Amanda Bundy - Why Is Friendship So Challenging?

Show Notes

Amanda Bundy - Why Is Friendship So Challenging? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert:
Welcome to the Why God Why Podcast. I am here with our remarkable producer Nate. We are in a new room with the illustrious co-host Aaron Mercer.

Aaron Mercer:
Wow.

Peter Englert:
This is new space, new room. I do have to come up with a new title for you.

Aaron Mercer:
Yeah, that's okay. I mean illustrious, that works I guess. But yeah, if you're watching on YouTube, then you can tell we have a different background right now than normal, but our wonderful producer Nathan Yoder has moved us over and he's upgrading us. Yes there. Way, that's right. Well played, well played.

Peter Englert:
So I will tell you this. We are brought to you by Browncroft Community Church. We exist to respond to the questions that you don't feel comfortable asking in church, and today we have a special guest. We have a new staff person, she's going to be introducing herself. She's Amanda Bundy from the great city, the All-America city of Buffalo, and the question she's answering is why is friendship so challenging? Aaron, what do you think?

Aaron Mercer:
I'm, first of all, glad that you're on staff with us now Amanda.

Amanda Bundy:
Thank you.

Aaron Mercer:
And it's a blessing to have you as part of the Browncroft team, and really glad that we get to sit down and have a podcast interview with you too. And this question is of course a great question, I'm looking forward to having this little kind of coffee conversation. It's fun.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah.

Peter Englert:
Coffee Talk with Aaron.

Amanda Bundy:
We're just missing the coffee. I need my caramel macchiato.

Aaron Mercer:
Yeah. Nate, come on. You got to get on that Nate. [inaudible 00:01:46].

Amanda Bundy:
Next thing is coffee.

Aaron Mercer:
Yeah, no, but this is great. But Amanda, I mean we've had a chance to talk a little bit as you've come onto staff here, and actually got to meet you last summer, which was cool, back in Buffalo. But maybe for our listeners, can you give a little bit of background on how you got to Browncroft, how you got to wear you right now? Also, maybe a little bit of what you do here at the church.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, that's great. I love telling the story because it's a lot of cool ways that God has worked. Went to school to be an elementary education teacher, but always wanted to work in vocational ministry. And so, I taught fourth grade for eight years, and every time I'd get my contract, I would just ask God, the renewal contract at the end of the year like, "Lord, I really want to work at a church. Can you please provide this? And if not, I will faithfully serve you at this school." And I did, and I loved it more and more every year teaching at St. Peter's in Sanborn, New York.

Amanda Bundy:
And interestingly enough, after when COVID hit, I got a message from a couple leaders in my church, and they said, "Hey, you switched out of the Worship Team. You're trying to figure out where to serve. We just want to know how that's going for you and where you're at ministry-wise." And my friends, knowing my prayers, said, "They're going to offer you a job." I'm like, "No, they're not. They're not going to offer me a job."

Amanda Bundy:
And they offered me a job, and just with how faithfully I've served they wanted me as their Volunteer Coordinator. And so, just loved doing that and working with those people that I knew and loved and being on mission with them. And then, that was in July in 2020 that started, and then in November of 2020, as I was on this dating app, I met a guy named Nick D'Angelo. And things went really well, to the point where now I'm engaged and moved to Rochester and working in this church that he's been going to since he was four.

Amanda Bundy:
So that's how it all panned out because when we were getting serious, I said, "I don't know where I'm going to work. It feels like a black hole. Can you just ask if they're hiring at Browncroft?" And you guys were, so now I am Groups Coordinator for the student ministry here. I help lead the leaders and equip them and encourage them for what they're doing. And I also help with the young adult ministry to see how we can grow and help that develop.

Peter Englert:
Awesome.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah.

Peter Englert:
So the three of us have something in common. We have all moved to our spouse's hometown.

Amanda Bundy:
Really?

Peter Englert:
Or to the significant other, I should say, right?

Aaron Mercer:
Soon to be your spouse, right.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, soon to be. May 14th.

Peter Englert:
I was dating Robin in Philadelphia, and I moved to Rochester. Now, my wife is very kind, but her famous last words were, "Somebody's moving, and it's not me."

Aaron Mercer:
Is that what Nick said too, or no?

Amanda Bundy:
He was just like, "Yeah, I can't do this." His roots were just so deep, and I always was open-handed with where I would live. I just really was surrender to God in that. Not that Nick wasn't, Nick knew what God was calling him to. But for me, it was God will go wherever you want me to go, and good thing my heart was in that place because that's what he had planned.

Peter Englert:
And Aaron, you were kind of 50/50 with it.

Aaron Mercer:
Well, we were down in the Washington DC area for a while, but it was time we come back, come back north, so we're thankful we're here.

Peter Englert:
So I promise I'm going somewhere with this.

Amanda Bundy:
Okay.

Peter Englert:
So instead of backing up with your history, what's been the best and hardest thing about moving to a new city with a significant other and trying to build new relationships?

Amanda Bundy:
Great question. I honestly think it's just the complexity of everything that's new to me. So I never really dated anyone seriously before Nick. There was little relationships here and there that started well and then fizzled out. So the fact that I'm in a very serious relationship that's leading towards marriage, I am wedding planning, I've moved somewhere now, trying to figure out an apartment of where to live, started a new job in a church which we all know is very involved. There's so many things that you can do, the list is never-ending of how to help people and support people. And then, getting to know those people first and foremost, and being in a different kind of ministry.

Amanda Bundy:
I taught fourth grade, knew my element there. I was in volunteer coordination at the chapel, which was just so broad and it was guest engagement. I kind of knew how the service would work. It was mainly Sunday mornings. But now, I'm back in student ministry. I served in student ministry at my first church, so that change is something to adjust to as well.

Amanda Bundy:
So I think ... And I'm so busy that it's hard to be building new friendships. But the good thing is that I've been through this before and I kind of know how this works of building new friendships. And the other aspect of it too is that Nick has got a wonderful community of people here because his roots are so deep here, and his people have become my people. And I'm just really enjoying getting to know everyone here and building those friendships with them.

Peter Englert:
I was going to ask you about that because in my story, I moved here, and I have really great friends, so listeners hear this. My wife is part of a great small group, and my best friend, you're actually staying at his house, Mike Keys.

Amanda Bundy:
Yep, beautiful house.

Peter Englert:
But I think what I struggled with was I was just leaving Phoenixville when I felt like I had the best friend in the world. And I just ... So it's funny, my wife, hopefully my friend's not listening to this because I think it's a surprise party, but between Good Friday and Easter, I'm driving down to Pennsylvania to visit my friend for his birthday. And my wife's like, "You really miss them." And I love Browncroft, I love the people here, but I think it was really hard for me to once you have those deep relationships to move to a new place, it just takes a lot of work. I don't know, does that resonate with you, or?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh, absolutely. And I think because I'm in such a busy season, I haven't had time to sit in that loss of not being so close with my friends, because my best friend Rachel and I, we used to see each other once a month and it was like a full day affair. And then with my friends, like Heather, Dana, Melanie, Nicole, we all had a small, closely-knit community group that we would just every week, we would be asking each other, every day, "How is things going? What's a followup with that situation?", praying for each other.

Amanda Bundy:
And they were such godly friends, because I was going back. Once I moved here, I said, "I'll keep coming back to our meetings. I'll still be in community group." And I was exhausted doing that. Buffalo's not that far away, but with everything else, it can get taxing. And they lovingly said to me, "I think you need to build your roots in Rochester." And that, to me, was just the biggest thing because it freed me to make the choice I knew in my heart I needed to make, but also showed me that what Godly mature friends I have to let me go.

Amanda Bundy:
So I think that will hit me soon once wedding planning is over and we get settled and I'm like, "I really miss my friends." But, we do stay connected really well, which is good.

Peter Englert:
One of the reasons people come to church, not the main reason, and you're kind of in this with our young adults, is somewhere down the list there's, "I want to find my tribe and my community, whether it's my small group." What do you think is the biggest misconception that you see with people as you help them find their place, find their tribe?

Amanda Bundy:
Wow, that's a great question. I think a lot of people think it will come to them naturally without any effort from them. I think that they expect people to approach them and be friends with them, like to initiate that, and the reality is that we kind of have to seek after what we want.

Amanda Bundy:
I know for me when I moved out of my parents' house at 25 and I moved to Kenmore, which is a suburb of Buffalo, and started going to chapel, and I was seeking deep friendships, godly friendships. People who loved Jesus, was on fire for him, and would challenge me and my faith and call out the sin in me, or just make me a better follower of Christ. And I was like surely this has to be the chapel, this church is huge, and I did find it. But I had to put myself out there to say, "I am going to go to the women's bible study where I know no one. I am going to ask the singles group, where it's supposed to be for 30s but I was 26, I'm going to ask, "Hey, can I come anyway?" I had to put myself out there and say, "Okay God this is what I want, and I'm going to go after it."

Amanda Bundy:
But a lot of people don't do that. They think that it's just going to come naturally, and you have to put the effort in and put yourself out there, which is hard. I'm an extrovert, so I was nervous about that, but I know for introverts it's crippling for them to think of going somewhere where they don't know anyone. So that's what I would say is just the misunderstanding when it comes to seeking out friendships, and especially as a young adult too.

Aaron Mercer:
I think that this is a fascinating conversation, and I know the subject of [inaudible 00:11:39] friendship be challenging, I think I probably said that the wrong way Peter, I'm sorry, but yeah, this conversation I think it's timely too. You moved because of a relationship and also a job change, but really the relationship we know, and we talked about that. But there's people who have been at any time they'd be moving places for jobs.

Aaron Mercer:
We're taping this in March, two years after this pandemic started, and there's a lot of people ... I think there's a lot of friendships that have changed in that time just by people having to change how they interact with people just by necessity. So I think it's really interesting.

Aaron Mercer:
But you were talking just now about having to build new friendships in your new context, having to get out there and just make that a priority and do that. But I'm curious, you said you're an extrovert, but why is it important to do that? There is work there, and there's also making yourself vulnerable. So why would you say it's so important that people be taking that step in the first place? Is that really helpful to them, or should they just buckle down and put their mind into their work?

Amanda Bundy:
That's great too. I think that a lot of people, especially even in me with the busy season, I could live life independently easily, or so I think. Under the surface, there's so many other things going on, there's so many struggles we face, having only our own narrative in our minds is not really healthy. And especially coming out of COVID where it's easy to just be glued to your phone or secluded in your house or not go to those social events, it's almost like you're living on this island.

Amanda Bundy:
And people miss out on spiritual growth and opportunities to come out of emotional or mental health, and that's not belittling people who actually need help this is someone who just struggles to get involved. I think that there's a lot of growth and health and healing that can happen in community, and especially one where if you're patient enough to seek out the healthy ones, it's life-changing. It's absolutely life-changing. Yeah.

Aaron Mercer:
What about someone ... What would you say to ... I'm just trying to think of different scenarios here, but someone who might think, "You know what? I did miss some friends during the pandemic period," but in some ways maybe it was a relief in terms of not having to ... Sometimes friendships can get messy. I mean what do you think about there's a level of work that needs to be put in there, what would you say to those people?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah, friendship is work. It is. And it comes with the desire and the need and the expectation to be willing to forgive and have those confrontations and conflict and conversations for reconciliation. I mean we are all imperfect people. We are all going to make mistakes. We are all going to say things we shouldn't say. We're all going to have these ugly sides of us that we just get angry when we shouldn't or we say something unfiltered.

Amanda Bundy:
And the reality is that being in a friendship with someone who will walk with you even in those ugly times is huge because then they can say, "Hey, you really hurt my feelings," or, "What did you actually mean by that when you said that?", or, "I'm really lonely right now and it feels like we're not hanging out as much as I would like." Those kinds of things, it just helps a person to think outside of themselves and to be selfless and just have that companion to walk through life with.

Amanda Bundy:
It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. And I think knowing that ahead of time, because a lot of people I think walk into friendships like, "Oh, I just want someone to text all the time," or have those Instagram posts or we like to go to these really cool spots. And it's like for me, I want something so much deeper than that. I didn't want a surface level friendship. I wanted those people who I looked and them and said, "I want to be like them as a Christian. I want to live the way that they live. I want to study the bible. I'm going to pray the way that they do. I'm going to serve the way they do. I'm going to host the way that they do." And so, I think if people had the same expectations going into friendship, it can foster this beautiful development as a person.

Peter Englert:
And I love where you two are going with this conversation because I think the assumption is you're a Christian podcast, and I think most people want friends but they don't necessarily see the value of it. As you were talking, one of my favorite articles to share with people, because I think some of the men in our audience are like, "Well, Amanda's a woman, of course she needs friends," and I think that's a stereotype. But Billy Baker from the Boston Globe wrote this article, the biggest threat facing men is not obesity, it's not smoking, it's loneliness.

Peter Englert:
And I actually think this is somewhere where men and women kind of connect in some ways. You're in your 20s and you have this unrealistic expectation, I'm going to date myself here, whether you watch the Friends sitcom, How I Met Your Mother, How I Met Your Father now, I'm back in, where we talk about that romantically, the unrealistic expectations. But I don't know people that go to the bar every night, so I'm just kind of using that ... And then in your 30s, you get married, and it's not like the Friends TV show ended when they're there, so what does friendship look like in your 30s?

Peter Englert:
You get to your 40s, where your kids are in high school potentially. And then you get to your 50s, and I think that that's what this article's talking about, and I think that's what you're pointing out is you get to this point in life and you now have this time or you now have needs and you realize, whether you're a Christian or not a Christian, not having these relationships in your life is significantly hindering those.

Amanda Bundy:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So when I really committed my life to the Lord when I was 17, I would sit, be writing my paper in college and watching the Friends show and thinking I just want friends like that. I just want people that know me and we just hang out all the time and they just walk into my room in my house and just we hang out. It was that community aspect that someone is walking with you through life, they know the things that are going on in your life. And just that person you can always go to and talk to.

Amanda Bundy:
But if we get too busy the things that we're doing in our lives and put that ahead of friendship instead of walking with someone through that, we miss out on that later on in life and look back and say, "I have no one. I have absolutely no one."

Peter Englert:
So let's talk about this. I think would all of us acknowledge that the most awkward part of friendship is the moment you meet someone and then the process where it's like you're best friends, or we'll just say friends. We won't even put that pressure. So in your life, that awkward middle where you throw yourself out there, I'm not even going to compare it to dating, but what does that look like? Because I think that that's the question that people have, this is why it's so challenging. How do I put myself out there? How do I be friends with someone?

Amanda Bundy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, no, this is great. I feel like I've been through the gamut of different things. So in 2013, I was a camp counselor and I met this girl named Tammy, and we instantly hit it off. I knew this girl was a close friend for life, and still this day it's true. So I've had that experience, but it's rare, it's only happened once.

Amanda Bundy:
And then even with my friend Rachel, I met her around the same time, but it was a very slow development of how we became friends. It took a couple years actually. And it was like this, "What are we? Are we ..." You want to easily put and fastly put a label on it, and I think I did that in my most desperate time for friends. I did that too quickly. Instead of actually being patient with it and open-handed with it and slowly getting to know someone and just saying, "I desperately want a friend. I want a best friend. I want my companion. I want my person that I text all the time." But so say, "I'm going to just see how this goes."

Amanda Bundy:
And it's funny you mentioned dating because as I was thinking through this podcast we'd be having I was like this sounds so much like dating. I mean it really is. You got to just almost date your friends. And interestingly enough, I love telling this story, so my friend Dana, who's now going to be in my wedding, she saw me from the worship team at the chapel and she's like, "This girl has so much joy. She loves the Lord. I want to get to know this girl." And she sought me out to be friends with me, asked for my number from a mutual friend, said, "Can we meet for Panera?" I thought she was nuts. I'm like this girl's got to have an ulterior motive.

Amanda Bundy:
And she didn't. She just saw my heart for the Lord and said, "That's the kind of person I want to be friends with." And so, I think it can be really awkward and, like I said, you want to slap a label on it right away and say, "This is my friend," but if we can be open-handed and patient with it, things will go a lot smoother. A lot smoother.

Peter Englert:
As you've been making new friends, whether it's in the past or it's now when you're developing new friendships, what do you feel like you learn about yourself through that process? Do you see different elements of yourself when you're in a new context? And on the flip side, just an add-on question there and you can answer however you want. That's the beauty of having multiple part questions. You're in a different context with your previous friends who you mentioned the women that you had got to know real well and was a small group with. And it's a new context. You're still friends.

Amanda Bundy:
Totally.

Peter Englert:
I'm sure if one of them, their car broke down on the highway, you'd probably get out there and get out to Buffalo and go help them.

Amanda Bundy:
Yep.

Peter Englert:
But what are you learning about yourself through that change of context with the previous friends also?

Amanda Bundy:
Wow. I think that ... I'll speak to definitely the past, and I hope I don't sound like a broken record. But I think I've learned about myself that, and Nick actually pointed this out to me when we started dating because I would mention a couple friendships and he's like, "Wow, you really like mutual investment." I'm like, "What?" And he said, "You want to be friends with people who give the same amount of effort to you as you give to them." I was like, "Oh, wow, that is so true." I didn't realize it.

Amanda Bundy:
And so that through this process of friendships that have ebbed and flowed and are not as strong as they used to be, I want people to love me and support me and encourage me just as much as I'm doing for them because I'm an all-in person. I give everything to everything I do, and that sometimes makes me feel like I'm going to break down any moment. But I've learned that I want that, and I want something deeper.

Amanda Bundy:
And I will not be the friend who just listens. I will listen. I will give that time when they're hurting for sure. But for someone to repetitively be in a bad spot and not seek growth or how do I change or be open-handed with how God wants to work, I'll not be their friend that just says, "It's okay. You can just stay right where you're at," because I care about them too much.

Amanda Bundy:
A friend recently was talking to me about something and I said, "I know you want to hear from me that it's okay what you're doing, but I love you too much to say that. I'm going to tell you that you shouldn't be doing this, but it's okay. And if you want my help in this, we can walk through that together." Because that's what I'd want in return, I'd wan that too to say, "Don't just tell me something because you think you're going to hurt my feelings." Like the bible says, "The wounds of a friend are faithful," I would rather be hurt by my friend than hurt by a stranger because I know that they have my best interests in mind.

Peter Englert:
I'm blanking because I think we talked about this. Do you know your Enneagram number?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah, I'm a one actually.

Peter Englert:
Oh wow.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah. So, I ... Does that surprise?

Aaron Mercer:
No, I'm actually surprised that I actually know that means now. It's a longstanding thing here, Peter had been pushing me to figure out my Enneagram for a long time.

Peter Englert:
I was inviting you to do it.

Aaron Mercer:
Right, right. And you're not supposed to type people, but he was sort of typing me.

Amanda Bundy:
It's hard not to. It's hard not to.

Aaron Mercer:
And then, we actually had a guest on here not too long ago, and I-

Amanda Bundy:
Oh, I listened to it.

Aaron Mercer:
I was the Enneagram skeptic, and I still am a little skeptical, but I've learned a lot through that process, so thank you.

Peter Englert:
Can you tell our listeners where you think you [inaudible 00:25:25]?

Aaron Mercer:
I think Brian said that you should try on something for a little while. I think that the six seems to fit pretty well. But again, maybe it's because I am a six I don't want to be put in a box.

Peter Englert:
That's fine.

Aaron Mercer:
I'm a little skeptical still. But I know what one means now, that's the-

Amanda Bundy:
Yes, yes.

Peter Englert:
So no, it's just interesting-

Aaron Mercer:
But maybe you should tell it for the listeners who didn't listen to the other-

Peter Englert:
You know, this is why we're great co-hosts together.

Aaron Mercer:
Well there you go.

Peter Englert:
So like a one, I love the term reformer. Improver. Sometimes they're called the perfectionist-

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, it's like what's better than perfectionist? Yeah.

Peter Englert:
So I think what you're saying is you're looking for people in a relationship that are going to empower and encourage you to go towards improvement and betterment.

Amanda Bundy:
Absolutely, yeah.

Peter Englert:
So what happens if you don't have a friend like that?

Amanda Bundy:
That's so interesting. I think I kind of put it in its right spot because I want to be ... I don't know where this came from, but it's those concentric circles of you want your closest friend in your inner core, and then you have less connection or time or depth with the people outside the circle, and it just gets less and less from there.

Amanda Bundy:
So I think because I care about what I do with my time and because I'm all in with what I do, I think I try to assess and discern, in a loving way of course, where that friendship would lay. How does that friendship come into play in my time? Because if we try to be all things to all people all the time, we're going to get run down. But if I can have a shared expectation of where that friendship lays, and it works for the both of us, that's great.

Amanda Bundy:
And the sad reality is that if someone's expecting more out of you than you're not willing to give back, it's probably going to fizzle out and be in a different spot, which is just unfortunate at that point.

Peter Englert:
But I think what I'm hearing from you is you're willing to give 80% if someone's willing to give 80%, and maybe percentages isn't ... Like you're willing to go 10 steps if someone's willing to go 10 step. But what about the person that goes four steps, but to them that feels like 10 steps towards you?

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah. So in my head, I would change the expectation of what that friendship looks like. It's not like this person's going to be my bestie. It's not like this person is going to maybe know everything about my life and I'm going to divulge all this information to them and then expect to get help and support and encouragement from them back. It's more so that I'm stepping into that saying, "I would love to help them walk with them through life and help them grow in their faith or just be someone to hang out with." Or like Young Adults is going to Radio Social this Friday, like come on and hang out with us there.

Amanda Bundy:
So just assessing it for where it is so that I can give 100% and be authentic in that friendship rather than just kind of piecing out and saying I'm not going to be involved in this just because I'm not getting what I want in return.

Peter Englert:
So how do you know, because I think we're talking a little bit about chemistry and you shared one friend you knew instantly, another friend that took years, at what point do you say, "I like you. You're a great person. But we're probably not going to be friends."? How do you kind of differentiate and make those decisions?

Amanda Bundy:
I think that if it comes to the point where things just aren't clicking and there's confrontation or you're consistently being misunderstood or it just seems like one is more dominant than the other, things have to go their way and not yours, and there's no compromise or healthy conversation, I think you just have that conversation to say, "Maybe we should step back from this. Maybe we should take some time."

Amanda Bundy:
And I've been through that before. I had a conversation with someone and I knew we had different expectations for what the friendship should be. And it was very difficult, very difficult. But I think that if I were to at all change what I was going to give out of a friendship, I'd be changing who I was as a person.

Amanda Bundy:
So it's interesting that you bring up the Enneagram because I'm someone who sees the best in everyone. I see their potential. I'm like, "Oh man, I know if you just change this one thing you can get here." And that gets me into trouble sometimes because I've learned this over the years, I just want to fix people and give advice too quickly instead of taking that time to listen. But I am going to be that person that says, "Girl, you can go way further than you are going. I know you can make this," be their best cheerleader in life.

Amanda Bundy:
And so I think, just to go back to your question to say, you've got to be able and willing to have those tough conversations, to say, "I think we're just seeing this a little bit differently."

Peter Englert:
But don't you think most people give up right before a friendship's about to blossom or ... It's the hard middle, that's why this is so challenging.

Amanda Bundy:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think too, like I actually thought about the fact that I think I was in unhealthy relationships for too long, or friendships, because of my own lack of maturity and my own desires to be in community with people. Even when I was a little girl, I just wanted to be affirmed and loved and have community. That will always be the question that I ask is, "Am I worthy? Am I valuable?"

Amanda Bundy:
And I remember when I really committed my life to the Lord, it's because I distinctly heard him say to me, "I'm the love you're looking for." And so, because of that desire to have community and close friendships, I kind of took what I can get. I think a lot of people if they're in a better place in maturity and walk into a friendship knowing what they desire and want, I think they can get out more quickly unfiltered. But I think some people who are just desiring to be friends with someone, they stay too long. And then it's like, "Oh, as I'm growing, you're not growing with me." And then it's difficult, and we've got to have that conversation.

Amanda Bundy:
You're right, people will probably say, "This is not a friend I'm going to have forever," and then they kind of disperse. And I don't know if people really could handle that really well, I think they could have those conversations and lovingly say like, "Hey, maybe we should just hang out less." I don't know how that would go. To me, I've done it unhealthy in the past.

Peter Englert:
Well basically what you're saying is when you're healthy, it's so much easier to spot things when it's not healthy?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah, yes. And I highly recommend this book called Friend-Ish by Kelly Needham. I've only read one book on friendship, and I don't think I need to read any more than that one. It is tremendous. It goes through every healthy and unhealthy aspect of friendship in a Godly way. Whether you're Christian or not, it still has these values just to seek out the things, the blind spots almost, that you wouldn't really see.

Amanda Bundy:
But like you said Peter, if you're in a healthy spot, you're going to seek out healthy friendships. And I think that's when two people are in different spots spiritually, and I'm saying there's big gaps, not like little things, that's when conflict can happen in friendships a lot and it doesn't really work out.

Aaron Mercer:
Even what you were just saying, I thought that was interesting. What are those flashpoints that you would be wary of a potentially developing friendship versus what are maybe bumps in the road but there's still an important relationship there to build? I guess I'm thinking about I have friends or I have become friends with people over time that I probably wouldn't have initially looked for, but God put along my path. And just because we're different, that doesn't necessarily mean that ... You sharpen each other that way. You help each other. So there's a-

Peter Englert:
Let me help you. He's talking about our friendship.

Amanda Bundy:
Oh okay.

Peter Englert:
He's like, "Peter's really different, and the more I get to know-"

Amanda Bundy:
It's getting real.

Aaron Mercer:
That would be one example, sure. No. No, but I think that ... I guess what I'm wondering is what are the things that you should be looking out for to not move forward versus things that even though this is kind of hard, it doesn't mean it's not good?

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, and I want to say this too. I probably should clarify. When I'm speaking about friends, I'm almost thinking about my inner core of friends, the people who I go to for problems, prayer requests, just with really deep stuff. They know what's going on in my life. And obviously, there's going to be friends, like I talk about the circles, that are a little more on the outskirts of things, and I have friends there that are definitely different than I am for sure, it's just that it's not as deep as the other ones. And I think it's very healthy to have that.

Amanda Bundy:
Like my friend Rachel, we started being friends at CVS, and we would joke all the ... She's not a Christian, and we'd have these jokes about Christianity. She would, like she'd bring up dinosaurs, "Are they even real?" We'd just have crazy jokes about stuff, conversations I should say, and we're still friends to this day. We will text each other. Things have gotten busy, but I love spending time with her even though we are so different.

Amanda Bundy:
But I will say for those close friendships that you're looking for, the things that are red flags I would say is sensitivity without reconciliation. So if someone gets sensitive about something you say or do, because again we're all imperfect people, we're going to say and do things we shouldn't do in a friendship, especially when we get comfortable we're going to be unfiltered, again [inaudible 00:36:08] to dating and relationships, if they're not in a place to forgive you for those things and not move forward and talk through those things, it's probably a red flag to say this is not someone that I can grow with and be close with.

Amanda Bundy:
Like my best friend Rachel and I, we've had many conflicts over the years, and we are stronger every time we go through one of those. And it's not like we're fighting all the time, but when something comes up and we talk through it, it's gold. And I remember I had a friend in high school where she would hurt me a lot, but I never said anything ever, never said anything, because I didn't feel strong enough in who I was, I didn't have the confidence to do that and confront my needs and wants in a friendship. And it wasn't until later on I started developing in my faith, started growing in the Lord, and I finally said to her, "I really am not going to be treated like this anymore. It's got to stop." And we didn't talk for a while. And then after a little bit, she came back and said like, "I'm sorry," and we just are cordial now, which is good.

Amanda Bundy:
I'll say the positives. It's shared values. it's shared expectations in friendship. It's a safe place to just be yourself and know that there's going to be a way to work through those differences and conflict. And again, God keeps calling to mind be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. And a place where you can be honest and genuine to say, "I know this is kind of crazy, but I feel like you hurt me with this statement," or whatnot. So if you can't be real with someone, how are you really going to be close with them and grow if you're not telling them what's going on?

Aaron Mercer:
So I feel like there's probably people who I think could probably identify very much with what you're saying right now. There might also be some who think, "You know what? The friends that I have right now are either cordial but maybe from a ..." Or maybe they're the friends like the one in high school you were talking about before the reconciliation. So someone could be listening and thinking, "Well, how do I even find a friend like you're talking about who's closer?" I know you kind of hit on this a little bit at the beginning, but what should someone do to ... What have you found are helpful ways for people to be at least having their eyes open for something like that?

Amanda Bundy:
Prayer. First and foremost, pray. And I could tear up thinking about it because I remember those times when I was in college watching Friends, wanting those close-knit friends. And I think I did pray about it, but it wasn't until years later when I had kind of surface level friendship and I wanted friends with more depth. I remember a woman that I knew, she was getting married and my mom said, "Oh, all her bridesmaids are brand new friends to her because she really struggled with friendships growing up." And I thought, "Man, I really don't have that." And I was probably 20 at that time. I'm like, "I'm 20 years old, I don't have deep, close best friends."

Amanda Bundy:
And it wasn't until later, like I said, when I moved to chapel, I just fervently asked God, "Would you please provide these deep Godly friendships for me?", and just was consistent in that because God wants that. God doesn't want you to be an island. I may have said that already. He wants you to live life with someone and grow.

Amanda Bundy:
So I would say prayer. I would say just starting somewhere in your church, especially if you are a Christian start there. If you're not, see what sports are happening in your area and what can you get involved with the city or how can you serve your city and your town? Go around people who are doing the same things you want to be doing so that you have some kind of mutual interest, and then you can grow from there with that.

Aaron Mercer:
Actually, I wondered if that might come up because I was curious, and you've had experience as you were helping with volunteers at the previous church you worked at and you were working with students certainly now, but also young adults, post-college I think is basically what that is. So have you found that that's a good way for people to kind of break the ice and start to get to know people better is by just working alongside each other? Working meaning serving in some capacity like going out and doing a Habitat for Humanity project or something like that?.

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah. I'm a big advocate for serving. I think it covers so many ground as a person and as a Christian as well. You're not only putting yourself out there to do something for a bigger cause than yourself, but you're also igniting the gifts and talents that you have, or seeing what you're not good at and then working through it to serve somewhere else. And you're doing something with someone side by side with the same mission in mind. And you don't know who's going to come along side of you and be right there. It could be a friend, it could be someone you're supposed to encourage, or it could be your future husband or wife. You don't know, but putting yourself out there to say, "I'm going to give of myself to serve the kingdom and serve this purpose," and God's going to bless that. I don't know how, but he's going to bless that for sure.

Peter Englert:
So I think it's actually pretty important because there's a book called The Search to Belong by Joseph Myers, and I think if you Google sociology ... So like you've talked about circles, and I feel like this is important for our listeners. If I was to draw an inner circle, there's three people that you can be close with at one time. If you're not married, it could be a parent, could be a friend, but there's three people in there.

Peter Englert:
If you go outside of that three people, there's usually like 12. That's kind of like your Friends cast in your life. And then, you go out, there's another circle which is the actual acquaintances, it's 25 to 50. And then you go out, there's another circle like 50 to 100. I think sociologists would say you have a 250 person span with all of those in your life. And I think it's important that if any of those are out of sync, so let's say you have the three but you don't have the 12 or the 25, if something happens to one of those three, you're down. And then I think most of us know the 50 to the 25, that outer ring. If no one's in the inner, then you kind of feel like do I just have all surface level friendships?

Peter Englert:
And so, the reason I'm kind of talking about this and where I'm going question-wise, is we get downed about the church all the time. But the funny thing about church is it's probably one of the only environments when you can hit all three of those circles. And I think about this to people that are dechurched and unchurched. I know that not every church is as welcoming as Browncroft. I think Kim Igoe does a great job. I think we have a community that's very open and welcoming and wants to get people connected.

Peter Englert:
But if I was to move to another area, and I want to be in Rochester a long time, and even when I did move here, I don't know what I would've done without a church. I think about Aaron, like your story's basically you showed up here on a Sunday and here you are.

Aaron Mercer:
Yeah, no. I mean we were welcomed here, and my kids wanted to come back, and my wife and I really enjoy it. And having a church is definitely a place where you can build bonds, and I praise God for that, especially because we came just before March 2020, so that would've been hard-

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Mercer:
-To not have that.

Amanda Bundy:
For sure, for sure.

Aaron Mercer:
Which I think a lot of people have had to struggle with.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah.

Peter Englert:
This has been really good, this has went way too fast, so you know what that means? This is your first podcast episode, I think we're going to have Amanda back.

Amanda Bundy:
Already wanting that, already wanting that. Yeah.

Peter Englert:
In fact I won't say I think, I know we're going to have Amanda back.

Amanda Bundy:
Yes.

Peter Englert:
What's so unique about Christianity and friendship?

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, that's a great question. Also, I'm going to bounce back real quick and just say you guys are definitely hitting on the head that it's good to have friends outside of just your core. And you really do hit that with your church. It is not healthy to just be in your own little clique and bubble. There's got to be more people involved too, so I appreciate you bringing that up.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, I think what's different about Christian friendships is a lack of gossip and drama. It's confronting those difficult situations in love, and that might be the different thing too. I know it could be ... I think back to the conflicts I had with my sister growing up, and I was not loving in the things that I would talk to her about. So maybe it's that, and it's encouraging your friends in what they're doing.

Amanda Bundy:
Like I think too my friend saying, "You should be in a bible study with Nick here in Rochester. We really want you here with us in Buffalo for our small group, but you should start one in Rochester." It's like that selflessness too to say, "Even though I want you here and I miss you tremendously, you need to go and do what you've been called to do." N I think it's seeing their eternal worth and their eternal value to see the best in them and be willing to help and spur them on to better works than what they're doing now. I think that there could be just a bigger aspect to a friendship than in Christian circles.

Peter Englert:
I'm going to go somewhere that-

Amanda Bundy:
Go for it.

Peter Englert:
-Aaron is definitely way more of an expert on.

Amanda Bundy:
Okay.

Aaron Mercer:
I don't know, where are we going?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh boy.

Peter Englert:
But I think C.S. Lewis said about friendship, at the end of the day, it's someone that says, "Oh, you too." Do you know where that's from?

Aaron Mercer:
There are a couple books that come to mind, but I'm not sure which one it was.

Peter Englert:
What's your favorite C.S. Lewis?

Aaron Mercer:
Well, it could be Mere Christianity, but it could also be The Four Loves, I don't know.

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah.

Aaron Mercer:
Which one was it? Something else?

Peter Englert:
Oh, I don't know, that's why I was asking you.

Aaron Mercer:
Oh, you don't know. Okay. Well, we're just going to throw that one out there and ... Some listener should write into us and tell us what it was.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, right. Comment below, is that a thing?

Aaron Mercer:
Yeah.

Peter Englert:
You get a free book from one of our guests if you can put the ... If you've listened and you post it on social media, so there we go.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, nice.

Peter Englert:
But at the end of the day, I think what you're saying is that there's a mutual spiritual connection. And I think that that's something that we're longing for, and without Jesus kind of at the center of that value, you're always kind of questioning. And there are great friendships on the side of eternity without Jesus, so I don't want to kind of say that, but there's this whole new level when Jesus is involved.

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, absolutely. And it's an interesting thing. A shout-out to my friend Nicole, who is in that small group back in Buffalo, and she's only been a Christian I think for two years, and the rest of us have been Christians for 10 plus. But she is strong in the Lord. She actually took over my job at the chapel. When they said, "Who do you suggest?", I said, "I suggest Nicole," and she took over my apartment. Nick said she's taking over my life. I'm like, "That's great, I'm so happy for that, my whole life in Buffalo."

Amanda Bundy:
But yeah, even though there's this mutual desire and hunger for God and what they're doing, and it's just a beautiful thing when you can work together to say, "I don't want to be stuck here. I want to keep going," or, "I don't know how to work through this problem at work," and then someone's right there to give you that encouragement [inaudible 00:48:44] over you, absolutely.

Peter Englert:
Well hey, that sets us up for our last question, which is what we always do. So what does Jesus have to say about why friendships are so challenging? So Aaron and I answer, and you get to clean up whatever mess we leave.

Amanda Bundy:
Love it.

Peter Englert:
Does that sound good?

Amanda Bundy:
Yeah, sounds great.

Peter Englert:
You've an Enneagram one, you're used to it. This is like your dream. Aaron, kick us off man.

Aaron Mercer:
Oh, yeah. I think Amanda hit on this earlier. God created us to need other people. We're made to be in community. But the fact is that community gets messy, people get messy. That's what the difficulty comes in, but I think that it's one of those things where the solution is not to shut yourself off because that's not who we were made to be. We can't in a healthy way shut ourselves off from everyone else, or make everything superficial.

Aaron Mercer:
And so, I think Jesus wants us to have friends and to seek friends. And sometimes people are in situation where they're in a new city or some people are in places where they don't speak the language and it's hard to get ... Or whatever, there's lots of boundaries that in that situation, I think it's good to know that Jesus wants to be our friend and there's a power to that. But I think he wants us to have friends too, and he'll send those people along and you get to be next to each other and working on whatever it is together and getting to know each other and building each other up. So I think that's important.

Peter Englert:
So I think for our listeners that might be skeptics or dechurched or unchurched when it comes to Jesus, I think about the New Testament from Matthew all the way to Revelation. There's 53 verses in the bible approximately that have to do with one another's. There's love one another, forgive one another, care for one another. You can Google it, you'll find the list.

Peter Englert:
And I think Christianity assumes transformation and community, and I think that you can even go outside the bible and why do we care so much about mentors? Why do we care so much about friends? And at the end of the day, you were created for community, and if you don't have those friendships, there is going to be something missing in your life. And Jesus devoted three years of his life to 12 disciples and he's actively living out those 53 one another's. And so I think why is friendship so challenging? Well, the risk is definitely worth the reward.

Amanda Bundy:
Absolutely, totally. Also, I just love you guys asked this question. I listen to Annie F. Downs sometimes and her question is always like, "What sounds fun to you?" It's like she always ends on the same question. I love you guys do that, so kudos to you.

Peter Englert:
We will take any positive feedback on air.

Amanda Bundy:
Great.

Peter Englert:
Save the negative til off air, okay?

Amanda Bundy:
[inaudible 00:52:01]. So yeah, I think you're right. People can Google bible verses that talk about friendship and find so many. I actually found some as well, but there's a few that I always go back to. And it is, "A wise man seeks advice," and I feel that ... And actually, I just heard from someone about an hour ago that says, "You're not going to be," I don't know how he said it, but you're going to hear feedback from someone when you're known by someone well. It's going to fall better on your ears. So if you are with a close friend who you know is for you and they give you some feedback and advice, you're going to take it way better than you would from someone else.

Amanda Bundy:
And I love that you said that Jesus is our friend. I think that is so true. In my loneliest times when I didn't have friends, God was my friend. And I felt like in the moment, in that season of my life, I hated that I didn't have friends, but I built this beautiful foundation with God. And I just encourage anyone that feels like they don't have any close friends or friends at all, make God your best friend, which may sound like the most cliché thing in the Christian faith. But I'm telling you if you are devoted to the Lord and just spend continuous time with him and get involved in your church, you're going to look back and say, "That built a solid foundation for me and built up me in mature faith."

Amanda Bundy:
And again, that verse I said earlier with, "The wounds of a friend are faithful," like I trust the difficult things my friends say to me because I know that they love me.

Peter Englert:
Where can people find you if they want to follow you?

Amanda Bundy:
Oh, this is great. No, I'm just kidding. Really? Guys, I'm not like a professional with anything. So yeah, it's Amanda_Bundy on Instagram. My email for Browncroft is [e-mail], which will hopefully be changed soon when I get married. So it will be A. D'Angelo soon.

Peter Englert:
Let me tell you why you want to follow Amanda on Instagram. Her and Nick kind of bring their conflict in Stories, so-

Amanda Bundy:
Oh yeah, we do.

Peter Englert:
I will never forget the pizza box. I'll let her post about that later. You can ask her.

Amanda Bundy:
So great.

Peter Englert:
If you want to catch up and find out more about the Why God Why Podcast and subscribe to our email, which is the best way to get ahold of us, go to whygodwhypodcast.com. Amanda, thanks for being here.

Amanda Bundy:
Oh, thanks for having me.

Peter Englert:
So thankful for Nathan and Aaron. We hope you all have a great day.

Peter Englert:
(silence)