The Counter-Narrative Show | Black Middle-Class and Educational Attainment

Omari Jackson discusses the importance of focusing on the black middle class in educational attainment. He highlights the lack of programs for middle-class black children, despite their financial stability. Jackson emphasizes the need for better support and resources for middle-class students, noting that many lack social and cultural capital. He also addresses the stigma around proprietary institutions and the importance of saving for college. Jackson advocates for more minority faculty in predominantly white institutions to provide better guidance and support. He stresses the significance of financial planning and community connections for educational success.

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The purpose of the show is to provide a critical examination of society and culture through the intersectional lens of race, gender, and class, more specifically it seeks to provide a COUNTER-NARRATIVE. The Show encourages a reflective assessment and critique of unique standpoints and their potential contribution to popular discourse.

Rasheem, Hello and welcome. This is Rasheem with the counter narrative tonight. The topic is black middle class and educational attainment. We are talking with Omari Jackson. He is our expert tonight, and he is going to be sharing all of his good information on black middle class and educational attainment. Thank you so much for joining us. Amari, I really appreciate this. Thank you for having me. I'm excited about it so so that we could get to know a little bit about you. Can you tell us what is your passion? What is your relationship to this particular and also, what is your relationship to this particular topic? Yeah,
so I'm really passionate about improving the life chances of black children overall, and sort of within, you know, sort of that big population of black people. I'm most passionate about the black middle class. And I think I tend to be more passionate about the black middle class, because I grew up as a black middle class child in the inner city. And a lot of times, what I notice is that, well, I kind of notice this formally and informally, but there aren't a lot of programs that are oriented toward enhancement of black middle class children. Oftentimes people or programs are oriented toward poor children. So, you know, if you are, you know, poor, lots of scholarships, grants out there. You know, if you're poor, lots of, you know, pre college programs and things like that. Oftentimes when people are labeled as middle class, people see them as advantage and not in need of help. And that just wasn't what I was seeing growing up, as I said, I grew up in the inner city, Detroit, Michigan, and even though my parents were what I would consider to be middle class, they were what I would consider to be lower middle class. So, you know, we came from a decent level of money. My father worked in the automobile industry, and my mother worked at a hospital. And so, you know, money wasn't a problem ever, but the social and cultural resources that come along with, you know, like, blue collar work isn't really, you know, isn't that high. So what I saw is a lot of children who grew up like me, financially privileged, but not necessarily privileged in terms of social and cultural resources. So a lot of them didn't go on to college, even though their parents made the kind of money that a lot of parents who have college educations made. But because their children had those social and cultural resources, their children were much more likely to go on to college. So that's how I became passionate about looking at the black middle class and education patterns.
So you mentioned, one of the things that kind of got you started down this direction is that there's so many programs for, I guess, people of lower class or students or children who are in poverty, right? Why should, why should we be focusing on, or why should we even care on focusing on middle class as it relates to education. Why should we focus on the class of it at all? Right?
You know, the middle class really is the most populous class among American citizens. So oftentimes, people think that the majority of black people are poor, when that's actually not true. The majority of black people tend to fall in the middle class. Now there's, you know, big brain. So you could have someone in the middle class who, you know, might be a sanitation employee, and you can have someone who is a physician, you know, that's in the middle class. So it definitely is a broad group, but because it is such a large group, it's one of those things that you know, when people say that the poor need help, they do wrong. I'm not trying to argue that they don't. I'd be a fool to say they don't, but that's a small population of blacks that are poor.
Okay, so middle class is like one of those terms that a lot of us talk about. We're not really sure exactly, at what point do a person, does a person become middle class with poverty? We have things and programs that give mean tests to let us know below this amount, this amount of people in a home is in poverty. What is the definition? What is your working definition for what middle class is,
you're exactly right. The middle class is really muddy. There aren't really any clear definitions of what it is to be middle class. But most of the definitions are not specific to simply money, you know. So in other words, most definitions that researchers use for middle class, they're using money and some other variables. Normally. Those other variables are definitely, as I said, money, and in addition to money, will be education and occupation and those we matter in in like determining whether or not a person is middle class, because a person can make a lot of money. But as I was saying. For, and I'd have a lot of social cultural resources. I mean, quite frankly, you could be a drug dealer. You know, it makes $75,000 a year, and that's a ton of money. But do you know the right schools to put your child into? Or do you know the things that your child should be doing during his or her summer break? Or, you know, do you know how to navigate the, you know, collegiate system and things like that. So you could have someone who makes less money, but because that person maybe is like a teacher, you know, and also has a college education, that person is better with the social and cultural or, I should say, has greater social and cultural resources to offer to their child, so that even though they're making less money, your child oftentimes will fare better than the person who's simply just making a lot of
money. Now, Amari bring up a really good point in terms of how we define class and even how we define different types of currency, right? So you can have social capital, and that would come with knowing what, what, what school to put your child in, or what networks you're connected to, and that has has a way of helping you to navigate. So that's actually a really good point. One of the things that I've heard of is that the GI Bill was particularly significant in creating America's middle class. What would you say were some of the greatest contributors creating the black middle class? Because, you know, as the people who came here in 1619, as slaves for someone, what was the thing that created? Or what are the contributors to creating black middle class in America, right?
I really think a lot of a lot of blacks that were willing to leave the Jim Crow South to perform manual labor jobs, usually when the great migration is spoken of, is spoken of as blacks moving from the rural south to either the west coast, the Midwest or either the Northeast and the Northeast is, you know, largely New York and New Jersey, those areas, but definitely a few other areas. But those are kind of like the two biggest pockets so and it didn't really, you know, you didn't have to have a certain skill level. Your people who thrived in blue blue collar jobs or manual labor jobs for years, definitely some who may have had, you know, very low reading levels, moderate reading levels and things like that. I think it was largely based upon the willingness of a person to leave, and that willingness may have been based on, you know, that person having, you know, to take care of family. You know, some people didn't leave the South because maybe they had to take care of parents, or, you know, children or something like that. But for those who were able to step out, they were able to be quite upwardly mobile, and I think that that was kind of like the first time blacks kind of objectively became middle class. Now, again, I want to remind us that that middle class was lower middle class, right? Because you didn't have the social and cultural resources that came from, you know, going to college and performing, you know, a high powered job. But still, nonetheless, those people have financial capital, and financial capital definitely opens up a world of opportunities. You know, with financial capital, you can buy a home, you can, you know, send your children to the right schools. You know, you you pay taxes, and when you pay taxes, you know that gives you some kind of voice, agency and things like that. So with blacks moving from the rural south, I think that was the first time that they became objectively middle class. Before that, their middle class status was largely subjective in that it was meaningful to the black community. But once you stepped out of the black community, you weren't really considered to be middle class at all. And oftentimes that middle class that was based on, maybe if you held, you know, leadership position in the church, or, you know, say, for instance, if you were, like an activist in your town, or, you know, anything like that, where, like, you help people, you gain kind of, like, social respect. But you didn't necessarily have like, tangible, you know, resources, or material resources. So I think that that was kind of the first creation of, like the lower middle class for blacks. And then I think that the civil rights movement created the opportunity for blacks to be a part of the upper black middle class. And the Civil Rights Movement enabled blacks to become part of the upper black middle class, because it gave them, you know, if it was scholarships to college, if it was pre college programs, you know, those kinds of things that enabled them to go on and get the more high powered positions that required a college degree.
So you mentioned, one of the things I just heard you mentioned was the scholarships and educational things that people were able to now access education in a way that they weren't able to access it. And I've talked to quite a few people, mostly this, well, I shouldn't say quite a few, a few white males, who just, you know, they tell me they're impressed. They have a very strong impression. Question that black people do not value education, and one of the things that they use as their examples are, look at the look at the dropout rates. Look at how low, you know, there's a low degree of them getting black people, African Americans, getting degrees. These people do not really value education. What's your response to that? Right?
Yeah, that that, that sentiment bothers me, and it bothers me because it is such a simplistic, you know, answer. It's just kind of like, oh, well, people are poor because they're lazy, you know what I mean. And, and anybody who thinks about the social world knows that nothing is that straightforward. There's never like a cause to you know anything you know I teach sociology, and I always tell my students like there's no cause and effect relationship between smoking and developing cancer. There are people who you know smoke their entire lives and they never develop cancer, and they're people who you know develop cancer have never smoked cigarettes in their lives. So that's a very simplistic way to think. So, as you said, I do think that oftentimes people think that black people don't value education, and it really is not they don't value it. It's oftentimes they don't have the tools or resources to access education in the same capacity as whites. And I don't want to even say all whites, right, because there's definitely a lot of a lot of white rural poverty. I think that sometimes we think that, you know, all whites, you know, have it good in terms of, you know, education, money, social, respect, that kind of thing. But there's a lot of white world poverty. And I think if you went into, you know, a white impoverished area, you find the same levels of, you know, high school dropouts and you know, teenage pregnancies and drug use and, you know, like those kinds of things. So blacks do value education. In fact, my research looks at the gap between aspirations and attainment in terms of college, you know, aspirations to go to college and whether or not students actually attend college. And I can tell you for sure, the vast majority of blacks, you know, well over 85% probably even well over 90% aspire to go to college. Now, what happens is, you can have someone who aspires to go to college, but may say, or, I'm sorry, aspires to become a physician, but may say, you know, I want to go to community college and get, you know, an Associate's degree. And that person kind of there is a disconnect between that person's aspirations and knowing what it takes to actually meet that aspiration. Or you might have you know, a high school student might be a senior in high school planning to go to college, but hasn't taken the AC T or the SAT. So it's not that they don't want to go to college. They see college is something that is is good, something that is needed, but they oftentimes don't have the tools and the resources to know about navigating that pre college structure. And oftentimes, even if they get into college, they oftentimes they'll have the tools or resources to navigate the collegiate structure.
No, I think that's a that's absolutely a really good point to mention, because oftentimes we tend to make correlation, causation, right?
Exactly, yeah, that is the but, again, that's the simplistic way. You know, in teaching sociology, I always try to get people to step outside of kind of like whatever seems easiest to you. And it seems like, oh, you know, I got it. This is the answer you should you should question that. You know, if it sounds too easy, if it sounds too directed, it probably is too simple. Yeah.
So what can you tell us about the history of education in this country, in the work that you've done, and even more specifically, what can you tell us about the history of education as it relates to people of color?
Yeah, so I think that we know. So I specialize largely in blacks, but definitely understand like education patterns and things like that for other people that kind of fit in between what we refer to that as the racial middle, you know, so the racial middle would be anybody, like Hispanics, Latinos, Native Americans and, you know, Asian Pacific Islanders, because we oftentimes,
really is, because I have sort of A narrow focus and I can better understand something. And I know definitely with with black people, right? I mean, it's well known that formally we couldn't go to school during slavery, but even after the abolition of slavery, when we could formally go to school, and I should say, like, you know, in quotes, the formally go to school. Oftentimes, there were other social forces that inhibited us when, you know, going to school, so that was, you know, family responsibilities, or I should say, family economic right. I need to tie those two social institutions together, because, you know, you might have a certain economic situation within your family when you have to work, as opposed to going to. School. You know, I use the instance of my mother, who grew up in rural Mississippi, and she's the she has a total of eight siblings. That's her and eight siblings. She has one older brother, but the other seven siblings are younger than her, but as the oldest daughter, like it was her responsibility to take care of the family. So, you know, she could go to school when the weather was bad outside and she couldn't be working outside. Additionally, when, you know, she didn't have any work to be doing at home with children, so she wasn't able to go to school like Monday through Friday, even though, formally, black people were able to go to school, if that makes sense. And my mom's not that old. I mean, she's 66 right? So I think that oftentimes when we think of, you know, Jim Crow south, we think of it as something that's like long ago when it really was not, you know, like people my father never went to school with, with white children. He grew up in Louisiana, and he grew up in a small town. I wouldn't refer to it as rural, but still, he didn't go to school with white people. And again, that's someone who is alive that can tell you that you know they live through segregation. So I would say that even though you know, once the you know, slavery was abolished, that didn't make you know even playing field at all, and I think that you still, unfortunately see some of those instances today where you know, children aren't able to go to school because they're busy taking care of a household. So I just think that, you know, the history of education with blacks is definitely actually important as people think. I think people were like, well, what you know now you can go to school. Why don't you?
Right? So thank you everyone for who is currently watching. If you just tuned in, this is the counter narrative. Tonight's topic is black, middle class and educational attainment. We are talking with Amari Jackson on this topic. One of the things that I feel like that you were mentioning right just now, that just comes to my mind is the significance and the benefit of generational education, because, similar to your mother, my grandmother, she dropped out of school in the third grade. Her mother clean houses so you don't have a person who you know didn't even make it through elementary and then she still has a family. She's becoming a mother, as opposed to generational access to not only just K through 12 education, let alone anything in higher education about so I think that that has definitely an impact, and we have those social and cultural influences. And I was surprised myself when I even realized that, you know, it's actually possible for me to go to college. That was like, I like, what you know, was for people with money, or it was for white people, but it wasn't like, you know, I didn't have those generational examples. I don't know what your experience was with television, but I remember different world exactly. I knew you were going to say it. Tell me about the significance of the diff of different worlds, and even if it had a personal impact on you, I'd like to hear about that
it did, you know, a different world as well as you know the Cosby Show. So a different world definitely was one of those things where, I think it, it made college kind of like within reach for people, like, even if it wasn't within reach, obviously, because, you know, like, looking at something on the TV doesn't necessarily mean you can afford it, but I just mean within, like your your dreams and aspirations like it made it within reach. You know, there were people who came from, you know, all, all backgrounds on a different world. You know, you had some people who came from backgrounds where, you know, the parent was a judge. You know, Whitley's father was a judge, Kim's father was a police officer. What was the quirky one? Ready? Yeah, buddy, you know, I think Fred, you know, had parents that were, you know, kind of just very free and kind of hippie, you know, whatever. But it was just kind of like, no matter which walk of life you came from, that you could go to college, you know what? I mean, it wasn't like, it was one of those things where you had to be from, like, the highest socioeconomic stratum to attend college. And you could be from there, but you could also be from kind of like the person whose parent, you know, doesn't have, you know, a job, or, you know, is a little spacey, or, you know, like that kind of thing. So it may college little another thing, the Cosby Show. The Cosby Show always made me feel like that family existed. You know, I think a lot of times the Cosby Show was criticized for being something that didn't exist. You know, like a black attorney and a black physician, when, quite often, when you see, you know, a black physician, that that person probably is married to another professional. So while it's. Not very numerous. It still exists. And for the people who can relate to that, I think it's important. I don't think that things have to always be like, oh, you know, this is an example of 85% of the black population. Because, again, it's all about set and aspirations. Another big thing that has continued to, you know, remain with me, is how Bill Cosby would always wear the college T shirts. So I think, yeah, when I was in college, I started collecting college T shirts. So every, you know, city that I went to, I always found, you know, a couple of colleges there and pick up shirts. So now I can't remember how many I have, but I probably have at least 30 shirts. And it all started from that. It was one of those things where, like, education became a cool thing, you know what? I mean, like, it became something that, yeah, it was just cool and desirable.
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I liked about that is, not only did it make higher education a more real, seem more realistic and attainable for myself and others from my neighborhood, I actually got to see a peek into an HBCU for people who may not know historically black college or university, and it didn't feel like an alienating place. It felt like a place that I could actually go live, be and thrive, and later I went to and I'm currently at an HBCU, so I have a question for you about HBCU. Some people argue that some of the issues, some of the circumstances that actually created and founded HBCUs, are issues that we no longer deal with. So we don't need HBCUs anymore. Like, what do you feel like is the legitimacy of us having HBCUs, right?
You know what's interesting? I feel like in America, we made a lot of progress, and then I feel like some of that progress has since been I guess we've gone kind of backwards. You know what I mean, like, we've progressed in some instances. So you and I both know that HBCUs were originally created because blacks formally couldn't attend predominantly white institutions, so that now we can formally attend, I think that that's probably a thing that you'll hear, you know, throughout this interview that I talk a lot about, like, kind of like, formal versus informal. But, you know, formally we can attend, but I'm white institutions these days, but oftentimes those places are still uncomfortable spaces. So, you know, who wants to go somewhere where it's like, oh yeah, you can go here, but your quality of life is not gonna be good, you know, like, we're not gonna treat you right, or we're not going to, you know, give you the resources that you need to feel comfortable. And I feel like HBCUs automatically do that. Like HBCUs automatically provide a space for black students to feel comfortable. I feel like HBCUs give students a different slant on life. We teach black students to see themselves through our lens, as opposed, you know, as opposed to the dominant white American lens, you know. So we might talk about a challenge going on in the black community. We might say like, you know, hey, you know, 35% of the people in this neighborhood are in poverty. But we're not going to just leave it at that to make people think that, Oh, they're in poverty because they're lazy. We're going to look at the reasons why they are impoverished. We're going to look at historical things that kind of set those, those people back, you know, if it is, you know, government programs that, you know, said, Hey, we'll, we'll give you, you know, government assistance if there is no man in the house. So then, you know, men had to leave the house in order for women to get governmental assistance. So that was kind of like a and even before that, if we go back to, you know, slavery, you know, that was the way to weaken the family, to take the man away from the family, right? And then after the abolition of slavery, it's like, we'll help you, but we'll help you if he gets out. And now we created this culture where there are probably black men who feel like you know, if they create a child, that it's not necessarily their responsibility. But again, it's not because they want to be irresponsible. It's because they've been taught that that's the woman's job. And again, that's the government teaching us that, why can't a woman, or why can't a family get welfare assistance with two parents being in the household? So I just think that that's the story, that oftentimes, at a predominantly white institution, they're not going to tell you, they're going to just tell you, Oh, 35% of these people are poor. They're a ton of, you know, single parent households, and they're going to give you the reason why, or the role that dominant white America has played in that. So we really teach students to, you know, to respect their past. That's another thing I think, that oftentimes, you know, in dominant white America, we want people to get over things. So it's like, you know what? Forget about that, right? So we don't necessarily want students to live in their past, but we definitely want them to understand where they've come from, and knowing where they come from they can understand, you know, how people have fought for them to be where they are. But then we also teach black students to go back out. Into their communities and to help their communities, as opposed to allowing, again, dominant white America to come in and do it for you. Because, don't get me wrong, I do feel like America owes black people a lot. I feel like America, you know, you know, they owe us the opportunity to, you know, have, you know, as as many educational opportunities as whites. But at the same time, I don't think that as blacks, we can sit around and wait for them to do that, if that makes sense, because as long as we sit around and wait for them to do that, we're going to always be at their mercy. And race relations these days are pretty rough. So, you know, while, I think while, at one time, I think that people could have easily said, Well, you know, I'll go to, you know, white school, you know, it's cheaper, or never. Some black schools might be more expensive these days, but again, they're going to give you the greater support, right, that you're probably not going to get at that, at that, at that predominantly white institution.
Well, also, I think you brought up a good point in terms of the significance of knowing thyself. And then I think one of the things that HBCUs tend to take on is this role that we're not just educating you to give you a degree. We're educating you so that you could go out and do work and make things better. You know, kind of like this race work or the this uplifting work. I know a lot of your work focuses around attainment and achievement gaps. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the trends that you're seeing with that and actually, before you do, I want to say hello to everyone who is joining us now. If you are here watching live, feel free to type a question into the chat box on the right. And if you're watching a replay, feel free to subscribe or share. So tell us a little bit about the trends that you're seeing in education, attainment, achievement gaps and a little bit around the research and work that you're doing, yeah,
so I don't know. I kind of feel like I might ruffle feathers with this one. So, yeah, that's why I say, you know, like sociologists, we're supposed to piss people off. So I don't know. You know, one trend that do see. And in a minute, I want to ask you to restate the question too, because there's a part of it I didn't catch. I see a lot of blacks attending proprietary institutions, and there's a lot of stigma associated with proprietary institutions. And just in my experience, and again, this is my anecdotal experience, so I don't, I don't claim to, you know, having a research data on this at all. But in my experience, the degrees are just not respected the same way that, you know, they are. The student obtain their degrees from brick and mortars. And I welcome people to disagree with me. I don't know if you please let me know if you have people that want to chime in and say they disagree with me. I really
for people who are listening. Could you please explain to them proprietary institutions and how that plays out? So one getting more cachet than the other, so to speak,
can you repeat the last part, getting more what? Oh, cache or like, yeah, you know, so proprietary institutions are institutions that are for profit. They are owned by, you know, a person or a company, sort of private corporate corporations. And while everything I think these days is capitalistic, I mean, even, you know, not for profit, schools are have a capitalistic side to them. I think that that capitalistic side is slightly less, because there's not a person that is earning all of the money, you know, whereas, with the proprietary institutions like that person is doing whatever he or she can to, you know, to receive as much money as possible. So if that's letting people in who really are not prepared to deal with the rigors of college, if that is letting people in, you know, to take courses that are not really going to go on and, you know, get them a job or a degree that's respected, they really don't. They really don't care, I think standards are much less. And again, that's capitalism, you know. So it's, it's sad that education has become, you know, something that is capitalistic, but just in our society. I mean, most things are even the family, right? Is going to change because of capitalism. So I don't know, did I answer your question? Yeah, no, it did. Oh, and with greater cachet. So exactly as you said, you know, I think that sometimes people think that, you know, all degrees are created equal. So they may say, like, you know, I have a bachelor's, or I have, you know, Master's doctorate, or whatever, um, and they'll say a doctorate is a doctorate. And that really is not my experience. This is my ninth year in hiring, oh, my ninth year teaching, you know, full time as a faculty member. But I've been in higher ed, you know that? And to hear the people who make the, you know, decisions about employees, even people who, you know, applications, they're looking at the degrees are not the same. They're received very differently. And I think that sometimes people will say, Well, you know, like, you can go to like, say, for instance, I went to Wayne State University in Detroit for graduate students and Wayne State sociology isn't like a top sociology program. It's nowhere near what like a Michigan is in terms of a University of Michigan, in terms of, you know, I guess, you know, prestige or anything like that. However, you know, it's still a school that is respected, you know, like cop professors, there have connections with other professors and things like that. So there's community. Is one of those things where if someone wants to find out if I'm legit, they can call on my professors and find out like, oh, you know, do you have Omari in class? Oftentimes, with proprietary institutions. Is not the same way, you know, when you you might have professors who don't have the, you know, highest credentials, or either, if they do have, you know, the highest credentials, again, their degree might be from a proprietary institution, and their network is, you know, much smaller. So, you know, I mean, it is. It's a very different ballpark.
People disagree. No, could you tell people more about, and I can tell you that I didn't even really learn about this hierarchy of doctorate degrees until maybe like three or four years ago, between Edd and dsws and talk. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah,
so you know, I don't have any strong bias against the EDD, I do know people who do have biases, you know, and they'll say like, oh, the PhD is, you know, better than the I don't think the PhD is better than Ed back. I think that they are slightly different degrees. I think one is focused more toward practitioners, the other is focused more toward research, but in the same vein, I know there are some people who get the EDD, and they still go on to fantastic schools to teach, to conduct research and things like that. So I don't see a whole lot of difference between those.
And I'd like to talk to you a little bit more too about tying those, uh, connections. And if you see some connections between educational attainment and income and employment, are you seeing correlations there?
Yeah, you know, what? Can you um table that question for just one second while I go back also, I don't think that I connected by what you were asking me before. I apologize, but the trend that I see with the whole proprietary institutions is that, unfortunately, there's a disproportionate number of minorities that attend proprietary institutions. So you will see a much higher number of women, you'll see a much higher number of older people. You'll see a much higher number of blacks and Hispanics. You know, a lot of non traditional folks. Now, I'm not suggesting that that makes it bad, but what I am saying is, is there some reason why higher socioeconomic folks don't go to proprietary institutions, you know? I mean, and there probably is. So I think that that's a trend sometimes in sort of minority communities where people are saying, like, hey, I need to go to college, and they're just going to, you know, whatever college sounds like, it's okay. And I do think that the admissions and, you know, administrators at proprietary institutions are feeding minority populations and communities the story that, you know, this degree or this school can change your life. And oftentimes it in my anecdotal experience, it doesn't, you know, and my anecdotal experience is matching up with the recent closure of, you know, quite a few proprietary institutions. So, yeah, okay, I'm sorry you asked a question about educational attainment and the correlation. Yeah,
are you saying? So one of the things that I'm hearing is when you add on, when you add on the complexities of identity and particular identities that come with certain power, privilege and access, then degrees don't translate the same when you add on gender, when you add on race, is one of the things that I'm hearing from people and what you've studied, looked at, heard read, are you seeing positive correlations between higher degree attainment, middle class attainment, more money, You know, better quality of life, all of these things,
right? So overall, I'll say that the data show that education is the equalizer you know, the Greek equalizer, you know, despite a person's race, despite a person's you know, gender, despite a person you know. You. So education really does help equalize. I'm not gonna say it totally equalizes things, right? And there definitely are still income gaps, wage gaps between, you know, like minorities and whites, between men and women, but you know, that kind of thing, there definitely are wage gaps. But overall, most folks attending college and graduating from college will have a decent shot at, you know, becoming, you know, very solid middle class, even if they're not what they were referred to as upper middle class in terms of income, they oftentimes are much better off than, like, lower middle class or working class. I will say that I think that the challenge that first generation college students have while they're in college, it I do think it follows them after college, you know, I don't think you lose it. I don't think it's like you graduate and you say, Oh, I'm no longer a first generation college student, you know, I'm a very different person. For instance, you know, I'm a professor, and I think I just shared with you that, you know, this is my ninth year teaching full time at the college level, and there's still things about academia in the workplace that I just still don't get because my parents didn't go to college and I wasn't really raised in a fashion that's kind of congruent with academia, if that makes sense. So a case in point would be in my family like you don't talk about accomplishments. So I would not sit down, you know, with my brother and my sister, my parents, you know, at the dinner table and talk about, oh, you know this article I wrote, or oh, you know this interview I have. I think my mom might be watching now, I use, hey mom, hey dad, you know, so shout out to them, though. I will say that, you know, I told him tonight, or I told him about tonight, but I normally don't talk to them about the things that I'm doing at work, if it's an award that I won, or a paper that I publish, or that kind of thing. And it's just because in our community, we're always taught them like you're not supposed to, you know, to toot your own horn. But as a professor, and I'm sure, you know, in academia, like professors are notorious for, you know, telling you who they are, what they've done, what they're great at. And at times, to me, it still seems very braggadocious. But then there are other times when I'm like, okay, you know, it is not braggadocious. That person is really just being real. That person is saying, like, you know, I am good at teaching, or I'm good at this research, and I think that's what we all have to do to sell ourselves. And I think that oftentimes when you are a first generation you know college student, you don't really feel comfortable to your own horn, but that could mean that you might not get the job that you want because you haven't marketed yourself properly. I think sometimes even you know, I remember at a previous job of mine, one of my one of my chairs. Told me, Omar, you're too honest, you know, right? You know, sometimes you just say things that even though it's true, you know, I would probably just keep to myself, or, you know, whatever. And I guess I just, you know, I come from a family where people are just straight shooters, you know what I mean, like, if, if they feel that you're saying something that's nonsensical, like, they'll call you on your door. You know, if they disagree with something, again, they will, you know, feeling and disagree with you. You know, if they drop the ball or something, they'll say, Hey, I dropped the ball. So I would then carry that into academia. And sometimes people would be like, alright, you know, you don't have to be that honest. You know, people don't, you know, they might say you're too aggressive, or something like that. And again, coming from, you know, being a black person in the inner city, but then also coming from, you know, working class parents, I think that that's just, that's the culture. I wouldn't say it's too aggressive. It's just a different culture. So it's kind of like learning how to scale back at times, but not lose oneself is a real challenge, you know. So I think that that disadvantage that you have of being a first generation college student, you know, carries on into, you know, the post collegiate proceeds. Another thing I would say is that a lot of times, first generation college students don't have guidance on how to navigate college. And college really is a bureaucracy, right? Like any other bureaucracy, you really have to know the structure and what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do. So you know, in the past, like probably with our parents generation, you could go to college and you can major in whatever, come out and get a fantastic job. It's not like that anymore. We have to be much more intentional about the work that we do in college, which will lead us to some post collegiate pursuit, if that's a job, if that is, you know, career, if that is graduate school, whatever it might be. So you have to really be intentional about the classes you take, the clubs you join, the internships that you do, and, you know, and it's important to do internships, because when you get out these days, the economy is much more competitive in terms of getting jobs. So if two people have a degree, who's the one you know? Who do you choose? If you choose the person that did the internship or the person who just simply has a degree? And I went to a pretty I think I told you, I didn't go to what I would refer to as like a top school in terms of sociology, for graduate school, but for undergrad, I did go to what I will refer to as a top school. I went to University of Michigan. Michigan, they haven't gone to University of Michigan like I can think of classmates that I went to school with that feel like Michigan was a total waste of time and money for them because it didn't shake out how they expected. So, you know, oftentimes it's that they're underemployed, you know, maybe they, you know, have a job that pays a decent amount, but it's not the job that it doesn't pay as much they expected. Again, this, you know, this, quote, unquote, Michigan degree. And again, I think that goes back to someone not helping them navigate the structure so that they could get the biggest bang out of the, you know, out of the Michigan degree.
Well, one of the things you mentioned to Omari is about being a first generation college student, and I think that that definitely has an impact on how students might navigate that space. Can you speak a little bit to the type of mentorship or guidance that a person might need at a PWI or at an HBCU navigating and what does that what should they be getting out of that relationship? How do they find a mentor? How to even cultivate that? Because I think some students might say, I want a mentor. I don't know how to to find a mentor. And then, if they're at a PWI, and let's say if they want to necessarily get someone that looks looks like them, that person may not be available, or that person can't be the sole mentor for all the black kids on campus. So can you talk a little bit about the significance of and how to establish successful mentoring relationships to help first generation college students navigate that and be successful? Yeah,
it is really incumbent upon pwis to do a better job at hiring minority faculty. But even addition to minority faculty, hiring a lot of minority staff, and not just like the staff that is, and I don't want you all to think I'm knocking, you know, admissions officers or financial aid officers and things like that. Those are great jobs. Those are jobs that are very well needed. But I think what happens is you'll see a decent number of minorities in those quote, unquote, lower level positions, or the entry level positions, and then as you go farther up in administration, you start to see fewer, you know, black so you blacks, Hispanics, Asians. So you know, you'll see fewer, like directors or deans or, you know, like that kind of thing. And I really feel like when you have someone that is a dean a director, that person has disciplines, and that person has greater power to put resources in play. That person oftentimes has a budget where he or she can make decisions about what we're going to spend money. So until colleges do that, I think they really are going to struggle with their minority students. Yeah, and then when you ask the question about how to get a mentor? I think that people should really just come out and ask. I mean, it's difficult, but it's one of those things that, like, it's worth the challenge. There's a chance you might get a faculty member who may say, Hey, I'm really too busy. Faculty members are notorious for during their pre tenure years working and not really accepting a ton of additional stuff. And it's not personal that minority faculty members don't accept the extra stuff. It really is just one of those things where they're like, I have to get tenure, because if you don't get tenured, you get fired, right? So a lot of people will say, like, wait until I get tenure. Get out of that. I can be supportive. So to the student, that seems off putting, but to the professor, is just kind of what he or she has to do additionally before tenure professors have to worry about the whole, you know, political game. You know, if I speak out or if I seem like too much of an activist, you know, you know what that place target on my back? You know, when people look to get rid of me in my probationary period or that kind of thing. So it just really is a political game. But again, that's the reason why I charge predominantly white institutions to get more minority faculty members give them the support so that they can get to tenure and to express what you know, what, what professors hope to do with tenure. To, you know, have freedom of, you know, speech or, you know, freedom to to, you know, teach things that are controversial, but black educators are really important to higher education, and the work that they the service work they do, oftentimes, is undervalued. Usually, either research or teaching is the most important thing. So if you're at a research institution, research comes first. You're a teaching institution, teaching comes first. Service is never like first. It's so funny because one of my institutions that I was at before I had gone through a substantive review where, you know, colleagues gave me feedback, and someone said, service is actually what you're best at. It was kind of an offensive thing, because. I do think that I'm a strong teacher, and I think that right under being a strong teacher, I do think that I'm a moderately strong researcher, but I did a lot of service, so that person was kind of right. But I just think being a minority faculty member, there are so many opportunities for you to do diversity work. For instance, prior to coming to Morgan State. I was at a rural, a small liberal arts college in rural New England. And my CV, my curriculum, Vita, them. You know, it grew immensely in the three years that I was there. Part of it, I mean, I am a go getter, but the other part of it is that it just really wasn't. There weren't any other faculty members that were doing, like, racial diversity work. So I just had so many opportunities that I was like, the go to person for students, and that was something that I took a chance on doing, because service work can ruin your career if you don't focus enough on teaching and research. So oftentimes, found myself working more than I should have, just because, like, I couldn't let my students down because I saw myself in them
absolutely so I want to take a moment again to say thank you to everyone who's watching. If you are just tuning in, this is the counter narrative. Tonight's topic is black, middle class and educational attainment. We are speaking with Omari Jackson. I want to let you know that there's some people who have said hello. Shanard Campbell is enjoying Robert Gary said, proud of you, bro, interesting. Oh
yeah, that's my elementary and middle school. Homie. K through eight.
He say, hashtag, Detroit, hashtag. Emerson, yes. So one of the questions that I want to want to ask you, Amara too, is, what is it that we need to know about black middle class and educational attainment? It's like, if we don't know anything else, what is something that you really want to make sure
that we walk away with? Yeah, so my biggest thing that I like to talk about is money. You know, it might be kind of tacky, you know, but I just feel like it's something we don't talk enough about in our community. I feel like people get kind of leery when you talk about money, because, you know, they're like, Well, I don't want you to be asking me for nothing. You know what I mean? Like, I want to tell you how much money I make, because you might ask me for something, but I think the fact that we don't talk about money leaves a ton of stuff out in the open that kind of goes unknown or underdeveloped. The biggest thing I want to get across to my fellow middle class folks, and that's even if you know, if you're middle class and you, you know, work as a bus driver, you know, sanitation worker, or if you are an attorney, oftentimes with middle class, middle class income, your child is not going to get financial aid when he or she goes to college, and you are going to be at a disadvantage in comparison to a poor person. Because poor people, oftentimes, you know, as long as they can get into, you know, a decent state school, they're going to get the decent funding middle class families, they're oftentimes going to tell you, like, Oh, you like, oh, you make too much money. Now, what happens is, if you haven't saved then your child is, you know, in between a rock and a hard place. But you know, if you start saving just a little bit of money, you know, when your child is young, and you know, just building each and every year that you can give your child that opportunity to be upwardly mobile. You know, my father is, I kind of hate he's watching this a little bit because I don't want to give him too much of a compliment. But my father really is a bright guy, you know, he, as I told you, labor, you know, at Ford Motor Company for, you know, close to 40 years, and he saved for our college education. You know, we were really young. In fact, my brother and sister went to private school. When I started kindergarten, my father took them out of private school and put them in public school, and then I joined them in public school, and it was all because he wanted to save more money for our college. And he wanted to save money for college because he knew that the job that he got, which was lucrative for his generation, he knew that it wouldn't be around when we became adults. Now, the crazy thing is, you know, like, again, my father, you know, was a high school graduate, you know, went to school, you know, in Louisiana, went to a black school, so I'm sure the education wasn't as strong as it was. And, you know, in white areas and things like that. And if you think about her like, he's talking about high level, you know, social theory that, like the greatest theories, like Karl Marx, you know, was talking about, like he knew that, you know, that the economic switch was going to come, you know. So he was like, I knew my children are going to be able to get jobs that, you know, in the industry, in the automobile industry, so, like, they need to go to college, right? And my father, when it came time for college, like, I was able to choose whichever school I wanted to go to, you know? And then I also, another thing I want to get across to my my fellow middle class folks, is that I hear a lot of people saying, like, well, you know, I'm not going to pay for my child to go to college. Like, they're going to have to work their way through college. You. I think that that sounds good when people say things like, you know, I want to teach my child to be responsible. Yeah, I think there are other ways to teach your child to be responsible. Oftentimes, what happens when children have to pay their way through college is that they end up doing school and work and nothing else. So they're not joining any extracurricular activities. They are not doing any internships. They're not building any real bonds with, you know, employers, or with, you know, advisors and things like that, who can help move them into graduate school or to serve, as you know, references or things like that. So it's like, while you're busy making money, your your quality of education is diminished, you know. So I really, you know, I just really want parents to, I guess, think a little bit more deeply about, you know, ways to make their children responsible and to consider sacrificing to pay some money for their children to attend college. They're growing
that's a good point, because that also impacts their social capital, right? If you can't do anything except for go to school and work, also, I wanted to let you know that Azaria Jackson said, Hello, and she said, we're watching,
that's my Niecy poo.
She said, We're here watching, Uncle, you
better go to college girl.
Um, so you've given us a whole lot. We talked a bit about the history of education for black people. We talked a bit about HBCUs. You tell us a bit about the black middle class and some of the trends that you've seen, that you've seen. You are now, and we're getting to we have eight more minutes, and I want to give opportunity for you to let people know how they can reach out to you and contact you. But before we do that, I want you to for a moment, go back in time young Omari Jackson, who's not a professor, who is freshman year, and he is trying to figure some stuff out. I want you to talk to him for a moment, yeah,
good freshman in college, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, I was a freshman in college at University of Michigan, and felt like I was over my head. I felt like I didn't belong there, even though I had gone to, you know, a strong High School, a strong High School in Detroit in terms of academic rigor is not always, you know, the strongest in comparison to, you know, some suburban areas, but a lot of the things that I kind of downplay I recognize, actually were much more important, right? So even though we may have, and I went to a strong in academic, strong rigor, you know, rigorous school for high school, I went to a magnet school, Cass Tech High School. Hopefully somebody from Cass tech is listening. But anyway, you know, even though our academics may have been slightly under, you know, like a person who had gone to like, an independent, private school, like cast, taught us the grind. So they taught us like, if you know, there were times that even though we were a magnet school, there were times when we didn't have enough books, you know. So we may have had books to use in the classroom, but we couldn't take them home because they weren't enough to spread for everyone. But we learned how to get school early to read the book. We learned how to, you know, make copies, which is completely illegal, you know, we we learned how to just get it done there. I can think of times when I had class when, you know, not everybody had a best but at the same time, like, we still learn, you know. And I look at people who have far more resources than me, but still went to, you know, Michigan, and may have had to, you know, to leave because they want discipline things like that. So I think I will look back and tell myself, like believing yourself and don't diminish the things that you learn. Don't you know? Think that you know the grass is always greener on the on the other side just because you went to an inner city school, I would tell myself to reach out to professors and develop relationships. You know, there were a lot of times at Michigan that I felt so small and insignificant, like I couldn't approach a professor. So while I made a decent number of relationships with people and with some staff members in terms of professors, when it came around to graduate school, there was not one professor I could ask to write me a letter of recommendation. So I would say, definitely reach out to professors and remain connected to the black community. Something that I see this wasn't a challenge for me, but this is something that I've seen working at predominantly white institutions, as a black faculty member, and I have seen, I've seen black students who kind of forsake the black community, and even if you didn't grow up around around black children, like, that's your time to, you know, to learn what it is to be black, and to develop a community. Because I really feel like no one's gonna love you, like the black community. I think that those are kind of the the main things I can think of, what I would advise Omari to do as a. A freshman.
Fantastic. So again, if you are watching, thank you for I see there's still five people on right now. Thank you so much for watching right now, for everyone who is on live and everyone who is watching the replay, this is the counter narrative. Tonight's topic is black, middle class and educational attainment. We were talking with Omari Jackson, and right now he's going to share with us how can we connect with him socially, whether that's Facebook, Twitter, email and all that jazz, maybe if you're interested in checking out some of his articles, publications, presentations, he's gonna let you know how to reach out to him. So let him know. How can they how can they connect with you?
Definitely. So I don't know who said it, but I'm on the faculty at Morgan State University. Ms, you Yep, I got a rep for the folks who pay me, right? You can reach me at my Facebook page. My first name is, you know, Omari Jackson. I'm not that creative. So I have, like, any jazz like Omari, you know, trap star at this, or whatever it was, just this Omari Jackson. And as I said, I'm on the faculty at Morgan State. So if you Google Omari Jackson, Morgan State, you should be able to come up with some stuff from me. I've been on the faculty at COVID Sawyer College in New Hampshire. If you google anything, if you Google Omari Jackson, I mean, I ain't trying to act like I'm a rock star, you know. I mean, I'm not all that, but I'm decently Google above. So if you Google maybe Omari Jackson Morgan State sociology, that'll take you to my faculty page. And on my faculty page, I have my my resume. You click on that and see, you know, some of the work that I've done. I'm always interested in coming and talking to people's, you know, schools, if it's jobs and things like that, I do that kind of work. So, yeah, you can just google me and hit me up. It's [e-mail]
awesome. Do you know if MSU hasn't, if Morgan has a PhD in Sociology,
they don't. We have a master's degree in sociology, though, however, I believe that all things are possible, right? Let me do one of these for anybody out there watching Morgan. Or
at least a social science, just like one in the general social sciences. I haven't seen a school around it has one in the general social sciences. Anywho. Again, this is the counter narrative. This show has been black, middle class and educational attainment. I am Rasheem, please feel free to like this video, share this video, pass it along. You can catch me everywhere at s Rasheem, that's S R, A, S, H, E, M, Omar, you have been fantastic. I gotta have you on again, like, please go talk about thank you again and have a good night. Thank you. Have a good night.
You.