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Live Lead Last is a weekly podcast hosted by leadership coach, nonprofit director, and entrepreneur James Duvall. Designed for growth-minded leaders, this show helps you live by design, lead with purpose, and leave a legacy that lasts.
Through honest conversations, practical tools, and real-life stories, James equips leaders to develop strong roots, sustainable influence, and lasting impact — both personally and professionally. Whether you're leading a team, a business, a ministry, or a family, this podcast will help you become the kind of leader others want to follow.
Dave Kush: I think early on, I, I would've really appreciated if someone would've told me how big of a jerk I was. Yeah, I was a good, I'll tell you thanks. And I've always got room to grow. I, I feel like even back then, I was a pretty good husband, pretty good dad, pretty good boss, pretty good coworker, team member.
But you know, I have a, I had a lot of room to grow
James: Welcome to the Live Lead last podcast. Our goal is to help you live with intention, lead with integrity, and leave a legacy that matters. I'm your host, James Deval, and I'm so glad you're here today.
Hey, let me ask you, have you ever felt stuck or outta rhythm in your leadership? If so, I wanna personally invite you to take advantage of the five day leadership reset to help you refocus your priorities, re-engage your purpose, and lead with clarity. It's [00:01:00] totally free, and you can get it today@livelylast.com slash reset.
Now onto today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's absolutely foundational for leadership in 2025. Relational intelligence. as more teams struggle with burnout, low engagement and misalignment. The best leaders aren't just getting results, they're getting real, and that starts with self-awareness, trust, and presence.
My guest today is my good friend Dave Kush, someone I've known for over 20 years and a leader I deeply respect, Dave brings over three decades of experience leading teams in both the marketplace and ministry. He's a former COO in the land development industry, and he's spent the last 18 years building churches and developing leaders from the inside out
with certifications and emotional intelligence, SHRM, Myers-Briggs and Giant, Dave now equips leaders through his organization framework planning, helping teams move from dysfunction to high performance. In this conversation, you'll hear Dave's personal journey from high [00:02:00] capacity to high intention why Success without health is failure in disguise and how leaders can become the kind of people others actually wanna follow. Let's jump into the conversation.
Dave, man, it's so great to actually have you in my office to do a live
Dave Kush: conversation. Thanks
James: for being on the
Dave Kush: podcast. Oh man. It is a great honor to be here with you, my friend, and a great leader. So this is great.
James: Awesome. So let's start by telling us a little bit about your background. What led you to the work you're doing today?
Dave Kush: Yeah, wow. First generation American. So English growing up was actually my second language. My parents were born in Russia and Ukraine, and both families, uh, my parents actually grew up as kids. In refugee camps in, oh wow. Western Europe, right after World War ii. So when they got over here, they came, both families came with nothing.
And my parents met each other when they were teenagers. So I'm the first one born in this country. And really hard work and achievement was their, their rule. I mean, this is, this is what they did and this is how I [00:03:00] learned to grow up and, and survive. And that's all I knew. So I was the first to graduate college in my.
Family. And, uh, that was, that was a big thing for everyone. I joined a Fortune 500 company outta college and then came down here to Florida, got into the home building business with accounting, finance, land development, construction management. So the, the background of growing up like that in, as a first generation American, I, I was really hard driven and I was a hard driver myself.
So I was, uh, really kind of too busy with work. I mean, that's, that's, that's what it was all about to, to really be present with my wife, my kids. I was, was always preoccupied. I think I was a pretty good dad, pretty good husband, but still very preoccupied, never really fully present, so I could always have room for growth and all of that.
So. And then I was in construction for about 15 years running companies and then finally shifted over to working for a church. Yeah. And uh, that was a huge [00:04:00] shift for me mindset wise and even self-awareness. I learned a lot of lessons before I left construction, and then I learned even more lessons, you know, coming into church world, nonprofit world.
So still did construction finance and got into ministry. Now, last seven years is, has been human resources leadership development, doing a, a lot of development of staff and pastors. So, you know, and through all that, getting certified with, uh, shrm, it's a HR group and EQI, emotional intelligence assessments, certified coach, Myers-Briggs Life Planning, and then Giant Five Voices.
Mm-hmm. Certified. So that's, you know, great tool and one of one of my primary tools right now. But. You know, I'm driven to help other leaders. Yeah. Because of all of my background and experience, I want to see other leaders become better. And so I want them to learn from my mistakes and some of the shortcomings I've [00:05:00] seen in others.
Yeah. You know, hopefully I can pass that along and really help people grow and develop to be better leaders.
James: That's awesome. And we've known each other for, you know, 20 years and so it's been a real privilege, you know, honor on this side to kind of watch your growth and development. Be on the journey with you.
You know, our kids have grown up together or you know, we've done some crazy things together. So the kind of watch that journey. Yeah. Even as you stepped out of the construction space into the church space was, yeah. Was really cool. Was there a moment that you realized there was maybe something missing and maybe about leadership?
Maybe how most leaders, like approach leadership mm-hmm. And their teams. When did you start feeling like something was off?
Dave Kush: I think. From the very start, even in the Fortune 500 company, and then through all the groups I was with and teams, I actually saw some really great examples of bad leadership and uh, you know, those domineering, those self-serving positional leaders.
At the same time, I also had the [00:06:00] privilege of working for and with some really great role models. Mm-hmm. So you had these, these are the leaders that really challenged me, encouraged me to become better. Uh, these were the servant leaders that I, I really took notice of. So when I was asked to take charge and, and look after and run a company with a whole team, you know, I had a choice to make.
Do I follow the domineering boss side of things or do I follow the, the group that's, you know, challenging and encouraging and I, I chose that, you know, the, the challenging, encouraging route. But the problem was I still wasn't self-aware, didn't have the right tools, and really hadn't grown and developed as a leader yet.
So even though I had a lot of good examples, I don't know that I had a lot of good practice in how to be a great leader. So, and I think one of the things that I noticed missing in myself was I was effective. I mean, we, we took this company. That I was asked to to run. It was [00:07:00] first year. It was $2 million in sales.
We built it in five years. It grew from 2 million to 20 million. Wow. High stress. So what I'm saying is the team was really effective. We were effective as a team. But what I realized too, was one of my shortcomings is I'm a rugged individualist by nature. That's my tendency is to just do everything myself.
Get impatient with people. And so that came out, you know, and stress. Stress can bring out and highlight the biggest weaknesses in a leader. Yeah. And that's what it did with me. So when you have high growth like that, you, you can be effective, but if you're not healthy, you're not a great team.
James: Yeah.
Dave Kush: And so I became, from that point on, I really became intentional about developing, developing myself.
So I've got this analogy. I, I was age 38. This was getting close to the time when I was finishing that, that whole season went to a doctor. And got blood test.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: And the doctor came back after the blood test, came back and he says, Hey, I got good news and bad news. [00:08:00] Good news is your, your bad cholesterol is really low.
Yeah. Here's the bad news. Your good cholesterol is also too low.
James: Yeah.
Dave Kush: And I said, well, okay, great. So just gimme, you know, the, the diet, the food that I need to eat to, to fix that. He's like, no, no, no. That doesn't get fixed with diet. That's actually exercise. You gotta be intentional. Like, okay, so if I run like once a week, he goes, no, I, you need to start running like every day to start building up your good cholesterol.
So I realized at that point, and that was the analogy I would make, is you could actually be doing nothing egregiously wrong. You could be not making any huge mistakes, but if you're not intentional about the good stuff, putting, building good practices, good habits into your life, you could still be unhealthy.
Yeah. So for me, I knew I had to become intentional about, you know, reading, getting coaching, and just being intentional about developing who I am as a leader. So that's really
James: [00:09:00] good. Yeah. Yeah. I was just with my network group today and we were talking about, I actually shared the thought that, you know, the truth is most employees don't leave jobs.
They, they leave bad bosses. Right. Exactly. Right. And so many leaders don't actually do that hard work of developing themselves. So, yeah, it's such a great, great piece. Mm-hmm. Before I ask the next question, just be careful on tapping on the Oh yeah, no worries. So, yeah, so it's, it is really good that we're like developing ourselves and reading and getting coaching, but, so what was the big shift in your own leadership?
Like, what did, what shifted for you?
Dave Kush: I think early on, I, I would've really appreciated if someone would've told me how big of a jerk I was. Yeah, I was a good, I'll tell you thanks. And I've always got room to grow. I, I feel like even back then, I was a pretty good husband, pretty good dad, pretty good boss, pretty good coworker, team member.
But you know, I have a, I had a lot of [00:10:00] room to grow and, and like I mentioned before, the stress. Actually highlighted a lot of the, the shortcomings and, and brought out my bad unhealthy tendencies. So I think the one thing that I really realized about myself was I needed to be fully present
James: mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: In the here and now.
I think when I started turning like 40, 42, I was like, I, I really am not good at this.
James: Mm.
Dave Kush: Not present. I, I can become a better listener as a leader. And that was a huge blind spot for me when I realized how bad I was as a listener and wasn't ever present. It, it, it made a huge shift, a big turn for my leadership.
James: Yeah, it's really good. And I think, you know, I wanna get into a little bit later and maybe some of those lessons that you learned about listening mm-hmm. Because so many leaders are bad at listening. Mm-hmm. But you've been building teams now for over 30 years, like. Talk to us about what makes team successful in your perspective.
Dave Kush: Yeah. [00:11:00] Successful is a tricky word, right? Because you can see success. Like I mentioned before, you know, we had high growth. We went from 2 million to 20 million, and so we were, we had, we had success, but I don't know that we were successful as a team. I think there's two components to being su successful.
If you are a healthy. Effective team. Mm-hmm. You, you have to really have both of those because if you're, if you see success, but you're not healthy, you're just gonna have a revolving door with your team, like you said. Mm-hmm. You know, people leave bad managers. So those two components are, are huge. I think another component here is trust.
So critical and I, you know, this is probably one of the most important components for a team, is establishing solid trust in a team and communication. How does a team communicate with its with, with themselves, uh, especially when they're dealing with conflict. Mm-hmm. And they gotta deal with conflict in a healthy way.
So if they're not communicating, uh, they need to get better [00:12:00] at that. And then alignment. You know, you and I, we cycle, and I think early on when we started biking together, there was this, we had to learn how to communicate with each other. Mm-hmm. We had to learn to trust each other. Right, right. Because we were riding so close within inches of each other's wheels.
But I could be riding really close to you, trust you communicate well. But if I'm not aligned, I'm not getting the full benefit of, you know, we draft off each other for wind purposes. Yeah. And staying efficient in riding. But so, and that's the same with the team. If the team's not in alignment with purposes and goals, you know, it's, it's, it's not gonna be as successful as it as it can be.
So,
James: yeah. I also think about, you know, Patrick Lencia only talks about teams should be smart and healthy. Yes. So there's that idea of what you're saying, you know, healthy and effective and. We know that so many organizations, you know, just working with Giant, that so many organizations are driven by alignment and execution, but don't spend enough [00:13:00] time on that healthy relational trust side of of pieces.
And I love that analogy of a cycling. I was also thinking about alignment. When I think about alignment, I think about. A car that's outta alignment, you're constantly fighting to keep it going in the right direction. Right. It's a great picture. Yeah. And, and so that, you know, having a aligned purpose and goals is so good.
So recently you started a company called Framework. Mm-hmm. Planning. Mm-hmm. So is it Framework? Framework planning. Right. Framework
Dave Kush: Planning. Okay. Call it framework.
James: Lemme start that again. Yep. So recently you just started a new company called Framework Planning. Mm-hmm. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Dave Kush: Yeah. I really wanna help leaders avoid my past mistakes and missed opportunities. I saw really have a, a burning desire to get into the business world, work with leaders, work with teams in businesses that are, are struggling with some problems. You know, some, we know that a lot of teams, most teams that take a team performance assessment mm-hmm.
That we, we [00:14:00] use. The data shows that most teams are operating at about 60%. Mm-hmm. Of their capacity. 60% is miserable. So what does that look like? It looks like ineffective communication. It looks like low trust work relationships. Teams are not aligned. Subpar execution. Overextended capacity, which, you know, stops growth, right?
It's a, it's a ceiling. So for me, another analogy would be our house when we moved in eight years ago and it needed a lot of renovation. There was a lot of the house that we actually couldn't use, and so we started remodeling it and. There was, you know, about 60% usable space. Mm-hmm. So we're here we are, we're we're paying full price for this house.
Yeah. And we're only getting 60% of benefit outta this house. So what do we need to do? We needed to bring in the right tools and the right materials to actually get it to where we, we could increase the capacity. And now we have full use of the house after putting those tools and, and materials in into place.
So you need to [00:15:00] increase capacity as a team. And when our data's showing most teams are at 60%, there's obviously a huge need to to improve that.
James: Yeah. I love that analogy of the house and, and knowing that we are neighbors, knowing what the house looked like eight years ago and what it looks like now. You can, you can see the positive effect when you move from 60% to a hundred percent or towards a hundred percent.
Yeah. I know you guys are still, you know, making it changes so forth. Bonus work. Yep. But the improvement, we had the right tools and the right process. Mm-hmm. The right people in place. So, so talk to us about what exactly you do with framework. How does it work?
Dave Kush: Yeah. So we help very simply, we help organizations build healthy culture and high performing teams.
If I click down on that, what does that mean? Uh, we do team workshops very practically. These team, these team workshops, uh, build high engagement. We use tech tools, online tools for, for helping the teams. And then we also do individual coaching. For, for executives and team members that, that, that [00:16:00] need additional work and one-on-one time.
And then we also, one of my heart's passion is, is really to develop a leader framework for organizational development. So that, that is a key for a lot of companies to, to put in some sort of leadership development framework so their team actually understands how to develop. And then coming this winter, we're actually putting together some exciting new things.
Where teams from across, or individuals from across the country can sign up for retreats. Mm-hmm. So we got team retreats and individual retreats in Florida coming January through March. That's awesome. So we're been posting some available dates here. That's
James: awesome. So how is what you do in framework different than traditional leadership consulting or team building?
Dave Kush: I really think there's a lot of great leadership consulting and team building out there. We're, you know, there's so much work to be done with, with all the teams that, that we see. But I'd say if I were to compare it [00:17:00] to traditional leadership development, that has typically been a lot of lecture.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: And less engagement and interaction. So we're, we really work with less lecture, more team engagement, more interaction during our, our workshops and, and one-on-ones. And then it's really less about achieving goals as a, as an individual or as a team, and more about becoming a leader that's worth following and a team that people actually wanna be part of.
Yeah. Because again, you can be effective, but if you're not healthy, that's gonna change the dynamic. And so, uh, you know, the leadership tools that, that we, uh, use really take these approaches to the next level. Yeah. And, and the tools. Some the visual tools, practical tools are, are things that a leader can turn around the same day and use with their team, will use with another individual.
So yeah, that's awesome. Really effective. I don't know
James: where I heard it just recently. It may have been our friend Jeremy Ache who [00:18:00] said that he was talking about the transition of what's happening in leadership development, where it's gone from inspirational to transformational. Mm-hmm. And I think that's really the heart of what you're doing with framework, but.
I think he said, if I remember right, like inspiration without application is just entertainment.
Dave Kush: Yeah, it is. And I, and I think we, you know, we see a lot of events still, and a lot of these events are great. I grew up going to these events. Mm-hmm. You know, half day seminars or leadership development. But you walk away, you have a ton of notes and a lot of fill in the blanks.
Mm-hmm. And not a lot of tools to actually put into play.
James: Yeah. Uh,
Dave Kush: these are great tools for, for mindset building. But then when you talk about actually getting out of a conference center's, four walls and getting into a business's four walls, getting to where they're actually doing the work themselves.
It's, it becomes more effective because it's more applicable. Yeah. And relatable to them
James: and you, and you just have that nature that you're not taking the whole organization to a conference usually, [00:19:00] you know? Right. And so how do you pass on information across the corporation where. I like, you know, this idea of organizational development system or, or a way to mm-hmm.
Get it culturally into the organization so that everybody gets the information and can, can thrive in it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's true. So what your core concepts is this idea of relational intelligence. Mm-hmm. So can you talk to us a little bit about what, how you see relational intelligence? What does that look like?
Dave Kush: Yeah. When I was growing up. The buzzword was IQ and we took a IQ test mm-hmm. In school and mm-hmm. I flunked all of them. Yeah. I mean, these, these were weird because, you know, they, they measured how intelligent you are compared to everybody else. Mm-hmm. That therefore made you a better person. And then we got into the nineties and the new term and the new study showed emotional intelligence that was, was actually more important than iq.
You know, do you, do you know what's going [00:20:00] on inside you? Do you know how to manage your emotions? Do you know how to manage your relationships with others? And so taking, taking all of that, but really now relational intelligence is, is really becoming self-aware as an individual became, becoming secure and confident as a leader.
And then others aware, you know, being able to connect with others in a, in a, in a great way. And. Very important way. And then the ability to build trust and work more effectively with others. So I think that ability to, to build trust and work more effectively is, is where the relational intelligence side comes in.
James: Yeah, that's good. So both of us use a tool called Five Voices. Yeah. As a primary tool. And I'd love to just hear your thoughts on. On Voices, the Five Voices Tool and how you would communicate that, helping people understand their, their voice.
Dave Kush: So, and both you and I know a lot of other tools, like [00:21:00] some great tools, Enneagram, I've learned a lot through that.
I'm a three, helpless three and, uh, you know, at Briggs, I'm A-E-N-T-P, so I understand what that means. I feel like the five voices, when I started to understand it better. I was like, okay, pioneer connector. What does that mean for me? I started reading it and I was like, oh my goodness, this is, this is me.
I'm looking, and it's a, it's a great lens to understand how to see other people. Mm-hmm. But actually for me, more importantly, at the front end of it was a mirror. It's like, okay, this is, this is who I am. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's not so much that an assessment puts you in a box and tells you exactly who you are and what you're.
Predicting what you're going to do or how you're gonna act. But it is a predisposition as a person, as a leader, your leadership voice, what is your, what are your natural tendencies, your natural wiring. And so for me, when I talk about the Five voices, I talk about how important it is to see it as a mirror for understanding [00:22:00] yourself first and then using it as a lens.
Mm-hmm. To look through when you're looking at other people and working with other people. So understanding your, your, your natural wiring, your strengths, and then your tendencies. Uh, you know, when stress hits, what are your natural tendencies? What, how did you just blow something up? Why did that happen?
How can you fix that? So we talk a lot about, you know, reflection and, and improvement.
James: Yep. So there's five voices, pioneer, connector, guardian. Creative and nurtured. What's your voice? Pioneer connector. Okay. And how does that play out in, in your leadership?
Dave Kush: Yeah, it's been fun because I didn't realize, you know, the termonology, when you get under stress or the weapon system of a, of a pioneer Uhhuh is a grenade launcher.
Uhhuh. You know, and you say when you're sitting in a meeting or you're sitting at home and or you're dealing with three kids that are, that are, you know, screaming at each other. How does that grenade launcher, you know, start to work? As a parent, as a husband, as a coworker, as a [00:23:00] boss. So I've gotta be very, very aware of some of the tendencies of a pioneer.
And a pioneer connector would be my second. So everybody's really made up of all five voices. Yeah. And everyone's got a voice order. Yeah. And so my particularly is pioneer, connector, creative, guardian, nurturer. So nurture would be my least. Familiar voice, and that is exactly my wife's voice. Yeah. So, you know, she's, so, she, we, she and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum and it shows up every single day.
James: Yeah.
Dave Kush: So I've got, so it's helped in my marriage, understanding how to, how to be with my wife, how to talk with her, how to listen to her better, how to not interrupt her when she's talking, and how to ask her, pull the best out of her. So. It's been a super effective tool for me to, to know all the voice tendencies.
Not just my own, but But how other people are wired. Yeah. So that I can interact with 'em better.
James: Yeah. I love it too because like it's when [00:24:00] you, again, in this organizational development piece, when everybody in the organization begins to know their voice, like I know when I sit in a meeting with you if I know you're a pioneer connector.
Well, I know your tendencies or the typical tendencies of pioneer connector. Mm-hmm. What you need from me in that conversation, and I can actually show up and actually empower you in that. Whereas if, you know, I'm a creative pioneer. Mm-hmm. And so my last voice would be nurture. Mm-hmm. Which is my wife's also.
Mm-hmm. So I, again, like you, I've had to learn how to not. My weapon is I can be very laser focused. Mm-hmm. Almost like a sniper trying to take, take something else. I've become very sarcastic. Right. I'm gonna assassinate you, especially if I think you're incompetent. But you know, in relationships, you actually have to, if you don't know that mm-hmm.
You can really hurt somebody that's working for you. Yeah. Or somebody that's, that you're under underneath. So that's why that and that, [00:25:00] again, I was thinking about this. Like you said, you're an ENFP. ENTP. Yeah. ENTP. So if you told me that I, I don't know what that means. Right, right. It's another language.
Yeah. Right. And like if I told you I was, you would know it. 'cause you're, you're certified in Myers-Briggs. Right. But most people aren't. And so I'm not gonna be able to, to like make that very actionable in our conversation. But with Five voices mm-hmm. You can actually make a tool that's actionable in relationship and relational trust.
Right.
Dave Kush: Yeah. And what I, what I love is a lot of this is based on, you know, just science and observation over, you know, a couple hundred, about a hundred years. But knowing, like we just talked a lot about the weaknesses and some of the stress points for, for some of these voices and how they play out, but the, the, I don't know that I answered your original question.
You know, the pioneer voice is gonna be typified as someone who's very strategic. Mm-hmm. Very much to the point, very direct and very mission focused. And so that type of personality. Is [00:26:00] gonna tend to run over people. Right. Um, but also it's a per personality that's gonna get a lot done. And, you know, sometimes also from a pioneer, they're, they're gonna be great people to start initiatives, but maybe not the great follow up people.
That's where the other voices come in. Mm-hmm. Knowing you know who to get on your team. The great follow follow up pe follow through people, the detailed people, people who are doing risk assessment. So, and then people who understand other people's, you know, how, how people are hearing things, right? So yeah, I might be strategic in, in getting things done, but if I'm, if I don't know what people want, what people need to hear, that's where some of the other voices really come in as great benefits.
So
James: I can see how that's really powerful for framework, because that missing voice. Can really affect an organization? Oh, absolutely. Like in typically, you know, high levels of leadership, the C-suites, the executive teams, the leadership teams are made up of [00:27:00] the more dominant, loud voices. The pioneers, mm-hmm.
Connectors, guardians. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you're missing, a lot of times you're not careful, you're missing what's really happening in the present day from the. The nurturers who are kind of people, champions of people and kind of have a touch for that. Right.
Dave Kush: And when you have a, you know, just understanding that the nurture voice and the guardian voice make up almost 75% of the population.
Yeah. And the connectors and the pioneers actually make a very small percentage of the population.
James: Right.
Dave Kush: Then you start realizing, okay, well if pioneers are making all the decisions, making all the building, all the communication, they're not really speaking to the whole population. Right. You really need to have it filtered through a nurturer voice, a creative voice.
Yeah. And, and so those are, those are very helpful.
James: That's good. So let, let's turn to this idea of, you know, five voices. How do you use that to help teams build. Trust un them understanding nationally wiring, how does that actually practically build into an organization building a high trust culture?
Dave Kush: I, I love this [00:28:00] topic because, and we actually have a whole workshop on this, and I, I love the, the concept of the four C's.
Mm-hmm. The four C's would be character, chemistry, competency, credibility. So. The key here to remember is none of us, regardless of your voice, leadership, voice, none of us are gonna be naturally strong in having all four of those Cs. Mm-hmm When we're, we're interacting with people, and especially people we don't know.
So understanding where, which ones you're strong in and which ones you're naturally weaker in, knowing your weak areas are actually gonna help you to be a little bit more intentional about building trust in that way. So for me, as a pioneer. I'm gonna be weaker in chemistry. Mm-hmm. Uh, just, I'm gonna walk into, I gotta, I gotta realize it's a blind spot.
People aren't naturally gonna like me. Mm-hmm. So I've gotta compensate a little bit for that. And then the other thing, character. The word character. I'm like, I, I [00:29:00] consider myself to be a person of high integrity. So character's really important to me, but what I don't realize is because I'm so driven, so bottom line, I get right to the point, very strategic.
People when they see my approach and the way I communicate and the way I really charge hard on things, they sometimes don't know what my motive is, what my intention is.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: And so oftentimes that can be misinterpreted as me having a hidden agenda.
James: Mm.
Dave Kush: Or a hidden motive. And so I've gotta compensate for that.
For example, a pioneer voice has to compensate and actually let people know verbally. Express that you've got their best interest in mind,
James: right?
Dave Kush: And, and so I've gotta, I've gotta compensate, overcompensate for, for that weakness. And every one of the voices has the same type of challenges, right? In a different category of that building trust.
So, right. And it's actually
James: easier. Each voice has a place that's easier to lean in the trust. So for you. You're [00:30:00] looking for competency, right? Yeah.
Dave Kush: Competency, credibility. These, these aren't gonna be a problem for me, and that's what I'm gonna be looking for in other people
James: too. Right? And they're, you're gonna, you're gonna be easy to, somebody's gonna be easy to build trust with you if they're highly competent and you know, and credible.
Yeah. Whereas like for your wife, she wants the chemistry and char character, right? Mm-hmm. And if you don't have that, she doesn't mean that competency and credibility don't matter, but she's gonna look first. And open up first two character and
Dave Kush: chemistry. Right. And for, for a connector voice coming in the room, I may, I might really like them, say, Hey, they're a great person.
I just don't know that they're gonna follow through with this. Right. You know, they don't have a track record. They don't have a track record. So that's where the, the trust breaks down for each of the voices. So yeah, understanding that is really important. I love going through that workshop. 'cause people, like I see light bulbs come on all the time.
James: Mm-hmm. Through that. Yeah. Can you share a time when you learned this lesson the hard way in your own leadership?
Dave Kush: Yeah. Well, when I was leading the construction company, my team knew [00:31:00] that I was competent and, you know, I had credit, I had a good track record. I, I'd been in the industry for 15 years. So the, the issue though was I wasn't a real likable person.
I would walk into the room, I'd bark some, some commands and call a meeting and like, this is what we're doing. Call out the agenda. And I really kind of go through the task list, but I'm not taking time for the people.
James: Yeah.
Dave Kush: I wasn't taking time and asking how they're doing. Didn't know the, the names of their spouses, you know, it, it just was a work, first person, last type approach.
And so naturally they were gonna be questioning my motives, my character, uh, and I did a terrible job of letting 'em know I actually cared, you know, and had, you know, the best intentions in mind for them. So. Because of that, they were gonna be suspicious and that I had a hidden agenda. Hmm. So, so not listening for me was, was a big aha to, so, you know, I, I had [00:32:00] to beyond just kind of establishing some chemistry and all character being fully present with people because if I wasn't listening, they knew.
I mean, you know, if someone's not listening to you, they're you, you say something. And you know, while you're talking, they're already, they're not listening to you at all. Yeah. They're coming up with the answer and response. Yeah. In their mind and their eyes are somewhere else. So that was me. I, you know, I gave the impression that I just didn't care about 'em and really only cared about my own agenda and my goals.
James: So, yeah. So were there some tendencies that, that actually played out? What did that look like when you're in that space of missing people in your leadership?
Dave Kush: I, I think you shut people down and you don't get the best out of them. You, you get, you get sometimes a passive aggressive approach. They're, they're just going through the motions to get things done, and so, you know.
For me, I would get impatient with people and when I saw the things weren't happening as quickly as I wanted them to, or someone wasn't [00:33:00] getting it, I would jump in, I would interrupt with things that I thought were more important, and I would shut people down that I thought, you know, were disagreeing with me.
So, you know, that's where the grenade launcher came out. Mm-hmm. And I actually probably did a little bit of damage. Yeah. And, uh, I, I have said this before, anybody that I worked with in my twenties and thirties, I've actually had to go back and apologize to mm-hmm. Because, you know, I've got, I've got a lot to apologize for.
So,
James: so, you know, I think probably a lot of people who listen to this podcast are, you know, business leaders, entrepreneurs, creators, growth minded people are probably type A personalities. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe a lot in that. Pioneer space. Strategic. What are some practical things that you would suggest that listeners could do to become more present with their teams?
Dave Kush: Yeah, so what I'd love to do is post the active listening audit Yeah. In in your show notes. But I would say to summarize maybe a couple of bullet points here, pause and listen.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: Actually, when you're listening to someone. [00:34:00] Ask some clarifying questions. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, someone has just told you something now to show them that you've just listened to them and heard what they said, ask a couple questions that are specific to what they just said.
Yeah. So they don't believe that you just are flying past what they just said. And, uh, another way of doing this is repeating back what you heard in your own words. And I, I've used this tool a lot, especially when someone's very serious and they've got, they're covering something that's very important to them.
They get done and I. Pause and I actually turn around and say, okay, so let me, let me repeat back to you what I just heard in my own words and make sure I got it right. Mm-hmm. That's huge because now the person is feeling what they were heard. Mm-hmm. Right. I was listening to them. And I think one of, you know, in my own mind, in my own head, I've gotta be aware of what my mental distractions are.
Hmm. So I, you know, I could be thinking about the score of a football game or the next thing I need to do, or the, you know, the next meeting. Yeah. And I could be stressed about something else. And so when someone's talking [00:35:00] to me, that's actually getting my, my mental distractions are getting in the way of actually listening.
James: So
Dave Kush: I gotta be aware of what's going on in my own head so that I can actually work with that and be intentional about shutting that noise down so I can listen and, uh, eye contact, body language, all of those things. So, but I think the, the listening audit would be really great for our listeners if you're interested in that, that'd be great.
Sure.
James: So let's talk a little bit more about leadership development and specifically what you have as a leadership development framework. Why is it important? What does it look like? So,
Dave Kush: okay. If you can picture maybe two or three levels in your organization for what skills, what competencies make up an effective leader in your organization?
So every leader, every organization has a set of expectations.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: Okay. We want our, our, all of our employees to be team players. You know, we want 'em to be teachable. Those could be some, some examples of what every organization would want and expect in any [00:36:00] employee working in working in their company.
You start off with being a team player and then you realize that hey, the next level, what is, what would be the next level from that? So this framework actually builds a framework, a road, if you would, to what are the skills that I need to be building if I'm, if I'm working here with this company, with this team, how do I continue to grow as an individual?
What's my next step of growth? And so. To, to give a clear example, if I am just joining an organization and they've discovered that I'm a team player, you know, building unity, I'm not divisive, disruptive, that's great. If I'm ever gonna be a team leader, mm-hmm. Just giving me a title and giving me a team to lead isn't enough.
I actually need to be able to build a team. Mm-hmm. I need to have the competency, the skill I need to know how to build a team. Putting those expectations out in front of [00:37:00] everybody and letting 'em know, Hey, this is, this is how you grow in our organization. And I feel like that is such an important framework to have for every organization.
James: Yeah. So, so I understand that it's basically helping somebody come in as an individual contributor. The these are the base. Competencies, values. Mm-hmm. Skills that you need to have to be part of our organization. Everybody. This is bottom line. You have to do this. Yep. To kind of move to that next level, maybe moving from individual con contributor to maybe a manager of people.
You need to elevate these certain skills to that. And then the next level, maybe your mid-level manager, manager or managers. Yep. So actually also for an organization creates a succession plan, right?
Dave Kush: Exactly. Exactly. You, you're building specific skills, so having a, a click down on some of these, some bullet points for being a team builder.
Would actually be you. You need, you know, [00:38:00] now you have the skills to identify other individuals that need to be on your team.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: And how to get them incorporated into the team. You need to know how to train a new person on your team, how to equip them with the right tools, with the right processes, and, uh, you know, how to build trust and unity within the team.
This is important for a team leader. You, you can't be a team leader if you don't know how to build trust and unity within your team. Uh, bringing, you know, we talk a lot about support challenge. How do you bring the right calibrated levels of support and challenge to your team, to your individuals? And then, you know, really, I feel like it's important as a team leader, you gotta set an example as a leader.
So you, where do you go from there in an organization once you learn some of those skills? What, for me, I believe the next, the next level is, like you said. Leading other leaders, other team leaders. And that really now takes you to a level of like being a coach, being a mentor, a go-to that, uh, a resident expert in how to build teams.
[00:39:00] And so a new team leader would be coming to you now that you've developed those skills and know how to do it, know how to train other people, and you're a resource and you know, those skills continue to scale.
James: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dave Kush: What in whatever organization you're at?
James: Yeah. I'm currently reading through for the second time the book Traction
Dave Kush: Uhhuh,
James: and talking about having the right people in the right seats.
And sometimes you gather the, the wrong person in the right seat or the right person in the wrong seat. But how do you, but you need the, a lot of it has to do with do they have, do they get it? You know, do they understand what the rule takes? Do they really wanna do it? And then they do, they have the capacity, right?
Right. The first two are really based on the individual. Mm-hmm. Capacity really is a partnership with the organization to help build the capacity to do that. So it is, it is really important that you actually, I, I love that framework, that you actually have a structure that you're intentionally.
Developing people to the [00:40:00] next level. Mm-hmm. So that you can always have the right people in the right seat.
Dave Kush: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Another example of that would be the very entry level. You, you want people to be encouraging and mm-hmm. Just as a team, team member, you want to be someone who's kind of up and encouraging and always speaking positively.
Well, what's the next level from that? The next level would be a good com great communicator. Mm-hmm. So whether you're a great communicator with a couple of people or a whole crowd of people. Then the third level from that is once you've developed all those skills of being a great communicator, you really start to turn to this concept of being an inspirational leader.
Mm-hmm. Really casting vision and, and driving the culture. Building the culture stronger with, with your words, with your communication
James: to the team. So, yeah. Another example. So what, what happens in an organization that doesn't have that kind of clear development path?
Dave Kush: Well, I think that. If you take a look at any organization, you're gonna have low performers, medium performers, high performers with the problem with, if you don't have [00:41:00] a leader framework, if you don't have some set expectations on how to grow, what's gonna happen is your high performers are gonna leave.
James: Mm-hmm.
Dave Kush: Because those are the people that want to grow. And if you're not providing some track, some, some roadmap for how to become a better person, it doesn't mean you have to promote 'em every six months. Mm-hmm. If the person knows that you're intentional about just developing them, even if they stay in that same role, they're still growing as an individual.
They're, they're, they're, they're understanding more. They're, they're becoming a stronger leader. They're gonna stay. They know, Hey, I'm growing here probably more than I've ever grown in any other position. Yeah. And, and that, and that means a lot. So PE high performers want to grow. If you don't provide a path, they're gonna leave.
Yeah. They're gonna go grow somewhere else.
James: Yeah. One of my favorite statements, I'm kind of paraphrase, it was from Richard Branson. One of his books is like, to create a culture that helps people become employees that could go anywhere and work anywhere. It's such a great leadership culture that they don't [00:42:00] wanna go anyplace else.
Dave Kush: Exactly. Even for higher pay.
James: Yeah. Yeah. If, if they're motivated, they're developing, if they're, you know, growing, you know, that's, that's a huge benefit. That's not gonna happen in lot organizations. So True. So if someone's listening and thinking, you know, I wanna start building this kind of trust on my teams.
What, what can they do to begin, or where should they begin?
Dave Kush: Uh, there's a couple things you can do as an individual leader. Without any outside resources, you can actually just go get some feedback from people that you work with. Mm-hmm. And get some feedback from your spouse at home. Like, what's it like to be on the other side of me, you know, learning your own natural tendencies.
Of course, we have some great tools. Mm-hmm. To be able to kind of dive into that with the Five Voices assessment, some other tools, and just being intentional about changing how you respond. When those natural tendencies happen the next time, like how, how am I gonna respond the next time that stress point hits because I screwed up last time?
And so I think the reflection, daily reflection as a leader is so [00:43:00] important. I try to do this, you know, 10, 15 minutes every day, end of the day before I get home. Like where, what didn't go. How do I do better tomorrow? Yeah. And uh,
James: yeah. So are there ways for them to know if they're actually developing people in instead of just managing them?
Are there, how would they know?
Dave Kush: Yeah, I think, I think we need to, and we just talked about this with a team I'm working with now, how do we, how do we push pause? Sharpen our saw. They, the old Stephen Covey seven havoc. Yeah. Highly effective people. The, the seventh habit was sharpening the saw. And that, that sounds kind of weird, but if you're, if you're sawing wood all day, eventually that saw is gonna get dull.
Mm-hmm. If you, if you keep sawing, you're gonna, you're gonna feel like you're effective and you're, you're gonna keep working. And you've sometimes feel like, well, I can't stop and sharpen the socks. If I stop, I'm gonna lose time. Actually stopping and sharpening the saw will actually make you more effective.
You, you'll saw through the wood faster. [00:44:00] And I think that's the same way with skills. You know, you, we need to take time to sharpen our skills and people, the people around us. So if people around us aren't sharpening their skills, taking, taking moments in a, in the week or in the months to actually improve in some of these skills, reflection, challenging people get it, but it actually often requires us pausing.
Getting stuff done. And, and that's, that's the painful thing I, I think a lot of leaders need to get over and realize, okay, in order for someone to get better, they need to pause and go a little slower because they actually go faster. Yeah.
James: So we talked a lot about framework planning and all about development, so forth.
So if you could boil down, like your vision for the leaders that you work with, what, what, what's your vision? What do you hope happens in their lives? What do you hope they become?
Dave Kush: I think. Over the years, what I've realized is it's not a one size fit all or one model mm-hmm. Or one thing that you're going after.
I think every individual, every leader is unique [00:45:00] with their own gifting, what they can contribute to an organization, how they can lead better, and so regardless of where a person is with their skillset and what their, what their gifting. They should always be becoming the best version of themself. Hmm.
And that concept of becoming the best version, I can't become my coworker, you know, I, that person's got different skills, different talents, gifting. I need to become the best version of myself so that I can actually improve the organization with my gifting. You know, it's not just applying this in the workplace.
'cause we talked a lot about here in the, this conversation in the workplace, but really, how are you leading yourself personally? Mm-hmm. I love and, and pa my, I've got a vision of seeing people grow and develop themselves personally and lead themselves better because it, this is an inside out thing. If, if it's not happening on the inside, the outside is, is gonna be a mess and you can only fake it so long.[00:46:00]
So someone leading themselves personally and then actually being more present with their family, their spouse. This is huge. And take it from me. It's it sometimes it doesn't play out really well on a family vacation. Yeah. You have you, you're working really hard to take a vacation and then you go and you're preoccupied the whole time.
Yeah. And then it's a mess and you don't enjoy it. And you're more stressed out when you get home because, and back to work because you've just messed up. A lot of your relationship with your family, your spouse. So I think for me, the vision would just would be to see not just affect leaders becoming more effective, but becoming more healthy.
That's, that's a key. That's where we're gonna see culture change.
James: Yeah. So many leaders are crushing it in the office, but crashing at home. Oh yeah. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. And, and you can only do that 'cause you only have one life. It's one whole life. So even if you're crushing it at workplace for a while, it's gonna catch up with you because your relationships.
So going back to this whole idea of relational intelligence, it really is important [00:47:00] that you understand yourself so you can lead yourself so that you're, you're crushing it. All over the place, right? Mm-hmm. Healthy. Healthy in the workplace. Healthy and home. Yep. Healthy in your relationship. So, yep. Well, Dave, this has been really great.
If someone is resonating with this conversation and specifically about framework, they wanna learn more about what you do, where would you send them?
Dave Kush: I would, one quick reference would be our website, so we can post the website. Yeah, put that website in. So that's, it's, uh, framework planning.com. Uh, email me@davidframeworkplanning.com.
Yeah, I, I think more than looking at a website or, you know, reading material, actually having a conversation, I love understanding where people are at and asking strategic questions and, and usually that takes about, you know, hour, hour and a half to really kind of go through a lot of strategic questions to find out where the pain points.
Because a lot of times when a leader comes and says, Hey, I really think I need something to help with this, or Our team needs something. [00:48:00] Usually the surface reasons or issues aren't really the realest issues. Right. And usually it's one or two layers down. So kind of going through that exercise and I, I love having those conversations.
We, we don't charge to have that initial conversation. Okay. So it's, it's no loss, but it's just, it's an investment. Right. And so, yeah. Is
James: there a place to
Dave Kush: book a conversation with you on your website? Yeah. Okay. We, we do have a spot to, to fill in your name and give us, and so we can set up a call
James: or a meeting.
Awesome. Well, Dave, thanks so much for being on the podcast, man. I, I really appreciate you sharing just where things are in your life and where you come from and, and you know, again, personally, I've known you for a long time and I learned a few things today too. So thanks a lot. I
Dave Kush: love it. Love it. James, you are an incredible leader and just so glad that you're doing this and you're helping so many people.
James: Thank you.
What a great conversation. Dave's journey and insight remind us that leadership isn't just about outcomes, it's about intentionality. [00:49:00] His commitment to helping leaders grow in self-awareness, relational intelligence, and trust is exactly what's needed in today's leadership culture.
If you wanna learn more about his work or schedule a conversation, head over the framework planning.com. Don't forget, if you haven't already, take five days to refocus with a five day leadership reset. It's free, simple, and built to help you lead with clarity and purpose.
Start now@liveleadlast.com slash reset. If you're looking for weekly encouragement and practical leadership tools, Join the Rooted email community by texting grow GROW to 6 6 8 6 6. You can also connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn. I love to hear what resonated with you from today's episode, and if this conversation helped you grow, take a moment to rate, review and share the episode.
It helps more leaders like you find the tools and encouragement they need to live, lead, and last. Until next time, keep leading with integrity, living with intention, and building a legacy that matters. [00:50:00]