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We’re reflecting on some of the conversations POCACITO was fortunate to be a part of, four of which we want to share with you. Two of these talks took place as part of POCACITO events, and two are one-to-one interviews.
One thing that kept coming up is that the critical work of environmental and climate justice is happening at the local level. And it’s being led by civil society.
We met with community organizers and activists from Kyiv; Berlin; St. James Parish, Louisiana; and Superior, Arizona, to learn what this work looks like, and how we can help.
Electronic music track X1 by frankum -- https://freesound.org/s/426470/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Pocacido Conversations. Today's episode takes us to Jamaica Bay in New York City and was recorded on Sunday, 02/08/2026. I'm Max Grunich, your host for today, and I met with Elizabeth Stuhr, deputy director with the Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy, and her colleague, Anil Pasram, stewardship programs manager with the Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy, as well as wetlands fellows Devin Johnson and Matthew Wojcick. They brave pretty low temperatures to meet on one of the coldest days of the season. This is part one of two of recordings around Jamaica Bay.
Speaker 1:Elizabeth is a member of the German American nature based solutions Exchange GANBase, a program run by Pocasito and supported by the Transatlantic Program of the Federal Republic Of Germany, funded by the European Recovery Program of the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. I first talked to Elizabeth at the Jamaica Bay Parks Conservancy office in Rockaway Park on Jamaica Bay before meeting Anil and the wetlands fellows at the Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge Visitor Center. We then ventured out into the cold taking what is normally a quaint stroll. So we're standing here in front of a map of Jamaica Bay. And Elizabeth tell us a little bit the backstory of these two islands and and what happened here.
Speaker 2:Okay. So
Speaker 3:I was involved in the restoration projects on Rulers Bar and Blackwall. During the deepening of New York Harbor, sediment was taken from that process and transported by the Army Corps of Engineers to restore Yellow Bar Hassick and also Blackwall and Ruler's Bar. And Yellow Bar was restored before Hurricane Sandy in the years prior to that and completely planted and managed by Army Corps of Engineers. But Blackwall and Rulers Bar were a community led effort, the restoration. Army Corps pumped the sand onto the islands, but the restoration was led by the Jamaica Bay Echo Watchers and the American Literal Society.
Speaker 3:So we recruited volunteers and spent several years planting and restoring those marsh islands, all as a community led effort. The restoration started right after hurricane Sandy. The sand was placed before the storm, but the following year, we recruited hundreds of volunteers to go out. And you can understand that hurricane Sandy devastated this area, devastated the Broad Channel community and all of the surrounding communities. Despite that, we had hundreds of people that volunteered to come out and restore.
Speaker 3:And that, you know, in a large part were community members. So it just I mean, it's a testament to the resolve of the community to be involved in the process, but also their understanding of the value of these marsh islands and how restoration was important. So while they were rebuilding their communities, their homes, their houses, the infrastructure, they were also helping to replant these islands.
Speaker 1:So basically, Blackwall and Rulis Bar, they they kind of right in front of Broad Channel. Yes. And so they would also if they rebuild it, this would also protect the community from future storms. Was that the idea?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. So these marsh islands are, you know, salt marsh and and the goal is to recreate them as really viable, vibrant, thriving, healthy salt marsh systems. So that that kind of a system acts as a sponge. It absorbs storm surge, and it protects in many ways, not only from storm surge, but wind and weather. And as these storms become increasingly more frequent and more dangerous, they're a really, really vital system to help protect frontline communities, and all of this is frontline communities.
Speaker 1:And and you said there was already before Hurricane Sandy, there was a plan to rebuild and restore these. Why were they so yeah. What why was there a need to restore them? Why were they gone? Was there like sand extraction or was it just washed out or how did they be in need of restoration?
Speaker 3:Well, so the salt marsh in Jamaica Bay has been eroding for hundreds of years. Right? So what was once this incredible complex of wetlands and salt marsh has been slowly lost due to infill. Much of this is built up. It's hard infrastructure.
Speaker 3:All of the soft edges have been lost. There have been channels that have deepened the system. Salt Marsh has been lost at a rate of over 40 to 50 acres a year. We've lost approximately 98 of the fringe marshes, the marsh that rings Jamaica Bay, and much of the marsh islands. A lot of that is due not only to development but to pollution, to nitrogen loading.
Speaker 3:I mean, this is an urban estuary in the greatest sense, probably the most urban estuary in the country. And so the threats to it are immense. There's four water treatment plants that remit. There's combined sewer outflows that flow into Jamaica Bay. Yet the the watershed for Jamaica Bay is so dense, approximately 3,000,000 people live in the watershed, with 1,000,000 people living right adjacent to Jamaica Bay.
Speaker 3:So what was once a wild natural area that had great systems for filtering runoff is now just an urban estuary. So restoring the marsh islands not only protects habitat and, you know, ecosystem function for wildlife and for birds, but it's it's really protection for all of these frontline communities.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's it's amazing. I was just talking to somebody at the concert yesterday Yeah. And she's a dancer and I mentioned this and and she immediately she got actually proud even though she doesn't live right here, but she said, yeah, in New York, we have this huge nature in the city which is Jamaica Bay. And so, there was actually, of course, she's like environmentally minded, but she was aware of it.
Speaker 2:Oh, that makes
Speaker 1:felt like special because of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. She she had this New York style pride
Speaker 4:in it.
Speaker 1:Like, I love even though I don't know if she's done any of restoration work, but she feels proud to be a New Yorker also because of that. So that's kind of interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, I that's those are the stakeholders we want to meet and create and cultivate. Right? Because this is the last largest open space in New York City. It is also a critical place for migratory species. It's along the Atlantic Flyway.
Speaker 3:There's over 330 species of birds that are resident populations, migratory populations. There's over 90 species of finfish. The bunker, the the menhaden, one of the most important fish in the sea, as they say, migrates through this space. It is it is critical in terms of a built Eastern Coast that this is one of the most vibrant ecosystems along that flyway. And and the fact that this is in Brooklyn and Queens
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's stunning.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. It really is amazing. And it's also amazing because here we're standing in front of the map, and so we can see the depth of the whole thing, which is very often it's two feet, three feet, six feet. So very shallow, which you're not aware of when you look at it from and then that really makes it even more amazing because it's not deep at all.
Speaker 1:So it's more it's like what you said, it's salt marshes and ponds and Yeah. So so later we'll be at the West Pond, you said, and that's fully enclosed. Has it was it always enclosed like that or is there any exchange of water with like salt water coming in or is it fully yeah. Is it is it fully closed off?
Speaker 3:Well, so the the West Pond is a freshwater pond, which is a really incredibly critical resource, especially for migratory species. And so it is all man made. This goes back to the Robert Moses era, and there is a West Pond Loop Trail that goes around it. It is part of the wildlife refuge, and it is really a beloved local resource and also a resource for visitors. But during hurricane Sandy, the West Pond was breached.
Speaker 3:The storm hit New York City in 2012, and the West Pond breached allowed that fresh water to mix with the brackish water of Jamaica Bay. It created kind of a tidal system there, but what was lost was this really great habitat that the the freshwater provided. And it also, you know, destroyed the West Pond Trail, which, you know, visitors wanted and wanted preserved. So that's when we came in was to help restore that and to help the National Park Service come up with a solution for maintaining that.
Speaker 1:And how long did it take to rebuild?
Speaker 3:It took many years. So the West Pond Trail happened. The breach happened in 2012. The National Park Service repaired the trail in 2017. But by that time, the erosion was pretty significant.
Speaker 3:That shoreline had really thinned out, and it was left really, really vulnerable. So it was only really a matter of time before it happened again. So in response to that, the Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy spearheaded what is called now the West Pond Living Shoreline. We worked with the Jamaica Bay Echo Watchers really to lead that project in partnership with other partners like Billion Oyster Project, the male the American Literal Society. And we also really, what is critical as part of this is our public private partnership with the National Park Service with whom we share all things and our partners on it.
Speaker 3:So we started that restoration in 2020 and 2021. Installation finished around 2022. And then we we finished design and construction, and little did we know at the time, that's really when the challenges began, not when they ended. So
Speaker 1:You mean you mean challenges financially or
Speaker 3:Not financially. What what we learned is that, at at that time, construction, you know, there was a lot of handshakes and a lot of congratulations, and we walked away from a shoreline that not only we had raised a lot of money, worked with a lot of partners and communities and stakeholders and this incredible design and installation. It was a real layered installation. It had, you know, wave breaks, energy dissipation kind of measures. We had over 200,000 native plants.
Speaker 3:We installed 50,000 cubic yards of sediment, created 23 acres of habitat. So it was this incredible effort. It was a really beautiful design. But within a year, all of that had altered and changed. Most of that had been lost.
Speaker 3:The wave breaks, the the core logs, and the systems that we had set out had all washed away within the year. The native plants, we lost 90% of the plantings that went in. We are working with the Science and Resilience Center at Jamaica Bay to monitor the shoreline. That first year monitoring report confirmed exactly what we saw, that 90% of the plantings were dead or lost, and that it was clearly visible, that none of the wave break structures structures that we had installed and spent, you know, weeks designing and installing, they were all gone within months. The first winter, the system didn't survive its first winter.
Speaker 1:And do you know why was it such a harsh winter? Was there many storms, or what caused this? Do you know, like, what what's your or what was your first assessment then maybe, and what's your view now?
Speaker 3:I think that we knew at the time that this was these were natural measures that we were putting out there. That's part of doing work in a national park. Right? None of this was rock or walls or engineered in that way. It was engineered in a way that was designed to degrade over time, that it would break down and become more of a natural system.
Speaker 3:The measures that we put to install were there to protect the plants. The idea was that they would last long enough to allow the plants time to to root, to get strong, and to survive the winds and the tides. The reality was that we had winter storms and we had ice, and they were dramatic, but they weren't that dramatic Mhmm. That the system just could not survive the fetch and the energy. The real incredibly dynamic energy of this shoreline was such that we just could not have anticipated.
Speaker 3:But it was a it was a real learning lesson for us. It it made us understand that we had to spend more time on the shoreline experimenting, and this was an experiment. This was a sense that we've never done this before. We've never done it in this place on the shoreline in this way. I think like so many nature based solutions, it's exactly that kind of attack.
Speaker 3:You have to do something, so you do something. And then when it fails or if it fails, you take that as a lesson. Right? And you mobilize, you adapt, you manage. And so that's what we learned.
Speaker 3:We learned that the system had radically failed in ways we could not have anticipated, and we had a choice to either get out on the ground, get to work, and do whatever we could to save the investment and also save the energy and the commitment of all these people that we had brought to the table. But I had no anticipation really of how much that would take and how that effort is still going on today and will probably go on for as long as I can anticipate.
Speaker 1:And in comparison to for example, yellow bar black wall rulers bar, Did they work better the measures there? Did they also need redoing or were they more permanent?
Speaker 3:I I would say that the measures on the marsh islands did not involve wave breaks and, you know, sort of installations that were designed to absorb energy erosion and hold sand and sediment in place. They were strictly plantings and fencing. They did not survive in some capacity. I would say that all of those restoration sites are struggling. There's areas of success.
Speaker 3:There's areas that things have done well. What happened is that, you know, the sediment was pumped onto these islands and graded to a very specific elevation, much like we did at the West Pond. It was very beautifully graded, very specific, but the wind and the waves and the tides immediately alter that. There is no sense that we could anticipate the degree to which that would happen. And I would think now that the lessons we have learned at the West Pond, which have been great and we are still learning, we need to now revisit these other restoration sites, Yellow Bar, Blackwall, and Rulers Bar, with what we have learned, knowing that the greatest lesson is that these installations are not one time activities.
Speaker 3:They are activities that require a great deal of adaptive management. They require boots on the ground, and they require ongoing maintenance. Yellow Bar, Black Wall, and Rilles Bar, I think, is my goal in the next couple of years to return to these sites and to get to work and do what we have done at the West Pond and take those lessons that we've learned and install some of the measures and some of the the management techniques we've learned to not only keep what is working there and to learn about what is working there, but to expand it and scale it on those islands.
Speaker 1:If we look at the map, I mean, when we have broad channel, then we have basically what first first row is ruler's bar, and then in front of that black wall, and in front of it yellow bar. So they're basically like protective layers for
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Anything incoming from a northeastern direction.
Speaker 3:Exactly. And in like so many of the storms we get, they're they're cyclical. Right? They they cycle and they turn and the wind is, you know, I think that many of these communities are used to living with the water. They they understand the tides, they move their cars, they alter what they do based on the tide ranges, and you know winter tides, spring tides, full moon tides, but the real damage comes when that tide is combined with great wind.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And so all of this, these marsh complexes help mitigate that.
Speaker 1:So you're not running out of work anytime I
Speaker 3:wish I could say we were, but what's exciting is that we are learning and we are finding real success. You know, we were faced with complete failure at the West Pond, Living Shoreline, and the that was incredibly shocking, especially after the layers of investment and community partnership and, you know, the partnership with the National Park Service. And so to be able to slowly work at that and learn from failure, understand we piloted hundreds of different types of techniques, and when something worked, we scale it. And as we're getting further and further along, we're we're learning moments of success and we're having real I mean, I can I can say right now, I think the shoreline is succeeding, and that's the difference between 2021, 2023, and now 2026? The shoreline is accruing sediment.
Speaker 3:The the Spartina ultraflora is approximately knee to thigh high. It's dense. It really is working. We need to find a system that requires less on the ground maintenance now that we're at this stage, but I am so excited to take the lessons we've learned and to revisit these other restoration sites and use some of those techniques.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, Devin, so nice of you taking time for meeting and having a short talk.
Speaker 6:No. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Luckily, we're indoors, so it's a good thing today. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 6:Awesome. My name is Devin Johnson. I'm from South Elsin Park, colloquially known as, Southside Jamaica, Queens in the New York Queens area. And Jamaica Bay has been my backyard, So, I'm really invested in making sure it has a healthier relationship with both its people and its environment, and it's been really awesome working with it. What brought me out here, honestly, I was looking for a career shift.
Speaker 6:I was a computer science major and was in, like, tech sector, but coming from farmers on both side of my family and my mom with her side, hanging out with my neighbors or being in my yard, helping her with her garden. And as I got older, I kinda wanted to, like, bring that into my adulthood, and I wanted to make sure, like, whatever career that I end up being in is something that isn't just a passion of mine, but something I feel like I'm, like, having a positive impact with. So I wanted to make a career shift, and I ended up changing my major to earth and planetary sciences and ended up finding and looking for other job opportunities and was lucky enough to find out about JBRPC and was able to be brought on as a fellow last year as part of their twenty twenty five wetland fellows, got picked and selected to be, a fellowship leader, and it's been awesome. Ever since working here at the West Pond has been a gift, to be honest.
Speaker 1:So so you actually enjoy the work?
Speaker 6:Yeah. I really do. Like, there's definitely hard days. Like, it's definitely not always the warmest or definitely like, today's a perfect example. And sometimes it's too warm.
Speaker 6:But also, go figure that work like, the type of people that want to save the environment and protect animals are some of the best type of people to work around when it comes to working attitudes. So it's a very motivational space to be in. It's it's a great office, really. That's the best way I can describe it, like, when you have some of the, like, the the best office in the city. You get to look at the bay.
Speaker 6:You get to sometimes see clovers and see butterflies that are my on their migratory path or just other birds that you usually don't get to see. Even getting to see the terrapin is honestly, like every time I see just little woodchuck when I'm working in Marine Park, it's great. So I I love the work. It's experiences that a native New Yorker would think they would have to leave their own city for, and I'm really thankful that I have the opportunity to just get into my own backyard.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. And and what's your plans for the future? I mean, how how is this how is this continuing, and do you have any ideas or your eyes set on something?
Speaker 6:Oh, no. Thank you for asking. I was actually just having this conversation with, Anil, my supervisor, and I'm looking to get into horticulture, botany, maybe something related to the, genetic genetics and in the bi in the biological sciences because I'm really interested in humans' relationship with plants, not just for, like, an agricultural standpoint, but horticulture in general. Like, the plants that we have in our public spaces that we use for our mental health benefit, their survival, the relationship we've had with these plants that we brought with us when we move as a society, how they have changed genetically, both, like, physically, phenotypically, and on the inside in ways that we haven't noticed, how our society and us changing has changed these plants, and if there's something to be discovered in that relationship. If we can have a, like, if we can discover and have a better relationship with some of the plants that we have in our parks, like, say we find out that some of them have a not so healthy I'm trying to think of the word when when you all exhume fumes because plants do them too.
Speaker 6:Say some of them, we find out they, like, maybe don't give out the best, exhaust or some of them aren't the best, like, nitrogen or carbon sequesters or some of them don't, have as, positive impact in our environment as other ones could. I really wanna get into that because I feel like if we bridge public interest or just social interest in, the things that are going on in our active neighborhood, whether that's as, like, the plant selection or the actual, like, population of the species, endangered or otherwise, I feel like people could have a better impact in their neighborhood if we just know. If we just know what's going on. And I think that's also how you get people to care by even letting them know that there's something to be cared about.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Yeah. And then you think this is really, like, your life common in a way?
Speaker 6:Yeah. I would I would actually yeah. I'm fine. I I don't think I would have been able to say that maybe, like, a year and a half ago, but after the fellowship, yeah, I definitely think so. I I feel not necessarily kind of better at peace.
Speaker 6:I feel driven. Like, just kind of a a it's nice to be at peace, but also to, like, be doing something where you feel like you're not even, like, working on yourself. You're where you're supposed to live. Like, you're you're I feel like don't know. I just I feel really, really, really happy when I'm getting my hands dirty when I'm in the field.
Speaker 6:And then going back to, like, talk to my friends about the different work that we did reporting, Like, be like, oh, I planted this many or, like, I removed this, this many pounds of trash, or I I I saw these invasive species that they didn't even know that was growing in this area, we handled it because this mile a minute would have gotten out of control if we left this here. Like, just stuff like that makes me feel like we're doing impactful work in a tactile way, but also connecting it, to people in a way that they can carry on. And I really like that. I really like that.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Fantastic. Hi, Anil. Good seeing you again.
Speaker 7:Nice seeing you again, Max.
Speaker 1:So maybe tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got into this job. How like, it's not, like, on everybody's mind maybe when they think about what they're going to do. So this is interesting to hear from us.
Speaker 7:Well, thanks for talking to speaking with me today. My name is Anil. I am the stewardship programs manager at Jamaica Way Rockaway Parks Conservancy. I first got into this role by doing a capstone course in Queens College. This is back in 2020, and it was a it was a partner of a partner organization with JBRPC.
Speaker 7:They're called American Literal Society. I did a course for Queen's College, but also led me into my first summer job, summer intern. And from there, it kinda spiraled into, you know, seasonal jobs, working with partners. And then I landed another position that was part of Jamaica Bay Rockwood Parks' workforce development program back in 2020 to 2021. It was during the time of the West Bond Living Shoreline creation, so I was there to see, the beginnings of it.
Speaker 7:And I'm now here in '20 starting from 2023 working alongside the project.
Speaker 1:So it's been already a couple of years then. Yeah? So you're you're like a veteran in this.
Speaker 7:I would like to consider myself a veteran. Yes. But also is moving into the the term of a stakeholder or a practitioner, which I like, you know, being told or being used nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Abs absolutely. So maybe since you've really seen and done this a couple of years, like, how has it changed over the years? Or did you did do you notice any change?
Speaker 7:Specifically, on the West Pond, live in Shoreline. Back in 2021, it was great to see all the plantings in the ground. It's great to be able to put on the last, you know, flagging tapes and the and the stringing of the the shoreline, maybe wrapping up the project. But in 2023, when I came on board, I was also able to see the major changes and the alterations of the shoreline. So a lot of the stuff that we, you know, hoped that it would be successful kind of failed and then do didn't do as well.
Speaker 7:So in 2023, we got to, you know, the beginnings of the Boylan fellowship. Our work was the Boylan program, and we were able to do get get straight to work on the shoreline.
Speaker 1:And are you optimistic? Like, of course, for this year, it's too early to do much right now with the weather as it is. But as soon as we have the thaw and maybe then what are are you optimistic about this year and doing some measures this year?
Speaker 7:It's funny you say that because I was optimistic from the moment I hopped back into the project. So back in 2023, even after say seeing all the, you know, the kind of failures of the project, I was still able to see, like, we could we could get this thing fixed up in in a jiffy. So it wasn't, I was never not optimistic. I was also always hopeful that all we had to do is put a little bit of work, put a little blood, sweat, and tears into the project, and it will get going. Even with the thaw, we were out here last month just kinda fixing some fence and fit doing some, some work on it, but the the the ice and the the freeze really, you know, paused it for now.
Speaker 7:But as soon as the spring comes out, I'm gonna have the work workforce development program out there again and just doing some more work. But the growth for the past few years has been astonishing, and the project is, I think, exactly where we wanted we wanted it to be back in 2023.
Speaker 1:Maybe you can tell me, though I mean, you say you're you or you sound like you're really an optimist or a positive person. So what do you like about your work? What what what do you think makes it something you enjoy doing?
Speaker 7:Well, the position and I'm in, it was kind of a dream position. I mean, from within college, growing up within high school, going all the way back then, I mean, I didn't know exactly where I wanted to do or wanted to be, but I know I wanted to get my hands on the environment. I wanted to do something that I could use my body with and then see some changes. And this is the kind of the position that I'm in right now that I'm able to do that, do restoration work, but also get others involved, get people that were in my space back in you know, when I when I was in college looking for a position, looking for a job, get them into it right away, without the degree, without the four years of college. So that's my my my favorite piece of it is just being able to put those give those opportunities for those that were in my space when I was in college.
Speaker 1:Great. Great. And here where we are sitting, I mean, it's a beautiful way to sit and look out without being cold. The center, can you tell me a little bit about where we are right here?
Speaker 7:Currently, we're in the Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge. This is kind of the visitor center. Just like any national park, there's always where you could learn about what's going on in the environment, what's going on with the park, and why the deformation of this park came to be. As you you could look around us, there's historical renderings of what Jamaica Bay used to be, the wildlife that's all you could find, and just what's in the environment. So this is a great center for classes, education, adults just to come out and learn about what's in, you know, a few minutes away from the city or what they consider New York City, the urban area, the dense urban area.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. And so later, we'll go out there. Have you been out in around the West Pond, recently in this kind of very cold weather?
Speaker 7:Not recently, but last year, we were in here without the ice, without the the freeze, but with the crazy winds. We did some work out there, and it it was a it was a challenge. But one of the my favorite pieces of it is being out there at 6AM, looking at the sunrise, but also looking at the wildlife pass over to West Pond, landing on one on landing on the marsh islands and just seeing the environment at a piece.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Anil. Hello.
Speaker 8:I'm Matthew Wojcick. I'm from the Rockaways. So, like, I'm very much, like, invested in the the Jamaica Bay area. Like, in terms of, like, interest and why this affects me is, like, the wetlands area are, like, a major source of, like, habitat for, like, native and, like like, passing like, migrating animals, like like birds as a whole wildlife refuge here. In addition, like, I'm studying for my master's at Brooklyn College, and I'm studying environmental studies.
Speaker 8:So wetlands are also a source of, like, nitrogen fixation. We're just turning inner nitrogen into, like, usable, food for, like well, usable energy for plants. And, again, that, like, promotes, a form of, like, diversity because, like, the wetlands here are are I believe, like, the statistic is, like, 70% of nitrogen fixation, like, happens to wetlands. And because of the human activity, like, dredging and, like, boat, like, boat, like, transports, like, a lot of this stuff is eroding away, and there's less and less land for, like, grass to grow and the soil to develop. So I'm glad to be part of this fellow well, I was a fellow here, and I helped, like, build, like, wave breakers and preventative measures.
Speaker 8:Because not only is it, like, just for environment, building more green spaces, like, in the wetlands helps, like, with flooding because, like, I was here in hurricane Sandy. And with the gray infrastructure, which is, the human infrastructure, the water just, like, travels on top of the asphalt, the sidewalk, and, like, bulldozes houses down and stuff. But if there's more greenery, more soil than, like, the the water the salt absorbs some of that water, so it's not that bad as bad.
Speaker 1:So so you were here during hurricane
Speaker 8:Yes, Sandy.
Speaker 1:And and, did you evacuate, or were you at home?
Speaker 8:Or Oh, we stayed at home Yeah. Because I live in a slightly slight slightly hilly place in the Rockaways. It's 99th Street. But we saw, like, the boardwalk collapsing and, like, parts of the boardwalk. They went, like, like, almost like a mile in in in land.
Speaker 8:Like, parts of the boardwalk end up, like, in Sunset Cove, which is, like, past the peninsula into almost, like, Broad Channel. So it it was, like, insane to see that. Like and it was really, like, eye opening. And that was, like, one of the, like, early I I was, like, really young then, but, like, that was, like, one of, like, the main factors that brought an interest in, like, just the environment. Also, my parents, like, fostered that sort of, like, love of nature.
Speaker 8:I was also part of the Plover Project, which is, like, a a conservation organization volunteer based for coastal birds, and that also has a very much sort of, like, connection to the Jamaica Bay Area because, like, a lot of birds nest here as well. And yeah. And the like, this, I was a fellow here, and this helped, provide, like, data. I helped collect Spartina grass heights and densities and percent coverage. And now for my master's, I'm taking that very same data I collected in the field, and I'm putting it into, like, spreadsheets, and I'm doing, like, like, a like, a nova, like, post hoc analysis of, like, oh, how does the grass height change over the the years?
Speaker 8:Like, since, like, these wave bakers were installed, which I helped also install. So it's kinda, like, wonderful to be part of, like, installation, then, like, data logging, and then, like, inputting that data into in the academic setting. And, hopefully, using that sort of data we got to get more funding for this area.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's really unique also because a lot of people see us maybe for a year or two years unless they're working for Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy or so. Then, of course, they're maybe for longer. But for you so you're doing your masters, you're saying?
Speaker 8:Yes. Like
Speaker 1:so not sure when when when do you think you'll be graduating?
Speaker 8:I'm aiming for this fall, like, end of I'll get my credits, finished, in December, hopefully. And another thing is, working here help introduce me to, the s r s r I j b, the Scientific and Research Institute of Jamaica Bay at Brooklyn College under doctor Branco, which I'm taking a class with him now, which is inputting that data I got from the wetlands grass. And, like, the work around here facilitated that connection, which I am very grateful for. And yeah.
Speaker 1:And do you have plans for what you wanna do after December when you're graduating? I want to
Speaker 8:so I might I I'm interested in pursuing, like, a PhD. I'm just continuing on my education and perhaps, like, teaching classes with a focus on earth environmental and the wetlands habitat soils, like hydrology, that sort of stuff. Because I'm very interested, like, with, like, ArcGIS and, like, you know, geo mapping and just the different, like, factors that, like, come into protecting the flora and fauna of, like, the environment. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. And that's very, very helpful because, of course, very often, we still just try out things. And if they work, then it's great. And if not, then we have to try something else.
Speaker 1:But it's really helpful if we get more of an understanding for why do certain measures work somewhere or not. Of course, you never know. You get a bad storm in the early growing phase of a new planted grass, then, of course, you can't be that's not your out of your control. But there are things I think we still need to have much better understanding of how this actually works, to not repeat the same problems, basically, and to actually learn from mistakes, so to speak. Yeah.
Speaker 8:Precisely. Like, echoing what you just said, the the right here in the wildlife refuges, like, the the trials and failures also were, like, on, like, on display. Like, for the first year, they tried putting, like, these tuggers in the water and, like, grass plugs. Right? And they all got washed off, but now they're approaching it to, like, different angles.
Speaker 8:Construction fast fiends of Christmas trees and, like, using, like, you know, biodegradable, like, materials. And I think trying to, like, a like, a more stepped approach
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 8:And just making a living shoreline, just trying to create, like, a space for nature to, like, grow. And once you get spartina grass growing, it's a colony. It it starts to, like, help up new shoots out because it, like, stabilizes the soil so it won't, like, fall into the water Right. And rode. So, yeah, that's very important.
Speaker 8:And, like, you know, like you said, there there were failures, but I've over time, we get, like, formula right, I believe. And yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No. That's so important, getting the formula right. So I hope we have that, like, this year. There will be a lot of success from what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Matthew. We'll we'll get geared up a little bit and probably step out there into the cold ice snow for some field visit into what's what what at least what we can see. Right? A lot of origin snow and ice, but some of it we can see maybe.
Speaker 8:We to Max. Thank you.
Speaker 5:Wonderful. Okay. Max? So now we're in actual cold air.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 5:Do you know you jogged here. Yes. In in this air, do you not get cold air in your lungs?
Speaker 8:I didn't really that's what keeps them alive. Yeah. The thing, like, once I start jogging, I get
Speaker 1:I start warming up very much.
Speaker 5:Okay. Okay. Yeah. So, Elizabeth, that wouldn't be for us. Right?
Speaker 5:Jogging
Speaker 4:No. No way. Are kidding?
Speaker 5:That's a bit tough.
Speaker 2:I may have aged out of that jog in nine degree weather.
Speaker 5:Yes. Yes. Some point over the last decade. Okay. But it's beautiful.
Speaker 5:So, Elizabeth, you have binoculars. Do you think we'll see birds?
Speaker 2:I think we might see some of the snow geese. I'm hoping.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Are they active year around?
Speaker 2:No. They're not. They actually migrate here. They they spend the summer in the sort of Arctic tundra areas. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they're a really fun, sociable, loud, raucous group, and it's always fun when they arrive.
Speaker 5:So they think this is warm now?
Speaker 2:They think this is summer.
Speaker 5:Oh, wow. That's crazy. So Zach from the park service?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Zach is a ranger.
Speaker 5:Is he here full time?
Speaker 2:He is full time. He's one of a few full time people that are stationed here at the refuge. He's a terrific partner. He's a great naturalist and guide.
Speaker 5:And when the weather isn't quite as cold, he also goes outside.
Speaker 2:He does. Sometimes they leave the refuge. He helps us. He works with us and leads our some of our education classes we do in partnership.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Since I didn't ask you before, maybe you can tell me now a little bit. Do you wanna do your introductions now?
Speaker 4:Sure. So hi. Hi, Elizabeth. Hi, Max. How are you?
Speaker 5:I'm good. Thank you. Do you wanna tell me a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Sure. My name is Elizabeth Stoehr. I'm the deputy director of the Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy.
Speaker 5:And what got you into this job?
Speaker 2:I started working in restoration and workforce development about a decade ago. I became a resident of the local community living next to Jamaica Bay. I began working with Don Repee at the American Literal Society and eventually with JBRPC. And it's been my great honor to do restoration work. And in doing so, learn more and more about Jamaica Bay and about the community that lives around Jamaica Bay and helping to restore the wetlands.
Speaker 5:And what got you interested in, one, in this community? I mean, that's like it's like a, you know, it's like a hidden gem in a way. People don't associate when you say New York City. They don't think well, most people don't think beach for one, but most people certainly don't think nature. So how did you how did you get into this space, and then what brought you to think I wanna help it and support it?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, living in New York City, I love New York City, but we we desperately miss sort of access to nature and the outdoors. And when we moved to the Rockaways, it was so incredibly refreshing and exciting to be part of a community like this. I'm a military kid, and I'd never lived very long in one place. So to find a community that is generations deep, that is fiercely protective and proud of who they are and of their, their neighborhood, it was it was really my great honor to move into that and become part of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We we also lived through Superstorm Sandy as community residents and
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Nothing like a natural disaster to to make you pull together as a community and make you feel part of of that effort of rebuilding restoring and and meeting all of your neighbors. It was it was a part of New York City I didn't know exist. It's a part of New York City I'm proud to be to be living in. And, and so it was a sort of a very natural evolution to start working locally and start small and have that grow into something that I've become hugely passionate about and I'm really proud to be part of.
Speaker 5:So you said you were here during superstorm Sandy. How was that? I mean, how did you evacuate, or did you stay?
Speaker 2:We did. We evacuated. We stayed with some friends, and we returned pretty quickly. We we definitely got right to work. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the benefit of living in the Rockaways is that your neighbors are first responders. They're from sanitation, and they're firemen and they're cops. And, you know, they had the wherewithal to get our community back back to what it was pretty quickly. So we did a lot of digging out and a lot of soup kitchens and a lot of feeding our neighbors and being fed by our neighbors, and it was really a coming together of folks. And people from all over New York City,
Speaker 4:from all over came and helped and helped dig out and helped put our community right again. And how bad was it hit where you lived? Like, how just visually, can
Speaker 5:you describe it a little bit?
Speaker 2:Well, the community, it's sort of the space where the bay met the ocean. It was completely underwater. It was flooded basements and 1st Floor, so many of the homes and houses were in uninhabitable. The streets were kind of completely obscured with sand. Was hard to tell what was a street and what was a driveway or a sidewalk or a backyard.
Speaker 2:The boardwalk was completely destroyed and kind of floated throughout the community. It was it was incredible.
Speaker 5:And do people still remember this very vividly?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. It was a formative moment in everybody's lives, and I think we've referred to it in in relationship to many things as either before Sandy or after Sandy. It is I, you know, I can't say it was a turning point for the community because the community, I think, has had you know, natural disasters has had floods, but it was definitely a seismic moment, and it reinforced for me how strong this community is.
Speaker 5:And so that also gives you hope that they can muster whatever is needed for the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean I mean, this shoreline is a perfect example, this living shoreline.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It is part of our effort to work with the natural system to not only restore habitat and ecosystem services, but also to protect what is really a frontline community.
Speaker 5:So right now, we're, like, very protected from the wind. Right? We're very fortunate.
Speaker 2:It's pretty warm right here, it feels. Like any other day, we would think this was cold, but now that we have the cover of the trees here on the West Pond, it's it feels okay. So
Speaker 5:this is the pond on that side.
Speaker 2:The West Pond is right over here to our right, and Jamaica Bay is over here to our left.
Speaker 5:Oh, here we have the wind.
Speaker 2:Here's the Yes.
Speaker 5:Here's the wind. Here's the cold. Okay. So and which part is this already where you planted? Or
Speaker 2:We planted over here on the left. On the left. Okay. Yeah. And
Speaker 5:this part here, this vegetation, it's just a normal vegetation?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is the edge the the the freshwater pond. So what you see here, it's frozen clearly, but that is all freshwater.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then over here to the left is the brackish water, the saltwater that is Jamaica Bay. Yes. And this this freshwater is critical for migratory species and resident species. Yes. Many of these birds come here and and need to rest and recover on their migratory path, and having a freshwater access is really critical.
Speaker 5:And where did it break through with the hurricane?
Speaker 2:It broke through right up here.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 2:So the hurricane hit in 2012 and caused the breach.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that meant that the fresh water was lost pretty immediately as it became sort of brackish like the rest of Jamaica Bay. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Hello. Hi. It's very cold.
Speaker 5:It's very brave up here.
Speaker 2:Can I give you a hand warmer? Hang on. Here.
Speaker 4:Have a good walk. Yes.
Speaker 2:Can't believe we're meeting people on the path. That's exciting.
Speaker 5:That's very rare. Very daring. So, yeah, I mean, basically, plants that are not ready for salt salt water, you give them salt water, they're done.
Speaker 2:They're immediate die off. Correct. Yes. So not only did we lose this habitat and the wildlife that was supported by the freshwater, but, you know, it was a real devastation to the community in terms of we lost the trail. And this trail provides access to visitors, to locals.
Speaker 2:It's beloved by locals, and it was really important that it was restored. Yes. It took many years to come up with a restoration solution that the National Park Service felt, you know, met the needs. Yes. And so in 2017, the breach was repaired.
Speaker 2:But by that time, the shoreline had experienced really severe erosion.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And although the path was
Speaker 5:very steep.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. And although the path was, you know, restored Yeah. Habitat erosion, all of that left for a really vulnerable edge.
Speaker 5:This is a breezy spot here.
Speaker 2:Yes. We're here. So here on the left is the is the West Pond, and I would say that honestly, I think this is ecologically one of the most important landscapes in New York City. Wow. It's a place where freshwater meets saltwater, meets wildlife, meets community.
Speaker 2:All of that is converging converging right here in this tiny spot. This tiny, very windy, cold spot.
Speaker 5:It is. It is. I definitely plan on coming back in the So do we have any estimate what the wind chill factor is?
Speaker 2:I think the wind chill right now is negative
Speaker 4:11? 15?
Speaker 6:15? Yeah. That is when I looked
Speaker 5:this morning, it was, like, around eleven. Trying to go about 11. This is very cold.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for tuning in today into part one. Our next episode takes us to Floyd Bennett Field, a former airfield on Jamaica Bay, where we will meet with Terry Carter, the executive director at Jamaica Bay Rockaway Parks Conservancy, as well as with Elizabeth. Many thanks to Frankham for the music. Until next time, ciao and bye bye.