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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
So so that's the problem that I've I've been trying to fix. Like, how do you design a feature that is not just an MVP, but an MLP? And, essentially, what that is is the most lovable product. You've probably been there as well. So it's like, what is like for you?
Tyler:Like, what's the difference between like an MVP and something that's actually useful?
Nick:Your MVP is something that barely survives. It's MVP to me, I'd always translate it to We're officially live. We're officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Nick:Alright. So, Tyler, you sent me a message on Slack lately, recently on something you've been working on. And after looking at it, I was like, wow. That's interesting. I wanna hear more, but I think everyone else should hear more about it too.
Nick:And Yeah. Drumroll. Tell me about it. What what what have you been working on?
Tyler:Yeah. So I had a like, the beginning of year, I had this thesis of, like, it's going to be the year of the builder. And and what that just means is that everyone we have these new tools and basically enables everyone to build anything regardless of if you're a developer or not. So that essentially just extends beyond the typical developer roles. I've been talking a lot about it, but I haven't been doing a lot of doing about it.
Tyler:So I what I did was I challenged myself. It's like, hey. You talk a lot about, like, designers are gonna be able to kind of code and and ship things to production. Why not test it out? So I set a goal for myself on a weekend to basically create a create a SaaS product and then push it live by the end of the weekend.
Tyler:And the results were I was able to do it. Congratulations. So it's not a Claude vibe coded thing that just has a URL. It's something that you can actually go to my website, register, log in, play around, and get some value out of, which, like, totally totally shocked me. I'll tell you, it's I used a couple tools because I doubt what was the kind of catalyst for this whole thing is that I I finally downloaded or not I reopened a Cursor.
Tyler:And then I was based on some research, I decided to just have Cursor build it for me. I was like, this is possible. So I had a couple and my tech stack for the weekend was essentially Claude and Cursor. And let me build this idea. So, essentially, for the last, like, maybe six months or so, I've been obsessed with this idea of kind of tracking designs, I guess, value or ROI when it's kind of very hard sometimes to kind of track that value.
Tyler:Because you're part of a team. It's it's not just you. You're playing this collaboration game with PMs, with engineering team, and then it's hard to pinpoint, like, well, what did I do? It's like and that also goes back to, like, how you create a portfolio. Yeah.
Tyler:So what I so what I did was I created a SaaS product, which is essentially the output of a workshop that I like to run at the beginning of projects. And I call it the builder kickoff. And essentially what that is is that you're you're sitting with design, engineering, and product, and you have a new problem that you like to solve. And typically, what happens is that designers, we have this problem. We create this amazing dream design, and then you're like, hey.
Tyler:Let's build it. But then inevitably, when you start your sprint, you present it to engineering, and and then there's this speak of, like, scope. So, like
Nick:Oh, yeah.
Tyler:Essentially so we have this amazing design that we wanna get implemented. But, essentially, what happens is that you're you get hacked to pieces, and you have this smaller version of what was once was an amazing feature. And because you've kind of hacked at it, it doesn't look it it doesn't resemble anything valuable in the end. Mhmm. So so that's the problem that I've I've been trying to fix.
Tyler:Like, how do you design a feature that is not just an MVP, but an MLP? And, essentially, what that is is the most lovable product. You've probably been there as well. So it's like, what is like, for you, like, what's the difference between, like, an MVP and something that's actually useful?
Nick:Yeah. MVP is something that barely survives. It's MVP to me, I'd always translate it to good enough that we do not make anyone angry and that it shows promise or that it could become something useful Mhmm. After multiple versions. So my view of the MVP is actually quite negative.
Nick:Like, it's it's it's it's potential unrealized, basically.
Tyler:Exactly.
Nick:Yeah. And then the MLP is sounds to me like and I know what it is. I've seen people talk about it, but I've not encountered it on a job basically where someone said, like, well, let's do an MLP. You know? So for me, it's purely theoretical, but it sounds to me like it's a few versions beyond an MVP.
Nick:It's an MVP plus, basically.
Tyler:Yes. Exactly. So MVP is essentially it you you can facilitate getting the user's job done so they can use the tool and they can achieve the goal, which is, like, they need to do a thing, and then it gets them there. What an MLP essentially is is, like, they love like, it's a happy experience, and they they wanna try it again. So it's basically a retention retention play.
Tyler:So the feature is great. It's it's at the threshold of being good enough for them to kind of love the experience and then try again. So it's not one of these ship and and like, ah, I can get the job done, but I don't love it. Right. The consequences that they may it makes your product sticky overall, which is what you want.
Tyler:Like, there's there's two essentially parts of a business. It's like the core, what they sign up for, and then getting new business. The the core part is is the retention play.
Nick:Right. That's true. So an MLP sorry if I'm too down into the details now, but let's say it's an onboarding. Like, onboarding is is very crucial to get people on board. Mhmm.
Nick:But it's not something you do more than once. So when you say, like, they want to do it again, is that figuratively, or is that literally, I want to upload another file?
Tyler:Yeah. I think onboarding is a bit different, but we can still apply the same math here. So for example, if you're looking at two different experiences so onboarding is essentially just a series of forms that you wanna sign up that you that facilitate having someone go right. How you would build that as an MVP is just essentially that build a bunch of forms that need to be completed, and then and then you're done. An MLP version of that might include turning on the ability to autofill some of the form fields based on your browser history.
Tyler:So you've seen it on your phone, on your on your desktop. If you click name, it has, like, pre fill with all your saved information. It'll enter your first name, last name, address, email address, and it's all filled. And then it gets me to my destination quicker. So Mhmm.
Tyler:Like, the value add there is quicker to completion because onboarding is, in general, are annoying to fill out, but the value to the business and the user in the end is that because we gather this information, we can make your the the back end of the experience more pleasant because we have some context to who you are and what you need to do within the platform.
Nick:Right. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay.
Nick:So you have I think that's the core of of of our talk. So you've been able to put all the AI hype, all the tool hype, and all the you don't know you don't need Figma anymore type talk into practice. You've been able to make something that works and adds value and makes sense in a weekend, basically.
Tyler:Exactly. So at the end of the weekend, high level my product is is that it takes that workshop recording. So, like, basic basically, in that workshop, you discuss a feature, you define scope immediately. So you're basically shaping you're setting a boundary. So you're setting the scope.
Tyler:Are we willing to invest one one sprint, two sprint, more sprints to this feature
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:At the beginning? And then what that connects to is, like, the business outcome. So, like, we're investing this amount of work or money, and eventually, we're gonna have to break even breakeven and then has to be ROI positive, meaning it's gonna have to make us money over the long term. So we're defining what that time frame is, and then we're discussing and then we're essentially adding tickets to a fig fig jamboard and discussing what features we can add. And then the last stage is what what of which one of these stickies fits into the scope?
Tyler:Right. That's high level, that's what it is. It's basically just defining scope early so that the designer can design the scope only, and then they can make that experience beautiful versus going big and shrinking. Right. It's a very simple exercise, but, like, the the ROI is, like, on speed and also execution.
Tyler:I've done one of these exercises before where I I ran an hour session, and I was able to design the feature in the next day. Super simple. Right. Because I have all the constraints. I have all the constraints from the developer team because they're involved early.
Tyler:I have the business side from the PM, and then I have my UX kind of intuition there. And then in the end, I can execute quickly because we have a design system in place, etcetera.
Nick:Right. Okay. So it's actually it's also helping you. It's already a a tool on your bells.
Tyler:Exactly. Yeah. So that's like the methodology of the platform. So essentially, we're taking that recording Mhmm. Uploading it to the software that I built.
Tyler:And essentially, what it does, it creates almost like a Jira or a Notion, all the tasks that need to be done.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:But instead of being the traditional project management tool, it's gamified a bit. So instead of the value or, like, the what you do in a typical project management tool is just move things along the different columns. It's backlog. It's in progress. It's in review.
Tyler:It's complete. Yeah. And the and the carrot at the end of the stick is basically just the complete column.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:So I thought to myself, what would be or just what would make this experience a bit more engaging? And my thought was, what if I associated a value, a monetary value to to the project and also to the task? So as you move things along those different verticals, if I put something to complete, I get to see how much ROI or money I've generated by completing that task.
Nick:Right.
Tyler:So imagine the task the the project is create a landing page. And then the tasks are do the design, do the copy, do the development piece. $10 divided into $4.25, 25, 25. I've I've then been gamified to see the value of my of my my tasks. And then addition to that, I have a little analytics dashboard that basically shows you how many how much revenue you've generated over the last month or couple months.
Nick:Nice.
Tyler:So that's like at the core of ideas, basically, just tracking your value. But I'm starting with the persona of the product designer, and the idea is just like, I wanna know what my impact is. Like, how much business impact am I having on the task that I'm completing?
Nick:Yeah. I mentioned that being useful at the end of the of the year for your review and your salary increase negotiation. I mean, you can just pull up Tyler's dashboard. Like, look at this. Look at this dashboard.
Nick:I've generated x amount of revenue. Mhmm. You know, it helps you in your negotiations or contract talks even.
Tyler:Exactly. I I think I was looking at it as for two personas. One is the in house person, but what it might be more valuable to the freelancer as well. So, generally, when you're taking up contracts, you're doing work. But if you're able to track it using the software, you're able to show clear ROI to the to the to the business or the person that's hiring you.
Tyler:Like, this is what we this is what we did, and I've documented it.
Nick:Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course. I mean, that's especially as a freelancer, it's very useful.
Nick:Practical example is that usually, what I'm noticing now and what I'm starting today also for for a new project is you think something let's say something takes six months. You know it takes six months, but because you're new, like, you knew you need to build that connection between yourself and the client, you know, trust and proof, basically, that you can do the job. So they're not paying you for six months right away. They're paying you for one month. Yeah.
Nick:So in in that first month as a freelancer, you really have to show your value, you know, show you that it's worth hiring you for the remaining five. And so far, I'm I'm going by Gus. Like, you know, I'm I'm really listening to the the problems that they they being the client that they are experiencing and really making sure that it's, you know, the thing I'm designing in the first month that it's better better looking or better feeling, and then you just have to trust your gut that it's also what they feel in their gut, you know, where there are no numbers involved. You know? You run the risk of them saying at the end of the month, yeah.
Nick:Yeah. It's all good and nice, and but I'm not feeling it. You know? And that's a very sucky thing to hear. Like, I'm not feeling it.
Nick:If you have some sort of number from a dashboard or ROI or or anything more specific, I think it really helps as a freelancer to survive and and get the rest of the deal. So, yeah, I I think it sounds very promising what you're making.
Tyler:Yeah. Because I think, like, to that point, like, to close the loop, it's essentially just once you've launched something is to check what it actually did for the business. Did it increase conversions? Did it generate x outcome? And that's what I've I've I've kind of included in the dashboard.
Tyler:So you have your essentially, when you create the task, I've created a a model that is trained on, like, the values for different types of tasks, but it's an estimated value. But, like, once you've kind of completed the project, there's an input at the very bottom for what actually happened. So, like, the the flow facilitates tracking the project goal and then the actual outcome so you can properly use the tool, which trains like, I'm trying to train designers to kind of think in, like, when we do work, we have to validate that it did a thing so that we can so we're facilitating that great experience between, like, designer and the business to see to show our value and that they know what value that we're giving in a monetary sense. Because that's like at the end of the day, that's that's all a business or a CEO cares about. Are we generating money from the value that we're delivering to our our clients?
Nick:Yeah. Did it make sense to hire this person?
Tyler:In the end?
Nick:So you're you're saying training designers does make me think about something you've shown me recently about a workshop I think that you're giving, and now this tool is also aimed at the workshops. But you are teaching a group of designers how to do your way of working. Right? And I think the tool fits there.
Tyler:Yes. If I'm thinking about the funnel, because I'm always thinking about the funnel, that's how if I were to this is essentially just like a something something that I'm playing with. That's fun. It's not to say that I'm leaving my job tomorrow to do it, but I think I just wanted to test theory. But I'm thinking about the funnel of how how I'm and I'm gonna be kind of documenting this over the next kind of year to see just as a fun project to show.
Tyler:But, essentially, the funnel is you would run the workshop, which is teaching people how to run that facilitation and build their workshop where you're getting everyone involved. And then I would train them on on doing that, and the upsell would be to to subscribe to the application to take the output of that conversation and track the project over time.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, I mentioned you'll fine tune and improve this tool as you go and as you discover more things. Of course. Yeah. So now, you know, when this comes out, it's it's that's, I think, early, like, April.
Nick:But are you are you doing any type of of workshops? And when you're saying that you're documenting this, like, where can people read or see more about this or even participate in it?
Tyler:Yeah. So I am so, like, the product is live now. You can register. It's clunky, but it works at sassifyos.com. You You can log in and register.
Tyler:But to follow the journey, I basically I'm getting a lot of feedback from my newsletter lately that this is the type of content that they wanna see, which is like Right. What kind of pushed me in this direction. So if you subscribe to my little newsletter, I'm gonna be on a weekly basis documenting the progress of, like, billing the SaaS product. And then you can be because my newsletter is tailored to designers, you can reach out to me, and I can user test this offer with you.
Nick:Nice. So and subscribing to the newsletter, that's the same website I mentioned. There's probably a call to action somewhere at the top or the bottom.
Tyler:Yes. So there is a newsletter link at the in the Oh, okay. In the main nav.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a great way to I mean, let's say you're an entry level designer, and you're learning, and you're curious about, like, modern way of working as a designer. I think it's a very smart thing to get as close as you can to this because it's a chance to work with you, a seasoned designer, you know, learn about the the, you know, the day to day, basically. I think it will be very useful for anyone who's listening to to take a look there and and participate.
Tyler:Yeah. I think I just wanna document the journey of like, again, like, I'm really pushing like, the market has changed. There's a lot of designers looking for work. I think there's a big opportunity for designers to be amazing founders one day. So this is just the idea that I wanna push forward.
Tyler:So I just wanna be transparent, show how you might do it to get the ball rolling, to get more designers to start their own thing.
Nick:Yeah. I think so. I think that's something more people are saying, and I I I think I agree because we have this different way of looking at it, but then we use have the the tech skill gap, basically. But then with these tools, like, can put something together in a weekend. Imagine how more much more refined and more powerful it is if you would keep working on it for, like, 10 more weekends.
Tyler:You know?
Nick:You you you used to need a a technical cofounder for it. I think you can now get it to some sort of validation level where you can see that a product that there's a need for it. Mhmm. And then you go for developer or security people. You know?
Nick:So so, yeah, design founded companies. I think that makes a lot of sense. But then again, I'm a designer. So, of course, I'm team designer.
Tyler:Of course. Yeah. And it's very it's easier than you think. Like, cursor, you don't have to write a stitch of code. You're using the prompting tool.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And then you can just talk to it and have it built based on recommendations. Funny enough, I actually used Claude code to user test or run usability studies on my actual application, which is which is fun. So Chrome has a cloud extension that'll allows you to kind of pop open a side nav and then ask it to do stuff. You can actually do stuff on your behalf if you wanted to. Yeah.
Tyler:But essentially, every once in a while, I'm like, okay. Run a pretend I added a prompt. Pretend you're a principal product designer running a usability study, doing accessibility, etcetera. Go. And then it did its thing and navigated my app on my behalf while I was doing other things.
Tyler:And then it gave me a report of all the things that I'll have to fix, which was the input to cursor to fix. Like, hey, found this stuff. Fix it. Go. There's a validation step in between, but essentially, like Yeah.
Tyler:That cycle works really well.
Nick:How did it do? What did the reef the the AI review do according to your design standards?
Tyler:I did a pretty decent job. Like, I found some things that it missed, obviously. Like, there was a point where the app was missing. The buttons were disappearing, and it didn't catch it because, obviously, it can't catch what it can't see. But it does a pretty decent job because it has access to, like, the the code because it does inspect element, and then it has access to CSS.
Tyler:Like, it it does a really decent job.
Nick:Okay. Okay. Interesting. You know? So probably a whole different discussion, you know, like artificial user testing.
Nick:Testing without users, does it make sense? Yes or no? I know some people who are very outspoken about it. But, anyway, like so so what's next for your your weekend tool? Like, because I imagine there's much more in the pipeline.
Tyler:Yeah. I think next step for me is to do I mean, to be fair, next week, I'm going on vacation, so nothing's happening this weekend.
Nick:If I close on my phone
Tyler:Yeah. I'd I'd no. I'm not bringing my laptop or technology on vacation. I am just fully disconnecting. But next step for me is I'm going to run some user tests.
Tyler:So I'll probably reach out to some people, do some recording. I'm gonna be again, I will be documenting this whole process. So documenting those user tests and then following, like, the typical, like, product development cycle. I'll just Yeah. User test, get some feedback, see what I improve, see what next feature you have to roll out, and improve and iterate.
Tyler:That's essentially it.
Nick:What what's your mission here for this particular tool? Like, is it just something for yourself and writing about it as a way to, you know, get your thoughts out of into the world, or do you think this could be some sort of, you know, revenue for you? Like like, a nice little bonus aside? Or
Tyler:I think it could. I I think it definitely could. I think outside of, like, me documenting and and trying to create generate revenue, I think it's, like, a really I think it's a a really powerful tool that's probably top of mind or be use pretty useful now. Like, tools are are are are generating code or generating features very quickly and cheaply. My think what's becoming more important is the discovery phase and that kind of earlier on stage of, like, crafting ideas and strategy, and this tool facilitates that.
Nick:Right. That makes sense. I mean, I I just think this is a wonderful time to to be in as a designer. Like, you you have this this wait a minute moment. You know?
Nick:I could have a tool here that really helps me. I'm doing repetitive work. What if I had this tool? You can start a brainstorm session with your, you know, agent of choice, and before you know it, you can you have something that works within a weekend. I mean, isn't that great?
Tyler:It is. And then the the big insight for me is that the design part was the hardest part to do. Yeah. So, like, it was built in, like, Tailwind React type TypeScript. Nice.
Tyler:I was really focused on, like, the core functionality. And then I was like, oh, I I came to this moment. How do I make this pretty?
Nick:Yeah. We yeah. We're We're safe.
Tyler:It it definitely cannot do that because I that was one of my prompts, make it pretty. But a bit more steps to that, but it really couldn't do it. Yeah. So I saw a clear gap of, like, it can create amazing things that are, like, functionally very impressive. Mhmm.
Tyler:But the UX and, like, the aesthetic part is the hardest. It was the hardest part for me.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I feel like one of those LinkedIn gurus. I really want to shout about taste now.
Tyler:You should.
Nick:Yeah. I I do not have the visual websites available that really fit today's styling, I think. And not saying that in a self pity way, just more observing. Like, I have not something following design trends, I would say.
Tyler:I think that's probably the best. Like, a lot of sites are looking or sites, apps, they're all looking the same because they follow the
Nick:same Yeah.
Tyler:Framework, aesthetics. Like Yeah. Again, design is a differentiator. If it looks different, then it'll it'll stop the person to take a look.
Nick:True. It's a classic design theory. You know, you have to do something unexpected. Like, really, though, makes me think about thirteen years ago when I had a design internship back in university. Like, my you get assigned a very senior colleague at the company that's your, like, your mentor.
Nick:You know? And I was in luck. I had a 50 mentor with twenty or thirty years of experience, and he taught me so much. But then one of the the key things I still remember is I had to design a lead magnet page, and then there you you would show the visual of the lead magnet, the document. Mhmm.
Nick:And just put it on the page. And he was like, no. No. Just rotate it slightly. You know?
Nick:It's not something you expect. Everything's straight, and then that thing is slightly off. And then that makes people go like, and then they pay attention because it's not what their mind, you know, fills in just before they see it. Mhmm. And then he he twisted the paper corner a little bit also in Photoshop still.
Nick:So, yeah, that's true, what you're saying. Made me think of a very inspiring mentor I had, like, in the really early days of my career.
Tyler:That's a powerful yeah. Those those small tricks that you learned really are powerful thing. But I had similar thing.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:I one of my mentors, when I first started, was an SEO guy, which Really? Was like which was a really interesting like, I was trying to do design stuff, and he's like, this is this is how you optimize a page for for SEO. This is how you would place this thing for highest conversion, which is, like, probably very similar to you. Like, those small little tricks, like, carry forward and still useful today.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. It's very interesting how some people can just make in one sentence, they make a a big difference in your career, basically.
Nick:Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to all the updates you have on your tool. And just, again, a reminder for people listening that they can follow all about it on on your website. What was it again?
Tyler:Yeah. It's sasafyos.com. So that's saasifyo
Nick:That's that's I'll memorize it. I will put it in the the show notes and description and all that It's
Tyler:Or you just follow me on LinkedIn as well. It's same difference.
Nick:Same difference. I like it. Yeah. So not too self promoting this, because I really think it's useful. I'm hyped for it at least.
Tyler:Yeah. I think the main goal for me is not it's not to generate revenue. It's just if I can push to more designers to kinda start building their own things
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:That's what I'd love to see. Like, you have the Yeah. You have great product and design knowledge because you're able to now build things like the world is yours.
Nick:Yeah. I think so too. I'm doing a ton of it on my own as well. It helped me automate stuff, but that's probably for another episode. Talking about another episodes, I think the next, like, two or three probably, because we have a schedule, I think really tie into this, you know, because we're talking about building tools and then next time we're going to talk about why tools do not matter.
Nick:So that's quite quite the of this yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's all over the place, but still it makes a lot of sense.
Nick:Yeah. I'm not going to tease beyond that. You have to listen next time to No. Here Love it. The teaser for after the teaser.
Tyler:Inception. Love it.
Nick:Yeah. Exactly.
Tyler:Till next episode then. That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players. And