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Long Game: A Heated Rivalry Podcast is a re-watch and deep-dive podcast dedicated to Heated Rivalry, hosted by Declan and Silvan. In each episode, we revisit key moments across the series, unpacking the slow-burn tension, character development, and emotional beats that make the heated rivalry world so compelling. Through thoughtful discussion, close reading, and a fan-informed lens, we explore themes of competition, intimacy, identity, and growth over time, celebrating not just the heat of the rivalry, but the long game it takes to truly understand these characters and their relationship.
New episodes published every Sunday
Declan (00:00)
So welcome back to part two of our episode where we're focusing on the psychology behind heated rivalry. We've talked about a lot in terms of attachment styles,
and their parents, their sort of backgrounds growing up. So now we're looking to get into some other topics. Silvan when you had a few ideas.
Silvan (00:22)
So we talked a lot about the attachment styles for the characters in the first episode. I wanted to talk a little bit about the parenting styles now. So again, the teacher in me wants to tell you what parenting styles there are out there. So we've got four main parenting styles. We've got the authoritarian, the authoritative, which can be very confusing, democratic, permissive, and neglecting. I know that's five. I made a mistake.
Neelam (00:49)
you
Silvan (00:49)
Neelam, can you talk to us a little bit about what your take on Shane's parenting, the parenting style for Shane's parents?
Neelam (00:59)
can try, if I'm honest I don't know that much about this area so I can give it a go but not with much credibility probably. But I think speaking around them, it's very very clear that Yuna is mom in charge, momager right? And do we know Shane's dad's name? he just dad? David, okay. And David, I just feel like he was the one who got Shane into ice hockey when he was younger.
Silvan (01:21)
David.
Neelam (01:29)
took him to games, took him on the ice for the first time. And now that Shane has become this amazing, successful player, he's just like, my dad is done. And Yuna steps in and she's got that classic authoritative nature where, but also that very classic like global majority or authoritative nature where it feels like, you know, being a brown person, it feels like something that is instilled in.
in us from an early age culturally. So that's kind of, I don't want to say taken over, but those features are coming out more clearly as Shane has become more successful and has taken ice hockey, I guess, more seriously and more professionally. And yeah, I think David's just taken a bit more of a backseat, which is fine.
Declan (02:14)
David Dawes seemed to like fade into the background. I didn't even know his name before he did it, Sylvan. He seems to be a bit more of the I'll let her handle things from here and I will just sort of be in the background, a little bit of emotional support. But no, this is a bit of an interesting detail. But in the books, you learn that Shane loves hockey.
⁓ like he actually loves the game. Ilya loves winning. So that's sort of plays a bit into, I think what you're talking about in terms of, I bet it was his dad that got him into the hockey. I bet it was in the family. Cause there is obviously he's doing it for the love of it. And it's sort of been turned into and hijacked into this really high stakes.
very intense and intense thing that he has to do. And I always wonder like how much is enjoying this at this point? Like is he still loving the game? Because when he's playing with Ilya it's really... I was just sort of struck by the fact that he was having such a good time. He was having so much fun whenever they were playing that game and...
He seems to a lot of fun when he's playing against them as well. Like they're both smiling whenever they're playing against each other and they're giving each other a little bit of shit. Like even that scene in the fifth episode, wherever they're smiling at each other so much that Shane ends up getting wiped out completely and ends up in hospital. So I'm wondering like how much of the pressure that's being put on Shane to go professional was a result of his mom?
Neelam (03:50)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (03:57)
like is that song a place under him? And yeah, I just think it's, I'd be very interested to be able to sit down and ask Shane those questions. Like, are you still enjoying this? Like, are you, are you having fun? Like, you do love it, but like, are you, are you still having fun?
Silvan (04:15)
those are the questions, if you notice, that, well, neither of them are asked really, but specifically Shane, when we're talking about him, no one's sitting to him down and saying, do you want to do this ad? Do you want to do the Olympics? Do you want to do this? I know he talks about wanting to do the Olympics for a very long time, so maybe that doesn't really apply. But in a way, there's almost this expectation and this implicit expectation that they will be playing. And you talked about when
Shane and Ilya were playing, there's almost this return to childhood when they are playing together and this mischievousness. It's almost like when you're kids and there are no rules and you just play for the love and the fun of it. And if someone breaks a leg, someone breaks a leg kind of thing. I mean, he gets a concussion, so almost the same thing.
Neelam (04:56)
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
Declan (04:59)
Mm-hmm.
Neelam (05:02)
No.
Silvan (05:05)
there is this regression to childhood that I was picking up on. So that's really interesting that you said that.
Declan (05:06)
in a
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Neelam (05:12)
And I wonder if
now, now that they're older, does anyone even care if they're having fun anymore? Because I guess when you get to that level of success, you are a commodity. You become completely commodified. You are a representation of the sport of your teams of ice hockey. You are an advert, you know? So yeah, you're right. think no one's asked them those questions because I don't think anyone really cares. They are, they're doing exactly what they need to do, which is sell themselves and sell ice hockey. And
Declan (05:37)
Yeah
Neelam (05:38)
Yeah, and it's so lovely that through that they found each other, because otherwise I think it probably, like even the thing that they love the most in the world probably would become quite lonely.
Declan (05:50)
Yeah, yeah, it's just a thing as well. mean, it's always important to keep in mind professional athletes retire very early. So they do, were trying, they, it's usually between late 30s and mid 40s. That's usually the standard age for retirement. Some people have to retire early because being a professional athlete, nearly any sport is really demanding on your body and can be really destructive. So
I think the idea that Shane is getting so caught up in his image of how he will be seen in hockey and he's really sort of putting his future, sort of his future in terms of his relationships, his life, what he'll actually do after all this on hold. Like he is going to someone there, he's going to want a love, he's going to want a family, he's going to want something that gives us like meaning whenever the hockey's gone.
⁓ no, he could come back and be a commentator or whatever, but it's not going to be the same. It's not going to fill his eyes in the same way that it does right now. which is something that, you know, I can imagine a lot of professional athletes are thinking about, and yeah, it's maybe someone Shane really needs to consider a bit heavier, than he currently has. because I feel like Ilya is a lot more.
I think towards the end of the show, Ilya's a lot more prepared to sacrifice stuff than Shane is at this point. yeah.
Silvan (07:15)
Well, he's prepared to sacrifice playing for a lesser team just to be in Canada, to be nearer to Shane. And I feel like a lot of what you're talking about sort of when an athlete comes to their retirement is almost a process of grief. There is a loss that they're anticipating, which is one of the grief, one of the types of grief. It's, know, anticipatory grief where you're looking at the end of something before it's happened and you're almost mourning it in a way.
Neelam (07:30)
Hmm.
Declan (07:46)
But I think Ilya is much more willing to do that than Shane is. I think Ilya is looking ahead. Whenever that last episode happens and they're sitting on the sofa, Ilya is the one that brings up the conversation about maybe I need to marry, maybe I need to secure citizenship, need to find a way, I need to do this and do that and I might have to marry Svetlana and I can get citizenship for her and then maybe I can do the Canada thing and what if I switch teams and
he has prepared, he's thinking about this, he's thinking about the end of his career, he's what he is thinking about the possibilities of what his life is going to look like should this not go right. And it's only when Ilya brings it up and whenever Shane gets an inkling that he's going to marry someone else, wait no he's not going to be with me, I'm going to lose him if I don't like start planning this now I need to like and then he goes into uni mode.
and he has it laid out then. It's like, don't marry her, we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we're going to start a charity, we're going to slowly kill the rivalry image that we've got going on, and we're going to do all these things. But it isn't until Ilya is the one who sort of like forces him to begin to think about it, that she ain't even consider it.
Neelam (09:04)
I don't think that's intentional on Ilya's part either because he has already lost so much. I don't just mean his parents. mean, he's lost his country. He's lost his home. He's lost anything that ties him to Russia by that point, I think. Right. That's after the big blow up. And so I kind of viewed that whole him thinking about whether he should marry Svetlana, all of that. It's kind of like trying to salvage. Like what else is that? He's at that point where he has almost nothing to lose. Right.
Declan (09:31)
You know what?
Neelam (09:31)
apart
from his career, the biggest thing in the world, his career and cementing that here. And then it's like, once he realizes that, you know, once Shane's parents realize that they're together, it's like, okay, I have to take a different type of risk now. You know, like that, it's almost like he, it accelerates that grieving process, but back into living, because it's like, okay, I'm grieving that life, but that life is done now, actually. Now I need to think about me, I've here moving forward.
Declan (09:58)
Yeah.
It's also important to note as well that as far as we know, Svetlana is America and Ilya will be giving up his team in America to move to Canada with Shane. So not only is he leaving behind his team that he's established, mean, he's been winning Stanley Cups with this team. He's been achieving his dreams. He's been performing the best that he can. And not only that, but he's also willing to give up.
Svetlana, the ease of access to her, no matter how easy that might be or not. You know, he's still moving hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles away to be with Shane. his level of commitment at this point is actually pretty admirable, I think.
Silvan (10:42)
Yeah, and in a way I can see Ilya sort of really taking this lead. he's almost, while Shane is sort of formulating the plan and he gets up in the middle of the night and he's like, right, we're gonna do the charity, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. Ilya is the one probing, Ilya is the one pushing the relationship forward. And I'm thinking of the power dynamics in this relationship and how that plays out.
and so neelam what i'm wondering then is when you have a relationship like this where one is taking a more sort of dominant role
Yes, and he does so sexually, but also in pursuing the and pushing the relationship forward. What does that look like as a couple? we think about like couples therapy, for example, what does that look like for a couple?
Neelam (11:30)
think that's really interesting that you give him the more dominant role. cause yeah, like sure, sexually, but I think that dominance can mean different things, right? So I think what it actually gives us is someone who is more emotionally driven and someone is more pragmatically driven and those two people coming together to figure things out together. Cause I think that's what we're seeing with Ilya. is so emotionally driven and because he is so chaotic, but
because he's had these big things happen to him. And Shane, because of the nature of how he's been brought up and the things that he's been through, he is able to take that step back and maybe notice his emotions, but kind of like, pock them here and then use that planning, use that structure through. And so I think it's a really important dynamic in a relationship. Like we need to be able to hold both and ideally we'd have like an equal split of both of those things in two partners, but like so rarely happens.
And so as long as they're both able to like have that space for each other and both like have those roles, I guess, and come to the conclusion that they both want, it can work. I guess where it then affects power is when one gets in the way of relating to the other. So when that emotion becomes too difficult to sort of to hold, or when that planning and when that organising gets in the way of emotion as well. So
At the moment, it feels like the power dynamic is fairly balanced, to be honest, Shane's recognised what Ilya needs. He's really been there for Ilya, through that phone call and through everything afterwards. But I'm just wary about, is Ilya going to be what Shane needs in the future as well? Is he going to be able to take that step back and be a bit more pragmatic?
Silvan (13:15)
I'm looking at Declan's face because he is trying not to say any spoilers right now and we're going to get so many comments if he does. So I appreciate the restraint Declan, I can see it in your face. ⁓
Neelam (13:19)
you
Declan (13:28)
I will just say that what you said is very relevant.
Silvan (13:34)
And let's leave it at that before I get the hate comments.
Declan (13:38)
But it actually points out to me that Rachel Reed has developed two very well-realized characters that come across as people, like real people that could be out there and alive and living their lives and having the deal of all this stuff. Because it just fits so well. So it does, like so much of their dynamic just works. Yeah, I just...
Just a little comment just from the side, but yeah, think I just, yeah, I'm really appreciating the quality of the character writing, I think.
Silvan (14:14)
And so with power, there's this element of shame attached to it as well.
There's the shame of being gay and wanting to sort of come out for both these characters, really. Declan, what do you think about those psychological ramifications? And I know we've talked a little bit about that in previous episodes, but from an internal working model almost, from an attachment style even, what the ramifications of growing up gay and not being able to express that fully until you feel ready to do that does to a person.
Declan (14:48)
think leaves you almost incapable of being securely attached because there is always that constant fear that you are going to be abandoned because of what you are. And I think as we're older, I don't think we fully remember or appreciate like what it's like to feel emotions like that when you're young. Like they are so all encompassing and your brain is still developing and your emotional regulation.
just isn't quite there. And neither is your rationality, either. It's like your, your ego, super ego, they're all vying for dominance at this point in time. You've not reached your balance yet. You've not reached your, your settled sort of status. And so because of that, you are so easily triggered by these emotions and they become so large. And so that feeling of shame is all encompassing and it wipes out.
any sort of feeling of love and affection that you feel from your parents because you suddenly become fixated on this idea that they could withdraw their love at any time. If I tell them this, they could withdraw their love and then I'm screwed. I have nothing. And so for me personally, like my parents were very open, very progressive people and they raised us to basically do whatever we wanted.
be nice to people. But I was still terrified, absolutely terrified that I would possibly lose those relationships, that I would lose that love. And as an adult now, I think it's ridiculous that I ever thought that they would ever think of me differently as the result of that. But I think when you're like that, it's just, you're so, it's so all-encompassing and it's just so overwhelming. And it's very hard to let it go.
it is. And I think a lot of people come out in their early 20s rather than when they're teenagers because their brains are a more developed at that point. They can rationalize a bit better. They are better judges of how people will react and how like authentic a love for you actually is. You're able to get an idea of people's morals and as sort of
their standards for themselves and for society and how they view things. And I think it allows you to make better decisions, like better judgements. Like I can feel comfortable coming out to you now because I know you, for a matter of fact, are going to be okay with it because I know you. I know the way that you react to certain things. I know your views on this thing. I know your morals. I know your principles. Like I have a good idea of who you are as a person. So I feel comfortable doing this now because I feel safer now.
I feel like I know you better. But I think that's just you learning how to greet people better and judge emotion better. And that feeling of shame can be a little less or sort of all encompassing as well.
Neelam (17:53)
And that makes me think of Scott, who feels like the most extreme example of this, Where he hasn't had people to try that out with, to see how people react. Like that shame is so overwhelming that he can't even go into a room of strangers where Kip is for his birthday and be next to him. Like, because that shame is so overwhelming. And it stops being, at some point it stops just being like...
my parents would abandon me, or the people that I love would abandon me, that real, real enduring core belief becomes, everyone will abandon me, I will be abandoned by the world. And I feel like that's where Scott is, until he isn't.
Declan (18:33)
Yeah.
Yeah, he's having to rewrite those core beliefs about himself and about the world as well. ⁓ That's so interesting. You brought up the core beliefs. That's actually really clever, so it is. He be a psychologist. ⁓
Neelam (18:41)
Yeah.
Silvan (18:49)
Well, she is a resident doctor here. But you're right.
Neelam (18:50)
No.
Silvan (18:55)
those core beliefs, they are core beliefs because they are quite deep within us, they're rooted in us. And to even be able to acknowledge them is one thing, but then to act on them and try and change in spite of them is a whole other thing.
I'm wondering for you, Neelam, because we've never really had this conversation as a straight woman, how does that feel listening to Declan's account of internalizing that shame and even though he had very supportive networks around him having to withhold for a long time? Because I don't know what it's like for someone as a straight person to be able to express that or how they maneuver around something like
Neelam (19:39)
feel like it's something that I can honestly really only connect to intellectually because that is just not my experience, you know, and I have people who are very close to me who that has been their experience and I can be there for them and I can, you know, I can go through all the emotions with it, but I will never have experienced that myself. again, intellectually though, I know the...
how debilitating that can be, how the acceptance of yourself, coming out, everything in between and managing that shame. But I haven't walked in those shoes. And even I might have in other areas, but when it's something that's so core to your identity, yeah, like I said, it's something that I can connect with intellectually and that's kind of where I'm at with it.
Silvan (20:30)
Yeah, because in a way, you know, that shame is also rooted in discrimination. That's what we're talking about as well. And for those people who are listening and can't watch, both Neelam and I are from Indian descent. And so I'm wondering how that discrimination because of the color of your skin, for example, how that relates then.
Neelam (20:35)
Mmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah, so yeah, like you said, we're both from a global majority descent and that is something that I connect with, but I don't want to and yeah, I know how that feels. I know how laden that is in every sense, but I do think that in growing up in England, growing up here, like having been born here.
shame does look different as well and shame is weaponized differently to how it is for sexuality. think that I don't think, I don't think you guys think that we can lump in different forms of discrimination together because they don't have their own nuances and yeah the experience of being a person of colour versus being someone who is queer are so so different and that feeling of shame looks different as well.
Declan (21:40)
People experience emotions in different ways based on the experience that they've gone through personally. Like, obviously, the shame that I experienced as a result of my sexuality would feel very different to sort of the shame that you'd be made to feel as a result of your skin color, your race, your religion, your socioeconomic background.
they all feel slightly different. They're like a different, it's interesting that an emotion can be felt in so many different ways and coming from different sources. So yeah, I think the severity of sort of being queer and not wanting to come out, I think because of the time when it all begins to happen, when you all begin to feel it.
is so perfect, it's just the worst possible time you could possibly deal with it. You're entering adolescence, your hormones are all over the place. Your peer group has completely changed. You're not trying to impress your parents, you're trying to impress the people around you. You're immediate friends. These new connections you're supposed to be forming and you're trying to form new people while you're withholding parts of yourself. So you're stunted there as well.
Which you wanted to say so, Neil?
Neelam (22:53)
No, I just, just what you said about withholding. I think that's such a key part of it. Cause when Sylvan, you were asking about race, like I can't hide the fact that I'm brown, you know, like that has been on my, literally on my face since the day I was born. But sexuality is not like that. There's something very active and withholding and what that mental process is behind that. What that does to you to have to essentially figure out what's going on for yourself. I, you know, but also then figure out how you're going to navigate this.
What secret? Like what you're going to do with that? How you're going to manage it? Who you're going to... There's so many questions that come out of it. yeah, it's different experience.
Declan (23:28)
Yeah,
it's also I was really I don't like keeping secrets. I am a bad liar. Like really bad. I am like certified yapper. I like I don't like to keep things to myself, which isn't always the benefit to me. But yeah, so for me, it felt like like a real. A real inconsistency with who I was as a person.
I was denying two aspects of myself, my need for honesty along with my need to be true to myself in terms of my sexuality. how it sort of plays out then in this show, you can sort of see where that shame has brought Ilya and Shane. Ilya's family dynamics are entirely reliant on how he addresses his sexuality. I mean his brother
hates him because he suspects that he might be anything less than straight. Shane is terrified of losing his career. He is riddled with anxiety over the whole thing. He can't even speak the words until episode five, whenever literally someone has to coax an audio in the gentlest, most therapeutic setting you could possibly have. By the way, that was great. It was so good.
Neelam (24:48)
That scene, ⁓ that scene.
Declan (24:51)
Oh hats off to Rose. But he needed to be like handheld in the gentlest way with someone that he trusts implicitly to even nod his head when someone asks him if he's Like that was the level of debilitating shame that he was dealing with. And it makes you think like how you because I felt when I came out I could finally do everything at 100 percent.
Neelam (24:53)
Mm.
Declan (25:21)
Like I no longer had a constant like 30 or 40 % of my brain constantly being taken up by this constant worry. And then when I was free, I could free up my mind for everything else that I wanted to do and wanted to achieve. for me, it's what is now Ilya and Shane holding back from? Like what is that 40 or 30 % in the back of their mind? What is that stopping them from achieving?
And what it seems to be is an amazing soulmate level romantic connection that gives both of them family and purpose and belonging. And they just can't push past the shame.
Silvan (26:07)
Yeah, and in a way as you were talking, Declan, I was thinking this is Shane's first male relationship or for both of them their first male relationship, different from a sexual relationship, right? And how unfair is it that Shane gets a boyfriend and a lover the first time round? Because the rest of us took Charlotte from Sex and the City, I've been dating since I was 15, I'm tired.
Declan (26:37)
You
Silvan (26:38)
But no,
good for him, good for him. I'm not bitter at all. But maybe to come back to what Neelam was saying, if I can, because as you were talking, Neelam, know, Burnham's social graces were thrown at me. You know, we talk about sort of, and if for someone who's not familiar with Burnham's social graces, it's the teacher in me, I'm really sorry. But Burnham wrote a paper called Social Graces, and it's social graces with lots of acronyms.
Neelam (26:51)
Mmm.
Silvan (27:03)
And each one stands for something like sexuality, age, gender, and so forth. And you talked about race is not something that you can always hide because it's the color of your skin for a lot of people. For some people it's not. Disability might be something that you can and can't sort of mask in a way or is not overt, I should say. And I was thinking about masculinity and feminine traits and how for some...
queer people, have very sort of, there's a spectrum, right? They are very either mask presenting or femme presenting or somewhere in between. And for those people who display sort of traits of the opposite gender, for example, that are very overt,
I was thinking about how they wouldn't necessarily hide that and it would be more obvious. And I can imagine for some people, they're almost told you're gay from a very young age because of the way they act and how that label is almost thrusted upon them. And it just made me think about how some labels are ascribed and some labels are literally you're given that label from a very young age.
Neelam (28:14)
And yeah, and in professional sport, how does that come in as well? Like, do we know any gay footballers? You know, just generally, like right now, do we know? I mean, I don't know any footballers, but do we know any gay footballers? But yeah, but ice hockey, obviously that feels like the most masculine sport, like, yeah. yeah, like what, what, what'd that mean for someone to be ascribed?
Silvan (28:24)
You're asking the wrong people.
Declan (28:24)
think there is like one
Spanish guy, yeah.
Silvan (28:29)
What's that?
Neelam (28:44)
a label like that? Would that limit their opportunities? Would that limit what they conceive their opportunities to be?
Because from a young age, like if we're talking like under 12 sort of thing, if you're thinking I'm gay or if you're thinking I'm, you know, whatever it is, what does that do to your self-concept? What roles does that bring up for you? Do you think that being a professional athlete is even possible for someone like you because of what society has said is possible? You know, like how limiting can that be or not, but the possibility of it.
Silvan (29:20)
And in a way, I'm thinking about this story between Shane and Ilya. And to be crude, they are very mask presenting. And I wonder how this story or this show would have resonated and if it would have resonated for people if one of them was more feminine. I'm thinking about the Netflix show, Glamorous, where the main titular character is very feminine.
Do you know what That show got cancelled after one season and it had it had Kim Cattrall in it, like they had some good stock in that show. But would a story like this have appealed to such a wide audience had one of them not been as masked?
Declan (30:03)
an interesting question. Well let me put it this way, many more feminine presenting sports people do you know?
Neelam (30:05)
Mm.
Declan (30:17)
None. Literally none. Because they are bullied out of the sport. By the time that they get to an age where they could do it professionally, they're bullied out of it. Either that or they're forced to suppress that true like representation of themselves. 100%. Yeah. They're basically given the option of you can repress this element of yourself and go after your dream or you be your true authentic self and you have to give up that dream.
That's that is the option they're they're being given. That's why you don't see more feminine guys as like big time athletes or or if it if it is an athlete, it is like a very specific type of sport, say ice skating, something like that, where that is does know as an association of the feminine as well, because that's just what we did. Apparently, we just assigned that as a feminine sport at one point.
Neelam (31:02)
Hmm.
Declan (31:13)
outside of that you just don't see it and it's because you would be literally just ridiculed out of it so you would 100%. There's a cruelty to it and yeah I don't think it only comes from homophobia either as in from straight people. I think it comes internally as well from queer people themselves. I think they have a specific idea of how you're supposed to be queer and what they want to see in people.
and you will be bullied or hammered on the shape to fit that.
Neelam (31:49)
So yeah, I think with that in mind, like going back to your question, Sylvan, like I think that if there was a femme presenting character in the show, it would have undermined its authenticity because that is not the script that we are used to. We've not seen it for all the reasons that Declan just talked about. It wouldn't be believable, you know? Because that would be the whole story. And I was like, what? This person has made it to this level? Or yeah, I just don't think it would have
believable and even if we're thinking about Kip and Scott similarly I don't think it would have been believable because how are we supposed to believe that someone who is so repressed and has so much shame in him is going to take even bigger risk because of how yeah how queerness is supposed to present itself.
Silvan (32:37)
Yeah, if Kip was very femme in his nature, would Scott have pulled him out in the middle of the ice ring after he won the cup? I'm not sure, honestly. yeah, yeah. And I know, Declan, having you read the books, there is one of the books. So without spoilers, I know there is a femme character in one of the books. I wonder if you can speak to that.
Neelam (32:43)
Hmm. Exactly. But Scott have even approached him.
Declan (32:50)
Yeah.
Yes, so the next book actually from here at Rivalry, I think it's Common Goal, is centered around a hockey player who is a bruiser, which basically means this guy is on the team to beat the shit out of other people. Whenever they get into a fight, they need someone to take the hits. And so they have this guy and he is the epitome of just typical masculinity.
he's also gay and he's secretly gay. He then meets this musician, think it's Fabian, Fabian, it's one of the two, and he he dresses androgynously. He is very femme in the way that he presents himself. He is unapologetically sassy, he is giving it the nines, he is
such a fun character and I'm very interested to see how this plays out on the screen because what we were originally... I think this has set us up nicely to be able to do a story like this now. It's like well let's introduce like a fan guy then, let's see how this plays out and what's going to be interesting about his character is that he keeps talking, he has a history with it.
Silvan (34:10)
Hmm.
Declan (34:22)
So that creates an additional sort of dynamic as well because his experience is exactly how I described. He was constantly around that sort of environment. And so him being openly queer, he never felt comfortable around them. So he didn't never felt comfortable around athletes as a result of that. So a very interesting story that's going to happen. I'm really, really looking forward to it.
But it'll be very interesting to see how audiences react to that sort of dynamic playing out.
Silvan (34:53)
Yeah, definitely. And if it's even included in season two or potentially season three, we don't know what's going to come up, right?
Declan (35:00)
I think it will be season 2 because
Silvan (35:06)
Say less, Declan, say less. Honestly.
Declan (35:06)
⁓ Their story
Neelam (35:07)
Yeah.
Declan (35:08)
needs to happen for the flow of Shane and Ilya's story to happen properly. So I'll leave it at that. I'll not say anything else.
Silvan (35:11)
Okay.
So, coming back to the characters that we know, what I wanted to get all our takes on is what therapy model would you use on each of these characters? So, I think, let's start with Ilya. Neelam, what kind of therapy modality would you use with Ilya? If you could only choose one.
Declan (35:27)
BOOM
Silvan (35:37)
I know there's integrative therapies where you can use a lot of all of them, but let's just choose one.
Neelam (35:37)
This guy.
Right, this guy is getting, if it was my choice, he's getting some psychoanalytic psychotherapy. He needs time, he needs time. And he also needs, I think he needs a therapist who is able to sit with whatever he throws at them to be able to really hold that transference and be to be able to relay what's going on in the room back to him and to give him the time and the space, really the time, the space to form a safe relationship.
Declan (35:47)
Bye.
Neelam (36:10)
way he can delve back into years and years worth of life. Probably before even touching sexuality, before even touching these things, there's so much for him to unpack. And I think, yeah, psychoanalytic psychotherapy, being an analysis, I think that would give him structure for someone who is so chaotic otherwise, would give him something to be accountable to because it's so strict. And also I think it's something that once he bought in,
he might, I think part of him might feel like he wants to win it, you know? So by not doing what he needs, by not showing up, by not doing the work between sessions, like the mental work between sessions, like yeah, I think all of that would undermine his own self-identity pools.
Silvan (36:58)
I agree. I don't know if you had any other thoughts about Ilya specifically, Declan.
Declan (37:04)
know that you're 100 % on the money with him. Like he needs psychodynamic, psychoanalytical, he needs a real dive into that past because he's just sort of shunted to the back of his mind where he's sort of set up all these defense mechanisms that he's never put down again. 100 % he would definitely benefit from that as well. And also just to give him some context as to
Neelam (37:06)
Hahaha
Declan (37:27)
why he is the way he is himself, like a bit of understanding of why he behaves and feels the way that he does. Like for a lot of people that's enough to make the change. It's like, I'm doing that because that happened to me. No, I don't want to be like that anymore. I want to change this about me. That's not something that I want to carry. And that's very, very powerful. And I think
Neelam (37:29)
Hmm.
Declan (37:51)
because so much of his issues stem from childhood, I think that that's the best option to look at.
Silvan (37:58)
Yeah, and I want to add to that, Neelam, because something you said was, you he would want to win it. And for context, know, strict psychodynamic or psychoanalytic work, you're in four or five times a week. So he's going to be like, I'm going to commit, I'm going to win, I'm going to do this, I'm going to be the best at this in a way.
Neelam (38:10)
Yeah.
Silvan (38:18)
and can I add another modality for Ilya? I would add EMDR. I can't remember what that stands for, but Neelam, take it away and I'll carry on.
Neelam (38:26)
So EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. ⁓
Silvan (38:31)
Thank you. She says it's so much more eloquently than I do. But the
reason why I would add EMDR for Ilya specifically is because the nature of that therapy deals with very sort of specific memories and very traumatic memories, for example. And it can be used with the eye. So it's literally doing this with the eyes or buzzes in the hands, for example. And I think EMDR surrounding a lot of the memories surrounding his mum's death and his mum's suicide.
and what an impact that's had for him. And the fact that he finds her when she has committed suicide as well, I think some of those things are going to stay with him for a very long time. And I can imagine the flashbacks and things like that for him. And so that's I was thinking EMDR might be a good alternative for him to delve into, which isn't as long as psychoanalytic psychotherapy, but I think would still scratch beneath the surface for him.
Neelam (39:27)
That's so interesting because it's trauma work without all the talking.
Declan (39:29)
Hmm, yeah. can see that. So I can. ⁓
Silvan (39:34)
I'm a fan.
Neelam (39:35)
Yeah, no EMDR
is great. I didn't consider that for him at all.
Silvan (39:43)
And that's what I love about all these different takes is we all come from very different psychological backgrounds. Okay, so Ilya is from the sounds of what we're talking about going in four to five times a week with the same therapist for a while, we think. Okay, what about Shane? Working up to it, yeah. And so what are your thoughts on Shane Declan?
Neelam (39:45)
Yeah.
Declan (39:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Neelam (39:56)
⁓
lucky monster.
Declan (40:04)
CBT. He is riddled with anxiety. Like the boy needs a worksheet more than he needs anything else. And obviously CBT so much of it, it just requires the client to put in so much work themselves. And a lot of times it's a lot of homework and you need to have someone who's very motivated to want to do that and Shane just takes all those boxes. is that sort of
Neelam (40:06)
Yep.
Mm-hmm
Declan (40:32)
pleasing kind of person where he wants to constantly succeed, where he would 100 % fully participate in what you want them to do. And it also is just such a good way of reducing down anxiety to much more manageable levels. And I think also because of Shane's well-implied OCD, it's also a really useful tool for that as well. So
That's what I would recommend for him. think he would really benefit from the structure of it. I think it would feel familiar to him. It would feel less chaotic and maybe less invasive maybe. Because a lot of Shane's, you could say habits, feel like are, some might be coming from his mom, but I think a lot of it is just Shane. I think he is naturally predisposed to being anxious.
because of his personality type, because of his neurodivergence. And so I wouldn't see a lot of benefit in diving way back into his past to try to find some sort of triggering event. It would be more about how he learns to sort of manage himself in general, so I think that would be the best suit for him.
Silvan (41:43)
Any thoughts, Neelam?
Neelam (41:44)
I totally agree. Yeah. I CBT for I was toying between to start with like general anxiety or OCD, but probably anxiety is a good starting point and then bringing in some of that OCD work. I do. I think though that that's why I'm not thinking CBT and like a very LHS you get your 12 weeks and you're out sort of Yeah. But
Silvan (41:47)
Thank you.
Declan (41:55)
Hmm
Yeah, absolutely not. No, he's a hockey player. He can afford the long-term plan.
Neelam (42:10)
I think he would benefit from having a approach where you're doing that work, you're doing those, you're doing your worksheets and you're doing the work that CBT requires, but spending also quite a long time on formulation because I think for that to be lasting changes, if he can relate it back to not like these big traumatic events that happens, but like when this happened, this is triggered, which you would do in CBT anyway, but just spending some time.
Declan (42:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Neelam (42:36)
and giving him that chance to look back if he wants to and to consider some of those wider social graces as well because I think they might not lend themselves immediately into CBT work but there's always a backdrop of those things.
Declan (42:41)
Yeah.
Silvan (42:50)
I love that, Neelam, because you can work on that longitudinal formulation where you look at early experiences and how they of trickle down into presenting symptoms. I wonder if I can add another one. I'm here for the wild cards. Systemic therapy, or in America, I think they call it internal family systems, I think, ⁓ only because of the relationship he has with his parents. And I think getting all three of them in a room and having a reflective team behind them or behind the mirror,
Declan (42:50)
Yeah.
Neelam (42:57)
Mm-hmm.
You
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mmm.
Silvan (43:19)
just to be able to really tease apart some of the relationships that he has with his parents and the relationship between his parents as well. What do you think?
Neelam (43:29)
Yeah.
Declan (43:29)
Yeah.
sounds cool.
Neelam (43:33)
Yeah.
Silvan (43:34)
It's
only because I'm studying it right now.
Neelam (43:36)
And it's fascinating. I think, yeah, but like in a bit.
Declan (43:37)
Yeah, I would love to look at that. Yeah,
let's get him not freaking out about falling in his clothes first. Yeah, and having the only drank ginger ale and eat salmon.
Neelam (43:46)
Yeah, and drinking something on the ginger ale. Poor boy. Yeah. ⁓
Silvan (43:47)
Yeah, yeah.
And so
where would you go with Scott? Because I'm a bit stumped on this.
Neelam (43:58)
Hmm.
Declan (44:00)
Scott, think humanistic would be a very good approach for him. I think he feels like someone that would just benefit from having a lot of time to verbally explore his issues because he doesn't have anyone to do that with. Scott could be perfectly functioning, but
Neelam (44:03)
Mm-hmm.
Silvan (44:05)
same rule.
Declan (44:25)
might just be the fact that he has no one to talk to. So being able to establish a really strong therapeutic relationship with him where trust is built, he feels completely safe, there's no judgment, there is that unconditional positive regard ⁓ and that he is able to freely explore his thoughts and his feelings and voice them to somebody for probably the first time. I think he would massively benefit from a real focused version of that.
Neelam (44:41)
Mm-hmm.
Declan (44:55)
of a humanistic approach, yeah. I think that would be really, really good for him.
Neelam (45:02)
Yeah, I agree again. Sorry, like we should be coming up with different ideas. I think you're dead on like, yeah, humanistic person centered counseling, basically with like a really Rogerian approach. think that exactly like you said, like Scott, as we've seen as someone who can say what's on his mind, even if he can't connect to that to what's going on underneath, he like, again, he's a yapper.
Declan (45:06)
We're sharing a brain cell.
Mm-hmm.
Neelam (45:27)
and to have that held and to have that heard in a really person-centred, person-centred way, yeah.
Declan (45:28)
yeah.
Silvan (45:35)
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I didn't actually think of that. That's why I was so stumped when it came to Scott. so, Neelam, we're to ask you about Kip.
Neelam (45:44)
Mmm.
Silvan (45:46)
What are your thoughts on Kip? Does he need therapy?
Neelam (45:50)
like not as he wanted it. And to be honest, I know you said to pick a specific approach, but I don't think we've seen enough of Kip, to be honest, to give us much of a direction, but honestly something a bit more integrative. So something really exploratory to see what is bubbling underneath for him and to have a bit of flexibility about where that might go.
Declan (45:53)
Yeah.
Neelam (46:15)
He might just need a space, a space of his own to talk about the things that are going on for him. And I think using an integrative approach allows for that.
Declan (46:23)
Yeah, I like that idea. Yeah. It gives you plenty of options to sort of address them. I'm integrative, so I am biased. ⁓
Neelam (46:34)
Same.
Silvan (46:37)
And so do you know who I would be wanting to call after a therapy session? Like I would be calling Elena. She would be at the end of the phone. I'd be like, this is what the therapist said. And I don't know about this. And I'm never going back. And then I'm going back two seconds later. She would be the one person that I want to be my sounding board.
Neelam (46:56)
Mm-hmm.
Totally.
Declan (47:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, she would tell you exactly what she thinks in the most direct, the nicest, directest way that she possibly can. Yeah.
Silvan (47:05)
She would be the one to- Yeah, exactly.
Neelam (47:10)
Yeah.
Silvan (47:10)
I think she would be the one telling you to go to therapy in the first place.
Neelam (47:13)
Yeah.
Declan (47:14)
yeah, yeah.
Neelam (47:15)
She'd the one walking you to the door when you're too scared to go the first time and being like, all right, I'll meet you here in an hour with a coffee. You know, she is a good friend and she does, but she does everything that a good friend needs to be. She's kind when she needs to be kind and she's honest when she needs to be honest. yeah, I love Elena. Yeah.
Declan (47:21)
Isn't it fair? Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she has empathy as well. Like she
is understanding. Like whenever she was having that discussion with Scott about Kip, like she expressed that she understood as well what Scott's going through. Like you deserve sunlight as well. That moment of just telling him that, you you deserve better as well. Like I'm not just doing this for Kip. I'm doing it because you both deserve to be happy. And that's, I think, was a really beautiful character moment for her as well.
Neelam (47:37)
Mm.
Hmm. Hmm.
Silvan (47:58)
Yeah.
I think what I've loved about having this conversation with both of you specifically is we're all psychology nerds, let's be honest. And this is a conversation that I've been wanting to have for such a long time to be able to really go deep and into the layers
And specifically having you on the episode, Neelam has been such a great sort of insight into some of the other modalities and you brought such a different perspective than me and Declan usually have and bounce off each other. So thank you so much for joining us.
Declan (48:29)
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Neelam (48:29)
No, honestly.
Thank you so much for having me. And I think as well, was, I was conscious of coming on here and I do consider myself an integrative therapist and I'm not like very hot and on models and research like enough to my practice, but it's not something that I'm spouting off. I'm very open and just willing to discuss things. So I hope that I don't know. I've come with my knowledge of my experience, but also just as someone who loves to yap.
and loves to be exploratory. Loves to be exploratory when thinking about these things. I think psychology is, it gives us that and we should use it.
Declan (49:00)
Okay.
Yeah, 100%.
Well folks that's us wrapping up now. I hope you enjoyed this episode, we had a great time. In fact we wouldn't shut up so it had to be made into two parts. Let us know what you thought about anything that we discussed in this episode or previous episode. there things that sort of struck you and made you think about a certain element of your life or were there experiences that
you witnessed in a show that you really relate it back to, just leave it all in the comments, you know, we love to interact with you guys. And obviously like, share, you know, get it out there and we'll see you next time for whatever else it is we're going to cook up.