#47 Sarah Kathryn + Chance Ruder - Conservation Connection Podcast

Sarah, Kathryn and Chance Ruder are the husband and wife founders of the Conservation Connection podcast. Chance and Sarah Kathryn record rigorous and curious conversations with people who are saving the planet. Their passion for this planet and the people working to protect it led them to create not only the podcast, but their  501c3 nonprofit organization that creates opportunities for anyone to learn how to care for our planet by bringing engaging and educational programs to them wherever they are. 

On each episode of the Conservation Connection podcast, Sarah Kathryn and Chance record rigorous and curious conversations with the people who are saving the planet; sitting down with today’s leading wildlife scientists, conservationists and changemakers to better understand the natural world around us and what we can do to protect it. Here at SWYL, we couldn’t help seeing the parallels with our own mission and Mark sits down with our guests to talk about their efforts to save what they love.

On today's show, Mark, Sarah Kathryn and Chance talk about getting into the conservation biz, making science juicy, bringing the story to people wherever they are, luminous trees and moving waters and eliminating burnout.

Save What You Love with Mark Titus:⁣

Produced: Emilie Firn

Edited: Patrick Troll⁣

Music: Whiskey Class⁣

Instagram: @savewhatyoulovepodcast

Website: savewhatyoulove.evaswild.com

Support wild salmon at evaswild.com

Creators & Guests

Host

Mark Titus

Mark Titus is the creator of Eva’s Wild and director of the award winning films, The Breach and The Wild. He’s currently working on a third film in his salmon trilogy, The Turn. In early 2021, Mark launched his podcast, Save What You Love, interviewing exceptional people devoting their lives in ways big and small to the protection of things they love. Through his storytelling, Mark Titus carries the message that humanity has an inherent need for wilderness and to fulfill that need we have a calling to protect wild places and wild things.

Guest

Chance Ruder

Co-founder and Chief Science Officer of Conservation Connection. At the age of five, Chance stood in front of a crowd, hoping to inspire others to take action to protect the environment. HIs passion for the planet continued throughout his education and has honed his skills as a scientist and communicator. After meeting Sarah Kathryn while working in the Florida Keys, they started the non-profit Conservation Connection to inspire action on behalf of the environments that they so deeply care about.

Guest

Sarah Kathryn Ruder

Co-founder and CEO of Conservation Connection. From a young age, Sarah Kathryn has held a deep love for marine mammals and after visiting the aquarium to see dolphins with her grandmother, she became obsessed with the ocean. With a degree in psychology from Auburn and an informal education and background in scientific research, she created the Conservation Connection podcast, with her husband Chance. Together, they’re sharing their knowledge of the planet and how to care for it.

What is Save What You Love with Mark Titus?

Wild salmon give their very lives so that life itself can continue. They are the inspiration for each episode asking change-makers in this world what they are doing to save the things they love most. Join filmmaker, Mark Titus as we connect with extraordinary humans saving what they love through radical compassion and meaningful action. Visit evaswild.com for more information.

00:00:00:09 - 00:00:30:11
Mark Titus
Welcome to the Save What You Love podcast. I'm your host, Mark Titus. In this episode, I sit down with Sarah, Kathryn and Chance Ruder hosts and husband and wife founders of the Conservation Connection podcast. Chance and Sarah Kathryn recorded rigorous and curious conversations with people who are saving the planet. Like leading wildlife scientists, conservationists and changemakers, their guests help us better understand the natural world around us and what we can do to protect it.

00:00:30:12 - 00:01:08:08
Mark Titus
Sound familiar? Well, there's a whole lot more to their story. Conservation connection is more than just a podcast. It's also the name of Sarah, Kathryn and Chance's 501 C3 nonprofit organization, creating opportunities for anyone to learn how to care for our planet by bringing engaging and educational programs to them wherever they are. On today's show, we talk about getting into the conservation biz, making science juicy, bringing the story to people wherever they are, luminous trees and moving waters, ameliorating burnout.

00:01:08:10 - 00:01:29:09
Mark Titus
The wonder of small things. Connection for the win. And we read a luscious poem by Mary Oliver, Saint Mary, from her book thirst. It is a beautiful episode today. I hope you find the same amount of wonder in the small things as I did. Onward!

00:01:29:11 - 00:02:05:04
Music
How do you save what you love?
When the world is burning down?
How do you save what you love?
When pushes come to shove.
How do you say what you love?
When things are upside down.
How do you say what you love?
When times are getting tough.

00:02:05:06 - 00:02:09:02
Mark Titus
Sarah and Chance. Welcome. Where are you guys today?

00:02:09:04 - 00:02:16:08
Chance Ruder
So we are in Columbus, Georgia. It's right on the border between Georgia and Alabama. This is our home base.

00:02:16:10 - 00:02:21:22
Mark Titus
And how often are you at home base these days? I know you're on the road a lot.

00:02:22:00 - 00:02:38:08
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
It just depends from month to month. Honestly. you know, the last, like, three months, I think we were here for maybe, like, ten days solid, like five days at a time here and there. Three days here. Two days there, five days here. So.

00:02:38:08 - 00:02:47:12
Chance Ruder
But luckily, this summer we're getting a fair amount of time in a row at home. So we're we're really we've been here for a couple of weeks and we're enjoying that. Yeah.

00:02:47:14 - 00:03:00:01
Mark Titus
Oh well I was just going to ask how does that make you feel that you get restless to want to get back out there? Or are you like, Thank you. Just a little bit of a respite for me.

00:03:00:03 - 00:03:17:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I have to say. Typically I get restless, I'm like, okay, when is our next thing? When are we going somewhere else? but this time I was ready to be home. I told chances we were, like, nearing our last things. I was like, can we just, like, spend, like, a week at home? Just like a week where we're not doing anything?

00:03:17:11 - 00:03:34:19
Chance Ruder
Which is a stunning reversal because, I'm typically the homebody. I, I like having roots. I like being in one place for a while and, you know, taking care of my fish tank and having, you know, like the yard look nice. And so, it was very refreshing to hear her say that she wanted to come home and be here for a minute.

00:03:34:19 - 00:03:40:07
Chance Ruder
Although I am ready, I think, to get things kicked off for our next season.

00:03:40:09 - 00:04:16:02
Mark Titus
I understand, I understand both of those things, and we can hold both of those things. wanting to have some respite in some time. And I recently had a retreat where, it was gone completely off for five days. All the things quieted down and out in nature, and it was perfection. And it came back to all the things and the noise and at first I was really still floating on that magic carpet, from nature and gradually sort of reintegrated.

00:04:16:04 - 00:04:38:20
Mark Titus
And now I'm just kind of annoyed. Yeah. So all the noise we talked earlier about the guys beeping on the construction across the way. So, dear listener, I hope you're not going to hear any of that today. well y'all, let's let's start with the good stuff. Tell us your story. Where did you each grow up, and how did you each fall in love with the natural world?

00:04:38:22 - 00:05:04:06
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, absolutely. so I grew up not very far from here, just south of Atlanta, Georgia. so, you know, hour and a half from where we live now and I grew up taking summer vacations with my family to the beach, a little place called Cape San Blas on the panhandle of Florida. And just really learned to love the ocean there and connect with nature.

00:05:04:06 - 00:05:25:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
My grandmother, you know, made sure to take every opportunity to track down, like the local Turtle Beach Patrol and be like, oh, can we go out with you? And, you know, my daughter loves animals. So can we, you know, go look for turtles with you. And they were very gracious to have us along. and I think that's kind of where the love for it started.

00:05:25:11 - 00:05:37:18
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And then, of course, I had a family who made sure to, you know, let me go to, summer camps at the aquarium. And I was just always looking for ways to get more involved with nature.

00:05:37:20 - 00:05:43:02
Mark Titus
How old do you think you first kind of got the bug. Do you do you remember?

00:05:43:04 - 00:06:09:05
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I mean, honestly, for as long as I can remember. So I remember, I think my earliest memories. I must have been, like, three years old. I was born in another small town called Natchez, Mississippi. and I remember going out on this jet ski on a lake with my dad and looking for birds and crocodiles, and I don't have many memories from that age, but that's just like a brief little thing that I really remember.

00:06:09:05 - 00:06:26:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
So, yeah, for as long as I can remember, I've always wanted to do something with wildlife, nature, you know, I wanted to be a dolphin trainer when I grew up, and I did that for a while before we started our own business. But yeah, I have always just had a passion and love for nature.

00:06:26:19 - 00:06:43:18
Mark Titus
Wow. Well, first of all, for a chance to get to you, you you hit the 99% or you're rather in the 1% of the people who actually get to be a dolphin trainer. I physically know multiple people that said they wanted to do that, and you've done it, so you're ahead of the curve.

00:06:43:23 - 00:06:46:08
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Well, yeah, I'm a very determined person.

00:06:46:10 - 00:06:55:23
Chance Ruder
Literally. One of my favorite things about Sarah Kathryn is that when she wants to do something or like, sets her mind to it, it's gonna you need to get out of the way because it's going to happen. Basically.

00:06:56:01 - 00:07:09:21
Mark Titus
I love that. I love that we're teaming up, too, because that makes me that makes me happy. I can identify with that. Well, chance, how about you? Do you go back that far? Do you have memories from three or even before of just being in love with the natural world?

00:07:09:23 - 00:07:33:06
Chance Ruder
So I always tell people that I was born loving animals. It was very intrinsic in just who I am. my my parents are both very sports oriented people, you know, captain, the football team played softball in college at a very high level. And I was never, ever, ever into that. They put me in soccer when I was about probably four.

00:07:33:06 - 00:07:49:19
Chance Ruder
And, I was the goalie because I didn't want to run because who wants to run? and I spent the entire game all season long just sitting in the grass and looking at the aphids and the ladybugs and the little creepy crawlies, and wondering why the ball was occasionally flying past my head and like, why they were kicking it towards me.

00:07:49:19 - 00:08:16:17
Chance Ruder
So, it's something that nature has always held my fascination. the first memory that I really, really have of that is my dad graduated from the Air Force Academy, and was in the military, my, the Air Force my entire life. And, when we were really, when I was really small, we went to the Air Force Academy to go see a football game as sort of like a, hey, here's this is what your dad used to do kind of thing.

00:08:16:17 - 00:08:35:04
Chance Ruder
And, at the half, which obviously I didn't care about the game at all. Totally sitting in the bleachers, like watching the bugs fly by and stuff like that. And until halftime comes around and it's tradition that at halftime for these off the games they fly a deer falcon through the stadium. So they've got a falconer come out, they fly their mascot.

00:08:35:04 - 00:08:57:00
Chance Ruder
And it just perfectly aligned in the universe of that bird flew probably within three feet over my head. And I was like dead silent for the rest of the day. I remember that, and I remember thinking like, I want like I'm getting chills talking about it now. But that to in action with something wild is what I want to do with the rest of my life.

00:08:57:00 - 00:09:24:09
Chance Ruder
And so from a very, very early age, I knew that I wanted to go into this world. And I was just really fortunate to have parents who, although they didn't know much about this world, they put as much effort into giving me these experiences as like a soccer mom puts into getting their kids to practice, like they were very intentional about creating opportunities for young chance to interact with nature and learn about it and learn how to to communicate about it.

00:09:24:11 - 00:09:27:05
Mark Titus
Go, I'm and dad. Yeah, well dynastic parents.

00:09:27:09 - 00:09:31:15
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And what were you like 4 or 5 years old when you changed your name?

00:09:31:16 - 00:09:49:15
Chance Ruder
Yes. So legally, my name is not chance. it's Brooks is my my given name. And in first grade. So I think I was 4 or 5. I looked at my mom and I was like, mom, I'm a chance for wildlife. Call me chance. And she was like, all right, sure. Why not? You know, a little flower child.

00:09:49:15 - 00:10:10:00
Chance Ruder
Go for it. and I didn't know how to spell chance at the time, so, like, we've got the paper school papers where I spelled chance K and S because I just. That's the sound that it ended on was a sound. So, we figured that out eventually. We got there by second grade, but, yeah, it's it's literally always been my life is caring about the environment and trying to get other people to care.

00:10:10:02 - 00:10:20:01
Mark Titus
That is so rad. And think, think about if you stuck with your original spelling though, where you could go with that, all the interpretation. You could be Sean's or.

00:10:20:03 - 00:10:21:00
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Could be like French.

00:10:21:00 - 00:10:21:11
Chance Ruder
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:21:16 - 00:10:21:23
Mark Titus
That's right.

00:10:22:01 - 00:10:23:15
Chance Ruder
How are we doing that?

00:10:23:17 - 00:10:33:06
Mark Titus
My wife's name is Wenche. It's spelled Wenche and you can imagine the creative pronunciations she gets with that. And she's super stoked about that.

00:10:33:06 - 00:10:34:10
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
But oh yeah.

00:10:34:12 - 00:10:54:14
Mark Titus
You want shame. Yeah. When she loves that one. Yeah, I'm sure that's a favorite. Yeah. But you can't go wrong with Chance. That's super rad. And Sarah Kathryn is is beautiful as well. So thank you for that. That and a thousand. and I gotta ask, you know, before we get into the, the, the meat of the matter here, how did you meet?

00:10:54:14 - 00:10:56:17
Mark Titus
How did you two meet? How did you come together?

00:10:56:19 - 00:11:23:16
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, I guess I'll tell that story. so along with the dolphin training ride that I was on, you know, a lot that looked like lots of internships, lots of volunteering, lots of unpaid work before I finally started working in that field. so after I graduated college, I graduated from Auburn, and I took an internship down in the Florida Keys at a dolphin center down there.

00:11:23:18 - 00:11:47:23
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And chance just happened to be working with a friend that I knew down in the Florida Keys. It was actually the person I was going to be living with while I was doing that internship. and so I guess unbeknownst to him is how the story goes on his side. she had him come over for dinner that night and that as far as I knew it, he was there to help me move my dresser.

00:11:47:23 - 00:11:53:07
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And I basically drove my Jeep down. I had a dresser and a suitcase of clothes, and that's all I had.

00:11:53:13 - 00:12:02:13
Chance Ruder
I did not know that I was there to move the dresser. I was just hanging out with my friend and she was like, oh, by the way, a friend who's come to stay with me is going to get here in a couple of hours. You want to hang out? I was like, sure, why not?

00:12:02:13 - 00:12:28:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, you're going to help me move this person. And, so, yeah, I drove up, he helped me move that dresser and, and I went out to dinner with another friend. but we very quickly realized that we just had this really similar passion and these similar stories and I just, you know, over time, I wasn't looking for any kind of relationship, but over time, I just fell in love with the person that Chance's.

00:12:28:17 - 00:12:42:12
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And, you know, his past and like, his passions and his care for the world. And we aligned so much, that we tried out a relationship and it just happened to work.

00:12:42:14 - 00:13:09:20
Chance Ruder
And I always tell people that, like so the nonprofit that eventually became Conservation Connection, the idea for that predates our relationship. We were not dating. We were friends. But, you know, there was nothing romantic had happened. Yet when we were like, how cool would it be if we went into business together and started doing this, like mass media stuff, or just this work connecting people to our environment who can't or don't otherwise connect to it?

00:13:09:20 - 00:13:35:02
Chance Ruder
Like, how can we reach the people that can't come down to the Florida Keys and go see dolphins, or experience an aquarium or the natural environment outside? How can we work with them? And I was literally that was like maybe two weeks into knowing each other because it was so clear that we had that passion together. and luckily everything else happened to work out that we got to, you know, fall in love and have a life partner and also be able to run a business together.

00:13:35:04 - 00:14:02:03
Mark Titus
It's really cool. You're still you're still in that 1%, maybe even bursting, a little bit lower. that's that's a wonderful story. so let's lead right into it then. We've got the seed. You've got this bright, shining little jewel of an idea. We all know it takes a lot to move from bright, shining little jewel into lifting something off the ground and manifesting it into the world.

00:14:02:06 - 00:14:04:10
Mark Titus
How did that happen?

00:14:04:12 - 00:14:23:18
Chance Ruder
So we had been chewing on this idea of a nonprofit, or we actually didn't even know it was going to be a nonprofit at the time, just some sort of science and environmental communications group and, living in the keys at the time. But at that point we were working for Florida Keys, Aquarium Encounters, doing education there and working with the public.

00:14:23:20 - 00:14:50:09
Chance Ruder
And then Hurricane Irma, made landfall as a category five hurricane in marathon, which was where we worked and, really did a lot of damage to the environment there, to the the buildings and the culture and everything. And, we were very fortunate that our home was not destroyed and we evacuated before there was any damage. So we really personally didn't lose a whole lot, but our community did.

00:14:50:09 - 00:15:08:11
Chance Ruder
So we spent about six months after the storm hit, working with the aquarium and helping them rebuild because it was an outdoor aquarium. So, you know, there's a lot of damage to the facility and, you know, just helping out neighbors and friends. And, luckily, we were able to get paid to do some of that work through the aquarium and stuff like that.

00:15:08:12 - 00:15:38:09
Chance Ruder
And we kind of looked at each other and had this moment of like, I this feels like the universe is giving us an opportunity to take stock of where we are and where this path is going to lead in five years, and is that where we want to be? And we decided that in order to build conservation, connection and what we wanted it to be, we, we needed to to live somewhere that we had a little more economic freedom and, and just could be in sort of this cocoon while we're growing and building this idea.

00:15:38:09 - 00:15:53:04
Chance Ruder
So we actually left the keys, in early 2018, and moved into Sarah Kathryn's parents basement. every millennial's dream is to start a nonprofit podcast from their in-law's basement. And we nailed that.

00:15:53:06 - 00:15:56:01
Mark Titus
You guys, in crushing all these parents. Amazing.

00:15:56:01 - 00:15:57:01
Chance Ruder
Just crushing it.

00:15:57:06 - 00:16:34:01
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, yeah. So that was definitely kind of the beginning of that journey. You know, we were it's hard to live in the Florida Keys, right? It's expensive. And you're pretty much spending every dollar you make to live there. So we were working part time down there. So on the days that we had off we would go and kind of have these planning sessions and yeah, we are very fortunate to have, both of us have very supportive families, who helped us accomplish this dream in this goal and support us as we were starting it up, along with, like, other random part time jobs that we picked up.

00:16:34:01 - 00:16:59:00
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And, you know, it didn't initially start as a podcast. The biggest part of what we did was working with school systems and, you know, helping students get out in nature, helping teachers find ways to still meet their standards. And, teach the curriculum they need to teach, but also connect with nature and not just be reading out of a book, essentially.

00:16:59:02 - 00:17:05:08
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
so that's kind of where it all started. but yeah, it was definitely a journey to begin it. Yeah.

00:17:05:10 - 00:17:05:16
Mark Titus
Yeah.

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:20:09
Chance Ruder
What I say a lot of the time, what I say, a lot of the time is just that I don't know how to do anything else. This is. This is what I love. It's it's been a passion since before I knew what a passion was. It's just part of who I am. And that's true for Sarah Kathryn as well.

00:17:20:09 - 00:17:52:15
Chance Ruder
And so, yeah, you just can't. I just can't turn my back on it. Even when, you know, there's months and months where we haven't been paid because we're in-between gigs for the nonprofit or there's late nights of categorizing transactions so that we can do our financial fiduciary duty for the nonprofit or whatever. Even in all of those hard times, it's all in service to this thing that we love so much and care about so much, and we get to see some real successes with it.

00:17:52:17 - 00:17:54:16
Chance Ruder
So it's worth it, you know?

00:17:54:18 - 00:18:18:21
Mark Titus
Yeah, there's just such a fundamental difference, waking up every day and working really hard, but loving what you're doing. And I mean, it's it really is true. Yeah. It doesn't diminish the amount of toil and work and sweat and frustration and all those things, but it does feel like you're not really working. You know, person who loves what they do.

00:18:18:23 - 00:18:45:09
Mark Titus
you you both are very intentional. That's super clear. And, and also, I think attentional, you pay attention to what's happening around you and integrate that into your life's decisions. So with with that as a backdrop, what would you say the core mission for Conservation Connection is? What are you hoping to do out there with this work?

00:18:45:11 - 00:19:10:17
Chance Ruder
Yeah. So so our official nonprofit goal is to create opportunities for people to learn how to care for the planet by creating engaging, programs and bringing them to them wherever they are. So when I boil that down, what we do is we help people have a relationship with nature full stop. That's that's the kernel of what it is.

00:19:10:18 - 00:19:36:19
Mark Titus
Wonderful. That's. But we can park it right there and it becomes a life well-lived. If you you even get near that. So, let's, let's get a little more specific. So I've talked with scientists on this show, and while filming my docs over the years, and they've told me that communicating their research and data in a compelling way to the general public is a real challenge.

00:19:36:21 - 00:19:49:03
Mark Titus
I know this is a core issue you have tackled. Two how have you to approach this? especially with young students and or rather students in general and young scientists.

00:19:49:05 - 00:20:14:15
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, definitely. it is one of the big issues that we've seen and early on in the podcast. So we were like, you know, this is really kind of a core part of what we're doing is initially we just wanted to talk to scientists. Really. I don't think when we started it was like, we want to help communicate science because it's lacking.

00:20:14:17 - 00:20:49:23
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
But there was a part of us that knew that we wanted to tell stories differently. So I think when we started like science communication as like a field or like a concept wasn't so much here yet. Like we didn't hear that a lot. but we knew that talking to scientists, friends of mine that I went to college with and stuff like that, that there is an issue sometimes with how stories were told very sensationalized and over the top, and then not really hitting on the core issues.

00:20:49:23 - 00:20:59:23
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
It's like, okay, well, you told us in an entertaining way and we got some information, but did we get the information that the scientist is really trying to share?

00:21:00:05 - 00:21:00:19
Mark Titus

00:21:01:11 - 00:21:12:01
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
so chance I guess, can tell a little bit more about how we've folded that in to the podcast as we've moved forward and how we try to help young scientists, focus on that.

00:21:12:03 - 00:21:36:17
Chance Ruder
Yeah. Because for me, science, even if you're counting the hairs on a fruit fly, science is exciting because at the core of what science is, is it's learning things that nobody has ever known before. It's it is a real life, you know, discovery novel that's playing out in front of your life and in front of your eyes, and you get to be the main character of that.

00:21:36:17 - 00:21:59:10
Chance Ruder
And I think that that is regardless of the science happening, I think that is always interesting. But that's just me. I, you know, I have that that intrinsic draw towards discovery and curiosity and stuff like that. but I also have a huge amount of experience in public speaking and communicating. And, you know, I, I have a degree in biology.

00:21:59:10 - 00:22:22:01
Chance Ruder
I did original research in herpetology in my undergraduate, but I also have a, bachelor's degree in theater because, I always knew that I wanted to be involved. Right. I there's not many of us out there, but it's a the science can only go so far on its own. It needs help to get in front of the people who need to hear it.

00:22:22:03 - 00:22:48:01
Chance Ruder
And it's not fair to ask a scientist who has spent, you know, 12 plus years honing their technical skills to also be experts in communicating that story to the public. I think we really get tied up in the idea that I, as a individual, or we as a team of two, have to do all of the work. I have to take care of every aspect from start to finish, and that's just not true.

00:22:48:01 - 00:23:18:15
Chance Ruder
We work in a community. Nothing exists in a vacuum. And so, we work really hard to be excited about the nitty gritty details. And Sarah, Kathryn and I do this, this duet thing where I as the research background and as the, the, you know, really science techie guy, love to dig into those details. And Sarah Kathryn hauls me back with a leash and says, okay, that's super cool, but most of our audience is not going to care exactly how they did that, you know, spectroscopy in this particular thing.

00:23:18:17 - 00:23:21:13
Chance Ruder
and she brings a lot of really fun.

00:23:21:15 - 00:23:39:04
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I like to say I'm like the normal person in the podcast. I'm just like, I, I act as like your average listener, even though I do have some of that background, too. I really try to be like, okay, what's our audience thinking right now? Or like you just said, this really weird thing that has nothing to do with really anything that we're talking about.

00:23:39:04 - 00:23:41:13
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
But let's go back to that. What about that?

00:23:41:15 - 00:23:52:02
Mark Titus
And speaking of what is the Skippy that you just mentioned? You just rolled that right in there. And I had no, I didn't catch it. Yeah, I think so.

00:23:52:07 - 00:24:12:16
Chance Ruder
yes. Spectroscopy, spectroscopy. That's basically looking at how light passes through objects. And you can get a sense of what that chemical is or that, that whatever you're examining based off of how light hits it and responds to it. So it's really useful when you're looking at, they do it a lot in like as when you're looking at stars, right?

00:24:12:17 - 00:24:13:20
Mark Titus
That's what I was thinking out of yet.

00:24:13:22 - 00:24:15:21
Chance Ruder
Yeah, but yeah, but how do we get eyes?

00:24:15:21 - 00:24:18:11
Mark Titus
We're all learning today. This is we got it full.

00:24:18:15 - 00:24:19:10
Chance Ruder
We got it.

00:24:19:12 - 00:24:44:03
Mark Titus
Absolutely. That's funny too. And and, and you guys out there, we were giggling a little moment ago because I was pointing at myself. I, I too, I don't have the degree, but I too majored in theater arts when I was, in college and at the University of Oregon and much to my parents chagrin. But I'll tell you what, it is been the most useful thing for sure in my career.

00:24:44:04 - 00:25:10:12
Chance Ruder
No reason to like to dump on like a theater degree and if if you don't have a plan, it can be difficult to make a living with just a theater degree. But I tell you what, I got some real hard skills. total theater at Davidson College. In part because I wasn't just studying acting. I was also studying playwriting, and I was studying directing, and I was studying scenic design, which was, you know, kind of the biggest part of what I did.

00:25:10:18 - 00:25:30:00
Chance Ruder
I spent four years working in a scene shop, that gave me the skills to yesterday we were working with a group of local students, and we were able to build a model hydroelectric dam right on the Chattahoochee River, where we have an actual hydroelectric dam, that that physical ability to think about constructing things and how it's going to be used.

00:25:30:02 - 00:25:41:21
Chance Ruder
I practiced that for four years with a theater degree, and it comes in handy so often. And, yeah, all you theater majors out there use those skills because they are incredibly useful.

00:25:41:22 - 00:26:04:19
Mark Titus
Absolutely. Badge of honor. Wear it proud and loud and go get it, because it is totally useful skills. I mean, you got to interact with people. You have to be able to communicate with people. You have to be able to tell a coherent story no matter what you're doing. I don't care what you're doing. Like my wife's in finance, she has to tell a coherent story to the rest of her team, or the whole thing folds up like a cheap lawn chair.

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:08:06
Mark Titus
So that's exactly what.

00:26:08:08 - 00:26:32:04
Chance Ruder
I'm saying, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's all about telling a story. Because telling stories is really how we change behavior and change mindsets. Telling stories is what we did before. We had science and journals and the written word. It was talking. It was all talking. And that's how we passed information from generation to generation for most of human's existence.

00:26:32:04 - 00:26:37:02
Chance Ruder
It's only now that we have, you know, some different tools to make that happen.

00:26:37:04 - 00:27:02:03
Mark Titus
That's right. Well, let's hover on this a little bit longer. I love what you're doing in this space. and you're doing it effectively. What have you gleaned from this approach to telling this story, telling the story of data, telling the story of research in a way that is discernible, palatable, entertaining, and, and illuminating about this world around us.

00:27:02:03 - 00:27:10:09
Mark Titus
What what have been your observations about this? Has it been a wild success the entire time, or have you had some speed bumps, like, has it gone for you?

00:27:10:11 - 00:27:14:15
Chance Ruder
So I would say, it is.

00:27:14:17 - 00:27:15:21
Mark Titus
I was shocked.

00:27:15:23 - 00:27:45:02
Chance Ruder
From day one, how kind of naturally it came, because really, all it is is talking to scientists or conservationists like they're people, which is pretty easy because I talk to people all the time. and basically befriending people so they feel comfortable enough to share their truth. That's, that's really at the core of what we're doing is, is making people comfortable enough to trust us with the telling of their story.

00:27:45:04 - 00:28:19:15
Chance Ruder
and I think really, what I have learned and discovered, I kind of always knew this, but every single person I have spoken to is an interesting person to me. Every single human that I get the opportunity to really dive deep in about their work absolutely has a fascinating story to tell, and it's worth listening to. completely selfishly, we always say that podcasting is the best networking tool we've ever, ever come across is because you get to build a deep connection with somebody for 45 minutes to an hour.

00:28:19:15 - 00:28:47:07
Chance Ruder
That is, it's real, it's genuine, it's authentic. If it's not it, it doesn't play on the airwaves. Right? It doesn't sound good if it's not authentic. So it's just people coming together and and sharing who they really are at, at their core internal self. And that's that's fascinating to people because I think we live in a world where that doesn't always feel safe, it doesn't always feel, comfortable to be exactly who you are for everybody to see.

00:28:47:07 - 00:29:14:01
Chance Ruder
And I totally get that. I do that to living out in the world. But, I think humans are drawn to humans or a social or social species, and we do lack sometimes the opportunity to connect with people on a deeper level. And so we seek that out wherever we can. And, and, that's probably been one of my greatest joys with this nonprofit as a whole is just getting to connect with with interesting people, really deeply.

00:29:14:03 - 00:29:35:02
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, it definitely started, as, you know, for me, I was like, what could this podcast be about? And I was like, you know, there's lots of things I want to learn more about. And I always use the example of physics because I took a physics class in high school and it was fine. I didn't do great, but I'm like, I would love to learn more about physics, you know?

00:29:35:02 - 00:29:51:22
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
But like, I don't want to read a textbook. And I think a lot of people feel that way about like, you know, sciences and biology and that kind of stuff and the things that we're interested in and like, good at talking about. So I was like, you know, we can be that for some people, a way for people to say, oh, this topic looks interesting.

00:29:51:22 - 00:30:20:22
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I want to learn a little bit more. And if they enjoy it, they can find more information somewhere else. Maybe by going to the link of the person that we spoke to or, you know, finding a book from the library that, has some more details. and so it's been really interesting to explore that. And like chance said, honestly, it's sometimes feels almost a little selfish to end the podcast because it's like we get to meet and talk to some really, really cool and really interesting people.

00:30:20:22 - 00:30:27:04
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
So it's definitely a networking tool too, which has been a, definitely added benefit.

00:30:27:06 - 00:30:54:11
Mark Titus
Yeah. And you know, the other thing I, I just read again this week is, Gen Z folks have a really sensitive bullshit meter. And, it was saying this article was saying that, Generation Alpha, even more so are going to be attuned to what is playing as a genuine human interaction versus a construct, a corporate media construct.

00:30:54:13 - 00:31:20:16
Mark Titus
And, I think you're so, so, so right. the greatest part and I've said this many times, two of all the, my favorite work and I used to be a guide in Alaska held true there too. But whether it's making documentaries or doing this podcast or the guiding, it was meeting these individual peoples and getting to learn their stories one on one and, and go into that depth.

00:31:20:18 - 00:31:44:17
Mark Titus
because everybody, everything you're right, has a depth of complexity. Of course it does. It's all part of this great interconnected universe in this part of nature, which is what we're talking about today. Strange that we, we went down I didn't script the theater piece. And you know what? We're actually going to we're going to have some poetry involved in this podcast today as well.

00:31:44:22 - 00:32:16:15
Mark Titus
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00:32:16:17 - 00:32:42:02
Mark Titus
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00:32:42:04 - 00:33:00:23
Mark Titus
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00:33:01:01 - 00:33:12:19
Mark Titus
You are out in the field a lot. You're on the road a lot. How does that work? And do you dig going to people where they are to tell their story?

00:33:12:21 - 00:34:01:09
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, definitely. It is something that we've talked about a lot. You know, we've been doing this podcast since 2019. and I think we've done one virtual episode on our podcast. And of course, this kind of being our second one with you, and we're going to be having you on our show later, but it has been really important to us to keep it a podcast that we record in person, because again, it almost feels a little selfish, but we really enjoy connecting with people face to face and just fine, and that we aren't able to make that same connection virtually as we are to be able to, you know, whether it's working with a

00:34:01:09 - 00:34:25:02
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
college and going to work with their students and their professors and meeting them and seeing their lab, it's just completely different than talking to them over zoom or something. And then again, you know, you mentioned traveling a lot. A lot of that is for like conferences and forums that we work with, and we go to tell the stories of the people at these events.

00:34:25:02 - 00:34:49:20
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And we get to partake in those events as well. And again, as part of that networking, and it's just it is constantly leading us to figure out how we can evolve the podcast, how we can tell more stories, how we can partner with these people to, expand their reach. so yeah, that's kind of we we just make it work.

00:34:49:20 - 00:34:54:10
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Honestly, sometimes it is like, oh my gosh, how are we doing all this traveling? Like, it's crazy.

00:34:54:10 - 00:35:20:17
Chance Ruder
But but we really lucked out very early on in the podcast. And to kind of contextualize all of this, I think virtual stuff is a lot more commonplace today in 2024 than it was when we started in 2019. Thank you. Covid, there's a lot more infrastructure for conducting and connecting virtually than there used to be. but we really lucked out in that we had two events very literally.

00:35:20:17 - 00:35:40:13
Chance Ruder
The first two things basically that we did with the podcast. One was, we we reached out to Grace Marine Lab at College of Charleston and said, hey, you've got a bunch of scientists that are all looking at very different things. We could come and be here for two days and get eight interviews across eight very broad topics.

00:35:40:15 - 00:36:06:01
Chance Ruder
and really in a very cost effective manner, because it's a podcast and it doesn't make money. We can come get these stories all at one point. and that worked really, really well. And then Sarah Kathryn, who, like I said, is a very determined woman, found a conference in Dallas. Again. We're based in Georgia, found a conference in Dallas that was happening in two weeks and said, chance, is it okay if I shoot them an email and ask if we can show up and podcast there?

00:36:06:03 - 00:36:15:01
Chance Ruder
And I was like, sure, I'm not going to be the guy that says, no, we can't do that, because obviously they're going to be like, no, we have everything set and there's no space, but we appreciate you and we'll talk next year.

00:36:15:06 - 00:36:27:06
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
We're very well balanced, in the way that I'm like the pusher and I'm like, hey, there's a saying in like two weeks, can we go? And he's like, is that reasonable? but he let me reach out.

00:36:27:07 - 00:36:33:07
Chance Ruder
And, they were like, yeah, sure. Come on. And so we went to Earth X and Dallas in 2019, and.

00:36:33:07 - 00:36:34:07
Mark Titus
Nice.

00:36:34:09 - 00:36:44:23
Chance Ruder
Got 27 episodes in five days, which was in truly insanity. And we don't do that anymore. We, we dial back.

00:36:45:01 - 00:36:49:00
Mark Titus
Great, great. You can see head spin just thinking about that. Wow.

00:36:49:02 - 00:36:50:14
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
It was it made our spin too.

00:36:50:14 - 00:37:17:20
Chance Ruder
Yeah, but it was it was the kind of exhausting where like after a hard day's work. Yeah. And you've accomplished something. Yeah. you don't want to do it again the next day, but you're really, really glad that you did the work and got there. And, so that's a lot of how we travel is we go in bursts and we go and record a whole season's worth or, you know, most of a season across a week.

00:37:17:22 - 00:37:38:12
Chance Ruder
And then we bring that home and we chew on it and we think about it and we, record the week that we release the episode, which is usually a, you know, a month, two months after we've recorded it, that same week that we're releasing it, Sarah, Kathryn and I sit down and have a conversation about what that episode meant and kind of how we felt about it and what are the key themes.

00:37:38:12 - 00:37:53:20
Chance Ruder
And, and, it really is this balance of like batching content in a really cost effective way for a nonprofit podcast, but also being able to stay relevant to what is happening when it's released and people are hearing it for the first time. it's a super fun.

00:37:53:21 - 00:37:54:17
Mark Titus
Super.

00:37:54:19 - 00:37:59:13
Chance Ruder
Super fun way to do things, even if it is absolutely exhausting at times.

00:37:59:15 - 00:38:36:07
Mark Titus
Well, I get it. And I film like that a lot. Like with the documentary and, and lumping together the podcast episodes as well, that's just the most effective way to use time. and I also completely get that satisfied exhaustion piece of that thing. I mean, you've got gold, you have this beautiful wealth. Truly, when you're finished with with all of that, and it feels to me it's skin in it, to me it's akin to, like, the larder is full for the winter time.

00:38:36:07 - 00:38:49:21
Mark Titus
Like, we've got all of our food all of the winter gathered up, and there's just a very real satisfaction to that. So I totally feel what you're what you're saying. And, but even still, 27 episodes. Wow.

00:38:49:23 - 00:38:51:21
Chance Ruder
Yeah, well, that was too many episodes to get.

00:38:51:23 - 00:38:54:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
We don't do it like that anymore.

00:38:54:13 - 00:39:19:08
Mark Titus
Yeah. You're young. so indulge me. I promised a poem. You're going to get a poem. And, this just stuck out to me. I've been reading poetry every morning since I got back from this retreat several weeks ago, and it's been a great way to start the day. It's a it's a portal into quiet and into that that which is greater.

00:39:19:08 - 00:39:40:00
Mark Titus
And I just wanted to read this and I'm going to have a question for you afterwards. So this is a poem by Mary Oliver called when I Am Among the Trees. And it goes like this when I'm among the trees, especially the willows and the honey locust, especially the beach, the oaks and the pines, they give off such hints of gladness.

00:39:40:00 - 00:40:15:04
Mark Titus
I would almost say that they saved me. And daily I'm so distant from the hope of myself in which I have goodness and discernment. And never hurry through the world, but walk slowly and bow often around me. The trees stir in their leaves and call out, stay awhile. The light flows from their branches and they call again. It's simple, they say, and you two have come into the world to do this, to go easy, to be filled with light and to shine.

00:40:15:06 - 00:40:18:22
Mark Titus
So I love that just it's love.

00:40:18:22 - 00:40:20:21
Chance Ruder
Reaction to that. That's fantastic.

00:40:20:23 - 00:40:45:23
Mark Titus
It's just a beautiful, beautiful piece. She's, She is just perfect. And, you know, working in this digital space on your own is tough. I do the same. I know what it's like working together as a couple, I'm sure has its challenges. How are you making it all work and not burning out? And what feeds you along the way?

00:40:46:01 - 00:40:56:14
Mark Titus
And what are the luminous trees for each of you as you take this journey together?

00:40:56:16 - 00:41:37:08
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I think for me, and kind of, I felt like this might be where you were going with reading that poem and what you might follow up with. and it made me think about the places that we do have the opportunity to go to in record. We are typically pretty intentional when we have an extra day that we can be out there, if it works with our schedule to go and try to explore the area and get to know it and get out in nature there and two of my favorite places that come to mind, or we've had the opportunity to work with the Sitka Sound Science Center in Alaska a few times.

00:41:37:08 - 00:41:39:05
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yes. If you know, it's amazing.

00:41:39:06 - 00:41:40:09
Mark Titus
It's beautiful.

00:41:40:11 - 00:42:03:09
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah. Sitka is beautiful and the science center is just so amazing. And the people there are so friendly and they have this amazing event called Whale Fest every year around Halloween. And, we got to go out there twice and those are the only two times I've ever been to Alaska and just experiencing that place in that town right on the ocean.

00:42:03:09 - 00:42:31:23
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
It's just like otherworldly, honestly. Like the connection you feel with nature in a small town like that. And the Marina, I mean, every time we go, we see, like, sea otters and seals and bald eagles and just a crazy amount of wildlife and being able to connect with it and enjoy it in that place and the nature that it has to offer is just so amazing.

00:42:31:23 - 00:42:54:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And it also kind of gives a sense of like, there's a lot of reasons why we do this work, you know, the importance to share other people's science and to communicate it. But to see those wild and beautiful places, you know, sometimes that just feels like this is why we do this work. This is why it's important.

00:42:54:17 - 00:43:04:15
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
This is what we're protecting at the end of the day. And, kind of what keeps us going. And another one of those places is in Sun Valley, Idaho.

00:43:04:15 - 00:43:06:10
Chance Ruder
You know, that's where you're going.

00:43:06:12 - 00:43:28:13
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
When we've gotten to experience the wild spaces out there. You know, we got to go, trout fishing. We got to learn how to fly fish while we were up there, which is so amazing. And, yeah, just being able to experience some of those more untouched natural places is really amazing. And that's kind of what helps bring me back sometimes.

00:43:28:13 - 00:43:30:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And it's a nice breath of fresh air.

00:43:30:13 - 00:44:00:16
Chance Ruder
And I think to kind of connect that to when we're not traveling and we're home and we're just sitting in our house, laptops on our laps, editing audio or sending hundreds of emails, trying to figure out the next thing. And it just feels so disconnected from being outside. We any time that that we start to to feel that kind of dip in that lull, we, we go to the river, which we're very fortunate here in Columbus to be on the Chattahoochee.

00:44:00:17 - 00:44:26:00
Chance Ruder
And there's a very intentional choice. When we got to the point where we could move out and buy a house and, you know, kind of put down roots somewhere. We we knew we wanted to be on the water. we both have. Sarah Kathryn has worked in Hawaii and been on the water and whales and I, I've worked in the Caribbean and and, you know, lived in Florida and, and water is just really a through line for us as individuals and for us as a couple.

00:44:26:00 - 00:44:43:10
Chance Ruder
And so in Columbus, we're, we're right at the fall line. So I think probably most of the people who listen for you are out on the West Coast. So over here on the East Coast, at the Appalachian Mountains, there's what's called the Fall line that runs all the way from down here in Alabama up to, you know, New England.

00:44:43:10 - 00:45:07:13
Chance Ruder
And it's where that mountain range drops really fast. And then it levels out to the coastal plain, for the, for the rest of the ride out to the ocean. So our river drops about 100ft over, I think, ten miles in elevation. So, that there's so much energy in our water here. There's. And it has been that way for hundreds of thousands of years.

00:45:07:15 - 00:45:41:13
Chance Ruder
this was a settlement for the Muskogee Creek Indians for long before European contact, because, the river here is a gathering place for life. I think that that is, that is and not just the whole river, but here specifically in Columbus, because the water is so much energy. when we're at a low, we walk out to the river and we get to stand there and feel the sunshine and listen to this rushing water that never stops, whether we're there or we're not there.

00:45:41:13 - 00:46:01:13
Chance Ruder
That water continues, and it comes from the mountains, and it goes to the sea, and you get to sort of stand there and see the great blue herons and hear the children that are laughing because they're getting to splash in the water and, and just understand that you are a single moment in this vast stretch of time and everything is connected to each other.

00:46:01:13 - 00:46:24:02
Chance Ruder
And it's it always, for me, brings a sense of gratitude to be where I am and doing what I am with who I'm doing it with. It's just I'm just so grateful for that and that it like, it's like flicking a flea away. It just like completely eradicates that sense of of disconnection and that sense of, you know, loss of direction.

00:46:24:02 - 00:46:29:08
Chance Ruder
It just immediately grounds me back into this is why I'm doing what I'm doing.

00:46:29:10 - 00:46:51:23
Mark Titus
You're speaking my love language. All of it. I mean, starting with the river. I do exactly the same thing. When. When it's time and when I need to remind myself why I'm actually here. I head out to the Snoqualmie River. And every time, even if it's for an hour, a half an hour, much less a full day, it's a it's a complete reset.

00:46:52:03 - 00:47:31:00
Mark Titus
It's a complete renewal of that exact phenomenon you're talking about, about being present in this moment in time. And what a miracle that is, this little ephemeral moment. And, you know, of course, in my case, you you, my, as you know, fascination, love, passion has been in salmon and that added piece of these beings, these mystical beings in my mind, who come clear back out from the vast gyres of the ocean to the exact spot in that river they were born, the exact spot to sacrifice themselves.

00:47:31:00 - 00:47:42:12
Mark Titus
So all of life capital l can continue on that that just it's never going to get old. And I hope you know it never will. and I think.

00:47:42:12 - 00:48:06:06
Chance Ruder
For us, it's kind of that equivalent of being an astronaut and seeing, Earth zoomed out through the, the window of the space station, that completely perspective reset that happens when you mentally zoom out of your little digital box that you're sitting in and realize how connected we are. I mean, the the electricity that is powering the laptop that we're having this conversation on.

00:48:06:08 - 00:48:23:08
Chance Ruder
Yeah, much of that came from the river. That is. Oh, yeah. You know, less than a mile away because we've got hydroelectricity here in Columbus. You know, it's it just zooming out and being willing to expand beyond your, your little blinders, is a complete perspective reset.

00:48:23:10 - 00:48:50:03
Mark Titus
Well, it's a great segway because you're you're right. And you don't have to go on some vast voyage across the sea to experience this. Right. And and that's what you learn as scientists. And I'm sure the folks that you talk to in the conservation community will tell you the same thing. You can find as much wonder in a flower as you can in this vast, giant waterfall or landscape.

00:48:50:05 - 00:49:11:12
Mark Titus
you mentioned water. It sounds like you both have this deep affinity for water and water scapes, but is there one particular entryway that is just for either of you? or for both of you that, is kind of your go to? You mentioned the river chance. That's great. But for for you, what would that be?

00:49:11:12 - 00:49:21:00
Mark Titus
What would is there is there something that is sort of that instant portal that takes you back, big or small?

00:49:21:02 - 00:49:49:02
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
so I guess you're if you're asking, like, you know, what kind of body of water, just like, let me reset. It's definitely the ocean for me. just the sound of, the feel of it, like it really is just like it transport you to, like, this other world, this other mindset for me, like, it's a complete reset every time I'm at the ocean.

00:49:49:04 - 00:50:13:10
Mark Titus
And is there something also that is like on the micro side, the, you know, the small side, if that's if the ocean is the ocean, because I share the same for sure, that sound in that vastness. But, like I was on this retreat and I had I had quiet time out in the wilderness and it literally was this, this tiny little flower in the middle of the forest.

00:50:13:10 - 00:50:44:12
Mark Titus
And of all the things I was sitting next to the stream, and of all the things I was just taking in by this little flower for hours, hours, literally hours, to experience that at all with your guests or their fascinations in the world of nature. What are some of those things that you've discovered as being these storytellers in the micro, as a in addition to the, the macro, the big, the big picture?

00:50:44:14 - 00:50:46:08
Chance Ruder
That is an excellent question.

00:50:46:10 - 00:50:46:18
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah.

00:50:46:23 - 00:51:00:08
Chance Ruder
I, I think something relatively recently in the show that, that, that connects to for me is, we did an interview with Doctor Saunders, who is a professor at.

00:51:00:10 - 00:51:01:01
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Flagler.

00:51:01:01 - 00:51:03:11
Chance Ruder
Flagler College in Florida. Thank you. So good.

00:51:03:11 - 00:51:03:23
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
We came out to.

00:51:03:23 - 00:51:31:09
Chance Ruder
See Saint Augustine. and she studies gopher tortoises. She's actually overall, she's a fire ecologist. So she looks at how landscapes respond to fire and in general disturbance as well. And in Florida they have hurricanes, as we've already discussed previously. And, she did a really interesting study looking at how hurricanes change the ways that gopher tortoises use the landscape.

00:51:31:11 - 00:51:59:09
Chance Ruder
go for tortoises here on the East coast or similar to, the desert tortoises you guys have for her out west, like in the Mojave Desert. And, they dig in the ground. They are really important species for over 300 different species of organisms use their burrows, their environmental engineers and we I asked her I did this thought exercise where I was like, I want you to imagine we're sitting around this desk and on this desk is a gopher tortoise.

00:51:59:11 - 00:52:24:13
Chance Ruder
Describe it for me. What do you see when you look at a gopher tortoise? And, she was pretty taken aback by the question, because I think that that a lot of times scientists don't get engaged in those kinds of thought and emotional thought experiments very, very frequently. And, just her description of this. So to, to describe a gopher tortoise, they're probably 18in long or so, maybe a little bit longer.

00:52:24:13 - 00:52:45:17
Chance Ruder
They're more pancake shaped. They don't have really domed shells. They're sort of your classic olive greenish grayish brownish turtle looking things. and they she describes the way that when you look at them, they just feel like they have this wisdom to them, this, this kind of timeless.

00:52:45:19 - 00:52:46:22
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Like the old wizard.

00:52:46:22 - 00:53:10:14
Chance Ruder
Yeah. Like an old wizard. And it was. It was. It was just, her fascination with just the organism, which I think a lot of people would walk by and go, oh, cool, look at that turtle. Which is completely fair. But for her, that was I mean, practically, her life's work is understanding how they think, how they move, how they interact with the environment, how the internet, how the environment interacts with them.

00:53:10:16 - 00:53:37:01
Chance Ruder
And that, really reflects, you know, it resonated with me. And I've been scuba diving for most of my life. And, it's cool to see shipwrecks and reefs and all this big macro stuff, but some of my favorite all time favorite experiences as a diver is when I went to, sit on a actually, it was while we were teaching, so we had to do a navigation course.

00:53:37:01 - 00:53:52:17
Chance Ruder
I'm a scuba instructor. We're doing a navigation course for some of our students while I was working out in the Caribbean. And what that meant was, we're going to put about 55 students through an underwater maze, but you get to use a compass, basically, so that you can prove to me that you know how to use a compass.

00:53:52:17 - 00:54:13:01
Chance Ruder
And so we had 5 or 6 instructors sitting at various points in the sand where there was no identifying characteristics, and you're going to sit there for about 3 or 4 hours at 15ft. And receive students and then point them to their next thing. And so a couple of times a summer, I would spend 3 or 4 hours just kneeling on the sand, occasionally interacting with students.

00:54:13:03 - 00:54:23:12
Chance Ruder
But when I tell you that some of the most fascinating things I've ever observed underwater came from those 3 or 4 hours at a time, a lot of people don't believe me because you're like, oh, you got to see sharks and blah, blah, blah. No, it's.

00:54:23:14 - 00:54:24:11
Mark Titus
It's the little.

00:54:24:13 - 00:54:54:11
Chance Ruder
Little Christmas tree worms that don't pop up until you've been completely still for ten minutes. Or it's the the sand colored fish that you thought were sand because they weren't moving. But when you stop and you just consider that even the barest scrap of sand on the ocean floor is teeming with life that you would never notice if you don't take the intentional time to stop and sit and allow yourself to just be still.

00:54:54:13 - 00:55:12:11
Chance Ruder
I just, I love it. I, I really, really resonate with that sense of like, here's a small thing that I'm going to focus on for an extended period of time to try to really understand its entirety, not just when it is. When I see it at first, but what it is when I see it ten minutes later, 20 minutes later, an hour later.

00:55:12:11 - 00:55:16:07
Chance Ruder
Right. You get a different perspective. The longer you look at something.

00:55:16:09 - 00:55:28:17
Mark Titus
In the truest sense of the word. That is wonderful. It is. It is full of wonder. There's nothing I can add that was perfectly told. Thank you.

00:55:28:19 - 00:55:30:08
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
He's a good storyteller.

00:55:30:10 - 00:55:55:15
Mark Titus
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I was right with you and we're going to we're going to zoom back out to the macro again, to start winding our, our, our tail up for the day here. But, where do you guys think we're headed with the health of our planet? And what do you feel each individual can do best to heal our wounded world?

00:55:55:17 - 00:56:26:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
That's a great question. you know, I think there is a lot of hopelessness in our field and our world right now, especially in regards to the environment and the climate. But honestly, telling the conversations that we get to tell and sharing those stories has given me and I think chances, well, a lot of hope, that things change is possible.

00:56:26:11 - 00:57:00:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
There are things that can be done. And I think that people just being willing to have conversations with each other, you know, so many times, so often we exist in this vacuum and do we have our own little world and our own little ideas. And most of our friends probably agree with the same thoughts we have. And so when we come into conflict with people and there's someone who doesn't agree, it can feel like, well, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, so I know that I'm right and there is no possible way that you could be right.

00:57:00:17 - 00:57:24:03
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
So I'm just going to think that you're wrong and that you're now the villain in my story. Right? but I think there is so much growth that can come from us just being willing to have conversations with other people and meet somewhere in the middle, because, I mean, that's that's how we grew up, right? Like as kids, it was just like, oh, you know, we weren't raised the same.

00:57:24:03 - 00:57:41:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
We don't have the viewpoints. But like, let's talk about this. Like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that without anyone feeling like, oh, if I say this, they might think I'm a bad person or they might not agree. And so then we're going to get into an argument. So I just don't want to even have that conversation.

00:57:41:17 - 00:57:56:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I don't want to go there. So I think just if everyone we're willing or even if more people, we're willing to open up and have conversations, I think there's a lot of hope for the world and our environment in general.

00:57:56:13 - 00:57:57:15
Mark Titus
Wonderful.

00:57:57:17 - 00:58:03:13
Chance Ruder
Yeah. To add on to that,

00:58:03:15 - 00:58:35:18
Chance Ruder
I think what you can do, what each individual can do best to create the brightest possible future for our planet, is to just love the planet, make time to experience it without expectation of anything, without being like, this is going to be the most beautiful hike I've ever been on. I hope it is. I hope that's true. But just creating space to have a relationship with the planet we live on is the single most important thing you can do.

00:58:35:18 - 00:59:01:14
Chance Ruder
Because having a relationship with the planet informs the decisions you make that affect that planet. And it it doesn't have to be. I'm going to sell my car and go homestead in the Alaskan wilderness, so I have the tiniest possible footprint. That's not that's not possible for most people. But knowing that we have an impact on the planet, that is always going to be true.

00:59:01:14 - 00:59:21:13
Chance Ruder
I mean, that's that's a scientific fundamental, right, is that observation changes the outcome. It is impossible to observe something without in some way affecting the outcome of that thing. Right. We you think about we thought for the longest time that praying mantises, when they meet the female, frequently eats the head of the male at the end of of mating.

00:59:21:13 - 00:59:36:14
Chance Ruder
That's a myth that has has been around for a very long time. Well, turns out no, they mostly do that because somebody is watching them, mate. And that's kind of a stressful thing. And they don't know if they're gonna have enough energy to run away at the end of mating or whatever. It's primarily because they're being observed. So.

00:59:36:17 - 00:59:59:01
Chance Ruder
So giving yourself space to understand that existing in the planet means changing the planet full stop. You can change it for the better, you can change it for the worse, and you're going to do a little bit of both throughout the entire day of your life. But having a relationship with the planet means that more often than not, you're going to be doing things that help it, rather than things that hurt it.

00:59:59:03 - 01:00:09:12
Chance Ruder
And, having those conversations, like Sarah Kathryn was saying, is a great way to share that experience of just loving the planet.

01:00:09:14 - 01:00:35:21
Mark Titus
What a great conversation, you guys. And you just molded to two questions into one. You hit me at the pass about how how how can we help heal our divided country, too. And you eloquently, eloquently spoke to that in this beautiful answer you gave. well, wine in this down here. Each of you, I'm sure, have maybe favorite episodes.

01:00:35:21 - 01:00:40:16
Mark Titus
You're you're over 100. You're 120 some episodes. 124.

01:00:40:16 - 01:00:41:22
Chance Ruder
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:42:01 - 01:01:00:00
Mark Titus
Holy smokes. I know they're they're all unique and they all have their own beauty, but, do you each have a favorite episode? And why would that be? And, Sarah, Kathryn, I'll start with you.

01:01:00:02 - 01:01:04:20
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah, that is a great question.

01:01:04:21 - 01:01:40:13
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I have two that come to mind. We did an interview. with the director of the Smithsonian Natural Museum of History. All right. a while back. This is probably in 2019, one of our very early episodes. And it was, I think I think it was a shorter episode. I think we kind of called it a mini episode, but, they had a new exhibit coming out, and, he got to tour David Attenborough around the exhibit, and that was a fun story to tell.

01:01:40:13 - 01:02:06:05
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
And he also told us about they have, a giant squirrel room with just, like, thousands of hives, you know, this stuff, squirrels that they've collected over the time of, like, all of these squirrels in the world. And, that was just a really fun and engaging episode. And and like you said, we've been able to tell so many, so it's hard to pick one, but that's a lot of the times when someone's like, oh, what episode should I listen to?

01:02:06:05 - 01:02:08:05
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I'm like, this one's pretty good.

01:02:08:07 - 01:02:13:09
Chance Ruder
Yeah. I think for me that that is an excellent episode. was that Kirk?

01:02:13:10 - 01:02:14:19
Mark Titus
Was that Kirk Johnson?

01:02:14:21 - 01:02:15:14
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yes, he was.

01:02:15:14 - 01:02:16:08
Chance Ruder
It was.

01:02:16:10 - 01:02:37:06
Mark Titus
So, Kirk I've been to his house here in well, their house his folks had here in Washington. And he is a dear close friend of my friend Ray troll, who was so funny, famed salmon t shirts. And they've, they've done all sorts of stuff together. And I filmed them together. And he is a super engaging guy. So I'm going to listen to that one too.

01:02:37:06 - 01:02:39:19
Mark Titus
So yes. Thank you and chance.

01:02:39:20 - 01:02:41:05
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Well tell him we say hi.

01:02:41:07 - 01:02:43:18
Mark Titus
Yeah. Well I certainly will.

01:02:43:20 - 01:03:11:02
Chance Ruder
Yeah. so that was truly an excellent episode. I'm cheating a little bit because I'm going to talk about an episode that happened relatively recently in season nine. Actually, I think it's the one that we launched season nine with, which is our most recent season. called rattlesnakes, our umbrellas. And, we, we recently kind of went through this revamping of the podcast where, you know, we were about four years in and, and we wanted to be a little more intentional about how we were growing into the future.

01:03:11:02 - 01:03:37:21
Chance Ruder
And so part of that was diving a little more deeply into the science and giving space to just really explore it and have fun with it. And so, we got to talk with Joseph, who is a wildlife biologist at Jekyll Island Authority. Jekyll Island is a barrier island off the coast of Georgia here. And they have a subspecies of eastern diamondback rattlesnake that only occurs on Jekyll Island.

01:03:37:23 - 01:04:01:14
Chance Ruder
So there's basically an eastern population, a western population, and the Jekyll Island population, where they're genetically distinct. They're, very interesting. They have to respond to kind of different environmental pressures than mainland snakes often do. but their population has been able to remain isolated because it's very difficult for a snake to get on or off of Jekyll Island as opposed to some of the other islands.

01:04:01:16 - 01:04:22:18
Chance Ruder
And we just got to spend like 45, maybe 50 minutes really chewing into the ecology of, snakes on the island. And Joseph was just amazing about communicating his science. And and sometimes you talk to a scientist who is really kind of nose to the bench. I do the work, and then somebody else communicates that, and that's totally fine.

01:04:22:20 - 01:04:44:03
Chance Ruder
There's people out here that do that job. Joseph. It was not one of the scientists. He is very intentional, intentional about finding ways to get his work into the hands of people who care, like the residents on Jekyll Island or the people who come and visit the island for vacation. And so it was just one of those those magic moments where you really vibe with somebody as soon as you meet them.

01:04:44:05 - 01:05:06:05
Chance Ruder
And, you know, we actually some of the people that he works with worked on the same diamondback terrapin project that I worked on at my undergraduate. That's kind of a long term study. And, I mean, he was we connected so well that he was like, hey, I you know, I also have a, small scale mushroom farming organization where I sell mushrooms to, to the local restaurants and stuff.

01:05:06:05 - 01:05:21:22
Chance Ruder
You should come by my house and come see how I do things, and I'll cook you up some of our giant king oyster mushrooms. And it was like this feast of like, they tasted like ribs, but they weren't mushrooms. And yeah, it was just a really cool guy and a really cool episode.

01:05:21:23 - 01:05:45:20
Mark Titus
Oh man. What? That sounds phenomenal. What a great day. And you get to record that. And you know, that's that's interesting. That's that's kind of the thought process behind the salmon business that that we started with was wild to that folks. You experienced these things and the stories speak to you. And then you get to take them in literally like almost like a sacrament.

01:05:45:20 - 01:06:05:09
Mark Titus
And and you're telling me this story here right now. So that feels kind of validating. Thank you. That's really good. Yeah. Good, good. Well, listen, you're not going to escape here without the going through the bonus round, and, everybody, everybody gets it. So don't don't feel like I'm picking on you, but, it's just a fun little thing that I came up with.

01:06:05:09 - 01:06:28:23
Mark Titus
It seems to be interesting to folks. so just a thought. A little imagination game here. let's let's say the river is rising, and as we know, with with things out there these days, this is not an impossibility. And you only have moments to you get each other out and your loved ones. And if you have pets, you get your pets out.

01:06:29:00 - 01:06:37:09
Mark Titus
the loved ones are all accounted for. But if you could only have time to take one physical thing, what would that one thing be for each of you?

01:06:37:11 - 01:06:59:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
So it is a great question, and I love that you do this after every one of your episodes. And I will say, we've listened to your show. So we knew that this is coming. So I'm prepared, thankfully, because this sort of really caught me off guard. so I think I, you know, who knows if it actually came to it, I might might come up with a better answer.

01:06:59:19 - 01:07:20:04
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
But, the answer I came up with is that we have this little ceramic lizard that we got in Mexico while we were traveling to Mexico, and we hide it around the house for each other to find, it's this little game that we play with each other just throughout the week. And when one of us finds it, we hide it for the other one, and it goes back and forth.

01:07:20:06 - 01:07:28:03
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
but I was like, yeah, I think I would save that. That would be a good little momentum to save. So that's that's my thing.

01:07:28:05 - 01:07:31:14
Chance Ruder
The lizard is actually in the room with us right now.

01:07:31:16 - 01:07:32:12
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
She's hazard.

01:07:32:16 - 01:07:36:06
Chance Ruder
She has no idea where it is and I can't give it away or else she'll know.

01:07:36:08 - 01:07:47:06
Mark Titus
Oh my God, this makes me so happy. This makes me so happy. I think I'm going to start a new tradition. This answer has never been given, and I think you're going to start a new tradition here in the Titus household. So well done.

01:07:47:06 - 01:07:48:15
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Love it.

01:07:48:17 - 01:07:49:22
Mark Titus
Chants. How about you?

01:07:50:00 - 01:07:54:05
Chance Ruder
You should get a little salmon, ceramic salmon or something. I think you're right.

01:07:54:07 - 01:07:56:14
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
I think you're little salmon ornament or something.

01:07:56:19 - 01:08:02:07
Mark Titus
It can be it's going to happen. And we have those. So yeah this beautiful learning every moment.

01:08:02:09 - 01:08:02:16
Chance Ruder
Done.

01:08:02:19 - 01:08:03:15
Mark Titus
Delight. So for.

01:08:03:15 - 01:08:30:17
Chance Ruder
Me. I I was thinking really hard about this one because I'm definitely the hoarder between the two of us, I have a lot of stuff which is not awesome. And but I have one of my most treasured possessions is, a ukulele that was given to me, kind of relatively early into us dating my mom got it for me as a birthday present, and, I've been playing since I was, in high school or.

01:08:30:23 - 01:08:54:06
Chance Ruder
Yeah, high school. And I actually have, Portuguese, Hawaiian ancestry. So I still have, family out on Maui, and, like, I can we can trace my family back to the Ravenscraig and the original machete, which is the instrument that was brought over in the late 1800s that became the ukulele. belonged to an ancestor of mine, the first one that was played in Hawaii.

01:08:54:08 - 01:09:07:20
Chance Ruder
that is in a museum somewhere, which is connected to my lineage. So it's. Which is wild. I had I didn't know about that until probably I'd been playing for ten years and my mom was like, did you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, you didn't think to tell me that earlier?

01:09:07:22 - 01:09:12:17
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
he's full of these random facts. This is like part of why I fell in love with him.

01:09:12:19 - 01:09:21:13
Mark Titus
You, man, if I didn't know you better, I'd say you got to be making this up. This is so cool. But, no, it's totally true.

01:09:21:13 - 01:09:44:08
Chance Ruder
And it's, and completely out of the blue, so that's obviously not the one that I own. But I was given a really nice performance quality, one that, I've had for several years, and I actually played it, while Sarah Kathryn was walking down the aisle in our wedding in Hawaii. And then I played it again at my brother's wedding reception, a few years ago.

01:09:44:08 - 01:10:03:21
Chance Ruder
So it it's this single instrument that's kind of been in both of, of our weddings. And he's my only, my only sibling. So, I think if I had to grab one thing, it would be that that ukulele that I love so much, it's actually the same instrument that I used to record the the music for our podcast when we were just like figuring things out.

01:10:03:21 - 01:10:15:00
Chance Ruder
And I was like, all I have is a PA system and a ukulele, and I need to to make some sort of an intro outro song, so that, that that particular instrument is really valuable to me.

01:10:15:02 - 01:10:31:09
Mark Titus
You two just don't like delightful. Yeah. All right. Well, if. Okay. One, one more part of this exercise. If you only could take one trait about you that makes you unique in all the world, what would that trait be? And chance. I'll stay on you.

01:10:31:11 - 01:10:55:02
Chance Ruder
Oh, I'm less prepared for this question. I think I, I've always considered myself very empathetic, almost to a form. and I just even when I'm at in conflict with somebody, I can't help but see things from their side and be like, get it? It's okay. and that has led me to a lot of issues in my life.

01:10:55:02 - 01:11:12:19
Chance Ruder
And, and, you know, it's I'm still kind of dialing in when it's good to be that empathetic and when I have to take a harder stance on things. But, it is really at the center of who I am is as an ability to empathize with somebody else's perspective and understand that and try to work to way to connect somebody.

01:11:12:19 - 01:11:15:03
Chance Ruder
So that that would be my trait.

01:11:15:05 - 01:11:18:03
Mark Titus
Beautiful. Sarah Kathryn.

01:11:18:05 - 01:11:38:11
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Jen's pointed out pretty early on in our relationship that I'm a very tenacious person, and I think I kind of always knew that. But I didn't know what to call it or didn't really recognize it. But I think I really value that tenacity that I have. So I think I would I would save that.

01:11:38:12 - 01:11:51:20
Mark Titus
Beautiful Sarah Kathryn and Chance Router, host of Conservation Connection amazing podcast. How can folks get in touch with you or follow what you're doing?

01:11:51:22 - 01:12:14:00
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
Yeah. So, we're most active on our Instagram channel, Conservation Connection. You can find a spare. We are trying to be better about posting regularly, so, yeah, that's where you'll get most of our updates. and then our website is Conservation Connection dot SEO. So you can find us there as well.

01:12:14:02 - 01:12:25:09
Chance Ruder
And then you can listen to our podcast. Wherever you're listening to this podcast right now, you can probably go find us. We're on pretty much every platform. We worked very hard to get our RSS feed included in a lot of places, so it's easy to listen.

01:12:25:11 - 01:12:40:23
Mark Titus
Wonderful. What a delightful, illuminating conversation. I'm so grateful. Thanks for jumping on today. I can't wait to go on the other side of this thing, and you're going to get your chance to grill me sometime in the future. Who?

01:12:41:01 - 01:12:44:20
Chance Ruder
I so very excited to have you on the show.

01:12:44:22 - 01:12:56:12
Mark Titus
Well, I can't wait for that either. And for now, we'll bid you adieu. You know, hopefully the Chattahoochee just stays calm, and you're not going to deal with any of that. But, for now, we'll see you down the trail.

01:12:56:14 - 01:12:59:01
Sarah Kathryn Ruder
All right. Sounds good. Thanks for having us.

01:12:59:03 - 01:13:00:21
Mark Titus
Thank you.

01:13:00:23 - 01:13:32:06
Music
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?
How do you say what you love?

01:13:32:08 - 01:13:56:07
Mark Titus
Thank you for listening to Save What You Love. If you like what you're hearing, you can help keep these conversations coming your way by giving us a rating on whatever platform you're listening from and leaving a comment on Apple Podcasts. It really helps get the word out. Check out photos on our Instagram feed. We're at Save What You Love podcast, and you can get links from today's featured guest in the show notes of this episode.

01:13:56:09 - 01:14:25:05
Mark Titus
Join our growing community by subscribing to our newsletter at evaswild.com, and then clicking on connect in the upper corner. You'll get exclusive offers on wild salmon shipped to your door, and notifications about upcoming guests and more great content on the way. That said, Evaswild.com the word save spelled backwards, wild.com. This episode was produced by Emilie Firn and edited by Patrick Troll.

01:14:25:07 - 01:14:31:04
Mark Titus
Original music was created by Whiskey Class. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you all down the trail.