Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Meaningful stories and conversations from the fringe of societal norms.
[00:00:15:12 - 00:00:45:06]
What kind of spawned this change was incorporating what I have been doing, which is getting together, having good, authentic conversations, but also incorporating some of the things that do drive me crazy. And trip reviews, they're always the same. It's me sitting in front of the computer and trying to put some pictures together. So maybe incorporating the two will free up some more time. Here we go. West Bank anglers permit to think. It's a little different.
[00:00:58:22 - 00:01:24:10]
All right, here we go. Welcome back today. We are talking to the other side of the world, which is really cool. Another reason why we've made the changes that we've had. We have Ben Hall from Airborne New Zealand joining us today and Sean Andrews from Category 3 Flies. Thanks, boys. Thanks for joining us. Joining me. Thanks for the pleasure to be here, Mike.
[00:01:25:13 - 00:01:49:05]
Yeah. How the hell are you guys doing? Can't complain, man. Can't complain. The summer's starting to come on. Pretty solid now. We've had some beautiful warm days. Rain's starting to peter off and rivers are coming back to really, really pretty much perfect flow. So yeah, it's all good. Yeah. Did you get your lawnmower fixed, Sean?
[00:01:50:07 - 00:02:03:02]
Oh, yeah. I'm back in my happy space, Mike. Yeah. That's awesome. I'm hoping for reincarnation and I want to come back as a lawnmower. Yeah.
[00:02:06:09 - 00:02:46:00]
Well, this is, I've been looking forward to this one because we just had an amazing trip together. At least I did. Yeah. I mean, just wishing I was back in New Zealand. We've had some wildly strange weather here, so much so that it's screwing up the calendar. I mean, in 25 years, I've never not seen snow on the ground mid-December. Wow. It's kind of wild. But back to the happy thoughts of our trip. We've been fortunate enough to go on a bunch of trips together.
[00:02:47:04 - 00:03:02:01]
I had a question when I was thinking about it. For those listening, we all went to St. Brandon's together, which was a special trip. St. Brandon's at all off Mauritius. And Sean, I know for sure
[00:03:03:14 - 00:03:07:11]
you're with me in the sick department, right? Like you went down quick.
[00:03:08:14 - 00:04:25:19]
Oh, yeah. Talk about the most brutal 24 hours of your life. You make that 48 because you've got to come back as well. Ben, if I'm remembering, this is what spawned it was I was looking through some photos and making some notes before joining on and you didn't get sick, right? No, miraculously, I was really fortunate to be one of two in the party that didn't get sick. The mistake we made was agreeing with the crew that we should throw out some big game lures two or three hours out from St. Brandon's at all and not thinking we're actually going to catch anything. We promptly hooked up a big tuna or blue marlin. And the moment we started reversing back into that enormous swell back towards Mauritius, we became the least popular people on the boat pretty quickly. And I think JT got sick, right? Yeah, he was he was rough. He was rough. It was it was Ewan Bart. That was yeah, but no, we were we were pretty fine. I mean, there was no sleep, no sleep at all. But
[00:04:26:21 - 00:09:11:00]
yeah, no physical illness, which I feel very fortunate of. Yeah, no, I was it didn't take long. Once we got out of the league, I was I was down for the count. But I think I think that's what's so exciting about doing doing this one is that, you know, we feel fortunate enough, we're going to be able to do some work together. We already do. And we'll get to that. But also, it's just, you know, you guys have become good friends and lucky to get introduced by some some other great friends. And yeah, it's just a pleasure. So thanks again. One thing that's interesting is when you, you know, when you make friends, it's a really fulfilling part about doing this is sometimes you wonder to yourself, like, you know, I've never asked a or I've never asked B. And I don't think I've ever asked either of you guys about how you got started in the guiding because, you know, we'll get into your transition in a bit here. But how did you know, Sean, how did you get started in in your your fishing guiding career? This is in Scandinavia, right? Yeah, it was it was up in northern Sweden. And I'd started fly fishing as a kid, I was lucky I had a relative who had access to a beat on the test, which is where I learned to fish as a kid and then took some time out to get a PhD in partying, and found myself up in northern Sweden with limited job opportunities. And, you know, obviously, weather plays a big part into everyday life up there and kind of just stumbled into the guiding game. I was I was fishing my brains out and then people's friends started coming with me and then friends of friends and it just sort of morphed in into a guiding business, so to speak. Yeah, then 2002, lucky enough to be able to get an invite to come down to New Zealand to do some work and never left. Yeah. And that was mostly for Atlantic salmon? No, that was pretty much trout and grayling. Okay. Up there. Sweden's kind of destroyed most of its good salmon rivers through hydroelectric power and that kind of thing. But yeah, it was a cool experience living up there and just the darkness in winter is absolutely brutal and can rapidly turn you into an alcoholic. Yeah. But am I am I right? Right. At one point it was a, you know, way back thriving Atlantic salmon fishery or no? Yes, it was pre-hydroelectric power. It was cranking, man. It was as good as Norway and then they just blew it really. Yeah, I mean, you're talking a pretty serious remote part of the world and a relatively small country population wise anyway. And I guess the economics of it were what they were and they did what they needed to do. And how about you, Ben? What was the, I should have prefaced this whole thing, right? We're talking, both of you guys are based, talking to you right now in the Taupo region on the North Island of New Zealand. But I'm presuming it was in or around that region? Yeah. So I grew up on a sheep and beef farm about an hour southwest of Lake Taupo and where my parents farmed and was really fortunate to have a great little trout stream that bordered the farm. So I spent a huge amount of my childhood fishing and my father was a keen fly fisherman and he insisted that, you know, fly fishing was the only way to fish for anything. So he insisted I learn how to fly fish. Yeah, I mean, I just grew up doing it and loved it. Absolutely loved it. In fact, yes, it is a bit of a long story in that my father was also friends with Simon Dickey who started a pretty famous lodge here in New Zealand. And he would periodically send guests over to our farm. And because I knew where all the trout were, I would get time off school and I'd be able to take these guys out and find fish. And I knew where they all were. So it was just a great day out. And I suppose that's sort of how I got into becoming a fishing guide. Yeah, started really young and loved it.
[00:09:12:01 - 00:10:07:05]
What age was the first time that Simon sent someone over? I was probably 14 or 15 years old. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, he'd send someone over with a guide. But of course, this river had a really, really small population of fish, but I knew where they all were. So it's made sense for me to chuck them both on a quad bike and whip out to all of the key spots. Yeah, yeah. And another fun part of doing these is it's amazing what you can find on the internet these days. But I read something about, you've been today about how you brought an eel to a school at one point for a measuring contest. Is that correct? That is correct. Yeah. So on the weekends, I mean, I'm not really proud of it now,
[00:10:08:06 - 00:10:48:12]
because our native New Zealand longfin and shortfin eel are actually sort of a pretty endangered sort of species. But back in those days, on the weekends, we would go eeling and catch as big of eels as we possibly could. And anything that was bigger than normal would be put in the school bag and taken to school. And there was one kid there with a fairly sizable set of feet, and he was in charge of measuring them out. There was a certain amount of pride and manner, I suppose you'd call it, or a speck that came from coming to school with the largest eel.
[00:10:50:14 - 00:13:31:13]
I mean, as you kind of mentioned, I mean, the eel, that's just, I mean, there's so many things about New Zealand that are, you know, we'll get to the helicopter culture, I mean, all of it that are amazing to me, but the eel's one that I still, I mean, it freaks me out probably more than it should, but it's revered as well, right? I mean, like, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, they're a really, really important food source for the indigenous Māori people of New Zealand. They fish for them a lot. They're a really, really important food source. Yeah, I think that they call them like a tauga, which is like a gift. You know, it's something very, very special to their culture. And yeah, I mean, as sinister as they are, they do have a tendency to turn up sort of quite stealthily and give you a hell of a fright. They're actually pretty harmless, and they're endemic to New Zealand, and they're quite special. Isn't there like a spiritual, I mean, belief with the eels as well, which I found interesting. One of you guys just tell me about that. I think that might have been me, Mike. I was at a weekend with a guy called Tom Lachlan, who you've met. Yeah, that's great. And he's also been in the shop, right? Yeah, I missed him. Yeah, that's right. He came to see you when he was over in Wyoming. And Tom has a nice piece of water that runs through his property. But I was involved in a weekend with a family, and it was a kind of spiritually kind of driven weekend. And we put out a Hinaki, which is kind of like lobster pot, but for eels, they can get in and can't get out. And in the morning, we were releasing the eels, and Tom and another person who was in the group picked up the spiritual feeling from an eel that he released that related to one of the group's mothers. And it was a real special moment in my life that I will never forget. It was completely unprompted. And somebody else in the party said to me, "That's their mother," without Tom even hearing that. And then he gave his speech about how the mother was present in this eel. So definitely has some serious spiritual connotations there and a spiritual being.
[00:13:32:19 - 00:13:56:14]
Yeah, I mean, I remember it was that story. And I remember you telling me, and you guys had told me some other stories when I was inquiring about the eels. But what's interesting is, that was a change. Now that we've done a couple of trips together in New Zealand, that was kind of a change. We saw a couple of eels on this most recent trip, and I wasn't running for the hills.
[00:13:58:03 - 00:20:39:12]
And maybe it was from that story. And that's a pretty cool story. A question that we get a lot, and I know you guys have both done some fishing on the South Islands, as well as the North, obviously, where you live. How would you guys just generally describe the difference? I have my own personal outlook, having fished both. But that's also a bias, right? I feel kind of at home with you guys in Taupo. But how would you describe the difference between the two fishing experiences? I think the South Island is definitely more well known as primarily a brown trout fishery. It's scenically really, really dramatic. The scenery is unbelievable, not to say that the scenery is not unbelievable in the North. But I suppose in the South Island, it's sort of more in your face and prominent with the Southern Alps as dramatic as they are running right down the center of that island. There's a huge amount of fishing scope in the South Island. But I guess, I suppose in recent years, you'd probably say that, I suppose the Instagram effect has probably had a bit of more of a negative effect on the South Island fishery, as opposed to the North, just because it is so photographed and has become more well known by international travelers, international anglers. I mean, there's still superb fishing in the South Island. But I suppose there's more off the beaten track spots, sort of not undiscovered spots, but largely untouched spots in the North. I suppose that's the way I'd describe it. And of course, the North Island, we do have brown trout, we have plenty of brown trout, but we've also got a lot of rainbow fisheries. And some of our most famous rivers up here are primarily rainbow fisheries. Yeah. Yeah, I'm relatively new to fishing the South Island. And in the last three or four years, I've done a few trips down there and it's different. And I can't tell you exactly how it's different, but it's just different. Generally, the rivers are bigger and not quite, in some respects, as intimate as a bush-clad North Island stream. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but there's certainly a sense of intimacy that I feel in the North Island that I don't feel down South. But in that respect, it's probably the same for a South Island that coming up North to fish. But I think we have, generally speaking, a higher population of fish in the North Island than you see down South. I mean, some rivers you fish down South, you're so elated when you finally spot one in a pool that that quickly turns to, "Oh, I've only got another 16 kilometers to walk till I see the next one." I'm exaggerating slightly, but there is an element of truth in that. And going back to what Ben said earlier, Ben was one of the pioneers of discovery back in the day, and in some degrees still today of fishing water that people just didn't really know about. The focus in New Zealand in the North Island was on the topore fishery and its tributaries, the spawning tributaries. And that's where 95% of North Island New Zealanders fish because they didn't know any better. And there was all this backcountry wilderness out there that was, from a fishing perspective, was relatively unexplored. And Ben was early in the game on that. And when he retired from the lodge scene, then I kind of got a sniff of what he was doing and instantly became addicted. So between the two of us, we're pretty well known for having a poke around. All right, well, that's, obviously, it's all amazing in New Zealand. I don't get enough time that we're in either spot. But it's just, you know, I get that question a lot. And I'm sure you guys do. So it's a good one to at least talk about. But that is a good transition. You guys have been guiding for a long time and still are, which I find is amazing, but obviously only for select few. I feel lucky enough that, you know, we've got a couple of small trips with you guys. We're talking about poking around the bush. And both you guys have done that. I am blown away that in this day and age, you can still fish something that not only you guys haven't fished, but most likely no one has ever fished, which we did. But that brings me to your transition, Ben, from guide to helicopter pilot, and then guide and helicopter pilot, right? So I mean, that's pretty unique in itself. Just through a really fortuitous turn of events, I suppose you'd say that I finished up my guiding career at Poranui Lodge in 2011. I think it was. I started flying in 2010. And once I got my commercial license, I pretty much dedicated the next 12 years to flying. And I didn't do any guiding at all. And the thing was, when I was guiding, I kept thinking to myself, geez, I'd really love to fly. And I always have wanted to fly. And then once I got my license and I was flying commercially for a number of years, I used to look invariably at the fishing guides, as they were they were heading off upstream on a day's guiding and thinking, man, that'd be nice to be spending the day with them. Yeah, just through this crazy turn of events and this incredible opportunity through a mutual friend of all of ours, I was able to get involved in another helicopter. Yeah, basically now we're sort of putting a program together whereby
[00:20:40:13 - 00:22:36:01]
I fly and guide and we fly out to our fishing destination, switch off the machine, the machine's dedicated to our fishing party for the day and we fish all day and then we head home in the evening, which has been really amazing, really, really incredible and quite a unique experience for our guests, I think. I think the addiction to spotting a fish never gets out of your system. And for the folks who haven't been to New Zealand to fish, we pretty much hunt our fish and walk the river until we see our target. And the challenge to yourself to spot a fish in water that's very difficult to spot in becomes addictive. It's like looking for golf balls instead of playing golf. It's way more fun than trying to hit the thing. Looking for the one and finding it is a lot more rewarding and I don't think that addiction ever goes away. It is incredible and especially then when you get the opportunity to put somebody in a position to cast to that fish, it's a team game. And that whole team spirit just, yeah, it's a hard thing to walk away from. I'm struggling to do it. Ben had a little brief period there of 11 years where he couldn't get his fix, but he's back in the game now. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it's fantastic. But Sean, you bring up a great point because one of the things that I got a lot of chuckles with about spotting fish and I'm curious if it was just me, but I noticed a little friendly competition when you guys were together.
[00:22:37:01 - 00:24:04:13]
And I think it's true, but I try to keep up with you guys and in my head I'd be like, "All right, I'm gonna get to the next pool first and I'm gonna spot a fish." And that just never happened. But what I noticed between you guys is every once in a while someone would tie a shoe or take a sip of water and that was go time for someone else to get there first and say, "I got a fish." Is that true? It's gotta be. To a degree, but it's almost impossible to get to a pool before Ben. The man is part goat. So that is partly true though. I mean, even if I've noticed Ben is always, there's no catching Ben, but I saw you make a break for it a couple times when Ben would do something, right? Oh yeah, it's always nice to get the first set of eyes on the pool, but it doesn't happen very often. Yeah, I am guilty. I am guilty of forging a header, but I must say. Yeah, and sometimes I'm mindful of that, but sometimes, yeah, just instinct takes over and I just can't wait. I get a bad case of round the corner ascitis.
[00:24:06:18 - 00:24:35:18]
I've got a look in that next pool. Yeah, that's funny. I knew it was true. I had a good feeling, but heading back to the transition and Sean, both you guys are business owners, but Sean, your transition from full-time guiding to also category three flies, which we're proud to carry in the shop and we're actually putting together a couple of boxes today.
[00:24:36:19 - 00:24:42:13]
Yeah, how did that all come about? Potentially, I got employee of the year.
[00:24:44:15 - 00:30:44:05]
I was together and I mean, it's a great operation. How'd that come about? Well, the fact that you're employee of a year comes down to the fact that I'm a lazy bastard. And if I could get somebody else to pick an order, I will. No, that's not the case. But oh, it's one of the most exciting things I've ever done, Mike. And it's a never ending battle of spreadsheets and stuff like that. But setting up a fly company happened to me kind of by accident. I just got tired of tying so many flies and I thought there's an easier way to do this. So I was lucky enough to get a partnership with a facility in the Philippines that could produce good quality flies. And that then reduced my time tying flies in the winter for my summer guiding. And then people started to ask if they could buy those flies. And then before you know it, we were getting them into stores. And it's just one of those things that's continued to grow for seven years. But it's been super exciting to watch it happen. And yeah, something I'm very proud of. Yeah. And it seems like you should be. And I mean, it's you know, we're selling some in the shop and it's awesome. But it seemed to me like when I was in New Zealand that there's quite the buzz in New Zealand currently or always has been, I'm not sure. But it seemed to me that that's the case. I don't know if that's just the general uptick in fishing that I seem to feel over here or if it's just, you know, you guys make great shit. Or maybe it's my kids wearing the sweatshirts all over the place. I don't know. I think one of the crucial things for us has been the quality of the hook. I mean, you can go long. Fishing for trout in New Zealand can be like fishing for permit. You can go a long time without a hookup. So when you finally get that one, you know, having a hook failure on that whole situation is just too depressing to deal with. So quality hooks have been a big part of our success, I believe. And I remember back in the day talking to Dennis Black, who was the founder of Umpqua Feather Merchants. And he was selling flies in New Zealand. And he said his first shipment of flies that he ordered from the facility to sell in New Zealand, he tied them all on TMCO 900s, a standard dry fly hook, and didn't think anything of it. And then realized that that hook is not really capable of handling New Zealand-sized trout and consequently had massive issues. So I had that little snippet of information in my mind from years earlier. And I soon realized that that is a key element to the game of selling flies in New Zealand. The hook has to be good. There's just too much time of not catching when you're fishing in New Zealand to have hook failures come into play. Even with 3X, right? And I guess you could argue 4X. I mean, if you know how to fight a fish, you can pull very hard and they're big fish. And I think it's safe to say that on this last go, right, when we were all fishing, we were pulling pretty hard on the fish and we didn't bend. We might have bent them out, but we bent them back, right? Maybe one? Yeah, possibly. But if you're with somebody who knows how to play fish and handle bigger fish, then even a TMCO 900 shouldn't be a problem. But from a guiding perspective, you're not always in that situation. So it's just one point of failure that you can relatively easy eliminate from the game, unless you've got a fly that specifically by nature requires a very fine light hook. I just went on an entire trip and fished nothing but category three flies the whole time. So I thought that was, you know, that was wrong. Yeah, the difference also is, because our fishery is so visual, I mean, you first you find your target and then work out your strategy for casting and potentially hooking the fish. And that also has given me a 20-year or over 20-year knowledge of seeing how fish react to certain flies or not react to certain flies. I've been playing around with ultraviolet and all those sorts of things that you can bring into fly design. But over a 20-year period, you start to get some kind of data in your mind about how they react to certain flies, certain light, and so forth. And the patterns that we sell are, by and large, my designs. And those come from 20 years of watching fish react differently to different flies. Yeah, it's, well, they work as well, right? I mean, it's kind of cool.
[00:30:45:05 - 00:32:35:18]
Yeah, it's really cool for a product to come out of that, right? I mean, both of your transitions are that cool, right? Like talking about a lot of work, a lot of years, and all experience-based transitions. And that's pretty rare from you spending thousands of days looking at flies. And Ben, you're wondering what's around the next mountain when you're stuck in there guiding. And I don't know, it's a really cool story to me. And probably the most shared video since I've been home has been, everyone wants to see the fish. And I'm like, "Yeah." But I'm like, "Well, check out our shuttle." And on the first day that we went, you were coming in pretty low and it was right in the corner. It's a pretty cool video. Nice. Yeah, just the terrain in New Zealand is, well, especially in the North Island, I guess, really, really steep-sided valleys. Often, the available landing pad is quite snug. It's certainly an experience in itself, just getting in there. Yeah, that video that I've showed the most, the next question is, after there's a holy shit, is that safe? And I say, "Well, I'm here now talking about it." But I watch you guys more than I watch the terrain because I'm a nervous flyer.
[00:32:37:04 - 00:32:52:03]
Yeah, you have mentioned that. Yeah, you guys are pretty calm out there, especially when you're flying the bird. I mean, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah, well, you spend a lot of time in those
[00:32:53:12 - 00:37:39:13]
confined type environments and you become really, really aware of the profile, the rotor diameter, the length of the aircraft. It's a bit of a cliché, but when you sit in the seat, it becomes a part of yourself. As you're coming in on your approach, you're noticing a lot of things that you probably wouldn't if you're not flying the aircraft, overhanging trees, trees encroaching over the river, rocks that are going to be behind you, near the tail rotor, all of those things. But also, I'm saying that these places are places we've been hundreds of times before, not necessarily fishing, but just landing, the spots that we've been to, we know them well. So, yeah, safety is always a massive priority whenever going to risk any of us. So, yeah, that's always high priority. Get in and out safe. Yeah, I mean, for us, right, you're going trout fishing, you're getting in a vehicle, which you do every day. It's just such an amazing culture to me and it seems like it's a part of the broader culture, right? I mean, here, if you see a helicopter, it's search and rescue. That's it. And it's just, I'm becoming more comfortable with it, having done a couple of trips now, but it's an amazing skill set and what an amazing tool. I mean, the fact that there's stuff to think about and look at exploring still is mind boggling to me. Yeah, same here. There are still spots that I'm yet to go and look at. I'm looking forward to going to see. Yeah, it's pretty special. It's pretty special. We are spoiled down here for the amount of rivers and streams that we do have. And it is really amazing. It amazes me where we find trout. I mean, they've essentially made their own way there. I mean, they weren't artificially released into every single little watershed. I mean, they released into major river systems and then they found their way up into every single little knock and cranny and tributary and creek. And it's incredible. Yeah. Another thing I did before getting together tonight was I went through my notes from the last trip. And it was funny because a couple of things pissed me off last time in my packing. And so I made a couple notes, but on the notes that I made, the first thing at the top was just I just written pivot with like a big exclamation point. And I usually do that when that's like the big takeaway. And I think I'm hoping that you guys would agree, right? If someone's never come to New Zealand and fish before, that's something they should be able to do. Is the plans often change, especially with when you're using a helicopter, river flows. It's just the geography is so much different than here that we see rain and then we know it's going to come this way. And it just seems like it's different. Would you guys concur that when you're guiding, that's a key element for those coming to fish with you? Yeah, absolutely. New Zealand being a really long skinny couple of islands with a big ridge of terrain running right down the middle of it, we're really prone to all sorts of changeable weather. So yeah, you absolutely have to change plans regularly to make way for changing weather. That's absolutely, yeah, you just have to be prepared to make those changes. It's just part of the territory. We have four seasons here and early trout season in spring, naturally we have high water conditions. So yeah, we tend to be getting up into the smaller tributaries earlier in the season. And then as the summer comes on, those the trout tend to drop out of those smaller streams and back down into the main stems. So yeah, but it's nice to have that variability. There's always going to be somewhere that's fishing well, as long as you can get there in the machine. I think amongst guides and pilots are pretty similar in weather respects when it comes to New Zealand. Everybody's running, looking at four or five different weather apps or providers,
[00:37:40:13 - 00:40:03:15]
sometimes even on an hourly basis prior to a day's fishing. And Ben as the pilot, obviously it's his call as to whether you can get in or out or not, but the weather is a crucial factor here on all sorts of different fronts. Yeah, and I know Ben's not going to say it, so I am. I mean, he's an absolute badass when it comes to being a pilot in regards of safety and skill. And since I didn't have a lot of info, I've asked some others and everyone seemed to concur that not only do you know your way around the bush better than anyone, but that the skill set is truly remarkable and I got to experience it. So I'm lucky on that front, that's for sure. A couple of other notes I had down was waiting, just big waiting. I think I even had like a star around it because last time I just showed up with no waiting staff and you know, rubs and rugs and I was trying to keep my composure, but I was a disaster. I mean, I would also say you got to be able to get around, right? I mean, in the spots you guys are relatively fit, right? Yeah, fitness is definitely a key aspect to New Zealand fishing and the better you can get around and the better fitness you have definitely has an impact on your enjoyment level. I mean, even on some of the stuff that we would consider pretty easy walking, you know, smaller rocks and boulders, if you're physically not capable of that, then you're going to limit the amount of ground you can cover and by limiting the amount of ground you can cover is going to limit the amount of shots you're going to get. We don't have 10 fish in a pool. We might have one and then the next one then is in the pool above or maybe even two pools above and so the more ground you can cover, generally speaking, gives you better access to better fishing.
[00:40:05:05 - 00:41:13:09]
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And also a lot of our rivers are so tight, heavily forested, you know, you have to get to one place. You have to get to the place where the helicopter can pick you up. There's physically no other spots, you know, so being able to move through that barren water efficiently and being able to get up to where the helipad is for the end of the day, it helps a lot. Yeah. Yeah, the new Patagonia, the Fora boots, that layout with those studs. I don't know if, do you guys frown on studs or is it all right? No, I think they work great. I used to use studs. We don't allow felt sole boots here in New Zealand anymore. And I guess I've just got used to using, you know, stealth rubber, Vibram type or Michelin type soles. But I do use the wading stuff. I was actually really impressed with how you're getting around without wading stuff, Mike. But years ago, I've resigned to the fact that wading stuff is, I'd rather be a tripod than a bipod when I'm wandering up our streams.
[00:41:15:02 - 00:45:09:23]
Yeah. And it makes a huge difference. I did have a, I had an amazing, you know, not to give myself credit, but an amazing save on your wading staff that I think, I think Shawn even got on camera. Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, I was, I was thrilled. Yeah, that's right. Had that stick a long time. And, and yeah, yeah, I think you were fighting a fish at the same time, I believe. And it slid off a rock down to the river. It was, it was floating away at a rate of night. So I appreciate it. I think I took a little bit of water, a little bit of water on, but yeah, I mean, in the other thing that I had written down, which I think it came to fruition. So I'm, I'm interested to hear your take was, was that, you know, the new, the new clear tips trout line, which, you know, I found myself thinking about, you know, is it better than a long leader and an accurate cast? I don't know. But, but it is, it, it did seem to be easier. And it, and there was a couple of times where I could almost hold the line over, you know, go a little longer than I would have with a, you know, your standard line. Would you guys think that's a reality that it could make a difference or? Yeah, I, I was definitely impressed with that line. I've never used one in the freshwater before. And the thing I was probably concerned about was not being able to see the end of your line from, from a mending perspective, but actually you either intuitively know where it is, or you can actually vaguely see where your line is despite it being clear. Yeah, I can't imagine it being anything but advantageous from a stealth point of view. Anyway, from a presentation point of view, it's got to be good. Long leaders can be a, be a pretty tough call in some of the streams we're fishing as well. I mean, those tight bush streams, the pools themselves aren't particularly big. And once you start getting a long leader and, and obviously harder to handle, then probably 80% of the fish you're going to catch are going to be on your first cast and your chance of hooking that fish is diminishing by 50% with every presentation you make. So anything you can do to assist that is going to work in your favor. You know, the other note was on the first trip, but I'm not sure it might've been Mark or it might've been one of you guys, but I had the, you know, a prototype of a full clear trout line. And then I got a couple of like, what are you doing? And, and I couldn't see like, I had no, right? I mean, you could see the fly, but after that zero reference point. And so I had that struck down, you know, to your point of mending or let's say you lose your fly for a second, you got, you got nothing to, you know, reference real quick on that first cast to have success. So I do, I do think I would strike the full clear, but the, the 12 foot clear tip I found just in permit fishing was nothing but a, you know, advantage really. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it floated up to it floated. It floated well. Yeah. Yeah. And being as we're on record here, Mike, definitely the words, what are you doing would never come from Ben or my, you're putting it on Mark.
[00:45:11:06 - 00:45:36:21]
Mark can take that one. So he's getting it. He's awesome. We had a great run and there was a couple of those. Like, I wish I had a, there was a dry fly moment where I know, and you know, I didn't know to, I'm used to cut to it. I thought I was waiting plenty. The other two things I had written down were layers, waiters, and water. Cause I'm just, you know, I'm used to drinking a lot of water
[00:45:38:03 - 00:49:56:01]
watching you guys drink out of the river, uh, rivers, right? That, that kind of struck that out of the checklist. That was a, that's a pretty, pretty massive bonus that we don't have, but the waiter, the waiter thing is interesting because, right? I mean, you guys will either, either wet wait sometimes with some neoprene leggings if it's, if you want a wet wade, or you will go waiters or waiting pants. And I, I, I, that first time neoprene, uh, leggings and you know, no waiters the whole trip. And this time waiters the whole trip. And I think I'd probably go, go waiters, but you guys seem to go back and forth quite a bit. I prefer to wet, I mean, I prefer to wet wade. I probably wet wade 80% of the time, unless it's, unless it's really, really cold. Those, those new neoprene leggings, they keep you quite warm. They're, um, they're really good. Those backcountry skins, they're, they're a great thing. And they, they also protect your legs from, from sandflies. And we have plenty of those. And for some reason they prefer Northern Hemisphere blood, the Southern Hemisphere blood. So I would recommend bringing something whether it's waiters or, or, or neoprene leggings. Yeah. Bear legs. I sometimes wear bear legs, but, um, yes, having something to protect your legs is a good thing. Yeah. And the other thing is, you know, probably the thing that I've thought about the most on my two recent trips there is just the fact that nothing can kill you, you know, in regards to, I mean, I'm reading Doug Peacock's Grizzly Years book, which I, which I mentioned in the, in the prior podcast, but it is, uh, yeah, I mean, having that removed from your, your mind is, is, you know, it can't, I can't say it enough to be honest, cause I mean, a lot of you, you probably get a lot of clients from the Northern Hemisphere that are, you know, that's on their mind. It's pretty remarkable. Really. I mean, yeah. Yeah. It really is. Even our friends across the ditch in Australia, I mean, they've, they've got it all over there. Uh, and yeah, they, they revel in the fact that there's nothing here that's gonna, that's gonna kill you. Um, yeah. Bite you with some sort of crazy venom. Um, yeah, we're really fortunate in that respect. Everything can kill you over there. Right. Everything, everything. The other thing that I've thought about is, you know, there's nothing that can kill you except for yourself. You know, we, Sean and I had a moment when I think we were, you know, that was on a river that I think, right. Neither of you guys had been to ever, and maybe no one has been there besides, you know, a caretaker or someone, but where we were trying to get back to the, you know, you had, you had pointed out where you were going to land. I, I think I, I convinced Sean that he was talking about the wrong place. He was actually talking about the right place. So we were, we were trying to, uh, you know, excuse my mistake and, uh, you know, I took a swim in waiters and I think it's, it's worth pointing out, right. Because we were, we were moving a little quicker than probably would have. And it, it, it wasn't a big, a big piece of water and I was able to, you know, get up pretty quickly, but good, good reminder, you know, there's, there's no grizzly turn in the corner that's going to kill you, but you're still in a, in a river with a lot of boulders and, you know, you're in a pretty remote spot and safety's paramount to it all, obviously. So if I remember rightly, I let you go first, Mike. Yeah, I couldn't tell if Ben was mad at us or, um, yeah. No, not at all.
[00:49:58:00 - 00:51:22:00]
I just threw out a little, uh, yeah, I went for a swim, but, uh, cause I was like, I gotta get this water out of my waiters. And you were like, we don't have the time. And I was like, well, I can't walk, man. That was the first time any of us had been on that, on that river. And it was a bit high that day, wasn't it? It was, yeah, we, we sort of committed to go there and, and it was pumping. So I'm looking forward to going back there and, and summer flows. I think it's going to be quite a different experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, I guess that's another big takeaway, right? Like for us, when things are pumping, it's, it's, uh, it always is a equates with really off color, like chocolate milk water. And so if I still see clear water, it's really hard for me to gauge, you know, I mean, is that fair to say too, even if the river comes up a little bit, it can still be crystal clear on a majority of the rivers. Yeah. Yeah, it can be. And the, and the dead giveaway is how, how far the white water at the head of the pool extends down into the main body. The pool is, is always a bit of an indicator of how sort of pushy it is and how, how much water's in the, in the system. Generally speaking,
[00:51:23:02 - 00:51:35:14]
we're fishing the headwaters of the headwaters, particularly early seasoners, been alluded to earlier for various reasons. So they're usually the first things to clear. So
[00:51:36:15 - 00:54:33:21]
from that respect, quite often the water we're fishing is clear when lower downstream may, may be colored up. They do tend to clear quite quickly. They don't necessarily go down quickly, but they do clear quite quickly. Um, and a lot of our river systems, yeah, can be deceptive. And I, I think we're kind of the opposite to the United States. Don't you guys generally have smaller fish in the headwaters and larger fish in the wider rivers downstream? Whereas here, we are, the, the larger fish will be in the headwaters certainly in the early season and, and the smaller fish will be down river. So we're kind of opposites on, on that front. Yeah. And we, we get a little bit of variance in that. Like we will occasionally catch a, you know, a monster in a small, small system at the head. But it's funny you bring that up. Cause that was another thing that I wanted to talk about was you, you guys must get that question all the time is like, where are the small fish? And I was super stoked that we, we saw a couple one day, but I think that's literally, you know, I could count on one hand how many fish I've seen, you know, under 20 or 18 inches in two trips. I mean, that's pretty remarkable. And is that mainly what, what you guys would attribute it to that the big fish are, you know, choosing where they want to be and, you know, staking out their ground. Yeah. I think, um, you know, like, like Sean was saying, we, we do fish right up in the headwaters and, and those trout up there, especially the male fish, the jacks, that they're essentially resident, resident trout. They live up there, they spawn up there. And of course, um, the, you know, the fingerlings hatch up there, but just the nature of the, of the stream pushes the small ones downstream into the sort of more easy going wider sections of river and the, and the main stems. And then they gradually make their way up. And any of those smaller trout that do manage to sort of stay up in the headwaters, I think they just kind of get bullied out of the, out of the premium sort of lies by the larger trout and, and just tend to move downstream anyway. Yeah, I think that definitely comes into play. They're getting, they get bullied from the pool, they're living in into the pool below, and then they get bullied again by whoever's living there. And it's just a transition. And before they know it, they're down in a big, big wide river with all their other mates. It's remarkable. You, you would think that you would make, you might see a little more crossover, you know, or at least once in a while catch a 16 inch fish, but it just sounds like it doesn't happen.
[00:54:36:17 - 00:57:47:02]
It does. It does happen a little bit. It happens every now and again, but you're right. They don't tend to be up in the areas that we're concentrating on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that combined obviously with, with nothing that can kill you, you know, the remoteness of, of where you guys are accessing everything. And, and I think really for me, the, the thing that I was so, I couldn't believe that I hadn't been back to New Zealand in so long prior to the, the first trip was it really is saltwater fishing in a way. I mean, I think you alluded to it earlier, Sean, but you know, that's addicting, right? I mean, you, you got to see a fish, like you said, your, your chances go way up if you're accurate on the first cast and move on if you, if you, if you screw it up, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah. And, and it's a team game too, Mike. It's, I mean, there's generally two, two guests and, and the guide, there's a three of you are first, first of all, just navigation up the river is, requires a team game at times. And, and you're, you're moving as a unit and then you, you see your target and you, you sit and discuss your strategy of, you know, where are you going to stand to cast to the fish? Where, what's the best angle of approach? And, and all three of you are involved in that discussion the whole time. And, and you've got time. It's not like standing on the front of a boat and chasing a permit and you've, you've got three seconds to get your shit together. Otherwise you've blown your shot. You know, the fish ain't going anywhere. So you can take your time about that part of it. And, and it is, it's an incredible experience. I mean, as you know, I'm a recent, this recent take her up or of saltwater fly. And I'm addicted to that probably because of the visual aspect of it. But as far as fishing for trout, it's, it's, it's the way to go, man. You know, there was a funny, you know, for those listening, there was a gentleman, a great pilot that was also with us, Burley, who wasn't, you know, he wasn't, didn't know much about fly fishing, but he was, he was walking up with us. And I think you guys had gone, or we, I should say, had gone, we were on, we were on a hot streak, right? It wasn't, it wasn't the blunders. It was, it was game all. I think we were like six for six or seven for seven or something. And Burley just said to me, I think you got, you were fishing and Sean, you were netting the fish. And Burley was like, is it, is it really this easy? And I was like, Burley, just, just keep watching, man. Cause you're, you're going to see the wheels fall off the bus soon enough. But
[00:57:49:06 - 00:58:40:16]
there's a bunch of guys that, you know, these guys have been doing it for a long time. It's making me wish I was back there. And I know I've taken up a ton of your guys' time already. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you get back to it. But what a pleasure to, to link up with you guys tonight. Yeah. What are you, what are you late afternoon there, right? Yeah. It's what is it? It's three 30 now, beautiful day here in Topor. It's been a pleasure talking with you, Mike. It's been, it's been a lot of fun. It's always great to catch up. This is the first podcast I've ever been involved with. Maybe the last, but I can't imagine, I can't imagine ever getting invited to another one, but it's been really good fun. Thank you. A lot of fun, guys. Thank you. Yeah. How, how, I like the jacket, Ben. How's it, is it, is it better? Is it seen the bush?
[00:58:42:03 - 00:59:49:06]
Yeah. This three, this three-bird jacket, it's, it's a revelation. I've loved it. I've, I've swapped it around. I couldn't tell you if I wear it more black or green. I was actually up for dinner last night. I was running it green on the, on the outside. Yeah. Swapped around today. I was sort of more working environment, just like you said. Yeah. It's, it's a great piece, man. I'm wearing the hell out of it. I, I told the guys in the shop the other day, I was there because they were doing, you know, we were doing some Christmas ideas and I said, you know, just grab the jacket and say it's like a mullet, right? I mean, you know, you just party in front, business in the back or opposite. Absolutely. Sorry. Absolutely. Now it's a great concept. Yeah. Well, well, thanks again, boys. Miss you guys and, uh, I'm sure I'll be in touch. Look forward to, you know, continuing to work together, put together some of these trips, sell some flies and yeah, right on. Merry Christmas. Have fun with these boys. Thanks. Thanks, Mike. You too. Great to catch up. Take care. See ya.