Red Seas Under Red Skies Part 3 - Scott Lynch - High Fantasy Book - Heist Book

In this episode of the Side Quest Book Club Podcast, we delve into the chaotic world of 'Red Seas Under Red Skies,' exploring themes of loyalty, deception, and the complexities of pirate life. Covering up to chapter 11, we discuss the challenges faced by Locke and Jean as they navigate mutiny, the dynamics of Zamira's crew, and the moral dilemmas that arise in their quest for survival. The conversation highlights character development, the influence of the Crooked Warden, and the evolving relationship between the protagonists as they adapt to their new circumstances.

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(00:00) Setting Sail into Chaos
(01:08) Mutiny and Misfortune
(03:02) The Pirate's Dance of Deception
(06:40) Zamira's Crew: Loyalty and Chaos
(09:15) Prisoners of the Poison Orchid
(11:34) Secrets and Lies Unraveled
(18:47) Scrub Watch: A New Beginning
(20:17) The Weight of Loyalty
(25:54) The Crooked Warden's Influence
(32:22) Adaptability and Compassion
(38:49) Testing Loyalties
(41:48) The Ritual of Acceptance

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

Jonathan (00:00)
That's a ship name.

Slava (00:01)
Littlef

Jonathan (00:02)
That's the ship name.

You

Slava (00:05)
So you and I are captains. am the captain of the naked dance and you're the captain of little.

Jonathan (00:11)
It's like Little Rascals, but set in the world of the Lysoloclamora.

Slava (00:16)
And all you have is cats. You have no crew at all. You just have...

Jonathan (00:19)
No, no, no, I'm not, look, we both know I'm not, I'm way lazier than that. So, definitely gonna have some crew. Preferably you gonna them little ****? Yes.

Slava (00:29)
Jonathan and little ****. There's a lot of bleeps in this episode, wow.

Jonathan (00:33)
It's like the Little Rascals.

Slava (00:35)
coming to you from the endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Podcast.

Jonathan (00:47)
When the common finally hit the open sea, will they sink or swindle? Welcome back to SideQuest. are on part three of Red Sea's Unread Skies, where we're gonna find out what happens when Locke Lamora, who can barely swim, becomes a pirate. Let's get into chapter eight. Slava, take it away.

Slava (01:08)
Radio, Chapter 8. Locke and John weather a brutal storm aboard the Red Messenger after Caldris untimely at painful death, barely keeping the ship afloat. Five men die in the chaos. Locke tries to rally the crew, giving a sendoff as a priest of the Crooked Warden. But the crew, already shaken by the lack of cats,

and Caldris's death sees this as heresy and bad luck. Jibril, suspecting Locke's inexperience, publicly charges him and exposes the missing cats. The next morning, as predicted, mutiny breaks out. Locke tells Jean to drag him out and play along to persevere, or preserve, their mission. Surrounded by armed sailors,

Jonathan (01:42)
Bad omen.

Slava (02:06)
Locke confesses he isn't a sea captain but claims to be an intelligence officer fleeing the Arkhan service. He argues he saved them from prison and deserves more than execution. Jabril agrees, barely, and sentences Locke and Jon to the lifeboat without oars, leaving their faith to the sea and the god Iono. Jon refuses to leave Locke's side. Adrift,

They watch the Red Messenger get seized by pirates mere minutes before Locke had hoped to make contact. As the pirate ship approaches, Locke, as always, sees an opportunity. They are rescued but only after being humiliated, stripped naked and made to dance on one leg and dunked overboard. The pirate lieutenant, Esri Del Mastro, eventually pulls them aboard.

They are brought before Captain Zamira, a striking woman with dark skin, braided hair, and ornate, elderglass vest. She immediately doubts Locke's fake identity and orders both men clothed and thrown into the ship's prison cells. Dun dun dun.

Jonathan (03:22)
Yeah. When you read about the mutiny after you took the fact that it was happening, probably with enjoyment, what did you think was going to happen? They're put out to sea. And then what? How did you think they were going to get out of it?

Slava (03:35)
I thought a pirate ship would come. You did not. rescue them. Yes, I did. I did not think they were going to be cast onto an island and then they would have to survive on talking to volleyballs and making coconut friends or eating bugs. I knew somebody would pick them up. Did I think the Red Messenger was going to get seized by pirates in front of them? No, not at all. Did I think they were going to be out there for a couple of days losing their minds? Yes.

Jonathan (03:40)
Who did not?

Slava (04:03)
that I think that somebody was gonna come and rescue them? Also, yes.

Jonathan (04:07)
Okay. But it wasn't pirate specifically because it could have been a merchant ship that they try and take over. It could have been a bunch of things.

Slava (04:13)
It could have been. I had a leaning towards pirates because they're in pirate waters now, but I didn't think it was going to happen that quickly. And I didn't think anything was going to happen to the red messenger right then and there. I thought that those guys would go sailing away. ⁓ Maybe they'd come back in a story. Maybe not. But I thought the fate of Locke and John hung in the balance, obviously, because we don't know where they're going.

I figured they'd be rescued by somebody. And in my mind, it was probably pirates. Okay. And then they would have to play their game with the new pirates, whatever story Locke made up about the Archon, about them being at sea. He would have to do another scheme, another heist, another smoke and mirror show for a different set of pirates.

Jonathan (05:04)
Okay, fair enough. Did you like the way that Lynch played this out?

Slava (05:08)
I felt it was kind of fast, but I didn't hate it. And maybe it was cut for time and Lynch had to put this rescue device literally and figuratively in right away. So it worked out. It's fine, but kind of happened too fast in my mind.

Jonathan (05:26)
not enough tension and questioning for you. ⁓

Slava (05:28)
Right.

thought they could have been adrift at sea for a day or two fraught with worry about the poison and how they're going to get back to their heist with Requin, how they're going to do what Stragas has instructed them to do. I thought they were going to be maybe more tension between the two of them, maybe more bonding between the two of them. Maybe they would in their minds, I go, okay, we're just dying out here. And they say their last, you know, pieces to each other. And then they get.

rescued. I thought that would happen, but it didn't and we got to see them dance naked and all the other stuff.

Jonathan (06:06)
Fair enough, the naked dance. Every pirate's ritual for coming on board.

Slava (06:12)
That's a good ship name, the Naked Dance.

Jonathan (06:14)
That is not a good ship name.

Slava (06:16)
You don't know anything about Schirsten.

Jonathan (06:18)
I know everything about ships. learned that last episode. You don't know the bow from the stern or the larboard from the starboard.

Slava (06:25)
Well, I might not know those things, but I do know a good ship name when I see one.

Jonathan (06:30)
No, nope, that's not true. Not true at all.

Slava (06:35)
Well, now I'm not letting you onboard my new ship that I just bought, named the Naked Dance.

Jonathan (06:40)
Yes, of course. Did you have any thoughts regarding Zemura's crew being chaotic, flawed, and but fiercely loyal in contrast with the gentlemen bastards?

Slava (06:50)
that's a really good question. I didn't think about it until you just said it. There is overlap there. Zamira is respected by her crew. She has a loyal second in command. The crew respect both of them. There's kids on board. The kids are taken care of. They're well looked after and they seem to be a well bonded team. So there's definitely connections to.

what Locke and Jean had with the Jellon Bastards under the tutelage of Father Chains. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. I didn't even think about it, but hell yeah, yeah.

Jonathan (07:29)
I think it adds a layer of warmth to the lives that they've been dragged through, albeit by their own choice. They could have taken a quiet life after what took place.

Slava (07:45)
Well, they need the money. It's always the problem.

Jonathan (07:49)
one more job and then we're calling it quits for good.

Slava (07:52)
I wish I could live a quiet life, but I need money, so I do what I do.

Jonathan (07:56)
and grift high stakes politicians and gambling den overlords. I actually, it's not terribly far off from what you do for work. But anyway. Then I'm not talking about his wife.

Slava (08:02)
in so many words.

Jonathan (08:15)
⁓ It's called a non sequitur. It's funny lava

Slava (08:16)
How was that?

No, I get it. It's an anti-joke. See, I am grown on you.

Jonathan (08:22)
There you go, ⁓

it's more like a lesion, but that's fine.

Slava (08:28)
Well, now I'm stuck with you. Now you're saying the jokes that are out of pocket.

Jonathan (08:32)
out of ⁓

Slava (08:37)
You know, I saw a funny meme of that phrase and it's this boomer who's talking to a bunch of Gen Z's and saying like how she was out of pocket this weekend. And the Gen Z's are like, well, what would happen? Tell us the tea. What's the drama? She's like, oh no, I was just out of pocket all weekend. They're like, yeah, no, we get it. What happened? Like, what did you do? She's like, oh, nothing. just sat at home and turned off my phone. I was out of pocket. It's like, wait, what do you think out of pocket means?

Jonathan (09:07)
Yes.

Slava (09:08)
It made me chuckle.

Jonathan (09:10)
It sounds like it. It sounds like it. Let's carry on, Slava.

Slava (09:15)
Let's do it. Chapter 9. After an hour locked in the cramped cells, Esri returns with eight armed pirates to escort Locke and Jeanne to Captains Amira. Both are manacled. Have you ever been manacled, Jonathan?

Jonathan (09:33)
I don't know what we were going to talk about today, but no. I have been in a prison cell before, but not for the reasons that you would think.

Slava (09:37)
Okay. Same.

Nazi.

Jonathan (09:46)
Yes. I used to have a Houdini kick. So one of the reasons I actually love this genre and character style as I was growing up in school, you have to do book reports, right? You you pick a topic, you do a study, whatever. We know it's super apparent. So I picked Houdini because I liked magic. He's also a Jew. He ran away to the circus, sounded like fun. What I did.

Slava (10:02)
I've never been to school.

Jonathan (10:15)
for first grade through, I want to say fourth or fifth grade, I did every book report on Houdini because the book reports got easier and easier because I already knew everything. And then I was told I wasn't allowed to do that anymore. But I picked up magic and lockpicking, things of that nature because he was one of my first heroes, if you will, that was like a real person and not a cartoon.

Slava (10:35)
And that brings you to a jail cell how.

Jonathan (10:38)
⁓ put myself in to try to lock myself, to get myself out. I was younger.

Slava (10:43)
How long did you spend in that jail?

Jonathan (10:46)
It was on vacation, so was, you know, 20 minutes. Not, it was nothing. That's why I said not for the reason that you might think.

Slava (10:50)
okay.

Okay. Cool story, bro.

Jonathan (10:56)
Slav actually got put in there as like a drunk tank, but it's no commentary. Okay, cool. Sorry, we don't have to talk about that.

Slava (11:00)
Moving on.

Inside Zemira's office, she's playing with her daughter, Cassetta, teaching her about ships and masts and swords. If only I had a mother like Zemira, I would know Starbird from Larbored. Once the child leaves, Esri Zemira interrogate Locke. She presses him about his fake identities and claims to have worked for the Priory. She pokes holes in his story. How could an intelligence

Jonathan (11:16)
That's true.

Slava (11:34)
officer not know about her or the bounty on her head. Locke improvises, claiming his work was mostly city-bound. When Zemira threatens Jean's life to test Locke's loyalty, his reaction confirms their bond. She laughs, satisfied, and has both men locked up with the rest of the Red Messenger's captured crew.

Jonathan (12:02)
classic.

Slava (12:04)
Later Zamira addresses the full prisoner crew. She tells them they failed as pirates but have a chance to earn a real place aboard her ship, the Poison Orchid. They serve as scrub watch, the lowest of the low. They'll obey everyone, eat last, and only earn their place by proving themselves in battle and during raids. If they survive boarding another ship,

they'll earn full shares and a spot among her crew. Locke and Jean are reinstated as scrub watch, frustrating some Red Messenger crew, but Esri reminds them, harm her captain's children and you die. The first task, first task, Jonathan.

Jonathan (12:56)
What's the first task?

Slava (12:58)
they have to raise the ship's massive anchor. That's it. That's the first task. they're now, what's the word for it? It's not an adventure, although it is.

Jonathan (13:00)
Yes.

You could say it's their first task.

Slava (13:16)
You could say that, but this first task, I'm trying to articulate what the first task is.

Jonathan (13:21)
got

that and I'm just trying to.

Slava (13:23)
No, I get it. you? So, John and Locke are, again, forced to start over in some way, right? Whatever the word for that is. Maybe that's the phrase that I can use. But they're forced to start over. They have to raise the ship's massive anchor. When finished, Ezra keeps Locke and John back to sweep the deck, explaining the extra punishment is meant to ease crew tensions. Below deck, the atmosphere is tense. Some men...

begins softening, remembering Locke freed them from prison. Jibril even saves them a spot near him, but others remain hostile, blaming Locke for their ordeal and his inefficiency as cat wrangler. They threaten him, but Jibril reminds them that violence aboard will bring swift death from the captain herself. So look at that, they're making friends again.

Jonathan (14:15)
Very true.

Well, I think that the crew is just happy that they have cats and women on board now so that they aren't cursed by Yono. So.

Slava (14:26)
I have cats and women in my ship. They're female cats.

Jonathan (14:30)
I don't think that you can double up. don't, Yono doesn't strike me as the kind of God who's, ⁓ who's like, ⁓ you don't have any women, but you have female cats. Okay. That's fine. You know, because part of his name is the grasping waters or sorry, his, his part of his authority and realm is the grasping waters. Doesn't strike me as a very compassionate or grace-filled God sending summer storms and

waves upon waves to their boats to sink them. ⁓ Flitwraiths. Yeah. I think you need both.

Slava (15:09)
So anything his deal is with cats.

Jonathan (15:11)
Well, it says it in the book that he likes the little **** because it says it in the book. That's what it says. Yeah, Cauldras says it. He literally tells us why Yono wants cats because I think Locke asks him, like, why cats when they're like busy training, right? And he's like, they're proud like him or so. He gives a reason. I don't remember what it is, but he does give a reason.

Slava (15:18)
Yes it does.

Here, I'll read it to you. I know the reason. I have books and stuff.

Jonathan (15:40)
okay.

Slava (15:42)
⁓ Why do you keep a kitten in that basket? The kitten, dissatisfied with Luck's arms, decided to wrap her paws around his neck and experiment on it with her claws. When you go to sea, are two necessities for luck. First, you're courting an awful fate if you take a ship to sea without at least one woman officer. It is the law of the Lord of the grasping waters, his mandate.

He's got a fixation for the daughters of the land. He'll smash any ship that puts to sea without at least one on board. Plus, it's plain common sense. They're good officers. Decent, plain sailors, but finer officers than you or I, just the way the gods made them. Second, it's powerful bad luck to put out without cats on board. Not only as they kill the rats, but as their

proud creatures anywhere wet or dry. Iono admires the little f***.

Jonathan (16:45)
Literally told you. That's what I said.

Slava (16:48)
Got a ship with women and cats aboard? You'll have the finest luck you can hope for. Maybe you actually get a little **** on my ship. Lynch told us. Yeah, I already did. I have female cats. One of them is a first mate. Does that count?

Jonathan (17:02)
It does not count. Yono is coming for you.

Slava (17:06)
Yes he is. Good thing I'm landlocked. Kind of.

Jonathan (17:11)
Did you do anything with that note that I sent you this week? If not, can try and pull up some stuff about like, Lynch and his... ⁓

Slava (17:19)
No, I did not do anything with the note you sent me. ⁓

Jonathan (17:23)
Keep going then. I'm gonna try and some stuff up.

Slava (17:26)
Alright, okay, keep going. ⁓

Jonathan (17:28)
That's a ship name. That's the ship name.

Slava (17:30)
Little fu-

So you and I are captains. I am the captain of the naked dance and you're the captain of little.

Jonathan (17:38)
It's like Little Rascals, but set in the world of the Lysoloclamora.

Slava (17:43)
And all you have is cats. You have no crew at all, you just have...

Jonathan (17:46)
No, no, no, I'm not, look, we both know I'm not, I'm way lazier than that. So, definitely gonna have some crew. Preferably Are you gonna them little ****? Yes.

Slava (17:56)
Jonathan and the little ****. There's a lot of bleeps in this episode, wow.

Jonathan (18:00)
It's like the Little Rascals. I have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.

Slava (18:18)
Well, I say we move on. Chapter 10. Jeanne is surprised by how disciplined and efficient life aboard the poison Orgid is. He flirts with Esri, who keeps her distance, reminding him he's still a scrub watch. She explains the ship runs smoothly because Captain Zamira, our respected ex-Navy, Cyroon, leads with trust. Jeanne begins to enjoy the routine.

but he and Locke are still racing the clock for their antidote. When a scrub watch member, Muzaka, attacks a crewman, Zamira breaks the officer's nose and throws Muzaka overboat for wielding a weapon. Later, Locke is summoned to Zamira's office after her kids accidentally activate his alchemical cement cards. He convinces her to let him keep them under Locke.

A ship appears. Scrubwatch are told to step up or be cast off at port. Locke and Jean volunteer first. Disguised as survivors, they board and fight Jermite Redeemers, fanatical religious warriors. Jean and Esri do most of the killing, but Locke shockingly dispatches several with brutal efficiency. The crew is impressed, but Locke is disturbed.

Afterward, Jon warns Locke not to betray the pirates to Straggus. Locke insists he'll do whatever it takes, but Jon refuses to help Locke if he turns on them and declares he won't live in his shadow, revealing some resentment and that Locke once lived with Savatha for nine years. ⁓

freaking times. But also I think because Locke kind of lives in the past, whether or not he brings up Sabbatha and John here likes the routine, likes his new life, whatever that may look like. Despite everything that's going on in the background, which is quickly overwhelming the front ground. He sees this and we see this actually be revealed later on. He sees this as an opportunity to calm down.

Jonathan (20:18)
That's true.

Slava (20:46)
thing, Jean's a little tired and he kind of likes Esri. Kind of. Well, he likes her a lot more later on, but right now he kind of likes her. Good little setup for what happens in the following chapters. We see that in different episodes of the story, we see Jean and Locke, their desire. We see their desire to sort of stop this life that they're living. It's constant, chaotic, whatever it is. Whatever it is they're in, it's chaotic.

Jonathan (20:49)
Kind of.

okay ⁓

Slava (21:16)
Okay, maybe this is because it's just the two of them. And now being part of a crew again, at least for Jaune, it gives them some sort of stability, some sort of peace. Yeah, so Jaune is pulling away from the previous life. And again, as I mentioned just a second ago, maybe it's because it's just him and Locke and there's no more team, but he's looking at the poison orchid and he sees a team that he can be a part of. And obviously liking Esri.

is an added bonus. Living in the past seems to be tiresome for Jean. That includes Sabbatha, Lox pining for her, and he also sees that, this is a new team. This is something that I can be a part of. I will not betray them to Straggus.

Jonathan (22:05)
Well, Jean realized quicker than Locke that pirates are thieves of the sea. And had to remind the priest of the Crooked Warden that these are their people. Because the Crooked Warden is the god of thieves, tricksters, liars, and secrets. This kind of goes into a decent side quest about the 12 gods of the Theron Pantheon to do a little world building for the audience. In this book, we've got Yono, the lord of the Grasping Waters, the god of sea.

In the last book we had Perilandro, who was the overlooked God of mercy and charity that Jean Locke and the gentlemen bastards were being trained in by Father Chains. You have Azaguala, the lady of the long silence, who is the goddess of death. You have Gondolo, the Lord of coin and commerce. He's the God of merchants and trade. Nara, who is the lady of the ubiquitous maladies, goddess of sickness and poison. Morganti.

The Lord of Noose and Trowel, the God of Law and Order. Callo Androno, the Eyes on the Crossroad, God of Travel, Language and Lore. Priva, Lady of the Red Madness, Goddess of Love, Madness and Inspiration. Venapurtha, the Lady of Two Faces, who is the Goddess of Luck. Dama Elisa, Mother of Rains and Reaping, the Goddess of Agriculture and Farming. Sendovani, the Goddess of Secrets, Mysteries, Knowledge and Alchemy.

And Osry, the God of nature, war, and weather. Finally, some of them believe in the Nameless Thirteenth. The Crooked Warden, the benefactor, the God of thieves. One whose whole purpose is to help thieves prosper. Locke is a priest of the Crooked Warden as we know, trained by Father Chains. And he is everything that the Crooked Warden is meant to embody, which is clever and defiant of authority.

He redistributes wealth often to himself, but we see this time and time again, more so in book two here, Red Seas Under Red Skies, where Locke is being merciful to other thieves as he's meant to be because he's a priest of the Crooked Warden. Even thieves who don't believe in the Crooked Warden, like the guy that we talked about a little while ago, who, and maybe that was that last episode actually, who's cutting off their...

ropes, it was last episode, cutting off their ropes and they were, they were merciful to him after he was going to kill them because he's a priest of the Nameless 13th. So having a full pantheon in your world adds to the belief in the world building. As I've said before, and I will say again, these layers validate that this is a real world. Side quest over.

Slava (24:53)
What I find interesting too is the nameless 13th. His name is not to be spoken, whatever that name may be. He goes by many titles, however. The Crooked Warden, The Benefactor, The Thief Watcher, The Father of Necessary Pretext, and again, there's only two commandments to be obeyed. Thieves prosper. They are to aid one another, hide one another, make peace where possible. We see Locke doing that.

and generally see to it that each other can flourish and prosper. see Jean doing that. By hook or by crook. The second mandate, the rich remember, it means the rich and powerful need to be reminded that they are not invincible and that they are mortal. Any lock might be picked, any treasure might be stolen. And that second mandate is to remind the rich and powerful of this fact. Simple yet rich.

world building.

So does this bring us to chapter 11, Jonathan? Or you got more theology for us?

Jonathan (25:59)
⁓ Theron theology. No, I believe that that will do it for now. I'm just thinking about, did we talk about the scrub watch in detail? So another great plot point that builds into the world where when you're captured, if Zemira keeps you alive, you have the opportunity to become scrub watch. Scrub watch is you serve on the ship as the scum of the earth.

until an inciting incident happens where you have an opportunity to become a real member of the ship. Well, one of those opportunities is pirating another ship. You just have to be first. So that Drakasha can keep her like well-trained crew alive by using you as fodder. But if you show yourself useful, then by all means, she will keep you. So Jean, Locke, everyone from the Red Messenger is thrust into Scrubwatch to start.

to make sure that they are both helping the ship be maintained, which is something that needs to be done. I believe that one of the sailors talks about, it might be Esri where she talks about like everyone needs to chip in to take care of the ship because otherwise it just festers and everyone will die because the ship is not being maintained. Having a scrub watch is actually quite useful for captains because they have these.

you know, low level workers who can just help out here and there, both in keeping watch and maintaining the ship. It is more mouths to feed, but it seems to do the job. Do you know Slava, is scrub watch a real thing in pirate culture?

Slava (27:41)
I don't think the term scrub watch is a real thing in the real world, but there are on duty watches for any ship. And I assume it would be the same for pirate ships. I think the people who clean the decks, people who take care of all the refuse, who clean up after the other pirates, maybe clean up the food, whatever that's called in the real world, I think that exists.

But I don't think the term itself is a term that's taken from real pirate legend or pirate stories or pirate history for that matter. I think just the people who maintain the ship, the janitors of the ship, and I think those exist in the real world.

Jonathan (28:20)
Okay, fair.

They, Janitors exist in the real world. They are not fake fantasy world building lore. Much to your dismay.

Slava (28:38)
the ones who swab the deck. Maybe we can call them swabbies. I think we can. I'm calling mine swabbies.

Jonathan (28:43)
Nope. Nope, nope, nope.

I can't mind something else.

Slava (28:50)
Grubbies?

Jonathan (28:52)
No, the name of my boat. little. There it is. ⁓ man. So with Lacanjean, do you feel like they are growing in compassion or they're just adaptable? Right. The details of what they're going through right now is that they are thrust into something that they wasn't their choosing, but.

Slava (28:54)
Okay.

Jonathan (29:19)
As we spoke about a little earlier, Jean is aware that they are not just doing their job and trying to survive because they have a poison that they need an antidote for, but rather these are their people, right? So I guess put simply, do Lac and Jean still have a moral compass or are they just adaptable in both strength and weakness?

Slava (29:43)
Good question. I think they're adaptable no matter what. We saw that in book one. We're seeing it in book two. They're adaptable end of story period. What we do see in this book is them growing in compassion and them growing as characters. We see the death of their friends definitely change Locke. He's more compassionate and he is

bothered by unnecessary death now. And it is, objectively speaking, is unnecessary. The stupid duel, the guy who was forced to fight the wasps, pigeon wasps. you.

Jonathan (30:24)
Pigeon.

I know they're called something else, but I just like to think of them as dumb as pigeons, but you know, massive edge them as. Yes.

Slava (30:29)
Fusion wasp.

And angry as wasps.

So we see both Jean and Locke in their own special way as only each character can begin to understand the world around them a little bit better if I may be that bold. But in that, they grow in compassion and they realize, as I've said a few minutes ago, at least Jean does right here, that they need to be part of

a and whatever the previous life looked like, I'm not necessarily saying, just one more job. ⁓ that happens too. But the overarching theme of both of their responses here is compassion for others, kind of a DTR between the two of them.

Jonathan (31:23)
DTRs determine the relationship for those who are unfamiliar.

Slava (31:26)
And the need for something greater than just living from job to job. So maybe not necessarily fully committed to just one more job, but then we go and have a villa and buy our noble titles. Well, that's happening too. So there's these forces that are pushing them to realize there's more to this than just heists, but they are still.

followers of the crooked warden so that's never gonna stop but as they view the world through different eyes, I think they're Becoming softer in the good sense of that word for thieves and criminals. They're having a moment of clarity and For both John and Locke it looks a little different But yes to your original question before we take this off the rails. I take this off the rails. Yes

They are adaptable. That's always a thing. They're not just adapting when they become more compassionate, when law becomes more compassionate. It's not just a consequence of their adaptability where Jean says, no, we must stick with these pirates. can't sell them to Straggas. They're going to be adaptable whether they stay with the poison orchid or they never meet the poison orchid or they live in a villa with their bought titles and

whatever city they live in and live out their rest of their life there, they will always be adaptable because how they were trained.

Jonathan (32:57)
Yeah, I would say that the training definitely taught them to be adaptable. Something else that comes to mind before we move on in terms of themes is this idea of loyalty. We talked about it a little bit ago with Zamira's crew being deeply loyal. Jean and Locke also being deeply loyal themselves. But the tension that's going on between Jean and Locke in their relationship, kind of like what you're talking about. And then also like...

the loyalty that Jean is building for Esri. Loyalty itself is tested here. To put a little more pressure on that, we also see that the power dynamic shifted from book one to book two, where book one, they were in charge of their own power and they were fighting another power, which was the bonds mage and Barzavi. Whereas in this book, pretty much from the get go, the power imbalance

has existed at an extreme form. We talked about this a couple of episodes ago, but I don't think I had the level of thought for it yet where there's a clear power imbalance when they're poisoned because they want to survive and they have to do whatever they can to survive. But now they're at a ⁓ crossroads of moral quandary for their flavor of morality where they have to address, are they going to betray their own or are they going to stay true to the crooked warden in the midst of this?

where they're not in control at all because the villain has poisoned them and if they don't come back and do what he wants they will die.

Slava (34:30)
Yeah, there's, see, that's another thing I didn't think of until now that you mentioned it, the power imbalance. think that's an interesting point. Yeah, absolutely. They are fighting not necessarily equal powers, but they have power. They're not under anybody's thumb really. The bonds magic are doing their own thing, but even then there is more power that they possess in that book here.

Jonathan (34:41)
Book one to book two.

Slava (35:00)
They're starting over from scratch. There's only two of them. There's no longer a theme. Chains is long gone and the people that they were trained with by Chains, they're dead. Locke is having an existential something or other and he's depressed as hell. Jaune is trying to survive. He's the one who's thinking for them and working for both of them to make sure they have some money in the first city they're in and that... ⁓

I think is all part of the thing that catapults their growth in this book. And it's different, different types of growth. They grow closer together, they grow as ⁓ partners in crime, but individually, we see more of their characters revealed. And in that, in that reveal, Lynch also gives them in-world growth as characters.

Jonathan (35:57)
Yeah, it's true. Did you ever think through this reading that, because the book starts with us seeing a scene, and I know you asked about this before, that Jaune was going to betray Locke at any point. Not even the first scene, because you gave us your opinion on that a couple of episodes ago, but just in general where Jaune just finally gets fed up because frankly, Locke is pretty...

self-sabotaging and tries to get people to justify their hate for him, like their disdain, right?

Slava (36:29)
Yeah, no, I didn't. really honestly, you know, my word before the cricket warden, maybe listened to and judged righteous. I did not, did not think that. I knew in my heart of hearts that John would not betray Locke. Even when they were fighting, I did not, did not think that John was really betraying Locke in that moment or would ever during this book.

Jonathan (36:55)
Okay, fair enough. What would it take for you to believe something like that? Which I think is a different question. It is.

Slava (37:01)
That's

a good question. The best answer I have is it has to happen. Not some sort of set up where they're in middle of a fight and Jon does the obvious double blind where he's like, ha ha, yes, I'm gonna kill you, Locke, give me your crossbow, then he kills the other guys. That was just too obvious to me what Jon was doing. So it would have to be, if it's a foreshadow, let me put it this way.

If it's a foreshadowing of a betrayal, couldn't be that obvious, right? It couldn't be just a fight where Jaune is doing the best he can to get one up on their attackers. It would have to be maybe a more of a slower build where you see Jaune not acting like a friend like he does and telling Locke off, but slowly moving away from Locke, slowly distancing himself.

That would be a good foreshadowing for Jon being set up for a betrayal. Because that could be just Jon tired of Locke and them separating and going their own ways. But in response to your question, that would give me doubts. Then I'm like, oh, Jon's not screaming and bitching out Locke in the scene. He's kind of letting Locke do his thing, self-sabotage, as you called it. And Jon's kind of raising his hands going, all right, dude.

You do you. That would have given me pause.

Jonathan (38:33)
Hmm. Okay. Do you think that Lynch will continue to put pressure on the tension between Locke and Jean in future books to see if they'll, to see if they'll, if their loyalty will break?

Slava (38:44)
separate them.

I think there might be scenarios that Lynch puts them in where their loyalty is tested again. Now, why Locke thought that John betrayed him? I don't know, that's a foreshadowing for something else, meaning that Locke has some sort of doubts because of the self-sabotage, or that's just a thing that stands on its own, it's just Locke's complex, whatever that is.

and Locke has to work through it. There might be instances where Locke again doubts John's loyalty and John is exacerbated by it. If it's not in the next book that I read or the other three when they come out, great. I don't, I kind of don't care, right? But I don't think that their friendship breaks. I don't think that happens, but I could be wrong. Who knows?

Jonathan (39:41)
I mean, that's a true statement. Who does know? Because we only have three.

Slava (39:47)
Yeah, and their friendship doesn't break in this story, and I don't think it breaks in the next, because the ending of the story, holy crap, dude, they're bonded together even closer.

Jonathan (39:57)
Right. Well, that's why I brought the question up because it's like, do you think that the author is going to keep putting that pressure on to be like, can I make them break?

Slava (40:06)
No. The way it's worded, no. I don't think so. I can't say that I believe that. I can say what I tried to articulate in my own haphazard way just a few seconds ago. I think Lynch might put them into situations where their loyalty is tested. We see in this book, despite their tension, despite them fighting at times, they're both really quickly to defend the other or say no if

He's going in the boat, I'm going in the boat. So there's already a loyalty despite that tension and despite Locke being afraid that John is betraying him, which is again, I thought was silly. So I don't think there'll be something that breaks their friendship. It might be tested in a different way. This might be a setup. We see that they're, wow, even when they're fighting, they're very loyal to each other. And then in book three, book four, whatever.

There's something that's thrown into their lives and both of them don't know what's going on and their bond that are loyal to these tested. Sure, that could happen. I don't think their bond will break.

Jonathan (41:20)
At minimum, at least one of them survives till book seven, we would think.

Slava (41:24)
Yeah,

and I would venture to guess it's Locke if that happens. Because it starts with... He's the main character, no matter what.

Jonathan (41:33)
The Locke Lamora series and he kills off Locke after books. Well, you made it this far.

Slava (41:36)
Yeah. Okay.

Why not go a step further? It helps more than you think.

Jonathan (41:43)
Rate the show.

Alright, well bring us home with Chapter 11 here.

Slava (41:48)
Chapter 11. What do we have? We have Locke and the old crew, and they are tossed into the sea in a ritual to beg the gods and pledge loyalty to the poisoned orchid. Pulled out one by one, they are accepted as crew. Locke asks, what's next for the captured ship? Captain Zemira says she'll strip it and let the surviving crew go. Sending a message that surrender means mercy, encouraging future compliance.

Locke suggests a clever trick to locate the shipmaster's hidden purse without torture, which works. That night, bonding continues. Zemira tells Locke a tale from her youth and shares how pirate life freed her from rigid systems. She suspects Locke is more than a turncoat and guesses he is a double agent working for the Priory. Locke, as usual, deflects. Meanwhile,

Jaune and Esri grow closer, very closer, ending their flirtation with drinks and a night together. She reveals her noble, Nihkoran background that she has abandoned. Locke finally comes clean to Zemira. He and Jaune are thieves, poisoned by Straggos, sent to provoke war. My goodness, was I happy when he did this. Good on you, Locke. Finally, enough of the heist, enough of the lies. Not everybody is a mark.

He warns her that Port Prodigal isn't as safe as she thinks. Zemira, shocked but also unsure, asks for time to think until they reach port. The next morning, Locke and John reconcile. And those who were not following along or missed it because we briefly touched on this, they were fighting about whether or not to sell out the poisoned orga to Straggos. Later, the crew bond and Zemira

Jonathan (43:39)
right.

Slava (43:43)
tells Locke about a brutal lesson in secrecy from a youth and spots an unknown shadow trailing the ship. As port particles nears, the more tension rises. Because of the high winds, the ship must take a more dangerous route, one that contains a mysterious unseen threat that affects those without a strong will. Meals and rest are suspended and all hands are tilled to prepare.

Jonathan (44:10)
Mm-hmm. The plot thickens. The plot thickens.

Slava (44:13)
Yes, sir.

thick plot, thick mist, and unseen threats. What more can you ask for? ⁓

Jonathan (44:22)
There

are unseen threats. I actually think that this is like the slowest part of the book. I can't remember because what happens next? Actually, no, I'm mixing it up.

Slava (44:28)
Yeah, kind of.

there's a subsiding of action, right? Things still happen and they still have to do things because I'm a wordsmith apparently, but it's not high octane stuff like we get towards the end of the book and it's not like what happened just a chapter or two ago, you know?

Jonathan (44:51)
Yes. I want to go back a second though, because we didn't really talk. We didn't really put any time and attention on the pirating of the boat that they come up against. With the cultic, ⁓ forget what they're called, mercenaries. The monks who go berserk. Cause a lot happens there. Like that's why I was like confused for a second. I was like, yeah, that actually happens well before. Cause I put us on a couple of different tangents here, but.

Slava (45:04)
yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

Yep.

Jonathan (45:19)
But going backwards, when the poison orchid is coming up against the merchant vessel, the crew, the scrub watch crew specifically has the opportunity to get out of scrub watch. And what happens is Locke realizes that he's got no way to win back respect without doing something crazy, but it requires a risk of his own life to do that. And so he volunteers to jump over the side of the boat first.

or sorry, climb up onto the merchant ship first to be on board at first call. But one of the things that caught my attention is the level of detail that Lynch put in for luring in a merchant vessel to come and quote, rescue the poison orchid, right? Where they have the smoke barrels, they...

They fly the flag that says, we'll give you anything that we can salvage. It's clearly a very normal thing that Drakasha does where she's like, yeah, we don't actually have to fight a whole lot. We're just going to lure them in and then they just roll over once we get close enough because they just know they can't handle it.

Slava (46:36)
I like that part. That was another action-filled section of the book. I briefly only mentioned it in the chapter over you, half of briefly.

Jonathan (46:48)
Not even because I missed, I was like, that's coming up. And then I forgot. was like, ⁓ actually we passed it.

Slava (46:54)
Right, the only thing I said is how law convinces Amira to take the captain's purse and all the monies without torturing him, right? And just scares him into giving it away. But outside of that, yeah, the crazy religious zealots, know, whatever the hell's going on with them. You want to talk about that? You want to unpack that a little bit?

Jonathan (47:17)
Yeah, well we get a curve ball, right? Like we think it's, this is going to sound silly, but we think it's just going to be an average pirate attack where they're going to go on board. They're going to swashbuckle and call it a day. But instead this merchant ship ha is, you know, has no ability to fight except for the fact that they brought on a bunch of psychopaths who are cultists, ⁓ who. Jeremiah Redeemer, sorry.

Slava (47:42)
Jeremiah Redeemers.

Jonathan (47:45)
not cultists, religious zealots, because he does not call them a cult, that are trained. In my mind, they're like Shaolin monks who are very peaceful until provoked. And then they have to see blood. It's like Shaolin monks mixed with Norse Vikings. And that's why when Locke is, you know, he climbs up the side first and he sees that there's actually chaos going on. It's not that they want to fight. It's that they want to not fight, but.

the Jeremiah Redeemers are making them fight.

Slava (48:18)
Yeah, they're religious men when faced with violence. They go two ways, either submit to either killing or being killed. There's no other option. So they're going to go down, you know, they're not going to go down. ha. They're not going to go down without a fight.

Jonathan (48:38)
Yeah, it was just such a curve ball the first time I read it because you're like, ⁓ you just assume it's going to be a normal pirate. You know, and it's not the, from the luring in to the attack to the surprise that it's not really an attack, but it is to lock having an opportunity to redeem himself by quote unquote killing four men himself to the thorn of Ember Lane, basically empowering him to do so because he puts that persona back on and goes, I'm just going to do this.

And then he tries to confess to Drakasha, hey, actually all that stuff's a lie. And she's like, you don't get it. When you're a leader believing that you can do it and then doing it, what did she say? Stop surprising you or something. So like you might've felt that way, but you did do it. Something like that.

Slava (49:28)
Because Locke coldly kills a good number of these morons using tricks and unfair tactics. And he even is surprised at the amount of blood he has shed. There's like two points here, one to what you're saying right now. And taking it back to a point you made a little bit earlier, Locke is seemingly disturbed by death more and more. Because when he's fighting the Grey King or when he's tearing out the bonds magi,

tongue and cutting his fingers, know, nori morse. When people go like, dude, what the hell? He's like, yeah, I called him an asshole too. He didn't like it. So there was this apathy towards suffering and listen, the bonds Magi leave him with four nubs and one eye and no tongue and three teeth. don't care. That guy deserved every bit of it. Irrespective of that lock begins to understand there's more to it than.

Jonathan (50:00)
No rem-

Slava (50:23)
you what he sees in front of his face, like from, one heist to the next heist, from one situation to the next situation, there are things that, that he doesn't know, doesn't know everything. Honestly, it comes back to the trauma of losing his friends. And yes, he got revenge in the bonds Magi, but his friends are still gone. And now he's thrown into this new heist, this new adventure, get new friends, but things are catching up with him, right? Like a normal trauma.

Jonathan (50:48)
Making new friends.

Slava (50:53)
experience. Things are catching up now.

Jonathan (50:55)
So true. Those are just a couple things I wanted to bring up before we wrap up the episode.

Slava (51:00)
Well, good thing

you did because I think we definitely glossed over it. I'm happy you brought us back to to expound on it a little bit.

Jonathan (51:06)
Mm-hmm. Port Prodacle nears. Rising tension. High winds are up. Stay tuned.

Slava (51:13)
Do you have what it takes, Jonathan, to make it through the mists of the mysterious threat that we'll discuss next week?

Jonathan (51:21)
I think so, but, ⁓ we can talk about that more next time where we meet other pirate lords. Locke decides it's time to start playing everyone against each other and hopefully survives long enough to get another swab of antidote. ⁓ Yes, it is. Tune in next time for part four of Red Seas Under Red Skies and also be sure to come back when Spencer's on.

Slava (51:40)
Nice setup.

Jonathan (51:50)
to hear his thoughts as a first time reader of Red Seas Under Red Skies.

Slava (51:55)
⁓ was this first time?

Jonathan (51:56)
Yeah, he's never read the series before.

Slava (51:59)
Wait, wasn't he on for Lies of Lacla-Mora? Oh, okay.

Jonathan (52:02)
Yes, but he'd never read that before either.

I'm- I- I told you, I'm Locke. I'm just silver tonguing him into reading a bunch of books that I want to talk about.

Slava (52:11)
And you're pitting us against each other, I see already.

Jonathan (52:14)
That's true. Catch you next time on the CFRS.

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