that we've learned how to listen differently as instructors. We've learned how to well, I guess it's more like deep listening and empathy, if you will, because you're right, they are going through a lot of changes in their lives and they're dealing with families and COVID and learning to navigate waters that are new to all of us that were new.
00:15:29:09 - 00:15:48:00
Gena
And then we're just sort of floating out of. So, Dr. SHAPIRO, I have a final question for you. And it is, so what are your hopes for helping students who fell behind or in COVID kind of regain their footing and complete their goals in elementary education?
00:15:49:08 - 00:16:14:13
Susan
It's always a little bit of a toss up pull because you want to make sure that your students are going to be able to do what they need to do when they get into the field. We're not really just teaching people how to put a cup together, although that's important. We're teaching them something where if they don't have all of those critical skills, the students in their classroom will suffer.
00:16:14:16 - 00:16:40:19
Susan
So we have to make sure that there's a really important balance going on where the students are supported. But they're also able to support the students that they teach. It's taught me I really need to take the time to work with students to be able to be more compassionate, to be able to, as I said, take the time to listen to really what's going on in their lives so that they can be successful.
00:16:41:11 - 00:16:51:06
Susan
And sometimes that means being more flexible than I would have been in the past. And sometimes that means having to to draw the line. So it's definitely taught me a lot.
00:16:52:04 - 00:17:14:02
Gena
Wow. Well, thank you so much. You've taught me a lot. And we appreciate the time that you've spent with us. And the listeners on The Faculty Chronicles. You've given us terrific food for thought, and I hope you'll return with updates to your innovative work. You are producing in your classroom room for the Department of Graduate Education and Tural University.
00:17:14:18 - 00:17:17:06
Gena
You are terrific. Thank you so much for being.