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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
DR. JOEL MUDDAMALLE:
Welcome back to Therapy and Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and I'm so glad you tuned in today. You're about to hear from myself, Lysa TerKeurst, and counselor Jim Cress as we discuss the armor of God and how we can stand firm against the enemy in the midst of spiritual warfare.
JOEL:
Before we dive in, I wanna speak to those of you who are walking through a season of hardship. Often, what God teaches us through our own hard seasons becomes part of how we help someone else through theirs. I know that that's been personally true for me. That's why we're so grateful for our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University.
JOEL:
Their fully online certificate program, Caring for People God's Way, is a biblical counseling program that teaches you how to use God's word effectively in caring for others well. And a special scholarship is available for our listeners, which brings the complete program down to just $99. Visit lightuniversity.com/proverbs31 to learn more and claim your scholarship today.
JOEL:
Okay, now let's jump back into today's conversation
JOEL:
Welcome to another episode of Therapy and Theology. Today, we're talking about a passage of scripture that if you've grown up in the church at all, you're probably pretty familiar with. The passage is Ephesians 6, and it's talking about the armor of God. I don't know about you guys, but Lysa and Jim, I have been more aware than ever before of the unseen battle that is all around us.
JOEL:
Um, and I mean, this goes from the reality of war geopolitically in our world, but also the chaos and the dysfunction of our families- and, uh, in marriage and in, uh, children and sibling relationships. Jim, there's a part of this that I wanna talk to you about before we even get into the armor of God, and this is super practical, something that we've discussed offline a little bit.
JOEL:
I might be catching you off guard a little. But there is a growing group of millennials or individuals that are absolutely just disconnecting from their parents.
JIM CRESS:
Oh, yeah, it's a pandemic.
JOEL:
They're, they're almost just... And they're calling it boundaries, right? But it's boundaries that's almost like isolation.
JOEL:
And what I want us to do is when we're thinking about spiritual warfare, I want us to recognize, and I did a lot of this in my book, The Unseen Battle, that spiritual warfare always has a prize in mind. Like every battle always has a prize in mind. And the ultimate prize has always been, always will be about the people of God, the people made in the image of God.
JOEL:
And so if the enemy can deceive us, and then they can divide us, then the enemy is going to absolutely be, um, able to bring about destruction, even if it's our own self-destruction. And one of the ways that we experience self-destruction is through isolation. And so what have you been feeling about this particular topic?
JIM:
Well, it's called parental alienation. And maybe more than parents, it can be families. Uh, there are num- numerous articles out right now and people speaking to this, whether it's on social media or elsewhere, that are saying that the culprit, are you ready, the cause of this is therapy and therapists.
JIM:
Meaning they're there teaching people to have boundaries, uh, therapists are, and saying, "You don't need to take this and get back in, uh, any part of a toxic family system." And sometimes they're right. I've done that and said, "Okay, let's look at where things are in this family about having," like your book- Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And what I've found is there's just a groundswell of people who can take anything, and there's always things, as we all know, that will run its course. I mean- people are, are Reddit, they're, they're with Reddit, they're, they're getting all their therapy from there, or TikTok or whatever.
JIM:
And doesn't mean there's not some wise counsel in some of that, but they're running with it. And reason why I call it a pandemic, because of research that's done, like my friend Didi Meyer, uh, Dr. Didi Meyer at Pepperdine has studied this very deeply, is they can take a basic concept, which is I do get to have boundaries, and then they run it all the way out.
JIM:
And what it becomes is not boundaries anymore, but walls. Boundaries are to keep me safe. Walls are I don't care what you've done over there. Walls are to push you out. We're all creatures of extremes. As soon as somebody tastes of something in the word of God or they taste of something in the therapy world that says this could be a healthy boundary, we just run it all the way out, and we're having many voices.
JIM:
If you remember, a- and if I may just add this quickly, Solomon's son Rehoboam- there's a point that's so classic, and I see it in culture all the time, where the older, wiser guides and sages who are around him, the wise men, he went to them and he's, they said, "What do we do about these people?" And they said, "We think we ought to do this," which was basically compassion and wise.
JIM:
And then he went to his younger friends, it says, and they went, "No way, don't do that. You oughta-" And this in mockery. So I'm seeing that we think that's, you know, there's nothing new under the sun. And that's what I see is people now with all the social media stuff, is they're taking a concept of boundaries, running it way out to parental alienation.
JIM:
And in conclusion, they're not- They're not giving the parents a chance. Because I've had some people watch Therapy and Theology and say to me, "Are you saying this?" Because they've had healthy boundaries, and I would say, "No, you've invited parents to say, 'Can we talk about this? I'm willing to, might even do therapy.'"
JIM:
Other people are saying, "Nope." Even the parents saying, "I'll go to therapy. I'll do anything." "No, no, no. Get out. Don't... We won't see it. No more holidays till further notice." Hear the difference? One's an open heart and is saying, "Let's go talk about this," and others, the kids, are saying, "No chance. Get out and get away."
LYSA TERKEURST:
I think we have to remember that the purpose of boundaries is so that you can establish good communication about what is and is not acceptable, what you are and are not willing to give, and what you do and do not allow. And, you know, it's... You don't put a boundary on another person. Boundaries are not meant to shove that other person away.
LYSA:
And I think sometimes when we go silent, which, like you said, in some extreme cases, that is necessary- and wise counsel would say that is the best option. But in, in many cases, you know, if we use boundaries to shove someone away, we're almost communicating- that this is a punishment. This is a manipulation- to get you to change the way I think you need to change. You know, this is a manipulation tool, you know? And then also, it can be, like, using the grandkids. Like, "You won't see your grandkids if you don't do-
JIM:
That's weaponizing
LYSA:
“... blah, blah, blah.". Now, I understand sometimes we have to put a boundary on ourselves. It's not meant to shove other people away, but we may need to remove ourself in certain situations that have become toxic. But a boundary is meant to keep us safe, secure, and sane so that we can be stable enough to really make healthy assessments.
LYSA:
And also, we do need to make assessments. A boundary, usually, you know, a more strict boundary, if the other person is willing, they're capable, they're doing the work, they're trying to change, we need to have just enough flexibility so that we can open the wall and look through it and say, "Is that person willing, able, and are they making progress?"
LYSA:
And if so, then boundaries can be flexible. And what I'm not saying is that we set a boundary and then allow someone to cross it. What I am saying is we've gotta be observers. We've gotta be watchmen on the wall, if you will so that we are looking to see what is a true assessment of where they're at right now.
JIM:
Since you, by the way, seriously, have written this book, The Unseen Battle, and are gonna lead us through spiritual warfare, again, more anecdotally, what I find is I don't have to chalk up this pandemic of parental alienation, the, the very toxic and unhealthy part of it, I don't have to chalk that up to directly primarily spiritual warfare.
JIM:
I think there is a human warfare that's going on in co-operation, known as cooperation, with Satan and his forces and all the demonic. But often it's like, it feels like it's often more human, the, the, the human wisdom driven than it is just Satan's there moving all the pawns around on a chessboard.
JOEL:
Yeah, I mean, the idea of James, you know, uh, I believe it's James 3, it's the wisdom from above versus the wisdom from below. And the way it's described is the wisdom from above is heavenly, but the wisdom from below is demonic. Um, and that is absolutely invading our homes and our workplaces and society and culture, uh, at large.
JOEL:
Now, some people are probably wondering- Joel, why do we start a conversation about the armor of God with parents and alienation and siblings?
JIM:
I'm actually wondering that myself.
JOEL:
Are you?
JIM:
Yeah.
JOEL:
There's, there's a method-
JIM:
I knew you had a plan
JOEL:
... there's a method to this, and part of it is because, once again, I'm sitting in the host's chair, so this is fun. I get to kind of take the conversation wherever I want. The first time I did this, I felt very nervous. I still feel nervous now, but you know what? I'm just gonna go for it.
JIM:
You're having fun.
JOEL:
Um, so we're gonna have a little bit of a theology study day.
JIM:
Do it.
JOEL:
Is that cool?
JIM:
Do it.
LYSA:
That's cool. Now, just in full disclosure-
JIM:
Uh-oh
LYSA:
before we started these two episodes where Joel is the host, he looked at me and said, "Uh, why am I doing this?"
JOEL:
Yeah, for real. Um, so I, I want... W- with Lysa, we say often, theology study days are our favorite days.
LYSA:
It is.
JOEL:
And, um, Jim, uh, me, and Lysa, we sit for hours, uh, before we get even into here to record to work through the text and to talk to the theory-
JIM:
I love those days.
JOEL:
and to, and to do the deep theological work before we even get here to communicate and to talk. But, um, a little bit of a Bible reading pro tip is that the Bible, and I mentioned this in a different episode, uh, the Bible itself was not written with chapters and verses. That's a really important detail for us.
JOEL:
Chapters and verses were given to us much later, around the medieval time period if I'm, um, if I'm, um, remembering that, and it was given to us in order to, um, conceptualize and to help us in our memory of what's actually taking place. But the problem for us is that, like, for instance, Ephesians 6, uh, when we talk about the armor of God, we go to verse 10, if the church in Ephesus was first to receive this text, we have to remember that this was a primarily oral tradition, an auditory learning environment.
JOEL:
The ability to even read was an incredible privilege that most people didn't have. So when this letter that Paul writes to the city, uh, in Ephesus, particularly the church inside of Ephesus, they would have, before they would have ever, like, read words like what you and I are doing today, they would have sat down, and they would have listened to somebody communicate and speak this to them.
JOEL:
Now, what's so fascinating about this is that the way that the manuscript is written is that before you get to Ephesians 6:10, which talks about the armor of God, this is wild, it starts with the relationship of the household. That's beautiful. That's the whole thing. Chapter five it's all about household relationships.
JOEL:
There's a whole German term, Haus halten, that, um, talks about household codes, but, um, that's super nerdy. The main idea is that, uh, God cares about the household. God cares about the family. And so, um, Paul begins to write to the church in Ephesus and says, "Hey, by the way, there's this thing called mutual submission.
JOEL:
There's this thing about mutual love. There's this thing about, um, honoring one another, outdoing one another. This is how a marriage relationship should w- look like between a husband and wife. Husbands, by the way, you ought to care a lot about your wives and love them and sacrifice for them." Which if you just look at the verses, verses 22 and 25- uh, 24, which are the two verses about, um, women in the relationship or the wives in the relationship versus the, like, verses 25 through 33 basically.
JOEL:
Like, that's, like, a whole bunch of verses about the man. In the ancient world, the dudes are stressing out right now. Absolutely stressing out 'cause they're used to us, like them telling like women, "Hey, you guys need to do this." They're not used to being called on the carpet for their behavior. Paul is doing a corrective here.
JOEL:
And then it goes from that to children. Obey your parents, do what's right. It's about mutuality even in that relationship. And then it goes to the relationship between, um, servants and their masters, and then it all the way comes down to verse 10. And in verse 10 it says, "Finally," which that finally is a word that indicates that this is a continuation and a culmination of everything that came before this.
JOEL:
And so I, I say that now as a summary for us because if we were to walk into a conversation about the armor of God and disconnect it from its context of household relationships, and I think this is the nuclear family but also a community, that's how the ancient world understood this, we would actually be deceived.
JOEL:
Like, we could over-spiritualize or under-spiritualize and totally miss that the point of the armor of God is actually to help us live in right relationship with one another- and to be a winsome witness to the dark powers of the power and the unity that comes in the household of God and of their coming defeat.
JOEL:
So I, I wanted to set it up, so that's why I wanted to start with-
JIM:
It makes sense
JOEL:
... one of the massive crises that we're dealing with right now, and then saying, by the way, therapy, yes, understanding boundaries biblically, yes, and it's both and, not either/or. And we have to take the armor of God very seriously.
JOEL:
So let's jump in. Um, here's what I'd love to do, guys. I'd love to read the verses, um, and then I'd love to just work through this and kind of, uh, unpack what you find is interesting, and then I've got some other, uh, places that I wanna go. In Ephesians 6, starting in verse 10, um, I'm reading from the ESV translation today.
JOEL:
It says this: "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
JOEL:
Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and the shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace.
JOEL:
In all circumstances, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints.”
JIM:
And then he goes on and on. Um, Jim, when people are walking into your office, uh, what role does the armor of God, and you can pick and choose whichever ones you think are some of the most important, uh, find their way into your guys' conversation?
JIM:
Well, we've talked about this before, and so to reiterate it at least here for our audience, I find that people come in, I would say pretty much always, uh, with false armor on.
JIM:
And it goes back to Genesis 3 with their fig leaves to cover their inadequacies. Some think they might even read good books. My goodness, they could read Good Boundaries and Goodbyes and say, "No, I'm going to have these boundaries." And what they've done is in an unhealthy way they've armored up. So my work, gently, led by the Holy Spirit, slowly in wisdom, is to get them to realize their human armor.
JIM:
Because if that armor's on, they're literally, if I use a biblical metaphor, they're, they're trying to go out in the armor of Saul, like David did. Versus in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, in, in the power of God. So I have them identify first, say be- they need to get aware that they're armored up.
JIM:
They might do that through, believe it or not, Enneagram numbers. "Hi, I'm a one. I'm a nine." I'm gonna go, "Could I get your name first?" They- they'll go in, 'cause... And I get it, I'm not against the Enneagram by any means. It's information. And so I'll say, and they, they know all their numbers and the traits of it, or they may come in and say, "This is my personality."
JIM:
Or since I'm a therapist here at the table, they might say what's called the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manuals, that says you're borderline, you're a narcissist, you're histrionic, you're whatever that might be, or a psychiatric label like I have, OCD or ADHD or bipolar. And going along with that, a big part of that is that's another type of information, and I'll tell them often it's good, but these labels are for jars, not people.
JIM:
The labels can be informative a little bit. So and say let's recognize the false armor they have where they are armored up, and then with that is to look not just personality, we've talked about it before here in one of these podcasts, is often I'll say, "Can you see that this is really a style of relating, God bless you, that you learned a long time ago, whether you knew it or not, to wear this false armor so that it does keep you safe?"
JIM:
So to go back to this classic passage in Ephesians 6 is to say I need them to de-armor the human armor they put on. Do that very gently because it's protected them. In fact, I tell people, do you understand if some people did not have an addiction, they would have suicided. Well, Jim's pro-addiction. No, that's not... By the way, sin is the ultimate addiction. All of us got that.
JIM:
So inside I say, yeah, the, even the addiction has tried to serve them. That's another way of false armor.
JOEL:
Wow.
JIM:
Then to get down and take them slowly into the word of God, and as you've done well since you started, you brilliant soul, of what you started with, with parental alienation, and then you took us right here to God's word.
JIM:
If Satan can destroy primary marriage and families, even adult families, he's got us. So this parental alienation, the passage leading into Ephesians 6, having them look at that, that they may be doing false boundaries, calling them boundaries when they're really walls, and I, I get, have to get them to de-armor here before they could even see the armor of God.
JIM:
They will- I don't think they could just armor of God over that.
JOEL:
Wow.
JIM:
It's not like a suit they put over that.
JOEL:
Wow.
LYSA:
I would say that I think one of the number one reasons people walk into therapy is because of some sort of relational trauma. Um- and it could be with a person in the past that's not even alive, or it could be a present relationship, or it could be the fear of relationships because of a bad past experience that they need to try to prepare for future relationships, or maybe they have a pattern of picking wrong relationships.
LYSA:
So, um, you know, Joel, we recently taught a class together on orthodoxy, orthopathy, orthopraxy.
JOEL:
Yeah, nailed it.
LYSA:
Since I am sitting in the theologian chair-
JOEL:
Yes
LYSA:
... I, I think I'm gonna just-
JOEL:
Go there
LYSA:
... channel my inner Joel right now-
JOEL:
Let's go
LYSA:
... and bring this into conversation. But you know, as we were teaching that class, one of the things that I taught was it, it might be good to reverse engineer this.
LYSA:
In other words, think of an issue in our life, and, and then ask ourself the question, what was I believing or what did I think I know in this situation? So that's orthodoxy, you know? And then what were the feelings that contributed, orthopathy. And then what did I do as opposed to what scripture tells me to do?
LYSA:
So I'm gonna reverse engineer something here. You have a major conflict with another person, and I go to the Bible, and I go, "Okay." What does the Bible want us to know that's really important as it relates to spiritual warfare? So you have a conflict with another person. Here's what scripture wants us to know.
LYSA:
Ephesians 6, you read it just a minute ago, verse 12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm." The conflict is with that person, but the struggle, the underpinnings of this, is not against flesh and blood.
LYSA:
Okay, so that's what we need to know. That's orthodoxy. Then here's what we're going to feel, the orthopathy, which then needs to be course-corrected. We are gonna feel very justified in our anger. If we go back to Ephesians chapter 4 verse 26, we're gonna feel very justified in our anger, and it's, the scripture's saying, "But don't."
LYSA:
Don't. That feeling of anger must not take over. Yeah. Because look what it says. "Do not let the sun go down where you're still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold." Hold. In that unattended to feeling of anger, the devil is right there. Now, obviously he's not omnipresent. He has set up, you know, the influences, the systems, the strategies, you know, the demons.
LYSA:
So the, the feeling of anger is not what's wrong here, but if you lay in it in your bed and you become obsessed and overthink and just, like, over and over and over, "I'm so angry, I'm so angry, I'm so angry," then that opens you up to giving the devil a foothold. So that's the feeling part of this orthopathy.
LYSA:
Now, what is it saying that we need to practice here? Well, continuing on down in verse 26, it says that, "We need to get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. We need to be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
LYSA:
Now, what's interesting here, that's a definite practice- to get rid, to forgive. But ultimately, like you said, it's a continuation getting us all the way back to, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm."
LYSA:
Therefore, here's the ultimate practice. The ultimate thing that we must do. Put on the full armor of God so when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground. And I think that sometimes we can think these verses and maybe these big spiritual practices or, or even the, the theological wording, that it's all hovering way up here, 30,000 feet in the air, but bring it all the way down to-
JIM:
Wow.
LYSA:
… the next time you have a conflict. Remember this. Our thinking ha- we have to remember that our struggle is not against flesh and blood. And why is this so important? Because in order to be kind and compassionate, like the Lord said- we have to take a step back, not excusing the person's behavior at all. They need to own their own actions. But what we might be able to do is bring in some compassion if we remember our ultimate struggle is really not against this person. It's against the evil forces in the heavenly realm, and reverse engineer this so we can see what do we do. Don't lay in our bed full of anger.
LYSA:
Don't give the devil a foothold. Yeah. And ultimately choose- Forgiveness. Choose to get rid of the bitterness and put on the full armor of God.
JIM:
No- notice... Thank you, by the way. She just eloquently went right out of God's word, and I quit counting how much of the false human armor that is on there before we can get...
JIM:
That's why I said you've got to de-armor- because when you have all this stuff. But it's exciting right now. You've hurt me. I have bitterness. I have wrath, anger, just rage. I have all these things, clamor, slander. I'd rather just gossip about you- than to deal with you. So there's the false armor, and you say, "What are you de-armoring this kind of stuff?"
JIM:
That God's Word. Freud didn't invent that. God's Word says it. Then I get down and I'm ready to then go into the, the spiritual armor.
JOEL:
Ah, this is so good. One, I, uh, I never really thought about the de-armoring part of this. I don't know how many times I've studied this, and I think- that that is... This is why theology should always be done in the context of community.
JOEL:
Um, and that's brilliant. Uh, Lysa, what you did was so important for us, um, of making the connection, and you're talking about our thoughts. And there's a section here in verse 17. It says, "And take the helmet of salvation." Um, so I wanna do a little bit of exegetical work, and then we're going to, um, land the plane here.
JOEL:
But it starts in verse 10 with, "Finally, be strong in the Lord and the strength of his might." So the way the Greek syntax works there is you and I are, very important, passive participants of a divine action. We're pa- What does that mean? It means this is an action that God does for us on our behalf because we cannot do it on our own.
JOEL:
So God makes us strong in His strength and in His might, which is what allows us to even be able to put on the whole armor of God. And notice it says, "The whole armor of God," and not pick and choose which ones make you happy today. Because some days I like to have the shield, some days I wanna have the peace, but honestly, some days I don't wanna have the peace.
JOEL:
I just wanna live in the chaos- because it feels comfortable. And I'm, and I'm angry at the person.
LYSA:
That's right. That’s right.
JOEL:
And so here's the, "No, no, you gotta put on the whole armor of God." Um, and then it says, "The helmet of salvation." So in the ancient world, um, you know, the, many New Testament scholars point out in here that Paul is drawing on the centurion, the Roman elite soldier, and the armor that was very common at the time and, and the helmet in every age and era- it was very important. I'm gonna do a very nerdy thing for you guys. Did you guys ever watch X-Men?
JIM:
Oh, the, we're watching that right now, the, the cartoon
JOEL:
Yes. X-Men '97. Are you watching?
LYSA:
I want to say yes but the reality is no.
JOEL:
Because I'm watching it right now too. Okay. There's this really... I'm gonna do this very quickly, but this is really cool.
LYSA:
First of all, how do you have time to sit around and watch X-Men?
JIM:
That's relaxation.
LYSA:
I'm just curious.
JOEL:
It's just part of my ADD. I like to have X-Men up and then I read and study while I'm watching X-Men as well, and it helps me, like in this moment right here, 'cause I'm gonna make a connection point with you. Um, there's a-
JIM:
Are you Professor X or Magneto? Which are you?
JOEL:
So I'm about to talk about both of them. Actually, Magneto-
JIM:
The crew
JOEL:
... has a helmet that he puts on his head- and it's very important because Professor Xavier can get into his mind and actually manipulate him if he doesn't have this helmet on, right?
JIM:
Trust the process.
JOEL:
So trust the process. Okay. I just wanna point out there is nothing new underneath the sun. All the best narrative, all the best-
JIM:
That's so good
JOEL:
... storytelling is all ripping off the ancient text, and it says the helmet of salvation. So we actually have to cross-reference the helmet of salvation with something that Peter says in 1 Peter 5:8.
JOEL:
Peter says, um, which is actually, we'll start in 6, he says, "Humble yourself therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you." Then he says this: "Be sober-minded." "Be sober-minded." "Be watchful." By the way, you cannot be watchful if you're intoxicated, just a, just a side note.
JOEL:
"Be sober-minded, be watchful." Why? "Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." And then it says, "Resist him." Firm in your faith. Wait a minute, didn't Paul talk about faith? Oh, yeah. Firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the whole world.
JOEL:
And, um, the reason why this is important is in the Greek world, as soon as they heard that Greek phrase for sober-minded, instantly their mind is actually going to the oracles and to the temples in Ephesus and Corinth and, um, the oracle to, uh, Apollo or, uh, to these different false gods. And what they would do is inside of these temples, they would take psychedelics and hallucinatives, and it was through an inebriated and intoxicated mind that they believed that they could interact with and meet with the deities, right?
JOEL:
But notice what God says to us. He says, "Don't do that."
LYSA:
That's right.
JOEL:
He doesn't want us to be inebriated. He doesn't want us to be intoxicated. He wants us to be sober-minded, and in our sobriety of mind, we can truly know who He is, but the enemy absolutely wants to have us intoxicated in mind, which is why I want us to go back to some of the conversation we had with you, Jim, about pornography and alcohol abuse and addiction and the fentanyl cra- uh, crisis that we're dealing-
JIM:
It's terrible
JOEL:
… with right now. Psychedelics, I don't know if you guys know this. Psychedelics is, like, the up-and-coming conversation.
JIM:
So hip and cool.
JOEL:
Absolutely, and people are saying, "Well, I experienced, uh, a deity that spoke to me and, and told me all these things." I'm like, "Yeah, you might have." Like, like, these are things that the Bible actually speaks against to protect us from being deceived because in our deception, we'll be divided, and if we're divided, we will be- um, prone to self-destruction.
JIM:
I always tell them, yeah, and Saul talked to the witch of Endor, too. So if you... 'Cause I've talked to people, and they're having these trips, it is, so it's real 4K, all like that. I'm like, "You're into a realm there that, uh- Be, be very, very alert and, um, who knows what they're getting into. But it feels like it's better than AI to them- on these trips. I'm like, "That's scary stuff, man."
JOEL:
Absolutely. Um, I wanna read a section from The Unseen Battle. Um, and while most New Testament scholars point out the Roman armor, I'm convinced that Paul is a good Jewish boy and he understands the Hebrew Bible very, very well.
JOEL:
And I actually think there's something even more important, and it actually goes to the whole David and Saul armor deal that you alluded to, Jim, that I think is really important. Um, so I write here, "Entire books have been written on the armor of God and the believer." And I'm not gonna go into detail on every piece of armor, but I do wanna highlight a few things that we should note about how it's used.
JOEL:
First, we should note the elements of the armor are not arbitrary or randomly chosen. For several, in fact, there seems to be an echo back to the Old Testament. In the story of David and Saul, for example, Saul desired David to adorn his armor, to wear the armor of the king. However, David was uncomfortable with it.
JOEL:
He had no training in it, and frankly, wasn't strong enough to wear it. However, in Ephesians 6, we're enabled and equipped to adorn the armor of the king because the Spirit of God is within us. What an incredible gift when we realize that Ephesians 6 isn't speaking of old, rusty armor hidden away in a closet.
JIM:
Wow.
JOEL:
Paul says we have been given the very armor of God, what God uses to equip himself for the battle. The echoes of this are found in Isaiah 59:16-17. "He, the Lord, saw there was no man. He was amazed that there was no one interceding, so His own arm brought salvation, and His own righteousness supported Him.
JOEL:
He put on righteousness as body armor and a helmet of salvation on His head. He put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and He wrapped Himself in zeal as in a cloak." When we adorn this divine armor, we should have in mind Isaiah 59 and marvel that the armor we have is the armor of the King of kings and Lord of lords, Yahweh's very own armor.
JOEL:
What better way to equip us to stand against the schemes of the enemy? To discern the schemes and plans of our enemy, we must know the truth of God, which is why the entire armor is built around the belt of truth. Lys, um, as we wrap up our time together, there are so many ways that we experience spiritual attack in our life.
JOEL:
Um, what are some practices that have been helpful for you as you've endured all kinds of, um, issues from spiritual attack to, like, just fleshly, our body's falling apart, to just the everyday life? What has been helpful for you?
LYSA:
Well, here's one thing, and it won't apply to every situation, but let's say that you and I, Joel, that we have a conflict, and we need to hash something out.
LYSA:
I think before we hash something out, I, I would love to say to you, "Hey, Joel, can we both spend some time in prayer about this? Because I want the Jesus in you to talk to the Jesus in me." And it's, it's not this hyper-spiritual weird thing. What it really is, is, Lord, align my heart with Jesus, and inside of you, align my heart with Jesus.
LYSA:
Because our struggle is not against flesh and blood. It, it really is that something has come in and it's caused a division. You know, I think it is ... I think Satan's very name means one who casts something between two- Division ... to cause a separation. Separation is always one of his schemes, one of his tactics.
LYSA:
Remember I said he is crafty, but he's not creative. Division, separation, and especially in a close friendship or, you know, a, a marriage situation or between parent and child. I mean, division is something that is a huge strategy for him. And so as believers, and again, doesn't apply to every situation, but as believers, let the Jesus in me talk to the Jesus in you, I think is one of the best ways to enter into something that needs to be worked through.
JOEL:
Yeah. That's so good.
JIM:
Love that.
JOEL:
Jim, I wanna give you an opportunity to close our time together with just something practical and pragmatic from a therapy standpoint. Maybe it's the de-armoring and the re-armoring, um, but what would you say to everybody?
JIM:
Well, it'll be a bit of a recapitulation, that's fine. Is, as you've alluded to, uh, from what I was saying about the importance of de-armoring. Well, I'm not gonna be able to practically de-armor if I don't know what I'm taking off. I'm mindful when I get dressed every day of I'm putting on this shirt, what about that? I'm not just jumping in blindly and putting on clothes.
JIM:
I think of Romans 13:14, where Paul is writing, and he says something, and I bet I use this about probably the most, third most popular verse I ever use in my counseling practice. "Clothe yourselves, therefore," you talk about spiritual armor. Clothe yourselves as you get up every day. "Clothe yourselves, therefore, in the Lord Jesus Christ."
JIM:
Literally the identity in Christ, comma, and, ready? Don't miss part B, "And make no provision for the lust of the flesh." So that idea is where today, gently with yourself, might you, might I be making provision for the lust of the flesh? I've said often- Just look at your world because if you stay in that barber shop long enough, you're gonna get a haircut.
JIM:
It's only a matter of time. But first, Romans 13:14, am I clothing myself in the Lord Jesus Christ? Be kind, tender-hearted, forgiving. We have so many verses around that. So I wanna know that verse and keep that always before me. I wanna look and say, what is my armor? I help people do that. Sometimes, no surprise to you all, I'll say, "Let's put a poster board up," or let's just use sticky notes they may put on their, their shirt or something and say, "Let's identify what false human armor do you have?"
JIM:
And then before I say, "Take that off," I would say, "How has this armored ser- this armor served you?" Even again, as I said earlier, how has an addiction served you? And it's time to say your services are no longer needed, right? So the idea is saying, what is the armor, and then to be able to take that down.
JIM:
Then I feel like I'm ready to go to the armor of God very specifically. Everything here in Ephesians 6 matches up in the theology with the best therapy you can find anywhere to say, "I need to do that." Then I'm walking out in the power of God. And again, I'm very gentle with people. Some people say, oh, I- they're biblically illiterate even though they're Christians.
JIM:
They don't even know this passage exists, or if they do, they go, "That sounds like a war movie. Okay, fine." But to say, no, you can put this armor on and it's very, very practical. One last thing. I encourage people, study the word of God. Get in. I mean, I have the ESV Study Bible in front of me. There are study notes.
JIM:
There's so many study Bibles. And realize what you were taking us through, and you always do, there's some history around this. And understanding. Then it becomes exciting, may I say this, better than your Netflix dramas, to go, "Wow, I didn't know it meant this, and that meant that, and the sword, the only offensive weapon in there."
JIM:
Like, wow, look at that. And they get excited 'cause they're excited about many other things to say, let's let the word of God, which is active- Dividing, piercing more than a two-edged sword and say, "This is exciting," more than just boringly de-armoring and armoring in the armor of God.
JOEL:
So good. Well, Jim, thank you so much for your therapeutic wisdom. And Lysa, thank you for your theological brilliance. That's so helpful.
JOEL:
Um, I wanna leave you guys with, uh, something that I think is really important and what I want you to walk away with, and it goes back to the idea of the fact that the armor of God is not arbitrary. Um, I was showing this to Lysa and Jim, uh, today before we started to record, but, um, every couple of years I'll get a new Bible and start to work through it, and this Bible is the first time that I, uh, have done a Bible dedicated to each of my kids, and this is the first one that I have dedicated to, Lord willing, one day my first grandchild.
JOEL:
Um, and it's gonna have my notes and my thoughts and my comments and my nerdy theology, and my hope and my prayer is that one day that I'll be able to take this and hand it to my first grandchild.
JIM:
Wow.
JOEL:
And I'm just so excited about it. Um, and I want it to be personal. I want them to be like, "How did you even write?" Like, "How'd you get a PhD? I can barely understand your writing." You know, all of that, and it's personal and it's intimate. I want you guys to know that when God offers you the armor of God on a daily basis, that this is His personal armor.
JIM:
Amen.
JOEL:
It's in the same way that I would wanna give this to my grandkids and see it in their eyes and, and to have them cherish that moment and to feel like there's a connection to me even when I'm long gone, that you and I are given on a daily basis the armor, the intimate armor of God that He Himself adorns Himself with, and it's given to us, and it's available for us every day.
JOEL:
Because, yes, there is a real enemy, and he hates us, and he's determined to deceive us and to divide us and to lead us into our own self-destruction, to lure and entice us. And, yes, we have a good God who loves us, and if you need a reminder of that love, you look to the cross, and you see Jesus and the victory that He gave over sin and death and that He invites us into life in Himself.
JOEL:
And we are equipped to stand in the day of evil because the Lord has given us His Spirit to empower us and equip us and His personal armor that we put on daily. So y'all, thank you so much for your time. Lysa, thank you. Jim, thank you, and we'll see you on the next one.
JOEL:
And now it's time for my favorite segment, Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's Listener Mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful and practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name.
JOEL:
We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and the hope of the gospel. And now we wanna invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thanks for investing in the life of a child. You can go to compassion.com/lysa, L-Y-S-A, to choose a child to sponsor today.
JOEL:
Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener asked, "Do our loved ones in heaven see us?" Here's how I'd answer that. We have to be careful, um, of moving too far into speculation, but I do believe that there's some biblical evidence that suggests that, yeah, our loved ones are aware and can see us on the other side of eternity.
JOEL:
The place that I would turn to is Hebrews chapter 12. Let me read verse one. It says, "Therefore, since we're surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us." It's this idea of this great cloud of witnesses that is witnessing, they're watching, they're observing, they're cheering us on, and the question is: Who are these great cloud of witnesses?
JOEL:
Uh, my thought is that they are none other than our loved ones that have submitted themselves to King Jesus, um, and are with Him right now as they await, and you and I await, for the final consummation and the new heavens, the new Earth that will invade onto Earth. And I really hope that this gives us a sense of comfort.
JOEL:
Now, the mechanics of exactly what do they see, how do they see, all of that, that I believe is speculation, but I think that the things that matter the most are two things. One, they're in the presence of King Jesus. I mean, how incredible is that? And number two, in some way they are aware of what we're walking through on this side of eternity, and they're cheering us on as a, um, way to encourage you and I today to continue running this race as we aim our eyes on King Jesus and we wanna be with Him