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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
TSIB 3-10 Politics
[00:00:00]
Dinine Sig: Hi, friends. I'm Deneen. I'm the host of this show, The Space In Between. I'm a mom, I'm an attorney, I'm an author, and I'm also a widow. We're gonna get into some really important stuff
Devon Wellington : today, and I'm really grateful that you're here and you're gonna be sitting with us on The Space In Between.
Dinine Sig: Hi, guys.
Welcome to The Space in Between. Today, we are in Broad Ripple. Shout out Anthony in engine room recording. Um, today's show is gonna be a little bit different. With Election Day approaching, I wanted to have a conversation about how we make informed decisions about the people who represent us and the issues that affect our communities.
I'm thinking of this as a voter's guide. Although not necessarily a printed guide, I want this episode to be a resource for anyone who has looked at a ballot and wondered what a particular office [00:01:00] does, what a candidate actually has the power to accomplish, and, o- I'm sorry, or what a public question would change in your personal life.
The goal isn't to tell anyone how to vote. It is to make choices in front of us easier to understand and to encourage all of us to ask better questions. We'll talk about candidates locally. This is mostly for Indiana guys, so I'm sorry to my national crew if you wanna keep scrolling, but maybe give it a listen.
Maybe you'll learn something. So in Indiana, we have the Secretary of State race, we have two proposed amendments to our state constitution, and several important questions affecting Indianapolis Public Schools. That is part of the reason that we're here today. I also want to explore something that matters to me beyond this election.
How can we have more thoughtful conversations with people who see things differently? We [00:02:00] don't have to agree on everything to care about our communities, obviously, or to want our government to work. So let's start with Chris Hartig. Chris Hartig is a Hoosier. Yes. Hi. Hi, Kris. Hi. Welcome to the engine room.
Chris Hartig: Thanks for having me.
Dinine Sig: Thanks for being here. Chris Hartig is a Hoosier native who grew up in Broad Ripple right here.
Chris Hartig: Yes.
Dinine Sig: Okay. That's right. You mentioned a deli.
Chris Hartig: Yes, Fox's Deli was, was down there. We used to... I'm telling on myself here. Okay. Uh, we used to skip class and go to breakfast there.
Dinine Sig: Okay. So, um, Kris is a Hoosier native who grew up right here and went to skip class sometimes-
but we won't focus on that too much.
Chris Hartig: Before the internet.
Dinine Sig: And was, and was educated through the Indianapolis Public Schools. He teaches emotional intelligence and value-based leadership at Western Governors University, and was the 2024 Democratic candidate for Indiana State Representative in District 29.
Kris is interested in the energy Hoosiers have around balance, local control, and common sense. [00:03:00] He has also reflected on finding purpose after personal loss, and on the importance of seeing people from different political parties as neighbors I can attest to that 'cause I've been on some posts with you, and you have an amazing sense of calm and collectedness when sometimes- Mm-hmm
I tend to get angry. Chris, you teach emotional intelligence and values-based leadership. What have you learned about how people can disagree with one another and still work towards something meaningful?
Chris Hartig: I think the important thing is, is to not allow the narratives to dehumanize each other And we've, we've had so, so much divisiveness right now, and, you know, so you, you mentioned social media.
It, it allows us to distance ourself from the people, and then yet sometimes our algorithm just feeds into our confirmation bias. And, you know, they're no longer our neighbor, our friend, you know, not the [00:04:00] person who we see outside on the front porch walking by or catch 'em at the grocery store. And, and that's really...
I've had, like a, a moment, uh, it, it's, it's kinda hard to explain, with, with some of the current, uh, elected officials in, in our town and, and having a conversation, and it, it always breaks down to, hey, we want the same things. We want strong schools for our kids.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Chris Hartig: Um, we want safe neighborhoods. We want to protect the things, um, that, that make it a great neighborhood.
Dinine Sig: It's about the way we go about it,
Chris Hartig: right? Right. And so, and, and it's like, okay, yeah, you, you're right. It's like, hey, it's difficult to have these conversation, and some, some people will never be our friends, and that's, but that's okay. But we have to keep the communication lines open, and that's basically it is it, the education's gonna start with a conversation.
Dinine Sig: So I know that you mentioned that you had a conversation, and you put that in your pre-interview. It was something that kind of, I think, was a [00:05:00] little bit of an epiphany. Mm-hmm. What did that conversation teach you about how... Well, I know you're gonna say you both wanted the same things, right? But what did it teach you, and what gets in the way of our recognizing common ground more often?
Chris Hartig: Oh, uh, it, it was... And, and I, I won't name their name 'cause they- That's okay ... he probably won't own it.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Chris Hartig: But it, it was, you know, just ran into one of our city officials and, and had a conversation. And what the focus was was local. On, on the national level, we start putting these DNR labels, and then all of a sudden, you know, we can get off at tangents, talk about furry pilots and-
you know, and, and it's like, no, the, you know, let's, let's have a human conversation. And, and on the local level, we, we do want all the same things. And so that... A- and it really hit, we were talking about amenities and, you know, things that we love about, about our hometown. And we both [00:06:00] almost instantaneously together, at the same time, simultaneously stated, we all want the same things.
Dinine Sig: Right. Right.
Chris Hartig: Um, and, and so I think that's where we have to begin is, you know, the divisiveness we can't control on the national level where that's going, um, you know, and how it filters down to the state level. But on the local level- One person at a time, we, we can find that connection again.
Dinine Sig: Thank you, Chris.
Um, so you shared in your intake form about losing a child and the experience- Mm-hmm ... of finding purpose afterward, and that helped shape your path into politics. If you're comfortable talking about it, how did that experience change the way you think about purpose, service, and the way we treat other people?
Chris Hartig: Um, yeah, that... And I tell you, personal loss, and, and most of us have had, had some, some form of personal loss. It, it, it does change you because you, you lose a part of yourself. [00:07:00] Um, losing a child, um, w- was probably The most difficult thing I can imagine. Um, and, and you can't really put it into words, but you can almost, you can almost see someone else who has, has dealt with a lot of loss because, um, you, you do find a different focus.
It may be s- may be, um, you, you lose, you lose part of yourself, but you also lose that ability to really dwell on the little things. Um, they no longer matter. Um, and so you're able to have clarity with the big picture and what's important. And, and I guess that's the only, only gift from that, is you, you gain new perspective, and you become softer but stronger maybe.
Yeah. Um, and, and so- Yeah ... you, you f- you know, the purpose, uh, you know, and how it led me to politics is the strangest thing is just, like, what is the most broken thing possible? And how do you, how do you [00:08:00] fix it? And, and so, you know, that I, you know, jump- jumped into, you know, a race, race in Noblesville where we just need a path.
We need to show people there is a choice. Um, may not win, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Dinine Sig: You, you ran- I ran ... you ran. You, you did
Chris Hartig: it. Yeah. And that's-
Dinine Sig: You
Chris Hartig: did it ... we have to... And, and it's kinda like, okay, you have to blaze the trail first to show it's possible.
Dinine Sig: Yeah.
Chris Hartig: And then, you know, whether it's me or, you know, the next person, um, it's we're, we're getting to...
Y- you know, a win isn't always, you know, some- sometimes it takes some steps.
Dinine Sig: So I appreciate you- Mm ... sharing that, and I think we're all sort of benefiting from your loss in that sense that now, and I me- I don't mean that- ... to sound obnoxious. I hope it doesn't. Um, having not lost a child, but lost my brother and my husband, I think it sort of pushed me to start the show in a sense that I wanted to be a voice for people that were struggling, [00:09:00] and I think that's similar.
You lost someone so important, so irreplaceable, and you said, "Let me find the most broken." Okay. I'm gonna take the most irreplaceable loss- Mm-hmm ... and I'm gonna find the most... It's almost like it doesn't correlate- Yeah ... but it does. Do you know what I mean? Like, you took that and were like, "Let me give myself to my community," and I think that we're all better for it, and I thank you.
And I know you're gonna run again, but I just wanna say thank you for that.
Chris Hartig: Great.
Dinine Sig: Well, thank you. Okay. So, um, you mentioned balance, Kris- Mm-hmm ... local control, common sense as themes you wanna discuss. What do those mean to you in practical terms, particularly when it comes to Indiana government and decisions affecting our local communities?
Chris Hartig: Well, it... the thing I know about Hoosiers, um, is we always find balance. And, and right now, obviously, we're, we're out of balance- Yeah ... [00:10:00] um, you know, quite, quite a bit. And-
Dinine Sig: I'd say.
Chris Hartig: Yeah. And, um, and, and it seems like the national agenda has taken over the state, and so our, our s- state government is no longer representing the local Hoosiers.
And, um, I'll, I'll tell you another thing about Hoosiers also, we don't like being told what to do. Uh, and so this, this idea that, um, our state wants to take away public hearings, um The way our city council can make decisions on, on how our communities develop is not something that we want. And so each, each community...
I, I grew up here in Broad Ripple. I'll tell you, that's unique from a lot of different neighborhoods. I've, I've lived in Noblesville now for the past 21 years. And, you know, Hamilton [00:11:00] County and each city within Hamilton County is different. So we need local voices as opposed to the state telling us, "Hey, here's a one size fits all" that's actually falling towards the national agenda, which is not what we want.
That- And again, going back to we, we just want great schools for our kids, great neighborhoods, safe neighborhoods, and, and amenities that, um, our families can enjoy.
Dinine Sig: And that leads me right into the next question. One of the challenges for voters is understanding what a candidate can actually do once elected.
How can we distinguish between campaign promises, a candidate's personal priorities, and the powers and responsibilities of the office?
Chris Hartig: Um-
Dinine Sig: And that's my- that's me answering, by the way, Jeopardy!-style. Yeah. Why a voter's guide?
Chris Hartig: Understood.
Dinine Sig: Why are we here today?
Chris Hartig: Um, well, I think one thing with the voter's guides, but, um, going, going back a little, another thing that you, you know, what, what is the [00:12:00] promise?
Um, right now, and, and Devin will, will probably attest to this quite a bit, uh, the Democrats, like, uh, in our county, uh, about 47%, but we have zero voice.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Chris Hartig: Uh, and, and so we can't, you know, as the, as the minority and, and them having the super majority, they can push through bills, decide what goes through committee without even needing- Feedback
to have- Yeah ... Yeah, to not even needing the voice from, from the other parties. So that's another way you get extremism and not representing, um, you know, ev- everybody. It, it needs to represent everyone. And so we can't, you know, as far as promises, I can't say, "Hey," as the minority coming in, we, we can't make any decisions, you know, and, and make a huge impact.
But we can, we can bring a voice, we can bring extra [00:13:00] accountability to saying, "Hey, this isn't fair." And we've, we've seen so many things, like with the, um, the attempted gerrymandering here- You know, that was part of the national agenda for power, but local Hoosiers did not want it. And they spoke up directly to their representatives, and they- And it
Dinine Sig: worked
Chris Hartig: like, it worked.
Dinine Sig: Um- It was amazing for me to see, yeah.
Chris Hartig: Yeah, it, it, it worked until the, you know, billions from the national party came in and said, "Okay, you reasonable people, you're out the door."
Dinine Sig: Right. Now we're gonna get rid of you and fill you with a bunch of-
Chris Hartig: Um ...
Dinine Sig: unreasonable people.
Chris Hartig: So- Yeah ... you know, the, the promise is, hey, um, more voices, more accountability, different ideas.
Um, this one, one-trick pony of Corporate tax cuts and deregulation, um, there, there has to be other ideas Doesn't
Dinine Sig: work. It doesn't work, right?
Chris Hartig: It, it's run its
Dinine Sig: course. So what... How long has there been a super majority in Indiana? Is it 18 years or 14?
Chris Hartig: Uh, well, it started in [00:14:00] 2021. Um-
Dinine Sig: I thought it was earlier than that
Chris Hartig: the super- for the state, State House, um, there was... In 2011, there was a, a redistricting.
Dinine Sig: Uh- Okay, maybe I shouldn't use the word super majority. Okay. May- I'm sorry. I- Okay ... maybe I threw you a curve. I'm sorry.
Chris Hartig: Um, but as far as, like, a statewide representative that's been a Democrat, Joe Donnelly 2012, so we haven't had a statewide Democrat- Maybe
Dinine Sig: that's what I was
Chris Hartig: seeing
s- since 2012. Yeah, so it, whatever it is- Devon, did you want
Dinine Sig: to add something?
Devon Wellington : Well, in terms of, like, having one party in control, it's been since 2012.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Devon Wellington : Yeah.
Dinine Sig: So that's where I think I got- Yeah ... my 18 years. So just quickly, Chris, um, if we're creating a useful voter's guide- Mm-hmm ... and this is, guys, this is your audible voter's guide.
Mm-hmm. You're gonna listen, and we're gonna have so many resources for you in the show notes that we're gonna want you to look them up. Um, but if we're creating a useful voter's guide, what information, and [00:15:00] maybe you can just tick it off- Mm-hmm ... would you want to include?
Chris Hartig: What I believe as far as what should be included on the voter guide, uh, it...
There needs to be certain questions. "Hey, where do you stand on this position?" Um, because the D and the R labels don't really tell the whole story.
Dinine Sig: Certainly not here in this state, I don't think. No. No. And I like that you gave us some specific references to look at and resources. I think it's also, and I think you touched on this, uh, about knowing what questions to ask, and this is the biggest thing I see from you, being willing to listen, and I think that some of us are missing that, and I will count myself, guys, in that some of us.
I am sometimes now no longer willing to listen, and that is something I am working on every day. Devon Wellington is running for state representative after spending years working in education policy and trying to get answers from her own elected [00:16:00] representative. Devon Wellington is a Noblesville small business owner, a mother of two children in local schools, and a candidate for Indiana House District 29.
Her career began in American Sign Language, I find that so interesting, with a focus on making sure people who are often overlooked have access and a seat at the table. She later worked in education policy at the local, state, and federal levels. Including at the US Department of Education. Devin says she hasn't planned to run- she hadn't planned to run for office, but after repeated calls and emails to her own state representative went unanswered, she decided to run herself.
She also wants to talk about the Ring Theory and how it informs her approach to governance. So let's begin. Devin, you described yourself as someone who didn't plan to run for office. What happened that made you decide, and I touched on it, but maybe give us a couple of bullets, that made you decide running for yourself was the right next step?[00:17:00]
Devon Wellington : Yeah, there were a couple of votes that happened that I was watching really closely, and I never expect any one person to be an expert in everything, but I do expect them to listen. And so when I had reached out to my representative about bills I was watching coming through the State House related to education, because that's what I know, I, you know, I said that.
I said, "I just, here's-- I would love to share what I think the outcome will be if these pass long term." And I was repeatedly ignored, and- Wow ... I watched one particular vote come through that was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back, in the sense of, I was like, "Oh, we're really not gonna do what our district wants then."
And that vote was related to partisan school board races. So, in our district, in 2024, on the ballot, there was a school board race, and we had six candidates, and there were three spots. And three of the candidates had decided to self-identify as one party.
Chris Hartig: Oh.
Devon Wellington : And three had chosen [00:18:00] to run an independent ticket, and our independent ticket won.
So when the vote for should we have partisan school boards statewide come up, I thought, "Surely, she won't vote-" The evidence shows, right ... Yes, we have data. We have data, and we don't have to guess what our district wants. And then our representative voted for partisan school boards, and I was like, "Oh, man."
Dinine Sig: That's what Chris was talking about- Right ... the
Devon Wellington : national
Dinine Sig: agenda.
Chris Hartig: Yes. Right.
Devon Wellington : Yes. Yeah,
Chris Hartig: there's, there's national foundations who are like, "Hey, too many liberals got on school boards," so.
Devon Wellington : Oh, right. Mm-hmm. And, and that was one piece of it. The other one is, of course, you know, I'm a mom of two kids. Um, they're still in elementary school.
They're young. And, and as we were talking at dinner one night about, you know, "Hey, Mom's thinking about this thing, and here's what the job would be, and what do you guys think?" And my son said, "Well, Mom, you kind of already do that job." And on a policy level, working with states, I do kind of do that job.
Dinine Sig: I love that.
Devon Wellington : Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I love that. Um, so yeah, you just led me to my next question. You're a parent. Yeah. You just talked about your [00:19:00] kids. A small business owner. What's your business, by the way?
Devon Wellington : So, I have an e-commerce business. It's actually kind of on hiatus because of tariffs. Okay. So, I understand how policy can impact a local business like mine, but we sell, you know, holiday greenery that's, um, highly realistic looking and, um- Oh
you know, just like Christmas garlands and wreaths and things
Dinine Sig: like
Devon Wellington : that. Okay. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: And you're also someone with experienced, it sounds like deep experience, in education- Mm ... policy. How do those different parts of your life shape the issues, and I think you answered this already, that you pay attention to, or the way you approach problems?
Devon Wellington : I'm the kind of person who really loves, uh, i- in terms of when I'm a p- have a policy problem, I really need to understand how we got here first. And then think about, and then what, right? So I was raised by a mother who always asked, "What? So what? Now what?" And so that's kind of how- I love that ... I approach every problem.
And so I think the now what is often missing in policy. We don't- we say, "Hey, we passed a law," and then no one thinks [00:20:00] really deeply, um, it, it seems, about implementation, and how are you going to get that implemented? How are you gon- going to determine if it's effective or not, right? How do you make sure that the law that was passed is doing what it's supposed to do, how it's supposed to do it?
Like, we don't have those safeties really built in to policy, and that's what I do now professionally, is I work with different states who are given bad policy by their legislatures, and they're trying to figure out what to do with it. And so I see the gaps in implementation and, and the gaps in thoughtfulness about, yeah, maybe we can say we did this thing and it'll make our national party happy, but, but now what?
Dinine Sig: Now what? Okay. Yeah. So this isn't flowing from that, but it goes back to what you said before. When you tried to reach your own state representative and you didn't get a response- Mm ... um, and that sort of propelled you into this with- along with a cute conversation with your kids- Yeah. ... I think. Um, what should constituents reasonably expect when they contact an elected [00:21:00] official, even when the representative disagrees with them?
Devon Wellington : Yeah, I tell people all the time, like, "Listen, I'm probably not gonna make you happy with every vote, but I also won't be making the same group of people happy with every vote either," right? Like, if you live in a district that is 47, 50% one way or another, your votes should reflect that, right? And I- my goal As a representative would be to have the most civically active district in the state.
And what I mean by that is I expect people to tell me what they think, because while I have things I would love to do personally, at the end of the day, my job is to represent my district, even if maybe I personally disagree with what the majority of my district wants, right? Right. I have to be able to faithfully represent them and answer to them, and I expect them to hold me accountable.
And I think that's what's missing with a lot of our, uh, public officials, is that they-
Dinine Sig: You just took that- Yeah ... out of my... I was literally going to say, "That's what's missing." There's seems like there's so [00:22:00] little accountability just across the board in politics.
Devon Wellington : Right.
Dinine Sig: All of a sudden we have it. And I
Devon Wellington : think if you take the votes, you take the accountability that comes with those votes.
Dinine Sig: So, um, you specifically mentioned ring theory-
Devon Wellington : Yeah ...
Dinine Sig: in your intake form and said you'd like to discuss how it applies to your theory of governance. Can you explain ring theory- Yeah ... as you understand it, and how it will shape your approach to governing?
Devon Wellington : Yeah, so-
Dinine Sig: Or how it does shape.
Devon Wellington : Yeah, so my dad, my dad got sick about a decade ago, and, um, he had a really rare brain tumor.
He was not supposed to live. Spoiler alert, he did. We're very grateful. Um, but- Right ... in the process, he kept getting phone calls from people, and, and anyone who's experienced any kind of loss or grief has probably had this experience where someone calls you well-meaning, but you end up feeling worse after that call.
Dinine Sig: Yes.
Devon Wellington : Right? And, and- Trusty.
Dinine Sig: Yes.
Chris Hartig: W- yeah, because you try to... Sometimes there's just no words, and there's, there's gonna be uncomfortable space, [00:23:00] and people try to fill that in.
Devon Wellington : Right. And sometimes you find people saying things to maybe make themselves feel better, and then the person grieving has to, you know, then they're trying to comfort-
Dinine Sig: Right
Devon Wellington : you know. And, and so my dad was getting a lot of these phone calls that were not helping him as he was going into surgery. And he actually, my dad found this thing called ring theory, which was developed by a psychologist who works with terminally ill patients, and the idea of ring theory is that whoever's in crisis is in the center ring, and if you can picture concentric rings of them radion- radiating out from the center.
So my dad's in the middle, and then the next person closest to you, or, or the person in, in crisis is the next ring. So it was my mom, and then it was me and my siblings, and then our spouses or family members, and then, you know, acquaintances, community. So it just sort of radiates out the farther away from the person in crisis.
And ring theory, the idea of it is that the person in the center can grieve or complain or sort of dump however they're feeling out to any ring farther away from them. But for my mom, for example, she can complain to anyone except for my [00:24:00] dad.
Dinine Sig: As each circle gets bigger. Mm-hmm,
Devon Wellington : yep. Yep, so we call it dump out, comfort in, in my family.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Devon Wellington : So I can complain to my husband, but to my mom and dad, I only provide comfort.
Dinine Sig: So I get what you're saying. How would that... Does that relate to politics?
Devon Wellington : To me, it does, because as I've been watching how our state has been legislating, we are doing the opposite of ring theory. We are comforting out and dumping in.
Dinine Sig: That's such a cool picture. It, it's a horrible picture- It's a,
Devon Wellington : but,
Dinine Sig: and- ... but it's such a cool way to- 'Cause I was like, how does... I'm sitting here while you're talking going, "How does it work?" Now I get it.
Devon Wellington : And because of that, we have fewer and fewer rings because more and more people are ending up in crisis, ending up in the middle ring, and that means we have less capacity, less bandwidth as a community, as a state.
Whatever capacity you have in your life, those relationships, you have less capacity to provide comfort to other people because we're all in crisis. Like, heaven forbid you're a kid, you know, on Medicaid going to a rural elementary school with special needs. Like, you got nothing.
Dinine Sig: [00:25:00] Trifecta of-
Devon Wellington : Right ...
Dinine Sig: abuse by the system right
Devon Wellington : now.
Right. Uh, but if you've got a lot of money, you get a helicopter pad or- Right ... a, an SUV or, or, or a contract or tax breaks to the tune of billions of dollars, and it just does not work. The system does not work.
Dinine Sig: That's a fantastic, um... What's the word I'm looking for? It's a fantastic description that I didn't get until you just said it.
So we're... Say it again, we're dumping-
Devon Wellington : We're dump- we're, we're comforting out and dumping in.
Dinine Sig: We're comforting out. So, like, we're comforting the most powerful and the
Devon Wellington : most- The people who need the least amount
Dinine Sig: of comfort are getting it ... right, and the most able-
Devon Wellington : Yes ...
Dinine Sig: who don't need, and then we're dumping out of that-
Devon Wellington : We're dumping in all of the, all of...
We're making everything harder for people who already don't have the resources and don't have the things that they need, and so therefore, they're staying in crisis.
Dinine Sig: And that doesn't help any-
Devon Wellington : Correct ...
Dinine Sig: any, any society. Any system. Yeah, no. No. Okay. Thank you for [00:26:00] explaining that. Um, so when we talk about how this idea translates to public policy, you just did it perfectly, but what different people or groups do you think are most affected by a decision in different ways?
How do you determine who needs, whose needs require the most attention? I think we just hit on someone.
Devon Wellington : Yeah.
Dinine Sig: But how do, how do we, I guess, as a society determine that? I think it's something we could see with our eyes, but is there a, a test you can apply?
Devon Wellington : I think some of that comes down to how you conceptualize need.
Dinine Sig: Need.
Devon Wellington : And, and in the sense of, for example, I, I've worked with, with a lot of, um, policy around s- kids with disabilities, right? And many people approach, you know, special education with this idea of like, oh, we are giving to these students, and there is need. But the things that we learn about educating all kids from learning how to educate our kids with special needs benefits [00:27:00] all of our students, right?
A- and so those practices are highly beneficial. Not, not only that, but also, like, you know, they're, the... A statistic says something like 50% of Fortune 500 CEOs are neurodivergent, right? And so we have to... I think if we can kinda flip the script on what is good or bad or needful or not needful, like, if we can understand that we're all connected in a way, and it's not about, um, sort of lack of, I think we can learn a lot from one another in a way that will allow us to determine the best use of our time and resources, if that makes sense.
Dinine Sig: It does, and it leads me right to my next question, which is, what would meaningful inclusion look like in state government? Your early history was about making sure everybody had a seat. What does meaningful inclusion look like beyond simply saying everyone has a voice? 'Cause that's what we say now.
Devon Wellington : Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: And we know by the way we live that that is not true.
Devon Wellington : Mm-hmm. Well, I think, you know, meaningful inclusion would be ensuring that we have [00:28:00] balance in our state government. That would be one way. Another way I think we could actually have meaningful inclusion is if people were accountable to their constituents and involved them in those conversations.
You know, I think we're, and I don't think this is necessarily unique to my community, but there's experts within each community, people who have understanding of that lived experience, and including them in the conversation to guide that as the expert in that I think is really powerful. I think also if we have, you know, if we don't have a super majority and we have the need for real discussion and real debate about policy, it allows for room to include people.
Right now, we don't have to include anyone we don't want to.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Devon Wellington : And so if we can, you know, have more balance in the State House, I think it will naturally lead to more inclusion as well.
Dinine Sig: Um, so what education problems can state legislators realistically address, and [00:29:00] which decisions should be left to local school leaders, educators, and families?
Devon Wellington : I think the biggest thing that a state legislature needs to address is education funding.
Dinine Sig: I agree.
Devon Wellington : And how that plays into the larger picture of what do we think the role of government is because right now, what we think the role of government is is reflected in our tax system. So if you have states that have about the same number of kids as Indiana and about the same general population, and Indiana is saying that we spend 46% of our gener- of our funds on education, but states that are similarly sized who spend more on their pers- per pupil, it's, you know, 20%.
Dinine Sig: Wow.
Devon Wellington : So I think we have to think bigger than just how are we gonna, you know, fully fund public schools. Absolutely, yes, we need to do that, but it's a bigger question. It's how, how are we gonna budget for the state to ensure that we [00:30:00] have the funds that we need to so that we are not dumping in on our families and on these students and on our administrators and on our teachers with mandate upon mandate upon mandate without removing any burden from them, but also doing it in a meaningful way so that we are not coming upon these crises in education that we keep finding ourselves.
We- it does not have to be this way.
Dinine Sig: Yeah. I mean, let's, you know, let's hope that we, uh, see that addressed, right? Yeah. Um, so what are two or three issues you most want voters in District 29 to understand about your candidacy?
Devon Wellington : Yeah, I mean, I think understanding education funding, um, is a big one just because our district is facing a referendum, an operating referendum, and we are getting an outsized amount of national influence in our local school referendum.
Dinine Sig: Crazy, guys.
Devon Wellington : Crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy, and it is having an impact. And so... And I keep going to these [00:31:00] school... You know, our district has been i- incredibly transparent about why we need a referendum, what it's gonna look like for, you know, all eight years of the referendum, 'cause that's how long they can last.
And I see people in these meetings with our, our district leadership saying things like, "Well, why aren't you guys advocating at the state to change it so that we don't have to have referendums?" And our district leadership is saying, "Well, actually, we do do that, but this comes down to the legislature."
Dinine Sig: Which has a super majority.
Devon Wellington : With... Right. Yes. So if, if you're mad about this-
Dinine Sig: Right ...
Devon Wellington : and this is, this is one of the dots I've been trying to connect with pe- or, you know, help people connect, is if you're mad about this, you gotta change who you vote for into the State House, quite frankly. Um, so that's a big one for me.
Understanding, again, like what is, what does good governance look like is a big issue for me. And then, of course, you know, because that, that gets into everything else, all the healthcare- Yeah ... opportunity, affordability, all the things that we want to improve. Um, but then of course, making sure people know they have a voice and can hold me accountable.
Dinine Sig: So [00:32:00] I just wanna circle back to this. Um, someone... You kind of already said this, but I, I like it and I wanna highlight this. If someone agrees with you on one issue but disagrees with you on another, what would you want that voter to understand about you and the way you approach the job?
Devon Wellington : I would want them to expect me to not only listen if they would choose to share their opinion with me, but expect me to ask for their opinion in the first place, take it into accountability in the totality of what the district wants, and expect me to then report back to them why I voted the way I voted every single time.
And that is my commitment to voters, is I will always explain every vote. And I know that that's a tall order, especially when you're in session and things are flying a mile a minute. Like, I get it, but that is the job, and that's what I'm committed to doing. [00:33:00]
Dinine Sig: It sounds like a lot of accountability, and we need to bring that back into any public
Devon Wellington : office.
Right. Because even if you disagree with my vote, I think you should know why I did it, and it's probably because I heard from this many other people who said they wanted it a certain way. So if you don't want me to vote that way, find your people and make sure I know
Dinine Sig: that. Right. Right. I like that. Well, I really appreciate that, Devin.
One thing that comes through in both of these conversations is the importance of knowing what public officials are responsible for and being able to hold them accountable.
Let's turn now to a statewide office that plays a significant role in how Indiana operates its elections, the secretary of state. Many voters recognize the title secretary of state without necessarily knowing the full scope of the job. The office oversees Indiana's elections, maintains state records, and handles business-related responsibilities, among other duties.
[00:34:00] This year, four candidates are listed in the race: independent Greg Ballard, Democrat Beau Bi, Republican Max Engling, and Libertarian Laurie Schillings. I wanna focus on what this office does and how voters should compare the candidates on the responsibilities they would actually take on. So question number one in trying to understand the office, what does a secretary of state actually oversee, and what authority does the office have over elections?
Chris Hartig: As far as the, the elections, there, there's quite a bit which they do have control over. Now, uh, most of our, our elections are run on the local level, um, you know, through, through the county and municipal. But, uh, at- as far as On the state level, I've, I've heard goals of what, um, each of the candidates want.
And, um, there is a lot of reasons that Indiana has very low [00:35:00] turnout. Okay. Um, you know, some of it is, um, you know, our... We don't have extended voting hours similar to other states. Um, you know, there's, uh, I-
Dinine Sig: The burden to vote is
Chris Hartig: higher- Yeah ... in Indiana. There's, you know, y- we've, you know, there's... There were instances last election where you voted in one location during the primary, and then all of a sudden in the general election it was different.
And, uh, it, and it also comes back to the, the super majority where, you know, a, a, a lot of people on both sides feel like, "Hey," uh- "
Dinine Sig: What's the point?" ... "
Chris Hartig: What's the point?"
Dinine Sig: Mm-hmm. Um- See, so we had that in New York where we always, everybody always votes blue. Mm. So after a while people just stop showing up, and then- Mm-hmm
we started to lose the State House because people just assumed, oh, it's all gonna go this way, so that's an interesting thing. And,
Chris Hartig: and so, you know, things like straight ticket voting- Mm-hmm ... that's [00:36:00] decided through, uh... We're, we're one of the few states, and that, that also leads to voter apathy, and, um, not being informed.
Dinine Sig: So when voters look at the four candidates, Chris, I'm gonna stick- Mm ... with you for this one.
Chris Hartig: Okay.
Dinine Sig: What should they examine beyond party affiliation? What experience, priorities, or proposals do you think are relevant to the job? 'Cause I think you were kind of leading into that, but I kind of cut you short.
Chris Hartig: Well, uh, y- between, you know, the, the candidates, um, I, I know Max Engling, he, he's, he's the, um, GOP offering. Um, he w- he was part of Jim Banks' campaign. Um, and he's, uh, he's, he's mentioned things like, um, election integrity. I, I don't know what that means because he's a continuation of what we already have right now.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Chris Hartig: Um, but he wants- I just, yeah ... he wants to also close primaries. And, and I'm seeing, okay... And closing primaries, um, means you have [00:37:00] to-
Dinine Sig: Be a Democrat
Chris Hartig: to vote- Be a Democrat- ... in a Democrat caucus ... and vote in Democrat. And, uh, and I, and I see the, you know, some of the pros of this, but again, it's like, okay, you're taking away voters' rights to make choices.
Uh, and, and so there, um- It's going to decrease voter turnout when we need to be thinking in the opposite terms To
Dinine Sig: increase it
Chris Hartig: And, and I know, um, you know, they, the other candidates, all, all of them have, you know, have stated they want to increase, um, voter turnout and- So what do you think- ... equal representation
Dinine Sig: if you think about, 'cause Boibi is taking the center stage- Mm-hmm ... and Max Engling, I think, are both taking the center stage. You mentioned- Right now ... something in our pre-interview about Greg Ballard, and you felt like you, I think you felt like, um, maybe it would... I don't wanna say what you felt, but do you remember our conversation?
Chris Hartig: Yeah, it's, uh... Well, right now if you look at polling, [00:38:00] realistic polling, um, and, and there's two different ones. Um, Jim Banks' campaign, uh, you know, put out some polling saying Max is running about 38%, uh, Boibi 37, and then, uh, Schilling and Ballard are about six and 5%, and then there's 14% undecided.
Devon Wellington : Okay.
Chris Hartig: Um, and, you know, the Biibi campaign's has Biibi up about 42 to 36%.
So, you know, if you kinda look at across the polls, there's basically two viable, winnable candidates, um, for this race. Now, Ballard's running, I, I think there's a diff- you have to determine what a win looks like for you. Uh, he, he's running, uh, as an off-ramp for Republicans, in, in my opinion. There's, there's a lot of Republicans, old school Republicans.
Bal- I was, I was an Indy resident when Ballard was, was mayor, and we had Pence as governor, and they were so, [00:39:00] you know, it, it was so anti-diversity and, and Ballard's like, "No, Indianapolis is inclusive and, you know, welcoming," and he, he kind of bug- you know. And there's, there's a, you know, example of, you know, a D and an R label aren't, don't necessarily mean the same thing.
Um, and so he is inclusive, um, but he's done some privatizing things also, um, which I don't agree with in, in education in the past, but that's not part of this role. Uh, but he provides a reasonable off-ramp for Republicans, and these are the conversations I'm having. They're like, with a lot of Republicans, they're n- not happy with MAGA.
They, they don't, you know, it, it's obviously, you know, ev- everything's more expensive, you know, every single promise is, you know, c- lower cost day one. We're, we're-
Dinine Sig: Yes, an insurrection and a, and a pedophile-
Chris Hartig: You-
Dinine Sig: Were not the, were not the breaking- There
Chris Hartig: was-
Dinine Sig: It, it was actually gas prices.
Chris Hartig: Or the... Yeah, that was the deal breaker.
Yes. Okay, there [00:40:00] you go. Um, so by d- by choosing Ballard, you know, they, they can disagree with, with the current agenda, national agenda, but there's people who are not ready to be our friends yet.
Dinine Sig: Right.
Chris Hartig: And that's, and that's okay. We need- That's an
Dinine Sig: off-ramp for them.
Chris Hartig: That's an... Yes. So we will still keep those conversations open, but people, some people are not gonna like us or they're not ready.
So, you know, having Ballard on there is just more choices, more opportunity, more representation. Um, but a win for him is, okay, at 2%, he can give access creating a new party for the next four years. Or if he gets 10%, uh, then there's full-time access, and then there's an actual Lincoln party established. So, you know, actually establishing a party, a whole party's easier than winning a statewide race, uh, as an independent, because we have that straight ticket voting again, where it, it's, um...
And that, that kinda leads back to that 14%, [00:41:00] uh, that undecided. Um, in previous races, the undecided, they always end up coming home Republican. So it's- So when they're
Dinine Sig: That was me
Chris Hartig: just- That face. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: Um-
Chris Hartig: The... So it, it, it's coming down to there's two really viable candidates for this, and those Democrats who may say, "Hey- buys a little plane to the middle, um, and, and they're like, "Hey, you know, Ballard's a viable option."
Um, not... For this race, the alternative of what we're trying to avoid- Okay ... is, is where, really where, you know, I want to focus here is like, okay, there's no such thing as a perfect candidate, but let's take a win. Let's get a statewide race a victory-
Dinine Sig: Yeah ...
Chris Hartig: as opposed to huge losses. And th- and that's how we got to this point.
Dinine Sig: Where should voters go to compare the candidates' [00:42:00] actual positions rather than relying on my... Well, I hope my podcast is presenting both, but I guess I'm not completely. But rather than relying on only campaign advertisements or social media.
Devon Wellington : I think, you know, it's great that you bring this up because more and more people are relying on social media.
Uh, you know, as a, as a candidate, one of the things that we have to figure out is how do we reach voters, and we have to meet them where they are, and a lot of people are on social media, right? And especially, like, you know, Millennials, they don't want you to knock on their door. They also don't want you to spam call them.
They also don't want you to text them. So where do you meet them? Where do you find them? And a lot of it is social media, so that's where a lot of people go. And, um, you know, influencers are having an outsized impact in politics as well. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, there are voter guides,
Dinine Sig: which- Which we will have- Yes
on the bottom- Yeah ... of the show notes- Which are great resources ... guys, so check that. Um, there's even a sample ballot, right? Yeah. For where everybody lives. If you go on, I think it's Indy...
Chris Hartig: Yeah. Yeah, IN.gov. Uh, Vote 111, you can [00:43:00] also, uh, vote 411, you can also choose your state- Mm-hmm ... and enter in your specific address.
Dinine Sig: Okay. Yeah. Those are for those of you who are not Hoosiers. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the next two questions on the ballot are different from choosing a candidate. These questions ask Hoosiers to consider proposed changes to our state constitution. Let's break that down, what each one would do. Public question number one, bail and pretrial release.
The first proposed amendment concerns bail. Under the current Indiana Constitution, bail may be denied under specified circumstances for someone charged with murder or treason when the evidence is strong. The proposed amendment would expand the circumstances in which bail could be denied for other offenses.
It would require that the evidence meet the constitutional standard and that the state prove by clear and convincing evidence that no release conditions could reasonably protect the safety of another person. So what we're [00:44:00] talking about here, guys, is expanding the amount of people that will be denied bail, and I don't...
As a lawyer, I have a lot to say about that, but I just wanna put that... That's the question that, um, we are considering to- as a change to the Constitution. So I'm gonna shoot off a bunch of questions. Whoever has the answer. What would this amendment change from the current constitutional standard mean?
Chris Hartig: I, I think it means judges have a little bit more decision-making-
Dinine Sig: Right
Chris Hartig: over, over who's guilty, who's
Dinine Sig: not
Chris Hartig: guilty.
Dinine Sig: And not a, not a jury, right? Not necessarily- Mm-hmm ... going to a jury because if you're denying bail, that person for the next year could sit... You could truly affect their life, their income, their family structure in a different way than just the, the question of guilt or innocence.
Chris Hartig: Right. They could lose their job in- Right ... in the meantime, waiting, waiting for trial. Um, and, and so it... I see inconsistency there. [00:45:00] Um, how do we know these judges, what are they gonna determine what's a threat? What, what's the threshold? And, you know, so there could be people who, um- Mm ... under pressure will enter a, a guilty plea potentially because they, they don't want to sit in jail over, you know, wait- awaiting trial.
Dinine Sig: Right, which is thwarting the whole system upon which our justice system is built.
Chris Hartig: Presumed- So- Yeah,
Dinine Sig: presumed guilty. Presumed innocent.
Chris Hartig: Yeah.
Dinine Sig: I know, right now it feels like presumed guilty, but yeah, it's presumed innocent. Um, what concerns- might people have about pretrial detention? I think we just listed one of them.
Mm-hmm. It's thwarting the, the system. And the principle that someone charged with a crime has not even yet been convicted, but might... Again, I think we answered that one, but Devin, do you have anything to add?
Devon Wellington : Of course, I'm sure every judge wants to say that they are operating within the law and without bias, but people have biases, and I worry [00:46:00] that passing this amendment would make it easier for bias to come through, even if maybe unintended.
Dinine Sig: Absolutely. I think that's a real concern. Mm-hmm. So what should voters know, guys, if they wanna know, "If I vote yes to this and if I vote no to this, what am I preserving or what am I changing?" I think I said it, but maybe you wanna say it again.
Chris Hartig: So if you vote yes for this, you're giving the judge more power to state, you know, this is a, a threat
Dinine Sig: to
Chris Hartig: s- To safety.
Mm-hmm ... to safety, and locking this person up outside of, uh... I think the threshold right now- Of conviction, right ... is, yeah, is potential murder or treason. Treason,
Dinine Sig: yeah.
Chris Hartig: Uh, so we don't know what each judge perception of that. This is not clear language, and that's, that's my biggest problem, is, um, is this going to apply to immigration?
Dinine Sig: Absolutely. So I think when we go to if you're a voter and you're listening, what does a no vote mean? What would you be [00:47:00] preserving? I think... I'm just gonna jump in. I think you're preserving the judicial system as we all know it to have been prior to maybe 2016. Um, and you're preserving the judicial system that our Founding Fathers truly wanted to see implemented, which was innocent until proven guilty, and not carrying the burden of guilt by being in jail for a year outside of the scope of a truly threatening crime, like murder or treason.
So for me, I think I'm gonna vote no on that.
Chris Hartig: And, and I think the data r- truly shows that when people are on bail, they're not committing crimes.
Dinine Sig: Right. I didn't know that.
Chris Hartig: And so give them- So that's- Give them their day in court.
Dinine Sig: Okay. I like that. Yeah, I didn't know that. So public question number two: Where city and town court judges may live.
The second amendment concerns residency requirements for city and town court judges. Currently, judges [00:48:00] must reside in a city or town where they preside. So guys, what that means is a judge has to live in the city or town where they're ruling from the bench, and it's good in a way that- And I think it's designed in a way that the judge sort of has to answer in some way or another to the community.
The proposed amendment would allow a judge to reside in a county where the court is located or in the closest bordering Indiana county, meaning they don't have to be in the city or town where they're sitting on the bench. They can be in the county. And I don't know my Indiana geography, but I know some counties can get pretty far and wide.
And so you could have potentially a rural judge sitting in a more populous part of town. So some quick questions here. Why do supporters believe changing the residency requirements is worthwhile?
Devon Wellington : I'm sure you know that there's a, there's a [00:49:00] lawyer shortage, right? We have, we have a shortage of l- of litigators or people who can represent people, and I think the original goal of this was to maybe lessen that, alleviate that a little bit.
Dinine Sig: So why do opponents of this, what are they fearing?
Chris Hartig: I, I think the fear is just the way we've talked about the super majority. There is a potential for the party in power to stack the courts. Mm-hmm. Um, that- that's, you know, let's... You know, in certain areas, it, it could be, um, you know, leaning one, one party a certain way.
Um, you can bring in an outside judge, and a- again, you know, they don't have to be part of the community. They don't have to face, you know, face their- Their,
Dinine Sig: their community- ... fears and anger ... every day.
Chris Hartig: Right.
Dinine Sig: So when you, when we think about, um, guys who are listening, what would a yes vote change? A yes vote to this would change the fact that if one day [00:50:00] you or your child or your spouse or your friend is before a judge, that judge could get in their car after ruling on your beloved person, whoever was in front of that judge, and drive 100 miles maybe or 60 miles away.
And what would a no vote mean? It means that won't happen. Am I right on that, guys?
Devon Wellington : That's my understanding, yeah. Yeah, that's-
Dinine Sig: Okay. So these are statewide questions. For voters in Indianapolis, there are also important decisions concerning the IPS school board, the structure of education governance in the city, and a proposed operating property tax referendum.
These are related issues, but they are definitely not the same question. I want to be transparent here about my own perspective before we get into this. I have serious concerns about the expansion of charter schools and the way public education dollars are distributed. I believe voters need to understand the [00:51:00] financial consequences for traditional public schools, how public dollars are allocated, and what accountability looks like across the different types of schools receiving these dollars.
At the same time, I want to separate what is documented in the law and the financial information from what different stakeholders believe the implications will be. These are important decisions, and people should have the information they need to make up their minds. So IPS school board elections question number one: school board races are partisan for the first time in this election.
What changed, and what should voters know about how to evaluate the individual candidates?
Chris Hartig: It's ... I could tell you in, in our, our district in, in Noblesville, there's, there's three candidates running. Um, two of them are, are incumbents. One is outside. They all three happen to be Republican.
Dinine Sig: Ugh.
Chris Hartig: I strongly[00:52:00]
They're good Republicans. Uh, I, I strongly disagree with making school, school board races partisan. It, it all happened, you know, because national, national organizations, foundations could not influence our school board races enough, and they were h- they were hiring reasonable f- electing reasonable people.
And so they made it, our state decided to make it partisan. So the thing that's important is, you know, looking pa- and it, this goes back to the conversation, we all want strong schools. So, um, you know, I, you know, there's two, two Republican candidates I publicly endorsed a- as a Democrat because they're part of a great team and bring different voices.
Devon Wellington : So- Well, and I think for IPS specifically- Yeah ... um, you might see a lot of candidates with a D by their name, but how they conceptualize public education is different. Mm-hmm. And who they're backed by is [00:53:00] different. And that's up and down the ticket, especially in Indianapolis.
Dinine Sig: Yes,
Devon Wellington : I've noticed. And so it, it is, you know, a, it becomes even more important that people research those candidates.
Yes.
Dinine Sig: There's- So we're going to briefly touch on the IPS. Um, I just want to say about the other, straight ticket voting does no longer apply- Mm-hmm ... to school board candidates. Mm-hmm. So it's important for those of you listening and for us at this table to review each school board contest and make an individual choice.
Um, I want to encourage you at this time, guys, to go to your sample ballots and really inform yourself about who's running for what in your district with your school. I want to get to IPS now because it's, I think it's the biggest district in our state. So Indiana's 2026 legislation created the Indianapolis Public Education Corporation, or IPEC, a nine-member body appointed by the mayor.
[00:54:00] Its responsibilities include several functions previously managed by the elected IPS board and cover aspects of the public education system within the IPS boundaries. This is all about Indianapolis, guys. There is a separate yes or no retention question, meaning do we want to keep con- the current executive director of IPEC, I don't know if I'm saying this right, Dr.
Caruga- Karega Roush? Voters should understand the purpose of that question rather than confusing it with school board elections or the operating referendum. So we're, we're a little tight, but I wanna try to do this as quickly as we can. What did the new law change about education governance in Indianapolis, and why was the Indianapolis Public Education Corporation created?
Devon Wellington : You want the real reason or what they said?
Dinine Sig: Yeah, gi- Give me the real reason.
Devon Wellington : The real reason is because of they want charter school expansion. Mm-hmm. That's the real reason.
Chris Hartig: It's-
Dinine Sig: [00:55:00] Ex- I believe it, too. So let's go to the next one, Chris. Which responsibilities remain with the elected IPS board if we know... Do anybody know?
Or which now sit with IPEC? How are those responsibilities and decisions held accountable to the public? Right.
Chris Hartig: And that's, that's the que- local accountability. That's, that is the question of, of, of this. So when, you know, the traditional school boards, they're still elected by the voters. This, this, uh, you know, IPEC-
Dinine Sig: IPEC
Chris Hartig: IPEC board, uh, you know, is through, you know, the, the governor, through, you know, th- I believe three of them are experts. And, and so-
Devon Wellington : But experts for what and according to
Chris Hartig: who? Yeah. And, and so who- And so let's say they fail, because I, I'll, I'll tell you since tw- uh, 2001, one out of three charter schools have failed.
And so how are they going to be accountable? Well, not to the voters.
Dinine Sig: Tell me about Arizona, if you can, [00:56:00] quickly, because you and I had a fascinating discussion, and the stats that you quoted to me about what happened when Arizona went full almost, I don't want to say full charter, but-
Chris Hartig: Well, well they, they went full vouchers, and that's, that's just another funneling away from, um, public schools.
And
Dinine Sig: I- Diverting funds, your tax dollars- Yeah, right ... away from public schools.
Chris Hartig: And so, you know, it, we're sitting here talking about referendums and schools are, you know, the opponents are saying, "Well, they need to tighten their budgets," but they're, they're being accountable for this. Uh, however, the rules keep changing and there's money keep c- you know, going away from, from this, so they're making it more difficult on them.
And so and Arizona is a, is a case study about what's happening in Indiana. We just went 100% full voucher also. Uh, already 70% of students, uh, who receive vouchers never had their kids in public schools already. So
Dinine Sig: we're- That's a crazy statistic, guys ...
Chris Hartig: and so this is... You know, school choice and vouchers are not the same [00:57:00] thing.
This is subsidizing the people who already had the funds and ability to send their kids to private schools. And so what will happen is the other 90%, uh, are, are in public schools, and that's who the public serving, um, they're losing funds. And they, you know, our public schools take everyone, and so they don't have the same resources anymore to, to support them a- as, you know, Devin, Devin Will said earlier.
Dinine Sig: So let me jump to what- Yeah ... I think might be a funding question, a bigger- Mm-hmm ... education funding question. I think it's important to ask of the candidates for IPS this question: When public education dollars are limited, how should Indiana balance parental choice, the financial realities of the traditional public school districts, and accountability for all schools receiving public money?
'Cause whether you're a charter or whether you're a private school, I don't think those schools report to the public. They just take public dollars without [00:58:00] reporting. So what voter, what information should voters examine to understand the effect on students, teachers, their community, and the long-term finances of the district when it comes to voting for someone who's running to be on the IPS on any of those, um, individual district boards?
Devon Wellington : In Indianapolis specifically, this, this charter fight has been going on... It, it started 40, 50 years ago, right? Like, we have gotten to this point and It's important for people to understand that because we have a system in which our public schools have been defunded to the point, in the name of s- things like innovation or equity, that really aren't those things.
They're not serving that purpose to begin with. And so a- as you're evaluating, you know, your, your school board candidates, I would be asking them who they plan to hold accountable- Mm-hmm ... and how.
Chris Hartig: Yeah,
Devon Wellington : that's,
Chris Hartig: that's a great point, is, you know, there, there's a partnership established. Uh, and there, there's a f- a fine line between, hey, do we want to extend, expand it and go further, uh, or, um, [00:59:00] you know, keep public school funds in public schools.
And, and so I, I did want to share that if, if you look at IPS Parent Council, um, the Indianapolis Education Association, they endorsed a certain slate of candidates because, um, yeah, just because there's a D and an R in front of their names. Um, there are several candidates in each district who support more accountability, and there's, there's some count, uh, candidates who want to expand that partnership, including more, more funding to charter schools.
And so, um, you know, if you-
Dinine Sig: If you're someone who cares about where your tax- Yeah, right Mm-hmm ... tax dollars are going, and if you believe in, if you went to a public school and you believe that you were lucky to have it there, how should you vote?
Chris Hartig: Mm-hmm.
Dinine Sig: You should vote for someone not just based on a D, R or I.
Mm-hmm. You should look at what that person... Right?
Chris Hartig: Great, great point. Yeah. Not, not every candidate opposes charter schools, [01:00:00] and some can be partners filling extra needs. However, uh, it- we're talking about draining resources from traditional schools.
Dinine Sig: So my final take on that, I don't know if you guys agree with this, is private choice, absolutely.
Mm-hmm. You get to choose at times. My kids have gone to public and they've gone to private schools. Private choice, but public funding, no. Uh, in, in my opinion, the answer is no. So when you look at a candidate, guys, you have to kind of see if anyone there, does it look like they want to help the public schools that are suffering through these huge cuts?
More cuts are coming next year, from what I understand. I thought I read a figure that said 24 million. I'm not sure- Hmm ... if that's correct. Um- Yes ... so you should look at people that are running in your districts, and not just look- And
Devon Wellington : who supports them.
Dinine Sig: Right. Right, and not just look at the D- Mm-hmm ... R or the, the I.
Mm-hmm. Okay. So, um- I wanna say [01:01:00] something. Um, you don't have to agree with every candidate or even with your neighbors, but you have to take time, I hope you'll take time, to understand the decisions in front of you. The important thing is to know what you're voting on, and like Devin just brought up, who is supporting that person?
Because you can bet that the, the group that's supporting that person is looking for something back once they get into office. I will put several voter resources in the show notes. Start with your own sample ballot. Look at the exact wording of the public questions. Consult more than one reliable source.
Chris recommended vote411.org and WFYI Devin, I think you kind of seconded those recommendations. Mm-hmm. We have about a list of six that I think are gonna be in the show notes. Marion County voters specifically can also use IndyVotes to find their sample ballot. Do you guys have anything last minute to add?
Chris Hartig: Well, um, with speaking to the IPS referendum, [01:02:00] specifically the operating referendum- Okay ... um, if this doesn't pass, even if it does pass, there's an additional 20 million in cuts. You know, initially they, they wanted, you know, 55% rate. Um, IPIC, you know, it approved p- to present 37%. Um-
Dinine Sig: I saw that at 32%, sorry.
Chris Hartig: There's... Yes. Mm-hmm. But a much lower rate. So on top of the 24 million that they've already cut, um, this, this will be catastrophic, and this will be the end goal, um, you know, for, you know, there, there are force- It'll be the
Dinine Sig: final blow,
Chris Hartig: yes ... Right. There are,
Dinine Sig: there
Chris Hartig: are forces who want to privatize education at the expense of our kids.
Dinine Sig: Right. So if you are looking to vote on this and you want a quick what does a no vote mean on this?
Devon Wellington : It means it's, it's not only death by 1,000 cuts- It- ... it's death by bludgeon for IPS, and the state will come over and take over IPS schools. And that's- And that's the goal of the privatization- Mm-hmm ... folks.
Dinine Sig: So they're hoping that more people vote no than yes.
Devon Wellington : They are. And there's... Yeah. Yeah.
Dinine Sig: And what [01:03:00] does a yes vote mean?
Chris Hartig: Yes means there's still cuts. Some. There, there are cuts.
Devon Wellington : Some funding, yeah.
Chris Hartig: Um, and there, there will still be a partnership with charter schools. There still will be choice, but IPS gets to survive.
Dinine Sig: Okay.
Devon Wellington : And at least through another legislative session where hopefully we can walk back some of the, the harm that's been done to IPS. Right. Because what happens to IPS can happen anywhere, and that's what people around the state really need to be aware
Chris Hartig: of. Right. And these, these house bills, A, you have to share.
Mm-hmm. You share your funds. Mm-hmm. Already they're, they're tight on their budget. They have to be accountable. They are, um, they're held to different standards, but they have to share their funds.
Dinine Sig: Thank you, guys. I wanna thank Dr. Chris Hartig. Yeah. And I wanna thank Devin Wellington for being here. I'm going to have De- Devin's campaign website at the bottom, along with a lot of these other, um, resources for you to look at.
And guys, if you're listening to this and you feel like there's someone whose voice is missing from this episode and you're annoyed about it, uh, www.deninesseg.com, reach out to me, and, uh, [01:04:00] maybe we'll have a conversation with that person as well. Thank you both for being here on Broad Ripple tonight.
Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for discussing these really important issues for Hoosiers. And, um, Chris, if you want, I could put your website down there too. I, I don't know if you have one going right now, but we will have... We'll... I will talk with both of them and, and get, um, uh, notes. For the show notes, I will get websites and resources.
Thank you, guys. Thanks for sitting us on The Space In Between.
Devon Wellington : Hi friends. If you enjoy what you're listening to, please follow, rate, and share The Space In Between.