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Summary
We're putting the band back together. Svelte Radio is officially back. This first episode is a bit of catch-up. Not a ton of Svelte chatter. Look forward to many fun and interesting episodes.
Next week we talk with Simon about Remote Functions. Don't miss it!
Show Notes
We're putting the band back together. Svelte Radio is officially back. This first episode is a bit of catch-up. Not a ton of Svelte chatter. Look forward to many fun and interesting episodes.
Next week we talk with Simon about Remote Functions. Don't miss it!
Show Notes
- Introducing SvelteKit Remote Functions, by Simon Holthausen
- SvelteKit Remote Functions tips: Auth guards, managing asynchronous, query.batch
- Svelte Bench
- Tembo
Hot takes
- Kevin: AI generates a lot of Workslop if you're not careful.
- Antony: Find something common and differentiate
- Brittney: Cats are better than dogs.
Picks
- Kevin: Slow Horses
- Brittney: Cate Cafés
- Antony: Gary's Economics
Creators and Guests
Host
Host
What is Svelte Radio?
Things about Svelte. Sometimes weekly, sometimes not.
Kevin: welcome to svelte radio hello everyone welcome to another episode of svelte radio
Kevin: long time no see
Kevin: Brittany Anthony hello
Brittney: hello
Brittney: last episode
Kevin: like last year
Kevin: I think
Brittney: you did a couple
Brittney: right like
Kevin: a couple conferences
Brittney: but the three of us I think
Brittney: it's been
Kevin: almost a year probably
Kevin: we've got the gang back together now
Brittney: yeah finally things
Kevin: have
Kevin: happened in Svelte World in our world
Brittney: I
Kevin: don't think anything's really
Antony: happened
Antony: I think it just paused
Antony: with us
Antony: yeah probably
Antony: we're the people
Kevin: just bringing everything
Kevin: forward in the Svelte world right
Kevin: without
Antony: us
Brittney: driven
Antony: by radio
Kevin: but we were at a conference
Kevin: we met at
Antony: a conference
Antony: again that was fun
Kevin: it was called Svelte Summit
Kevin: for those that are in to know
Kevin: that's the place
Brittney: to be
Brittney: and Spain was amazing incredible
Brittney: it
Antony: was
Antony: very grungy
Kevin: venue
Kevin: it was it was a great
Antony: it was rustic it was great vinnie i
Kevin: really like it was rustic i
Brittney: thought it
Brittney: was really pretty
Antony: i kind of wanted it as a house
Kevin: very pretty just just got just scared me a bit
Kevin: when the when their ceiling was leaking
Antony: just barely
Kevin: missed the audio and video gear
Antony: yeah
Kevin: it was fine and the toilet paper ran out and yeah there
Brittney: were like issues with the staff and
Brittney: management but we made it and we got through yeah it was great and it was good it was
Kevin: i i would say
Kevin: it was more fun than stockholm in a sense like stockholm was fun because it was the first time
Kevin: we got to meet everyone kind of
Brittney: that's true for
Kevin: me at least but then then this this time was just
Kevin: like meeting everyone again which was a lot of fun so but
Antony: it was very difficult like stockholm we had
Antony: this reserved place that was just took us all in and then we just chatted afterwards whereas
Antony: we ran around the whole of Spain
Antony: it felt like the whole of Spain afterwards
Brittney: I did run around the whole of Spain
Brittney: afterwards
Brittney: you really did
Brittney: we were
Antony: just trying to find one bar that would get us in
Antony: and basically try and sneak some people in
Antony: and then sort of filter people in
Antony: bit by bit so they didn't know it was a massive crowd
Antony: because they didn't want a massive crowd
Antony: so just get four people in
Antony: and then get them ordering drinks
Antony: and then oh there's four more people here
Antony: have some drinks
Antony: and then eventually 40 something people turn up
Antony: maybe six they're coming around and then they're like oh we have we have been played we have been
Kevin: played surely they they like it when people show up to their venue so they
Brittney: can sell their
Kevin: products
Kevin: right
Brittney: not american tourists when they're
Kevin: going through like a
Brittney: i see protest
Kevin: a rebel tourism
Kevin: people
Brittney: yeah yeah we
Kevin: are very rowdy i guess you're not american
Brittney: i just i said that sorry like there
Brittney: were quite a
Brittney: well I guess there
Brittney: were a lot of
Brittney: Americans that were
Brittney: there yeah yeah
Brittney: it's
Antony: nice not having
Antony: people talk about
Antony: British tourists for
Antony: once to be honest
Brittney: oh no we
Antony: are
Antony: definitely the worst
Antony: but it's nice that
Antony: it wasn't the
Antony: default that's quite
Antony: good
Brittney: I don't know
Brittney: every time
Kevin: I go to
Kevin: Hungary to visit
Kevin: friends I always hear
Kevin: about people
Kevin: complaining about
Kevin: British stag doos
Antony: yeah yeah
Kevin: yeah
Kevin: my
Antony: stag do was
Antony: Hungary I didn't
Antony: know if my stag do
Antony: was indeed in
Antony: really and it
Antony: It was in Hungary because,
Brittney: yeah,
Antony: because what's stag do?
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: It's like a bachelor party.
Antony: When you get married, it's like a bachelor party.
Brittney: It's like a stag party.
Brittney: Okay.
Brittney: Yeah.
Antony: It is a stag party.
Antony: It's not like a stag party.
Antony: It really is.
Antony: I just think stag
Brittney: do sounded very.
Antony: Oh, I see you.
Antony: I didn' know what you
Brittney: were talking about.
Antony: Do you know
Brittney: what do
Antony: is?
Brittney: No.
Brittney: I know.
Brittney: I've just heard the stag
Antony: do.
Antony: Maybe that's a Britishism.
Antony: So a do is party.
Antony: So, like, are we going to your birthday do?
Antony: It means going to your birthday party.
Antony: It
Brittney: does not sound like a party.
Brittney: I don't know why.
Antony: You know, it's a to-do.
Antony: I don't know.
Antony: I have no idea why it's called a do, but it's called a do.
Antony: We always call them do's.
Brittney: It sounds like a doo-doo.
Antony: Are you going to what's the space as do?
Brittney: Yeah.
Kevin: But, yeah, it was great.
Kevin: It was great.
Kevin: Spell Summit.
Kevin: I am looking forward to next year.
Antony: Spell do.
Antony: We've got a Spell do.
Kevin: Do we have a
Brittney: place yet?
Kevin: No, I'm still waiting for the tax registration stuff.
Kevin: It's a bit on me, to be fair.
Kevin: I've not really had the mental capacity to do stuff lately.
Brittney: I was going to say, you're not busy at all.
Kevin: No.
Kevin: No.
Kevin: Can I recommend Hungary?
Kevin: I mean, I would love that.
Kevin: It is.
Kevin: It
Brittney: is nice.
Brittney: I've never been to Hungary.
Antony: The draw of Hungary is it has a lot of spas and baths and, you know,
Antony: places you can go and have, like, sit in a big heated pool and stuff.
Antony: It's great fun.
Kevin: Yeah, it is very nice.
Kevin: Are
Brittney: they clothed?
Antony: Yes.
Antony: Not all of them.
Kevin: Not all of them.
Brittney: That might be awkward.
Brittney: I
Kevin: saw an advertisement for something called a Sparty.
Kevin: That's a party at a spa.
Kevin: Spoo.
Brittney: Spoo.
Brittney: Spadu.
Brittney: Spadu.
Kevin: Spadu.
Kevin: Spadu.
Brittney: Spadu.
Brittney: This is
Kevin: going to go all
Brittney: episodes.
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: Welcome back, guys.
Brittney: You're welcome.
Brittney: Yeah.
Kevin: We're just catching up.
Kevin: We haven't really chatted a
Brittney: lot, the
Kevin: three of us.
Kevin: So it's fun.
Kevin: I'm hoping the audience also enjoys it a bit.
Brittney: But let's
Kevin: maybe talk a bit about the Svelte Radio plans going forward.
Kevin: I would want this to happen once a week
Kevin: if we can do it
Kevin: maybe not
Kevin: maybe we will, maybe we won't
Kevin: but hopefully more frequent
Kevin: than the last year or so
Antony: this is the first
Antony: you have just told us of this by the way
Kevin: yes
Brittney: we are finding out
Brittney: I
Kevin: mean to be fair
Kevin: I did ask you like what time
Kevin: every week would kind of work
Kevin: you dropped it
Brittney: in
Kevin: there
Kevin: he's real
Brittney: too yeah and then we missed like two weeks of that because life is chaos so
Kevin: yeah yeah i i for those that don't know i i i have a newborn he's he's just over five weeks now
Kevin: wow and it's it's it's a lot of it's a lot of uh work mostly mentally for me i mean it's it's
Kevin: worse physically for my girlfriend probably because she has to do all the feeding and the stuff um
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: So basically, I guess, she's taking care of the baby, I'm taking care of her.
Brittney: Yeah, that makes sense.
Brittney: That is the role.
Kevin: Right.
Kevin: For now, at least.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: So, yeah, I've been, I haven't, honestly, I haven't touched any code for like a month.
Kevin: Because I've just been so tired.
Kevin: As you shouldn't,
Brittney: right?
Brittney: Like, you take paternity leave.
Brittney: Right.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that is true.
Kevin: But, you know, I kind of like coding, you
Brittney: know.
Brittney: We all like coding, but there's
Antony: priorities.
Antony: The thing is, I mean, five weeks is a really hard bit.
Antony: Like the first couple of months are just ridiculous.
Antony: I'm glad I don't have to go through that.
Antony: You know, I
Kevin: think another thing is it's our first, right?
Kevin: So I assume as you have more of them, you're kind of just like,
Brittney: eh,
Kevin: it'll work out.
Brittney: I mean, you know what's going to happen.
Brittney: That doesn't make it better the second time.
Kevin: well in terms of like you maybe you don't worry about everything all the time like
Kevin: for me
Brittney: it was a struggle
Kevin: okay all right
Brittney: i mean you do you
Antony: do but you prioritize your worrying
Antony: you prioritize your worrying that's what happens you you worry about a smaller breadth of things
Antony: but you worry in more depth about this
Brittney: anthony do you want to explain for the audience why you have
Brittney: tape on your head?
Antony: Well, no one can see the tape on my head, but
Antony: I had a piece of hair
Brittney: sticking out. We definitely
Brittney: can.
Antony: Well, we can,
Antony: but the audience won't,
Kevin: because we're not recording
Kevin: the video.
Brittney: Oh!
Brittney: I thought we were recording video, so...
Antony: No, no.
Antony: I just
Brittney: let the cat out of the bag.
Antony: There was a piece of
Antony: hair sticking out, and it's gone in.
Antony: I see it worked. See?
Brittney: Editor can cut that out, I guess.
Brittney: It did work. I've been taking
Kevin: a screenshot.
Antony: It did work.
Antony: table screen shut it's gone
Kevin: it's finished
Antony: the hair is back to well it's about to normal
Brittney: yes i
Brittney: changed
Antony: i changed hairdresser as
Kevin: well ah that's the reason for the
Kevin: the hair sticking out though
Brittney: you have a regular hairdresser
Brittney: i used to i
Kevin: used to
Kevin: i actually do as well but anyway should we talk about something oh that's hurting
Kevin: So for those that can't see, Brittany just got a piercing in the ear, I think.
Kevin: Yeah, I got two ear piercings
Brittney: yesterday to match my 12-year-old daughter so we could clean them and hers will not get infected this time.
Brittney: I also have the same piercings on the other side, so it's called a conch and a helix piercing.
Kevin: And then I had headphones on them and it
Brittney: hurt.
Kevin: Yeah, so now you're just wearing one headphone.
Kevin: Well, half of a headphone.
Kevin: Half of a headphone.
Kevin: Pair of headphones?
Antony: Oh, it's not a pair.
Kevin: Right?
Kevin: How
Antony: did you miss the two
Brittney: agents?
Kevin: So in terms of Svelte, what have you guys been up to?
Kevin: Are you working with Svelte?
Kevin: Are you excited?
Kevin: I don't know.
Kevin: I am.
Brittney: I've actually been getting to use Svelte 5 for the first time.
Brittney: Well, not for the first time, but regularly for the first time.
Brittney: And it's been great.
Brittney: brand new
Antony: code base.
Antony: Sounds
Kevin: like fun.
Brittney: It's golden.
Antony: It's interesting that, yeah, you're just using
Antony: Spark 5 and in reality, I guess
Antony: I too am just using Spark 5 now
Antony: because, you know, in the
Antony: real world, you can't move as fast as the core team
Antony: can or the people with hobby projects
Antony: or side projects or whatever else
Antony: they've got. So you end up
Antony: just on a
Kevin: bit of an old lot.
Kevin: I know.
Kevin: Aren't you the CTO of your company?
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: to make money.
Antony: Priority.
Antony: Yeah, I
Brittney: was going to say,
Brittney: you have users
Brittney: and you have to
Kevin: keep things
Brittney: flowing and working.
Brittney: And
Kevin: what better way
Kevin: of using a fast,
Kevin: modern framework
Kevin: that can make
Kevin: the user experience better?
Antony: You know,
Antony: we still have production apps,
Antony: so half of our biggest app
Antony: at Live is still using SAPA.
Brittney: Oh, that's hilarious.
Antony: And it's still fast.
Antony: It's still fast.
Antony: It works, you know.
Antony: But the thing is,
Antony: yeah, we also just started
Antony: using SAP5
Antony: because we hired Puru, which you
Brittney: may have to know.
Brittney: Oh, goodness.
Antony: And so I get him to do Svelte now rather than me, actually.
Antony: But the thing is, one of his main tasks, really, for us
Antony: is to move all the stuff from Saffron to SvelteKit,
Antony: and then it was subgrade from SvelteKit and Svelte4
Antony: to the latest SvelteKit and Svelte5.
Antony: And it wasn't the world's smoothest journey, I'll be honest,
Antony: but we're now on Svelte5, we're in the latest SvelteKit,
Antony: but we still have a bunch of stuff in Sapa, which we are migrating across.
Antony: But it's exciting, yeah, because I mean, I have to admit,
Antony: I was a person who I didn't particularly like the look of runes.
Antony: I remember the first meeting where we started talking about
Antony: what Svelte 5 would be, and I was pretty against the whole idea.
Antony: And I certainly made everyone aware on the call that I wasn't against it.
Antony: And there was this kind of movement, sort of, yeah,
Antony: it doesn't make sense to change everything
Antony: and then a little bit swayed back the other way
Antony: and Rich is like what if this happened, what if this happened
Antony: and him and Dom are kind of discussing
Antony: what this could look like
Antony: and it starts to look a little bit more
Antony: a little bit less felty let's say
Antony: a little bit more like a set of
Antony: imports and
Antony: a set of
Antony: functions
Antony: that you call to make state rather than having
Antony: state kind of implicit in the language
Antony: and I didn't like that so I wasn't excited
Antony: about moving to it. But now I've started using it and I can see and you have to really use it
Antony: to see the value in what's been done. It's like,
Brittney: yeah,
Antony: actually, this is this is actually
Antony: it's objectively better, but I can see how it's more intimidating for a newcomer still.
Antony: So my original fear wasn't unfounded, but certainly
Brittney: I
Antony: can now see advantages.
Brittney: I agree 100%. I think you have to use it to see the benefits of it. But now that I'm using it too,
Brittney: It's like you can see just how much easier some things are and
Brittney: how much better things work.
Brittney: So, yeah, I
Brittney: agree with that.
Brittney: And I
Kevin: was very against
Brittney: it.
Brittney: Yeah, same.
Kevin: I've been working with it for probably like six or seven months now.
Antony: Oh, wow.
Antony: Okay.
Kevin: At like the place I was at before.
Kevin: And I like it.
Kevin: There are just like some stuff that is a bit foot gunny.
Kevin: Like if you're comparing objects in arrays,
Kevin: since it's like a proxy object
Kevin: and then you're comparing it with something else,
Kevin: you have to kind of, what do you call it?
Kevin: Work around that a bit.
Kevin: Because before you could just like compare the objects
Kevin: because they have the same reference,
Kevin: but now they're different references.
Kevin: So it's not really the same object you're comparing
Kevin: if you're like doing a duplication of something.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: And you want to compare maybe like a, what would you call it?
Kevin: Like the default object.
Kevin: And then if you make a change,
Kevin: and then you want to see which objects in an array has changed,
Kevin: something like that.
Kevin: So that's a bit irritating.
Antony: But it's just the nature
Kevin: of proxies.
Antony: Yeah, well, I think one of the things about, you know,
Antony: it's like Java kind of nailed it a long time ago,
Antony: And it's a shame that JavaScript and ES6 didn't follow that pattern if they could.
Antony: But the whole two-string function and the overriding of that function
Antony: to build your own equality model is great.
Antony: And I love that in Java.
Antony: I think it's really good.
Antony: It would be amazing if there was something similar in JavaScript.
Kevin: I'm not familiar with that.
Kevin: What is that?
Antony: Well, if you compare two objects in Java, what it does is it uses...
Antony: It might not be two-string.
Antony: I might have got mixed up here because I learned about it when I was using Groovy,
Antony: but essentially it has a method.
Antony: If you type equals, equals, equals, or the equivalent equals, equals,
Antony: or dot equals on it, what it will do is it first of all calls that method,
Antony: which then generates any makeup of that object that you want for comparison.
Antony: So if it's an object full of all sorts of crazy stuff,
Antony: but actually you want to say something's different if it contains one property,
Antony: which is a number that's different or a Boolean true or false,
Brittney: You
Antony: can make your equals or two string or whatever method it's called.
Antony: Just compare, just return those two.
Speaker 5: So
Antony: that one property.
Antony: And so you can say they're not equal or they are equal
Antony: based on purely what that method returns.
Antony: So you're really comparing the app by that method.
Brittney: And I think
Antony: that'll be, it was great in Groovy.
Antony: It was great in Java.
Antony: I think it would be great in JavaScript or ES6.
Antony: It would fit nicely.
Antony: ESM.
Antony: What are we even calling it nowadays?
Antony: What's it called?
Kevin: ECMAScript.
Antony: Yeah, ECMAScript.
Kevin: I don't know.
Antony: Who knows?
Kevin: You know, JavaScript is owned by Oracle, right?
Brittney: Yeah, yeah.
Brittney: That's
Brittney: true.
Brittney: Right.
Kevin: So you have to be careful here.
Kevin: Might be
Brittney: good soon.
Brittney: Yeah, you became the richest man in the world, like, last week, right?
Kevin: Yeah, right.
Kevin: With the idea.
Antony: They also own Java.
Kevin: Right.
Antony: They own the JVM and made it proprietary.
Antony: But luckily, people forked it and made an open JDK before that.
Antony: Oracle are slightly famous for doing this.
Kevin: They're also slightly famous for being a bit anti...
Kevin: I don't know what you would even call it,
Kevin: but they don't have the best reputation, probably.
Antony: No.
Antony: Anti-not-suing people for no obvious reason.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah.
Kevin: Do you guys want to talk about what's new and Svelte?
Kevin: All
Brittney: this remote function stuff?
Brittney: To be fair, I don't really know what's new and Svelte.
Kevin: Right.
Brittney: And
Kevin: isn't there a
Brittney: show
Brittney: called What's New in Svelte
Brittney: that we do every week?
Antony: There is actually, yes.
Kevin: You can watch that on YouTube.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: No, but there's remote functions
Kevin: and they just came to SvelteKit as well,
Kevin: I think, with SSR support.
Kevin: So now we can actually ditch the load function.
Kevin: Oh, okay.
Kevin: You can tell me about those
Brittney: because I don't know about this.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah. Oh, you haven't seen the remote function stuff?
Brittney: No.
Antony: I haven't used them. I'm obviously aware of them, but I haven't used them.
Antony: Yeah,
Kevin: I haven't had that much time to use them yet either,
Kevin: but I just watched the video that Simon did.
Kevin: I don't know if you've seen it.
Brittney: Oh, I heard about that.
Kevin: He goes through some examples and shows you what you can do.
Kevin: And it looks really nice.
Brittney: It looks really,
Kevin: really nice.
Kevin: Especially if you're working in a situation where you're like in your load function where you're pulling in multiple things.
Kevin: And then you might just want to refresh one of them instead of like running the whole load function.
Kevin: You would just like fetch the specific data.
Kevin: If that makes sense.
Kevin: It's a lot more granular.
Kevin: And it's also like more tied to your component rather than your page.
Kevin: So you can kind of reuse logic on different pages by just reusing the component instead of the load function.
Kevin: Yeah,
Brittney: I
Brittney: would
Kevin: highly recommend watching the video.
Kevin: It's live on our YouTube channel.
Kevin: It's about society.
Kevin: If you haven't seen it, been to the channel, you should go there and check it out.
Kevin: Especially the video.
Kevin: It's very good.
Kevin: But yeah, that's about the amount of knowledge I have about remote functions at the time.
Brittney: I know there are different
Kevin: ones.
Kevin: It's like the query one where you fetch data.
Kevin: There's a command one where you tell the server to do something.
Kevin: And then there's the form one as well, I think.
Kevin: And also a pre-render one, if I remember correctly.
Kevin: So you can fetch data and just pre-render it at build.
Kevin: Or fetch the data at build.
Kevin: push it into time. That sounds really
Brittney: interesting. That's actually what I was going to say earlier
Brittney: is that we have a fairly new code base that we started this year. And we started,
Brittney: I feel like back in April, and we had I had to upgrade to get access to attachments,
Brittney: I wanted to use attachments. And then I'm like, Oh, we are
Brittney: not on
Brittney: the version that I can use that.
Brittney: So it moves so fast. Like, I can't keep up, I actually have to take a break soon just to
Brittney: do upgrades we did a v upgrade last week and
Antony: oh yeah i
Brittney: don't think that broke anything but we'll
Brittney: see
Antony: yeah i i definitely upgraded us to v test from whatever else we're using in one of the monor
Antony: repos that definitely broke things that was a mistake i
Brittney: am i actually started doing all of my
Brittney: testing in storybook i know hepe has
Brittney: done videos and
Brittney: like worked with uh um what's new and spell i
Brittney: think he did one of those too but storybook has come a long way and
Brittney: the testing in it uses
Brittney: v test
Brittney: under the hood so i
Brittney: just write the
Brittney: story and everything just right together and then you also
Brittney: have that visual piece so you can see your test run what step it's
Brittney: on everything's
Brittney: just right there
Brittney: in your story it's really cool nice yeah
Kevin: yeah storybook is like i think we talked about this
Kevin: at Sotsummit, but like
Brittney: I remember
Kevin: when Storybook
Kevin: just came out, and it's just
Kevin: like, honestly, and
Kevin: I...
Brittney: They know this.
Brittney: I think they know this,
Kevin: but
Kevin: the developer experience, complete trash,
Kevin: right?
Brittney: Especially for Spel.
Brittney: You would just run into issues
Kevin: everywhere.
Kevin: Yeah, exactly. But even for
Kevin: like React in the beginning,
Kevin: it was not
Antony: that... It was very heavy.
Antony: It was very heavy as well. And I think
Antony: that, you know,
Antony: It was at the point where Rick, So, and Co, I think, started writing their own Svensha.
Brittney: Yeah, there were, like, lots of different ones for a while.
Brittney: Like, Scott Dominski had one, and there was
Brittney: a VEAT-based one.
Brittney: Yeah,
Kevin: a VEAT book
Brittney: or something.
Brittney: And there were a few.
Kevin: Yeah, but now it's, like, it's all forgiven, because now it's great.
Brittney: Yeah, now it's great.
Kevin: No, but seriously, they've made really good progress.
Kevin: And it is really nice to use.
Brittney: You
Kevin: just have to make sure that your team actually keeps using it.
Kevin: So it
Brittney: doesn't get
Kevin: out of sync.
Kevin: It's just me and one other
Brittney: developer.
Brittney: And I do all the design system stuff.
Brittney: So Storybook and all that stuff is done by me.
Brittney: So I'm the only one.
Brittney: Just make sure
Brittney: I keep my documentation updated.
Brittney: So in case they lay me
Brittney: off like every
Brittney: other company I've worked for.
Brittney: sad but true
Brittney: yeah well no
Kevin: granger didn't lay me off
Brittney: but
Brittney: yeah it is it feels like it's just crazy right now the
Brittney: work place environment with
Kevin: ai like
Brittney: taking everything over and
Kevin: it's just i i read i read
Kevin: about on hacker news there there was a thread about there was a study about how like how much
Kevin: so they defined this as work slop it was work generated by ai that looks
Brittney: like
Kevin: it is good work
Kevin: but is actually bad
Brittney: and it takes apparently
Kevin: it takes up so much time from from other people having
Kevin: to like go through all this like for example like if one person generates work slop then some other
Kevin: receiving person would have to like check that work and make sure that it's good and
apparently
Brittney: that takes
Kevin: a lot of time.
Antony: It takes more time
Antony: than you want to write it
Antony: the first time yourself.
Antony: Exactly.
Antony: Yeah.
Kevin: Especially with the back and forth,
Kevin: right?
Kevin: If you have the AI
Kevin: write some stuff
Kevin: and then someone has to review it,
Kevin: maybe they're reviewing it with AI.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Think about like Copilot
Brittney: suggested first thing
Brittney: on GitHub now.
Kevin: Like every time
Antony: you put a PR in.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: This is exactly how you end up
Antony: with no product.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: But it's
Kevin: like, it's very good.
Kevin: Like I've been working on the, on the News Felt Society website.
Kevin: It's probably going live soon.
Kevin: I'm not going to promise anything
Brittney: like it at Svelte Summit.
Kevin: So, but Kareem just finished fixing a bug.
Kevin: So now, now it's like, we're actually ready to start importing stuff.
Kevin: So it should
Brittney: happen.
Kevin: And I'm actually also hiring someone to, to moderate.
Kevin: So if someone listening to this is interested, the pay won't be that good.
Kevin: you'll you'll have like a lot
Brittney: of fun you get the the pay of the community loving you and thank you
Brittney: exactly yes
Kevin: yes we pay you in what's it called when when people want to pay designers in
Kevin: like eyeballs or something like
Brittney: oh in views yeah yeah
Kevin: yeah no but there will be there there'll be
Kevin: like actual pay but it just won't be like a developer pay right because it's not a developer
Kevin: job it's it's mostly admin work yeah but yeah uh what was i saying oh right yeah with the ai stuff
Kevin: um so i used a lot of cloud code for for the new website and like it's it's very good at doing like
Kevin: the very, very boilerplate-y stuff that I don't want to do myself, that just repeats across
Kevin: multiple pages and stuff like that. I used it to generate a pretty nice admin graphical user
Kevin: interface, so I don't have to use Pocketbase or Firebase or something like that. And it works
Kevin: great um but i that's like hidden away from from the users right it's only like the admins and the
Kevin: editors and the moderators that would be using this gui so for that it's
Brittney: fine and
Kevin: it's fine if
Kevin: there are like a couple of bugs in there because who cares well yeah
Brittney: i've only tried a couple i've
Brittney: i tried chat gpt and it was absolutely awful at anything
Brittney: called related and claude
Brittney: is the first
Brittney: one that I found that will consistently write spelt code it occasionally will do like a dollar
Brittney: sign colon thing or something and I'll just tell it and it will fix it but
Brittney: what I found
Brittney: with Claude
Brittney: is that because it has that Claude.markdown file it can like you can put things in there about your
Brittney: work how you work whatever your system is that you use and it will read through that at the beginning
Brittney: of your conversation and it will remember essentially.
Brittney: And
Brittney: then I've started
Brittney: with like my JIRA tickets.
Brittney: I've made a folder and it makes its own context of markdown files for each ticket.
Brittney: So then
Brittney: I can be like, oh,
Brittney: if I need to pick back workup, I'm like, go refresh your context
Brittney: on this ticket and it will.
Brittney: And then that's helpful for it to just keep like where we're at.
Brittney: And then it can see your entire file system based on like what you give it access to.
Brittney: And
Brittney: because
of that, I think it does a better job than the other ones.
Kevin: Yeah, for sure.
Kevin: Also,
Brittney: I have, sorry, I have the Mac subscription.
Brittney: And I, so I think it's like $100 a month.
Brittney: But I think it's worth it for the time that it saved me.
Brittney: But then I did a workout schedule this week.
Brittney: And I added, it added calendar events to my event.
Brittney: Put on the event, the workout that I needed to do for every day.
Brittney: And like factored in the time, factored in like massage chair at the end.
Brittney: It was,
Kevin: it's been working
Brittney: really well.
Brittney: I like it a lot.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: I remember when AI got big like a couple of years ago, I always wanted it to do stuff like that for me.
Kevin: Like figure my day out, like schedule things when I have time, et
Antony: cetera.
Kevin: But
Antony: yeah.
Antony: It's helpful, yeah.
Kevin: It's helpful.
Kevin: Sorry, I just wanted to mention, like, we were talking about, like, how different LLMs were good at writing Svelte.
Kevin: You mentioned ChatGPT being pretty bad.
Kevin: There's a project, an ongoing project internally.
Kevin: I'm not sure if it's public or not, so maybe I shouldn't talk about this.
Brittney: but there's like a
Kevin: Svelte MCP being worked on that like gives you,
Kevin: gives the LLM feedback on what it writes and just like makes it eventually write
Kevin: correct Svelte 5 code.
Kevin: So that's exciting.
Kevin: And then there's also Svelte Bench that Stanislav Kromov is made that just like
Kevin: tests a bunch of different LLMs and compares them to how Svelte 5 should be written, right?
Kevin: So you get like a percentage score of which LLM is writing the best one.
Kevin: And at the moment, it's Claude Opus 4 and Claude Sonnet 4 that are topping the charts,
Kevin: which kind of makes sense.
Antony: Yeah, not surprising, is it?
Kevin: But then surprising is like after that, there are like two open source Chinese models
Kevin: are up there.
Brittney: And then there's
Brittney: Grot 4 as
Kevin: well.
Brittney: And no thank you to that one as well.
Brittney: Yeah.
Brittney: At
Brittney: least the Chinese
Kevin: ones you can run
Kevin: yourself.
Kevin: You
Brittney: don't have to run it through the servers.
Brittney: I don't want to have my own server. I'm good.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: Totally makes sense.
Brittney: But yeah, I
Kevin: just wanted to mention that.
Brittney: AI has been great.
Brittney: I'm lazy. I like
Antony: lazy things.
Antony: Yeah.
Antony: Well, the way we use AI is we have a thing called Tembo,
Antony: which is a startup that basically
Kevin: reads linear
Antony: tickets.
Antony: Tembo.io.
Brittney: Tembo
Antony: .io.
Antony: You can connect it to various different ticket systems and backlogs,
Antony: and you can go to GitHub or whatever else you use,
Antony: and then basically it can pick up tickets, do
Brittney: the work,
Antony: and then open PRs, which is,
Antony: that's kind of all the workflow I really want from it.
Antony: I'm not going to pretend it's great.
Antony: It's not always great.
Antony: It can do simple things.
Antony: You can automate simple tasks, which is handy.
Antony: It saves you dead getting, you know,
Antony: losing context of what they're working on
Antony: and doing some, like, little patch thing or whatever.
Antony: It sometimes goes crazy.
Antony: I think it uses Claude Under the Hood.
Antony: For some reason, it sometimes goes crazy.
Antony: Does all sorts of mad stuff,
Antony: like regressing dependencies to older versions.
Antony: But it's in a
Brittney: PR, so you can
Antony: review it and say,
Antony: what are you doing?
Antony: What's going on here?
Kevin: Installing is odd and is even.
Antony: Yeah, things like that.
Kevin: Like, seeing
Antony: the presence of libraries
Antony: this within the same monorepo and deciding it should create them all with like with like actual
Antony: code and and package
Kevin: you have to say that this is the wrong approach anthony yeah
Antony: yeah well exactly
Antony: i mean i must be right but yeah so it's it's um it's useful in a sort of confined space should we
Kevin: all right cool what do you guys think should we end it there it's like a first episode teaser for
Kevin: for everyone and then uh i was thinking i would uh invite simon for the next one
Brittney: he mentioned some
Kevin: that he would be interested in coming on and talking about remote functions so
Antony: we can like
Antony: explore
Kevin: that in detail maybe
Antony: we can all learn yeah oh
Kevin: of course we can't forget our two last
Kevin: sections right
Antony: oh yes don't forget our two what
Kevin: did we call them hot takes uh it
Antony: was oh yeah i
Antony: don't know about that one it was it was pics and the other one was um yeah hot takes no it wasn't
Antony: the hot takes it was
Kevin: controversial controversial opinions popular opinions yeah wow
Antony: it's been a
Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I almost wrote hot, unpopular opinions. That's not the one.
Antony: I was going to write hot potatoes.
Antony: Hot, hot potatoes.
Antony: That's another one.
Kevin: Unpopular opinions. Okay.
Kevin: Opinions. All right. I'll go first. You don't have to have one.
Kevin: I'm going to lean in on the work slop thing.
Kevin: AI
Brittney: is not the end
Kevin: -all-be-all of the world, I would say.
Kevin: Sean would probably disagree.
Brittney: He's not
Kevin: here to defend himself.
Kevin: I'm not going to say anything.
Kevin: Say what he would say.
Kevin: But yeah, it's good for some stuff.
Kevin: But I also think like the work slop thing,
Kevin: that is probably a very real thing.
Kevin: And it wastes probably a lot of time.
Kevin: So once we figured that out,
Kevin: maybe it's going to be better.
Kevin: But it all depends on the prompts, right?
Kevin: The people that are asking the AI to do stuff.
Brittney: you need
Kevin: to improve on that part as well
Kevin: so
Brittney: I agree
Kevin: and I
Brittney: don't know if
Brittney: that's a controversial
Brittney: opinion unless you're like
Brittney: the CEO of
Brittney: a company
Brittney: who's just trying to save money with
Brittney: workers but
Brittney: yeah
Brittney: I mean
Brittney: I don't know
Antony: I don't have
Brittney: a controversial opinion
Brittney: go ahead Anthony I know you always have
Brittney: I often
Antony: have
Antony: I didn't really think of one for this one
Brittney: but
Antony: I mean
Antony: Yeah, I think Kev's taken the best one there
Antony: because that is very pertinent right now.
Antony: Very much.
Brittney: That's where you go first.
Brittney: Yeah, it is.
Antony: Wheelhouse, yeah.
Antony: Controversial opinion.
Antony: Oh, I think, right, the controversial opinion I have
Antony: is related really to politics instead.
Brittney: Oh, no.
Brittney: Oh, no.
Brittney: I know.
Antony: Well, it's controversial in a good way, right?
Antony: The fact is that when you have two equally bad governments,
Antony: The only way that you can get the government that you want to win
Antony: or the party that you want to win is by basically finding common ground
Antony: and competing on that.
Antony: Because if you try to beat them by taking the issue that they're championing
Antony: and they're better at it than you are, you're going to lose to
Brittney: them
Antony: with their own arguments.
Antony: So therefore you have to find common ground and then use that common ground
Antony: to differentiate to brand your political party to win.
Antony: And it's very much taken from my pick, actually,
Antony: which I could go to my pick from this,
Brittney: actually.
Brittney: Go for it.
Antony: So my pick is a guy called, and it's really better if you're British,
Antony: but if you're in any way interested in economics or politics
Antony: or anything like that at all, trading, you name it,
Antony: there's a guy called Gary's Economics on YouTube.
Antony: And he is very, very smart.
Antony: So he was the youngest, one of the best traders in the world,
Antony: and also one of the youngest traders in the world,
Antony: working for all the big banks.
Antony: And now he advises banks, but he also does YouTube,
Antony: and basically talks about how actually everything in politics
Antony: is not based on anything about discrimination, race, whatever else.
Antony: It's all based on inequality,
Antony: and it's the inequality divide between the rich and the poor,
Antony: which drives all sorts of resentment inside a population,
Antony: and then drives them to vote and to think in a specific way.
Antony: It's all to do with actually inequality,
Antony: the poor getting poorer and the rich taking everything from the poor.
Antony: So it's worth a watch.
Antony: It's very interesting.
Antony: And he speaks about it in a way that is very much like down to earth.
Antony: It's not, you know, lots of complex terms.
Antony: He's laying it out for you as a layman or layperson would receive that information.
Brittney: Sounds
interesting.
Brittney: um i guess how
Kevin: how would i sorry
Brittney: one second you can go ahead how
Kevin: what what would i call
Kevin: your unpopular opinion anthony find
Antony: my own ground my unpopular opinion is that um
Antony: you can't you can't yeah you can't win a battle by by um fighting with
Antony: like fighting on the same terms, I guess.
Antony: I mean, it's something like that.
Antony: It's
Brittney: basically that you have to find something
Antony: common in order to differentiate.
Antony: Cool.
Kevin: Yeah.
Kevin: All right, Briden, sorry.
Brittney: Oh, no worries.
Brittney: I guess I might have a controversial opinion for somebody.
Brittney: Cats are better than dogs, in my opinion.
Brittney: I
Kevin: guess depending on who you
Brittney: are.
Brittney: That's wrong.
Kevin: That's wrong.
Kevin: 100% true
Kevin: I agree with you
Kevin: and
Brittney: then
Brittney: I guess my pick
Brittney: is going to be
Brittney: um
Brittney: if you like cats
Brittney: and you are like me
Brittney: and think cats
Brittney: are better than dogs
Brittney: find a place
Brittney: that has cats
Brittney: to work from
Brittney: if you can't have cats
Brittney: at
Kevin: home
Kevin: like a cat cafe
Kevin: or something
Brittney: it's
Brittney: yeah
Brittney: that's essentially
Brittney: where I've been working
Kevin: so I got a membership
Brittney: to
Brittney: aww
Brittney: little floof ball
Brittney: you are so cute
Kevin: hold him up again
Brittney: see I love cats
Brittney: this
Kevin: is
Kevin: this is
Kevin: her up again okay
Brittney: screenshot taken this is Bruce
Kevin: yeah that's cute that's a very cute oh I'm hearing
Kevin: a baby screaming
Brittney: yeah maybe
Brittney: I should
Kevin: oh I should I should bring the baby on so you can see him
Kevin: oh you should
Brittney: maybe next week
Kevin: maybe not when he's screaming but
Brittney: yeah all
Kevin: right uh picks so your picks
Kevin: your pick was go to a
Brittney: cat cafe or some other place yes yeah some place with a cat and
Brittney: Anthony
Brittney: scary economics
Kevin: i have i have uh a tv show slow horses oh very very good show first episode of
Kevin: the new season comes out today which is
Brittney: what's it on apple
Kevin: tv plus
Brittney: okay it's
Kevin: about like a i haven't
Brittney: seen that one i heard of yeah
Kevin: it's it's with gary oldman in the as like the lead
Brittney: actor
Kevin: and it's
Kevin: about he basically runs this janky old i don't know what you would call it like a
Brittney: spy in
Kevin: an
Brittney: offshoot
Kevin: of mi6 or something
Brittney: like that oh that sounds interesting and all like the rejects
Kevin: end
Kevin: up there and things happen it's just like fun
Antony: very funny
Brittney: awesome it's
Antony: where where you go and
Antony: they can't really fire you but they basically fire you
Brittney: oh nice i would enjoy that yeah i've been
Brittney: watching star trek
Kevin: star trek there's a new one or are you watching like an old well
Brittney: the one that was
Brittney: out a couple years ago i think it's uh i don't even remember what it was called but it's a
Brittney: the prequel to the original
Kevin: oh there's a prequel to to be honest i am not a star trek uh yeah so
Kevin: like
Brittney: i don't know like captain kirk is on a different ship and like
Antony: all the people
Brittney: kind of
Brittney: get introduced like as yeah so
Antony: an old irc friend recently met captain janeway
Antony: he's got some photos with her in some place in
Brittney: new york next gen right
Antony: which is the one with the ewoks where the ewoks from which star trek that's star wars isn't it
Antony: oh yeah same same thing same thing yeah no
Kevin: but this this is star trek anthony this is star trek
Antony: that's also very
Kevin: very
Antony: insulting to
Kevin: Star Wars fans like myself
Kevin: different
Antony: seasons
Kevin: Star Trek the same as Star Wars
Brittney: oh my god
Antony: Star Wars The Next Generation
Antony: and
Kevin: on that note
Kevin: that's it for this week
Brittney: that's it
Kevin: yeah thank you all for listening
Kevin: I hope you guys enjoyed
Kevin: this as much as I did
Kevin: it was a lot of fun talking to you guys again
Kevin: and I hope we
Kevin: will make this an actual
Kevin: recurring thing.
Kevin: And now Anthony is showing a
Kevin: mug that says, go
Speaker 5: away, I'm coding.
Speaker 5: Go away, I'm coding. That's a very
Speaker 5: old meme, by the way.
Speaker 5: That picture.
Brittney: Classic.
Speaker 5: Alright, goodbye everyone, and we will
Speaker 5: talk to you next week.
Brittney: Bye-bye.
Brittney: next week