The Ten Thousand Things

Do most straight men reserve their truest love and romance for other men? Marilyn Frye thinks so, and today we consider a quote from her classic book of feminist essays The Politics of Reality

We found ourselves in agreement with Frye's observations. But we debate and detail the angles:

Is heterosexual male culture (always) homoerotic?
Do men save their 'best' for each other?
Do many men find truer friendship with other men because they feel more comfortable around each other? Why?
Is this a problem? How much so?
Why would a man be 'less himself' around women?
Is this because a man might be capable of friendship with women, but change his behaviour around a woman he wants to sleep with?
Maybe it's heterosexual people thinking of each other as alien species that causes the problem?
But does heterosexuality rely on just this, treating each other as alien and maintaining a sense of difference?
Is there some anger, bitterness or frustration in the quote?
Is the author a separatist feminist as Joe guessed? (Yes).
What is romance anyway?
Has the truth in this quote shifted over time?
Is it also true about women and other women? And is it possible to judge those two realities by the same standard?
Why are people on dating apps talking about polarity and being in their feminine energy? Do they just mean 'someone else sort everything out?'
Are we at the point where we can begin to expect equal levels of maturity and responsibility from both men and women?

"To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom the imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence, and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women, they want devotion, service, and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving."

And if r/feminism is consulted, you will find much agreement there. As NoMommy- posted:

Do men even like women? It doesn’t fuckin sound like it.

I want to be with someone who likes me. Likes talking to me, likes my sense of humor, likes hanging out with me. Someone who, even if we weren’t together/he wasn’t attracted to me, he would still want to hang out with me because he likes me as a person.

I want someone who shows affection and does nice things, not because he expects something in return, but because he wants to make me happy.

Is that too much to ask??? I say this to my friends who date and they’re all like, “fat fuckin chance,” “good luck with that.”

It’s just sad and frustrating

The Ten Thousand Things, well, Sam would like to say to you in reply "u/NoMommy- I get you, cos that's what I want also. No, it's not too much to ask. It's not easy to create this reality for ourselves, but many men do feel the same way. Maybe all humans feel the same way. We all want to be loved unconditionally, but we fear that any love we get is conditional, and pre-empt or retaliate. It's not impossible to create this better love with others, but we would have to start with the assumption that everyone has been hurt, and we ourselves are not necessarily easy to live with. And we all wonder if we can ever really be known by others, and still be loved. If we were known fully by someone, we may fear that we would not be loved.

Meanwhile, over at Good Men Project, Franklin Madison quotes Frye and issues a heartfelt appeal to men to have a high quality of friendship with men, but hold the same respect, acceptance and quality of friendship with women:

We reserve real love for these men. For many of us, we “believe” love isn’t really what we transmit to the women in our lives. Imagine, if we loved the women in our lives the same as we love the men in our lives: We never lied to them; we always supported them; we listened to them; we took their advice; we truly respected them. Then and only then will we truly love these women whom we inadequately love now.

There, I said it. Live with it because you know as well as I do that’s the truth.

He also urges men to be comfortable with the touch of other men and not deny it to themselves on homophobic grounds. https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/non-toxic-masculinity-male-male-affection-friendship-lbkr/

-----------------------------
More about Frye:

Marilyn Frye (born 1941) is an American philosopher and radical feminist theorist. She is known for her theories on sexism, racism, oppression, and sexuality. Her writings offer discussions of feminist topics, such as: white supremacy, male privilege, and gay and lesbian marginalization. Although she approaches the issues from the perspective of justice, she is also engaged with the metaphysics, epistemology, and moral psychology of social categories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Frye

After a bit more reading, I learned that Frye is a reference point for separatist feminists. As I understand it, separatist feminists are women who assert, with cause, that they should not put their energy, presence, love or even thoughts towards men. Men are not where they should invest energy of any kind, that they want to prioritise other women, particularly those who have been hurt, and particularly those hurt by men.

There is a long history of women doing it for themselves throughout recorded human existence, and earlier still. Among our primate relatives, Bonobo chimpanzees have a society that operates through female bonds, and men must cooperate in order to have any stake in it. While among other chimpanzees each troop has a dominant male who keeps harems. The only way to access reproduction is to sneak around or kill or drive off the other male. I think the better choice here is obvious.

Women often saw benefit or survival in in banding together: for safety, mutual aid, religion, and many other causes. Women have had to fend for themselves after abandonment, during peace and war, or after losing male family members to war, famine, disease, migration, economic collapse, husbands press ganged into the navy, or killed accidentally in work. As there are 'men going their own way' now, and perhaps there has always been. It seems in difficult times women support each other, and perhaps, so do men. But we also hear that men turn to each other less. It's a complicated picture indeed, your mileage truly may vary.

Image by Craig: check out his pictures and words at https://wish-art.blog/. Right now Craig is travelling Europe camping with his beloved missus, and it seems to me that they love to hang out with each other, take long walks with Chloe the greyhound, and get along well. A few men at the very least, can be romantic and true friends with a female partner.

Creators & Guests

Host

Ali Catramados

Diagnosed crazy cat lady/part time podcaster

Host

Joe Loh

Film crew guy and mental health care worker with aspirations of being a small town intellectual one day.

Host

Sam Ellis

Teacher/father/leftist loonie/raised hare Krishna and have never quite renounced it - "I just have one more thing to say, then I’ll let you speak"

What is The Ten Thousand Things?

Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.

Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)

Sam: hello and welcome
to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam.

I'm Joe

Joe: Loh

Ali: and I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show.

Bromance.

Uh, Allie found a quote from one of her.

Feminist texts that
she's constantly reading.

And sent it to the group.

How dare you?

We thought we'd read it out
and have a chat about it.

Sam: yeah, look, it is.

I think it's a pretty interesting quote.

It's definitely up for
debate, but let's get into it.

To say that straight men are heterosexual
is only to say that they engage in sex.

Brackets fucking exclusively
with the other sex.

I E women closed brackets, all or
most of that which pertains to love.

Most straight men reserve
exclusively for other men.

The people whom they
admire respect, adore.

Revere honor.

Whom they imitate idolize and
form profound attachments to.

Whom they are willing to teach and
from whom they are willing to learn and

whose respect, admiration recognition,
honor reverence and love, they desire.

Those are overwhelmingly other men.

In their relations with women,
what passes for respect?

His kindness, generosity or paternalism.

What passes for honor.

His removal to the pedestal.

From women, they want
devotion, service and sex.

Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic.

It is man loving.

And that's from Maryland fry, the politics
of reality essays in feminist theory.

Friend of yours.

Oh,

Ali: No, I just, seen a few
discussions around yeah.

That romance.

It's really from men is
reserved for other men.

And not women.

Like in the traditional sense.

Sam: And we, and we don't
have to reality check these.

We can just talk about it in a conceptual
way, but you know, is it worth asking.

Is that what, you know, if you observed
that with male partners in the past, that.

There was something special about
their interactions with other men

that you felt was not present?

Yeah.

Between you.

Ali: Uh, thoughtful fullness
and acts of love and.

You know, Between.

Yeah.

They're mates in, in a really lovely way.

Like it's not to say, like, I think
it's a wonderful thing to have that

sort of friendship and connection
with somebody, but It's it has been

my observation that, yeah, that is
often reserved for their friends

and not necessarily their partners.

Like you got a partner who's like,
oh, I wish we could go on dates.

We could do this.

Those sorts of things that, you
know, most long-term couples, you.

Yeah, sure.

Quality time.

And then, you know, they're
organizing, you know, a trip to

spend quality time with their mate.

Like wouldn't bat an eyelid, like, oh,
we're going to go away for the weekend and

have a fishing trip or whatever it is in.

Those sorts or.

Yeah, the thoughtful gifts even I've seen.

I've observed, like really
thought, really funny, thoughtful.

Things that bad.

Yeah, just could not bring themselves
to do that for their partner.

That was the exam.

Yeah, that's right.

Sam: That was the, I was going to.

At the risk of, you know, baiting you.

, did you see a a boy, a young man,
perhaps give his mate a really just

spot on gift, but just never quite
managed to land a gift with you as

accurately, or maybe not even close

Ali: or not.

Yeah.

But, but yeah, but like observing that.

You know, and, and that, that's
not just, in my relationships, but

something I've witnessed broadly
and that, you know, even, you know,

if you look at, in the context of.

, men.

Revering the art of other men.

Yeah.

Sure.

If you even think of like, the
military or in those sort of.

Actions where they yep.

There's love and respect.

It is a love and respect there.

That's just simply that
is reserved for other men.

Sam: Devotion, tenderness, reverence.

Joe: I've experienced it in cricket teams.

So a whole bunch of thoughts.

You would have, yeah.

I was mostly with that quote until.

I said homoerotic and I'm
like, I think you finally gone

a little bit too far lady.

Sam: Well, . Um, wanting to get into that
too, but first let's concentrate on the

part of the thesis you do agree with.

Joe: Yeah.

So.

There's a bitterness to it.

Yes, it's a thesis.

I think so.

I'm not getting what you're
giving to your male friends.

Yeah.

I mean, it's completely different.

Relationship.

Sam: I don't think anyone
becomes a feminist.

If they haven't experienced.

And I don't say that to dismiss.

I don't think anyone becomes a Marxist.

Who are not experiencing.

And the woman who wrote that

Joe: might be a lesbian
separatists feminists.

I don't know, but

Sam: yeah.

Joe: It's a funny thing to read too,
because unlike Ellie, I don't sit

around reading feminist texts and
it's almost like reading someone who's

in a zoo, observing some animals.

They don't really understand or something.

Oh, well, There's an outsider
perspective that I'm like, oh,

Sam: It sounds detached
and anthropological.

I actually, I, I enjoy it.

I think it's.

Thundering passage.

It's really good.

Joe: Uh, intelligent and
there's a lot of truth in that.

Absolutely.

And maybe it goes to understand,

Ali: do you feel
uncomfortable with that truth?

Joe: liked it as a quote up
until she said homoerotic, then

I'm like, eh, you went too far.

Yeah.

Kind of fell off the
edge of your rhetorical.

But you mountain that you were
building, that was quite powerful.

And then you said, Oh, but they
secretly want to fuck each other.

It's like, no.

Sam: think maybe.

Ali: A lot of them do.

And a lot of them.

But even if you're looking at small

Joe: percentage,

Ali: But not a lot, but even
like the bodies of other men or

in the characteristics that you.

Yeah, look up to and admire and
aspire to be like it's other men.

So there is that sort of.

Yeah.

At a ration for.

for men in that way.

Joe: Yeah.

It's like Michelangelo's David.

Yeah.

Well, it's been going on.

Not a bad

Sam: example because.

You know that that is homoerotic.

Yeah.

It was thought to be.

And Michael Angela certainly was, was gay.

Wasn't he?

Ali: I'm not sure.

Joe: No.

I mean.

If you want to go back in time, this,
this adoration of the male body and

of men has always been there and it's
there when I watch a game of football.

Yes.

You know, and men was short
sleeves and short shorts and

they're amazing physiques.

And.

But I'm sitting there and I'm not
thinking how much I want to fuck them.

I'm appreciating the power and the beauty
and the athleticism and all of that.

Yeah, without going to that extra kind of
corny degree of like, while you secretly

want to fuck them, it's like, no, I don't.

But, but the stuff about how have
I been kinder, more thoughtful?

Uh, more respectful.

Uh, have I assumed more intelligence?

Have I gone to more effort with, with men?

Over the years.

Yeah, I think at times, I mean, I've had.

I also had me, you

Sam: and who have stood by each other.

Joe: And my best friend
since for 30 years.

Yeah.

And it doesn't matter what I do.

It doesn't matter if I got
publicly shamed and canceled.

Uh, he would still, it doesn't matter if I
went to jail, he would come and visit me.

Yeah, that's right now.

I probably have female
friends like that too.

I can think of one or two.

And

So do you inherently

Ali: value?

The achievements of men over women.

Joe: Yeah, all the, all the
more, my favorite riders.

Artists.

Yeah.

Musicians.

They're all tend to be men.

Yeah.

Uh, like I'm in, I'm obsessed with
like someone like Allana Del Ray

or something, but it's in a very.

Again,

Sam: Bad example, that music is
just drenched in heterosexuality.

Yeah.

And I love it.

Yeah.

She's got great clips.

Yeah.

Joe: Oh, they're great
songs, but like, I see your.

Sam: you myself, but yeah.

Joe: Yeah, no, she's
incredibly talented, but when.

Tension.

She tends

Sam: to be incredibly
attractive like that.

Sure.

Joe: because.

When you're in undergrad uni, all
this stuff gets problematized.

Right.

And you're like, yeah, problematic
that we're doing it now.

Well, where it's a bit
of an undergrad show.

Right.

But like it's problematic
that your frame report.

He's on the road and it's
problematic on the road is about.

Uh, this friendship, maybe
love, maybe sexual love.

Yeah.

Two men.

But that becomes an archetype.

So my friendship with my best
friend, of course, It's like

cell paradise and day Moriarty.

That's that story got
told to me when I was 16.

Yeah.

And it's like two guys of
have each other's back.

Right.

Yeah, because you got to understand
for a lot of straight men.

A woman is an incredibly mysterious thing.

Hmm.

And we sit around and talking about
how we don't understand women.

Sure.

Right.

So there's a, there's a
bonding that happens there too.

Shared experience of, of just.

Incomprehension.

In comprehension.

Ali: But what stops you
from just asking a woman?

Joe: Because women kind of, I can't
explain a lot of their own actions.

Emotions.

That's been my experience.

I mean, you must've loved that.

Mine as good as it gets
unexplainable things all the time.

I don't remember the health

Ali: problems.

Sam: Yeah.

You must have loved that line and as
good as it gets, where someone says

to a Jack Nicholson's character,
cause he's a writer and you know,

how do you get woman in your books?

I take man.

And then I remove all
reason and accountability.

I remember that.

Joe: did you resonate
with this quote, Sam?

I think it's true.

Yeah.

Do you feel like you've been.

Deeper in your male friendships
than you have in your female

relationships at times.

Sam: But I think what what's
happened over the years is

went to coed schooling, right?

The way through as did you.

but because growing up
in the higher Christians.

It was a bit of a special context and.

I think.

That early on the, the gender division
was not particularly strong as it often

isn't, um, just in, you know, normal
childhood settings, boys and girls don't

automatically drift apart right away.

And, you know, physically, emotionally,
they're quite similar up to a certain age.

PVD obviously does have some impacts.

There's no denying it, so does
the action of, you know, we talked

about this before an incredibly huge
effort goes into gender and culture.

A huge effort goes into gender in products
for children and for adults, but with.

For some reason, they go
really hard on it with kids.

Ali: It was socialized from such a
young age to these are the expectations

around what you should ensure to do.

It's not like.

Behave and not, yeah.

Like for every facet of their lives.

Sam: Absolutely.

And there.

Encouraged to really lean in to those
identities that are at a young age now,

for some, I think for some reason in
the Harry's, cause it was a bit of an

insider outsider vibe, and we felt.

Like weird.

People surrounded by.

Other weird people, but you know
where the normal ones, everyone

else is weird, but where the weird
ones and everyone else is normal.

If you see what I mean.

So I think the solidarity
amongst us, cause we're also

boarding school kids as well.

And there's only like, you
know, maybe 30, 40 of us, we.

You can't be too picky.

Ali: Hmm.

Sam: You can't just hang with
the guys like you sorta need.

to mix it up and well, but also I
think in my case, it was a survival

strategy to have female friends because.

It wasn't conscious at the time, but.

Okay, so here we're on gold.

We'll get gendered for just a second.

Not N wasn't necessarily
getting the nurturing.

with the boys now over
time that has changed.

And I've had nurturing from men.

At times and actually better at finding
that and AXA, you know, and accessing

it and, and, um, making room for it.

And Joe might agree with me too.

but I can just remember
going and playing with dolls.

And just finding it chill.

And I enjoyed the make-believe.

It taught, I think I was trying to.

You know, also being on the
spectrum, learning roles and like,

.
Ali: That imaginative
play is not gendered.

Like.

Sam: What about acting it out?

And so I think that that helped
me to connect and kind of.

not see them as a strange species
and just as humans, humans.

the only area where we differed really
was, when it was time to play weddings

and princesses, that I wanted to have
a turn being the bride or the princess.

And that's where we differed.

Yeah.

I don't know if they were
necessarily gender policing me.

I think sometimes they were, but we
need someone to be the prince, and it

should be it's my turn to be the bride.

Because if there's three girls,
they all want to be the bride.

But like over the years, you know,
reading much the same kind of books.

And that's right.

And I started reading like
babysitters club and like pony club

type books and stuff just cause I
had girlfriends that read those.

Okay, I'll give those a go.

And here, why don't you give this
fantasy novel ago or whatever.

And then in certainly in my twenties.

In some really, really,
really hard times there were.

Female friends who, were just
indispensable Because the question

I wanted to ask Joe a minute ago.

The times in your life
where you've really felt.

Understood and seen and, you know,
to use them modern pilots seen,

but, you know, excepted understood.

Held.

It was mostly with men.

Oh, I would assume.

Joe: No, it's mostly with women.

But it was mostly, probably
in a sexual relationship.

Sam: Yeah.

But this is what I'm saying.

Like.

I mean, you're not giving
this other person orgasms.

But they look at you and
accept you completely.

Joe: Oh, I've only had a
couple of those friendships.

Yeah.

I mean, I wanted to ask you, you got it.

You went into childhood.

I was more interested in
coming up through adolescent.

Yeah, adolescent and adult hoard.

Yeah.

Did you have.

Have you had strong friendships, which.

I have been there as you've gone
in and out of sexual relationships.

Strong male friendships.

Sam: Yeah.

No, not especially like, I
mean, I've had certainly deep.

Friendships with other men, but
over the years, I have had that

tendency to get too involved in a
relationship and not look after the

other things as much as I should.

Yeah, and that's a

Joe: really common one, too.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's.

I think it is quite makes me think
that maybe women don't quite understand

what's going on in male friendships.

I think the biggest misunderstanding.

Yeah, that might be true of.

I've male friend of men
in general from women.

But I see.

Is.

Just how simple most of us are.

Yeah.

Like this bafflement that I'll sit there
and watch seven hours of live sport.

And that's all I'm doing.

Am I that's enough to occupy, occupy

Sam: my mind, but there's an analog
to that, which is just like the

cliche of the lady watching seven
hours of real Housewives or whatever.

It's just the same.

Joe: I think that's where women.

That they missed.

So, so in this quote, like
it turns into this dramatic.

Homoerotic.

Intense thing where it's
like, actually this looks.

Don most likely you'll sit next to me in
a car and we'll drive up the Hume highway.

Listen to listen to some music.

You know that we both
like, it's so simple.

Dumb.

Yeah.

I don't know how else to describe it.

It's not,

Ali: there's like a simplicity of just
being yourself in the way that you feel

comfortable, that you can then be around
other men also enjoying that simplicity.

Yeah.

You're not necessarily.

Communicating your emotions in
a way that you do with women

or women do to each other.

So it's it, but it's more just occupying
that space of living those emotions

rather than necessarily articulating them.

Joe: Yeah, I'll give you a good example
of something that speaks to this.

Yeah, I know.

I think a bit, which is that we're
used to in our twenties go out on a

Saturday night and have our adventures.

And try and pick up and try and get laid.

Or maybe we had a girlfriend
at the time or whatever.

But then generally, mostly men
would convene at a friend's

house on a Sunday afternoon.

I'd have a few beers and yeah.

Recount the previous night's events.

Hmm.

And.

That was that kind of male
bonding where it's like, you

know, who got laid, who didn't.

Whose heart who's not hot.

I mean,

Sam: it just sounds like a blokey
version of sex in the city.

Really.

Joe: It was like that because that show's

Sam: not about sex

Joe: at

Sam: all.

And you

Joe: would have to have the adventures.

Yeah, Friday and Saturday night
so that you could talk about

them on the Sunday afternoon, but
yeah, the commerce most connected.

Um, most grounded.

Grounding.

Yeah, nicest part of the weekend was
often the Sunday with just the guys then.

Yeah.

For sure.

And there might be some sport on
or your mind, or watch a TV show.

But the irony is in my life.

I have friends.

I wish I could have dinner with.

Male friends.

So in my twenties, it was just nonstop,
male and female company, nonstop parties.

Yeah.

Mm, different dating different people.

The same friendships you don't.

I only ever added friendships
in my twenties and thirties

just added new more people.

And then yeah, that the pool just
got bigger and bigger and bigger.

Right.

Um, now my forties, it's like

Ali: very different.

Joe: I can have a date with
a woman I've never met.

And sit down and have a coffee or did on.

Uh, via the internet.

And they pretty much have the same
conversation over and over again.

With a new person, but I can't really
sit down and have dinner with a

male friend because of all my kids.

They're all in different
parts of the world.

Um, and so.

It's not homoerotic.

I don't want to fuck him, but
I do miss that from my life.

Yeah.

You know, and when I go and play a
game of cricket, it's there and the.

Yeah.

This is another thing I don't think
women quite understand about men

or some way as a generalization.

Yeah.

I've played cricket with guys for
20 years and we have no, no idea

what each other does for a job.

Ali: We have

Joe: no idea whether
each other is married.

Single life.

It doesn't matter.

We go out there, we chase
the red ball around.

You seem like a decent guy,
you seem like a decent guy.

There is no outside world.

Yeah.

You know,

Sam: Nick Cody was laughing about this.

You've gone and caught up with your mate.

You go home and your nieces
is like, I as a house.

So-and-so how old is their kid now?

What?

They've got a kid.

Yeah.

It's like, what do you talk about?

Not that.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah, it's interesting that.

Like I say you're often talking or the
conversation will revolve around what

you're doing rather than what you feeling.

You're just feeling it.

And then similarly, what I
was sort of getting at before,

where I asked you about the.

The stuff that you've admired,
specifically art and thinking.

Jimi Hendrix,

Sam: Bob Dylan, Alan Ginsburg,
Jack Kerouac, hunter S Thompson,

Ali: so.

And I was saying this actually in
the group chat out the other day

that men, we were talking about
compliments specifically, but men.

The only compliments I think
they feel comfortable with is.

compliments based on their achievements.

Yes.

Sam: Prowess achievements.

Yeah.

Ali: And so, and it's the things they
value in other men that, that sort of.

There's a respect there and yeah,
an admiration that it's not about

what that person is feeling.

It's when they've done.

Similarly, like how, yeah.

The things you would feel comfortable
being complimented on are the same

things that you admire in men.

Joe: Yeah.

We were talking about it before
the Scheider perfect example.

I put up some writing.

Joe Loh sub stack.com.

Yep.

And, uh, check it out.

I've put up a piece of writing
that was quite raw and personal.

Very.

All of it.

Well, based on a true story,
perhaps, but anyway, yeah.

But as I said, the person who
contacted me yesterday and said,

they'd read my, the writing on my
sub stack and liked it is the person

who's given me dressing downs before.

Generally rinsing.

My hardest.

One of my harshest critics.

And he wrote to me and told me that.

My writing was good.

Ali: you feel that those
compliments are more.

Valuable than coming from.

Like.

Maybe not maybe other men.

Who haven't, you know, given been
so hard on you, but just women give

Joe: you an example.

Ali: Women are going to give them minimum.

That's their job to be supportive.

Joe: So Allie.

We're getting into it.

In terms of like brain power.

You're clearly as intelligent
as anyone else I know.

Right.

In in-person like anyone to actually
know in the real world as intelligent.

And I know other women who are at
the same level of intelligence.

Right.

But yeah, I take it with a grain
of salt when it comes from a woman.

Because that's why they're
going to give you a pat on the

head and say, oh, that's nice.

Yeah.

Keep trying, you know, Whereas a man who.

' cause I know with that friend, if he
had a read it and thought it was shit.

He would have just never
mentioned that he'd read it.

Ali: And

Joe: I know that, right, because
that's the two modes are the give.

Like you just said, you give praise for
actions in the world and concrete things.

Like a piece of writing.

I'm not going to get
praised for the subtle way.

I deal with, you know, one of my
daughters having an illness and

the emotional, but that is simply.

That is an accomplishment.

But it's not a concrete
thing in the world.

So I put a concrete
thing out in the world.

And the time you feel the kid.

I think,

Sam: yeah.

You know, but anyways,

Joe: I can feel proud of that and
someone who's close to me and knows.

Sam: What I'm going through
that labor is invisible, Joe.

That's another thing worth pointing out.

Ali: And a lot of the labor and the
things that women are doing is invisible.

Sam: And so men tend to prize visible.

Uh, accomplishments.

And that's an observation that many women
have made and many men have made too.

And then the observation
that goes with that is that.

women prize visible accomplishments
too, but are obliged to do an

awful lot of invisible stuff.

And, but I think also.

Women are more likely to point.

That out that they're doing that.

And men are less likely to say to a mate.

Uh, you know, had a rough week, had
to take the kids to hospital and get a

checked out and here's what I went through
and, you know, But we should be doing that

is, is what I would say, but you're right.

Unless we go and tell someone about it.

Because, you know, someone has gone
out and played music or whatever, and.

You know, Don things in a public space
that, if you go and do things in

public, you got to expect reviews and.

Yeah, so interesting
to follow the weather.

I'd waited.

Uh, compliments from men
or women differently.

I think maybe the very little
bit, sometimes the male

compliment might revolve around
technique or something like that.

I probably means more to me, honestly,
if a woman says , that was meaningful.

Like as a I'd rather that than , , that
was well-played from a bloke.

Ali: I think maybe perhaps
you're at the exception to that.

Maybe.

But

Joe: yeah, I mean, It's hard to
connect in this conversation.

I think because.

Amen.

Pretty bog standard strike guy.

Sam's an unusual.

Yeah, I guess like when it comes to
gender roles and sexuality and stuff,

It's not as clear and I'm not fully
standard, but, and then you, you, Ali.

I mean, I think what.

I think you connect somewhat with
the bitterness of that sort of

separate this point of view of.

Look at those men over there.

Yeah.

why don't they treat us?

Like they save all the
good stuff for each other.

Why don't they treat that treat us like
they treat their friends, which is ironic

coming from you, Ali, because you've
always been considered one of the boys.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

I'm talking about like the romance though.

Romance has been reserved for other men.

So the romantic partnerships
in my life, I think.

Yeah.

Like a lot of women would
relate to that in that.

They haven't been the
beneficiaries of those.

Gestures.

Um, that those have
been reserved for their.

Frank.

Yeah.

Joe: That's I remember
being in a longterm.

Relationship and the sheer relief.

Of going and hanging
out with a male friend.

And getting away from that.

You know, domestic situation with the
kids and the partner and the tension.

And, but that's disappointment.

It's not

Sam: her fault for being like that's
not intrinsic to being a woman.

It's like, just picture any two
people in that circumstance.

The same sex.

They're all going to be glad to get away.

And want to get away and have.

Themselves.

I think that's what's lurking this
idea earlier of the incomprehension

of this female, other that said
the teenage boy experiences.

And I can remember that.

But I realized years
later, so many situations.

Just make a lot more sense.

Just take out.

Gender and sex and then
analyze just two human beings

interacting and see what's there.

And then add in the other stuff, if
that helps to make more sense of it.

Part of the incomprehension results from.

The otherizing.

So when you make the otherizing
move, so you become a teenage boy.

And if let's say you're heterosexual.

Uh, which I am for the most part,
every sexual, but I, I do have

homosexual inclinations at times,
which I have not acted upon.

But when I was a teenage
boy, certainly I felt a great

closeness with my male friends.

You're sharing.

Your sexual thoughts with, to a
level, with a level of intimacy that

is, you know, I would describe as
almost homoerotic, perhaps by proxy.

But those conversations
are focused on girls and.

So it's an odd sort of
thing going on there.

And then you've otherized girls, you
just used to play happily with them

and kind of do a lot of the same stuff.

But now that like sex has entered
the picture, oh, now there are other,

Ali: yeah.

Sam: And in a way, heterosexuality
sort of depends on maintaining this

idea of difference to a degree.

Like I had male friends get turned off.

When Details were not consistent
with their picture in their mind of

what the other gender is supposed
to look like and feel like, and

function like and talk like, and all
of that, that it can be a turn off if

they're not sufficiently different.

Like the horror of realizing that
this is just another homo sapiens.

It's like, ah, like, no, no, no, no.

They need to be alien.

Like that's where I feel safe.

Then yes, what's going to follow
the hot on the heels of that.

Easy in comprehension.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: And, Another thing happens, which
is, if a heterosexual man perceives.

A woman.

You've changed from the desire is to
interact as equals the desire is to

accomplish something, to get something.

You might be acting in a different
way to how you normally would.

With your mates or with a female
friend that you don't have, you know,

don't wish to pursue in that way.

And then the results are at odds with the
ease and success you might be experiencing

just being a normal person, interacting
in a normal way with another human being.

You see where I'm going with this?

So when we otherize the, and.

Adopt these different
strategy and different vibe.

It's like, no wonder the results
might vary and cause puzzlement.

. It's funny because some of those
misogynistic pickup artists actually

almost acknowledged this in a roundabout
way because you know, one of the hacks.

Is to pretend to be interested
in the other person, as a person

and for their accomplishments.

And it's like, well, oh,
here's an even better hack.

Actually,

Ali: yes,

Sam: actually.

Be interested in them and just treat
them as you would, any other person.

Yeah.

And these.

This is a hot hack that really
works on people like just like B.

Yeah.

Man.

And if you can find it like.

Because let's face it.

We've met men, Joe, that we found boring
and uncompelling, , You know what I mean?

It's less of a problem.

Yeah, this is like, oh, whatever
that person's uncompelling.

Like, I dunno, like these
boring, repetitive dates you

described, like, what if.

Yeah, I dunno.

How could you get away from that?

Make it more interesting.

but the homoerotic thing, I do agree
with you on that, that I think that

Marilyn, Marilyn Frye is mistaken here
when she says, so it's homoerotic.

The word is homosocial.

It's not so that you got
homosexuality heterosexuality,

you got homosocial reality,

Joe: I mean, I think I've got, I've come
up with a totalizing theory here, right?

Ali: Yeah.

Joe: And it's so simple.

You might miss it.

Yeah.

But I've been reflecting
on my friendships with men.

Compared to my friendships with women.

No, my relationships with women.

Yeah.

You know what I actually think it is.

It's just so simple.

With men.

Well that's okay.

Like I've had friends
since I was 10 years old.

And.

We talk about the footy.

We go to the footy.

We have replaced some sport.

I like.

The conversation just never gets deep,
but the bond is incredibly strong.

And the bond that men
will often talk about.

I mentioned it before the context of hue.

But it's, uh, if something
happened, yeah, he's going to be.

I donated to bury a body or
whatever, get out of a crime.

Yeah.

Who could I call?

Yeah, that's, that's a classic male bond.

And if you watch a lot of
them, Movies and stuff.

It's all those kinds
of scenarios play out.

Ali: Women have those experiences.

And that's what we haven't.

Yeah, absolutely.

To marry a body like that.

Yeah.

Friends with, since.

Absolutely.

Joe: Absolutely.

But what I fail you bail you out of.

So simple is what I find
with my female friends.

And I've always had female friends.

And for me, once a
relationship is boundaried.

I'm pretty good.

I'm fine.

And then I get to enjoy a female
friendship, but I'm tend to

be having well, there you go.

A lot of very emotional, deep
conversations and in, I mean,

in the last 10 years, I actually
have that with almost everyone.

Yeah.

Um, So, but, but w we're alert
to have those conversations.

Was with, yeah.

Women, including with
my mom actually like.

Yeah, agonize.

If I've got decisions to this
day, I'll still make sure.

Have a long chat with her about it.

Yeah.

So when I've got something that
I is confusing, or I don't quite

understand much, I quite often like
to knock that out with a woman.

You know?

Yeah.

That's

Sam: my experience too, mum.

Mom was there to have the conversations
about the messy areas and the,

the, the, the feelings and stuff.

And then with dad, it was talk about
accomplishments and things doing.

Yeah.

So I think

Joe: that.

I, like I said, it's
very intelligent, quiet.

I like liked most of what it had to say.

I look back and think.

Yes, I could have been more thoughtful
or romantic towards my sexual partners.

And yes, I was quite thoughtful and
romantic towards my male friends at times.

Um, particularly when I think
of things like road trips.

Yes, you would know without a

Sam: plan.

A weekend away with Hughes
that would just go off.

Joe: Yeah, but once, I mean it's
15 years since we had kids and

that's just never happened again.

Yeah.

Ali: that's just life.

That's yeah.

Sure.

I'd love to have a weekend
away with my girlfriends and be

able to do something like that.

But yeah, the reality is that
people that small children.

So that's just, I think that's
more of an age thing rather than

Joe: yeah.

But can you see if you,
if you're not an academic.

And you just look at the same
situation with all the truth.

That's in that statement.

Imagine if there wasn't some
other layer to imagine if it

wasn't secretly Homer or writing.

Oh, well, I think.

And if it was just the simplicity
of just paying with, actually

Sam: I take, I take.

Fry's statement slightly differently.

I agree that there's a kind of
semantic and I think structural error

there, which is it really isn't.

Erotic a lot of the time, I'll
even say maybe most of the time.

Now that's not to deny homoeroticism
within heterosexual male culture,

because of course there is, but I take.

What you say as truth to.

So, but I think what she
really is getting at is that.

when she says erotic, I
think she's talking about.

Romance.

This is what Allie's talking about.

And so I think there's a confusion
in her writing between sexual desire

and romantic desire, which are not.

One

Joe: of you to define romance.

Allie, can you define
romance in this context?

Ali: Well, I think it's, it's,
there's a thoughtfulness.

About.

What you're doing for that person?

And I think like what.

She's actually getting at.

And in the context of
how I came to this quote.

Yeah.

When you're looking at sort of
like say the in cell movement.

Um, these men.

They don't actually like women.

Sam: Yeah.

And that's a different thing.

Yeah.

Ali: Like women and they
don't respect women.

Hmm.

And so

Sam: the incomprehension
has turned into hatred.

Yeah.

That's

Ali: why the only love that
that have left is for other

men and respect for other men.

I think that's how that, and yeah,
she uses like quite blunt language

and that, you know, men want.

To fuck, like, yeah, it's just.

Women are purely seen as this.

This thing that provides them.

Yeah.

Sexual intimacy.

Naturing and yeah.

Everything else to get from.

Yeah, but that's

Joe: not the men.

You've had relationships with.

Ali: But I'm saying, but I'm
saying, I mean, taken to extremes.

Taken to extremes.

Yeah.

You know, It's there's
the othering of women.

And then there's just the,
well, I don't understand.

I don't even like, and so it's, I
don't, I don't value what women do.

I don't value their achievements.

I'm not going to put
any effort in with them.

As a fundamental lack of
respect and friendship,

Sam: where the woman would
literally be a waste of time.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

Yeah.

What's the point.

I'm not getting any,
the only thing, the only

Sam: thing that I would want is
not present in that relationship.

So yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Ali: So I think that's why.

The homoerotic.

I think that's why you're having.

The issue with that
particular word or like that.

That language, whereas I think.

Um, what Sam said that like homo social
sort of is probably more appropriate.

The homo

Sam: romantic.

Yeah.

Cause we now have language for all this
stuff because you'll find people now on

internet, who would say, are asleep
with these kinds of people, but I'm

romantic with these kinds of people.

It's interesting.

People are able to just.

Slice and dice it and not necessarily
make decisions, but like, this

is what they've experienced.

And that they want to date.

Uh, women and they want to sleep with men.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: Uh, but like, as in, I want to
have wonderful romantic relationships

with women where we, uh, we're.

we're close and we do nice
things for each other.

Oh.

But I also like to root mint.

Yeah.

And it's like, okay,
well that's, that's fair.

Whatever works, I guess.

And.

You know, I think there's a thing that's
been lurking beneath this, which is.

Well, cause you know, Maryland's not
saying whatever works is she she's saying.

She's there's.

There's an air of I'm
calling men out on this.

And that's fair.

I think it's worth doing.

But there's something
unstated there, which is.

Whatever her expectation of heterosexual
union was clearly, it has not

Ali: yet

Sam: delivered.

And so perhaps there was an over
expectation of something, you

know, I made there might've been
some romantic ideals in there.

Now, I'm not saying people shouldn't.

Want that.

But again.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Accused

Ali: of like, Like, I'm just thinking
of one specific example where like,

you know, talking about romance
or wanting romance and like yeah.

Them saying that's not,
that's just a fantasy.

That's like.

Yeah.

That's not real.

I'm not going to

Sam: crush your dreams.

And so I don't think it's impossible.

Ali: Yeah.

I think that was an excuse for.

You know, Poor effort.

Also potentially their view
of what romance looks like,

not aligning with my view.

Yes, absolutely.

I suppose it's then.

Taking a step back and then observing
them being romantic in the way that

I wanted to see you can do this.

Just not doing it yet.

Yeah.

Joe: Is that I get that.

Is your experience of men

as an adult that, yeah, they just want to,
they basically just want, as Marilyn said,

this one treat women as someone to fuck.

And that was to take

Sam: comfort with and to,
to, you know, to have.

Can you pull the quote up again?

There's like a romantic.

Sort of like this.

That's a bit about the.

Ali: I would say the fucking bit numb.

My experience of all men, certainly not.

No.

And certainly some men have
been really romantic with me.

but there are definitely some
that I, I get the, I don't

choose to date men like that.

Um, anymore, but there.

Then you

Joe: get a general vibe being out.

In the world that that's,
that's the majority of men.

They really just want to spend
their time hanging with their.

And then fuck someone who's a
woman when they feel like it.

And that would be the ideal scenario.

Then go back to watching the footy.

And is that like the majority case?

Or do you think that men say other
value in women maybe for the emotional.

Um, processing and if, if, and
maybe even some women, some men,

uh, proud of their women's careers.

And

Ali: I think that is probably more to
do with age and maturity and being in.

At this stage now, and, you know,
Socializing with men say in their

forties and beyond where they've.

obviously been in longterm partnerships
and they're learned, and they've

learned to appreciate those things.

Over time.

I think it was probably quite
different when I was younger.

And say like, yeah, in 10.

In adolescents in my twenties.

But I think also that is probably
to do with my experience of

going to yeses, separate schools
of, you know, gender schools.

they hadn't even had the men hadn't
even had the opportunity to even.

To be romantic with women in that way.

The only sort of experiences
that I've had were.

Yeah.

They're mates at school and hanging
out like on the weekends, like you

said, they weren't, they might not have
been in those long-term relationships.

So they don't.

So.

The muscle.

We'll

Sam: wake when it came
to, yeah, that's right.

Joe: Could you define romantic
simply as making an effort?

Before you get a root.

As opposed to just complete hookup, like
come over to my house, but also let's.

Is that what.

Because, I mean, we're all trying
to aren't we get over the idea

of romantic love after 200 years
of brain pollution or whatever.

Sam: Well, no, a certain kind of
unrealistic, romantic love, but

I'm going to hold onto an idea of
having sexual intimacy and this.

Like, it's hard to describe.

So we need to go back to the.

Making an effort though.

It's not the only thing.

It's wanting to spend, it's
wanting to spend time with them.

Aside from that.

Ali: It's wanting to yeah.

You know, ask them questions.

S hear about their day,
perhaps show genuine interest.

Show genuine appreciation for
your partner's achievements.

Like yeah.

I wouldn't call that romance.

I would

Joe: call that decency.

Sam: Oh, just friendship or like
enjoying, the fact they've got a

new album they're really enjoying
enjoy the fact they're enjoying it

and you, and you get to like it.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: You plan a weekend away that.

Contains things that you'll both enjoy
and things you'll enjoy separately.

You've shown that you've understood them.

Like the, the gifts make sense.

But also romance, um, the old
meaning a adventure, a quest, like.

Quest romance,

,
Ali: doing something together.

Real

Sam: suspense,

a sense of mystery of exploration.

There's this kind of spiritual
quality to it, or this kind of

esoteric quality to the word, what
is the moonlit walk on the beach?

It's not just a prelude to
a kiss or a fuck it's it's.

Ima a moonlit walk on the beach.

Let's think about that.

There's something cosmic about it.

There's a connection to the universe.

There's

Ali: if you're sort of looking at like the
context of like all the, those romantic.

Well, yeah, quests.

That have been immortalized
in literature and film.

Yeah.

Have predominantly been
men with other men.

Like if you're thinking
like Lord of the rings.

Sure.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know, hearing the stories of.

Yeah.

Or like, you know, battles and
things, and it's a comradery and

those adventures that romance.

The thing that they,
that shared experience.

That is a mortalized in
the, you know, in that.

In the cultural landscape.

It's between men.

It's not between.

Yeah.

No, you don't have the big adventure
of a man and a woman going off.

Outside of like traditionally.

Joe: Yeah.

I mean, they've tried to turn on ahead
and it's got a bit cringe trying to,

you know, jam female roles in with.

But, but I would also say.

Let's go, let's go because yeah, go onto.

I don't think women would
actually like a male friendship.

In the way that they think they
would, because what you'd be getting

is three word, text messages.

A lot of sitting in silence,
watching television and grunting.

A lot of like, like you.

I just don't think you think you want it
because you think that's where the most

respect and kindness is, but actually.

Traditional straight male
to male friendship is.

It's so different.

Ali: You're in when you're just
being, as you would say, like a not

communicating, you're holding space.

To be there with your
friend and a lot of women.

Yeah.

That's like,

Joe: don't make it weird
by talking about feelings.

Ali: It's just holding the
space that I think a lot of

men still struggled actually.

I agree.

To there with their female partners.

Yeah.

Like actually holding space

Sam: or struggle to do it with
anybody, maybe in a lot of cases, but.

Here, you wanted refreshing on the quote.

In their relations with whom and
what passes for respect is kindness,

generosity, or paternalism.

What passes for honor his
removal to the pedestal.

From women, they want
devotion service and sex.

And I was thinking, you know, Neil young,
a man needs a maid, just someone to keep

my house clean, cook my meals and go away.

And devotion

Joe: devotion, service
and sex was that yes.

Sam: And really in 2024, though.

I think, I think it's a bit strong,
but there are still plenty of blokes

who make a point of saying that's
what they want out of a marriage.

And.

Ali: Huge movement of, yeah.

If you look at the rise of, you
know, the particularly like, you

know, The masculine and feminine
divide within damaging and trends.

A lot of that, like, you
know, inhabiting your.

Joe: A friend of mine was working
for a builder and he was a bit older.

And he was talking about his problems with
his partner and being a bit complicated.

And he said, mate, All I'm looking for
as a full stomach and an empty sack.

Oh, Jesus Christ.

So that.

So that kind of.

That would be

Sam: that guy's wife.

Joe: To me.

That

Sam: must be nice.

Joe: That's a throwback up, like
I dunno, 70 years or something.

Sam: So that makes you cringe.

Joe: I've never spoken, like.

I've never thought like that,
because what I want is to be

tortured in the most complex.

You do want

Sam: romance?

Joe: I'm trying to get.

I wish I just wanted a full stomach
and an empty sack, but I couldn't

give a fuck if someone could cook.

All I want to know is can they
get inside my mind and torture me?

And if the answer is yes.

Then I'm interested.

Yeah, that's

Sam: right.

There is a level of respect in that.

Joe: It's just twist.

I'm not typical.

If that's typical.

Ali: He said that in his
wedding vows and it went viral.

We said exactly that pretty much exactly.

That.

Horrified like that.

Yeah.

And I, yeah.

The comments were just
like, leave him now.

Like.

What are you doing?

Like, no, but even just as.

Joe: He's being honest.

Oh, well then shit you
hearing waiting about.

Jesus.

Sam: Are there any men piling on in there?

In the comments.

I'd hope so.

Ali: think there were a
few, but like, like, yeah.

And.

It comes back to like those sorts of, do
you even like women, like D do you even.

Thank your partner.

Yeah, that's the thing.

I think a lot of men don't.

Actually like their partner.

Outside of those.

Yeah.

So, I mean, we almost need

Joe: like high quality.

Yeah.

Polling data for, yeah.

Australia or something to know
how many men want a complex.

Interesting career woman.

And how many men just
want a housewife, right?

Like.

And an honest poll.

I don't know what those numbers would.

I mean.

Also

Sam: people are bad at predicting
what will make them happy.

So they think they want
a certain something.

Then they get it.

Then they're like, ah, Actually I
have been underestimating the fact

that I value intelligence in women,
you know, I've seen this happen.

This

Joe: other cultural trend Wolf.

We'll, we'll wrap it up, but the Ali's
all over this and I've seen signs of it.

I don't really understand
it, but it's yeah.

There's cultural trend.

I've seen it on dating apps too.

And they're always these women,
they talk about polarities

Ali: and being in their feminine energy.

That's.

And then they say,

Joe: I want you to be in your
masculine energy and take control.

And I want to stay in my femininity.

Mm, and polarity is the part.

I have no idea what they're
talking about, but that's.

Ali: I seems to be.

Yeah,

Joe: but powerful move.

Ali: I'd say growing.

You've

Joe: talked about women who
want to be a housewife again.

Ali: Yeah.

And I think, I mean, that probably
comes down to the stresses and the

pressures that women are on and that.

Yeah.

And yeah, that wanting someone in their
masculine energy, basically someone

who will take the lead and organize
a date and do something thoughtful

and, you know, We'll just be specific.

Yeah.

Sit back and relax and just be present.

Michael the decision.

Sam: There's nothing wrong
with, I think you could be

perfectly on your square to say.

In the profile or in an exchange,
man, I would just love someone

else to do the organizing.

I think that's fine.

But to do.

Put all this jargon on,
it seems a bit silly.

I say, just communicate
clearly, everybody.

Joe: Like if you went to one of
those women and said, look, I'm

at 250 grand a year, I just want
a full stomach and an empty stack.

But probably be up for it.

Oh, well, you have to go along with.

I'm in my polarity to UN.

I can't be honest.

He just got a bullshit.

Sam: Do you know what Joe would?

I think that sounds to me
like do some psychotherapy.

Yeah.

What's going on in there is a bit
of, I actually really struggled

to communicate my needs properly.

I really struggle with boundaries.

What I want you to do is figure out
what I want and then make that happen

because I'm a child and I can't.

Yeah.

All right.

Experiment.

When I try to imagine
mainstream the blunt.

Joe: I try and imagine mainstream
Australia, because I'm a bit of a weirdo.

And I'm living.

What is that?

Even.

So, all right here, I'll give you a.

Picture, I'll paint you a picture.

You live in torquey down
the great ocean road.

You go surfing at six o'clock
every morning, then you drive

into the city in your $50,000.

And you work on a construction site.

Now.

That gosh, it's a niche lifestyle.

Like all the others.

Yeah.

That guy.

I would expect.

His partner to have a career.

And I don't think he would be too worried
if that partner's career was quite

fulfilling and meaningful to that partner.

I think the mainstream in Australia.

There there isn't like stay home and wear

Sam: a fucking fly.

I think most, most blokes I
know would be like, what do you

mean you're not going to work?

Ali: Well, there's bills to pay.

Yeah, that they are men want.

Like they want the 50, 50.

Like, yeah.

Economic benefits.

Relationship, but they don't necessarily.

One to then do the 50, 50 of the unpaid.

Domestic labor, but they still expect
their partner to bring all of that.

Once you said there's probably truth.

You know, fucking and.

And bring in a paycheck.

Sam: Yeah.

Ali: Which is, I think why
there's been this pushback of

women going, you know what?

Hang on.

You can pay.

I fact, there's 50 50.

I'm going to sit back and just
let you take me out and do that

because I already do enough.

Sam: Yeah, no look, but in fairness
to all, I think that's true.

What you said, Ali.

And there's, also a little bit of
a converse that goes with it, which

is I do want a modern man who, you
know, communicates respectfully

and does not have this sense of
entitlement and all the rest of it.

But I also.

Do expect him to carry out some old
fashioned mail rolls at the same

time, fixing things Carry certain
patriarchal burdens the privileges.

And then there are blokes who say,
yeah, I want you to carry the burden

of work, but also the burden of.

Domestic labor.

I think there's a lot of people trying to
have a bet each way, everywhere you look.

Joe: I don't think you'd get too
far in Australia expecting your

part, your female partner to be
completely subservient to you.

I just don't think that.

Maybe it flies in other
parts of the world.

Ali: think it's it's, it's stronger.

In the us, and that's where a
lot of these evangelical themes.

Yeah, the religious context to
it, but also the economic problem.

Pretty

Sam: big in Saudi Arabia, too.

Right?

I just feel if I encounter it, this
subservient vibe in a woman, I just

immediately feel weird and uncomfortable.

It feels very.

It feels dishonest to me,
honestly, I don't trust it.

And I think.

Joe: Ever ended up on a date with one of
the polarity being your masculine energy.

We recommend it,

Sam: I think I wouldn't be
the only man who's noticed.

That their female partner.

Seemed to care more at times
what the female friend thought.

Them, you know, Art,
the bloke things like a

Joe: pressing issue or.

No, just like, as you know
of what they're wearing.

Yeah.

Ali: absolutely.

Going to ask my girlfriends.

And as Lee said

Joe: that you leave.

We leave for that compliment
from other windows.

And then all the girls walk
by dressed up for each other.

That's right.

Ali: Absolutely.

Yeah.

There's some things.

Absolutely.

It is

Sam: true about a lot of women.

Ali: Yeah, we absolutely value
women's opinions about certain things.

Higher than men's.

Absolutely.

And

Sam: that if you had your choice of a
day out with your male partner or a day

out with a woman, you like and admire
it's, it's, it's not much of a contest.

And, the number of times in
that within heterosexual unions.

That I've actually.

Felt that the other person chose things.

I would enjoy it.

To do that day.

Not a lot of the time I got
to say, I don't, didn't always

feel very well understood.

Or accounted for, or like, all the
thoughtfulness was thoughtfulness.

That would make sense with someone
else, like with another woman,

but it didn't make sense with me.

Conversation with somebody

Ali: recently who had.

Um, I'd organize a date for them.

And yeah, they were like, this
is exactly the kind of thing

I would have wanted to do.

And was lamenting the fact that like,
But his birthday, the previous year,

when he was in this partnership, they had
Oregon, they had organized or chosen to

do something that was absolutely not what.

He wanted to do, and he
didn't feel safe in head.

Which I think, yeah, a lot.

I mean, a lot of, yeah.

I mean, while we're back.

That quote, I suppose, speaks to the
experience of women and feeling that there

certainly are men who do not feel seen
and heard and to feel seen and heard.

I think that's a very human thing
to want to be seen and heard.

Sam: And I think that there's
an intense homosocial homosocial

reality in many heterosexual women.

And.

I don't and we're not meant
to have a problem with it.

And so Maryland's calling something out.

Leaving aside, you know, the
long history of patriarchy.

Can we also say this is a thing we can
observe in many heterosexual women.

And is that a problem?

So, is it necessarily a
problem in the other direction?

Well, it depends on what
expectations are coming with it.

If a woman said.

Yeah.

I'm only interested in men
for devotion service and sex.

Um, yeah, I think we might object
and I like to think we're almost

at a point where we expect.

Uh, behavioral standards among
men and women to be the same.

Like am I.

Are we there?

Ali: I don't think we're quite
there, but, um, and so can we call

Sam: childishness out wherever we see it?

Can we call selfishness
out wherever we see it?

Yeah.

So many men have failed to understand
their female partners have failed

to listen and have failed to really
account for what they would like

and what their true interests are.

And can we also say that so many
women fail to do that and the

group, the great joy for me of the

Joe: male friendship.

Is the complete dependability of it.

So that like Sam, I
hadn't seen for 10 years.

And then we pull up.

That's in the car.

We drive to a Chuco.

And it's like, yeah.

There's no need to say, Hey man, how come?

Sorry.

You're uncontactable.

And how come you ignore
those five text messages?

That's right.

And why don't you care about me?

And didn't, you know,
This is none of that.

It's like getting the car
dickhead and that's all.

It's done.

It's not like succeeding.

Underneath.

I can have

Ali: friendships like that with.

I hope so.

A really long time.

And then when you catch
up at no time has passed.

It's exactly the same.

A hundred percent beautiful feeling, but.

Yeah.

Joe: So, yeah, let's finish it up.

But.

And maybe that's

Sam: easier for women to experience
with other women sometimes.

Yeah.

Joe: The problem with writing
a well-worded academic

article on male friendship.

Yeah.

It's I think it's so fucking simple.

You might actually miss it.

Um, and you can't really put
the big words and all that.

They don't really.

It's at the level of
like caveman grunting.

And passing around a hunk of meat.

Um, if you can think of it, if
you can conceive of it like that.

And not make it complex.

You'll have a much better understanding
of Malmo to male friendship.

Sam: I don't know,

Ali: man.

I think you're selling yourself short.

I think so.

Men want and need more than that.

All relationships are

Sam: rich and complicated.

Yeah.

Ali: And what you're getting from that
is actually a lot more, like I said,

your it's a space that your male friends
are holding for you to just be, yeah.

It's actually providing a lot
more than just grunting and.

And can I tell you that?

Joe: As this is the nonverbal
communication of sitting.

They're in a car.

Sam: But the incredible subtlety.

Of what goes on.

And that did the subtle ways that.

Someone's feeling might be acknowledged
and, you know, like without causing

embarrassment or loss of face, And
I can tell you, I know the subtlety.

Yeah.

Because complex.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, no.

I see what you're saying.

I think it's a bit of false binary, but
also I can say I've seen the subtlety

of it because I've gotten it wrong so
many times with other men and maybe

it's ISD, or maybe it's something else,
but like, Oh, something's not right.

I have not done this the right way.

So I, so from my outsider alien
perspective, it's a complex little

dance if you want my opinion, but.

To you, it's simple because
you know, the moves.

Joe: It reminds me of the start of the
first episode or the first episode of

Sopranos that it goes into therapy.

Sam: Yeah.

Joe: And he said.

It says whatever happened to Gary
Cooper, the strong, silent type.

Like I can think of a friendship I
forced in the last five years, just

sitting next to someone at the footy.

And we might say something once an hour.

And I do it for a couple of years
and he's like one of my closest

friends and we've never even spoken.

Um, that's cool.

I love that shit.

That clinic, clean ACE food, masculinity,
that kind of like roll into town.

Like on a, on horseback, who is this guy?

Sam: Right?

Did you hear about Gary?

Yeah.

I forgot to go to the GP for 20 years.

Joe: See you later.

Ali: Yeah.