Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Conversations on Reforestation, Silviculture, Tree Genetics, Planting, Planning and More! Join us as we go deep with forestry experts and explore the art and science of trees.
Paul Jeffreys (00:05)
Hello and welcome everybody to episode 13 of the TreeLines podcast, ArborGen TreeLines podcast. Lucky number 13, Jason. We have come a long way from number one and we've gotten to number 13 and you're our guest today for this great episode. today we're going to be talking about planting fewer trees and to grow more value.
Jason Watson (00:17)
You
Paul Jeffreys (00:31)
Less can be more. We came out with a webinar a while back that was titled, Less Can Be More. But, you know, we're going to talk about why MCP is changing the saw timber strategy today. And not to jump into it too quick, but not, but not to drag around either. I want to get into this because it's a very great topic, but to introduce my guest today.
my fearless colleague and one of my closest friends, Jason Watson, and a classmate at Mississippi State University College of Forest Resources. so today is an all MSU episode, but, ⁓ today we're going to be speaking with you, Jason, about something that is, it's a very hot topic in forestry right now because
I know when I give presentations and I do public speaking events, like I did, I did two last week, you know, this topic always comes up
What keyed this or what started this whole discussion or the reason why you were on this episode today talking about this was you wrote an article, a post on Facebook and you've written articles, wrote an article for TreeLines about it and we had a post on Facebook that generated a lot of discussion.
Uh, and we, you know, we, we, that's, that's what we strive for is for people to have discussion about it. But again, uh, Jason Watson, I'd like to, you know, get your input on this today, but beginning to start off, maybe if you want to do a little introduction, I think you're, know, you're a seasoned veteran right now, but for somebody who has not listened to episodes 1 through 12.
I encourage them to go back and listen to those episodes, but they would have seen you on some of those. You want to give us a little background and then we can jump into this hot topic.
Jason Watson (02:27)
Yeah, well, ⁓ you know, first of all, thanks for having me again, Paul. I guess I feel honored to have gotten another invitation to come back and join you. ⁓ And, you know, I guess that says something, counts for something. But no, seriously, it's really great to be back. yeah, so I think, because I do think I hold the distinction, yes, of being on the first podcast with you, where...
Paul Jeffreys (02:38)
Yeah
Jason Watson (02:55)
We got the inaugural, I guess you could say sort of issue or episode. So yeah, I'm originally from Meridian, Mississippi. I attended Mississippi State University where I got my bachelor's, bachelor of science in forestry in 1996. Later, worked for a while in the industry, had the bright idea.
And it really was a good decision, but I don't know if I'd recommend it to anybody in their 40s, but went back to graduate school to dear old state again and did a master of science degree with an emphasis in genetics and silviculture. And I've been with ArborGen actually since 2012 and now serve as the US sales director.
live in South Carolina where our headquarters are. just to always tell people it's kind of like a new adventure every day. We're certainly a big part too of the dynamic timber market. So we play a piece in that. it's been a very fun industry to be a part of and it gets more interesting, I think, every day. And just glad to be here again. Thanks, Paul. Look forward to this conversation.
Paul Jeffreys (04:06)
Well, thank you for coming on again today. you you've been, you said you had been with ArborGen for how many years now?
Jason Watson (04:13)
Let's see, this year will make 14 years that I've been at ArborGen. Yeah, almost half my career.
Paul Jeffreys (04:20)
And so you were, yeah, you
will always be older than I am, Jason. So the, uh, you were, you, you graduated from state in 96. I graduated in 98 and, uh, you've been with the company for 14 years going on 14. I'm going on 12. So, you know, it's kind of like you're paving the way and, I'm just following along behind. And, but I think you and I both listening to both of us talk.
When we get into talking about forest genetics and we get into talking about reforestation and the environment in general, one thing I think that I've had people tell me that have listened to you is that Jason Watson is very passionate about seedlings, genetics, and he's very passionate about forestry. And I think that is something that you and I both share.
is, you know, we both grew up, I grew up, you know, in Detroit, Alabama on family farm. You grew up in ⁓ Meridian Collins, Mississippi, Meridian, Mississippi area, their family farm. You know, we both grew up with that same background of, we're just passionate about it. And that is what
I enjoy about my job so much and I can tell you enjoy your job as well. You know, I'd like to say that that you enjoy your job so much because you get to work with me every day and vice versa. But you know, we do have a passion about what we do. So today I just want to, you know, we want to discuss how shifting timber markets and lower planting densities are changing reforestation strategies.
Jason Watson (05:45)
you
Paul Jeffreys (05:59)
And, you know, and why the higher genetics like MCP are becoming more important than ever. If this is the technique or the tactic that you are going to use. It is incredibly important. If you're going to use this, if this is going to be your management strategy and this is the way you're going to go for it.
And, and, and let's face it, look in, in, in forestry for private landowners, you need a plan. You need a management plan and you need to, that's your roadmap. You know, you and I first learned in forestry school that you need a management plan. We had both right one to get out and that is your roadmap. Well, if this is going to be your plan and this is the road that you're going to take, you got to change.
You got to change some things. you know, your article kind of sparked some discussion. you know, let's first start off by talking about the history. You know, let's talk about the history of planting density. What do you remember? Or what was the history that you learned when we were in school?
Jason Watson (07:08)
Well, yeah, you know, were always, I guess, what is the old saying that the only constant is change. And so we are constantly changing. And I know certainly, I still remember actually the first, I was with, so to give you just a little bit of a background of that to kind of inform where this will go, I actually worked
Paul Jeffreys (07:19)
Yes.
Jason Watson (07:30)
First of all, with a hardwood sawmill, Anderson Tully Company, and I was in the upland hardwood division, Block Four was the name of it, and I worked for Glenn Brown out of Vicksburg. so mostly that was, there was some, we were planting some hardwood seedlings, but a lot of that was natural regen just because the soils are just so adept at growing hardwoods over in that
area, Vicksburg and of course the Mississippi Delta. But we also managed about 10,000 acres of pine and I was, for whatever reason, I was kind of put in quote unquote charge of regenerating some of the stands. And I'll never forget, I think one of our first stands was at the old six by 10 trees per acre, Paul, which you know, 726 trees per acre. And there was
And that was kind of a standard. even remember in Sam Land's Principles of Silviculture class and John Hodges's Practices of Silviculture class talking about 726 trees per acre was a fairly standard recommendation back in those days for a number of reasons. know, by then we were doing much better in terms of like seedling quality, but
You know, this will be kind of interesting to see where this goes, but another reason why, I'll never forget, just kind of a little aside here, but these things are, these things are, these kind of stories or these anecdotes are sometimes kind of useful to, to harken back to. But when I was in my summer, when I was actually in college, doing my undergraduate work at Mississippi State,
I was really fortunate enough to work for Forest Technicians. Craig Hitt, he's in Collinsville, Mississippi still. Scotty Mayat. And of course, my cohort was Shane Mayat. Those guys are all still in the business. I hope at some point they would listen to this and kind of get a kick out of these old stories. But one of the things they would let Shane and I do...
We weren't cruising the big valuable timber sales. They let us go out and do the pre-merch cruises, which built a lot of character from greenbrier scratches on your arms and giving blood out on some of these sites. They were only seven to 10 years old. One of the things I remember is we were doing those pre-merch cruises, those inventories on an eastern, kind of east central Mississippi.
Paul Jeffreys (09:36)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Jason Watson (09:54)
on warehouse and also international paper land at the time. And those were all established, you know, from 600 and maybe 80 trees per acre to 726 trees per acre. And it was just common. You know, you had to enter the stocking rate into the tally sheets or the little handheld computer. Believe it or not, we even had those back then. But those stocking rates were just ubiquitous. I mean, those were the common.
Those were the common stocking rates that were used, know,
Paul Jeffreys (10:22)
Yeah. You know, and there was multiple reasons that we can visit today about why those stocking rates were so high. But, you know, talking about historical numbers, you know, I have even heard of planting densities being more than 726 days of old. They would be 800, 900 plus trees.
Jason Watson (10:39)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (10:51)
per acre that were planted back then. we can all, can, and I want to visit this, we can talk about why they were so high and why there were multiple reasons. you know, getting into reason number one, and it is even discussed in, it's even discussed in Philip C. Wakeley's 1954,
Jason Watson (10:51)
Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (11:18)
publication, you know, Planting the Southern Pines, the old textbook that we still use and everything is mentioned in there. Planting densities back then, because seedling quality was not what it is today. And because we do not have the knowledge back then. Planting densities sometimes was used as an insurance for survival.
Jason Watson (11:33)
Is it?
Certainly, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, I mean, yeah, you think about it. You know, the Southern Forest Nursery Cooperative at Auburn University was formed in 1970, but there was still a lot to learn about seedling quality. And I mean, before that, you talk about Wakeley's, you know, Wakeley's work was just an incredible
I used to laugh, I say this in presentations sometimes, ironically gave a presentation at Auburn not too long ago where I talked about, I don't think Philip Wakeley ever slept to put that book together. But that is one of the things they talk about. You're exactly right. And going back to the 1950s and the 60s, another guy, Victor Byland out in East Texas was talking about just the chronic, you know, the really just ongoing problems of
Seedling survival. There were a lot of peer reviewed papers that were authored talking about seedling quality being an issue. And you just hit the nail on the head. It was an insurance policy. So between really like seedling quality and even going back to the soil conservation service being formed, there's old pictures from kind of like where you're from, up in kind of Northern Alabama, Northern Mississippi, where people were
were doing a lot of excess farming and the topsoil was gone, there were just gullies everywhere. Pretty amazing. So it wasn't really a bad idea at the time to go in and plant those high stocking rates and try to repair a lot of those soil problems. It almost could have become a dust bowl, but over in Mississippi and Alabama.
Paul Jeffreys (13:10)
Well, yeah, I mean, and look, Jason,
let's face it. That was why the first, cost share program CRP was, and I don't want to chase a side street here, but you know, those soil and erosion problems was why the CRP program was first developed, you know, was to help with that. But getting back to the topic at hand, you know,
Jason Watson (13:18)
Mm-hmm.
True, yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (13:35)
It's not uncommon now and, and I don't want to, I don't want to chase this side street, but it's not uncommon now for to hear of, well, you know, survival issues. Has there been a survival issue this year? Everything impacts seedling survival. And we're not going to chase this rabbit, but I just want to say that, you know, I get comments all the time from landowners, foresters, tree planters.
⁓ people in the industry that, know, we used to not have problems with seedling survival. No, yeah, you did. You had problems. There's always been problems with seedling survival. The problem, the thing was though, back in the day, you had seven to eight to 900 trees per acre that you didn't see, but there were reasons for that. And there's reasons why we're going to get on right now into
Jason Watson (14:21)
Ha
Paul Jeffreys (14:28)
why we don't do that anymore or you're seeing a trend to go backwards and that's genetic variability. Let's face it, back in those days when Wakeley and those pioneers, legends in our industry were doing their work, Bruce Zobel, Dr. Zobel, the father of tree improvement, when they were doing their work, when they started in the 1950s,
Jason Watson (14:35)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (14:49)
Jason, was there any genetic improvement at that time?
Jason Watson (14:53)
No, I mean, that's when it was in, you know, Zobel, Bruce Zobel had a hard enough time convincing the industry, the value that could be unlocked from the power of genetics. But no, there wasn't. There certainly was not. So that was another big factor in having to plant. And I think, and I know this is where we're going to go with something with a lot of this too, Paul, today on the podcast is.
You know, there was the survival issue. was one big, one big, you know, thing that was why you planted a lot more seedlings per acre. But the other big, the other big issue was tree quality, you know, genetics or, know, we were just having a discussion about this yesterday within family variation. That's the way the geneticists refer to it. And I can, not to get ahead of ourselves here, but going back to
You know, me getting a start in those summers of 1993 and 94, you know, when I was tallying those 726 trees per acre in the pre-merchantable Lobbolly pine stands for International Paper and Weyerhaeuser. And that doesn't matter who it would have been, by the way. It could have been Georgia Pacific. It could have been Union Camp. I'm not picking on Weyerhaeuser or International Paper whatsoever.
Paul Jeffreys (15:57)
Right.
Jason Watson (16:01)
It was every third or fourth tree and then maybe three trees in a row I was tallying Cranarchum or Frisiform rust or a low fork in the first 16 feet, which is automatically going to qualify that tree or excessive stem sweep is going to keep it in pulpwood for a long time. So people were also planting a lot of those trees because they were going to, you had to count on having at least approximately
50 to 55 % of the sand that was going to be pulpwood. So you needed a lot of trees per acre to ensure you had enough logs even somewhat evenly distributed for the final harvest. And that's another really big, that's just as, that was just as big as an issue in survival, quite frankly.
Paul Jeffreys (16:43)
Right. Right. And you mentioned ⁓ a term there that is going to lead us in, segue us into the next talk about is the pulp and the pulp industry and how that was a major player back in those times and how that is going today. You know, today we see the markets changing. We see the industry changing. We see things, you know, uses of products changing. But back in those days,
When they were planting that many trees per acre, they were going to be able to get rid of that pulpwood. You know, they were going to be able to move that. ⁓ I've talked about it many times. I've talked about it probably on this podcast before. I've talked about it in multiple meetings, but up here where I am, we had a pulp mill that was very close by. remember my grandparents on my family property.
Jason Watson (17:19)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (17:34)
⁓ growing trees, to feed that pulp mill. And in one night that pulp mill was gone. And it has completely changed. my, mean, it's completely changed my fam, my personal and my family's views on how we're going to manage our timber going forward. you know, but what were the markets like when this strategy worked?
I mean, you know, when the strategy of 800 to 900 trees per acre work, what were those markets like? Well, you had a pulp mill on every corner.
Jason Watson (18:01)
Yeah,
we sure did. I mean, it was a very vibrant business, know, the pulp and paper industry. You know, I can think about one of the first connections I made. Because, you know, when you're just kind of getting interested in a discipline like forestry for me, I remember, I think there may still be a wood yard in this particular place.
But if you're on Interstate 20, just before, if you're headed in Meridian, Mississippi, of course, where I said where I'm from, and you're going down Interstate 20 and you're traveling toward Jackson, so you're going west, there was always a big wood yard there. It might still be there in some shape or form today. I think it might still be there. But it was probably even bigger back when the company
Paul Jeffreys (18:42)
It is. It is.
Jason Watson (18:49)
James River and then think it maybe became Fort James was really running strong. And it was very, very big. mean, the whole property was filled up with small diameter wood, but ⁓ that was just kind of a micro chasm of, you you had this, this healthy industry where, you know, landowners are making decisions and can feel really, they could feel really good about making decisions in
Paul Jeffreys (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Watson (19:12)
virtually from East Texas back to Virginia, there was that stratified market of you set up your regime as a private landowner or forest industry to know that you had a home for those small diameter trees. And most people were thinning, look, I mean, we talked today about first, or excuse me, like one thin regimes, but people used to,
It was always at least two thinnings. And sometimes three thinnings, maybe even four. I don't know. Some people wanted to carry them forever. And some people I think can still do that because they have very niche markets they sell to you, but it's few and far between now. But there was, you're exactly right. There was a very, your North Alabama example is perfect because it was a healthy market for all those small diameter trees all over the place.
Paul Jeffreys (19:42)
Yeah.
Jason Watson (20:02)
in the southern United States.
Paul Jeffreys (20:03)
Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, lot of, lot of ⁓ towns, a lot of people thrived or lived off of that pulp wood market. ⁓ You know, even more than just selling wood, but you know, the business, the other businesses that sprung up around those meals, the other businesses that, that depended on those, the communities that depended on that as their, you know, income and then the, the districts I'll, I'll never forget again, not trying to catch.
Jason Watson (20:11)
Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (20:30)
chase the rabbit. But ⁓ the, ⁓ you know, them after that mill closed the school district around that area had completely changed their way they were budgeting for products because that mill provided the school districts around the area with the paper for, you know, and then in one night all of that's gone. You know, so, but exactly.
Jason Watson (20:52)
right. Not to mention the tax base for all the
schools mean, that and all the ancillary businesses like auto parts and supply parts for all the... Yeah, it definitely has a ripple effect. I mean, for certain and then of course, ultimately, like we're talking about today, the impact on the timber management.
Paul Jeffreys (21:13)
Right, right. But we're seeing a change in products that, you know, people back in those times, you know, everybody got a newspaper on at least once a week, delivered on the doorstep. Some got one every day. And then you just, know, with the onset of the digital age and everything, you're just not seeing that anymore. But, you know, it is that the the the pulp market has changed so much over the last decade.
Jason Watson (21:33)
Yeah, that's right.
Paul Jeffreys (21:40)
And anytime you're going to have changes in markets, you're going to have to have changes in the way you're producing the products to feed those markets. overnight, there was a complete change in the need for those small diameter trees that could go into those mills that it didn't matter if they were forked. It didn't matter if they had a fusiform rust gall on them. Did not matter if they had a crooked stem.
those trees were never going to be a saw log or a pole and they were never going to go into a sawmill or a pole mill. I've always made the comment, the statement that you can put a saw log in a pulp mill, but you can't put a pulp log in a sawmill. You can't go backwards with that. But we have seen pulp and paper mill closures now.
I think the one that I was talking about in, in North Alabama was one of the first that we saw, but now it has just kind of like it's the dam has broken loose.
Jason Watson (22:37)
Yeah, and Paul, know, we had a fascinating discussion recently, you and I did with Amanda Lang on a previous episode. Yeah, and so, you know, and of course, Forisk and certainly others have documented this extensively. You know, it's interesting, the catalyst really for
Paul Jeffreys (22:46)
Episode 12.
Jason Watson (22:59)
everything we have today, like the genetics research, the silviculture research, mean, you name it, fertilization. mean, everything we have was really, I mean, the beginning of the genesis of all that was the pulp and paper industry. And then of course, after World War II, the lumber, know, of course, everything was booming and the lumber industry really took off then. but you know, we've rocked along for all these 60 to 70 years and they're the
the aging infrastructure as, you they talk about some of this infrastructure at the mills is, you know, 70, 80 years old. I mean, you know, and it's, and so some of the companies, unfortunately, have chosen not to reinvest in some of these mills. And yeah, I mean, I think, I think a number, and I'm gonna be just, I'm just gonna be, I'm gonna approximate it here, but.
Paul Jeffreys (23:32)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Watson (23:46)
Maybe in the last four to five years, we've lost like 35 million tons in the United States of capacity. Maybe in the Southern U.S. alone, it's like 23 to 25 million, roughly. I mean, when you were talking about North Alabama, I was thinking about places like Perry, Florida, and Georgetown, South Carolina, and Savannah, Georgia, the behemoth international paper facilities that people thought would be there forever.
and we find ourselves in a place where they're not reinvesting in those mills, they decide to shut them down. I think one saving grace is, and we'll talk about this too, we'll kind of give a little disclaimer, is there are some places where thankfully companies like Georgia Pacific and an international paper, Paul, you're
Paul Jeffreys (24:14)
Right.
Jason Watson (24:38)
your home state brethren in southern Alabama have had a little bit of a an injection of new capital, you big time going into southern Alabama. So, you know, everything we're going to talk about today, too, and some of these decisions are micro, they're micro market decisions, because it's all based on where you are geographically, certainly. But we have had a big change, no doubt about it.
Paul Jeffreys (24:59)
Yes,
and I can hear the comments now. Well, my pulp industry is still going strong, or my pulp mill is still here today. And are you saying that I still need to lower my planting density even though my pulp mill is still running strong? I can hear the comments from the listeners now. are the landowners feeling this shift yet?
Jason Watson (25:02)
Ha ha.
Let's try it.
Paul Jeffreys (25:26)
And I would have to say that not in every area, like you said, we've got those micro markets there to where landowners are still, I'm envious. I'm not shy to say it. I'm envious of some people, of people in some areas as anybody would be. I mean, I'm still here, you know, I don't want to discuss prices or anything, but there are still people out there that are getting good, good stumpish prices to the landowner for.
Jason Watson (25:38)
Sure. Yeah.
Paul Jeffreys (25:51)
But are landowners feeling this shift yet in the changes in the markets? And I would have to say yes, that they definitely are across the majority of the region.
Jason Watson (26:00)
Yeah, for sure.
Paul Jeffreys (26:01)
You know,
and that leads us into the questions that that I continue to get is, you know, what does that mean for someone who is planting today? Planting stands, timbered trees today, seedlings today that are going to be harvested 15 to 20 years, 25 years from now. you know, and I can tell you what it means to me. I think I know what it means to you, but what have you seen across the
the market.
Jason Watson (26:26)
Well, how long do we have? I'm kidding.
Paul Jeffreys (26:28)
No, exactly. We may
need to do multiple episodes.
Jason Watson (26:33)
Yeah, yeah. Well, know, gosh, but there are there are so many, there are so many factors. And, you know, if you step back for just a minute, you know, we're, I think what's, you know, we do say that, gosh, the market is more dynamic than it's ever been. And we're probably going to say that again, five years from now, because guess what? We're in global, we're in a global market.
and we have been for some time, but we're certainly in global forest products markets. And I think that that, you you almost kind of have to, even though you live in a micro market, you need to be kind of thinking big picture at the same time. And I think that, and before I kind of put the cart before the horse, I want to mention something to you that kind of that informs,
decisions that we have the ability to make. And I'll kind of clarify why I'm saying the ability to make and how fortunate we are. You mentioned earlier, Paul, because you were talking about Wakeley and Bruce Zobel and all the giants that have come before us that have done such foundational work. And we should reference that. That's something we should look back on. And I know that not long after I started working for
John Pate at Cell 4 and then followed him to ArborGen. He was the first one that exposed me to some of the really good work by University of Georgia's Plantation Management Research Cooperative. And this is a really important point I want to mention. And our good friend, my good friend, Barry Shiver, Dr. Barry Shiver, when he was still on faculty and director of the PMRC,
over in Athens and alongside working with guys like Leon Pinar and Mike Harrison. They did a really wonderful, a forward-thinking study. It was a spacing study, a culture density spacing study, like a region-wide. I don't even remember how many plots they installed, so I'm not going to take a guess and get it wrong. But a very good replicated study. And this is back in the 1980s and
These were being installed in the 1990s when they were analyzing some of the results through mid-rotation age. But there was absolutely zero difference in the volume, merchantable volume through age 14, I believe I'm correct, between 400 trees per acre and 800 trees per acre. And those were foundational results to get because it told us that, you know,
If we're still on and still informs what we do today if we If we want to plant 726 trees per acre, we know we're gonna have a pulp mill in our backyard for the next You know 15 to 20 years We've got the flexibility to do that, but it also may tell us something more important and that is we could drop our trees per acre all the way down to say 500 to 450 and Still know that we're growing the same volume
if we're planting 726 trees per acre that some people that have been around for a long time are still comfortable with. But what it tells you is that you've got a much more marketable tree for a lot of different markets if you plant it at 450 to 500 to 550 trees per acre because it can grow into a chip and saw tree much faster than one planted at a higher density.
And so it just gives you options. And you layer that on with the genetic improvement and the better seedling quality. Landowners can be a lot more confident that where it used to be, if Paul Jeffreys goes out and he plants in Detroit, Alabama, and he plants 600 trees, know, 650 trees per acre, you know,
Instead of having to do that, he can go in and plant 450 to 500 trees per acre. And 70 % of those trees, 70 to 80 % are going to be of saw timber potential before he ever thins it. Whereas his neighbor down the road may be planting over 600 trees per acre of a lower genotype, and he's still stuck with 50 % of that being pulpwood. Well, where is he going to sell it potentially?
Paul Jeffreys (30:40)
Right,
right. And to go back to your point there, discussing Dr. Shiver's article there about planting density, mean, planting density research has been going on since the beginning of forestry. But what they did find in that study was that the stands that were planted, even though they said the same merchantable volume from 400 up to above 800 trees per acre,
Jason Watson (30:50)
Long time, yeah, very long time.
Paul Jeffreys (31:06)
These stands that were planted 800 and above, had zero percent saw timber in those, in those stones. They were, they had no room to grow. They had no room to grow. had hit their carrying capacity. They had no room to grow and to get any bigger. However, in contrast to that, these stands that had 400 trees per acre had more saw timber than any of the other stands.
Jason Watson (31:12)
Yeah, they were too small, even at age 14.
Paul Jeffreys (31:32)
⁓ because those trees were given room to grow. They, they, were not constrained by, nutrients and water availability. They had not exceeded their carrying capacity and everything. And that, that's a whole nother, that's a whole different talking point there. But, ⁓ again, you know, 450 trees per acre, depending on your site, 500. I get the question a lot now, what is the average planting density across the Southeast and what are people going to?
Jason Watson (31:43)
Exactly.
Paul Jeffreys (32:00)
And it's like the age old answer to every forestry question from a forester. Well, it depends. Yes, yes, yes. But I can say with assurance that most people that I'm working with, they are in that 545 to 454 trees per acre range. And that is becoming very common.
Jason Watson (32:08)
10 foresters we'll give you 10 different answers.
Thank
Paul Jeffreys (32:26)
You know, there's a lot of different benefits to going to that. But, and we'll get into this a little bit later on, but do not think that you can go to those planting densities and keep doing the same thing you've been doing year after year and planting the same thing that you can plant. But,
Some of the benefits, let's talk about benefits now to the private landowner, the benefits for going to those planting densities, number one is lowering your establishment cost. ⁓ Obviously, when you're dealing with producing a commodity that's gonna be sold, you've got to consider, take into consideration the cost of the production of that commodity. How much is it gonna cost me?
Jason Watson (32:56)
No.
Paul Jeffreys (33:08)
to produce this and how much am I going to be able to sell it for? Well, everybody wants to, you know, they want to increase that selling price and lower that production price. I mean, that's just simple economics. You know, but you've got a lower establishment cost there that, you know, you're not having to plant or purchase as many trees to plant per acre.
But you need to go up in the genetic that you are planting. So obviously you have enough available or more money to spend per seedling because you are wanting to plant something better. The other benefit, you're giving each individual tree, and let's look at it this way. You're giving each individual organism seedling tree.
You're giving it more room to grow. You're giving it more nutrients that it's going to have to uptake and you're giving it more water. and you're just giving it an overall better situation to grow, to perform to its highest capability. It's like an athlete. You want to give it the most that you can get it to perform.
Jason Watson (34:18)
the best nutrition,
the best access to proliferate.
Paul Jeffreys (34:21)
Exactly, exactly. And there's a term and I learned it at state and my wildlife management courses, but it's also applicable through forestry and agricultural in general. And there's a term called carrying capacity. And when you exceed a carrying capacity is the ability of an area to carry an organism, you know, and how many it can carry. you can talk about it.
Uh, it's been discussed to death, but when you exceed carrying capacity, the organisms that are depending on that, um, um, acreage, that land, that soil, that environment, when you exceed carrying capacity, they start declining in health and the same holds true for timber and forestry. So if you go out there and you put 800 trees per acre.
Jason Watson (35:00)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (35:14)
And at about, you know, five, six, seven, eight years, they're gonna close canopy. They're going to hit that carrying capacity a lot earlier. Each individual stem is gonna have to start depending on less nutrients and less water, available water to survive. The health of each individual stem is gonna start to decline. This growth is gonna slow down.
And there's a beautiful little critter that loves these stands when they get stressed that come in and they move in and they just have a bad reputation for thinning timber stands, but not evenly. And we're talking about the Southern Pine Beetle. You know, and we're not going to chase that. But again, they are attracted to stressed trees and stressed stands of
Jason Watson (35:50)
well deserved.
Paul Jeffreys (36:03)
pine trees and one way to stress a pine is to put its neighbor too close to it and to cause it to struggle to get nutrients and water.
You know, and then we can go into the wildlife aspects, you know, and the benefits of planting and having more understory browse for wildlife on your stands that have fewer stems per acre. And then you can go into, we can sit here and we could discuss that, you know, but.
The point I want to get to is the lower density equals a less tolerance for poor genetics.
Jason Watson (36:39)
Yes, you've got to be more intentional.
Paul Jeffreys (36:42)
Exactly. mean, you're, you know, again, going back to the original purpose of planting so many trees per acre was so that you would have stems out there that would be inevitably quality enough to make it to a mill. and the ones that were not, they were going to the pulp mill that were down the road. So, you know, we have the two types of seedlings. We have open pollinated and mass control pollinated.
Jason Watson (37:01)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Jeffreys (37:05)
You know, that leads us to leaning towards more usage of mass control pollinated seedlings than open pollinated seedlings. Would you agree?
Jason Watson (37:15)
Yes, very much so.
Paul Jeffreys (37:17)
You know, so with open pollinated seedlings, you're looking at 50 to 60 % pulpwood trees. You're looking at more variability between your stems because we only know, we only know the mother, we don't know the father, and you're looking at a possibility of having more stems out there with poor form.
Jason Watson (37:36)
Yeah, I think that, you know, the, if everybody that listens to this podcast could remember one part of the conversation that we talk about here is, you know, dropping your, dropping your trees per acre comes with a really big caveat of all of a sudden your decision basis becomes much, much more.
Like I said, that word a minute ago, intentional or deliberate about genetics. You've got to be thinking about, you know, because on one hand, it's giving us the options all of a sudden. We talked about it just a minute ago, dropping those trees per acre down to 450 to maybe 550 seedlings or less. So maybe 550 down to 450 is certainly going to give the landowner.
a lot more options to grow chip and saw, you know, and saw timber. That's where you want to be. And the, you where we in many of the markets we operate in now. But that is, mean, like I said, I mean, the caveat is you've got to be really connecting, thinking about what are my markets and talk to your local forestry commission people, certainly call us the reforestation advisor team.
And you can get that from ArborGen.com and find your local. There's a shout out for the website and finding your local reforestation advisor or talk to your extension forester, but be informed. Know what your markets are. You're going to drop those trees per acre. You want to go into it with the deliberate nature of higher percentage of those trees qualifying for solid wood products. Chip and saw and saw timber are going to make a two by four. So
Paul Jeffreys (38:58)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Watson (39:12)
you want to de-risk the production of pulpwood, you know, a lot of times, unless you're in one those really fortunate micro markets. The funny thing is, it still doesn't hurt to drop to those densities if you're sitting right next door to a pulp mill, because you're still going to grow more tons per acre. And instead of six and a half tons, seven tons per acre, you may be growing nine or 10 tons per acre with like an MCP. So,
But at least if you're in a place where there's not a pulp mill close by and the markets are not doing well, you've presented yourself a lot more options. It's just got to be with a better genotype. In this case, control pollinated, a control pollinated genotype.
Paul Jeffreys (39:53)
Right. I mean, can you, mean, just elaborate a little bit on, you know, we're running up on time here, but just elaborate a little bit on how we select and validate our MCP genetics, our mass control pollinated genetics.
Jason Watson (40:08)
Yeah, mean, you know, so controlled, my wrist slapped here by Patrick, Dr. Patrick Cumbie our, ⁓ VP of product development. But, I like to say I'm not a geneticist. have coffee with those guys, but I've been around them long enough that, I think I'm somewhat qualified. ⁓ but yeah, I mean, you know, so controlled pollination is really just a breeding technique. So if you see.
If you see like, these control pollinated seedlings are for sale. The number one thing a consumer should ask is are they tested? And, you know, it takes a long time. This is not something that happens in three to five years. And so it takes a while to breed these tests them in a wide geographical footprint to know that when they go out into the marketplace, they've been, they've been verified.
to know that the performance is going to be what it says in the market.
Paul Jeffreys (40:55)
And what are they, what
traits are they looking at? they're, what traits are they looking at?
Jason Watson (40:58)
Well, they're looking for
stack traits. That's the power of controlling the mother and the father is the volume, not only the volume gain, but the straightness of the stem, the reduction in disease, which in a lot of cases in the eastern United States is fusiform rust. Certainly, forking reduction is another crucial, heritable trait. And we're even looking at new things in forest health now like ground spot, need a blight.
resistance. We've got some early testing more to come on that, but there's a huge screening process that goes into the goes into place to make sure we're stacking those traits to create less variability or more uniformity if you want to say it that way in a stand for more.
Paul Jeffreys (41:37)
Right.
And what does a stand look like when you see this? If you're driving down the country road and you see a stand of trees, you and I, I think, have our eyes trained to where we can spot these. Maybe explain it to our listeners what you can see when you see a controlled pollinated tree.
Jason Watson (41:51)
Yeah.
Well, I think you see that stand uniformity. I know when I'm riding down the road with my family, I'm constantly looking out going, gosh, look at all that fusiform rust. my gosh. And they're like, gosh, would you know, first of all, please watch the road. And second of all, why do you care? And I care because, you know, I do this every day. And I can, but I can also tell, and some of this I'm cheating a little bit because I use land glide to know who the landowners are.
Paul Jeffreys (42:08)
Yeah
Jason Watson (42:21)
But I see some of our partners that have planted, been planting control pollinated, know, MCP seedlings for the last 10 to 15 years. And I see several trees in a row, even before the sand is thinned, that qualify for chip and saw already, or, you know, if the mill will take them. But they certainly, from a tree quality standpoint, they qualify. They're over nine inches and they're of chip and saw quality, defect free.
That's when I go, gosh, that landowner has got so much optionality. If the pulp prices get good, sell it as pulpwood. But it's just like the idiom you used earlier, the example, you can sell those trees in a pulp mill. Who cares if they pay you $15 to $20 a ton for pulpwood, send it to the pulp mill. That's fine. But certainly, if that's a stand that Paul Jeffreys owns, he can sell that tree to multiple markets.
Paul Jeffreys (43:03)
Right, right. mean, yeah.
Jason Watson (43:11)
He's prepared for lot of different markets with those stat grades.
Paul Jeffreys (43:11)
Hmm?
You got, you have
a consistency, you have a consistency across the stand of quality trees. You have fewer defect, you have better form. You've got just got that consistency across that stand and you've got a greater saw timber yield. But look, let's go back to the original, what we were talking about matters and you've got higher value per acre on your, for your stand, for your timber.
Jason Watson (43:19)
That's right. Yeah.
.
Paul Jeffreys (43:38)
face it. That's what the bottom line is. You're flexible across those markets, like you said. So, you know, in, before we wrap up today, if a landowner is planning on planting this coming year, what should they be thinking about?
Jason Watson (43:52)
I know this is your mantra every day. It really still, in all the things we've talked about here, don't forget that, and they taught us this as forestry students, it's all about the landowner's objectives, first and foremost. Just because we're providing this kind of advice doesn't mean that.
Look, we still have people that say, still want to plant, I hear you loud and clear, but I want to plant my MCP at a higher stocking rate. And that's their decision. The one thing I would say is ask questions, ask so many questions, ask questions until you're blue in the face and make sure you're fully informed. But coming back to your question in the interest of time, the way that they should be thinking first and foremost, the best advice I could give somebody is be informed. You like we said,
Paul Jeffreys (44:14)
Yep, 605.
Jason Watson (44:34)
The South is not a timber market. The South is hundreds of micro markets. Be informed, be an informed consumer of what the timber market is in your area. Have a long discussion with one of our reforestation advisors or even just a colleague or if you're a landowner, you're consulting a professional forester. Be informed and then take it from there first about the market you're operating in.
Paul Jeffreys (44:39)
All right.
Jason Watson (45:01)
And then if you're going to be thinking about dropping those trees per acre, do you be really focused on conducting good site preparation that your track needs from an individual track standpoint, not a blanket prescription. If you're dropping those trees per acre, say it over and over again, be genetics focused. Think about there's different options for MCP that could maybe be a more of a fit for your scenario.
But think about the importance of optimization. Creating trees that can be sold as more than one product is, I think, something that's crucially important. And we've got a of time to discuss that with anybody. At the end of the day, though, we just want you to be comfortable with your decision and be fully informed. And that's why we're here for you.
Paul Jeffreys (45:49)
And,
and we want you to utilize information from, the science and ask the questions, always ask the questions. Just because somebody says this doesn't mean that that is always ask questions, but rely on those people that have the background and the knowledge in the markets and in the genetics and in the industry as to what to base your
decisions on, don't just go by what I call coffee shop talk and listen to, know, be sure that you listen, you know, refer to, if they have questions, please reach out to us at any time. Your local reforestation advisor, your local ArborGen reforestation advisor. If you don't know who that is, visit our website. We have a link on there where you can find your local reforestation advisor and all of us.
have extensive education and knowledge in forestry, backgrounds in forestry, and we all have a specialty or an expertise in some facet of forestry related. So with in closing up, and thank you so much, Jason, for your time today. Thank you so much.
Jason Watson (47:00)
Thank you for having me.
Paul Jeffreys (47:01)
closing up with that planting fewer trees does not mean that you're going to produce less wood. Planting fewer trees does not mean you're going to produce less wood. If you plant the right genetics.
You're going to, instead of producing less wood, you're going to produce more value by planting the right genetics on the property that you own. And you're going to create that value across multiple disciplines and timber and forest products, wildlife, aesthetics. You're going to create a healthier ecosystem and a healthier market. So with that being said,
Thank you all again for tuning in to this episode, Lucky 13 of the TreeLines podcast. I'm your host, Paul Jeffreys. If you have any questions, please reach out to any of my colleagues or myself. You can find our contact information on our website, ArborGen.com. And with that being said,
I hope you all have a wonderful week and tune in again next time for the next episode of ArborGen's TreeLines Podcast. Thank you and have a great day.