Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Andy Miller III: Well, here we are. On another interview with a friend of mine, Jeff Greenway, who's 1 of the candidates for Bishop, and he happens to be somebody who, I think, has a presence with me at all times. Well, generally I have my degree hanging on the wall, and he was the seminary president who officially endorsed me as somebody to get that degree. So it's a delight of course. Some people who've listed my podcast. In the past. Know him. We've had him on to talk about what's been happening in united methodism and the emerging global methodism in the past. So Jeff. Welcome back to the podcast.
Jeff Greenway: See you again, Andy. Congratulations about what's happened in your life. I'm excited about your Presidency at the at Wesley Biblical Seminary. That's a great thing for you, and a great thing for the school.
Andy Miller III: Well, thank you. It's it certainly is an honor to be in this role, and I'm feeling it now. As I said, we, as we said before he came on the call. I don't have any of my vice presidents in place right now, and I don't have a secretary, but nevertheless, God is is leading us. We have our biggest enrollment ever more than 700 students who are in academic programs. This semester 400 from the gold Methodist church. So it's exciting time for us.
Andy Miller III: and many from your conference from Allegheny.
Jeff Greenway: I know I've been talking to him. They're having a great experience.
Andy Miller III: Well, good. I have a couple of them in my preaching class, too.
Andy Miller III: Well, Jeff, I have the same question, same general questions, and we'll just do as much as we can like. I'll I'll probably like, ask some follow up questions along the way. But these 1st 2 questions have a timer, a real timer. I am physically going to time us here with my phone. So give us 2 min on
Andy Miller III: how you came to be a Christian, how you came to know Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: So I'm the oldest son of Harold and Betty Jo Greenway. My dad was a pastor both of my parents loved Jesus. I don't ever remember a time in my life when Jesus wasn't a part of the conversation.
Jeff Greenway: but until I was about 13 years old I was living on the coattails of my parents. Faith, I came home from school on March 13, th 1,973 was met at the bus stop by by 2 of my 3 younger siblings to say that I had to come home because there was glass and blood everywhere. I got to the house I found out that my youngest brother had had an accident, where he flew through the window, head first, st and he was cut on his neck and his wrist, and was bleeding out when my mother saved his life. They took him to the hospital.
Jeff Greenway: but I got home, and as the oldest I had to clean up, and I can remember sweeping up glass and blood, thinking about death. For the very 1st time in my life
Jeff Greenway: that night there was a We care mission being held at my dad's church. That was where a bunch of pastors came, and they visited every church in the neighborhood, and invited them to come out that evening for services, and the preacher that night was a guy named Jack Creeks.
Jeff Greenway: and he preached a sermon.
Jeff Greenway: and I can remember the invitation was, If you will accept Jesus as your Savior. He'll forgive your sins, and He'll he'll cleanse you from sin, and he'll save you from death.
Jeff Greenway: And when he gave the invitation. Wild horses could not have kept me away from going to the altar to accept Jesus as my Savior. Now, fun fact!
Jeff Greenway: About 30 years later, not 25 years later I was named a district superintendent, and my installation service was held in that sanctuary, and I preached my sermon in that space right
Jeff Greenway: where I accepted Jesus. So I I can point to a definitive time. I've known Jesus all my life, but that was when he became Savior, and he's been becoming Lord ever since.
Andy Miller III: I love it well, look at that! You even have 15 seconds to spare.
Andy Miller III: That's great. Oh, I love that story! How the the serendipity of being able to have that moment. When you serve as a district superintendent to have that there is beautiful. One of the things is important, I think, as we're moving into this next movement of Methodism and kind of like. And I think a method is in a broad term. But in global Methodism. I think it's important for us to see like that. We aren't just free, Will Baptist, so to speak. Not that there's any problems with Free will bap Baptist like I love them.
Jeff Greenway: 7, 2. They'll be in heaven.
Andy Miller III: Absolutely. And I have a lot, you know, at Wbs we have a lot of Baptist students. So like, I'm I'm thankful for that. And they're getting a Wesleyan education, for that matter. But but give me
Andy Miller III: 3 min or less of what makes a Wesley and Christian a Wesleyan Christian.
Jeff Greenway: Oh, that's a great question. You know, the joke used to be in the South when I lived down there that you went to the Baptist Church to get saved in the Methodist Church to get sanctified. But if we're really Westland, if we're entirely Westland.
Jeff Greenway: we understand the whole continue of grace. You know the prevenient grace that awakens us to our, to our need for God and our human condition, that something is wrong inside of us, the Holy Spirit wooing us and opening us to be ready to hear the Gospel justifying grace where our sin is forgiven.
Jeff Greenway: and we're justified as righteous before God, we're adopted into His family, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and then and then sanctifying grace, is working out our salvation for the rest of our lives, until at the end glorifying grace is when Jesus takes us home, you know, and and to be. Westland understands that God has been working from the moment we were conceived.
Jeff Greenway: until the moment we take our last breath, and then he takes us home, and I think that the great gift of the Wesleyan movement, though, was the understanding of the of sanctifying grace, that not only can we be forgiven for our sin.
Jeff Greenway: we can have capacity to say no to our sin, we can be released from its power in our lives. We can become more and more like Jesus every day than you know. Every day that we were waiting when we got up in the morning, that we are continually growing in grace, continually growing in Christ, likeness going on to perfection, and I love what Dennis Kinlogg used to say. We sometimes people think that Christian perfection is sinless perfection. It's not. It's being made perfect in the love of God for God and people.
Jeff Greenway: and when we can yield our hearts like that to God, it gives us the capacity to recognize him when it comes, and and the strength to say No, there is no temptation that comes to us that we cannot withstand because of the presence of the Holy Spirit within us, and to be able to grow, to teach people that we're not only concerned about you getting saved, that Jesus accepts us as we are.
Jeff Greenway: but He loves us too much to leave us that way. That's the great part of the second working of grace in our lives is we become more and more like Jesus, and when we become more and more like Jesus, we become more perfect in His love.
Andy Miller III: Amen. I love that, and many people in my audience will love it. That you, quoted Dennis Kinlo. So you actually have another 50 seconds if you want to use them. Jeff.
Jeff Greenway: You know. Let me. I'll tell you how I appropriate this for myself. I pray 3 prayers every morning.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Jeff Greenway: The 1st one
Jeff Greenway: is, I give my heart to Jesus all over again.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Jeff Greenway: And the reason I do that is because I know my heart, and I know at some point during the day there's going to be a battle to see who's in charge of my heart, and I want him to start in the place he deserves to be.
Jeff Greenway: The second is that I'll be more like Jesus tonight when I go to bed than what it was when I got up in the morning. That's a very Wesleyan prayer, right that we go on to perfection, and the 3rd is that God would take my life
Jeff Greenway: and use it, doing whatever He wants me to do. That's a dangerous prayer that prayer has taken me places I never thought I'd be, but that's about living in response to Grace. And you remember that's 1 of my Taglines from when I was president. Everything we do is in response to the grace we've received it. That's, I believe, the genius of Wesley and the genius of our movement.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes, yeah, I love that. I love that. Grace focused. Approach.
Andy Miller III: Jeff. You've been a part of various aspects of leadership from the Westland Covenant Association back to, you know, 20 year, 20 years ago, lead leadership in the United Methodist Church, and on through like those 20 years, doing all kinds of things. But now, in the global Methodist church, and with the emergence of this new plan, you've been asked to step up through this leadership roles. Could you tell us why you answer the call to even just apply to let your name be brought forward for this role.
Jeff Greenway: 1st of all, Andy, I'm really humbled to be included with these other good folks we're we're meeting together on a weekly basis we're praying with and for each other. Many of us have been friends before this even started. So it's kind of fun to walk through this season together.
Jeff Greenway: i I was humbled to be nominated by some friends across the church, as well as my annual conference delegation.
Jeff Greenway: But, like I said, I pray these 3 prayers every morning right? And that 3rd one is that I will never say no to Jesus. So I I'm I'm holding this with a really open hand. In 2,000. I was a Episcopal candidate in our former denomination. I was 40 years old.
Jeff Greenway: who, in their right mind would want to elect a 40 year old to be a bishop of the Church. You know they were their bishops for life right.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Jeff Greenway: I mean, and and I I did well for one ballot, because we had the largest delegation in the jurisdiction, and I felt like a rock and went home, and and everything was in line to do that again in 2,004. And God interrupted that to take me to Asbury.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah. Looking back, God spared me.
Jeff Greenway: I would have been miserable
Jeff Greenway: in the College of Bishops in the northeast jurisdiction. I would have been in hand to hand combat along. You know me well enough. I don't believe I'd have caved to anything.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Greenway: But I would have eaten a lot of dinners alone.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Jeff Greenway: And so God spared me, and even even the circuitous journey that brings me to this place, that God hasn't wasted a thing he didn't waste the time at Asbury. He didn't waste the time. I've been serving Reynoldsburg or the Wca. Or the Tlc. Or any of this, and so I I've always tried to say yes to Jesus, and and I'm looking at. This is, Jesus has opened a possibility, and if he through the church says, yes, I'll serve if he through the church says, no, I'll be fine.
Jeff Greenway: I've I've had. I've I've got a great life
Jeff Greenway: married to Beth. 3 kids, 8 grandkids, you know, love the ministry that I've been a part of, and that said, I. Do think that
Jeff Greenway: that I've had some life experiences that would be helpful. Now I I have a sense of history of where we've been.
Jeff Greenway: I have a sense of where we intend this new model of the Episcopy to go. And and I I think that I think I can help that. Yeah, if I'm not chosen to be a bishop. I've already had conversations with a lot of the colleagues that are in this pool about what this could be like. We want it to be different than what we had before, and I'm looking forward to that opportunity. Whoever whoever is serving in the role.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, and and you had a part to play in this. Forgive me if I have the information wrong. But weren't you the chair of the committee that drafted this legislation for the Tlc. Or.
Jeff Greenway: So I was actually the chair of 2 things that are relevant for this conversation. I was the chair of the next step working group for the Wca. That developed the 1st draft of the doctrines and discipline which the hybrid model is is built off of, and there was a time where I thought that was the best model. But I'm not going to get into debating all that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Greenway: Today we'll do that in general conference. Well.
Andy Miller III: And I.
Jeff Greenway: Up, to.
Andy Miller III: Jay's on Jay Ferrell's coming on the Podcast to talk about that plan, so that will be there sure.
Jeff Greenway: But but I was asked to chair the nature of the Episcopacy task force, and between the the Wca. Task Force and the Episcopist Episcopacy Task force.
Jeff Greenway: I think God allowed us to rediscover that general superintendency was really the part of the Methodist movement until 1,939.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: We didn't. We didn't have bishops located until then, and I happen to believe that located and regionalized episcopacy was was what enabled
Jeff Greenway: what happened in our former denomination to happen. And so so yeah, I I chaired the I chaired the Episcopacy Task force. We took a look at the Wca. Model. By the way, when it word got out that I was chairing the task force I received no untold number of opinions about what we ought to do. And but I would. The thing that I learned, and this is happening right now. In the church
Jeff Greenway: anytime the Episcopacy is mentioned. The temperature in the room goes up and and I and I honestly believe it has more to do with where we've been than where we're going.
Jeff Greenway: I think it has more to do with the mistreatment and the and the lack of attention to being faithful to the vows in our former connection, than what we've witnessed from Mark Webb and Scott Jones and Mike Lowry and and others in this new connection. So, but it's real, and people are anxious.
Jeff Greenway: And until we have this hammered out. There's gonna be anxiety, and there'll probably be anxiety as we live into whatever we do. But yeah, I was a part of that. I have a deep understanding of of what we intend for this model.
Jeff Greenway: I have a deep understanding of of why we've separated some powers away so that they're handled by a conference superintendent. It's not that conference superintendents aren't spiritual leaders at all. It's just that it's a layer of insulation from bishops getting so bogged down in the day to day operation of how a conference runs that they lose sight of the of the real need of, you know, guarding and defending the faith, teaching our doctrine, evangelizing for Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: you know, setting our appointments, ordaining our clergy, and and presiding at the general conference. That's you know, if we, if we have bishops who will do that for us, I can tell you from my experience the last 2 years, that'll be a gift.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah.
Andy Miller III: And I think that's probably what has led to momentum behind that process is we we've seen how it can work. And and one of the things that part of this process in case people know. And you know, Jeff, I have an audience. It's not just gmc, umc, they're just interested in leadership, chat questions in the church. And so the position that you're you've been nominated for is a 2 year interim Bishop position, and and that then also has in the legislation to have an assembly of bishops. What do you think these 2 years.
Andy Miller III: you know from now to 2,026 should happen. What should should the Assembly bishops be doing like what should be the goal of that group?
Jeff Greenway: Yeah, I'll answer in just a second. I I want to explain why. 2 years.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Jeff Greenway: There are parts of the global Methodist Church that are out and ready to elect bishops.
Jeff Greenway: But there are significant swaths of our church that are just now getting out.
Jeff Greenway: and and they are coming out of a former way of Episcopacy.
Jeff Greenway: of located annual conference bishops. And we want to give a couple of years for the rest of the church to get to the place where they've lived under this model for a couple of years, so that when we come together at the next conference, which is going to be in 2026, we can get into the 6 year Rhythm of General Conference, and the 6 year rhythm of the election of bishops.
Jeff Greenway: So all that said this next 2 years, I think the 2 or 3 most important things that that these trend that these 2 year bishops could do
Jeff Greenway: is to build trust.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: You know, to be true to their word, to show up, when necessary, to invest in and support the Conference leadership that they relate to to help them be as most the most effective that they can be. You know, Bishop Webb has been a great example of this for us here in Allegheny West. He he's been our bishop since we began, you know, in April 1st of 2023, and and he spent 8 days with us, a total of 8 days in all that time.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Jeff Greenway: We. We have more relationship with him
Jeff Greenway: in those 8 days because of the way he comports himself, and because he's here as our spiritual leader he's here to ordain. He's here to train our cabinet. He's here to train our clergy. Actually, we're about to have him come through for 5 days at the beginning of September, and we're going to do a teaching tour around to 5 different parts of our annual conference. Just so he can begin to embed this DNA in our conference, and I I would just tell you that that's worked really
Jeff Greenway: well, and it's and I've been a I've been a district superintendent. I've done a lot of things. I have more working relationship with this bishop than any Episcopal leader I've had since I was like the Dean of the superintendent, and I saw the Bishop every week, and that was George Bayshore. And hey, John Kim.
Jeff Greenway: I also think that in this next couple of years. It's time for us to become very intentional about teaching our doctrine, you know, Andy, you know from the book that Bishop Lowry and I wrote that that I said that human sexuality was really the presenting symptom of 5 fundamental doctrinal fissures that were not resolved when the United Methodist Church was formed, which resulted in vastly different understandings of the nature, role, and authority of Scripture.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: The nature, role and divinity of Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: the nature of sin? Is it personal, or is it societal right, the nature of salvation? What does justifying grace mean to people, and then, finally, the nature of sanctification. And and I really think that this is the season
Jeff Greenway: for our episcopal leaders to really begin to lay down the foundations of our Westland understanding of a doctrine of the Scriptures and the doctrine of of you know the the identity of who Jesus was, you know, and the doctrine of sin and salvation and sanctification, and and lay that down in easily understandable terms. So not only the academics can understand it. No offense to you or me.
Jeff Greenway: but that the average lay person understands. And I've actually been teaching this stuff for the last 18 years at Reynoldsburg. I I just ended my time as their lead pastor, but nobody had ever heard of Wesley. You know any of the theological foundation of who we are but 18 years of consistent weekly teaching, of of, you know, of Bible studies, of repeating the foundational essence, of who we are as Methodist. They're a thoroughly Wesleyan congregation.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: And ready to move into the future. So I think those are important. And I I just think we need to reclaim our distinctively Wesleyan understanding of those doctrines.
Andy Miller III: You know, it's interesting as we've served. We've had more than 500 Gmc. Pastors come through our course of study program. But A and I think there's a a desire to be Wesleyan. But as people have entered, many of people serving particularly in what was form, position, formally held by as local licensed pastors. Rural situations. They they haven't had access to this type of teaching, and
Andy Miller III: and they just they just haven't known, and not that they're resistant to it. Well, somehow. So some are, but but not that they're resistant. But in general it's like, Oh.
Andy Miller III: now we're starting to get the what what we might identify as the Wesleyan dogma. You want to jump in there.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah. Well, so one of the, I think one of the the smartest things I did in my last 4 years at Reynoldsburg, because there was no secret. We were getting ready to leave, you know.
Andy Miller III: Sure.
Jeff Greenway: In fact, when we finally became very obvious about it people came up to me and said, Hey, if you don't know, I think we know what's going on around here. Nobody's been paying if they don't know what's happening here. Nobody's been paying attention. But about 4 summers ago we took
Jeff Greenway: 8 to 10 weeks of summer, and we took one of Wesley's 44 standard sermons every week. Oh, wow! And we and we worked through it, and then we brought it to today and
Jeff Greenway: Pre. And our people loved it.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Jeff Greenway: Loved it. So we the 1st series was was Roots. The second series was Shoots, and the 3rd series was fruit. So we kind of said, these are foundational doctrinal sermons. These are application sermons, and these are the fruit of what we believe is Wesleyans, and and I gotta tell you. It was like pouring water on parched earth. Now, I don't know why I didn't think about doing that 40 years ago or 39 years ago.
Jeff Greenway: except that, except that I've come to a Pre. You know. 30 years ago I was just out of seminary, and the most intellectual thing I wanted to read was sports illustrated except for sermon preparation. But what I've come to understand, especially in these last 8 years, is we've been contending for where we're moving.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: This this foundation
Jeff Greenway: is absolutely essential.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: And and you know you're you're you're helping honestly a lot of folks who are functionally probably more Baptist than Westland to come to understand that there's a second half of the Gospel.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Jeff Greenway: It's not just getting saved. It's getting sanctified. It's not just being accepted by Jesus is becoming like Jesus. And and I think I think, to put that in readily accessible, understandable terms. You know, to use the the media that's here to use, podcast to have conversations like this, I I think it's gonna be very important for episcopal leaders. In the next 2 years.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. And I appreciate the way that you've highlighted this again, people will characterize us as saying like, this is a homophobic move or something. But I've been to multiple conferences. IW. We were present. WI. Wasn't at every one of Wbs was president. Everyone. Nobody came back and said, boy. They're really harping on the sexuality question. But it's like those 5 points that you said. And I I like to highlight the 1st one you said about the nature of the authority of Scripture. Why is.
Jeff Greenway: Authority. Scripture. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, tell talk to me about that a little bit more, and and how you understand that, and why that's important.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah, you know, Paul says that all Scripture is God breathed and useful, you know, for instruction and for training. All you know. It's it's just foundational for us. But let. So let me, I would. Just, I'm gonna answer this, how? How? I answer this personally, okay, great.
Jeff Greenway: You know, this is this is my study Bible.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: Every day
Jeff Greenway: had to have a rebound a couple of times. Been using it since 1981.
Jeff Greenway: And it's a spiritual diary for me. But when I'm reading the Scripture
Jeff Greenway: even this week, and I come across something in Scripture that doesn't match my experience.
Jeff Greenway: then my experience is wrong.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: And through the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, my experience become to mirror can be, can come to mirror. What is being shared with me in the Scripture. Okay, the purpose of the Scriptures is to point out our need for God. The purpose of the Scriptures, that is, is to name sin and announce grace. The purpose of the Scripture is that it's a sufficient rule of both faith and practice.
Jeff Greenway: Now, I tell people when I'm pastoring them.
Jeff Greenway: That you know that that if you listen carefully when somebody's reading the Scripture from the platform, if they say this is the word of the Lord.
Jeff Greenway: give them an extra hearing. If they say this contains the word of the Lord.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Jeff Greenway: That's where they've elevated experience to be the same as, or even more authoritative than, Scripture, you know. One of the things I think that we need to to unlearn
Jeff Greenway: is is Outler's quadrilateral.
Andy Miller III: Yes, indeed!
Jeff Greenway: I IA friend of mine, told me that before he died he regretted he'd ever help frame that, because people tend to look at experiences superior or equal to Scripture, and that's just not the case. As a pastor I would teach our people. You know. You've heard this old this old phrase before a text without a context, as a pretext or a proof text.
Jeff Greenway: I would teach them hermeneutics. I would teach them to identify what kind of literature it is who wrote it? To whom it was written. What was the context, so that we could take the truth of that context which is applicable in any day.
Jeff Greenway: and place it into our lives, and it works for us. So you know the high view of Scripture. I also tell my people don't ever check your brain at the door. Listen carefully to what I'm teaching. Listen carefully to who's preaching to you. If you have questions, dare to ask the questions, and if those people can't answer it, they ought to be honest. Say, you know what I don't know. But let's find out together.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, thank, you.
Jeff Greenway: Searching, because you know all the Scripture. The whole Council, from Genesis, one to the end of the revelation, is authoritative for us, and it's rich, and it's life changing.
Jeff Greenway: you know. I I sometimes people say, Well, I just don't understand.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: Bible. And I I learned a long time ago. I said,
Jeff Greenway: do you ever use a you ever use a colander? And they would say, Yeah, I say, do you ever wash a colander?
Jeff Greenway: Yeah, they'll say, yes. Do you ever hold much water in a colander?
Jeff Greenway: They'll say no, I said, but when you run underwater, you know it's clean.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: The Scripture is like a spigot of water, and your brain and heart and life is like a colander. Keep running it under the spigot of Scripture. So your life is clean. So now. So one of the you know, I think this is really important.
Jeff Greenway: because it was a diminished view of Scripture
Jeff Greenway: that led to everything. We've just walked out of.
Andy Miller III: Indeed.
Jeff Greenway: And and it, and because of a diminished view of Scripture, a diminished view of Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: Because of a diminished view of Jesus in Scripture a diminished view of sin, that sin is more societal, and if you change the society. You can save people.
Jeff Greenway: you know. So I, you know, to teach people to read exegetically, not isageetically, to teach them to rightly divide Scripture, to teach them basic hermeneutics.
Jeff Greenway: I I. When I was early in ministry, I thought it was too much for people. I quickly learned it wasn't enough for people.
Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Greenway: And I I just, you know, every week of my pastoral life
Jeff Greenway: I've taught Bible study verse by verse.
Jeff Greenway: you know, to to people, and to teach them how to use the book, so is it is. This is sufficient rule of faith and practice, and
Jeff Greenway: my obedience to Scripture has taught me obedience to Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: which has changed my life.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Amen, Jeff, are you comfortable with the language of inerrancy.
Andy Miller III: like.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah. I'm a point in Chicago.
Andy Miller III: Statement.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah. More like the Chicago statement, not some of the other.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure, you know not that my interpretation is inherent. But yeah.
Jeff Greenway: Right? Right? So I I do think that I I there when I we were chairing the the next step working group for the Wca. About the discipline.
Jeff Greenway: There were some things we deliberately left undone.
Jeff Greenway: because I think that in the next couple of general conferences it would be very helpful to put together blue ribbon
Jeff Greenway: you know, panels to kind of come back with a with a with some kind of a a social principle statement from an evangelical perspective and a and a statement. You know, you know, about the Scripture in for our day, because, you know, it's not uniform across the board. Right? So yeah, I'm I'm comfortable with the Chicago statement. I'm not comfortable with some of the others. I've heard.
Andy Miller III: That's right. Yeah. I mean being President Asbury Seminary. The statement there says, without air and all that it affirms, which is a classic in errandist position. So but it's just. It's helpful. And I'm not one to suggest that that needs to be included at at this point or ever. But also I think there needs to be an openness for people who are willing to say that God hasn't made a mistake in His revelation.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah, no, God didn't make any mistakes, including you and me. Andy.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Jeff Greenway: Now, now we've made some mistakes, because.
Andy Miller III: For sure.
Jeff Greenway: Nature. But God hasn't made any mistakes. So yeah, I I really think that
Jeff Greenway: once again, back to this role of teaching office, I think our bishops, you know it's interesting. 8 years ago, 10 years ago, I put a I put a resolution in front of the West Ohio Conference asking that our Bishop would reclaim the teaching office of the church and address some things, and that thing got shouted down by the by the left
Jeff Greenway: and got defeated
Jeff Greenway: because they did not want the Bishop teaching.
Jeff Greenway: I want our bishops teaching us.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Jeff Greenway: I want to hear
Jeff Greenway: from an apostolic perspective what they have to say. Yeah, you know, they're the spiritual covering under which we operate. I want to hear what they have to say, and and I'm excited about the vicious we have at this point.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah.
Andy Miller III: it's been a real joy to to see the way they're working. And I think we it's been a. It's been a unifying force for us. And of course, a teaching role, I think, is so important. Oh, I'm gonna pivot a little bit here, Jeff, because you you said something earlier. I want to pick up on. That's my next question in in somebody who's serving various leadership positions, but also particularly at the local church, and so much of what you're doing, and being a senior pastor is helping people learn to change. And I think this is an amazing opportunity in the global Methodist church
Andy Miller III: to change some things that need to change like to not just turn around. And nobody knows that there's that we've adapted. And all of a sudden we have this opportunity to pivot, so are there some things we need to unlearn? In order to be who God's calls to be? Or are there things that we should learn? Maybe they're one of the same.
Jeff Greenway: Well, you know I I brushed upon this before I do. I do think we need to learn to trust again.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Jeff Greenway: Trust the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding and all your ways acknowledge him, and he'll make your path straight. I don't think we have trouble trusting God. I think we have trouble trusting people right now, and let me just say and you've alluded to this. I've been in the room
Jeff Greenway: for the last 8 years, when
Jeff Greenway: every consequential decision has been made to get us here.
Jeff Greenway: Not once, not once
Jeff Greenway: did I see anybody act in a nefarious or untrustworthy manner.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Jeff Greenway: Not once.
Jeff Greenway: And so so I think one of the things we have to unlearn also.
Jeff Greenway: or to unlearn. To be able to trust again is we have to dismantle
Jeff Greenway: are
Jeff Greenway: the weaponry we've developed to fight in church.
Jeff Greenway: you know, Rob Renfro and and Tom Lambrecht just sent out an article last week, basically sun setting good news. And I thought it was such a helpful article. You know it was ironic. It was. It was, you know it was very clear that they're coming to an end of something. They're laying down their swords, you know. The prophet Isaiah, and Micah said that the day would come when God's people would beat their swords into plowshares, which meant the time came for them to stop
Jeff Greenway: fighting and start planting again, and and I I think the time has come for us to be careful to stop fighting, because if
Jeff Greenway: if all we do is fight, we will turn the weapons on that we've used on one another, and we will not get out of the gate.
Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah.
Jeff Greenway: If we will plant again.
Jeff Greenway: if we will understand that a lot of the stuff that we've been doing the last several years, not planting the movement, but but to get out and to pay attention to things that's been a distraction away from Mission. And let's take all of that energy and shift it to evangelism. Let's take all of that energy and shift it to church planting and church multiplication. Let's take all of that energy and and help
Jeff Greenway: our churches understand that it's not just about getting people to come and do things in your church building. It's training them to go and be missionaries wherever they live, or work, or study, or play.
Andy Miller III: Amen! Amen!
Jeff Greenway: And I just had lunch yesterday, actually, with an 87 year old.
Jeff Greenway: Layperson was the dentist for the Ohio State University football team for years, and and he and I were at a restaurant and he pulled out. He he's the most natural born evangelist I've ever seen, and I watched him evangelize our waitress. I was ashamed
Jeff Greenway: that he was so far ahead of me, and what he was doing with her, and then he pulled something out, and he showed me something that he does with anybody who will listen. Can I? Can I give? Can I offer you a gift? And he just kind of walks through the simple presentation of the Gospel. I asked him, I said, Will you come to annual conference next year, and will you teach this to a thousand people for me.
Andy Miller III: Wow, yeah.
Jeff Greenway: Will you? Will you bring this resource? I'll I'll get somebody to come up. I'll come up on the stage, and you can walk me through it as if I'm the waitress standing at the table. Would you cause? We've forgotten how to do this now, Andy? Not everybody has the spiritual gifts of evangelism. This guy has the spiritual gift of evangelism. Right? He just I mean, he'll never see somebody without wondering if they're going to be in heaven someday.
Jeff Greenway: you know, but but he has that gift, but all of us are called to be witnesses, and all of us here have to be ready to give an accounting for the hope we have, and to do so with gentleness and respect. And I watched him do that in an amazing way, and I want all the clergy, and lay people from Allegheny West to see what that looks like, because it's not difficult.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Now, Jeff, I need to interrupt you, because you, I think people had a flashback to the Umc all of a sudden, because you said, I want to bring this guy up on the stage, and I'm going to be the waitress.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: I believe.
Jeff Greenway: So please tell me.
Andy Miller III: Going to be a waiter.
Jeff Greenway: Waiter, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Okay, there, you go.
Jeff Greenway: I met I meant I will be the example. You can walk through this. Thank you very much, Andy. I appreciate.
Andy Miller III: The idea of Jeff Greenway being a waitress.
Jeff Greenway: No, thank you. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Be a great waiter.
Jeff Greenway: You know, that's gonna be a sound bite in a reel someplace in the next couple of next couple of weeks.
Andy Miller III: I'm sorry. I the the childhood, you know, the La. I interacted with you most when I was 23 years old, and maybe that descended back on me. So forgive me, there.
Jeff Greenway: Well, you know there's a little junior high boy in every adult man, so.
Andy Miller III: Right, thanks.
Jeff Greenway: Letting him out for a couple seconds.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I think. Oh, back in back seminary present role. Here I am. Okay.
Jeff Greenway: So 1 1. i mentioned this before. I do think that we need to unlearn some flawed theological concepts.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes.
Jeff Greenway: And I will not use the Wesleyan Quadrilateral to explain how we work out our work out our salvation. It wasn't Wesleyan.
Jeff Greenway: It was a construct of a great Wesley scholar, who later in his life regretted it. I I think that if we can teach each other to start with Scripture
Jeff Greenway: start with Scripture and move from there. I think it'd be helpful.
Andy Miller III: That's those are exactly the type of things I think we need to unlearn and learn. I love the emphasis on trust, too, that you started with. And you, you also made a big push there for the like, the evangelistic role that we all have. As we interact with our waiters and waitresses at the same time. So we have
Andy Miller III: approximately 3 billion people in the world who have no access to the gospel at this point.
Andy Miller III: So how would you give voice to this crisis? And I really think it's a crisis and mobilize local churches which make up the Gmc. To be responsive to that need.
Jeff Greenway: Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: So one of the pastors in our conference is Steve Cordle.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Jeff Greenway: And Steve has been leading the church multiplication and church planting initiative.
Jeff Greenway: And you know, the goal moving forward is for us to plant 3% of our churches a year around the world.
Jeff Greenway: because statistically, more people come to new churches than existing churches.
Jeff Greenway: You know, new churches for new people group. So I think I think part of the part of the part of the role is to begin to to ring the bell and set the expectation that the time has come to stop being in holy huddles. But to start thinking strategically about our communities.
Jeff Greenway: I I'm still waiting for some, but we've we've we've started launched 8 churches so far in Allegheny West. We have several more that are about to become public, and I'm still waiting for somebody in an existing congregation to come and complain that we're planting a church near them because they've had the neighborhood for a long time, and there are other people there, you know. So I. So I think that one is to set the expectation. The second is to provide teaching and training.
Jeff Greenway: We're we're sending dozens of people through training for church planting, you know. And actually, we're in. Our conference is in partnership with the Kenya Ethiopia Annual Conference, and I've just been in conversation with their president pro Tem. Wilton, Adongo, and Steve Cordle and Steve's organization. The river network is Gonna has a staff person in Kenya that after their annual conference. Next year we're gonna start a church planting. We're gonna have a 2 day church planting and multiplication workshop
Jeff Greenway: in Kenya for all their pastors and lay leaders. I think the the piece that
Jeff Greenway: that you know, obviously reclaiming personal evangelism.
Jeff Greenway: understanding all of us are witnesses, but giving people the mechanism to operationalize that for new places for new people, I think, is crucial. I I know that the the Mission Evangelism, church multiplication and Disaster Response General Commission has been working very hard on identifying people to reach unreach people, to go to unreached people groups, and if they put out a hundred 57 Page Roadmap.
Jeff Greenway: and the and a significant part of that is related to that. And then the last 50 pages or so are about identifying apostolic giftings and people.
Jeff Greenway: You know I'm I'm mindful of the fact that God is doing something in amazing ways. And and we we need to be careful not to get in the way of that. So let me let me tell you what I mean. Some some of you have heard of Craig Groeschel. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: he was a. He was a United Methodist.
Andy Miller III: I know it. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: And went and wanted to plant a United Methodist church, and the Bishop of the Area said, I'm sorry we don't do that, and he left the meeting went, planted life church right. He had an apostolic gifting that didn't fit in the box, and one of the things I love about our new church planting initiative is that anyone can start a church.
Jeff Greenway: anyone.
Jeff Greenway: And and and when they come to us our job is to be receiving and welcoming them, connecting them with a circuit of, or district of churches for for prayer and and support, and for to send people to help that might want to help launch this initiative, and then it the the risk is they may not stay global Methodist. That's a risk. I'm willing to take.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: A kingdom. This is a kingdom question, not a command and control question.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: And you know, on the Cabinet we have in Allegheny West. We have 5 of us.
Jeff Greenway: We're former district superintendents. I joke that I've been in recovery for 20 years from being a superintendent. But but that said, all 5 of us have had to have the conversation. This is going to be messy, as this unfolds.
Jeff Greenway: and we have to be comfortable with the ambiguity of messiness of an apostolic movement to identify people with apostolic gifts, and release them to use them rather than squelch them.
Jeff Greenway: I think that's going to be essential, especially for the unreached people groups, and especially for church planting. As we move forward.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, and to to bless those who are have moved in the other direction. You say that same story. You might know Bishop Keith, coward of the Free Methodist Church the exact same story. He came back and he said to his conference, I'll go anywhere. I'll I'll plan a church anywhere. I just met with him a couple of weeks ago, and they he wasn't approved. They wouldn't let him do it. So he went. He had an apostolic gifting, and planted a church, a very effective, strong church in Columbus, Georgia. And then.
Andy Miller III: you know, Free Methodist Church was willing to say, Yeah, we'll take you in. And now he's their bishop. So it's really interesting how that how that works, you know, one of the things, I think, is an interesting opportunity for the global Methodist Church is to engage the broader evangelical world. Not that that's our goal, not like our like. Our goal is evangelism. And bringing this Wesleyan flavor to the world, not just to church. But what gift do you believe the global Methodist church can be to the broader evangelical world.
Jeff Greenway: So you and I know that there are. There are pockets of Wesleyan holiness folks all over. Yeah, but the larger evangelical world is predominantly reformed.
Andy Miller III: Correct. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: And so I, I think that the global Methodist church, as it continues to develop.
Jeff Greenway: can develop a a a Wesleyan expression of this larger evangelical world that would have standing to be able to, not not to compete, but to be a counter to the reformed movement that really governs most of our campus ministries and most of the publishing in the world. I mean, it's really, you know, we joked earlier that certain people will be in heaven, too. We're we're all gonna get. We're all gonna be in heaven that believe in Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: We just have different theological constructs. And I I really think that we have something distinctive to offer. The world, just like Wesley, had something distinctive to offer the world in the 17 hundreds, and I also, as we present that Wesleyan perspective, especially the full continuum of grace. I think that we need to concentrate, concentrate on what we are for and not what we are against.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Jeff Greenway: We are for a whole lot more
Jeff Greenway: than what we're against, and you and I, you and I were schooled in the in Holiness tradition, and you and I know this very well, and and it's a it can easily revert into a litmus test of do's and don'ts.
Andy Miller III: For sure.
Jeff Greenway: You know I joke, don't drink or swear, smoke or chew, and never date the girls who do but but what we're but our expression of faith is so much more than what we're against.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Yeah.
Jeff Greenway: So, and then the last piece. I think I think that because of the immediate size.
Jeff Greenway: as we begin to mature, I think we can have a unifying
Jeff Greenway: be a unifying force among. I'm not saying that we merge all together. But I I had lunch today with the president of Mount Vernon Nazarene University, and he's a brother. Yes, and and he's learning from what we've been through to help rectify envy. And you, as well as to help the Nazarenes keep from going where our former denomination went, and and I think that we have some strength to offer one of
Jeff Greenway: other, that I would be beneficial for the kingdom, not just in the States, but around the world. There are unreached places that we could strategize to reach
Jeff Greenway: back to the 3 billion people. Yes, that that I think we could do that together. It'd be a gift for everybody.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's a a beautiful way of thinking of of what God's called us to, and a part of our own mission
Andy Miller III: in that I love it. I think
Andy Miller III: some of us it's not just like to be in the club or to see like oh, well, they have all the publishing houses, and we want to be there. But I think there's a way that there. Ken Collins is a great chapter in his book, The Evangelical Moment, where he calls it the Wesley Wesleyan leavening
Andy Miller III: of Evangelicalism. And I resonate with a lot like that. There's there is an expression of victory over sin and the reality and promise of the Holy Spirit, and and the sanctifying grace that comes as a result of His presence in our life, that I think that we could provide that could make the
Andy Miller III: a church universal, stronger, and and maybe because of our method of the broad Methodist tradition and the United Methodism, the way that we have sadly let go of the Gospel. In some sectors it's prevented
Andy Miller III: Methodists and Wesleyans from having that voice. I'm hopeful that this could be a moment for that.
Andy Miller III: Jeff. I I won't continue my other questions. But is there anything else you want to say? Anything else you'd like to add, as we're closing out.
Jeff Greenway: I love Jesus.
Jeff Greenway: and I love the Church.
Andy Miller III: He made.
Jeff Greenway: And I want what's best for the church.
Jeff Greenway: and and I'm I'm hopeful about our future. I I think that if we will beat those swords into plowshares and plant again.
Jeff Greenway: I think there's no limit to what God will do.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Jeff Greenway: And and I really appreciate Andy, it's always good to get to see you again. It's been fun to watch you grow. And and also I'm praying for you as you're inaugurated in October.
Andy Miller III: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's amazing. I I'm all sorts of planning committees and things headed towards October. But it's amazing. Costa Rica comes before that. So I it's amazing how fast that's coming. We're praying for you as you, and thankful for your leadership that you are willing to step up and give the time. And and to Reynoldsburg, too, I think, like just our thanks to that community that was willing to support you as you took on these extra duties
Andy Miller III: to serve the Church as it's been emerging. It's a real, it's a real blessing. And we're thankful for people like you, Jeff, who paved the way for this moment.
Jeff Greenway: Thanks. I appreciate it.