Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes, and I'm so excited to kick off our very first episode on our very first season with someone who needs no introduction and who is probably the premier thinker when it comes to Orthodox Christian parenting. Doctor Philip Mamalakis, who is the author of the classic Orthodox parenting book Parenting Toward the Kingdom. Doctor.
Michelle Moujaes:Mamalakis teaches pastoral care at Hellenic College Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology in Boston, Massachusetts. He's been a longtime collaborator with us here at Faith Tree and most importantly, he's the father of seven children. And now he's a grandfather of two. Orthodox parenting is different. It's not just about good behavior or raising perfect kids.
Michelle Moujaes:It's really about forming the heart and mind in light of eternity with the ultimate goal of what Orthodox Christians would call theosis or union with God. Today, we're digging into what makes Orthodox parenting unique and why the vision matters so much in today's noisy, fast paced world. We'll get practical. We'll have some laughs, and we're gonna leave you with some real tools to bring faith into your family life. Welcome, Philip.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle. It's a delight to be here.
Michelle Moujaes:I'm so happy that you're here. Okay. We just used a really big word. We said theosis, and that theosis is the goal for Orthodox Christian parents. So let's talk a little bit about that because that is a big Greek word.
Michelle Moujaes:Is it Greek? Yes. It Okay. Tell us about it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I wanna say I'm so glad you're doing this program because I remember when Georgia and I were walking out of the hospital with our first child, Kidana, thirty years ago. Oh my gosh. So we're holding this baby, and we're walking out of the hospital. And I'm thinking to myself, they should probably not let us take this child home on
Michelle Moujaes:a day. So true. We felt that way.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like, we have no idea what to do. Like, at least in the hospital, the nurses were caring
Michelle Moujaes:for us. That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We're going home, and you get the sense, we're responsible for everything.
Michelle Moujaes:We have to keep them alive.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. We have to keep them alive. And I don't know how to do that. You know, we barely learn to keep ourselves alive at that age.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? So we see that right away. Parenting that that's not a flaw of parenting. That's a feature of parenting. It's about learning.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We have to learn. So when you hear big words like theosis, what does that mean? Well, I think that's good to talk about because it's good to learn what is our role as parents. What is our job? Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. So I was just at a church recently, and I was coming out of the church afterward into, like, the the the area outside. And I right away, I saw two little boys, an adorable four year old looking boy with his little three or two year old little brother. Were they were standing amidst the shrubs and on top of these rocks. It was like a rock little shrubs.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And in their hands, they had fists fulls of rocks.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:That looks like it. I think
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:anyone who has boys has had that experience of that horror because I knew exactly what they wanted to do with those rocks. There was windows on the side of the building, and they were looking at it. And I had just talked to the parents about these experiences we have with our boys. So I went over there. And you think about this instinct, you know, it's like to scream.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You can't do that. Stop doing that. But is that really like, what's our goal for these two boys?
Michelle Moujaes:I'm gonna go with not throwing rocks at the window. Right. Like, I was the mom
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:In the short term
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You would think our job is to not have them throw those rocks Yes. Into that window. Well, if that's our goal, why not just scream at them? Why not scream at them? Why not call them horrible children?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And why not get them out of there and yell at them to go back to their parents? Alright. We've stopped them from breaking the window. Okay. Is that really our goal?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Now I'm thinking it's not the goal.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What's the goal? It is my instinct is to panic and to think of that, number one. And number two, that's that's kind of an immediate short term goal. I'm not saying they can throw the rock Yeah. Fair fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:No. But what's unique about orthodox parenting is that our long term goal is not to raise two boys who never throw rocks in windows. Right? I have a hunch they're gonna learn that eventually.
Michelle Moujaes:Sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? But our goal as parents is what kind of men do we want these two boys to grow up to become? And we talk that we kinda think about, well, that talks about success. Right? And so for the Orthodox Church, there's a sense that we understand that our our purpose in life is to be united with God.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We were created by a God who's a communion of three persons to be in that communion with God. So in a sense, our goal is to raise up two boys who know who they are as children of God and have a sense that I wanna respond to that love of God by being by offering myself back to God, essentially to grow up as a healthy person, but really to know God, to know who they are, and to have that true wisdom, which Saint John Chrysostom says. True wisdom is to know God and to respond. So, like, oh, so our goal is not to get our kids to behave. Our goal is to raise up kids who know who they are Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Know what it means to be a human, know how to live and thrive, which for us is communion with God.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So let me let me ask you then. So you're in this situation.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So you're in this situation.
Michelle Moujaes:So what's how do you do all of that when there's rocks in their hands? What's that look like?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, think about how are we supposed to instill in our kids this sense that God is Trinity, God madly loves you, and your call fullness of life is to be in communion with God?
Michelle Moujaes:I don't know.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Well, you can imagine, maybe we should lecture them and keep telling them, you are children of God, and God loves you, while we're screaming at them to get them to not throw a rock in the window. You know, intuitively, we're like, alright. That doesn't work.
Michelle Moujaes:It doesn't work.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So it's not by accident that this story took place outside of church. Right? That this was the kids were coming out of church. Because at the heart of instilling in children this internal identity, right, that who they are. Because they're gonna go out into the world, and the world is gonna give them a whole lot of different messages
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:About what is success, how to get ahead, what you need. Right? And we're not in the business of raising kids who are afraid of the world because we don't have a God that fears the world. We have a God that loves the world. We wanna raise up kids who when they go out into the world, they have such a sense of the light of Christ that they don't really fear the world because they've experienced that God's love is the strongest force in the universe.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That you will encounter crazy. You will encounter sin. You'll encounter different values and priorities. But I know who I am, and I have a peace in that. So I don't have to hate the world.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I just need to know who I am. So it's not gonna happen from screaming with our kids. It's not gonna happen through lecture. In fact, it's gonna happen through the hundreds and thousands of interactions Mhmm. That we have with our kids.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because if you use that window example, you know, the church helps us understand, you know, who these children are. Well, are they doing something wrong? Well, you could say throwing a rock through a window is wrong. But really, you know, are they choosing to do that? Well, when you're four
Michelle Moujaes:Right. You have energy and
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You know, God gave them this energy. They they're kinda creative. Their their brain is functioning, but their judgment hasn't quite developed there.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. I like that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So from an orthodox perspective, our goal is not to eradicate sin in our children. That's not how the church approaches sin. The church doesn't say you've gotta crush the will of your child such that they never sin because the that's not the orthodox way. Our priests aren't preaching stop sin. Our our priests are preaching the orthodox understanding of the good news of the gospel of returning back towards Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The church will preach what we are called to do. Patience, kindness, gentleness, self control. Not quit being rude, quit being mean, quit being selfish, quit, you know, quit being dumb. Right? So the orthodox way is to constantly, we might say as parents, redirecting us.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Redirecting us toward the good. Like in church, the priest doesn't turn around and say, quit getting distracted all the time, even though we are all distracted all the time.
Michelle Moujaes:Time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:He turns around and says, let us be attentive.
Michelle Moujaes:Yep. I love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So this is the beautiful orthodox way. It's not that we don't understand sin or take sin seriously. It's not that mistakes are okay and we should celebrate them. It's just it's God's love which invites us toward the good, the true, and the beautiful.
Michelle Moujaes:So let me just get practical then. So you're standing, and there's a two year old and a four year old, and you're trying to redirect them and stop them from breaking the church, you know, same glass windows.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Alright. You say stop them. Okay. But is that really our goal to stop every boy from ever throwing a rock ever through a window?
Michelle Moujaes:So you say go throw it over there. Is that what you do?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Notice. That's a redirect.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that's good. But I wanna take a step back.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I think for the first episode, we gotta really understand what is our long term goal.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And we we have to reject the notion that my long term goal is that my boy will never throw rock through a window. Like, our kids will never make a mistake. I mean, how is that a goal? That's a temptation. Because, of course, in church, we wanna make sure our kids never make a mistake.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Well, because why? Because we're embarrassed. Mhmm. We feel like a failure. They're gonna make us look bad.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. Is that really about the four year old? Is that about our pride, our insecurity, our image? And the Orthodox Church invites us to kinda reject those types of masks because God can't heal the person I'm pretending to be. God can only heal the person I am.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's so good. Let me say it back. God cannot heal the person I'm pretending to be.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right. Or who I want everyone to think I am.
Michelle Moujaes:And for everybody to think I
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Like God can't heal the intact, healthy, matching outfit family we are in church. So funny. But he can heal The struggling family that's melting down on the way to church because we're late. Yes. We were fighting over whose shoes they really were or where are the shoes.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the beauty as Orthodox is you recommend that God loves us. God came into the world for our brokenness, for our weakness, and it's parenting uniquely challenges us to face that because we don't know what to do. Yeah. We, as parents, we will make mistakes. Kids are kind of constant because you could I could tell you, and I will tell you a strategy for those two boys, but guess what they're gonna do in twenty minutes?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Three
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:minutes. Another rock and another window. And my son, Marcos, who is a fine young man now, when he was four, he never saw a rock he didn't wanna throw.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And should he be punished for being a four year old boy? No. But he needs to be accompanied by an adult.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So now right away, we see kind of these elements of orthodox parenting. Number one, it happens within the life of the church because those two boys were part of this community. Because if we want to raise kids who know God and know themselves, it's gonna happen within the life of the church. We wanna raise kids who when they go to church, it doesn't feel like a strange foreign place. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It feels like they're home.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Which means we are living our family lives connected to the community, you know, oriented toward the cycle of the church. Because it's easy as parents to get pulled away to we gotta get them educated. We gotta get them, you know, into sports. We gotta get them into music, or they need to learn languages. You know, we get all these pressures.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And really what got what the church reveals to us, actually, success. You know, they may have talent in these areas. We support education. But to be living attached to the church community such that we raise up kids with a sense that life is not just about the family and learning stuff. Life is about the family embedded within the life giving community.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Number one. Number two, do you know those two boys who are by the window? Right? I didn't know them. I was visiting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And it's really tempting as parents to get so distracted by misbehavior that we lose sight of the person who's learning something, who desires something, who's feeling something. Right? Who's Oh, that's Yeah. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so the orthodox way is, yes, we have a lot of rules in our church. We have a lot of canons and commandments. Right? And remember, Christ didn't come to abolish the law, but he came to fulfill it.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And Christ fulfilled the law by as a person becoming human, taking on our humanity, and encountering us personally. You know, he called the apostles by name. The people he healed was in a personal encounter. The Samaritan woman, he approached and revealed. So as the Orthodox, we are more concerned about loving persons and inviting them into this relationship with God in church than we are about correcting behavior, making sure everyone behaves the right way.
Michelle Moujaes:K. I wanna say the back. So the first thing is that we are in community In the life of in the life of the church. So that's the first takeaway of what makes Orthodox parenting really unique or what does Orthodox parenting look like. And then the second thing is we really wanna take time to be person to person.
Michelle Moujaes:We wanna make sure that we see the child in front of us before we're worried about behavior. Oh, I like it. Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's that there's that third thing, which is really this is uniquely orthodox. We are not here to correct and eradicate sin.
Michelle Moujaes:That's a big one. Let's talk about that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I talk to parents who after I give a parenting doctor, oh my gosh. I always thought it was you know, I've been taught they've come from other traditions where that's bad what my kid did. We have to stop sin to get my kids to act like Christians. And the Orthodox way is like, yes. Sin severs communions.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Sin severs us from God. It it breaks relations. Sin is definitely a problem. But Christ didn't come to fix the problem. He he came he fixed the problem by offering himself in love.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So the orthodox way about sin is it's love and this invitation to repent that what we're focused on. We're focused on redirecting our kids toward the good, not constantly telling them to stop the bad.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. I got I need clarity on this, and I feel really bad for my own four children at home because this is definitely not what I did with them. I'm the one teaching,
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:and our parenting, it's like we're not supposed to do this perfectly. Because remember the first thing I learned when we take our kids home, parenting is about learning.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. For sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the Orthodox Church invites learning, not perfection.
Michelle Moujaes:Amazing. Okay. So let's drill down for just a minute about eradicating sin. So the things that are coming to my mind, tell me what that looks like for parents. Like, does that mean we have no boundaries and then we're just there teaching repentance?
Michelle Moujaes:Does that mean that we I mean, obviously, if there's danger, I'm gonna go with probably we would stop danger. But what does it look like
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:To focus our children on
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Let's go back to those two adorable boys.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Go for it. Tell me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Fist full of rocks.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my goodness.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? First of what do we see? Do we see something wrong? Or can you can you delight in these adorable kids who are just so filled with life? It's just their judgment hasn't caught up with their desires.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Fair.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We call that four years old. Yes. That is not a problem. That's a feature of childhood. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So what it looks like is we gotta celebrate these two guys as we're coming in. Because remember, we're gonna do everything we can so that rock doesn't go through that window.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But that's not our highest goal to engage these kids, to learn. Think about our goal with these two boys is not that we control them, but over time, they learn to control themselves.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That makes sense.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But that's not gonna come from a lecture. It's gonna come from us journeying with them. And it's gonna come from these thousands of interactions where their impulse is to do this. So we wanna be in a relationship with them. We wanna be close to them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We wanna know their name. And so, like, I think about the children in your church that are not your own. Our goal is to know their name. Mhmm. Right?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So we can say, I wish I could have said, Johnny or Billy, what do you got going there?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. If I had known their name, I wouldn't have had to run over there. I would have called them. Right? Because any sort of teaching toward the good requires a relationship.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And all that
Michelle Moujaes:say that again. That's good. Any sort of teaching toward the good requires relationship.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I want those two boys not just to learn that it's I can't throw this rock through the window. I want them to feel this this sense that this this guy loves me. This guy knows me me. This adult actually delights in me, takes an interest in me. Because parenting is about setting a limit.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You may not throw that rock through their window. But look, it comes out of someone someone who knows me, someone who delights in me Mhmm. Someone who takes an interest in me.
Michelle Moujaes:I think it's so much easier to take feedback from people when you know that they love you. If they delight in you, even better.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because you know they can be very context of what helps us repent.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's when someone who has your back. Mhmm. Who says, I love you, and that freezes up to say, alright. I really screwed up.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? Because the temptation is, I'm gonna help you realize your faults by criticizing you and correcting you. That's not love. What helps us realize where we need to learn and grow is get the sense that someone who really knows me, delights in me, takes an interest in me, and is walking alongside me. That's parenting.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because then we can say, it's really not okay what you did. Right. And so there's that kind of an inappropriate type of I feel guilty about what I did, but it's not gonna crush me. It's actually gonna compel me to do better.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. That's great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You see how this discipline, which is really important from the word disciple, comes out of that relationship. Because what's really interesting in Greek, the word for disciple is a translation from the Greek word, Mathitus.
Michelle Moujaes:Mathitus.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Mathitus actually means student.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So it's over 200 times it's used in the New Testament. They talk about Jesus' Mathites, Jesus' translated disciples. But, actually, these are Jesus' students. So just think about what it means to be a Christian is we are students of Christ. And what I learned at seminary was that was the title Jesus preferred is to be a teacher.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And so we see this in orthodox parenting, and it comes out of the orthodox Christian life that we're called to be students. And the most significant characteristic of a student is learning Sure. Which means we're not supposed to already know how to parent. A a four year old is are is already not supposed to know that you don't throw rocks. Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? So we the church nurtures a culture of learning.
Michelle Moujaes:So I'm gonna push on this one then. So a four year old doesn't know. So let's get practical for our audience. Does that mean that we allow them to figure it out or that we're always doing kind of total redirection without letting them to make the mistake? Like, what does that look like in Think
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:about because if we come from a a disposition of teaching k. I tell parents we can't expect mastery from our kids, but we expect learning.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And if we start to learn how to teach, we have actually an array of choices. Sometimes it's just saying no. You may not do that. Think about how we teach our children to drive. We're not giving them choices.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Know?
Michelle Moujaes:By the way, we're doing that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's my least Oh. Favorite You know? No. There are some things. This is how it's done.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We are very directive. But if if the our whole parenting relationship is constantly being that directive to our children like we are when they're learning to drive, our kids will go nuts. And as soon as they're old enough, they're gonna split. Yeah. So learning parenting is, first of all, learning that it is about teaching.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And now learning in this moment kind of the different choices I have. Because sometimes we actually have to yell. Like, if I had seen this little guy winding up
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. I might have said, hey. I might have startled him to freeze because I don't want him to throw that rock.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But in this moment, we talked about another strategy, redirect. Like you said, hey, guys. How about we throw a ball over there on the grass? That's a great redirect.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? So we got a lot of different choices.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. In in your book, I know in the beginning, if you don't have the book, get the book. This is the book, the book. Get the book. Parenting toward the kingdom, Orthodox Christian principles of child rearing.
Michelle Moujaes:It's so fun. But you talked about two of your girls. I think they were fighting over, pillows. And in the book, you kinda chronicle, I had to think about what was my highest, you know, desire at that point. Did I just wanna get through my meal with my wife?
Michelle Moujaes:Did I want them not to break, you know, the vase in the living room? Did I want them to learn peace? Did I just want them to be quiet? Right. So I like that that as much as you have an array of choices on what you're gonna do, you actually have an array of highest desires.
Michelle Moujaes:What is your highest goal? So talk to me
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:about that. So the book talks nicely about our short term goals and then our long term goals. And I think the two boys with the window. Right? It reminds us of any situation.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Our kids are they're back talking us at bedtime, or they're making noise and fighting at the dinner table. It's like, right now, I just wanna get dinner served. Right now, we just have stuff to do. I just want a peaceful house. I just want that kid not to break the window.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Those are short term goals, And it's easy to get distracted by our short term goals and lose sight of our long term goals. I wanna raise boys. I wanna raise children who learn, who've acquired kindness, who've acquired patience, who have acquired self control. Right? And so oftentimes, these short term goals are actually distractions.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the way we work, hoard our long term goals, is in those little moments thinking long term. Yeah. Those boys don't need to be yelled at. I don't need to yell at my kids. I need to engage them and say, what's going on?
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the parenting is not a short term strategy. It is a long term commitment. Oof. How will our children acquire patience? Over time.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? How will they develop, you know, forgiveness? How will they learn to forgive each other? Over time. How will they learn that God loves them and we are created in his image?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Over time.
Michelle Moujaes:That's really actually quite freeing for parents because it gives this, understanding that we're not gonna nail it at the beginning. Like, you know, you have you ever seen those parents that their kids are just so well behaved and they just do everything that you would want your kid to do. There's not messy. They're totally camped beautifully and everybody's tailored and everybody kind of sits where they want them to. There's that.
Michelle Moujaes:And then there's the other end of the spectrum, which is I know we went to visit one of my children in college and the family in front of us in church. Literally, it was hilarious. The boys were, like, kicking, you know, where they do that really hard kick against the pew. One of them actually was ripping the pages out of the bible. The parents were so trying to stay calm and nurture and redirect.
Michelle Moujaes:I think most families have moments of both and typically fall somewhere in the middle. Right. But what does that what does that look like then? How do you Right. Measure if you're on, you know, the if you're trending in the right direction, how do you know that?
Michelle Moujaes:Like Right. Are you winning?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That's a great question because don't we kinda wanna know? Because there's something about parenting where I feel like I'm always failing. Like, you know how when you're when you're parent That's
Michelle Moujaes:so true.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I I totally understand that. In a day, and you never get to any of them because this came and this came. So it's really hard at the end of the day to not feel like this day was just lost.
Michelle Moujaes:We lost. We lost. It was a war, and they won.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think that's a temptation because the goal of orthodox parenting is an inner goal with the life of your child. We we direct and teach external behaviors for an internal purpose.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But you don't just let your kids do whatever they want. Right. But what you're doing is you're you're setting limits to your child, giving choices, disciplining them for an internal purpose so that they acquire this internal disposition oriented toward God, self identity about being a child of God, tasting the joy of of the values and the virtues of the kingdom of God so that when they grow up, alright, they walk away. They grow go to college. They know what's true and right and good about themselves.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that comes through the messiness. So you can have a day of what looks like failure. You go to bed, and, you know, the the house is still trashed. You never got to the dishes.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You never got those projects done. But, really, did you engage your kids? Were you present? Were you did you try and be peaceful? Did you apologize?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Were they learning to apologize to each other? Mhmm. Did they get back up again? Right? Like, because the day is filled with life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The day is filled with learning to love. So I tell parents, focus on the number one thing. I'm gonna just try and be peaceful and just stay in that game. Because that it's the inner life we're focusing on, not to have a clean house. Now the next day, I would you go to your kid and say, alright.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That was not okay. We need to clean the living room. We need to pick up our toys. We may not go out to play before you're doing this. We have rules and we have discipline, but the way we teach them is aimed at transforming their inner life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Our goal is not we have the cleanest house, we have the most orderly kids, because oftentimes, that's almost our pride that wants to.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. For sure.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We wanna look like we have our act together. Yes. It's a temptation.
Michelle Moujaes:So much.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And it's a temptation in church because we're afraid that, oh, look at them. That that family is a wreck. So in my church, everyone knows I wrote a parenting book, and I'm I'm really committed. Do you know what kind of kids I have because I wrote a parenting book? Normal children.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They do not care I wrote a parenting They barely paid attention to my parenting book.
Michelle Moujaes:That's
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:right. Were just and my boys were just boys. And my goal was not to have not have perfect kids. My goal was to follow these principles so I am peaceful. I am in the mix with them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I am walking with them, guiding them, teaching them about how we live.
Michelle Moujaes:Tell me what you mean by inner
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:life. Great. It's a great question. Number one, how I feel. Like, am I sad?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Am I scared? Am I bored? Am I lonely? Like, we have this whole inner world, which at some level, we can just talk about feelings. To thrive as an adult in adult relationships requires us to be able to name and communicate and express our feelings.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And how do we learn that? When are our children gonna learn that I feel sad, and here's what I do when I'm sad? That I feel angry, and here's what I do when I'm angry. That I feel lonely, and here's what I do when I'm lonely. That's parenting, and it's gonna happen through the struggles of family life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The other aspect of inner life has to do with do I feel loved? Do I feel valued? Do I feel known? Do I feel cared for? That's a part of our inner life.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And that there's a lot of evidence that kids do best when they feel like someone knows me, someone cares about me, someone has my back. Mhmm. It's almost like and it's really interesting. The research will indicate kids who have that sense do better. They resist temptation.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They have good self discipline. They're more motivated. They essentially feel successful Mhmm. Than kids who don't have just that. And what's interesting is that the social science research parallels the teaching of the church.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because the goal of parenting is for a child to know that there's a God who knows me deeply Mhmm. Cares about me powerfully, takes an interest in me. Like, we're created for that, the church tells us. And so parenting is about living like that toward our children such that they internalize this sense that we have an all knowing God who knows everything about us and madly loves us, delights in us, and takes an interest in us, and desires for us to be in communion with him. So that's this inner life.
Michelle Moujaes:Love it. Thank you.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Okay. Teach kids that? Well, let me tell you.
Michelle Moujaes:Tell me.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:When they're picking up a bunch of rocks
Michelle Moujaes:Getting ready to throw them
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:in the ready to throw in the window.
Michelle Moujaes:Amazing. Okay. We have a bunch of questions that came in from our audience, and I'm just gonna ask you two. So Aaron asks, how can we adapt the aesthetic wisdom of the fathers about anger to domestic situations when losing your temper and being overwhelmed that inevitable occurrences like babies crying or toddler stubbornness happen so often?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's a great question. You know, it's inner life I mentioned sadness and anger because these are some of the powerful ones.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. They show up.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I think it's important, number one, to talk to someone who understands the orthodox aesthetic tradition, who understands it well. Because there's two things we can't really do. You may not we may not apply the ascetic tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church, which is written for adults, to a four year old or a
Michelle Moujaes:six year old. Wisdom.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:A six year old is supposed to get angry because they get overwhelmed. Mhmm. Because remember, the goal is learning such that when I'm an adult, I know what to do when I'm feeling angry. Great. Number two, it's really important to understand this whole aesthetic tradition.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's in the context of what we've been talking about, learning and growing. We're not supposed to have mastered self control. We're supposed to have learned what to do when we get angry. Mhmm. So my answer to that is we take every anger episode very seriously.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? But we don't condemn ourselves. We're not trying to control ourselves. So what I recommend is that whenever you feel angry, you can learn to start noticing, I'm getting angry. I'm getting angry.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And learn what to do. And part of that is taking a deep breath and saying the Jesus prayer, saying a prayer. The other part is when I do fail, we have a beautiful tradition of getting back up again, trying again.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The Orthodox tradition of sin is beautiful, and I've heard some of your beautiful work on this. Right? It's missing the mark. You know what that means? I failed today, but I'm gonna live to parent another day.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So for parents, we take it seriously, and we take responsibility for it, But there's not this psychological pressure that you may not get angry. Wow. The scriptures are clear. In your anger, do not sin.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So anger in many ways can be trying almost trying to tell us something. Like, maybe there's something that I need to do differently. So I encourage parents, whenever you find yourself getting angry, oftentimes parents are like, are lenient, lenient, lenient, don't know what to do, and then they get angry.
Michelle Moujaes:Flip out. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And then you know what? They're really strict, And that strict is actually good and appropriate. So one of the things we can learn in parenting is how to be that strict before you get angry. Because the church understands anger is actually a power of the soul that God gives us. And as a parent, I know sometimes you need to have that strength of anger to be strict rather than to react and attack your kids.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:That is a good learning, and that's what I would suggest.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Okay. One more. Andrew wrote in who has four kiddos and says, what are good tools or ideas for consequences or discipline? I mean, I guess that would
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:be general?
Michelle Moujaes:Just in general. May like, how do come up with the plan?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I would say, Andrew, why are you looking for consequences? Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Tell me more.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because I that's one of the most common calls I receive. My child has done this. My child has done this. My child does this. Listen.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I've taken everything away from them. I've punished them in any way There's
Michelle Moujaes:nothing left.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:There's nothing left. And so I asked them something like, well, do you know why your child's misbehaving? I've never thought of that.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:The temptation as parents is to think I need to stop the behavior. Doctor Mamalakis, give me some consequences so my child will never do that again.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And my gentle answer is those two boys by the window, they are gonna do it again. We just, over time we wanna have a strategy such that those boys learn over time self control. Our goal is not to stop a six year old from making a mistake. Our goal is that we have a 26 year old. Or let's say, an 18 year old when they go away to college, they have a sense that I am valued.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I know my identity. I'm connected to this life in Christ in the church. That's really tempting. I've learned that that's a dead end. I wanna do what's right and true.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Teaching them self control. Consequences are not the best strategy, and they are certainly not the first strategy Fair. To teach self control over time.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. I love it. Alright. Well, before we wrap up this episode together, tell us what you told those boys.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:So I go over these two boys. And remember, they don't know me. So I walk over there almost as quickly as I could because they were they were getting ready.
Michelle Moujaes:They're like, it's happening.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And the other thing I didn't want is I didn't want another parent, maybe their mom, to see them because she would probably immediately freak out. Because, know, when it's our kids
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yeah. It's way tougher. So I felt like I'm on this mom's side. Let me get there. So I kinda walked over, and I said, hi, guys.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And they froze. They looked at me and said, what you got there? And they're like, rocks. And then I said, do we throw rocks at windows? I just asked them.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You just you're kinda inviting them to think.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Because long term, Michelle, we want our young men to develop a habit. When they have a thought, we want them to develop a habit of thinking for a moment. Is this a good idea?
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. That's great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:How are they gonna develop that habit if we don't ask them to think through the hundreds of times
Michelle Moujaes:Love it.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Their brain stops working. I was smiling because I don't think this is a problem. I think they're they are delightful. This is delightful. There was a sense of urgency, but it's not really an emergency.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:K. They had the best answer. The four year old says, no. We don't throw rocks. The second two year old says, yes.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:We are actually about to throw rocks in a window. And I looked. I tried to keep a little bit of a serious face. I was laughing on the inside. And then I asked him, sort of like what you hinted, I said, do we throw rocks or do we throw balls?
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I asked him another thinking question, and they said balls. I said, yes. We do not throw rocks, but we can throw a ball. And I just stood there. And the implication is I'm not going anywhere.
Michelle Moujaes:Right.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:And I'm not gonna let this happen.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:They were kinda busted. But you see how it was really it was kinda strict. I was I wasn't going anywhere. I wasn't giving him a suggestion to consider. I was actually giving him a directive.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:You're not throwing those rocks.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Great.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:But you see how you do it. You do it with a relationship. You do it with a kind of, I respect you, and I kinda delight in kind of how you're thinking. Under no circumstances are those rocks leaving
Michelle Moujaes:your hand. Perfect.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Right? And so they just looked at me, dropped the rocks, and ran off.
Michelle Moujaes:Went to find a ball.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Went find
Michelle Moujaes:a ball.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:I said, you go to your mother. And it was kinda beautiful. Yeah. Now is that are they never gonna throw a rock in a window? No.
Michelle Moujaes:They will.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:What they need is good supervision.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. Yes. Okay. I love it. Well, this was fun.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you for being with us.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:It's great to be here. Thank you for your beautiful ministry here.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you. We are, certainly thankful for all the work that you do. I really do wish, this is like the ten year anniversary of this book.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Yes. It's coming up on ten years.
Michelle Moujaes:Ten years. A little bit later than my kids needed. I wish it was ten years before that. I
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:that too, but they're gonna have their own kids.
Michelle Moujaes:They do. Yes. That's right. Thank god for the grandkids. Alright.
Michelle Moujaes:Well, you keep doing your great work, and god willing, we will see you again in another episode.
Dr. Philip Mamalakis:Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Moujaes:And thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting. You know, every week, we're here to help you raise children who know Christ, who love him, and spend their whole lives trying to be like him. And hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you consider doing us a favor? Consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend, and here's why.
Michelle Moujaes:When you do that, it helps more families like yours find the show. And one last thing, if you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes, or you can go to faithtree.org/parenting. This guide is a free gift to you and your family, and it's just a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about what we've talked about today. You can go through the questions with your spouse, your friends, with a godparent, or your community at church. Check it out, and we will see you next time.