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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I'd like to invite you to
take a moment in your day
to look internal,
to find gratitude
and express a deep sense of
exploration within yourself,
finding center
in a way as you breathe in
and breathe out,
practicing the art of gratitude,
taking an opportunity as you breathe in
and breathe out.
Listening,
watching,
and feeling the magnitude of gratitude.
Breathing in, listening,
and breathing out, observing.
Taking this opportunity within
yourself and for yourself
to rest in gratitude.
What does that look like for you?
Exploring people, exploring experiences,
finding gratitude in this moment.
Breathing in and breathing out,
and as we continue to explore this idea,
I invite you to use your active
imagination and continue to expand your
gratitude practice, be it energetically,
be it for the future,
or even your past.
Finding deep gratitude
for your entire existence.
Once again, finding breath,
breathing in
and breathing out
in this moment, simply paid no
disattention to the word gratitude,
the thought of gratitude,
the emotional state of gratitude,
your physical body relating to gratitude,
and above all else, your
spirit of gratitude.
Breathing in and breathing out,
inviting you now to come back to center,
taking one final breath in,
feeling body, one final breath
out, expressing gratitude,
and opening your eyes
when you feel called.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of
the psychedelic psychologist.
where I invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I am profoundly grateful,
sitting with someone I deeply
respect and honor, having walked
the path with Guy for some time.
Guy, how are you coming
into today's conversation?
I'm doing well excited.
I appreciate your excitement and one
of the things that I do love about
you is your complete transparency and
honesty and also your vulnerability
when knowing that we're going to talk
about psychedelics and we've been with
each other now for almost six months
working through integration and healing.
Has it been that long?
Yeah, it's been, yeah,
close to six months.
Really?
In the psychedelic world, it
feels like a long time and a
short time at the same time.
It started in July, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
And my mathematics is, a little wonky,
so it could be five, it could be seven.
What does it mean to be
on this path right now?
This healing journey?
I guess it means everything to me.
I think I'm happier than I've ever been.
It just has really, really
made a difference in my life.
And all the things, wondering, I always
said one, like right now I'm like,
I feel like I'm a late bloomer, but
really it's just things were in the way.
And then just this treatment really
opened things up and now it's like, I'm
a late bloomer, but maybe, so I just
questioned why am I a late bloomer?
And it's because, I didn't
have these resources.
Thank you for that.
And compliment you before we
get any further, there's no
late bloomer, early bloomer.
And if we look at the bigger picture
of our entire existence, one of
the things I'm humbled about you
is you accepted the invitation.
You've done your due diligence.
and walk with it with effort and devotion.
And I respect everything that you're
saying because there has been things that
have been in both my way in my life and
your way in your life in order for us
not to be able to use these medicines.
What guy drew you to the psychedelic
medicines and how did you come to it?
Well, I've been I, I first tried to I
started to have difficulties with drinking
in 2019 and now I've, at this point,
I'm almost at nine months of sobriety.
But prior to this, I was struggling
to get extended periods of sobriety.
So anyways when I lived, I lived in
Arizona about two, two years ago,
and I was, I was living at a sober.
House and one of my roommates there was
a Marine scout sniper really interesting
guy really super nice, intelligent guy.
And we we bonded over golf.
He was a big golfer.
And so he was impressed with.
Cause I've been playing my whole life.
So he was impressed with,
with playing golf with me.
So we'd love to doing that together.
And then we formed a friendship.
But he called me after I moved
back to Minnesota, he called me,
he texted me and said that he had
a surprise for me or a gift for
me or something along those lines.
And when I spoke with him.
He said he went, he went to a veteran's
clinic in San Diego and they bossed
them to Mexico and he took ayahuasca.
And when I was speaking with him
on the phone, everything he says
said was like really profound.
You know?
So I, I told him, I was just saying,
I wish I could write all this down
because everything you're saying is
so, is so really kind of incredible.
And So that sparked my interest.
That was, that was kind of
the, what sparked my interest.
At the time I was working with
an outpatient addiction doctor,
and he had a therapist and you
know, that wasn't, they weren't.
That's not the route that they took.
They, they took a different angle on it.
So I, I, I didn't want to be sneaky.
And so I just didn't do it, but it was
definitely something I wanted to do.
And then I.
Had the opportunity to do ketamine,
did that, I wanted to do catamine
because that was available
and, and really accessible.
And so I didn't want to like, I can
sit, going to Mexico was just a
little bit unrealistic at the time.
So I, yeah, so I, I heard about
Academy and I, and I tried that.
And like, what was that
experience like for you?
It was really incredible.
It it, I was, I realized that depression
just kind of numbs you because when I
got, when I finished with the ketamine
experience and came home, I just like
I, I was able to kind of like cry,
but it was a happy crying and This
might sound corny, you know, but like
seeing an old couple walking down the
sidewalk, holding hands was like,
Oh, there's still love, I tear up.
And so it was just it was like, man,
I haven't cried in like damn near 10
years, and it just felt really good.
It's just opened me up emotionally.
And everyone around me enjoyed it.
Like you have an aura about
you when, when you're.
When you take that stuff and finish and
then go throughout your day I, I would
just walk into the store that I frequently
walked into and just, you have an aura
and you know someone that the shopkeeper
there would anyways, it just, people
noticed that I had a very positive aura.
And so, yeah, that, but That was the
first, like, four to, I think it was
first four to six sessions, but I kept
doing it and, and that effect went away.
I've heard that before.
And that's something important to
acknowledge is that it, it's not
sustainable necessarily just to do.
And so what I appreciate about you is.
Then you and I met each other
at some point about integration
and preparation and What is the
importance of that to you now?
How do you know this integration
and preparation being a part of
your life regarding medicine work?
Well, first, I think, I mean, it was,
it was really, I mean, it was kind of
a miracle that I was able to, to get
in touch with you, someone that works
with, with integration and psychedelics.
That was I that was pretty cool
that I was able to get in touch
with you and discuss these things.
Because the problem with the ketamine
climax is that, yeah, you can't really,
there isn't really an outlet to discuss
this with a therapist, Yeah, I guess
you go into a K hole and then you don't
really, you just kind of, you can't,
you can't, I mean, I, I don't
really enjoy it anymore.
It's, it's not Anyways, yeah, there
is no integration in these clinics
and they upped the, the last time I
went there, they upped the dose so
much that I didn't even know where
I was just totally kind of gone.
I didn't even really remember
it when it was finished.
Thank you for that story, I
appreciate the vulnerability.
And then.
Around the same time you and I met,
you were introduced to a guide and
you found a significant relationship
to someone that you felt safe with.
Tell us about your first experience.
What was the first
experience like that you had?
Guy, after the ketamine, it
sounded like you were drawn to
something bigger and more profound.
Can you explain what was
going on in your system?
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I was definitely drawn to
something bigger and more profound.
Along with my body, I watched the
how to change your mind show on
Netflix, which was interesting.
And I wanted to keep sort of
going down that path of me.
So yeah, I, I found a guide that I really
trusted and did MDMA and mushrooms.
And that that was different.
The first time I actually,
did mushrooms prior
mushrooms were really interesting
because I, I cried with mushrooms and
it was also, but it felt more like
a purging of all of a lot of I guess
things that were maybe like in my
body, like trauma that was in my body.
I purged it out.
Right.
And do you have any opinions
on what you then heard?
Because I know as I was working with
you in the integration after that
mushroom experience, that you recognized
you needed something more, there was
still something blocked up in you.
What was your body saying to you at
that moment after that experience?
Oh, well my medications were mixed up
and I knew, yeah, that was I had a lot of
anxiety during the experience because I
knew that that was an issue and visions
of a car accident and things like that.
So I took action and switch,
switch those up and that was a
really best thing I ever did.
So what you're saying right now, and
I really appreciate it, is through
the experiences that you had a clarity
of what you noticed within yourself.
And if I recall, you actually even
remember witnessing how disconnected the
medications were in your system throughout
your psychedelic experience, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yep.
And so there was this intuition
that then you have been integrating
since that second session, what,
what have you known about yourself
since that wisdom was given to you?
I just really trust, trust my intuition.
Sometimes we almost
get out of our own way.
Yeah, exactly.
And along with the nuance of the
wisdom of cleaning and clearing out
your medications, it sounds as if
other things have come up for you.
Creativity, expression.
Can you share with me a little bit about
the difference of how you're showing up in
the world since your medicine ceremonies?
Sure.
I guess with creativity I've
always done drawing and, and I've
always been a creative person.
And then I started playing guitar.
Or like around 17, 16, 17, it's
kind of pulled around with it.
And then I was in a music business
major program in college and I
learned classical classical guitar.
And then I, after college, I didn't
really pick up a guitar until COVID.
And I started picking it up again and
then just sort of fooling around with it.
And then I guess since these
medicine sessions my playing is,
is just it's really incredible.
I never thought I'd be able to play
this well and also write music.
So after these ceremonies, I wrote a song
that I played for you that I was not bad.
Right.
And what, what I appreciate because
I met you at the onset and where you
are today, is can you speak a little
bit more of what has happened to
your depression since the ceremonies?
It is pretty much got, I mean,
it's pretty under control.
Yeah, and I appreciate that you
said under control and not gone
because we can never get it.
And I really guy appreciated
your perspective on it's under
control and you're managing it.
And yet, tell me what
brings you happiness.
What are you integrating now from the last
session because you had a third session
and what what was that like with MDMA?
And can you differentiate using MDMA
with psilocybin versus just psilocybin?
Well, I let's see.
I prefer, I guess, the combo.
But they all, they, they, they sort of
have similar things,, the last session,
when I finished the last session, it's
like, you know, I talked to my folks and
I just, you have empathy for, for people.
, like my, my dad, I was just like I want
a dad to know that I was, I was always
been so proud of him to be my dad.
And, and just, you know, I
really think he's such a, a
strong person for surviving.
He came from a hard alcoholic household.
And you have a lot of empathy for
yourself and others, you know, and
versus, you just, so it's really cool.
What's the emotion coming up
right now in you as you're
reflecting on your relationship?
With your father and the
empathy you have for him.
It's just, it's great because you don't,
unfortunately just can't, sometimes
you just can't see it, you know,
and there was, there was some, you
know, there's been some there's been
a divide and then there's aggression
meets aggression and that just sucks.
And just, you know, something it
takes an outside, sometimes it
takes an outside external thing.
To change, to change the path, you know, I
said, there's this one interesting person
that told me like turtles, they, they only
move like a mile and their whole life.
And unless somebody like.
picks them up and changes their direction.
They'll just keep going in the
same direction, so like don't get
hit by a car, I thought that was
an interesting analogy, you know.
Sometimes it's an external force that
kind of just change where you're going.
That's a fantastic experience
and I love that story.
Yeah.
You're coming from so much experience with
the system of addiction and treatment.
What would you say to someone that's
considering exploring psychedelic
medicine with, you know, there's
preconceived notions of the addiction
world with medicine and psychedelics.
Can you tell me how you respect
the psychedelics and your
sobriety at the same time?
Yeah for me personally, they, they,
they, they didn't like mushrooms.
Aren't really, they don't seem to have any
kind of like addiction qualities to them.
Because
I, I've purchased a large
amount and then, , taking it.
Like, and then I, I like get
sick of it, I was like, I
really don't feel it's different.
Yeah, you don't really want to
go back to it every day, right?
No.
So that's a, that's a difference.
And that's the real big difference,
you know, and then it, it, it changes
your, it, it changes your mindset.
it's beneficial, there's,
there's, there's benefits to it.
And I, and I don't really see
it as habit forming, you know?
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
What do you believe is the way you know
you're going to come back to psychedelics?
When do you recognize you
would want to do it again?
How do you make that decision?
I feel ready and if I have I, I wouldn't
just go into it to get messed up, I
want to go, I'd want to go into it
with, with something like I'd want to
prepare and have something I want to
get out of it, instead of, you know, so
that, that, that's an important factor,
I don't want to just go, go into
it to change the way I feel and
party, you know, like I want to go
into it to change the way I think,
I guess, you know, I value that.
What have people around you?
Said about your transformation in
the course of the last six months.
Oh every I've had a lot of good
things a lot of compliments on the
music i'm playing and a lot of
the people that I'm around have
definitely noticed a difference and
are really glad that I'm doing so well.
And what do you say about yourself?
What is the validation and compliment
you've been giving yourself lately?
I really like myself.
I think it's, Dealing with alcohol
and relapsing all the time.
And you just start, you really, you just,
you kind of don't like yourself anymore.
You get, you just like sick of
yourself and you forget all these
great qualities that I have.
And even though, there's some
things that are difficult, like.
Like dealing , with alcohol I
can't drink and that's fine.
I've actually learned to
not really wanted to drink.
And then, you know, with things like
OCD and, like maybe, maybe if I didn't
have OCD, then some other things that
are so great about myself, they wouldn't
be there, maybe it's just all kind of
part of part of the package, I guess,
that, and I, I really just, I really do
like myself and and so And like, like
I said, with late, late bloomer and
stuff, all the stuff before I, I just,
I, it hadn't all come together yet.
But the reason I'm, I can, I can
play guitar really well and golf
really well and all these things is
because I did put in a lot of work.
And so yeah, the bat, the, the
years that I was struggling,
I don't regret them, I guess.
And I'm really glad to
be where I am today.
What you just said is priceless.
The fact that we don't regret the
past, we don't regret the experiences
we have, and we've come to a
clearer sense of loving ourself.
accepting ourselves and yet still
understand there's work and devotion each
and every day and guy this is a tremendous
insight i for sharing that because we do
need some compassion for self do we not
of course yeah it's i think if you don't
have compassion for yourself then you're
unattractive to other people and you and
then you can't give So you can't, you
can't give to other people, so it's,
it's really, it's really nice to, like
I said, it is kind of an, you do, you
give off positive vibes, you know, and
then I, I really do think that there's
things that I can give to the world, you
know, and I can speaking with people.
I mean, just, I was just talking with
a guy yesterday and I just, I, I think
I might've really, really helped him
just just, just talking about stuff.
I don't know.
You know I think people are just.
There's things I can contribute and to
help people, and if you're really down
and you, you don't like yourself, then,
then you just have negative, it's just,
it's, it's really, it's really tough for,
for other people to be attracted to you.
Thank you, Guy.
Guy, what are you doing to
be gentle with yourself?
I recognize, you know, when I make
mistakes that that's okay, and I can
just be okay with that and learn from it.
And yeah, I'm so proud of myself
that I'm, that I'm almost nine months.
Without drinking, which it was,
it was, I mean, that's just real
insanity to go through that and to
be absolutely positive that you're
not going to drink and then you do
it and then you wake up the next day
and it's just, it's, it's really, it
was, it's the most horrifying thing.
And but I really do.
I think.
I think that I've matured and grown
so much from all this that, God, it
was horrible, but I think something
really good is going to come out of it.
What's the emotion I see
on your face right now?
I guess, I guess I'm real, I'm
really happy that, that, you
know, things came together, you
know, versus just yeah, it's, it's
really wonderful blessings to you.
I bowed you so much, man.
You're ideal.
In the way you see things and just the
continued work and effort and humility
means a lot to me and I, I'm grateful.
I get to walk alongside you.
Thank you so much.
I am as well.
It's a fun relationship
and I appreciate it.
Yeah.