Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit

Join us for a special July episode as we delve into Revolutionary War history with Kathi and Jim Turner, owners of the Rising Eagle Public House in Melrose, Massachusetts. Discover how this couple's passion for American history inspired their unique restaurant, rooted in the rich history of Malden's role in the fight for independence. Learn about their journey from the seafood business to owning multiple restaurants, and hear fascinating stories about John Adams, the Malden instructions, and the legacy of the American Revolution. This engaging conversation is a must-watch for history enthusiasts and anyone curious about the importance of preserving local heritage.

00:00 Introduction to Kathi and Jim Turner
00:55 Journey into the Restaurant Business
02:58 The Birth of Rising Eagle Public House
04:28 Historical Significance of Malden and Public Houses
08:14 The Role of Malden in the Fight for Independence
17:37 The Malden Instructions and John Adams
25:09 Celebrating American History at Rising Eagle
27:38 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Creators and Guests

Host
Bill LuMaye
Former talk show host at WPTF680 in Raleigh, N.C.
Host
Liz Morris
Chief Executive Officer at Carrot-Top Industries, Inc.
Guest
Jim Turner
Owner of the Rising Eagle Publick House in Melrose, Massachusetts.
Guest
Kathi Turner
Owner of the Rising Eagle Publick House in Melrose, Massachusetts.

What is Freedom and Glory - Tales of American Spirit?

Welcome to Freedom and Glory: Tales of American Spirit—a podcast celebrating the heart of American craftsmanship, resilience, self-reliance, and the power of disruption. Through inspiring stories and authentic storytelling, we shine a spotlight on individuals and communities who embody these values, proving that small, determined efforts can spark meaningful change.

Join us as we share personal tales of triumph, innovation, and hope—moments that define the American spirit and shape our nation’s identity. Whether you’re seeking motivation to pursue your dreams or a reminder of the power of community, Freedom and Glory offers a powerful dose of inspiration rooted in resilience and determination.

Listen, be inspired, and take action.

007 - Freedom and Glory -
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Liz: [00:00:00] we're leaning into history with a special July episode featuring Kathy and Jim Turner, the passionate duo behind the Rising Eagle Public House in Melrose, Massachusetts. From the Malden instructions to the Fight for Independence, this conversation explores how one couple is bringing Revolutionary War history to life.

Kathy and Jim, thanks for joining us. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

Kathi: Well, we're happy to be here. Same. Thank you. You tell 'em about your, how we got in the restaurant business. [00:01:00]

Jim: So Kathy and I met in college and, um, my, my family's been in the fish business for a hundred years. My grandfather started on the Boston Fish Bureau in 1924. We've gone through a little bit of an evolution.

He started a company in. Boston called Turner Fisheries, which became very well known because it was the first company to start, um, shipping fish on airlines. They helped develop the packaging. So, but we, when I graduated from college, I shortly went and joined my dad and we started the company up in Gloucester called Turner Seafoods.

Um, there was a period of time where the because of fishing regulations and um low fish stocks that we really needed to extend ourselves into the. Restaurant business because we just needed to be able to survive. And that's basically, it was, it was a matter of survival, opening up turn to Seafood's Grill and Market back 30 years ago.

In 1994 on Main Street, Melrose, which is my hometown,

Kathi: he had said, my dad loves to cut fish. And I [00:02:00] said, well, you need to become your own best customer. And so that's how we got into the restaurant business 30 years ago.

Bill: it's a family owned business, right? I mean, from what I've read,

Kathi: Absolutely. In fact, my son and our children are now the fourth generation. Yeah. So we're trying to make sure that we pass on something to them, that they can transition into what they envision its future to be.

Bill: Well, that's a business that, that's a tough business and it seems like you've been very successful. And in fact, you had another opportunity to open a new restaurant. And what, how many would that make that your latest restaurant is what the fourth restaurant

Kathi: Well, it's the fourth location. It's the third full restaurant. Our location up in Gloucester is a wholesale plant, a fish market, and a takeout shop. But we also do do overnight shipping a fresh seafood too.

Jim: So we opened our second seafood restaurant in Salem about 12 years ago, but um, back about four years ago.

Um. [00:03:00] The gentleman that owned the restaurant directly across the street from our original restaurant in Melrose came to us telling us that he was selling the business, selling the bus, selling the the, the real estate, which is something that was very important to us because we do not own our original property in, in Melrose.

And if you're in the restaurant business for the long haul, you really should own your own, own your own property because you should be stopped paying rent after at least a decade or so. So we really just decided that we really. Would would've driven us crazy if someone moved across the street and owned what we think is the nicest building in downtown Melrose.

So we negotiated to buy it, and then we had to go, well, what are we gonna do with it?

Kathi: We looked at each other and said, now we have a building and we already have a restaurant. We're not gonna move our restaurant. So it ends up that my husband. Loves American history, and we had actually just been to England right before this, not even knowing we were buying this property.

And we really loved the, um, camaraderie and community [00:04:00] gathering spaces of a lot of their pubs. We were with our kids. We'd go in, we'd play hearts. It was so comfortable, so relaxing that when we bought this property, everyone says, oh, are you gonna open an English pub, an Irish pub? And Melrose was a dry town until 1979 and never had any pubs or taverns.

And we knew they also didn't want pub or taverns. So we kind of looked at each other and fortunately, my husband loves American history, and he said, just gimme a little bit and let me start figuring out what we might wanna do. And that's when we discovered how unbelievably important mowers and Malden were one town.

And the township of Malden was incredibly instrumental in our initial fights for freedom. So in researching this, we found out that in the 15 hundreds, king George, I declared that if you take money for food or lodging, you must declare yourself a public house. And what he was trying to do is create safe commerce, safe travel, safe exchange of ideas.

But the colonists, [00:05:00] when they came over here, um. Very, very soon, every single township carried that tradition with them, and they started out as public houses and taverns, and they became incredibly instrumental in terms of the initial fights for freedoms. They were the community gathering spaces. A lot of the town halls and meetings were done there.

So the concept of the Pablo house was just part of the fiber, especially of the New England colonies. So

Jim: tavern owners had an issue. Problem. Had a problem though. 'em, um, with these travelers, the majority of, of of colonial colonialists were illiterate. They couldn't read the words, Hills Tavern. Now those were the two proprietors that opened the, opened the, the taverns.

So what tavern owners did back in the, in colonial era is they would include on their exterior sign an easily recognizable symbol. We don't know why. But for some reason the hills chose the sign of a [00:06:00] rising eagle. It was either carved or painted, but there are multiple John Adams diary entries detailing his visits to Hills Tavern sign of the Rising Eagle in Malden.

That begs another question, and I I pull confession that you're probably talking to the biggest John Adams fan on the planet. What was the man most responsible for the signing of the Declaration of Independence doing visiting Malden? Him. Turns out, it turns out the Rising Eagle Tavern because of its, its incredible support of the Rebel cause, was a safe haven for Sons of Liberty and people like John Adams.

So that's what attracted him.

Kathi: And it was 19, it was in 1749. They fortuitously chose the sign of a rising eagle, not having any idea that 40 years later that would become the blem of the country that they fought so hard to form.

Jim: So to tie in the story of the Malden instructions, [00:07:00]

Kathi: well, you better ask some questions.

Jim: Okay.

Liz: Well, I was gonna say, so I mean, you bought this building. Did you have any idea at the time that it was the Hill Tavern or did you just.

Jim: So the original tavern, the original tavern was located about a mile down the street.

Liz: Okay.

Jim: Um, but the, the, the, um, concept before we bought it was a bistro. Um, and. We have a very talented architect, and he was able to, um, age the building very, very appropriately. So make it look like it was, it was. So the unfortunately the, the original tavern, which we have a hanging, a picture hanging in our, in our restaurant was demolished it, it fell and disrepair.

It used to be a very 1914. Yeah. Very celebrated building. They were at the Maldens. I think 200th celebration. I mean, that thing is draped in more flags than you can even imagine. But, um, but it's, you know, the problem was the story [00:08:00] was getting lost and that's why we were happy to pick up.

Kathi: And our new building is 125 years old.

It's not as if it's like in a strip mall. It's a beautiful, old historic building. It just wasn't the original location of the, um, Hills Tavern.

Liz: I gotcha. Well, so I mean, I, I think you kind of asked one of my questions, you know, how did John Adams, how were there, you know, all of this action and things happening in such a small town of Malden? How was this, you know, one of the hot spots for.

Kathi: me, let me precursor before my husband, um, chimes in because, um. It just so happened that very near Malden less than probably five miles down the road, is a town called Cambridge. And in Cambridge, Massachusetts, it was Harvard University. And back then Harvard was very, very devoted. Not only to um, the Renaissance education, but the concept of enlightenment.

And [00:09:00] part of the, um, philosophy of enlightenment has to do with self-governance. So most of the people in New England, and especially around this area, were educated at Harvard. Those that had been educated beyond a fairly simple level. And back then almost every preacher had some advanced education, and many of them came from Harvard.

So Malden had a preacher. Now you can go,

Jim: Reverend Joseph Emerson was the original. Reverend in, in Malden, he passed away in 1767. The town was decimated that he, he was their

Kathi: preacher for 47 years. Right. And he was Harvard educated and he also, um, had a passion for the concept of, um, self-governance.

Right. Is what they named it. Then,

Jim: so the town of Malin goes into an auditioning phase. They're looking for a new pastor, and they would invite a pastor and they would sermonize them for 6, 7, 8 weeks. Um, three years go by and they have [00:10:00] no, no replacement. And it's January of 1770. It's a cold winter morning, and they, they say that the skepticism ran through the church when they found out that the preacher of the week was 18 years old.

And then he opened his mouth. He's supposed to be one of the, arguably the greatest orator of the, of the revolutionary era. His name is Peter Fasher. The town runs to sign him up as their preacher. He was so impressive.

Kathi: So Peter Thatcher actually graduated with a degree in theology from Harvard and in 19, in 8, 17 69.

And so he had started, but he was also an amazing writer. So he was really kind of the full package of a Renaissance man. And the other thing about Malden, under the guidance of, um, pastor Emerson, they had self-governed themselves for four or five [00:11:00] generations. So when started some of the turbulence and when King, um, George, I don't know.

What, what king was he? Third. Third, the third decided he was gonna start telling them how to live their lives again. They had none of that. They said, we're doing just fine on our own. And they had already developed their entire, um, structure of self-governance.

Jim: So think about King. So Peter

Kathi: Thatcher comes in,

Jim: so he's, he's signed up to become the

new pastor and literally two months later, an event known as the Boston Massacre basically throws Boston into a, into a war zone.

It. Um, no one, I think in those original sermons could have realized, possibly realized how patriotic he was, how much of a rebel he was of in, in support of the personal liberties. And so when you think about Colonial America, you think about the pe, the person that has the most influence in, in any town was the local pastor.

I mean, they worked and, and, and ate and slept six [00:12:00] days a week. On the seventh day is the one day they took a break. They all went to church and one guy gets up and stands there and he basically tells them what they should be thinking about, what they should be talking about and what they should be acting upon.

And Peter Thacher, when the Boston Massacre occurred, not only was he in an in an influential position, but he was arguably the greatest orator of that ever. So the Town of Malden, week in and week out, listen to Peter Thacher talk about the importance of. Personal liberties

Kathi: and the inalienable rights given to them by God.

'cause they truly did believe at that time that God had sanctioned. Um, humans to do self-governance. And so that was, and the other very important thing about Malden, it was right across the Mystic River from Boston and every single day farmers put their main product hay onto the penny ferry and went to Boston.

So they were not only being educated by Reverend Thatcher, they knew. Intimately what was happening [00:13:00] in Boston? Um, it was occupied in 1768. Now we're talking about 1770. So they knew everything, um, much closer in connection. It was Charlestown and it was Malden that were right there, right in the hub, outside of the war zone.

Jim: And they were like allowed to go in and out of Boston because they were not only feeding, you know, the citizens, they were feeding the troops. So they were the ones bringing beef in and chicken and, and vegetables. So they just kind of walked in like invisible, you know? What do they call the people now play that changed the scenery and stuff?

Yeah. Stage crew. Stage crew, they, they were like [00:14:00] just walked in and walked out, but they were listening to, you know, people like John Adams and Sam Adams talk about, you know, that the importance of independence. So, I mean, they were really the most UpToDate town. With what was going on in Boston, and that's where all that support came,

Kathi: which didn't, not the most, but one of 'em, I mean, Charlestown, Cambridge, Lexington, Concord, they were all, um, very in tune.

But Malden was farmers just kinda like marble headwood fishermen. And so they were not, um, what was considered the elite class. They were truly the working class, which separated them a little bit from the citizens of Boston.

Bill: May I ask? This is the easiest interview I've ever done, by the way. Were you surprised by this? I mean, did you have this knowledge be

Jim: I was floored. I was floored. 'cause I love American history and I've, you know, I've been on the Freedom Trail and in these, all the, all the different Boston historic sites, sites. I went to a Catholic, [00:15:00] Malvin Catholic, which is a great school in Malden and not. Had a tremendous, a great um, American, American history teacher for the Tim Scaler.

I never heard one word about Maldens role about the Malden instructions about the Rising Eagle, and I'm thinking,

Kathi: and Malden Catholics is half a mile down the road.

Jim: Yeah. From, so it's an eagle was, it's, you know, and it's amazing to me. It would just tie it, it just, when you bring it local, it just makes it all the more real, you know?

And so, yes, I was floored. Absolutely Floyd.

Kathi: I mean, we found out in this research that on the night of Paul Revere's ride, one of the horsemen went directly to Sign of the Rising Eagle, and they call it the Middlesex alarm that started, um, the collection. And many people have heard of the Malden Men. Men.

Well, 18 of those men, men came from North Malden, Melrose, or Pond Field, and they marched two or three miles to Gooch Park to March three miles down to Malden [00:16:00] so that they could march out to Lexington and Concord. Yeah. Like we don't even want to cross the street.

Bill: I goosebumps. How do people not know this? How are folks to this now that I'm, you've, you've publicized this and.

Jim: Yeah. No, they loved hearing the story. I, we have one of our floor managers at our, at our, at the Rising Eagle, and he, I mean, he has me tell that story like. Sometimes a dozen times a night and, and people, they, they really, they really enjoy it. But I

Kathi: will tell you, there's a number of citizens in Melrose who are descendants still of the ops and of the Spragues and some of the other families that the, the names of their ancestors are on our wall.

As part of the 18 that marched on the night of, um, April 18th, 1775,

Jim: there was one one of the ma Miniman came from. North Maum, which is Melrose now, but his name was finna Sprague. He was 54 years old and all I can think of is Braveheart. They said he was they, [00:17:00] they talk about his fearlessness and just running into the war.

Bullets flying and him shooting and, you know, hat waving. He was just like, they said, he was unbelievable. And on actually on, on the, on the battle of Bunka Hill, he is on his way, he's crossing the mystic in a rowboat and a British flotilla comes up and starts firing cannons at him, cannonballs at him, and he stands there and dares him to hit 'em.

And they, they take a few shots and they miss them and they end up having to get back. So. He ends up going back and says, I had to go back and dig up one of those cannonballs to re remember the devil's by. So this is

Liz: Oh my gosh. Well, um, Jim, will you tee up, you know, the, the Malden instructions for us?

Jim: Sure. So back to John Adams. Um, you know, John Adams arrived in Philadelphia in May of 1775. He is immediately surrounded by several delegates and they inform him. Mr. Adams, you have a Massachusetts problem. [00:18:00] You need to figure that out on your own. They all knew Adams because he attended the first Continental Congress and he's had to be the most outspoken person on the planet.

So Adams being Adams would have none of it. He is relentless. He is a master strategist, but most importantly, John Adams is the greatest debater this country's ever had. He starts, it takes him a year. Before he finally flips enough and he finally sees, and it's now May of 1776, and he says, I've got it.

This vote's gonna happen within weeks. He's strategizing with his two fellow delegates from Massachusetts, his second cousin, Sam Adams and John Hancock, and then there's a new crisis because they're from Massachusetts, they are sworn to uphold the will of the people of Massachusetts. They cannot answer.

They cannot answer that, that question honestly. So in order to resolve the question, [00:19:00] they send an Express Rider back to Massachusetts to the Provincial Congress with one simple question. It

Kathi: is important to note here that one of the reasons they were so uncertain is because it was on March 17th, 1776 that George Washington had gracefully escorted the British outta Boston.

So most of the fighting had really left Massachusetts. It had moved down to Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Long Island. So as they're in Philadelphia. They really aren't totally convinced that all of the citizens of Massachusetts want this declaration because it is Shirley treason and they all say we hang as one or we all hang together.

So,

Jim: so they ask for a vote, first town to vote without any hesitation. It is a unanimous vote. I get the chills when, when I say that. Um, it's, and it comes with a title, Malden instructions. Um, it's considered amongst the greatest writings in American history that people that know about [00:20:00] it, um, its final sentence is by far the most quoted.

This is how it ends. Give them the strongest assurance that if they should declare America to be a free and independent republic, your constituents will support and defend the measure to the last drop of their blood and the last fathering of their treasure. I always think, you know, John Adams, when he heard those words or read those words.

He must have been like Tom Brady coming out of the tunnel that it is time to go

Kathi: game on and, and while it is not officially signed by Peter Thatcher, all historians surely believe that, hi, his pen was, um, yeah. Very heavy on that paper. Yeah.

Jim: Well, another story, John, when John Adams returns to Massachusetts, he's asked to write the Massachusetts Constitution and he happens to go find a guy named Peter Thacher to help him write that.

Bill: Isn't that so?

Liz: Wow. Well, um, I mean, I guess. Speaking of John [00:21:00] Adams, I mean, I feel like I'm just teeing up other things to, for you all to tell these wonderful stories. Um, I know you two have a kind of a, a secret or not so secret passion for John Adams and, um, know,

Jim: I am gonna let Kathy take this, take this one. But I have to say, I, I, I. To me because of what his role was, what he accomplished in, in that year before the, to that lit up to the so declaration. He, he has to be the most unrecognized person in American history. I mean, there is not a statue of John Adams in Washington dc There is not a statue of John Adams in the city of Boston.

I mean, he's like, he is the man, not

Kathi: a statue of John Adams anywhere in the United States, except for in front of his house in Quincy, Massachusetts.

Jim: Right. And just when you think about how his contemporaries are memorialized, whether, you know, [00:22:00] you know, you think about the Washington Memorial and the, or the Jefferson monument gonna back stuff.

Mm-hmm. But, um, you know, Mount Rushmore and this John Adams. It's like

Kathi: nothing. Well, one thing about John Adams though, which is was great, is because he was an attorney and because he had defended the British and because he had truly worked extremely hard to create a um, resolution with the issues with Britain, he was intimately knowledgeable about the fact that there was gonna be no.

Living together. He had tried and tried and tried, so that's why it took him so long. But the other thing about John Adams is he happened to have a brilliant wife named Abigail, and they probably were America's first Palor couple. And it's very interesting 'cause Abigail Adams was one of the first women to actually save the writings.

'cause I learned later that women of that era found the writings between them and their hundred husbands to be something very intimate [00:23:00] and very private. So they all burned them. But Abigail Adams saved her writings. And so, um, I have a dream that one day in the middle of Boston common, there's going to be a statute of the first power cusp couple of John and Abigail Adams.

Now Abigail already has a statue in Boston, John doesn't.

Liz: Wow.

Jim: One of my favorite quotes in, in, in all of American history comes from king George III one. John Adams is the first delegate to represent the United States to go and meet the king. And he's, as the king is getting ready to figure out who's coming in next to the door, they tell him, um, that it's John Adams from, from United States, from Boston.

And so his, his, his comment, and this is in the McCullough book, basically is, I've heard of one Mr. Adams, who's the other. And when you think about that quote. [00:24:00] King George just lost the, the most important chess match in the history of humankind, mankind. And he didn't know he was playing against, I mean, John Adams was, he was the one that was orchestrating the entire thing.

He's, Adams is the one that, that nominates Washington become. The General Adams is the one that tells Thomas Jefferson to go write the Declaration of Independence, even though he had already written it. But he knew that, that, that Jefferson would write it better. He was a better writer than, than than Adams was.

I. But, and, and, and Adams also felt was following up a, a, some advice that he was given that he had to allow the people, the, the delegates from Virginia to go first. They had to be the, they had to be the lead for, for the, in order for everybody to kind of support what was going on. And he, he followed that to the T and he was successful.

Bill: Thank goodness for John Adams. We do need a statue. I

gotta.

Kathi: I know.

Bill: You should build one, but in front of your restaurant I guess, you [00:25:00] know, if you sound like Patriots, you really do. You got a big birthday coming up for the United States.

Um,

Kathi: a big birthday in Massachusetts this

year.

Jim: Yeah, yeah,

Bill: show, don't you?

Jim: yeah,

Kathi: we do. We get two

Bill: Well, you I know it's the 250th birthday of the United States. You may not have a statue. Are you doing anything special at the restaurant? You got any ideas that you'd like to share about?

Kathi: Well. We do a lot about American history all year long. Every year, regardless, it was a pretty big day. But next year, on May 27th, 1776 will be the day of the signing of the Malden instructions, which was the first official vote for independence in the country. So that's pretty exciting. Um, in general. One of the most exciting things that's happening, it's actually happening where our fish company is in Gloucester, Massachusetts.

In two weekends, they are doing a full reenactment of the baby of Bunker Hill, right at Stage four Park in Gloucester. They're [00:26:00] expecting over 700. Um, reenactor to come from all over the world. They're, and they are reenacting from the sea to the hills, um, for, for a two day weekend. So that's really exciting and we are actually participating in that not only with, um, serving some of the.

Um, volunteer reenactors, um, local fish chowder, but we'll have a chowder stand and also be explaining to people so much more. 'cause one of the things I I, if I was younger or someone wants to like, reach out to me, I truly believe that every. Township of the original colonies should have a public house because every single one of them did.

And every single one of them had their own history that they played in our initial fights for freedom. And well now we have a lot more towns Back then, these towns were large, much bigger. And I believe that if each town created their own public house, which is a community gathering space, what we based the rising Eagle on, um, [00:27:00] they can.

Cr, they can allow the history and the importance of their citizens and their ancestors to live on past. Because right now people think the American Revolution was a few battles here and there, and then it was over, but it wasn't. I mean, it was like 14, 15 years long and so many people sacrificed so much.

So that is another thing. Other than the statue of John and Abigail Adams, I think everyone should have their own tavern or public house that celebrates what their town contributed.

Bill: Well, I smell a franchising opportunity for you guys.

Kathi: No, no, no. We're, we're on the back nine.

Liz: Oh my gosh. Well, thank you so much. Yes. This has been, um, you two, I know you're praising, you know, John Adams and, and um, Peter Thatcher, but you two are. Great storyteller, so I really appreciate you all coming on the podcast and, um,

Bill: and give it a North Carolinian, a [00:28:00] chance to pop their chest out a little bit too and say, we forget these things and you can't help but just full of pride.

Jim: Yeah.

Bill: I mean, so thank you for that. Really

Jim: we're just excited

Kathi: to, to share the stories. Yeah. You know, if you don't keep sharing them, sometimes they get lost.

Bill: Absolutely. I guess everybody can go to the restaurant and hear it firsthand. Yeah, you'll just sit down. Alright. you guys. What a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Kathi: It's been our pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

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