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The world is just so interesting that it's impossible not to be fascinated by it, and the people who inhabit it. Join host Dave Moss on this long-form interview podcast, as he follows his curiosity to learn new things from some of the most fascinating people and hopefully introduce you to some amazing things along the way.
Dave Moss (00:01.834)
Okay, so, Andrew, first off, thanks for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, I feel like I don't get down to Portland enough, so this is just my selfish time with you.
Andrew (00:06.346)
Thanks for having me.
Andrew (00:12.81)
I know I've even told you that we now have guest rooms available also. So it's all your fault. It's all on you.
Dave Moss (00:18.206)
It is, it is, it's mostly my dog's fault because they don't like to travel. And then my wife, you know, rescuing a puppy last week also threw everything off the wall, but you know, it is what it is. So random place to start because we're going to bounce all over the place. And you and I have talked a little bit about this, but I feel like there's probably more to it. How did you become an old crazy runner?
Andrew (00:22.946)
That's fair.
Andrew (00:32.925)
It's fine.
Andrew (00:48.194)
Oh, so this is one of my favorite stories. So I was, I was how old are you now? Okay. I was 42 or 43. So I was right there where you're at and, uh, doing, uh, I was doing mostly nothing. That was my current plan was to do nothing. And there was a New York times article and they did this.
Dave Moss (00:55.686)
41.
Dave Moss (01:01.158)
So I got a year or two before I have to start running.
Andrew (01:15.15)
I believe like a couple decades long study where they followed people who walked regularly for exercise and people who ran regularly for exercise. And the summation was that the runners lived a couple years longer or something like that. And at that point I was doing neither. So I was like, oh, well, I have to do something. So I might as well pick the one with the better longevity results. So that's how I started running.
Dave Moss (01:44.666)
and now you run like a crazy person.
Andrew (01:48.074)
You would think I run like a crazy person, but I don't. I don't. There are people way crazier than me.
Dave Moss (01:49.062)
I'm out.
Dave Moss (01:53.891)
Some of whom you've interviewed and I've listened to on your own podcast. Guys in their 70s or higher running marathons and...
Andrew (01:57.364)
Yeah.
Andrew (02:02.226)
Oh, yeah. I mean, we interviewed this one guy in his mid sixties that I think he's ran like over 300 full marathons, basically would run a full marathon almost every week, which he continued to do during, um, chemotherapy and radiation for being treated, uh, with prostate cancer. So like he would get like chemo on Thursday and then go run a marathon on Sunday. So.
Dave Moss (02:23.839)
wild.
Dave Moss (02:30.662)
I... yeah.
Andrew (02:32.57)
When you hear that, you're like, oh, OK, that nine miles I did on Saturday. Yeah, that doesn't really count.
Dave Moss (02:40.211)
The zero miles, well no, I walk. I am one of those walking people. I've always been a walker. That's why I've had dogs my whole life. 10,000 steps in a day is nothing for me. So that's always been my thing. So you read this study, you said, okay, I'm gonna do the thing that gives better longevity. And then you dove right in, you ran, you had a podcast with your cousin, no?
Andrew (03:02.75)
No, no, I sucked for a long time. I really, yeah. So when I started running.
Dave Moss (03:07.09)
But most people, when they suck, they stop. You sucked and kept going.
Andrew (03:10.71)
Well, I stopped and then started. It wasn't a jump right in the pool and keep going. When I started, I don't think I could run, I don't think I could run a full minute when I started. Like I would go out, I downloaded an app. If you wanna try it, there's an app called Ease Into Running. It's free, E-A-S-E. And it starts you off by like, run for 30 seconds, walk for 30 seconds, run for 30 seconds. So I followed that.
Dave Moss (03:23.07)
Hmm.
Andrew (03:41.046)
uh... did it five k and then i do attend k and i kinda got into running and i read you know a book on like all run with the shoes with no support because that's the cool thing now and that i injured myself and can run for a year and then uh... just kinda kept going off and on and then i would say in
So from 2015 to 17, I ran quite a bit. I did like a few half marathons. I would do like a half marathon every year. Ended up having some sciatica problems, which doesn't make me sound old at all. And then took like a year, like I did yoga for a year to fix that. And then probably in 2017 or 18, I saw a buddy had also started running that we had been friends before
been in much contact and they lived nearby. And so we started running together and then just kind of kept going. And then you go to these races and you run really slow half marathon. Then you see, you get beat by like an 80 year old that's like five two. And you're like, oh, I think I can probably step this up a little bit.
And then when the pandemic hit and everything shut down, I was just going crazy. So I just started running. It was either go completely insane or start running. So that's what I did.
Dave Moss (05:00.251)
and then.
Dave Moss (05:12.208)
I would choose to go a couple, I tried running. I had you coach my stride and everything else. I got the shoes, I did everything. Cause I love books about people who go long distances. Like I read a lot of books about like through hiking and I've read a lot of ultra marathoner books and different things. And I'm like, you know, there's gotta be something to this. I'm fascinated by it. Maybe I should go do it. And I have tried, I had, I did couch to 25K, which is.
Andrew (05:16.703)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (05:37.434)
another one of like walk for 15 seconds sort of things. And I just, I never found the stride.
Andrew (05:40.892)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, it's probably harder to do it in kilometers. It's the miles are shorter. You have to run twice as many kilometers as you do miles. So that's probably why it was so hard. I think it is a 10 K is only six miles. I mean, it's way easier.
Dave Moss (05:51.424)
Yeah, I'm sure that's how the math works. Yeah.
Dave Moss (06:01.756)
That was it. I'll switch everything over to Miles and that'll be the kicker.
Andrew (06:02.744)
Heh.
Andrew (06:06.422)
So I do have something interesting that you might wanna try is, I listen to a lot of Peter Atiyah, do you know who he is, the doctor? So he's been doing a lot of studies on healthy living, right? You know, sure, if you lived in 90, 100's great, but if you spend the last decade of your life in a bed in a nursing home, that's not really what you want, right? So healthy living.
Dave Moss (06:16.198)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew (06:34.178)
And the number one factor across the board for healthy long life is a high VO2 max, which means your ability to process oxygen through your muscles and your brain and everything. Running is perfect for this, but there are also a lot of other activities that people hate that are good for this too, right? So one thing you might try.
Dave Moss (06:57.963)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (07:00.902)
is and to get a VO2 max up, you just have to get your heart rate elevated a little bit higher than you would when you're walking. So you could try like a weighted vest or have a rucksack or something. So it's just a little bit harder.
Dave Moss (07:15.11)
Yeah, I've thought about rucking. I had a coaching client at one point in time where she was developing a rucking pack for women because apparently there are not very many out there. And it made me think about doing that. And so there's also the benefit too is I could just drive 30 minutes and just start walking up hills, very big hills, the Rocky Mountains. But yeah, yeah.
Andrew (07:33.482)
Oh yeah, that'll do it. Yeah, yeah. I just have, I have a couple of weight vests that I use sometimes. Amazon, they're like 40 bucks and you just throw it on and you're like, oh, this is harder. You just walk a little faster and then your heart's like, damn it. Yeah.
Dave Moss (07:39.559)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (07:44.69)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (07:49.274)
Yeah, see that I could do. I feel like walking any distance, I feel like I can go forever. Like I walk with my dogs, we live right next to a provincial park. And so I walk in there two, three hours and I love it. And like that's, I always said, I'll know I'm successful when I could walk in the woods for two hours a day and not feel guilty about it. Like I don't need millions or billions of dollars. Like that was it. Like if I could walk in trees for two hours a day, I got it.
Andrew (08:15.158)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (08:18.49)
So maybe I'll just start putting some weights on myself. No, no, but some people do, you know, like, I feel like, I feel like this was, I mean, I came up with this when I was in the middle of my grind era, when I felt like productivity was the only thing that mattered in life. Thankfully, I'm a recovering hustler, but yeah.
Andrew (08:19.178)
Yeah, well you should never feel guilty about walking in trees for two hours. No matter how much money you have or don't have.
Andrew (08:31.766)
Yeah.
Yep.
Dave Moss (08:38.87)
Now it's just like, I just go walk and I don't care. I turn my phone off and listen to it. I used to listen to the old crazy runners podcast and walk and be thinking to myself, maybe I should be running.
Andrew (08:50.358)
Well, and the running and to be clear, I can't run on a treadmill. I can't do it. It just drives me crazy. So I have to be outside. And I think we've talked about fractals before. I'm a firm believer in, you know, your mind clears as you watch the trees go by and the bushes pass and say hi to people. I'm one of those weird people. I say hi to everybody that's on the trail. There's like a walking running trail. And there's so many people that don't say hi back.
Dave Moss (08:56.166)
Yeah, I tried. Couldn't do it. Yeah.
Dave Moss (09:02.057)
Yep.
Dave Moss (09:12.159)
same.
Andrew (09:18.302)
And it, I know it shouldn't irk me, but it kind of does.
Dave Moss (09:22.77)
Maybe that's a Pacific Northwest thing. Everybody here says hi back. In some capacity. Not always as joyful as me, but, you know, we'll get a nod or a hi or a warning, but...
Andrew (09:27.263)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes I'll get nothing. I'll get the straight ahead, I'm not making any contact whatsoever with you.
Dave Moss (09:38.174)
Yeah. So I'm gonna take a tangent here that is related. You talked about the fractals and spending time out in the forest, which ties into... there's a Japanese concept, shinrin-yoku, or forest bathing. This is my tie-in to... so talk to me, you lived in Japan, you met your wife in Japan. How the hell did you end up in Japan? You went to the University of Oregon for English Lit, and then somehow ended up in Japan.
Andrew (09:58.047)
Yeah.
Andrew (10:06.09)
Yeah, I want to be rich, so I studied English literature. Well, so the roundabout way is I went the summer between my junior and senior year, I was able to travel around Europe a little bit. And then after U of O, I went to the former Soviet Union.
Dave Moss (10:12.002)
Yeah, so where did Japan come from?
Andrew (10:28.702)
in the Peace Corps and then I got back and I couldn't get a job and I had a friend that was in Japan, he was like, dude, just come teach in Japan. So I was like, okay, that sounds better than waiting tables, which is what I'm currently doing.
Dave Moss (10:28.987)
Moldova, right?
Dave Moss (10:42.098)
fair. Yeah. And so you just went you went touch it. Where were you in Japan?
Andrew (10:44.951)
Yeah.
Andrew (10:48.67)
I was on the island of Shikoku. People will have to look that up because nobody knows where it is. Yeah, so there's the there's Hokkaido, which people know. And then the long main island is Honshu. And then right under Honshu, right where the main island bends, there's a island shaped somewhat like Batman's mask. And that's where I was out in the middle of nowhere.
Dave Moss (10:53.167)
No idea.
Dave Moss (11:15.198)
Fair enough. Was that where your buddy was or did you just end up there?
Andrew (11:17.822)
No, so he was working for a corporation. So there's a big chain of English language schools. And he was working there. He had been there a couple years and was low management level. And so he was like, hey, you should do this. This is how you do it. This is how you do the interview. Drove up to Vancouver, BC for the interview.
stayed at the youth hostel next to the lake there. And then, yeah, did that. And then went to Japan and my wife, this school was like in all ages. So it's kind of like a, a Berlitz or it's like a piano school or a karate school where, you know, I had students that were five years old and I had a student that was 92 years old and everybody in between. And so my wife was one of the students at the school and that's how we met and started dating.
Dave Moss (11:44.431)
Nice drive.
Andrew (12:14.706)
I thought she was probably rich because she was Japanese and she thought I was probably rich because I was American and we both found out we were mistaken.
Dave Moss (12:25.938)
Was there much culture shock moving there for the first time?
Andrew (12:30.102)
Not really, I'd traveled a lot more culture shock in like the former Soviet Union. Because Japan, like Japan is weird because you go there and some things are different, but also it's the same, right? Everybody's driving Toyota cars and Honda cars and there's 7-Elevens everywhere. So it's a culture shock where nothing is really out of the ordinary, but everything is slightly different than back home.
Dave Moss (12:59.882)
Hmm. Did you already, because I read somewhere, and you can fact check me if this is incorrect, but I read somewhere that you speak four languages. Was Japanese one of them at the time?
Andrew (13:11.498)
No, I spoke no Japanese when I went. I was, you know, had my little book, had my cassette tapes, because this was pre-internet, you know, and then the moment I landed, I hired a Japanese teacher to teach me, and then I would just, when I was out and about, I would just refuse to speak English with people. I would only speak Japanese with them, even though I would only know like 20 words.
Dave Moss (13:35.274)
That's impressive though.
Andrew (13:36.31)
Which is really fun when you're trying to explain to someone what kind of haircut you want. Yeah. Quite a few bad haircuts.
Dave Moss (13:40.443)
Fair. Not a problem I have.
Dave Moss (13:48.472)
Is that a habit or something that you found in your life that's sort of diving into things, like only speaking Japanese with people when you're in Japan, getting into running because you read this article about that. Like, is that a process that you've gone through multiple times in your life? Like when you find something that you wanna try, you just go all in?
Andrew (14:09.866)
Oh, that's a good question.
Andrew (14:15.402)
Am I a little bit obsessive about some things?
Dave Moss (14:18.761)
That's another way to put it.
Andrew (14:19.694)
Probably. And also with things, I'm also willing to become obsessive with them for a bit and then kind of move on and do something else with a lot of things. But I think.
Andrew (14:38.43)
with languages, I took French in high school and college. I almost minored in French, but I never did really well. Usually I was an A student, but French was always one of my Bs. Like I just wasn't quite good. But then I ended up going to France with the girl I was dating, and we met up with our teacher who's older than us, and then one other student, and I noticed that I was a much better speaker than.
any of the other students who got better grades than me. And so I was like, oh, it's not about getting everything right, right? With language, it's about just jumping in, communicating, and then you just kind of get better as you go. And then, but yeah, I'm a bit obsessive with things. I got into, like I started watching van videos, so I built a couple vans and sold them, and then now I'm kind of done with that and moving on.
Dave Moss (15:30.908)
Just a hobby collector.
Andrew (15:33.582)
Um, a hobby, uh, I like to do some hobbies for a little bit and then maybe move on to the next one. Running's different because I know that if I keep doing that, I'll, I'll be healthy when I get older. Yeah. Running's running's not a hobby. It's more of a vocation now.
Dave Moss (15:44.154)
Yeah. So what other?
Fair enough. What other things have you picked up along the way? So you've had the running, you've had the vans, which you build a very good van, I must say. I've been in one of your vans. Yeah.
Andrew (15:59.59)
Oh, thank you, thank you. I don't know, I just get interested in things for a while. I like to, I think.
Andrew (16:12.734)
with a lot of things. I don't care if I'm the best at anything. I don't care if I'm the fastest runner, but I like to be, I like to do something to the point where I'm very much above average in that thing. So for example, running, obviously I'm not going to, I'm 53 now, I'm not gonna win any records, but I like to finish in the top three in my age group when I do a local race. So that's kind of focus. Or when I'm building the vans, I want it to look really nice, function really well, have all the things.
Um, and so I think that kind of drives me and then, but when I get to that point, if I really, really enjoy it, I'll continue. But if it was like, Oh, that was, I like learning things and become proficient in them, and then I don't care if I continue to do that one thing all the time.
Dave Moss (16:57.998)
Is that an intrinsic motivation? Like when you want to finish top three or you want something to be good, is that like, are you being motivated by yourself or are you judging or comparing yourself to others who are doing that same thing and then like waiting it that way?
Andrew (17:14.282)
So I think with a lot of these things, it's always a little bit of both. You know, and I think where you get in, where people get in trouble is when you skew more towards your motivation coming too much from the praise from other people or something. So for me, it's like, it's probably 80% intrinsically or maybe even 90%. Like if I don't get that positive feedback from the world,
It's not a big deal, but if I do, I'm much, I'm happier. Like I'm not gonna lie to you.
Dave Moss (17:48.806)
Yeah, that's fair.
Andrew (17:51.03)
Right? Like at the race, like I.
Last month I finished first in my age group. I posted the Facebook and I was intrinsically very happy with the day But I was also very happy that a lot of people like congratulated me too. Am I gonna lie to you? Yeah, those little bulls Yeah, yeah, I think where people get in trouble is when they when you put something out into the world and like Nobody likes it and then that discourages you and then you stop doing the thing. I think that's what gets you in trouble or
Dave Moss (18:07.838)
Sure, yeah. And you get the medal and you get the t-shirt and it's all good, yeah.
Dave Moss (18:27.186)
Yeah.
Andrew (18:27.946)
You know, so it's about that balance. I think it's important not to lie to yourself that it doesn't matter what other people think because it does. That's how we communicate with the world and interact with the world. But we can, I mean, we can just, you can see that everywhere. Right, you can see that in musicians or actors who get all of their motivation externally and then when their fame starts to subside, they very quickly get addicted to some drug or become an alcoholic or something, right? And it's...
It's a pattern we've seen over and over forever. And then you see those people who don't and they get it internally and they, maybe their fame goes down, they start going on Broadway and they build back up their career, doing a Jason Bateman type career move.
Dave Moss (19:13.13)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, that was something that I always have struggled with. The reason this show exists is because in the past, whenever I did anything, I did it for an external factor. You know, like I would create a business with a goal that I would make this much money or it would have this much success or any project that I had needed to have some sort of like external value.
And then I wanted to, I've always loved having deep conversations with people. And I'm like, yeah, I don't know if anybody else is going to find it interesting, but for this, I'm just like, I don't care. I'm going to do it anyways. And if nobody listens, like I've challenged myself to do a hundred episodes. So.
that's a little under two years of weekly conversation with people. And it's the first time, I think in my life, shout out to therapy, that I'm doing something with just to follow my interests and just with that intrinsic motivation. So it's great that you just sort of came out of the gate with that thing. Because I think a lot of people, and especially creatives struggle with that a lot.
Andrew (20:16.598)
Yeah. Well, but I do think it's important. So to put a caveat on this, I think that a lot of times we
equate dollars to praise or importance, right? Which, you know, if you support yourself through your efforts, that is important because, you know, living in a nice house is nice. So I don't wanna downplay that. But there is value in getting feedback on what you're doing, right? It's a dance, right? If you just recorded these and then
Dave Moss (20:34.963)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (20:45.918)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (21:01.186)
put them on a shelf and nobody heard them, that's very different from putting them out there. And maybe a million people don't listen to them, but maybe a hundred people do and like they write in. So that feedback and that interplay with the greater world is important no matter how much we tell ourselves we don't care.
Dave Moss (21:19.994)
Yeah, yeah, it definitely matters if people listen to the show, then that's great. I think the piece that was always missing for me though was, and I saw it in others, you know, I read so much and I listened to so many podcasts and you know audiobooks and all the rest of this, and the one thing that kept coming up for me...
The one thing that I've always researched was like drive, motivation, everything else. And the singular piece behind it was always, you have to be interested in what you're doing. And if you're interested in it and you're passionate about it, then I think you get that 90-10 split of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation versus the other way around. And...
It's a really fascinating thing when you finally discover that in yourself. Like you can't read yourself into success. I've read so many books about, you know, Angela Duckworth's grit and I can't remember who wrote drive and like all of these things always trying to find. Cause I surround myself with, you know, people like yourself or our mutual friends, Laini and Erica or whomever, like people who are out there like achieving and doing, and I always wanted to like, what is the thing behind their success? And so.
how do you impart that, I mean your father, how do you impart that to your kids to say, hey, follow your passions, but don't end up broke?
Andrew (22:47.026)
Well, first you have to get your kids to listen to you, which there is a good 10 year window where they don't. Ironically, it's the point where they become poor that they start listening to you. But I think that's interesting you mentioned grit because I think this is the book that I read it in. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she defines grit.
Dave Moss (22:51.374)
Hahaha
Dave Moss (23:04.175)
It works out.
Andrew (23:16.214)
as the combination of passion and perseverance. And so I think that in a lot of the conversations and social media fluff posts, there's a lot of posts about passion. Follow your passion, do the passion, which is important, but it's like 25% of the conversation.
Dave Moss (23:21.587)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (23:46.602)
You know, perseverance is, okay, try this thing and fail because you will fail. And then try it a different way and you're probably going to fail again. And then try it in a different way. You're probably going to fail that time too. But the, I think where most people succeed in doing something if they are successful is that when they, they try something and fail.
They're very honest in why something failed and then they change something and try a different way. I think that a lot of times when we'll see people who are failing at doing what they want to accomplish is that they rely too much, they're like, this is my passion, this is what I believe, and so they put it out in the world and it's not successful and they blame the world.
Dave Moss (24:41.811)
Hmm.
Andrew (24:43.818)
and then do the exact same thing over and over again and keep blaming the world for the lack of their success. Instead of saying, okay, I know I have a gift for the world and I put it out there, but nobody wanted it wrapped up this way. Maybe I need to reflect and wrap it up in a different way and put all of the pieces together in a different way so that the world will value what I wanna give.
I know that we've talked this before. I'm a big believer in that you are rewarded on the value that you bring to the world. Not your ideas, not your actions, not your thoughts, but the value you bring to other people. If you bring value to other people, then there's an endless source of income if you can bring enough value to enough people.
Dave Moss (25:38.814)
So would you say then that learning how to fail, because a lot of people suck at failing and I think it's a nurtured skill, right? Like I think we all grow.
Andrew (25:49.726)
Oh, I think everybody sucks at failing. I think that I think we're wired to suck at failing.
Dave Moss (25:52.367)
Okay.
Dave Moss (25:55.919)
Why do you think that is?
Andrew (25:57.73)
Oh, just because it's no fun. It hurts. It's painful.
Dave Moss (26:01.906)
Yeah.
Andrew (26:03.774)
Especially with, let me take that back. So we are, I feel like we are wired to succeed with simple physical things. Like everybody learns how to walk through failing. Like we all learn how to walk by falling down. That's just how we learn. We're like, oh, well that sucked that I hit my head on the coffee table. I wanna avoid that next time. I'm gonna try to balance longer. And so we learned that, but then in...
you know, whether it be dating or business or friendship or whatever, like there's, it's hard stuff. You know, we're going to use our mind and our heart and our feelings and everything all together and put it all together. Right. And, um, when we, when we fail with those things, like when you fail with a kid, when you're a kid and you fail or like, you're trying to jump your bike and you fail or whatever, you're like, ah, I failed because I haven't figured this out yet.
or I failed because I'm only six. I'll be able to do it when I'm eight. Well, when we're adults, we're like, oh, I'm probably failing because I suck.
Right. Versus, Oh, I'm probably failing because I just haven't figured out how to crack the code yet.
Dave Moss (27:20.366)
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing. I was talking to a photographer recently who's getting into senior photography, specifically for kids who love sports. And he said he loved doing that kind of photography because the kids are just so 100% in. Like they show up energized, they love this sport that they do, they wanna do the photos, they'll do anything to look cool.
But when he works with older athletes, or I was talking about like maybe branching into branding photography, he's like, most people come miserable. Like they know they need these things, but they're self-conscious about themselves, or they're worried about this, that, or the other thing. Has there been anything that has helped you bridge that?
that confidence gap, because I think we all have, like we have a lot of confidence when we're young, we all believe that we're bulletproof and we're the main characters of every story. But then at some point in time, for most people, not all people, but for most people that stops or at least diminishes, how have you learned to fail better?
Andrew (28:10.773)
Oh yeah.
Andrew (28:29.162)
Well, I mean, I don't want to quote one of the best movies of all time, but at a certain point you gotta let it go.
Andrew (28:38.466)
Frozen was correct. You just gotta let it go. Oh, I forgot. Yeah, you don't have little kids. All of the parents of little kids are like, oh my God, stop it. Now it's stuck in my head. So, but I mean, at some point you have to,
Dave Moss (28:38.598)
I didn't get... Okay, I'm like, I did not get that reference. Yeah.
Andrew (29:02.802)
I was just watching Ted Lasso, he talks about being a goldfish because goldfish forget what just happened. Like you have to just let those failures go. And I think, so one of my core beliefs right now is I think that as a society, and I see this in general, but then I also see this in like,
Dave Moss (29:13.334)
Hmm.
Andrew (29:29.974)
mental health stuff, but we attach definitions and things that happen too much to our person.
Like we're too, like when we fail, you know, oh, I'm a failure, I failed at this. Or, you know, if you're having difficulty that this, whatever it is, we're in this process of constantly labeling everybody and everything including ourselves. Instead of just looking at actions and what happened as just things that are actions and what happened, right? So failure is simply the process of, oh, I did this thing.
And it didn't work. Like that's all failure is. That's all it is. I took this action and that's this action didn't work.
And so separating those things from yourself, you can say, Oh, yeah, I did that. That was stupid. You know, not I'm stupid.
Or I keep doing stupid things, so I'm stupid. Well, you're not stupid, you just keep doing stupid things and you know they're stupid, so stop doing the stupid things and try something else. So I think that is why we haven't separated that. I've read an interesting book recently called The Gap and the Gain. Have you read that?
Dave Moss (30:59.754)
I haven't now.
Andrew (31:01.438)
So the gap and the gain and this, I believe this, it affects everybody, but I think it also, it's a little bit harder on people that are achievers or want to be achievers. And the concept is simple, is that if you focus on the gap, meaning the gap is where you are and where you want to be, you will be sad. You will be unhappy.
Dave Moss (31:27.667)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (31:32.05)
Because there will always be a gap. If you're a millionaire, you want to be a billionaire. If you have 10,000 followers on YouTube, you want to have 20,000 followers. So you're constantly focusing on the gap between where you are and where you want to be. And if that is where you live, you will also look at other people like that. So you look at your kids or your spouse of
Oh, this is where they are. And this is where I think they could be. So we live in this gap area. Well, living in the gain means always focusing on what you've accomplished in the past.
Dave Moss (32:03.999)
Hmm.
Andrew (32:19.018)
Right. So for example, yeah, like, for example, like I, I got really down, uh, earlier this month because we just launched the social design app, the mobile app, right? I really wanted to get that out in April and I felt confident that we could. And we not only did we not, we missed it by a month and a half. Right. So I was, I was in this gap mentality, beaten myself up, you know,
Dave Moss (32:19.278)
So just comparing yourself against your past self.
Dave Moss (32:35.123)
Hmm.
Andrew (32:49.174)
put the marketing team in a bad situation, put a lot of pressure on the dev team because I was focusing solely on the gap.
Well, if I just stopped and like made a list of everything that we've done over the past 10 years in the company, like the list is enormous, right? So if I focus on that gain.
then.
Andrew (33:17.863)
I'm in a better mental space, I perform better, and my ability to achieve the gap that I'm actually going for becomes much easier.
Dave Moss (33:28.298)
So you still have the gap in mind, but it's not the motivator, because you still wanna set a goal, right? You still wanna have that future.
Andrew (33:34.25)
Well, you can't, you have the goal. The key is, is you measure, you have to measure yourself out by your gains, not the gap, if you measure yourself by the gap, you will always be able to have.
Dave Moss (33:46.814)
So it's not, I'm falling short, it's we did this much and we're moving forward.
Andrew (33:49.642)
Yeah, yeah. So, and it could be whatever. You're like, oh, I want to be a millionaire in two years. Cool. Well, if you're only focusing on the future.
then you're always gonna be unhappy. But if you wanna be a millionaire and you're like, oh, last month I made $1,000 more than I did the previous month. And made 1,000 more than the previous month. And then three months ago I bought a crappy house and fixed it up and flipped it. Or whatever those things are, right?
Dave Moss (34:06.484)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (34:09.821)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (34:18.842)
Yeah. That's, I, I think I live in the, in the game. I love the game. I think I've, I've never been a compare and despair kind of person. And, and when I'm, I'm working with clients, you know, I have this one client and they're amazing. And they're, their year is better than any year that they've ever had before. But we get on a call and they beat themselves up about, you know, we didn't, we didn't hit our sales goal this month or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but you doubled the same month from last year.
Andrew (34:21.303)
So.
Andrew (34:25.471)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (34:48.826)
So you may not have hit the magic number that you set, but you're still so much better than you were a year ago. That's hard for people. Oh yeah. Yeah, they set a goal at the beginning of the year of this is how I wanna scale over the course of the year. Not against any thing, but just because that was the number.
Andrew (34:56.214)
Yeah. And usually it's some imaginary.
create a number out of thin air.
Andrew (35:11.286)
Yeah, and that's okay. Like it's okay to get to the month, it's like, oh, this is our goal, and we didn't quite get that. But then instead of focusing on the failure, you focus, okay, well, what did we accomplish this month? Well, first of all, you learned how to not hit your goal. Which is that's, you know, it's halfway there. Yeah, but you probably learned a few things to get closer to your goal.
Dave Moss (35:29.482)
Um, fair. Yep. Yeah.
Dave Moss (35:38.178)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's a really good way to look at it and track. So.
Dave Moss (35:48.43)
I'm fascinated by, I feel like, I see your kids' art and you're a very proud dad. You post a lot of your son's achievements on your Facebook and I think that's great. And I'm just curious, how do you talk to them, because they're both in sort of formative years, how do you teach living in the game?
Andrew (36:14.73)
Well, it's, I mean, it's hard because they, you know, I try to talk about some of these higher level concepts and they don't, they don't, they're not interested. They're like, whatever.
You know, but what, uh, what I do try to do is when, you know,
is, you know, when, you know, maybe they're bumped out about something or down about something is, is to remind them to instantly just look in the past year, we'll look, look at everything you have done this year. Oh yeah.
Dave Moss (36:45.798)
Mm.
Dave Moss (36:50.645)
Yeah, do you think it's more like planting a garden? Like, they'll get this stuff eventually? Because... yeah.
Andrew (36:56.614)
Yeah, yeah, you're just planting seeds, you know, and I think, um, also, you know, when in those situations, you know, being honest with the kids is like, well, yeah, I've had those fails too, but then I've also done this, this and this. So I just concentrate on the good things and try to make the bad things better and, and go forward. And a lot, a lot of times with kids, especially young adults.
can't really tell them anything. You just have to lead by example. Like you just have to show them through what you're doing and then, and hope they absorb it.
Dave Moss (37:40.188)
So.
Dave Moss (37:45.066)
trying to think of the best way to phrase this question. I think one of the most interesting things that I learned about you recently in the last few years, because I never knew this, was with your company when you identified your weakness and brought in Jonathan into your company.
what was that like? Cause I feel like that would be a hard thing for a lot of entrepreneurs to relinquish a little bit of that control, not feel like they're the person who understands everything. Because I work with a lot of small business owners and they have to do everything. And then when I start to try to teach them to outsource or to release different things or to automate, it's like.
You can't. It's like pulling a bottle away from a baby. You know, like they just do not want to let that thing go. So what was that process like for you?
Andrew (38:34.454)
Well, I think, I think I was in a bit different of a situation. We had scaled so much that we had multiple employees and I am a horrible manager. I'm very bad at managing people. So I was in the, like the company was going to go under in like six to nine months, probably just through poor management, you know, the ideas were great. The products were great. Revenues were good. Costs were out of control.
Dave Moss (38:54.003)
Hmm.
Andrew (39:03.294)
employees had no idea what they were doing or what they were supposed to do. And it was just, it was just chaos. So I, uh, and I just, I just knew that. So I had no qualms about bringing someone on. It was either bring someone on or have nothing in a year, you know, and that's a little bit hyperbole, right? Cause we were bringing in a couple of million dollars a year, but like, you know, we had too many employees. I didn't like, I just, it was.
Dave Moss (39:21.911)
Easy decision. Yeah, sure.
Andrew (39:31.778)
You know, I had never worked in a company, let alone owned a company. And I'm just not wired to manage people on a daily basis.
Dave Moss (39:39.922)
Yeah, you had this meteoric rise of Photoshop plugin to industry standard software. Yeah.
Andrew (39:45.074)
I was like, holy crap, what's going on now?
Andrew (39:51.163)
So that was a slightly different.
Andrew (39:57.786)
I think a slightly different animal. And also I had created a company where I couldn't be the means of production, right? I don't know how to code. And so I couldn't be the means of production. And I think that's where people get really into trouble is when they are the means of production. And then they think they can, they're the only people that can produce what they produce, even though there are thousands of people producing exactly the same thing around the world, right?
Dave Moss (40:05.712)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Moss (40:22.962)
Right. Yeah.
Andrew (40:26.914)
You know, it's like the, you know, the baker that thinks they're the only one that can make the bread, even though there's tens of thousands of people making bread around the world.
Dave Moss (40:36.766)
But I think it's kind of, this ties back into the thing that you mentioned before, where we like, we identify ourselves with our failures. We also identify ourselves with our successes, right? Like I feel like so many creatives and business owners and things like that, it's not that we have a business, it's that we are the business. Like it's, the lines are so blurred between where my personality and being ends and the business's.
exists and so it's hard to identify like the business's failures are my failures the business's successes are my successes and so of course no one else can do it the way that i can do it which is we both know it's complete fallacy but you knew that you couldn't do it without help right from the get-go you're not a coder everything else like that did
What was the culture shift like in your business when that shift happened? When it's like, okay, I'm not a good manager, I need to bring in another manager.
Andrew (41:40.15)
Oh yeah. Oh, it was, it was tough. And, and you know, I, it was tough to pry the strings away with from me from all of the pieces, you know, Jonathan will be the first to tell you like, he's like, Oh, there were, there were so many times when I almost just quit and walked out the door. Yeah. I, I am a very passionate person. I am not easy to work with.
Dave Moss (41:48.969)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (41:57.663)
fair.
Andrew (42:03.982)
Um, but I think that is how most, uh, creative business owners are, right? That's just kind of how you have to be wired in order to get something off the ground, you have to be very passionate and you also have to be very, uh, this is how it's going to be, and this is how I want the vision is going to be. Because if you're wishy washy on your vision at all, you're not going to be able to grow.
Dave Moss (42:28.358)
Yeah. Well, and you and I have talked about this before. And you even had sent me the, uh, understand myself quiz with like that concept of like creative visionary. And like there's all of these different, like personality types. And we had talked about how like you can only really have one visionary in a business. Like you have more than it's just, it's a, it's a clash. So how do you, how did you,
how did you find somebody who was like, who shored up your strengths, or shored up your weaknesses rather, because you're very good at vision, you're very good at people, you're very good at the creation of it, you knew what you were bad at, maybe not fully cognizantly in the moment at the time, but what was that like bringing in someone to...
to fill in your gaps. Cause I think that's a lot of people struggle in that space where it's like, I know what I'm bad at, but I don't want to admit it to the world. And then also have to release myself of that.
Andrew (43:23.659)
Yeah.
Andrew (43:28.874)
Yeah, I mean, I think part of it was just luck, you know, and I met Jonathan through, he was working with lens baby, which is also a company in our area. And part of it was, you know, we started by just having coffee together every once in a while, like talking through problems and issues. And part of it was just seeing that like, Oh, you, you know, how to do the things that I don't know how to do, where you have experienced doing the things I don't know how to do. And so that was that.
you know, process of identifying that, oh, I need someone like Jonathan. And then I think that part of it was just luck. You know, you just lucked out and met each other. And part of it is, is like, you know, when you are looking for something, it, you know, oftentimes you will find that thing, uh, because just, you know, the, you know, he was, he, he is also the opposite. Like he's really good at running companies.
But he could not, he cannot create a company. Like he cannot come up with ideas and the vision and put things together and off the ground. He's just not wired like that. We'll have discussion. He's like, yeah, I see you like talk through this with other entrepreneurs. And he's like, I don't get that.
Dave Moss (44:50.218)
Power Print, Fundy Designer Software, this all, you can tell me where I'm wrong. I'm taking a guess here. This all came from you being a photographer and seeing a gap, because you were, and still are, as a street photographer, you were a wedding photographer, I believe, in Japan, and then somehow now, are a, you're a tech magnet, a software company guy. We're like, whoop.
Where did that come from? Was that just see-a-need-fill-a-need kind of thing?
Andrew (45:22.986)
So oddly enough, I was really strong in math in high school. We have the SATs down here. I'm not sure if you guys took the SATs up there. I scored. It's just a standardized test for college. And I scored, I don't know, in the top 3% or something like that. And so I'd always been very, very strong at math. And when digital was just starting,
Andrew (45:54.282)
you know, I started wedding photography like right when the D100 came out and the, you know, the very first SLR cameras were coming out. And there were a few pieces of software out there for designing albums, but they were basically just a digital version of old matted albums, right? Old matted albums, you would, you would buy the mats and they would have these pre-cut holes in them. And then you would just order the prints that match the size of those holes. Right.
And so that's basically how all of the software was created. And that's still how a lot of software is created for photo design. We're like, oh, the hole is there and that's where we put the photo and that's it. And when I was, you know, there's a lot of pain in that because it's a pain to design, it's hard to find the right templates, it's really hard to change a template once it's designed. You know, if you have something designed where a vertical image is and you wanna change it to a...
a horizontal image, like oftentimes you can't, you gotta go find a different design. And for me, I was like, I saw it and I was like, this is just a math problem. Like ideally we wanna define an area on a page and then put any number of images in it and those edges should line up. Like that was just, that was the concept. And so I was like, we should be able to, like,
Dave Moss (47:19.005)
Yeah.
Andrew (47:22.71)
This is just a math problem, right? It's just ratios and areas. So, you know, worked through this with a few overseas developers, and then we got really lucky when we hired also Jonathan, but a different Jonathan, that our main programmer, and he's just really good at math, and he went to the Nintendo College of Gaming, so he was a very visual guy, and explained the problem to him, and he was able to
you know, refine that and figure it out.
Dave Moss (47:56.758)
make it happen. And then it just grew and grew and grew.
Dave Moss (48:03.934)
Did you, when you started the company, did you have a goal in mind for it? Or was it just, I'm just gonna see where this goes. I'm just gonna solve this problem.
Andrew (48:14.112)
The goal was to have a secondary income for the kids college fund.
Dave Moss (48:19.59)
Yeah, because you were still a full-time photographer at that point.
Andrew (48:20.546)
That was the goal.
Andrew (48:24.406)
So we moved from Japan. So I also owned an English school in Japan, right? And I was shooting part-time. And then I just wanted to come back to the US. So the plan was just to get a job. Like I was, you know, I'd run my own business for, I don't know how long, seven or eight years. It's like, you know, it's a bit of a grind. So I was like, I'll just get a job. This will be a side thing for the kids college fund, maybe 401k.
Dave Moss (48:31.011)
So just serial entrepreneur.
Andrew (48:54.098)
And then, but we decided to move back in 2008. The economy had a different idea.
Dave Moss (49:01.884)
Hmm. Yeah, not a great time for anybody. Yeah.
Andrew (49:04.222)
Yep. So, you know, we were just kind of Eken by like, even had to sell cars for a while. Like I worked at a, at a accurate dealership selling cars for a while, just to pay the, pay the bills. And you know, as the software was making like three or four K a month, you know, just, and then, you know, I was doing whatever I could to make up the difference. And then in the, in February of Oh nine, we made $9,000, you know, I didn't have any employees, you know, I just,
And I just had to go to my wife and I was like, so I don't think I can get a job that's going to pay me $9,000 a month FYI. So how about I just do this? And she's like, well, OK.
Dave Moss (49:48.049)
That's worked out.
Andrew (49:50.094)
It's worked out so far. We'll see. Drury's still out.
Dave Moss (49:53.602)
I don't know about that. What would you say over the years has been the secret sauce for Fundy? Because I met you in, I think 2016 at a conference. You came up and talked to Abby and I after we gave a presentation. And I think I had briefly heard of your software at that point in time. It was you and one other competitor in the space. But now I feel like...
I know the problem, maybe you know the industry better than me, but you're the only name in the game that I hear people talk about these days. What helped? What helped you grow? Was it just you and your personality?
Andrew (50:36.438)
Well, well, so yes and no, I, I do. I read a book called, uh, the likability factor. I believe I could be wrong. I believe as Tim Sanders is the author. Uh, but the main, the main, uh, point is that all things being equal. People will buy something from someone they like.
but also all things being unequal, they'll still buy something from people they like. So you'll buy something from someone you like even if it's a lesser product, right? And so I think that helped is just, I like people, I like to make people happy, I like to help people be successful.
And well, I think that was important to get it off the ground, but I think that, you know, I was, uh, I, I worked hard to infuse that same attitude in the company as a whole. Right. So that when my employees interact with people, they, they have that same attitude as they, as they go forward. And then also, I think, um,
the, I can't remember where, I think it might even have been the same book. He talked about being a connector. And so I always try to connect people. Like if people's like, Oh, I got this problem or this is like, Oh, you need to talk to Bob or Jane or whoever, right. And connecting people and getting those connections so that, um, you have a whole network of people that are on your side as you're, you're trying to
Dave Moss (52:02.782)
Hmm.
Andrew (52:25.934)
push this, you know, I mean, oftentimes you're trying to push a boulder up a hill is it's usually how business is, right? So the more people you can have pushing on that boulder with you, the better.
Dave Moss (52:36.954)
Yeah, well, I mean, it was definitely you and your like ability that got us on board because you came up to us afterwards and said, are you guys selling albums? Yeah, yeah, kind of. I'm going to Skype you when you get back to Canada and I'm going to talk you through the process and the process that you talked us through on that, like we got home and maybe a week later, we had a Skype call. And you talked us through this album sales process, which I mean, we basically still use with minor modifications to this day and
Like that it was because of that conversation that it's like, no, like, if you're looking for album design software, you have to work with Andrew. And then I tell the story and then I tell them the sales tactic and they're like, Oh yeah. You know, but it was, it had nothing to do with your software. Would that like that, that wasn't what sold us. It, I mean, granted now it's, we couldn't live without it, but it was that sort of thing of like, we, we didn't know you from Adam, you came up to us, you introduced us and you said, let me provide value.
Andrew (53:19.032)
Oh.
Yeah.
Dave Moss (53:35.194)
and it was a game changer. So I don't know if I ever thanked you for that, but thank you.
Andrew (53:39.382)
Yeah. And you got to be a little fearless when you're talking. You just got to, I'm just going to go up and talk to people you don't know. But I'm also that guy. Like if I take an Uber, but it's how I get to the airport, man, I know that guy's whole life story.
Dave Moss (53:47.558)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (53:53.31)
That is such an impressive skill to me. I feel like there's times when I can turn it on. Like if I'm ever sitting alone at like a bar or a lunch counter, I will talk to everybody beside me. But if I'm on a plane, I'm like noise canceling headphones in, okay, fair enough.
Andrew (54:09.194)
Oh yeah, plane. I'm not a talker on the plane. Yeah. Well, I think that's rude because other people are trying to have their, their silence, right? If you're an Uber, there's nobody else there. So it's fine.
Dave Moss (54:15.471)
Yeah.
Dave Moss (54:20.139)
Yeah. But that's, I mean, that's a good secret sauce. And I've worked with other people in your company and I think that you have imparted that you've passed that on because everybody seems to be just very people forward and like of service, which isn't always the case with organizations.
Andrew (54:38.122)
If you want to get better at it, the easy question is, so you from here?
Dave Moss (54:43.825)
Yeah, it's true.
Andrew (54:45.291)
That's it. That's that just in this, whatever they answer, ask a question about that. And then just keep asking questions.
Dave Moss (54:48.706)
Yeah. I loved when I backpacked solo through Europe in my gap year. And that was, it was the easiest thing in the world because you're at a hostel or you're at a bar and it's like, so where are you from? That was it. And then this like led into conversations and everything. And then I got home to Canada and I'm like, God damn it. Everybody's from here. Now what I do.
Andrew (55:01.098)
Yep.
Andrew (55:10.742)
But people, yeah, but people move around, right? So you're like, you're from here? Nah, I grew up in, you know, south of here, over here, whatever. Or, oh, I'm here from, I'm from here, but my parents are from Indiana, or whatever.
Dave Moss (55:18.804)
Yeah, just opens the door.
Dave Moss (55:24.)
Yeah, I think the other piece to that too is being actually interested in the answer.
Andrew (55:28.906)
Oh yeah, if you don't care, it's pretty evident.
Dave Moss (55:32.406)
Yeah, yeah, I talked with a mutual friend of ours, Joss, recently, and we were talking about conversation. It's another episode. And we were like, you know, he's such a dialoger. And it was this like concept of being really interested. And he said that.
Part of conversation is when you listen, it's a temporary abdication of power. Like you like release yourself from that moment to really just like give them the spotlight for that moment. And it's a, I thought that was a really interesting concept. Cause if you're not interested, everybody could tell.
Andrew (56:05.578)
Oh yeah, it's really hard to have a conversation if you don't care. Yeah.
Dave Moss (56:08.182)
Yeah, yeah. So speaking of photography, I was reading, I was researching you, even though I've known you for years. Somewhere, I don't remember where it was, somewhere on one of your bios on some website somewhere, it mentioned that you were an iron chef photographer.
Andrew (56:27.574)
So I, in Japan, there are Iron Chef restaurants. So basically, if you become an Iron Chef by going through this whole process, it's really, really hard, you can open a restaurant and then you can dub it an Iron Chef restaurant. So there, close to us, there was this big giant tower and at the top of the tower were three Iron Chef restaurants, a French,
Japanese and Italian. Oh no, not an Italian, Asian fusion restaurant. And those restaurants had weddings in them. So I was a wedding photographer contracted at Iron Chef restaurants, which is kind of a big deal there. And I think I was the first non-Japanese wedding photographer in Japan.
Dave Moss (57:21.592)
I love that you don't know. You're like, probably.
Andrew (57:22.05)
I think so. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Could be wrong, but.
Dave Moss (57:28.133)
Yeah. What got you into wedding photography? You went over there to teach English, you owned an English school, how did you end up a wedding photographer?
Andrew (57:33.418)
Yeah, I mean, I took some black and white photography in college and then it was just kind of cool back then, you know, your Vaughn and Joe Boosink and all this, you know, photography was changing and what photography is changing and it was kind of in the news and then the digital SLRs came out and everybody was on all these forums trying to figure out how white balance worked. Which is really hard. Now it's easy, but man, holy smokes. There was like all these
Dave Moss (57:56.11)
Yeah.
Andrew (57:59.586)
doodads you would put in front of your lens and take a picture of to try to get your white balance wrong and it would still be wrong. And through that there was just a lot of wedding photographers and so I kind of got interested in wedding photography and then I would you know see what these guys and gals were doing that was so different out there and I just became really interesting and I was interested in it and I had a friend and he was like oh my friend's family owns a
Photo studio, do you want a second shoot for them? Okay
Dave Moss (58:36.122)
And then the next thing you know, there you are, Iron Chef restaurant official photographer, first non-Japanese wedding photographer.
Andrew (58:41.458)
Yeah, I remember there was, and we would shoot film and I remember being at a, like when, cause I was in a small town area. So I would go to a wedding and everybody's Japanese and there's me, the, the super Caucasian pasty guy, and there was one wedding and I was shooting and it was the cake cutting, right? Which you don't want to miss the cutting of the cake. And I was shooting and, uh,
one of my cameras ran out of film. And so I hit the auto rewind, took some photos with the other camera, and then I opened the back of the camera and it wasn't done. And the film just went, blah, blah. And everybody just turned and looked at me. And I was like. Shoot. Yeah, that was bad. Yeah. Oh, we had two shooters, so it was fine. Yeah. It was. Yeah, yeah.
Dave Moss (59:36.046)
Yeah, it's, yeah, it all balances out. It's like one of those things, you have backups cause it's not, it's not if, it's a when. So you've mentioned this a couple of times. How did you end up in the Peace Corps in the former Soviet Union?
Andrew (59:40.209)
Sorry.
Andrew (59:53.098)
Well, because there was the coup d'etat in Western Africa.
Dave Moss (59:57.934)
Of course.
Andrew (01:00:00.935)
So I, so I went to the University of Oregon, a very hippie school. And, uh, my, my parents were big fans of, uh, JFK who started the Peace Corps. And, um, I had a degree in literature, so I didn't have any job prospects. And I went over, you know, I went and traveled around Europe and I was like, Oh, how can I go back overseas? If I have no money.
And so, you know, I was like, oh, the Peace Corps, and I might've seen a flyer or whatever. And so I just applied, and when you apply, they send you somewhere. I was supposed to go to Western Africa, and then I think like two weeks before I was supposed to leave, like I had sold everything. I sold my car, like I'd sold everything, and was like getting ready to go up my parents' house and like start packing. They're like, oh, so there was a coup d'etat.
And we've evacuated the embassy and stuff. So you can't go there and speak French, which you already know. Um, you can, you can go to Moldova, former Soviet union in like three weeks, or you can wait like two months and go to Guinea Bissau in Western Africa. And I was like, well, I don't have enough money for two months. I quit my job already. So I guess Eastern former Soviet union is.
Dave Moss (01:01:23.218)
So forgive my Canadian ignorance, but what does the Peace Chord do?
Andrew (01:01:30.758)
So the Peace Corps, now I don't know because like, so the Peace Corps' mission fundamentally was to send young college graduates to countries that were financially less, you know, less well off to share American ideas and help and...
So it was like half cultural exchange and half trying to help people. So a lot of volunteers would be teachers in schools, just teaching English, which is what I was doing. You know, and some people would like, a lot of people that were sent to Africa, they would be taught how to teach people how to dig a well or a latrine so people wouldn't get, you know, infectious diseases or whatever. So it was just a way for...
Dave Moss (01:02:24.81)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (01:02:28.85)
Ideally a way for the US to put boots on the ground for half cultural exchange and half helping.
Dave Moss (01:02:37.482)
Fair enough. I had no idea. I'm obviously aware of the Peace Corps, but just had no idea what they did.
Andrew (01:02:42.334)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and when you're there, you get like, I got paid like $200 a month. So you get paid roughly what someone, you know, a teacher in Moldova would get paid. And then, uh, maybe not even that. And then when you get back, when you get back, they give you $200 a month for every month you've served. So if you do two years, you get like $5,000 when you're done. Yeah. So it's, you don't do it for the money.
Dave Moss (01:03:05.226)
Fair enough. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:03:09.636)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:03:10.326)
But often, I mean, with me, the volunteer ends up learning way more than you taught because you were 22 or 23 and didn't really know much anyway.
Dave Moss (01:03:19.014)
Right. Yeah. Did you grow up in Portland area?
Andrew (01:03:26.026)
No, I was born in southern Oregon and then we moved all over Oregon. And high school I went, I was just outside of Portland in a small town called Sandy on the way to Mount Hood.
Dave Moss (01:03:41.135)
What is it like running a business in the same neighborhood as Nike?
Andrew (01:03:46.57)
very hard to find employees.
Dave Moss (01:03:50.228)
Fair enough. I bet... Oh, I got a visitor here. Hang on.
Andrew (01:03:54.238)
Yeah, it's Nike's weird because it's like its own little town. Like people, like you see the cars go in and then at the end of the day, the cars go out, but there's very little fraternizing with the community.
Dave Moss (01:04:05.594)
Interesting. I only am vaguely I didn't even know like I kind of knew Nike was in Oregon But it wasn't until the air movie that just recently came out where they know the location card came up and I'm like Hey, I don't have place
Andrew (01:04:11.67)
Yes.
Yeah.
Andrew (01:04:18.422)
Yeah, Nike campus is a half mile from our office. Like it's, I would, like when I go running from the office, I run a half a mile and then go on the Nike trail, do a couple laps and then come back in my Brooks running shoes.
Dave Moss (01:04:30.49)
Yeah, you run by in your brook shoes and say... Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:04:37.182)
Fair enough. Yeah, that's fascinating. I always find like places where there's like a, like one main business like that is always really, really interesting. Like Microsoft in Seattle.
Andrew (01:04:47.818)
Yeah, well, it's, we're, it's a hard spot because we have Nike and Intel and Columbia all within like seven miles. And there's a few other big tech people too. So it's, it's hard to find employees sometimes when you have turnover.
Dave Moss (01:05:09.466)
Yeah. How do you get them? What's the hook? Give me the Fundy sales pitch.
Andrew (01:05:13.324)
Um, so we.
So if anybody is listening and wants some tips on how to find and hire people, especially if you're competing with the big boys, so I have the 11amclub.com has my job template. So if you go to the 11amclub.com, but you really, I mean, obviously you just have to target people that don't want to work in a large organization, right? And there's a lot of people that don't like that, right? So, you know, we lead with values.
Dave Moss (01:05:29.274)
Oh, there you go. I'll link it in the show notes.
Dave Moss (01:05:39.825)
Hmm.
Andrew (01:05:46.078)
people that want to, you know, help other people, people that want to, you know, they're wired to, to want to help with the metrics that are important.
You know, and, and.
Andrew (01:06:07.338)
You know, people that want to be the hero, like, you know, we have like two people on our marketing team versus if you work at Nike, like you could work at Nike for five years and there's people that hire ups that don't even know you exist.
You know, so you don't get to be the hero. You're just kind of a cog in the wheel doing your thing.
You're paid better Because it's Nike dollars which are better than then fundi software dollars But you don't get to be the hero
Dave Moss (01:06:35.326)
Hehehe
Dave Moss (01:06:43.946)
It's a good way to look at it. Smaller organization, more impact. Yeah.
Andrew (01:06:48.15)
Yeah, so you just, you know, if you try to hire someone that's wired to wanna work at Nike, then you're gonna fail, right? You gotta hire someone that's wired, that wants to work at the company you created.
Dave Moss (01:06:59.422)
Yeah. So, multiple languages, English Lit major, spent time in Europe, Peace Corps, Japan, Fundy software, running, longevity. What have I missed? Oh, Vans. What have I missed on your journey? Like has there been anything, people, parents, mentors, things that have shaped you?
Andrew (01:07:18.018)
bands. Yeah.
Dave Moss (01:07:28.49)
Obviously you're a big reader, but has there been anything else that you feel like has contributed to where you are today?
Andrew (01:07:30.37)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:07:40.586)
Well, so for... I joke, but it's somewhat true. I come from a long line of poor people. So I think that part of it also is that, you know, my grandfather was a Dust Bowl baby, right? He was a, I think there were nine kids in his family, and like, no, there were 11, and I think...
didn't make it out of childhood, like they died and they were, you know, they were dust bowl workers, farmers, abject poverty, and then my father was the first person to go to college, right, and he was able to go to college because he got a wrestling scholarship, and so I think part of it is just is
And I think this is important too, because I think people are a little too focused on themselves sometimes. As part of it is just seeing yourself also in the family journey.
Dave Moss (01:08:47.499)
more about that.
Andrew (01:08:47.786)
Right? So part of, you know, part of my job is to improve upon what was created for me.
Dave Moss (01:08:58.43)
Hmm.
Andrew (01:08:59.658)
you know, where, you know, all of our, all of our parents are deeply flawed and have their own issues. But for the most part, not always, for the most part, parents want something better for their kids, right? So the flip side of that is that as a child, part of your job is to take responsibility to take what they've given you.
and not focus on what they fucked up because they all they have. We all have, you know, that's part of the journey, but take, take what they've given you and then see if you can make things a little bit better for the next generation, whether they're your kids or someone else's kids. And part of that is, is kind of doing the best you can with what you are given. As an example for everybody else.
Dave Moss (01:09:31.633)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:09:53.902)
Does that make sense?
Dave Moss (01:09:54.842)
Yeah, at what time in your life did that come on?
Andrew (01:10:02.71)
Well, I think...
Andrew (01:10:06.654)
I think part of it was always there and it's a good thing and a very bad thing is that I always responded well to praise, right? So I always wanted to make my coaches proud or my teachers proud or my parents proud or whoever was investing time in me, I wanted to.
you know, I wanted them to be happy with what I was doing. Right, and then, so when you're younger, that kind of gets you through. Like you're like, hey, look, mom, dad, look what I did. Or hey, you know, high school teachers that I haven't seen in five years, look what I did. And so that kind of gets you going, but that's kind of looking back. And then when you get older, you know, part of it is kind of setting an example for your own kids or other people around you, or...
you know, people that might be 10, 15 years younger than you, kind of helping ease that path and that journey for other people. And so I think that there's, and I don't know when this happens, but you know, there's a point when you're younger in your journey, you wanna prove to people that you have taken their advice.
and done well or teaching or you know, you want to make them proud or at least, or just happy that they invested time in you.
And then as you get older, there's this switch that happens when you're, when you're get to the point where you kind of want to shoulder that responsibility to help create paths and systems and, and journeys that are easier for the people that are coming behind you, right. Whether it, and you can do it, you know, maybe it's your family.
Andrew (01:12:13.502)
and your kids, you know, maybe it's your neighborhood, maybe it's your town, maybe it's your, the photographic community, but there's a point when you wanna like shoulder responsibility to make the world, however big or small that is, a bit better.
Andrew (01:12:35.646)
in your own way. And as you get older, there's.
Dave Moss (01:12:35.686)
What is it? Yeah.
Andrew (01:12:44.438)
You know, once you've kind of got to the point where, okay, we have got a house to live in, kids are out of college, a lot of people will, I don't know, lose their desire to keep moving forward. Like, okay, I'm done, I'm gonna sit in the barcode lounge and watch TV until I die. Right? And I think that the only way to move beyond that is to continue to shoulder more and more responsibility for
making the world a better place for other people.
Dave Moss (01:13:20.364)
What does that look like to you? What does a better world look like for you?
Andrew (01:13:25.038)
So, well, that's the fun part is that you can't make everything better in the world. I don't care who you are, right? You're not going to fix all the problems. So you...
Andrew (01:13:43.734)
If you've been able to spend a lot of time being reflective on who you are, how you've helped other people, how other people have helped you, you're able to lean more and more into your strengths. And
Andrew (01:14:02.454)
For me.
One of the things I feel like I'm good at is I'm good at helping people make more money. And I know that sounds superficial, but it's really not because that's what gives you freedom. That gives you, it helps you sleep better at night. It helps you send your kids to college. You know, and whether that be through products or helping people with their businesses or whatever, but that
Dave Moss (01:14:21.31)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (01:14:31.702)
So, but that's only a piece of the puzzle. So what I really wanna focus on is I think for me, if I can help individuals become more successful.
in whatever they want to do, then the world will become a better place.
Dave Moss (01:14:50.066)
Right.
Andrew (01:14:50.998)
Right, so, you know, it doesn't matter what people define that success to be. It might be, it could be political activism. It could be environmental, it could be business, it could be, you know, helping people heal past trauma, whatever that is. But if I can help them be more successful in whatever their core strength is, then that
will help me kind of amplify my own strengths.
Dave Moss (01:15:26.586)
Are there some... No, I love that. That's a good answer. Are there some... Oh, hang on. Jake will edit this out. My dog wants to go...
Andrew (01:15:26.766)
That was a really long answer.
Dave Moss (01:15:37.814)
Um, are there some?
commonalities you see in people that are holding them back from that success in whatever it is, business, life, and personal growth.
Andrew (01:15:58.026)
Yes, so.
Andrew (01:16:03.362)
The, I think it's an old Yogi Berra quote, is whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right.
Dave Moss (01:16:13.47)
Hmm.
Andrew (01:16:15.69)
So a lot of it is self-defeating talk.
Andrew (01:16:23.446)
themselves, oh I can't do that, so and so can, but I can't. Or, and so part of it is that, is just deciding, like eventually you just gotta let all the shit go and just decide if you're gonna do the thing or not. Right, it doesn't matter what that is. You know, and then also I think, I think there is,
especially among creatives, like there is this feeling that it's bad to want things. Right. It's okay to want things. If you want a boat to go water skiing, cool.
Dave Moss (01:16:59.91)
Yes. Yeah.
Andrew (01:17:09.654)
Get a boat to go on. And if you don't want that cool, like I don't care about water skiing boats. Yeah. This does. I don't care if you want to cool. If you want it great. Um, and then, uh, I think also when
Dave Moss (01:17:14.758)
Yeah. But if you want it, go get it. Yeah.
Andrew (01:17:28.682)
When people aren't honest with themselves, and you've probably seen this, like they say they want something or they say they're trying to build something, but then they continually fail to do that, it's usually because they feel like they don't deserve it and they end up self-sabotaging.
Dave Moss (01:17:47.305)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, fear of success.
Andrew (01:17:52.906)
Yeah. So, you know, part of it is, is convincing yourself that you deserve whatever you want, right? And, and, uh, the secret is
Everybody deserves what they want. So why not you too?
Dave Moss (01:18:13.063)
Yeah.
That's great. That's good. Free coaching advice from Andrew Funderberg. I appreciate it. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. Where can people find you? We talked about the 11 a.m. club, but if people wanna find you, maybe learn more from you, or learn more about what you're doing, is there any place they can hunt you down?
Andrew (01:18:20.396)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:18:36.938)
Yeah, so I've been involved in a few different projects recently. Outside Fundi designer, Fundi designer is still my core focus. And that's what I focus on day to day. Um, but I have, if you go to passive returns.com, you can see Fundi designer and the social design app. Um, I'm helping a friend launch a construction project management software, completely different. But.
Dave Moss (01:19:04.689)
Yeah.
Andrew (01:19:06.25)
Right, it's all about helping him put the systems in place underneath. Um, and then another friend that is helping, um, experts launch, uh, recurring revenue businesses in their field. So if you go to passive returns.com, you can, you can check that out. And then if you are in the need to hire somebody to help take the work off load, the, the 11 AM club has some, uh, help with that with. Uh, how to, how to.
write a job ad that gets the person you need instead of someone just like you that's gonna have your own faults in place. And things that I had to learn the hard way, like how to run a meeting. It's not, and it's always the opposite of how you think it's gonna be.
Dave Moss (01:19:38.6)
Hmm.
Dave Moss (01:19:48.519)
Yeah, you'd think it's easy, but it's not. There's a skill involved there. Yeah. Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks, Andrew. This has been a joy. It's always a great time talking to you.
Andrew (01:20:00.95)
Thanks so much, Dave. Now I'm going to go eat my etouffee.
Dave Moss (01:20:04.894)
So fancy.