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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
S02 E09 - Sustaining a Business
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Amy (she/her): Are you gonna make money, or are you just gonna end up chained to your desk for even more hours in the day?
Taking on more events doesn't mean you're making more money.
that's the one sentence answer.
You might think photography's all about the technical stuff, the gear, the settings. Some of it is, and we'll get into it. But the harder part is what your brain and nervous system do the second you try to make something. The overthinking, the voice that swears you're getting it all wrong. Some weeks we're deep in the craft, some weeks we're deep in your head.
Either way, it's less about the camera and more about the person holding it. Welcome to this week's episode of The Focus Trap.
[00:00:34] Building a Business Before Social Media
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Casey (she/her): So you and I have had this conversation about business building between us multiple times, but something that came up once, 'cause you've been doing this for a while, is I wanna ask you, as somebody who's been photographing dog sports since, mm, approximately the Stone Age, how did you build a business before social media?
Amy (she/her): my dad likes to joke that he's older than dirt, so I can't be
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): Well, maybe I ca- maybe Stone Age is newer than dirt,
Casey (she/her): I think so.
Amy (she/her): applies. Okay. Um, yeah, I have been doing this a long time, 25 years, over 25 years. There was no social media when I
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): dog sports, the audience is delivered to you. Like, I don't have to go out and find customers.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): to a show, and I have the privilege of being able to photograph them at the event.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): club does all the hard work in that respect, in terms of finding my audience. They have found my audience and put them in front of me and gone, "Here you go."
in terms of building an audience, there, I didn't need to. And I think that's part of why I found it relatively easy to, to go into business doing this, is because if I had had to build a, build an audience right from the beginning, I think it would've been dead in the water.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): think I would've kept going.
that was the trick was I, I was where the audience was.
Casey (she/her): Sorry, my neighbor lets her dogs free range the neighborhood, and they're running around out in front of the house.
I think that's a great point that the shooting you do, like the audience is already there, you're showing up. I remember us having a conversation about how even dog sports photography itself was kind of a new concept, so to speak.
But the audience was already there, so you only had to sell the product versus like for me now, I have to find the audience, warm up the audience, sell the audience.
Amy (she/her): so taking photos at agility trials was not a new thing. It was film. photographers would bring back, four by six prints that they'd done at the one-hour photo. That was how I did my first event. So what was new for me, what I was bringing to the table was digital, because digital SLRs were just coming out. the Canon D30 had been released, and I was, comfortable with tech, and I was married to a software developer, so between the two of us we could figure anything out.
I shot my first agility trial on film after the first one I would go home, cull through all the photos, and only keep the best ones.
I mean, that was from day one. I never even gave a thought to, like, just posting everything. That didn't make any sense to me. and for at least a few, Ben came with me and would run the computer. So we had them divided by class and jump height, I think. So, and then at the morning briefing the, the club would say, "Yeah, and we have a photographer here," These are small events.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): with the guy sitting at the picnic table with the computer pretty obvious.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): So
Casey (she/her): was there any, I don't know if hesitation is the right word, but was there any hesitation in getting people to buy digital versus print that early on? Was that a hurdle you had to navigate?
Amy (she/her): know because I didn't sell digitals
Casey (she/her): Okay, so you were still... But I mean, like, when you did finally move to selling digitals, or was that far enough down the road that people unders- Oh,
Amy (she/her): the road.
Casey (she/her): okay. Okay.
Amy (she/her): down the road.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): I, I did not start selling digital... I don't even remember when I made that transition, but for the least the first five years, it was all prints.
It was 4x6s,
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): 8x10s, and photo collages eventually. But, uh, I think year two I started doing collages.
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): and so it was all familiar. Yes, I was taking the photo with a digital camera,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): the, the way they were being delivered was still the way people understood it. But they weren't getting them there on site.
They did have to order, pay for them, and then I would ship them to them. But
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): physical prints.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): they were able to see the photos. eventually what we did was we had, a computer and then an external monitor And that was set up, and then mirrored to the laptop
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Ben could drive the, the mouse and show
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): click through and get to their photos.
And then we had paper order forms, write down an image number, what
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): you know,
Casey (she/her): Oh, okay. Yeah
Amy (she/her): I had an actual merchant account for processing credit cards for many years.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): ... There was no Square, no Stripe, no
Casey (she/her): back when
Amy (she/her): All
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): is there was no other option. So
Casey (she/her): Right. Yeah
Amy (she/her): software.
We just ran a photo browser. So, you know, it
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): I don't think it was Photo Mechanic, but it, it was something where, you know, we just had folders down the side, and
Casey (she/her): Right?
Amy (she/her): through and up that person's photos and, or that class or that jump height.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): and, and it was very low-key. it was more technical than most dog sports photographers, but it was still very low tech compared to
Casey (she/her): Right. Yeah. Which I think it's fascinating that you were bridging this gap in technology for people. Like, Ben was running the computer, not people came over and looked around for themselves kind of thing. And, like, it was ordering digital prints but still being shipped physical prints. there's a, a, a marketing lesson here of, knowing where your customer's at versus, like, where you're at versus wh- what you want to sell them, and making your life as easy as possible.
a lot of people maybe aren't comfortable navigating a computer or don't ... Oh, I, like, I remember the era where, what the fuck do I do with digital prints? Like, I don't, I don't know what to do with digital images 'cause photo albums on the computer didn't exist in the way they do now, and, you know, you didn't have your phone in your pocket with your photos on it.
it makes perfect sense as soon as you said it, that you were shooting in digital but still shipping physical.
yeah, I kind of forgot that whole era existed. So how you, like, problem solve of I have this, the customer wants this, and then kind of bridging that gap in the best way possible for your business and, like, your capacity.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Part of the reason why I didn't start selling digitals, I certainly wasn't doing it right away, was that exact problem. Nobody knew what to do with digital photos. I knew what to do with them as a photographer. I knew how to organize them and, and print from them, but that's a different thing than over your bunch of digital images to someone who, you
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): pictures of their dog, but what are they gonna do with them?
I don't sell digitals exclusively,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): are certainly the biggest piece of what I sell these days. But I waited a really long time before I started even offering them because there wasn't an infrastructure and the
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): tech knowledge that people needed. I was
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): support person. Like, y-
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): I'm not gonna deal with you emailing me and saying, "Now what do I do with it?" If
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): what to do with a digital photo, then you should be ordering a print, and that's
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): them. So,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): um, it is a whole different ballgame. Now,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): say also
[00:07:46] Why Amy Still Sells at the Show
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Amy (she/her): the reason I am still in business is because I still sell at the show,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): that is a piece that most photographers out there are missing.
And I'm not saying just for the national events, even though that's what I do now, but I have sold at shows in person all along. Because the few times when I try and sell online only, the difference in sales is massive,I will make more even if I have to pay someone to run my booth than if I just do after-show sales
Casey (she/her): I, for our audience who could not see the dumbfounded look on my face, it never dawned on me that people weren't selling at the show. You're telling me there are dog sport photographers who shoot their show, leave, and then are only selling ... That is such a missed opportunity. Like,
Amy (she/her): Exactly
Casey (she/her): connection, this is basic seller psychology, like connection is part of what sells, and then also like that excitement and the anticipation.
I think about like dock diving photos,
If I wait a week, I'm gonna have talked myself out of that. But if you show me that photo in the moment while I'm like loving that my dog just got their record longest jump, Abso-fucking-lutely I'm buying on the spot
Amy (she/her): Okay, let's, let's clarify though. photos don't go right
Casey (she/her): E- yeah,
Amy (she/her): camera
Casey (she/her): yeah.
Amy (she/her): computer.
Casey (she/her): Okay, yes.
Amy (she/her): booth, and I don't expect anybody to be doing this,
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): come f- minutes after you get your,
Casey (she/her): True.
Amy (she/her): personal record
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Okay
Amy (she/her): do not want ever to set that expectation because that is getting people into trouble
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): them feel bad about their turnaround times. So my point about selling on-site is not that it's
Casey (she/her): But yeah,
but there's still that excitement that... No, that's a good clarifying point because, like, I just was looking at in portraits and the pop-up work that I do, one of the things that I want to move to sooner than later is to start shooting tethered to my laptop
So like in my brain and what I shoot, being able to shoot tethered and show people, a rough look at what we're coming up with is different than what you're doing where like, yeah, the volume. And so that's, that's a good point. But there is still that element of like, I'm here in the festivities of the weekend.
I'm excited 'cause maybe I wasn't even gonna buy pictures this weekend, but they got their longest jump. Of course I'm gonna go buy some pictures because I want the record of that. That is just mind-boggling to me that photographers aren't selling at the event
Amy (she/her): Yeah. I, I understand it if you're getting started. It's a hard thing to do.
There were a few events where Ben came, the five-week-old baby came, and I was shooting a national agility event, my
Casey (she/her): But
Amy (she/her): national agility event. And, um, I was breastfeeding. I don't know if this is gonna stay in the cut,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): I was breastfeeding, and it was a nightmare of logistics,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): we made it through.
And then I turned around and did it three weeks later and same thing, only it was not the husband, it was Grandma and Grandpa, my parents, that came with, and
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): eight-week-old baby.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that was wild, but, um, I guess it proves I can do anything. I don't
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so,
I understand that, you aren't necessarily making any money or you don't feel like you can justify paying someone. I mean, find someone who's just a buddy that is gonna be there that could be in your booth and is tech savvy enough that could show pictures. for me, there's always at least a day lag between when we take the photo and when it appears in the booth
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): cull and make sure that it's just the best of the best. the way I did local events if I didn't have someone to run my booth, 20, 25 years ago, generally the same people showed up every day of the event.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): was a three-day agility trial, they would run on Friday, they'd run on Saturday, and they'd come back and run on Sunday.
Well, I don't need three days of photos of... It's all the same equipment. Yes,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): are different, but I, I would shoot for the first two and sell on the third.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): occasionally there would be a new person and if they told me, I would try and, you know, slip into the ring and, and get some photos of them. and occasionally there were people that were disappointed: "Oh, I didn't realize you weren't shooting today." Generally, I would see them again down the road at some
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): and then they would remember that...
Casey (she/her): This is how it works, yeah
Amy (she/her): "I remembered that you only shot the first two days and that I needed to make sure I entered at least one of those." Uh, they'll, they adjust.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): adjust.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): really valuable thing about running a booth is you get to hear all of that feedback about the photos.
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh.
Amy (she/her): You don't get feedback if all they're doing is shopping online. All, the only
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): is they bought or they didn't.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): assuming you know that they saw them or not.
But, you know, you don't get feedback like that like you do in the moment. When I'm saying feedback, I'm not talking about, "Oh, these are shit." I'm talking about, "Oh my God, this is amazing," and, "Oh, look at this. This is so funny."
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): valuable dopamine on the planet. And if,
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): else, you are missing out on that if you are not running a booth at an
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, that's... Yeah, to me it seemed fairly obvious
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): mean, I had a website. I'm sure I was posting them somewhere. I,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): it's been a long time. I don't
Casey (she/her): Yeah, a lot of details blurring together
Amy (she/her): yes. But it didn't make sense to me to only put them online.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): and I truly believe that the only reason I am still in business, if I was trying to sell online only, it was a, it would be a no-go.
Now,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): interesting around COVID because once shows were finally back, because, you know, obviously for the first 11 months of 2020 I had no shows,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): So finally getting to December and, getting to go to the, AKC Invitational, I did not have a booth there. I did
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): on site. I
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): QR codes set up so they could get on the mailing list and be notified when the photos went up,
selling online in those circumstances worked great
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): nobody, everybody was just happy to be back to dog shows
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): were photos that were there at all.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. And we were tuned into that, like, workaround lifestyle that like, "Oh, I can have this service, I just have to kinda do it a different way than, than usual." Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): But, you know, as soon as I could reliably have a crew, both photographers and salespeople,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): then, you know, I was back to it as soon as I could.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Interesting. Okay
Amy (she/her): think that is the biggest place where photographers are missing out,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): if they're not running a booth.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.there is a balance of logistics and capacity versus marketing like the, the truths of marketing. Like, as much as we knock marketing and scammy sales psychology, our human brains work a certain way. There are psychological patterns and behaviors that drive buying,
people buy with emotion, and then they justify it with logic. And if you're not catching them for the sale while they're emotional about it,
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): if they get their images a week later,
The, the emotion has died down, they can logic themselves out of the purchase really fast.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): Interesting.
Amy (she/her): I want them to buy in person, A, because I know that that's gonna get result in better sales. They're gonna get a lower price, but they also are getting a human who is there that can walk them through the order.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): all of my stuff is set up on iPads. It's organized by dog name. When you log in, if your last name matches the last name of the dog according to the run order then it's going to immediately pull up your dog's photos.
They
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): for anything.
also I have people in the booth that can help you. I don't have people at your house that can help you when you're trying to navigate
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): an order on my website,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): website is different.
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): you know, whether it's Shutterfly or Pixieset or any of these,
Casey (she/her): Yeah。Yeah
Amy (she/her): and poor customers that have to navigate all of those differences.
Casey (she/her): Right. also there are people who are less technologically aware. I mean, how do you hold their hand and walk them through an order three weeks later from a thousand miles away?
So, like, there's that whole aspect too. we've talked about selling,
I know you sell pre-orders. Is that normal and/or are those people all, like, returning customers? Like, I'm kind of curious the, the pre-orders in this whole conversation too.
Amy (she/her): So that's an interesting one because I am very reluctant to take people's money if they aren't 100% sure that they want the photos. I'm always a little skeptical of even offering it. reason why I started offering pre-orders was I was, um... So many things started with NAIDC Championships for me. That was my first national. That was the one where I had a five-week-old baby. I was at NAIDC Championships. I was setting up my booth. I, I had not taken a picture yet from the event because it was starting the next day. I was setting up my booth, and someone comes with their credit card and says, "Just take my money." And you I'm sure the look on my face was like, "What are you saying?" And it was somebody I knew, somebody I had met. I had taken pictures of their dog a- at the previous NAIDC Championships, so it, they weren't an unknown quantity. But I still... The idea that somebody would give me money for pictures that literally didn't even exist yet was, um, was mind-blowing. so I was reluctant to get into selling digitals. this was another thing. I'm reluctant to, to get into doing pre-orders and, yet I'm, I've been doing it. I don't make
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): amount.
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): make the majority of my sales on pre-orders,
Casey (she/her): It was, yeah
Amy (she/her): very clear in the wording of how I put those.
You can get the same price if you come to the booth.
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): no
Casey (she/her): Incentive.
Amy (she/her): There's no incentive. The only incentive is if you just wanna, you know you want them, you just want it off your to-do list, fine. I will take your money. I am happy to do that. You will get your photos. they usually end up coming back to the booth and wanting to see what they're getting anyway.
But don't ever want pre-orders to be the, the best way to get photos because I still think the best experience is in the booth interacting
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): or my salespeople, who are all friends. Nikki is the one who's basically in charge of the booth when I'm not there, and she's fantastic.
She, she does everything, um,
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): make the crew lunches. So, there's that. That's
Casey (she/her): love Nikki.
Amy (she/her): piece of keeping...
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh
Amy (she/her): Nikki and, uh, yeah.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): takes g- really good care of us.
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh. Yep
[00:18:43] What Makes Someone Buy Another Photo?
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Casey (she/her): So then I'm curious, my next question on this is, this is a realm where, and you've mentioned this, that like people do these competitions over and over again.
I've seen this conversation in like dog sports groups where like people are like, "Great, I've seen my dog. I've got five pictures of my dog jumping. Do I need more?" How, how do you bridge that gap over time? And I would imagine you get people who come back with a new dog, 'cause I know a lot of these people have multiple dogs, or as one retires they'll bring...
So not so much the people, not necessarily the s-
Amy (she/her): answer my question
Casey (she/her): okay. Yes
Amy (she/her): me talk, 'cause you just hit both of them.
Casey (she/her): OK。
Amy (she/her): the biggest thing is the emotional connection. what is significant about that weekend with that dog? new dogs, baby dogs. I don't see baby dogs so much anymore because, again, only national events, but, weekend trials, there's always baby dogs.
My favorite classes to, to photograph were the novice classes because you never knew what was gonna happen. They're hard. They're actually the hardest to photograph because you don't know what's gonna happen. You
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): those dogs are gonna go. So they were the hardest ones to shoot in a lot of ways, even though the courses are very basic. But, you often got the best pictures 'cause it was
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): it was a circus
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): though in some ways are the experienced handlers with new dogs who haven't entered the first trial as soon as the dog is eligible, like age eligible to,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): They've waited, and that dog runs it like it's a masters level dog,
Yeah, yeah. Um, and then so you got the baby dogs, and then you have the dogs that are retiring or close to it, the, the you never know when it's gonna be your last run with that dog, that kind
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): Um, you've got those two emotional bookends of a whole career
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): are very powerful incentives for people to buy photos.
With national events, there's that significance of it being a national event,
Casey (she/her): Right. Okay
Amy (she/her): to qualify generally. For a lot of them, they have to qualify to be there. So just getting to the show is a big deal, and so then having photos as a commemorative thing. it's like more like a vacation, so it's like
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): Canyon rather than the hill in your backyard.
Casey (she/her): Okay.
Amy (she/her): yeah,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): There's that significance of just the event itself, like it's
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): time at AKC Nationals, or you won AKC Nationals, or,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): any All sorts of emotional reasons that get tied up in a national event
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): get at a local event.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): you may have to work a little harder at a local, but again, I think sell on site. You gotta sell ... Because
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): aren't doing that.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): sell on site, you'll, you'll clean up, I
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
that makes sense having the different kinds of, bookends, the different kinds of emotional things, and how for you, national, like, becomes another one of those markers that kind of drives the sale. But like you said, even at local events, there's still a bunch of variety within that.
And then also, like,
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): I know there are people like me who are just obsessed with their dogs and can't have too many pictures of their dogs, but you have to catch me while I'm excited because I already have a million pictures of my dog.
Oh, God, you know what just popped into my head, is when you go to those tourists, here's why even at local events you should be selling on site, is when you go to those tourist events where they, like, make everybody do the photo If you're ever in Northern Virginia, there's a place called the Ray Caverns.
You have to go. before you even walk into them, you, stop and they take a little picture on a green screen, and then when you walk out an hour later, there's somebody there with, a print proof.
And, they literally actually, print the whole package, I was just fascinated by the math on how that works for them, 'cause you don't even have to wait for it to print. How much shit are they selling? Because you just did the thing, and now they're there with the image ready to appeal to the thing.
Amy (she/her): I can't walk past a picture of my dog,
Spy was doing confirmation. He showed at the Great Dane National a couple times, and there was a a candid photographer there.
he does Fast Cat, there have been times where there has been somebody photographing him that's not me,
and I don't even care if it takes three weeks, but I am watching the website like a hawk.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): You know, I'm gonna buy no matter what, but I know I am in that top, you know, whatever percentage of people.
but I think that's part of 'cause I'm a photographer, and I will just take anything and, and all of it. So, um,
Casey (she/her): that makes sense. Yeah
Amy (she/her): but yeah,you are walking away from, from that excitement, that emotional connection if you're, if you're not
Casey (she/her): If you're waiting. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
[00:23:23] You Don’t Own Social Media
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Casey (she/her): bringing it back to social media then, because this is something we've talked about, this is something I know you're working on. I'm not even 100% sure what my question is, but, like, do you see a difference in your sales using social media to promote Great Dane being at events, or is that more another aspect of, like, post-event reminder that people still have a chance to buy?
Amy (she/her): I have always used it mostly as a post-event reminder that the photos are up. which used to work great. for all that there's Instagram and TikTok and all these other things, dog sportspeople for connected to the event itself are on Facebook.
Casey (she/her): All right
Amy (she/her): that, that still continues to be the place where I get the most it used to be that you could post a link and it would get seen by all the people who follow your page.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): then gradually they didn't like it when you would post a link 'cause it would take you away from Facebook,
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): you moved the link to the first comment.
Well, now Facebook has gotten even shittier about all this, and now you have to pay for more than two links a month. And I think it's like 15 bucks and you can post two links a month
if you want more than two, you then go up to $50 a month,
Casey (she/her): Yeah。Yeah
Amy (she/her): So now
everybody's like, "Oh my God, what are we gonna do?"
Casey (she/her): yeah. What the fuck? Yeah
Amy (she/her): it hasn't quite ... I, I think it's a big deal and I think it's shitty of Facebook, so
Casey (she/her): 100%, yes
Amy (she/her): not a big deal. It doesn't feel like world ending to me because I have other ways that I stay connected to the show and the people
I am collecting emails for a notification list for every event.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): the few shows that I do where I don't set up on site, so there's a, a Fast Cat trial I do in Minneapolis every, every summer, and I don't set up and sell there.
I just take pictures all three days. But I have a QR code slapped on my van, that you can get on the mailing list.
I don't think I've gotten who are buying in significant amounts because I posted the link to the
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): Facebook page. I really don't. I've
Casey (she/her): Right. Okay.
Amy (she/her): know.
Casey (she/her): And that makes sense. this is the power of, having the email list and why you should be collecting emails in kind of any way that you can. And I could see, like the way my brain works, I could see seeing your post and being like, "Oh, shit, I need to do that," and then opening my email to go find the link.
So, like, the people who are panicking about Facebook's absolutely epically shitty new policy of paying for links, like let's not beat around the bush on how shitty that is. But like, I think that's one of those things where, like, if you have done some of the legwork of good business building, you have a list that you own, like this is why business people harp on building a list.
Get the email, you own the list. You don't own social media, is then it could just make a post that says, "Hey, the email went out. The link is available. If you didn't get the email, please reach out to me," versus, "Here's the link. Go buy."
Amy (she/her): I am still sitting here thinking in real time, but wait a minute, it's 50 bucks a month. I, I have not looked extensively at what that gets you, so I'm,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): out of ignorance in terms of the, what the actual benefits were. But $50 a month is one order. If
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): one more order 12 times a year,
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that actually pays for itself really, really fast.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): people aren't getting the message about where to find photos and everything, and you need a link to go out,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): 50 bucks, actually, I hate to say it, but it's not that expensive.
Casey (she/her): Yeah,
Amy (she/her): It pays for itself really quickly. So I... I'm like r- right at this moment reconsidering.
I'm like, do I actually wanna... I wanna go
Casey (she/her): Right. Oh,
Amy (she/her): about it now.
Casey (she/her): yeah. Yeah, I know reach is a part of it. And this is like, I mean, this is a whole nother episode. This is maybe a hot take conversation in December, but this is where they catch us as small business owners is 50 bucks is one order. It's a small price to pay for the access of your audience, and it fucking sucks that social media is evolving into a pay-to-play game.
Like, I wanna just highlight for a second that, like, capitalism sucks, but both things are true. That like, but also like, yeah, run the math for your business of if you are not somebody who has had a strong email list and you have relied on posting links in your social media following and people checking in with you on Facebook, it may be time to adapt how you're doing business and/or that $50 might be more than worth it so that you continue to have access to the link
Amy (she/her): in shitification of Facebook and social media aside, I
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): issue paying for services that I can see the return on that investment. I, that, that makes sense to me, because then I have, then I have some sort of certainty about that I'm actually getting what I want out of the deal. I, I really struggle, and you know this, and I've talked about it here, I struggle with organic, content on social media And I'm working on an attitude adjustment, but I st- I just feel like it's such
Casey (she/her): It's a crap shoot
Amy (she/her): it's like gambling. It's a crapshoot, and in gambling the house always wins. And if I can tip the scales, maybe not all the way in my favor, but just a little bit, and I can prove that I'm getting a return on an investment of 50 bucks a month with Facebook,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): maybe that's worth it.
Casey (she/her): Right.
it's a good way to look at it. This is a little bit of a conversation you and I have had around, like, the value of organic social media versus paid ads, and I don't think this conversation involves dog sports photography that we've been having, but just as an aside here that
depending on what your business is.
For me as a portrait photographer, paid ads is something that I'm looking at. There are a couple of photographers I follow, and one of them has built an obscenely well-paying business off of doing a ton of in-person marketing, like going to every event he could for like the first year, and paid ads. And he doesn't post to social media.
He p- he pays for ads because he knows the math in his business, if I spend X money on ads, I get X return in clients. So there is... This falls in that logic as much as it is annoying as s- social media continues to change the rules. But you're right, it still does end up falling kind of towards that logic of why you would pay for ads versus organic social media.
This is kind of a vertical in between that, that's not an ad, it's not organic, but if it gets me more reach and keeps me having links,
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): maybe there's something to it.
Amy (she/her): Maybe there is.
Casey (she/her): I don't like it, but
Amy (she/her): I don't like it at all. However, I think every one of us needs to be really honest with ourselves and go, we knew it was going this direction.
Casey (she/her): yeah. Yes. Yeah
Amy (she/her): The fact that it was free in 2007 when it first came out, I mean,
Nobody looked at that and thought it's gonna be free forever and ever, amen. I mean, that
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): company that wants to make money. If they're
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): something,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): they wanna make money, and eventually
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): gonna wanna make more money. So this is predictable.
It's maddening, but it's predictable in a capitalist society, as you
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): so,
Casey (she/her): Exactly.
Amy (she/her): okay That was a turn I wasn't expecting us to take, but okay,
Casey (she/her): but
Amy (she/her): we
Casey (she/her): I, it's, well, and it is such a hot topic, the,
[00:31:11] The Slow Evolution of a Business
---
Casey (she/her): the paid link thing right now. I- every photography community I'm in, regardless of what the focus of that photography is, there are posts about that and the impact that it, that is having on people's business. And so this brings up, like, a great kind of transition here of the amount of like adaptability and trial and error and problem-solving that goes into staying in business, especially the same industry for this long of a time, I don't have a question, but can you speak to that?
Amy (she/her): been such a slow evolution, that I don't know even how to talk about it in some ways.
Casey (she/her): Het valt
Amy (she/her): just keep making small pivots Like, with this Facebook thing actually is a really good example. I haven't done anything paid. Uh, okay, I may have boosted a post once or twice back in 2020 for a webinar series I was running, and that seemed, that was a waste of money.
So that's why I'm skeptical of the whole new thing. But,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): I, I have not paid for social media. I have not paid for ads. it's just all been this slow evolution of reacting to what I'm seeing and reacting to what my customers want and reacting to what the shows are giving me, and deciding if what I'm doing makes sense or if I need to make a change. I,
Casey (she/her): Perfect.
Amy (she/her): know how to talk about it more than that, so
Casey (she/her): But I, that is perfect. That's the answer. Like, not that there's a right answer, I'm looking back over, I've ran multiple different businesses over, like, the last decade, and when I hit those pivot points in various businesses, part of it is the question of, am I willing to make this pivot?
Does this make sense? Do I have the skills, the tool, the capacity to make this pivot? 'Cause I think about, like, when you talk about these national shows and how long you're traveling, and I think about, like, my household and the way that my household runs and the demands of my house, national shows sound like a terrible business model for me.
Because the idea of having to be gone for a week to a few weeks at a time, not a fit for me.
Amy (she/her): I, and I can talk about that. I mean, I live in an area where the closest event to me is a little over an hour away.
but everything else is, is a three and a half hour drive. It's down to the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, it is leaving the h- the house for the weekend. it's hotels and it's meals out and, lots of gas And it's having a husband that was perfectly comfortable being a solo dad for the weekend.
that was a constant negotiation too, not in terms of fighting for the business, but in terms of just making sure that we both were, you know, covered in terms of work and whatever and getting what we needed. I've never been able to do this locally, so all I know is travel to go along with these events. And as the kids got older, as the boys were older, then I could leave for longer and longer times because they were either in school or it was summer and they were very self-sufficient,
they knew how to get themselves a sandwich.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so it evolved even in that respect in terms of family life.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): you know, it was really intense at the beginning, because having a, having babies
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): a business like this and
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): growing at the same time was incredibly hard
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): isolating.
there are times I, I'm sure I ended up crying at my, at my desk m-
Casey (she/her): Oh, I'm sure. I,
Amy (she/her): count just
Casey (she/her): I think that's part of entrepreneurship.
Amy (she/her): Well, and it's part of new, being a new parent,
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): combine the two and it's
Casey (she/her): Bruh.
Amy (she/her): show.
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): na-navigating that in terms of the travel has been an evolution.
I mean, I started, my first big national was, like I said, NAIDEC Champs in 2001.
Casey (she/her): Okay
Amy (she/her): And then 2007 was when I started doing, AKC Nationals, and things have evolved from there the point where a couple years ago, I left my house in September and got home in December because of the way my shows were set up, you know, in terms of the dates.
It didn't
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): to come home in between.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): um,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): I don't enjoy. I don't like leaving home for four months.
Casey (she/her): That's rough. Yeah.
Amy (she/her): to do that,
Casey (she/her): each of these business evolutions, you have to be watching for the thing to happen or not, not even watching for the thing to happen. You have to be aware when the friction arises, and then identify what that friction point is, and then make a decision if that is a friction that you want to push through, that you can rearrange around, or is that, like, the make or break on that business for you.
Amy (she/her): I think slow evolution is underestimated. And, in terms of what that means for me is I'm building a membership Focus Makers, and part of it is I want to be a membership for dog sports photographers where we can talk about those friction points.
But I keep having these ideas of this grand opening and I'll have 500 people show up on the first day, and have to keep reminding myself it, it, it doesn't need to be that.
Casey (she/her): Ja.
Amy (she/her): it's open. I have a couple of people in there, plus
Casey (she/her): Ja. Jep
Amy (she/her): and it's gonna just grow as it grows.
Casey (she/her): Yeah。Yeah
Amy (she/her): it to, to be, you know, I don't need those $30,000 a month, you
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that you see splashed all over social media. My 30K a month. That's not what this is. I
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): there as a resource and as a support system, and as a way that we can have these conversations more than just you and me talking out into the void, but is talking with actual
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): about where they're having those issues.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): so the conversations have started. We can talk about your photos. We can talk about your processes, your systems, and then Casey is in there too because we're gonna talk about nervous system, because making sure that your nervous system is regulated is that piece that always gets neglected, and I neglected it for 22 years
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): I
Casey (she/her): Then, then, then, yep.
Amy (she/her): and, and got my shit together, and
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): together.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): Casey still gets, uh, messages from me
Casey (she/her): that's the reality of it. It, it's never gonna all be together for all of us all the time. But no, I think that's actually such a great point. The, the slow growth, I always think about like the slow evolution and changing and navigating the problems, but the slow growth is just as valuable too, and we don't, especially in this instant gratification social media, make $30,000 overnight kind of like pressure, is also checking in with like what do you actually want and need?
Like, do you just love taking pictures of dogs and hanging out at agility events? Then like shoot one or two events a year. Are you trying to make a full-time income so you can quit your day job? Then absolutely come meet with us so we can make sure that you're working as efficiently as possible so that we can make sure that that income, that profit margin, that the math is mathing.
You know? somewhere in the dog sports conversation I saw someone where I think locally they started getting to be known, and all of a sudden now they have kind of more shows than they can manage.
And I don't think this is uncommon that all of a sudden like, "Oh, you're the go-to dog sports photographer." I realized in the Richmond area where I live, there are so many fucking events. I'm like, oh, if you are like the one person that everybody all of a sudden starts realizing they could call, you could end up overwhelmed really fast.
And so then it's checking in, do I want to be this busy? If yes, how do I do it more efficiently? If no, how do I learn to set boundaries and how busy do I want to be? And there is room to do things slower, and there is so much power in doing things slow. I'm gonna throw myself under the bus here for a second.
This is a big do as I say, not as I do moment. There is power in moving slower to have a chance to test a system, learn a theory, put a building block in place. I am not good at that. And I like to jump in the deep end of the pool with the sharks immediately. But there is something to be said for the slower version of the build too.
Amy (she/her): I would love to be able to just do that, jump in, you know, headfirst and, and do that. But I've never been successful at that. the thing that's always worked for me is the slow burn. So, it's not even that I'm deliberately not jumping in and, and
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): do too much. I- it's never worked for me.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so as I look back, when things happened were when I was doing the slow evolution.
I was building my capacity.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Amy (she/her): to do bigger events. I was building
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): to run a crew, and I've not always been good at that.
my software that Ben wrote for me grew and evolved as the business grew. I would come home from an event and say, "Hey, I need this feature," and he would figure it out and he'd write it for me.
Casey (she/her): there are times when we talk that I'm like, "God, I wish I was, I wish I was better at that," 'cause I know I create myself stress by diving in headfirst sometimes, and I've had things be wildly successful, and I've had things catastrophically fail. And for me, I'm not hurt when I scrape my knee.
Like, I don't care that it failed. Okay, lesson learned, let's try something different. Not everybody has that type of resilience. Not everybody has the capacity to take the risk of some loss that I have done periodically in times.
you have to build in the way that works right for you, and I am willing to take some hard falls to do things in the speed that I do, and I also know that I create myself a stupid amount of stress sometimes doing the things the way that I do.
So there, it, it, like we always say, there's no necessarily one right answer, I'll be curious as we start working with more photographers, like who are the people who are driven by chaos, and we have to learn how to like manage that nervous system in a way that they can continue to run 100 miles an hour, and who do we support that wants to go slow, and we can take that pressure off that yes, slow is okay too,
Amy (she/her): and who are the ones that are going so slow that, that I wanna push them off the cliff a little bit?
Casey (she/her): Yes,
Amy (she/her): It's
Casey (she/her): there is that too.
Amy (she/her): It's time to do it.
Casey (she/her): Yes, you are ready. Take the leap. Here's the swift kick in the butt.
[00:41:39] More Events Doesn’t Mean More Money
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Casey (she/her): I'm curious then as we kind of like wrap this up,
Amy (she/her): for the photographer who's already at capacity but thinks that they should be doing more, what would you want them to look at before adding one more thing? who's at capacity but thinks they wanna add one more, I'd tell them to not add anything more.
there does become a point where you probably should say no, and I have said no.
I think we get into trouble if we start saying yes to things just because we think it's fun This is a business.
You
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): it like a business.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): If you have of, of cash just laying around and you can do it just for fun, great. Have
Casey (she/her): Right. Right.
Amy (she/her): Um, but, but most of us don't have that luxury. So has to make money. It has to make sense financially, if it makes sense, like you're going to make enough to make it worth doing the event
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): and you want to do it, then great. it on. But, evaluate where you are from a financial standpoint. Evaluate where you are from a mental standpoint. Do you have the time? the show doesn't end when the show ends.
Casey (she/her): Right. Yes.
Amy (she/her): the work keeps going,
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): that time in your schedule.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): this fall is gonna be a little tight for me, especially going from, an event in November to my December event.
It's gonna be tight, and I, I'm already looking ahead at, you know, what my turnaround times are gonna be, and making sure I communicate that so that people aren't hounding me, you
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): too, too quickly to say, "Hey, where's my stuff?"
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): know how long it's gonna take to get their stuff.
all of that has to be factored in. Can you do the work afterwards? Is it gonna make sense for your business? Are you gonna make money, or are you just gonna end up chained to your desk for even more hours in the day?
Casey (she/her): that sums it up. Like, when you're making decisions in your business, whether that's taking on a new event or what you offer, Those questions will bring you a lot of answers that will allow you to then keep growing your business or keep running your business at the pace that's right for you.
Yeah
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Taking on more events doesn't mean you're making more money.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): that's the one sentence answer.
So we talked a little bit about Focus Makers already, but, let me just give you the explicit invitation. If you are interested in joining a group of photographers that are talking about dog sports photography and how to do it better, how to reduce the friction, how to balance your life a little bit better so that you are not sitting at your desk for 20 hours a day. the invitation is open. The link is in the show notes.
From now until the end of the year, join at the premium level, fill out the application, and then I will upgrade you to the VIP level, which is for dog sports photographers only, at no additional charge.
Casey (she/her): like Amy was saying, so I also do nervous system coaching. That's the thing I bring to the plate. So in addition to Amy helping you with the, the logistics, the workflow, the processes, maybe even looking at your photographs, I'm talking about your nervous system.
If you're coming to us already in a state of like burnout or overwhelm, how do we get you re-regulated, not only from a logistical standpoint, but from like a body standpoint? And then how do we keep you out of burnout in the long run so you can actually keep doing this work and loving it and not falling apart?
that's where I'm at in this community is bringing your nervous system along for the ride as we build your business.
Amy (she/her): Perfect. Yeah, this, this is a fun partnership. If you enjoy us here talking to each other,
Casey (she/her): Ja.
Amy (she/her): uh, it's, it's way better in person, I
Casey (she/her): Ja,
Amy (she/her): we're gonna wrap up this episode. we're taking a break, This is my big travel season. I've got lots of events, they pretty much take up all of the, the space in my brain as well as the time on my schedule.
so we will be taking a break, and we will see you after the new year.
Casey (she/her): We are always looking for things to talk about, so reach out to us and those will be like maybe the front of the list when we come back in the new year
All right, that's a wrap on this one. If you haven't subscribed yet, go do that wherever you're listening. It's the easiest way to make sure that you catch every episode, and then come follow us on the socials. We're The Focus Trap on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, all of it. If something today made you go, "Wait, that's me," or there's a question you want us to take on, send us an email.
You can reach us at thefocustrap@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you.