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We take a close look at your toughest moments at work and turn the discomfort into advantage. Learn more at www.talentism.com
Welcome to The Clarifier, where we take a close look at our toughest problems at work
Kathie: I would like walk home from work and like feel, just feel like my heart pounding and like almost these kind of animalistic - and we talked about this like - behavioral physical reactions to being like I'm really stressed out.
And turn that discomfort into advantage.
Kathie: As you take on bigger and messier things you're going to have things that aren't an A but as a person who wants to solve problems and push their bounds, you’ve got to let that go because if you're so focused on getting an A on everything, you're actually going to shy away from the bigger harder problems because you're going to go for things that are more known.
In this episode, you get to meet Kathie. Over the last decade, her scope of work has evolved or expanded roughly every year. Each time she felt both thrilled and terrified.
Kathie: Okay I'm hitting that zone. I need help, I need to go find a way for me to productively channel this energy in a way that helps me get to my goal
She’s learned to spot when she’s getting in her own way.
Kathie: As you get kind of more senior in level, actually the most important relationship you're managing is the one with yourself.
As Kathie’s coach, I’ve seen her repeatedly push against her own idea of what she’s capable of. Now, she accepts that in order to achieve bigger and more ambitious goals, it’s gonna get ugly before it gets good.
How did she do it? Let’s learn
In March 2021, Kathie had just taken on a new role. She went from managing one team to essentially managing 4 teams overnight.
Kathie
I did all the deep dives in April and May and by June I think the amount of overwhelm sort of hit me. It was almost like I had two separate jobs: one was the actual job of what's the new scope. What's on fire? Who are the people? How do I manage the talent? All the classic parts of the job. And then the other job that I didn't really expect to have was just joining the leadership team of, it was a digital team at the time. But being one of the new leadership team members and now working with people who were senior to me and being their peer - there was so much in my head around like, “How do I show up and what is the right level? And how much do I participate? Am I talking too much or too little?” It felt like 2 simultaneous jobs that were both big. And by June I was like,”I need help.” So at that point I looked for coaching help and found you.
So I think those were the kinds of feelings that were giving me the signals that I was like, ”I think I need help,” and at that time - I talked to my manager at the time and we weren't sure from a corporate standpoint whether it was the right time to find a coach. So I just ended up being like, “But I need help.” So I went out on my own and found you. Yeah.
Angie
Well as you speak I have sort of the classic image of the duck above and below water in my mind where others might perceive you as calm and in control but inside it feels very fraught and very frenetic and what's interesting is I'm hearing you describe two aspects of a job that may feel like a lot in terms of quantity: managing down the teams that you're responsible for and now sitting across from a new set of peers. But I also hear you describing almost a set of narratives about how you're being perceived. And feeling this need to manage how you're being perceived. Is that right? Was that part of the experience for you?
Kathie
Yeah I mean, I think it's totally right. And you know, I think it's also true at every level you know, depending on how much voice it takes up and how much room it takes up in your head. You know it's true for me even now. And some of that stuff, on one hand, I think is really healthy because managing those cross relationships are part of how you get work done, especially in a corporation where you have to work with a lot of peers and partners.
But it's sort of like, where do you tip into, “It's hit an unhealthy point,” and like the anxiety is holding you back rather than pushing you forward? And I think that's one of the things when I worked with you. It was sort of like you know - actually I have this image from Frozen in my mind. When Anna and Elsa look back and then suddenly the storm stops and you can see everything and it's totally still.
So it's kind of like, some of these anxiety signals I think are actually super helpful. I think they're helpful like today, right now in my current situation. But it's like, how do you manage it in a way where it's beneficial and not harmful, right?
When I was put into that new role, I couldn't sleep at night, like I would lie awake in bed and “Arrange”. It’s one of the things I really love to do. Thinking about how to move parts of the team and what would be helpful. Actually when I watched The Queens Gambit on Netflix and she's up all night tripping on some crazy drugs and watching chess pieces move around I was like, “Oh my gosh. That's exactly how I feel.” So when I'm in the grip of a new role, I'll have nights where I have a hard time sleeping because I'm like moving this piece and moving that piece.
And so in some ways that's really helpful because my brain's going and it's generating ideas and that's helpful. It's not helpful when when you wake up the next day you're exhausted and you’re actually performing worse because you kept yourself up all night. So those are the kinds of points I try to avoid.
Angie
Well, here's the interesting thing that I hear you saying - I'll drop in a little bit of our Talentism framework. When the excitement brings out in me my compulsive behavior (my superpower, the thing I couldn't turn off) and it goes till 2 or 3 in the morning, sometimes that's good because I'm really energized by this new challenge and sometimes that's bad because maybe I'm driven by fear. Fear that I can't do it, fear that others are going to think I'm not up to the task or see me make a mistake. And I'm hearing that as a big differentiator between that idea of anxiety can be productive. Like, “I'm aware I'm in a new situation. I'm aware I have to build relationships I don't have yet. I'm aware I’ve got to bring my Arranging superpower” versus “If I fail at this I'll die.”
Kathie
When you're in fight or flight you've sort of lost your rational capacity and you may go to a place that's not actually productive and so to me, it's a very fine line. You know there's a healthy anxiety - I'm in a role now where it's relatively new and there's a lot to be done and I'm feeling the anxiety of that. But sometimes it's actually sending me signals on where I should go next and that's actually really productive. But when something has triggered me and I'm now responding poorly or I am struggling to maybe, I don't know, work with a particular partner or deal with a specific situation, then you've sort of hit a point where you’ve got to take a step back and find a way to bring the rational brain back. I think you call it the limbic brain? The limbic brain or the just the reactionary type of processing.
Angie
I call it the Monkey Brain. Some people say the Lizard Brain. So okay, tell me a little bit about how you got to the point of recognizing, “Okay I'm in Monkey Brain or Lizard Brain.” And what allowed you to come back into what you're describing as Rational Brain?
Kathie
I think it's a couple of different factors. From a real short term perspective, it feels almost silly but it's like, “Go get something to eat, walk around the block, get a good night’s sleep.” Another element is just time. Once you've had a couple of revs you're like, “Okay. I recognize as I take on the challenge I'm doing now, I recognize now in a new role, the first 3 to 6 months will just feel harried and frenetic because that is a very normal part of that progression. Which was harder for me to know before. With every progressive move that kind of becomes more familiar. And then I think the other thing is just - when I was working with you, the untangling that you would help me do. You know what is actually driving that anxiety? Or driving that reaction? Or driving that interaction with a partner? I have to do a lot of venting / processing and then, when I would talk with you and then you would kind of point out this insight. And then I'd be like, “Oh right? and that would unlock a lot of and then you can kind of like move on from it and be productive around it. So I think those were examples.
Angie
Well I'm lucky because I got to partake in those conversations and the thing that I recall that I think is such a um, useful part of processing not for you exclusively but sort of generally is recognizing. I'm having an emotional reaction
Kathie
Yes, yeah, yes, yes.
Angie
But it seems so stupidly simple. But just recognizing I'm having an emotional reaction. Something must have provoked it if I can create a safe space for myself. Perhaps with a coach to examine. What is the emotional reaction that's occurring that provoked that emotional reaction? What might that teach me about a fear that sits inside of me? What might that teach me about the context or the triggers that bring out that fear? And what might that teach me about the behavior that shows up when I'm in fear and trying to protect myself as compared to the behavior that's actually most useful to me to achieve my goals, right?
And one of the ones that comes vividly to mind for me from that time is for you was a behavior around needing to show up with the right answer early in the process as a way of justifying to those who were your new peers that you belonged at that table. And if I think about what that need to show up with an answer sometimes got in the way of, I think it was getting in the way of some genuine curiosity and willingness to be messy. And be in the problem for long enough to understand it. You know, that's my recollection. I wonder if any of that resonates with you.
Kathie
Yeah, no, it totally does. I mean it was interesting - I remember actually a very specific conversation where you and I had talked about this and I remember the way you actually said it because I was like, “What?!” But the way you said it was that you thought I had a trigger point or like a specific need around status. And when you said that word I was like, “Ew.” Because you know when I think of status I think of like Gucci or some brand and I was like, “I'm not like that!”
But I think later on I translated it into - and I still think it's a trigger point for me, it's a huge trigger point for other people but it's around this like - wanting to get an A+ and not wanting to look bad. And you know, I say it to my team often like, “People don't want to look dumb. You know if you walk into a meeting and you go make someone look dumb, they’re not going to want to work with you.” So there's just a very basic human need there to be accepted and not look dumb. So you know when you when you pointed that out for me I think that was super interesting. And to your point, it helped me figure out if there is a trigger, like how do I unpack that trigger? And honestly - actually even as I think about now, you know - I recently had some good, helpful conversations where I was sharing some messy things and I got feedback that that was helpful, which goes against my normal thinking which is like, “I got to be buttoned up.”
I do love solving problems and so kind of being told like, “Don't be so focused on the A on every single thing.” Obviously you want your portfolio in general to be an A but that doesn't mean everything within it is going to be you know - or whatever, whatever the grade it is - but it doesn't mean everything within it is going to be totally “beating expectations” and that's okay. And that's actually something to become a little bit comfortable with. where that was a little bit of an adjustment for me.
Angie
So you've hinted at it a couple times now, but what do you think allowed you to unlearn to reduce the tight grip on the need to get an A?
Kathie
There's an element of me that I see in my second daughter who just like throws herself into the pool. And I throw myself in too so you know, part of it is I do think there is a part of me that is excited to just jump into the unknown. That obviously is a little bit in conflict with this need to get an A and I've had to balance that my whole life.
I think I shared some examples with you where I took too many classes in college and didn't get as good of a GPA because I'd done that. So it's actually sort of like a contradictory force that I hold within myself like, “I must get an A but I like to do these hard things,” and sometimes overextend myself. And so that's actually a lesson I've sort of had to learn in both directions. Like, “Hey it's okay to take on a portfolio where not everything is an A. By the way, you also shouldn't overextend yourself.” But so I think it's sort of like a lesson that I've had to learn across my life and now as an adult. It's just sort of, how do I watch that interaction? And which one do I let win in this case and am I watching that dial closely enough?
It's also an interesting kind of dichotomy I think about in my head around this like the need to look good and the need to like to do the messy work and maybe not look good and you know, I hope I don't take it too far in the other direction.
But the reality too that I find very interesting, and that I often share with my team, is that a lot of times in a big complex organization, you can't do anything yourself. You have to deal with things with others and and rarely is it that you're going to form a great connection with others by looking like an A plus student all the time you know, by looking infallible you're going to make that beautiful connection? Not really usually.
And so an interesting thing is a lot of times to break down those walls and actually get people to want to work with you. for me a lot of it is about actually being vulnerable like, “Hey we don't have it figured out. There's a bunch of stuff we don't have here. But here's what we know. And let's figure out between what you need and what I need, how we get to the place we need to get to.” It's very challenging if things aren't going well and you're trying to put on this brave face. It kind of feels like Emperor With No Clothes. Like everyone knows this isn't going well, why are you acting like it is? And so for me I'd rather just call the elephant out in the room and be like, “Hey we're not doing this well at all right now. What are we going to do about it?”
Angie
Yeah.
Kathie
And then to me that takes a bunch of air out because if you kind of can't acknowledge things upfront, people could spend the entire meeting being like, “This person is a farce.” I mean like it's a natural human reaction and so if I can just take the air out of that, we can just get to the problem solving part.
Angie
Are there people with whom or times when it's easier for you to go to that vulnerable place of saying, “This is not going well” or “I don't really know what I'm doing right now” and times when it's harder?
Kathie
Yeah, I mean I think this is the lucky part of having been - I'm about to hit 10 years at Schwab and I've really developed relationships across you know the whole company. And so this is where I've gotten lots of great lessons from Mary who actually promoted me years and years before I worked with you, to the VP level. She always talked about cash in the bank. She always talked about relationships as cash in the bank and she's like, “You're going to have to go draw on that relationship at some point. But if you have cash in the bank then you can come and say I really mess this up and I'm sorry versus if you don't have a relationship with someone and you're like, ‘Oh I just totally messed up your plan for XY and Z’ that's a lot harder of a conversation.”
So I think it's super - at least in this corporate environment - it's a very relationship based environment and having had those relationships, and because I've been here for so long, I think in most places I have somebody I can go to. And those are areas where it's a lot easier when I have a new remit or something has gone wrong or whatever it is. It feels like I have an entry into opening that relationship.
Angie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well what I hear you saying is there are instances where starting with that vulnerability is trust building and there are instances where it's easier to be vulnerable when the trust already exists.
Kathie
Yeah, yeah. I think that's definitely true.
Angie
And that sometimes using vulnerability to build trust requires some courage, right? When there isn't already cash in the bank. So I'm curious because now you're in the position or you've been in the position for a while now, where not only are you taking on new scope but you are asking others who you lead who report to you to take on new scope, in ways that may feel challenging to them, in ways that may feel like their growth edge is getting pushed against their own will and desire. What do you do in those instances to help them based on the lessons you've learned?
Kathie
Yeah I mean you know the first part of it is actually a lot of what we've just been talking about this whole time which is I can't remember who said this or quoted this but you know as you get kind of more senior in level, actually the most important relationship you're managing is the one with yourself. And like managing yourself is actually the hardest thing to do. And I think like when you're more junior you have this perception like, “Oh everyone who's at the highest level, they must be like a god of some kind and like operating with full rationale.”
And the reality is we're all people at every level and we're all operating with our strengths and our and our anxieties too. You know a lot of what I do for my team now, actually it's it's - maybe I could define it a little bit like the two roles I was defining before. There's an element of managing the work - which is just the work and how do we move it forward and go faster and work with partners or whatever it is - but there's another element which is like just just managing all the feelings, managing yourself.
Because you know, every person - whether it's work or something else - you have these little micro injustices that happen at various places. Like somebody pushed you this way and they shouldn't have or that didn't feel good or somebody on your team is having a reaction you blame yourself for it for it. There's so much emotion in just that management. You know myself, I've kind of gone through that cycle of spending brain cells on it and am now helping to guide my team on it.
Angie
That rings so true to me is that to be able to get to a level where you're managing scale, the first thing you have to be able to do is manage yourself, right? If we were speaking in Talentism language, we would say “have self-awareness and personal mastery.” Like, understand what's happening with me right now. How is that translating into intended and unintended behavior? How is that behavior helping me get to my goals and hurting me when I'm trying to get to my goals and what am I going to do about it?
What do I have the power to practice and what designs do I put in place outside myself so that I'm not relying on me when I'm at my worst, to be able to get to my goals? I'm relying on a system. I'm relying on others and so I think it's so magnificent to hear you describe that in your words like really truly. It's very gratifying. One of the things I'd love to do is give you a minute to think about whether there is a story or an example about that for you recognizing, "Here's a moment where I got to take a breather and manage myself because I'm getting in the way my reaction is getting in the way of me getting to my goals or me doing my best work." I'm curious if anything comes to mind.
Kathie
When I was approached for roles. I basically like had a meltdown rather than just being like, "What a great idea. Let's go with vigor!" Because maybe shook me from what my image was of what I wanted to be doing. I had a very strong reaction and probably not the most mature reaction and then had to go away and come back and and you know, kind of change the way I was thinking about it.
At any corporation you have reorgs at times and I mentioned Mary earlier. She shared with me that the organization was going to change and I was going to have a new manager and I was going to go to Andrew, who actually is a dear friend of mine and a colleague of mine now. So then she said, “Okay Andrew's gonna come talk to you in x number of minutes,” and when he came into the room he's like, “Kathy! I'm so excited to work with you,” and I had just been so bottled up in grieving over leaving Mary and like, “Who does this Andrew guy think he is?” And you know, I think Andrew was known for working maybe longer hours than Mary and I had really little kids at the time and I was really worried about that and literally he says, “I'm so excited to work with you!” And I'm like, “My hours are 9am to 4:45pm because I have to do pickup every day!”
And he's like, “What?” So you know… and then he was so good. He was like, “Yeah, of course, no problem.” Then funnily enough it was with Andrew again - I was in that role working with him and actually only a few months later poor guy, he had to say to me, “Hey, you know there's a new digital org being created and they'd like you to come and take a role.” And do a very similar remit to what I was already doing but in the digital org. And you know once again came back with like, “What?! Why can't I do the role here? What do you mean?” I'm doing the same role now and of course I totally now see why it needed to change as a role and it was absolutely the right thing but I went home and told my husband. I was like, “Andrew told me this and I had a total meltdown,” and we're in the car we're driving. He's like, “You know… Digital is kind of the future. You know, maybe you should take that role.” So I went back and you know said, “Oh yeah, great idea.”
Angie
What do you think provoked the initial reaction of - what would you describe it as like? Fear? Disdain? Anger? What did it feel like?
Kathie
It's just this feeling of overwhelm or like suddenly maybe loss of control. You know, maybe just kind of being put off of your center, off of your core. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's mostly a reaction to change that thankfully I have, you know - now change is the norm actually and change feels okay.
I don't know if it applies as much in those two examples that I just shared with you because they weren't so much expansions or anything like that. But I think in general there's also this element of like. Do you believe you can do it? Do you believe in yourself and actually when you were asking me for this example and I was thinking about it I didn't have a specific example that came to mind but it was a little bit like you know as I think about just the past examples that are more recent you know can I do it. Do you believe I can do it? And I I can't remember actually if I've explicitly had this conversation but I know in my head I would have this conversation when I was asked to do a thing like can I do it? Do I believe I can do it? You know there you know people are asking me to take this on. They must believe I can do it so you're sort of like counseling yourself. You know. Because you think through like how am I going to meet this challenge?
Angie
Yeah, yeah, well I think you know what you're describing um, fits really well with the talentism interpretation of the human experience of change right.
Kathie
Yeah.
Angie
When we have an experience where we had expectations. This is what our brain was forecasting, this is where we felt comfortable. This is what we wanted and then reality is different. There's some change in our equilibrium that throws us into what we would call confusion which is. Simply the difference between expectations and reality. So if my expectations I get are I get to keep working with Mary who's been a wonderful promoter of me and totally understands my work life balance needs and all of a sudden Andrew shows up. That's a change right? That's ah, that's reality violating expectations and so what I'm hearing you say is in that moment. There is that internal storm of overwhelm and the feeling of what's going on is this going to be okay and and what we would say is in that moment.
Balance can tip towards certainty narratives that allow you to protect yourself usually by painting somebody else as bad stupid or lazy or by painting yourself as bad stupid or lazy what you might call self-doubt right? Am I even good enough for this, could I possibly do it or how could I work for Andrew he works.
Kathie
Yeah.
Angie
95 hours a week or something like that I'm not saying he does. But that's the narrative that comes out right? And the nice thing about that certainty is it allows us to feel protected. Oh the thing that's happening to me is unjust right? I'm gonna try and avoid the change and I think.
What I'm hearing you say is at various moments. You've been tipped over in the other direction which is what we would call learning or clarity right? David sitting in the car next to you and saying isn't digital kind of the future. That's a question that promotes learning. And curiosity like what could the opportunity be for me if I recognize. Okay this is confusing but confusion isn't in and of itself. Bad. It's just a signal and that's kind of what I hear you saying it sounds like it feels like.
Kathie
I think that I'm applying that very much now and I remember actually I forget I always forget the specific talentism words but you obviously just reminded me and I remember there would be so many times when you and I were working together where I'd be like you know, blathering about something and then you would identify, “Here's where the confusion was because of the difference between expectation and reality. And that confusion is actually a learning tool.” It typically feels bad in some way because you know, if it didn't feel bad it wouldn't be confusing! But you could either choose to kind of box the confusion and to put it under the bed and be like, “They're idiots or I'm an idiot.”
Angie
Yeah, yeah.
Kathie
Or you could take the confusion and you can learn something from it. And actually it's funny because in the role I'm in now, I'm now almost bottling that lesson when things are confusing. I'm like, “That's a confusion that's” - I don't know if I'm using that language. I'm calling it “signals” for me.
Angie
Yeah.
Kathie
And so actually even today talking to my team, I'm like, “Here are these uncomfortable things that we just learned and those are actually gifts, they're signals.” You know, we’ve got to go look here and here and some of these signals, sometimes we agree with and we don't agree with. And we may or may not do something about it but for the most part these signals are diffs. They're helpful and so I think that construct - I feel like I'm actually living that now which is cool! Because it gives me language around taking some of that discomfort and doing something productive with it versus getting stuck right.
Angie
Yeah, well, it's cool for me as a coach here in some way that it's taking hold. A+ Kathie!
Kathie
Yeah I'm doing the thing. Yeah, ah yes, thank you. Thank you.
Angie
Can you tell us a story of a confusion arising and it either kind of hitting you sideways or hitting a team member sideways and you help them to see it as, “Oh that's actually productive discomfort. There's learning available for me there.” Any stories or examples recently?
Kathie
Yeah, well. Ah yeah I mean plenty I mean I'm still in a relatively new role so it happens daily or weekly. But actually there was a really nice one recently where I had a conversation with a partner that made a comment about somebody on my team.
I didn't love the comment and it sort of just sat with me. And it was kind of like one of these get ready in the morning you know, and it came to me like, “I need to communicate how I'm feeling on this,” and not just like one blobby answer. It's actually these progressive points. This bothered me because, “And this other concern and this thing and this thing and this thing,” and then I actually scheduled the time. And I actually went in and I opened it up and I said, “I'm so sorry. But I've been doing some thinking and I want to make sure I say all the things and would you mind if I just share a couple points that I'd written down?” And so I did that. And then it actually opened up such a productive conversation. You know, it sort of helped the partner realize like, “Oh gosh, apparently Kathy has a trigger here!” But also sort of shared that vulnerability that I was just describing to you on, “Here's what I have going on. And here's why the comment that you made - totally innocently - really got to me. Because I have these other things going on that I'm trying to manage and your comment around this actually makes me worried about it from five different angles,” and then and it actually opened up the conversation. So I think we had better understanding but then also that partner then said, “Hey let me elaborate on the comment I made and what I meant by that.” And then we actually had a really productive conversation in which that partner gave me words around something I had actually been thinking about myself. And gave voice to feedback I had actually thought about that I didn't know how to put into words yet.
And then I ended up having a really productive conversation with that person on my team just being very honest about, “Hey we had this conversation,” so it was just so Interesting.
How that moment of confusion or that dissonance kind of cracked open this very productive interaction that is now laying the foundation for a bunch of other things. But it was sort of like, you know, I could have ignored the comment. I could have just dismissed the comment. I could have. But like actually that's an example of how taking the signal is actually super productive.
And then I think now in my role, in general, I’m tackling new areas and different challenges. It's all about interpreting signals and so it's sort of like, “Okay of all the hundred signals I get a day, which ones are worth engaging on and and really following through to a different level versus which ones are noise and I have to not pay them too much debt?”
Angie
You said it so beautifully, which was having this conversation with my peer with this partner in the business where there was kind of like one thorn in the conversation right? A comment that kind of made me annoyed, right? I could have ignored it, I could have walked away and just said, “Well that guy's an idiot. I'm not going to pay attention to it.” But I chose to lean into it and the payoff of leaning into it was a whole new level of mutual understanding and new language on my part for talking about something that was still sort of fuzzy in my brain and still kind of coming together. And so it sounds like that was like a real tip towards learning as opposed to sort of certainty and narratives and that kind of thing.
What do you think lets you make that choice?
Kathie
I was actually thinking about this from a different angle as you were asking the question because I was thinking like, “Do you always react? Do you always take the learning?” And I actually think the answer is no and it's intentional. You know, because it goes back to the whole signal interpretation, right? I think the reason why I leaned into this one was - I mean fortunately and going back to some of the other themes we were talking about - I have a wonderful years long relationship with this partner and also I'm placing a heavy bet, I'm putting all my chips in on this working relationship. So it's sort of not optional to just let it lie. You know, I mean it could be optional to let it lie and I do see I see this happen elsewhere where people just sort of let things fester.
Angie
Yeah.
Kathie
And I don't believe in that. But so for me, if it does hit a bar of, “I must work with this person and I must invest here,” then even the smallest thorn is worth raising if I believe that improvement or a productive interaction can come out of this. If it's more peripheral or it's like you know, an acquaintance that I'm never going to see again… Like why invest the time? Then it's just not worth it. But that's sort of the way. That's my calculus. Because I think in the end, going back to what you're saying, it is self-interested.
Angie
Yeah.
Kathie
You know it's not - we're not altruistically trying to just do - we are trying to do the right thing for sure but part of it is also, “I want to accomplish the goal.” The goal is to have a healthy working relationship and accomplish these goals and I'm not going to be able to do that if there's a little bit of resentment with a particular relationship I got to stamp that out.
And so I think for me, as a problem solver, it's also about how badly do I need to unlock this thing to really get to my goal? I don't think I am consciously thinking about that, but I think that is a subconscious consideration as I think about it.
Angie
Yeah, so two of the things that really sit with me as I listen to you is one one of the things that lets you feel like you can be messy is existing trust with someone or believing that being messy is a way to build trust, right? That idea of vulnerability as a way to actually build relationships.
I also hear you saying something very practical that makes a lot of sense to me in a business context with an economic imperative which is that there is confusion all over the damn place, right? But to pursue the confusion that's going to unlock learning, that's going to have an impact on my goal, that's what I'm trying to do.
Kathie
Yeah, yeah.
Angie
Right? And that makes sense to me. Confusion that's in the way of helping us achieve our shared goals or helping me, Kathy achieve my goals. That's the confusion that I'm going after. That's the confusion where I'm willing to do the uncomfortable thing to seek the learning to seek the mutual understanding. That's what I'm hearing. Yeah yeah.
Kathie
Yeah, yeah, that's right, There's not that many hours in the day so you’ve got to figure out how to use them. Yeah.
Angie
Yeah, yeah, right? Well let's add more hours in the day by going back in time and talking to 20 year old Kathy and what advice would you be giving to her.
Kathie
Okay.
Angie
Knowing what you know and having the experiences you've had and shared with us.
Kathie
I would sort of just leave her alone. You know, just let her do her thing. But I'd probably say to her, “It's okay that you don't know what you want to do.” And I think a guiding principle of what I ended up doing at the time - which is the advice I give people now is - just take the hardest thing in front of you as long as you have the capability and you're not encumbered by a bunch of kids at home that need you to be present as a parent: go do the hardest thing you possibly can, as often as you can so you can accelerate that learning earlier earlier in life and the other thing that I know I shared with you that I would also share is just you know - I think there were environments where I was discounted and where I went into that first investment banking job and had no idea what I was doing so I probably was appropriately discounted! But you know, the economy was great, I started at J.P. Morgan and I had never opened Excel and people were taking bets on how long I'd last. And obviously that doesn't feel good to find out when you're in the moment but for whatever reason that sort of fueled my fire to go prove people wrong and go do a good job and continue to go at it.
I interviewed for a full year. It took me about 100 interviews for 50 different places. In the end I landed two hedge fund jobs at the same time and then did that. But there's a lot of failure that's in between the lines of the resume that doesn't get seen or talked about. And I like to share about that because I think that's just such a human and normal experience. I mean congrats to the person who's never failed but you know everyone has gone through that and I don't think that's as visible because that's just not - you know, people are wanting to look good and not wanting to look like they're not having the A+ and so I think that's another piece that I don't think I really realized as a 20 year old that I would share back with that person.
Angie
The thing that's so beautiful about listening to you speak Kathy, is you so fluidly describe two parts of who you are: one who is really motivated by, call it the A+ or proving them wrong, and one who is so deeply intrinsically motivated by the hard problem and the learning, and those things are not incompatible. But I think that there are times when the first one shows up and it strangles the opportunities around the second.
We're not one thing and it's just it's great to hear you describe how those things interplay and sort of the evolution of seeing yourself clearly through time. Like you said, as you grow up the most important thing to manage is yourself.
Kathie is there anything we didn't cover that you wanted to say or get across today?
Kathie
I didn't get to say this earlier but Angie I've worked with a couple coaches and some of the things I really appreciated - I had no idea at the time because you were the first person I went out and interviewed. It's like finding - it’s very chemistry based and it's hard to find the right person to work with. But I don't think I realized at the time what a gem you were and you know, I've worked with other coaches and they're also really wonderful. But I think working with you - it was actually interesting because I think you were transitioning, maybe at that time, from working on your own into Talentism and so I also got to see you using Talentism frameworks and helping to bring that to your work with me.
But I think working with you was just so unique because it wasn't just - I think some coaches will give you a generalized framework that are like, “In general you should…” but even the frameworks you used today were very specific to unlocking a person's individual superpower based on the emotional trigger that they've hit. So it felt very specific when you brought frameworks to me. It felt very specific and then you'd be like and, “By the way you're meeting with your direct who you need to convince to take a job right? After this do you want to talk through talking points first?”
I think that breadth of the help that you were bringing me, which is like helping me identify my trigger points but then actually helping me in the actual work - I don't think I realized how unique that was until you know, I went on to work with other people who are also very lovely but just, kind of that combination was so nice to have that experience working with you.
Angie
I appreciate you saying that and I got hit by- these are all my cough lozenges here! I can run all day but I just got hit by my recurrent cough. I appreciate you saying that and I think the real privilege for me is being able to um, learn from this vast wealth of intellectual property at Talentism. I sit on the shoulders of giants. And I really deeply care about the specific situations my clients are in because I get to choose great people to work with. So I'm invested in you being able to convince that direct report to come work for you and to take that job and so the privilege for me is being able to bring that into these specific situations in a way that's applicable.
If you relate to anything Kathie felt in this podcast, or want to learn more about how you can use signals of confusion to help you achieve business goals, I invite you to have a chat with someone at Talentism.
Drop us a line at info@talentism.com and schedule a 30 min conversation with one of our coaches. We want to hear from you.
You can learn more about how we guide our clients at talentism.com where we share our insights from serving over 800 companies.
If you have a leader you’d like to see featured on this show, or a topic you’d like us to cover
Email me at angie@talentism.com
This episode was produced by John Hunter with story editing by Jessi Gormezano. Special thanks to Greg Kim, Rachel Kitto and Rocio Gonzalez.