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Welcome to Birth, Baby!, your go-to podcast hosted by Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly, seasoned birth doulas and childbirth educators from Austin, Texas. Join us as we navigate the intricate journey of pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum care, offering invaluable insights and expert advice. Through candid interviews, personal anecdotes, and evidence-backed content, we aim to empower families with the knowledge they need to make informed decisions. Whether you're seeking guidance on prenatal care, birth planning, or navigating the early days with your newborn, we've got you covered. Tune in to Birth, Baby! and embark on your parenthood journey with confidence.
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Come out and meet local doulas, check out their booths, and learn more about a variety of topics surrounding pregnancy.
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See you there.
Welcome, this is Birth, Baby.
Your hosts are Ciarra Morgan and Samantha Kelly.
Ciarra is a birth doula, hypnobirthing educator, and pediatric sleep consultant.
Samantha is a birth doula, childbirth educator, and lactation counselor.
Join us as we guide you through your options for your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey.
Today, we are back with Ashley and Chase to talk about part two of their birth story and all about how postpartum went for them.
So thank y'all for being back on again today.
Let's go ahead and dive in.
So after your sweet boy was born, what was postpartum like for you?
When we got home from the hospital, things were going really great.
My parents, as we talked about in the first part, they had come into town to help us out.
And so it was awesome.
We were really excited to have Rain home and show him his home and introduce him to our animals, his pets.
And we kinda just got into the swing of things.
And I was feeling really good.
I feel like I was on a high.
I felt I have Rain I've been waiting for for all those months to arrive and all the things that we had prepped for.
And so my parents had actually planned for staying for about three weeks, but then, and they had planned that not knowing how things were going to go and how much help we would need, but I'm very organized and I'm a type personality, and so is Chase.
And so we pretty much had it down after like a week and we felt good.
And so my parents were like, you know what, we're going to get out of your hair and let you guys just have some alone time.
And so they ended up rebooking their flight to co-home earlier.
And after they left, I would say it was only maybe like a week later.
And I felt like my mood and my anxiety and it just like bottomed out.
And I just, I started really stressing out about everything.
And I was not coping very well.
And it was, and Sam, you can attest, like when you came for the postpartum visit, you even said, you're like, oh, you're doing so well.
You look like you're doing so well.
You look good, like I had had a shower, actually.
I even like baked cookies in the first week.
I was on top of it.
And then, like I said, it just, I felt like it was like out of nowhere.
And I really did feel like, like I didn't remember saying to Chase, I'm like, oh my goodness.
Like I didn't get postpartum like depression or anxiety because that was a big worry of ours because I'm not sure if we went into detail and when we talked in part one, but I was diagnosed with anxiety at a young age, generalized anxiety.
And so I knew that I was at a higher percentage of actually, you know, having postpartum depression or anxiety.
And so that's why I had prepped so much for the birth and trying to research and find out everything I could do to try to prevent or minimize a postpartum depression or anxiety.
And so when it happened, I was just, it just kind of took the breath from me because I was just, I then got angry because I was like, you know, everything I did and I still am suffering.
So I thought you were in the clear.
I did, I did, I was like, I thought, I didn't realize until we ended up calling, I think it was Ciarra when I was like, Chase called because he's like, I don't know what to do.
And we thought, and Sarah was like, oh no, postpartum can show up within the first year.
So it was actually, I just went actually back to my text messages and Rain was born in July and it was August 12th that Chase reached out to me.
And was like, hey, we did reach out to a therapist, but I would really love it if you could please call and talk to Ashley, because they can't talk to her yet.
And I loved that he trusted me enough to reach out and that you guys had somebody that you could talk to.
But of course, I'm not qualified, but I can be there for you.
But I was just so worried because I knew how disheartened you were from, you just so badly just did not want this to be your story.
Exactly.
And I think that just compounded it.
And it was, I think it in because of my history, it just, it wasn't so like we were saying, Ciarra, you had suggested a postpartum therapist I could reach out to, which I did.
And I found out through that, that taking a quiz, like, well, not a quiz, but like she had questions and I had to answer them and read on a scale of one to five, I believe for each question.
And that actually depicts whether or not you have postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety because they are different.
And so it was determined that I had the anxiety, which again, did not surprise me just because of my history.
But what it was is just everything I was so afraid, because of my perfectionism, I was so afraid to do something wrong.
And one of the things that as a first time mom, you don't have any experience.
And so I just in life in general, how I prepare for anything is I research and I do my homework and I was reading all the books.
And so what was happening was I, when rain wasn't fitting into the box that I had created in my mind of, well, this is how he's supposed to act and this is how he's supposed to be, I didn't know what to do.
And I was falling apart and I was just not able to relax and just listen to my baby and trust my instincts.
And so it was hard and Chase, he was trying to be understanding, but at a certain point, he's getting frustrated because he's trying to help, but I'm not allowing him to help because I want him to control everything.
And one of the things that I always tell people in classes, and you guys did these classes with me, is moms, you've never been wife or partner to a new dad.
Dads, you've never been husband or partner to a new mom.
And y'all have never been a mom or a dad before.
So there's a whole lot of new moving parts here.
So that's exactly what you were experiencing.
And Chase, I'm sure that that was really hard.
What was that like from your perspective?
It was difficult.
As Ashley said, that we did really well for about four weeks.
And then I just noticed that like, by Rain's change table, we had this thing that would track his bathrooms and how much milk and how much sleep and all this tracking that we were doing.
And because it's important to do, you need to make sure that your kid is doing what he needs to do and getting what he needs.
But I could see, because Rain was small or is small still, but like they were concerned about that.
And they were like, you need to do triple feeding.
You need to make sure that he's getting his calories, that he's getting this and he's small, he's small, he's small.
And all this stuff is being thrown at us, making us feel like something's wrong with our child.
And I think that definitely did not help the situation.
And I could just see Ashley's mind just spinning always.
She was counting in her mind.
Well, he had four ounces here, he had four ounces here, that's eight.
And then he had only about two.
And I'm guessing here because he was on the breast because we're doing triple feeding and some bottle, and she was just spinning in circles.
And she wasn't sleeping because we have a new baby, but also because of this anxiety that was coming on her.
And I was trying to tell her, he's okay, he's not emaciated, he looks fine, he's acting normal, he's not crying.
I literally asked the nurse in the hospital, and I don't mean this to be insensitive, but I was like, is there any concern that our child is a mute because he doesn't cry?
And she was like, no, I think he's just chilling.
I remember you were like, Ciarra, he's like real chill.
Like, yeah, he's really calm.
I remember that was the top of conversation in the first two hours of his life.
Yeah, and he's calm, and I think that if something were wrong five weeks out, he would be screaming and crying and trying to communicate to us that like, something's wrong here.
I'm not getting what I need.
But anyways, like Ashley was getting very anxious about that and, you know, anxious about the temperature in the house.
You know, it needed to be 68 degrees Fahrenheit or else we might have a case of SIDS.
And I was like, well, I don't know if it needs to be 68.
Like it's the middle of summer and I have a winter jacket on.
He's probably a little cold and we can't put a blanket on him in his crib.
But you know, I'm making light of it now, but it was all this anxiety coming on her and it was something that we were concerned would happen.
And then once we addressed it, I think then she had the sense of I failed.
I did all this work to lead up to Birth.
I think, you know, she shed all this weight.
She got in really good shape and she prepared her body as best as she could to carry a baby.
We did the hypno-birthing class.
She performed a beautiful birth.
And then, and everything was going just the way we wanted it, just by the book.
And then she starts having anxiety and she feels like I have failed.
I'm a failure.
I have failed.
And then so that is being put on her.
I get, you know, I really try to be supportive of her.
And I got impatient and I got upset because she's upset.
And I was just like, we have this child.
I don't understand why you're upset.
Like everything's good.
Like, and I got frustrated.
And that definitely didn't help anything.
It was a bit of a tornado.
I remember that because it was before the therapy appointment.
So I was kind of the interim therapist.
And I'm on the phone with both of you.
And I'm trying to acknowledge like both of you are right.
Like both of you, you know, it's okay, Ashley, that you're feeling this way.
And I could even commiserate with you a little bit because I was the same way with pounces and everything.
And I had anxiety around sleep.
So I would be sitting there counting, how much sleep did he get?
When is he gonna wake up next?
And it was around my sleep.
But I remember one of the things that really sticks out to me was you were so tired, Ashley.
And Chase was like, I keep telling her to go sleep.
Like I will take care of the baby.
She can feed him and then she can hand him to me.
And then I will let her sleep.
And you were like, but I have things I need to get done for my checklist.
And he's like, you don't need to do them.
And so I understood from your perspective, I need to check my boxes.
I need to do that before I can let my mind settle.
And he's like, yeah, but you can't even function if you don't sleep.
So it was this catch 22 and this running and chasing our tails to try to fix the problem where it really couldn't logically be fixed.
It needed therapy and potentially medication to kind of help balance things out because there was really no reasoning with it.
And none of this made either of you bad parents.
And I think that that was actually something that you were really struggling with, like feeling like, well, I must be a bad mom.
Is that right?
Is that kind of where your brain was going?
Yeah, I did.
I felt like I was failing and I didn't, it was just, I felt like I was going in circles and I just felt that I was just treading water, trying to stay above, and Chase is right.
And then I felt even worse because I'm like, it's not that I'm not happy.
I was, in one way, I'm the happiest I've ever been because I have this beautiful child and I'm so excited to be a mom, but then I'm feeling all this anxiety and it's torturing me and I can't relax and I'm just wound up like a Energizer bunny and I'm not sleeping because I feel like I have to get all this stuff done and just everything you just said.
And it was just, I think once I reached out and asked for help, and that was the thing is that I, throughout my life, I am not somebody that won't ask for help.
So it wasn't that I didn't want to ask for help.
I just, it took me, I think, a minute to realize how deep I was in the postpartum anxiety to stop and say, okay, like I need some help.
And so I reached out and you gave me that therapist's name and I started seeing her.
And through that, that was very helpful because it gave me an outlet to express myself without any personal feelings being involved.
Cause it was very difficult to do with Chase because you know, as much as he's-
It was almost like you felt attacked.
Like even though you're like, I know he's my partner and I know he's my teammate, but I kind of feel like I'm being attacked here.
And he was like, I'm not trying to attack you, but something's really not right.
And we've got to get to the bottom of it.
And I don't know how to say that with grace and love as much right now.
Right, exactly.
And I think what it was.
And so I used to be on before I got pregnant at the beginning of 2020, when we decided we want us to start trying for a baby.
I had been on in antidepressant, which they also use to treat anxiety, generalized anxiety.
And so I had been on a small dosage for many years.
It had been like 14 years.
And I had decided, I had done enough self treatment in the sense of, I had coping skills that I had learned over the years, and seen therapists.
And so I kind of felt like I was equipped to come off medication, because the medication I was on, there's certain ones that doctors recommend that you can be on, but the one I was on, if you had to be on it, again, we could go into a whole other podcast about research into how these medications affect pregnancy and not, and what are the pros, and because obviously you can't be suffering, but you also don't want to hurt your baby.
But anyways, I had just decided I was just gonna come off of it and I was gonna do this on my own, because I didn't want to get pregnant being on that medication.
And I did, and I was so proud of myself.
And so basically what I had to do is replace that, because it's a chemical imbalance, replace that chemical naturally that I was missing from the medication, which takes a lot of work.
I had to be exercising, I had to be doing certain meditating and keeping on a very strict routine, getting the right amount of sleep.
All of those things work together to help create the chemical I needed.
And so it was great.
But then I have a baby and I can't do any of that stuff anymore.
In the sense like I'm not on the regular, like I'm not getting up to do yoga.
I'm not going for a run.
I'm not doing my meditation.
Like 24 seven, I'm taking care of my baby.
Or should you have been at four weeks postpartum?
Your body wouldn't have even been ready for that anyway.
Exactly.
And so I don't know why I just didn't think, like I should have realized that that was gonna happen, but I guess with me not doing all of those things, that chemical was not being replaced in my brain.
And so of course I start and I'm not getting the right amount of sleep and I'm not eating on a regular intervals.
And so I guess after therapy, as I started therapy, I was like, all right, because I can't do any of those things and as much as, and I tried for a little while just to do it on my own, but it wasn't getting any better.
And so I just made the decision to go to my doctor.
And she had told me at my six week appointment, because at that point, I had already started suffering.
And she had said, like, Ashley, I can prescribe a medication that's safe for you to take while you're breastfeeding.
But I was, again, I was still stuck in that mindset that if I took it, that somehow I failed, which-
It's like you're juggling, right?
Like we have all of these balls that you're juggling up in the air and then you have a baby and we're throwing in, oh, but you have to heal and you have to take care of this tiny human and you have to learn how to breastfeed and, oh, your tiny human has some feeding issues.
So we're also worrying about that.
And, oh, you can't exercise.
You can't do these things.
And you have to learn how to juggle all of these things.
And it's just not reasonable at every step of the way to be able to do all of that.
And so taking those steps to give yourself the grace and do what you need to do to be a healthy and happy mom and wife and friend and just human being is so important.
Yeah.
What ended up happening is I realized that I needed to swallow my pride and to stop thinking of it as a failure.
And it wasn't fair to myself nor Reign or Chase to be living in this atmosphere where I was so anxious and stressed and not able to relax and enjoy our new family.
And I just said, you know what, this is not right.
And I need to just take the medication.
It doesn't have to be forever.
Obviously, I proved that to myself before.
And also it still irks me that there's such the stigma around mental health and I'm always an advocate for people in mental health and saying that we don't need to be ashamed of it.
But then when it's yourself, somehow I throw out all that advice I give to other people.
I think it all kind of, I remember my mom was in town and it all kind of came to a head when my mom was here.
And Ashley and me were being combative.
Me and my mom were being combative.
Ashley and my mom were being combative.
And it was just like, it all kind of came to, and meanwhile, there's a baby that's just like chilling.
And it all came to a head.
And like my mom and Ashley, it is frightening how similar they are.
And then to see them being combative to one another, I was like, this is wild.
Like they have the same interests.
I know that they say like you tend to find a spouse similar to what you're used to with like parents, in most, in some cases.
It's frightening how similar they are.
And then my mom like sat Ashley down and talked to her.
And my mom studied, what was it?
She studied in school, like psychology or psychology in school.
So she has minimal training, you know, and she like sat Ashley down and talked to her.
And I think it was good advice that she was offering.
But also my mom's hysterical, and she's like, I'm going to leave.
I'm going to go back home.
And but anyways, we all three sat down and like put everything out on the table.
And I think that was a really good talk to have.
And it seemed like for everything to come to a head, that it all kind of calmed down after that conversation.
And it wasn't too long after that, that Ashley, she made her own decision to take care of the issues that she was having.
And I know that there was a really rocky point in there, where she was struggling with postpartum.
But I think the way that she handled it was awesome.
And she assessed the situation and then she addressed it.
And she took care of it and honestly never looked back.
She was disappointed that she had to get back on some medication.
But we had the conversation that this doesn't have to be a permanent thing.
You can always change.
You can always wean yourself off.
But right now, it's needed.
And so that's what she's done.
And she handled it just like she handled every other stage of pregnancy and like handled it really well.
She showed yet again that she's a human being.
And I don't know, it kind of got rocky there for a minute, but it's all good.
And Rain's still like, I don't think he noticed.
He was mostly in his crib sleeping while all that was happening.
And he never felt that stress.
And that was part of our conversation that we had had.
We did all this work leading up to him being here, and to bring him into a peaceful earth in the most peaceful way possible.
Why would we want to destroy that right now or even disrupt that right now?
And so we made an effort for him not to see any of that, or hear any of it, but he didn't, and he's still just hanging out.
How do you feel that everything is gone now that he's over a year old?
How do you feel that everything has been going now that you're this far out from it, Ashley?
I feel great.
After I went on the medication, and I continued therapy for a couple of months, and then me and the therapist decided at a certain point that I was at a good spot, and that I always had her number if I needed to call her and set up another session.
But yeah, I feel like this last year, other than what we just spoke about, it was only for a couple of months where I was really suffering.
It's been really great, and I feel like I was able just to level out so that I can actually look at things more clearly and not from an anxiety-ridden state.
Because when you're in that state, there's no reasoning.
Your reasoning really goes out the window, and logic doesn't feel real.
And I'm glad I did what I did, and I have no regrets because I feel so much better now.
And we plan on having more children, and now that I feel a little bit more, maybe I was being a little bit naïve, and so now I am more prepared for future postpartum, and I know what I will do to deal with it, so that way I don't suffer, because it's just like any illness, physical, if you don't feel well, you do what you have to do to feel better.
You go to the doctors, and you find out what you have to do to feel better, and mental illness is no different.
And Rain, everyone tells us all the time how happy he is, and he's such a happy baby, and that's all I want.
I want him to have a childhood where he has little to worry.
About, and I'm so glad that we are where we are today.
Absolutely.
Postpartum mood disorders can be part of your story without defining your entire story.
It was just a bump along the road, and you have a beautiful little boy now, and you had a beautiful pregnancy and a beautiful birth.
So do you have any advice that you would share with other parents who are going through something similar?
I do.
I think, and I have been sharing, we've had some friends that have had babies since Reign.
And I always tell the father figure, like, be aware of postpartum is very real.
And I think it's real for both.
I don't think it's just the female that goes through stuff.
You know, granted, I didn't birth a child, but I was still had anxiety.
And, you know, and I also have anxiety, and I'm very particular and to a fault at times.
But, you know, having Reign has taught me a lot of patience.
And has taught me, like, I need to be more patient with Ashley and be more patient with Reign.
And, like, not, like, things aren't as big as they seem.
You know, it's like, the only thing that matters is their health and safety.
And, like, so that's what I keep telling my friends is, like, be aware of postpartum, but also, guys, that is directed at you too.
Like, you need to take care of yourself and have some of your time, and, like, your needs are also important.
But I think that, and someone told me this before Rain came, like, just know that, like, Ashley's there for Rain, and while you are too, but you're the support for her because you're not able to breastfeed.
There is certain things that you cannot do.
And to combat that, because we were triple feeding with Rain, I would make sure to give him a bottle so that I could have that time with him and also give Ashley a break.
But I think I would just say, like, be aware of postpartum.
It's real, and it can be kind of nasty.
But you can also get around it and address it.
Yeah, I love my advice.
Go ahead, Ashley, please.
I think I agree with what Chase is saying.
And I think my advice as well is for women that, you know, it's okay.
Like, postpartum is not your fault.
It's nobody's fault.
It's just something that can happen.
And if it does happen, then you just do what you have to do to feel better.
And, you know, if that means doing some therapy or having to go on some medication, it's not a failure.
You are still a good mom.
You're still a good partner.
You just need to take care of yourself as well, because you can't take care of your baby the best that you can if you aren't taking care of yourself.
And also, I think that with all the information we have out there now, which I am glad that we have access to a lot of information, but sometimes you could go overboard with it and you start to because there's so much out there.
And a lot of it, yes, it's based in research, but a lot of it's opinions.
And I think that you have to try to sort through that.
And you need to sometimes just put the book away and look at your baby and look at the situation and trust your instincts.
Like, you know, I believe that God gives us instincts for a reason, and he trusts us to trust those.
And, you know, you'll know when something's really wrong.
And you doing that, I feel helped me.
I finally just said, I got to put the books away.
And, you know, if there's something I really need to know, then I will go look.
But just try to, you know, I'm a smart person.
Yeah, we start to kind of trust the statistics more than our gut.
One thing somebody said to me once that I just thought was really eye-opening is, you know, what if somebody had diabetes?
Would you sit there and say, oh, you don't need to exercise.
You don't need to eat certain way.
You don't need insulin.
Like, it's fine.
Just deal with it.
You know, just deal with it.
Well, that's what people do about mental health.
But there's no, you know, little finger prick that you can do to say what the serotonin levels are in your brain or anything like that.
So it's not as easy to see that something is going on.
And it is just as serious as diabetes.
It, you know, the diet change of diabetes is like the therapy and the insulin is like the medication.
And sometimes you need both and sometimes you need one.
And they work really well in combo.
So just not treating it like it's some arbitrary lala thing out there and it is real and it's an equal opportunity jerk.
And you could have zero risk factors and still end up with postpartum depression or anxiety or rage or psychosis or any of those things.
So I'm just so thankful to you guys for being vulnerable enough and brave enough to share your story, because I think this could be one of the most important episodes that we've done and having people that have gone through it that are willing to share it is invaluable.
And I just, I really thank you for being here to do that.
Thank you guys.
We thank you for having us.
Thank you all so much.
Thank you for joining us on Birth, Baby!
Thanks again to Longing for Orpheus for our music.
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