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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ In this episode, I speak with Moe Carrick – workplace culture expert, TEDx speaker, and mother of four – about the deep, often unspoken pressures that shape our identities at work and at home. We talk about the myth of the perfect mother, the legacy of the provider-father, and the quiet courage it takes to say, “What I’m doing is enough.” Moe shares a beautifully layered story about a gingerbread house (yes, really!) and how that moment became a metaphor for ...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
In this episode, I speak with Moe Carrick – workplace culture expert, TEDx speaker, and mother of four – about the deep, often unspoken pressures that shape our identities at work and at home.
We talk about the myth of the perfect mother, the legacy of the provider-father, and the quiet courage it takes to say, “What I’m doing is enough.” Moe shares a beautifully layered story about a gingerbread house (yes, really!) and how that moment became a metaphor for the deeper journey of letting go of perfection.
We explore the ripple effects of shame, identity, ambition and care – and how the stories we’ve inherited can limit us unless we consciously choose another way. This conversation is full of warmth, honesty and insight, and left me reflecting deeply on how we show up for ourselves, and for one another, in work and in life.
PODCAST EPISODES YOU MAY WISH TO LISTEN TO NEXT:
CONNECT WITH MOE
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moecarrick/
Website: https://moementum.com/
Moe’s latest book: https://moementum.com/when-work-is-good/
***
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Speaker 1: occasionally on the
podcast we delve into the world
of work, seeing how the kind of
deep reflections and wisdom that
we explore here can influence
and change not only how we work
but the workplaces themselves.
Welcome to the henny flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self-awareness with profound
self-compassion.
I'm Henny, I write, coach and
speak about how exploring our
inner world can transform how we
experience our outer world, all
founded on a bedrock of
self-love.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
Settle in and listen and see
where the episode takes you.
So there's been two or three
episodes recently in the last
couple of series.
There was one around empathy
and transformation with Pamela
Windle, where we looked at
navigating menopause in the
workplace, so that was season 14
, episode 6.
We also looked at burnout and
self-compassion with Dr Danielle
de la Mar, and that was also
season 14, episode 3.
And, of course, back in season
13, episode 9, we looked at
debunking myths the myths around
returning to work and the
gender pay gap, with the lovely
Amelia Miller from Ivy.
So if you've been listening for
a while, you'll know something
of my own background as a
working parent in some highly
stressful and very demanding
senior roles, and that means you
might understand why my guest
today piqued my interest.
So Mo Carrick is an
internationally respected
pioneer in the study and the
practice of workplace culture,
which is something that I used
to work in a lot back in my
corporate days looking at how we
could create culture change in
organizations.
Mo also has some developed some
award-winning frameworks which
are used by Nike and Nintendo.
So she's got the, the
credentials, the evidence that
she knows what she's talking
about, and she's also completed
three TEDx talks, which is I'm
going to confess, here is
something on my bucket list
actually to do one of those, so
I'm just putting that out into
the universe.
And, according to Glennon Doyle
, she of we Can Do Hard Things,
mo Carrick is helping to change
the toxic paradigm of the
mothering myth at work.
Now, that's a pretty big
description, it's a pretty big
introduction, and I am really
looking forward to speaking with
Mo, partly because there is a
story that I hope she's going to
share and in fact, I may ask
her to to share it right at the
top of the of the conversation,
um, where she talks about
building an ambitious
gingerbread house that ended up
collapsing and, as I say that, I
wonder if there's a metaphor in
there.
That was part of how she became
the expert that she is.
So we'll just give Mo a few
minutes to join us and I look
forward to diving into this
conversation with her and with
you.
So, mo, how delicious, how
delightful to have you here.
I know it's taken us a couple
of goes to actually make this
happen, so it feels even better
that we're both together.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for
your persistence, and it's just
delightful to be here with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wonderful.
So I have given a little bit of
an intro, I've shared a little
bit about your background and
the fact that you are a thrice
TEDx speaker, and I did say I am
putting out into the universe,
that is one of my little things.
I've got a little list of like
something I'd like to do, so, um
, so I I really honor that, um,
but one of the things that I
shared is that you have a story
about making a gingerbread house
a very fancy gingerbread house,
as far as I can tell, and it
really felt to me that there was
such a metaphor in there that
might have informed part of how
you've ended up doing what
you're doing.
So I would, maybe slightly
counterintuitively, I'd really
love to kind of dive into that
story and then see where that
takes us.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love
that you like caught that story
and and are remembering it,
because, yes, it is a story that
you know stands with me, and I
think it's a story that's
particularly connected to my
sense of myself and my role as a
mother.
I have three grown children and
a grown stepson, and when they
were little I was a working mom
and I, my income was, was
primary in my family and I was.
My kids were out of school
where I was one of three working
moms back then.
The rest of them were all
stayed home, and this was in the
nineties.
That would seem to be a trend
at that time.
It isn't so much a trend now,
for all the obvious economic
reasons.
But, um, I so I was a busy
consultant, I was, uh, trying to
be a good mom and, um, I had
also a legacy.
My father was a creative.
So there's, there's for you,
henny, there's like multiple
layers here, I'm sure, for
thebread House, because my dad
was an architect, he was also an
artist and he was very poor.
He was an architect at a time
when, you know, he graduated
from Harvard School of Design.
He was a architecture really
dipped and he kind of had
struggled to recover.
You know, his equilibrium
financially as an architect, but
he was creative in everything
he did, and so one of the things
that he did for Christmas for
several years in a row for us
was because he didn't really
have much money to buy us things
is he would make us gingerbread
houses, and there were three of
us.
My parents were divorced so he
always had to put these
gingerbread houses in his car.
My dad always drove a sports
car so we'd have, like the
Porsche with the, you know, all
the gingerbread houses in the
back and they and there would be
one for each kid.
That was sort of unique.
A log cabin, frank Lloyd Wright
house, like I mean.
You know, these were
extraordinary gingerbread houses
.
He was not a baker but he was a
good architect and one of them
that I got was a gummy bear
cathedral and it was like a tall
house.
It had stained glass windows
and it had little pews inside
with all these little gummy
bears sitting in church.
Such an expression of love Mo
in church.
Speaker 1: It was just beautiful
, such an expression of love Mo.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's
honestly the feeling inside me
as I think about your father
there making these as a language
of love.
Great, it was incredible.
And my father was in recovery.
My dad got sober from his
alcoholism when I was six, and
so these gingerbread houses
happened after that and he was
still, you know, sorting his
life and and it was just
beautiful.
Like you, like you're feeling
like there were these evocative
memories.
And so my kids I had my kids and
I was wanting to we were asked
to bring a gingerbread house for
one of my son's kindergarten or
whatever, and I had this idea
like, oh my gosh, now by then my
father had died and I thought I
can do this, like I can keep
this legacy.
Yes, I'm not an architect, but
maybe I can do it.
So I decided to make this
gingerbread house and because
this school where my kids were
at was a private school, there
was a high volunteer requirement
and there was always a.
I always felt a sense of like
I'm the working mother, I'm not
as present, I'm not reading in
the classroom every week, I'm
not, I can't go on every field
trip.
So I had some guilt and
probably shame about not being a
good enough mother in that way.
So I went all out on this
gingerbread house and we spent
days.
You know, I spent days like
getting it just so, and it
actually looked really cool.
My kids were like minimally
involved and we and I had it all
ready and it was supposed to go
to school the next day.
It was probably like I don't
know two feet high and I
remember going to bed after one
in the morning being like, oh,
this is going to be so fun, like
to showcase this beautiful
gingerbread house.
And when I woke up in the
morning the cats had got at it
or gravity had got at it or
something.
But the whole thing collapsed,
fallen in, which made the walls
go out.
The gummy bears were dead.
You know, it was horrible and I
was crushed.
I was like, oh my gosh, you
know I'm here, I am, I'm a
failure as a mother.
Again, my little boy woke up and
cried the gingerbread cathedral
.
But my, my kid's dad came out
and he looked at it.
It was like huh bummer, you
know, didn't really hit him
quite as emotionally and he said
why don't we just go to Safeway
and buy one?
And I was like, what are you
talking about?
He said they're selling them
right now.
They're $9.99.
They're already made.
It's fine, like we have to
leave for school in 10 minutes
or whatever, and I remember
thinking what a bad idea that
was, but then I was like I don't
have any other option.
Speaker 1: We got to do that, so
I went and got the gingerbread
house went to school, like go in
to the class and there wouldn't
you know, there's like eight of
these safe way gingerbread
houses from these other perfect
parents who don't have all the
the weight of that story,
apparently.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's exactly
yeah yes, in my mind, these
mothers who have all this time,
their stay at home, they don't
have to work like they're going
to Safeway too and buying the
thing.
And then there were also some
that were handmade, that the
kids had clearly done.
There were some that you know
were a little bit fancier, but
there were none that were quite
like the gingerbread cathedral.
But what I what hit me about
that moment was there is no
perfection and it's good enough,
whatever.
The feeling.
I remember from that day and I
really do credit my kid's dad
for helping with this was like
whatever it is you've got when
you show up, it's enough, it's
enough.
And if what you have is the
Safeway Gingerbread House, then
that's what you have, it's
enough.
And that's sort of how I try to
live my life and how I often
find that I work with clients
and that I parent and that I
partner.
And yet we all get really
caught up, don't we?
In the hustle of it's not good
enough, it has to be somehow
better, it has to be the best,
it has to be the most creative
or the most influential.
So there was that side of a
lesson for me.
But the other thing, henny,
that struck me is that I've been
thinking about this a lot
lately is it gave me even more
reverence for the makers?
Because I, I, my dad was a
maker and he and I, I am.
I am a maker.
I've come to think of myself as
a maker in my business, but I'm
not a maker in the traditional
way.
Speaker 1: My mother was a maker
.
Speaker 2: She was a knitter and
an artisan, you know in so many
ways, and I always thought I'm
not a maker, I'm not a maker, I
don't.
But makers are really powerful
people and when they make
something, it's for a whole host
of reasons that benefit the
world.
And so for me it was also like,
yeah, okay, so you did make
that gingerbread and didn't work
out, but there is something
really sacred about what the
makers do, the people who me
because I too, when my son was
very young, was a working-
mother.
Speaker 1: I remember walking
into the playground on his first
day of school and there was me
and two other women in suits,
three working mums.
So they're kind of like and
that was in the early 2000s Now
whether whether there were only
three of us who were working
there or it just looked like
that on that day I definitely
felt this, this sense of these
other women here are better
mothers than me, and I also had
a kind of sense of like, well,
what's their perception of me
and what's my perception of them
, and blah blah.
So I'd really love to kind of
come back to that in a moment.
But but this idea of the
enoughness, like recognizing
that maybe it was your ambition,
maybe it was part of the thing
that actually made you really
good at work, was also part of
the thing that led to you
wanting to create such a
beautiful, ambitious project,
but to then be able to pick that
story up and transform it into
ah, whatever I do is okay,
whatever I do is enough, because
Whatever I do is enough,
because actually it's just about
showing up, isn't it?
And that really is what
mothering, I think, or parenting
so much of it, really boils
down to that.
So how, how does that?
How does that story play into
this beautiful phrase that you
use around the mothering myth?
Talk to us a little bit about
that and how you define what
that is.
Speaker 2: Well, it's
interesting what you're saying
and I just feel for you in going
to the playground too right,
it's interesting what you're
saying and I just feel for you
in the in going to the
playground too, right.
And so I think for me, the
mothering myth is the stories
that we've been is is is that
there's a lot of mythology that
we've inherited as stories about
mothering being something that
is so precious and so magical
that it's actually unattainable
to do it perfectly, and I think
it's all caught up in, actually,
religion, in Christianity in
particular, in our historical
notions of what the role of
mothers are in the world,
probably in multiple religions,
not only in Christianity, but
it's the one I'm perhaps the
most familiar with, not only in
Christianity, but it's the one
I'm perhaps the most familiar
with around.
Mothering is sacred, which I
believe.
Mothering is sacred, but I also
believe that fathering is
sacred, but it is not treated
that way, in the same way, and
so I think there's a risk, when
we make something sacred, where
it becomes not for mere mortals.
It becomes something that is on
a pedestal that we worship.
But that isn't real, and it
reminds me of so many other
myths related to women in
particular that are so harmful.
I've been recently listening to
a podcast about Marilyn Monroe
and I have been thinking about
the myth of what you know, what
she represented to society and
what.
How many myths there were
around.
What is a sexual being?
What is a beautiful woman, what
, what, what do they do?
What do they not do you know?
And I think the same thing
happens in this mothering myth,
and I think how it plays out is
that for many women it leaves
them feeling inadequate because
they can't reach the myth they
are mere mortals, and so they
end up feeling less than now.
I would add, henny, that I've
noticed in my interviews and in
my partnerships with women of
all different types that the
mothering myth, guilt and shame
right, feels more profound for
white women than it does for
women of color, and I don't I
can't speak to that.
I'm sure that women of color
have their own demons around
guilt and shame, but I have felt
that white women in particular
in my world are the ones who
seem to so deeply internalize
this feeling that they have to
be it all in order to care for
them, because she's the only one
that can do it like.
We either have that or we are
contributing to the world in
other ways and feeling guilty
because we're not that.
Speaker 1: I think there's also
something here as well, mo,
about.
I suspect that that myth isn't
only challenging, difficult,
maybe, um, I was going to say
dangerous actually that was the
word that that came up I mean, I
think in terms of like identity
it probably is, and there is a
facet of that which is a little
bit um, um, risky, um, that I
don't.
I suspect that it it's not um,
uh, purely that way for women
who have had children, because
that myth of the mother, if, for
whatever reason, you have
chosen not to have children, or
biologically it's not available
to you, or illness has meant
that it's not been possible for
you, or life circumstances have
colluded to mean that it's just
not been able, you've just not
been able to, um, you know to,
to participate in that um
experience.
That also is really, really
challenging.
So I, I suspect this you know
this sort of concept, just sort
of, you know, getting inside
this idea.
You know this concept of the
mothering myth as the kind of
sacred on the pedestal.
It's divisive in many ways and,
like anything which is that is
divisive, it obviously kind of
separates out people so that
everyone ends up feeling
isolated and like they're not
doing it right.
And how could I possibly attain
that?
I love that.
Speaker 2: I love what you're
saying.
I think it's really true.
It sort of makes it become,
with a capital T, the most
important thing that a woman can
do, which is, for me, being a
mother has been hugely
significant in my life and it
probably is the most important
thing.
But there are other things
women do, including you and I,
that also matter hugely, and if
someone is choosing or is not
able to have children, that
doesn't make them not able to
contribute in the world in ways
that really really matter.
So I love what you're saying
about how it can divide us.
It also puts this inordinate
pressure, I think, on mothers or
people who do choose or end up
having mothers.
It puts an inordinate amount of
pressure to attach themselves
to the identity of their
children, which is like, if
their children are successful,
then they are successful, and
children struggle as adults and
as young children for all
reasons that are all related to
themselves.
It's not only about the mother.
So, yeah, there's lots of
places where it, where the myth
itself, can divide us and can
harm us.
Speaker 1: I remember there was
a book round about the time when
I was pregnant with my son, so
he's just turned 24.
So a little while ago now, and
I think, pregnant with my son,
so he's just turned 24.
So a little while ago now, and
I think things have changed to a
degree.
But there was a book that came
out which was I Don't Know how
she Does, it was the title and
it was essentially this kind of
like you can have it all you
know, you can be the phenomenal
working mom and I think also oh,
her name's just gone out of my
head but the Facebook.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, lean In
Sheryl Sandberg.
Speaker 1: That's it Lean In.
And then she actually retracted
much of that, didn't she, I
think, where she just said I
don't know what I was doing.
I mean, she had a live-in nanny
several live-in nannies, as far
as I could gather, you know and
even she found that this
concept of the mothering myth
actually was not something that
she could comfortably hold
alongside her working persona.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I remember
when Lean In came out and it was
such a you know, it was such a
must read and I remember reading
it and kind of wanting to vomit
in my own mouth.
I was like, are you kidding?
This is what we're supposed to
do, you know.
We're supposed to lean in, like
how does that make sense?
And I think it leaves women
feeling really conflicted about
their desires, about their roles
in the world, because in
addition to parenting, there's
lots of other really important
problems that women want to
engage in.
And do we have to pick?
And also mothering doesn't last
for our whole lives, it's a
part of our lives.
I mean mean, there's just so
much complexity there, um, in in
our identities, that we have to
.
Speaker 1: I also just want to
sort of pick up as well on what
you said about the, the, this
sacred role of the father as
well, that you know and and I
would say there is the sacred
role of all the participants in
a child's life, in an
individual's life, and the
minute we start saying no, no,
no, all of the responsibility
for that sits on her shoulders
we actually deny the kind of
honoring honoring, I suppose, of
those other roles, the respect
due to those other roles and
also, potentially, the
responsibility that comes with
those other roles.
Um, yeah, I think that's really
.
I think it's really interesting
, mo.
It's sort of.
I also find this it's a little
bit sticky, it's a little bit
uncomfortable to talk about it,
which I love conversations like
that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes our
palms a little sweaty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's
like oh dear, I don't know, I
don't know what I'm going to say
kind of makes sense, or like
what do I really think about
this?
Or where is this thought going,
you know?
Because actually, maybe for
many of us it's so, it's so
ingrained that we don't even
consider that it could possibly
be anything other than yes, I
think.
Speaker 2: I think you're right.
We've inherited, you know,
generations, really, of
pressures, and it's so powerful.
I've been thinking a lot lately
about you know what's happening
with men and you might've seen
one of my talks about men and
women's role in healthy
masculinity and you know men
right now, here in 2025, we've
got a real problem on our hands
with our notions of masculinity
and what's happening with men
who are being predated upon with
social media.
We've got the highest suicide
rates, the highest opioid
addiction rates, the highest
victims and perpetrators.
Men are not doing that well,
and so we had this.
There's this paradox of this
rise in women's health and
women's well-being with feminism
, and I'm part of that and proud
of it.
And then we have now what we're
seeing is a real decline in how
well men are doing, and what I
often say is like, wherever we
go, we go together.
Whether we're hetero or cis,
whether we're trans or, you know
, whether we're gay or straight,
it doesn't matter, we still.
We have men in our lives,
people who identify as men, and
women who identify as women, who
must be in partnership, either
at work or at home, and so the
decline of one whole, you know,
half of the sky, so to speak, is
dangerous for all of us.
And one of the things that I see
play out and it's sort of a
micro example of this dynamic of
, I think what feels sticky is
what I see happening in the
world of work.
You know, for more than 10
years many companies have
granted paternity leave equal to
maternity leave, and yet men
still consistently don't take it
.
They never take it.
They don't take it.
Yeah, they don't take it.
And when you ask them, like what
I asked these young men, well
they're, they're worried about
the impact on their career, they
are not sure what is their role
and also the timing that it's
granted is often not the best
time for them to be out, because
it is a very maternal centric
time when a baby is first born,
you know.
So what happens if we, maybe we
give it to men when the, when
the kids, you know, hit 15?
, when they are really, you know
, needed?
I mean, they're needed all the
way along.
But I think for me it's been
really impact.
It's impactful to notice right
now, because I do believe, henny
, that unless we have, unless we
see men in particular, as
competent carers, we never will
reach real equity in the
workplace because somebody has
to take care of the children.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Somebody does.
Speaker 1: It's sparked a memory
from my own life and the way
that we by chance ended up
bringing up our son.
By chance ended up bringing up
our son.
So, um, when he was I you know
sort of nursing, ended up sort
of taking him into the office
before he was three months old
because I had to have meetings,
because I was so determined to
demonstrate that I could you
know, I could do this even
though I just had a baby.
Oh, it's just a baby, don't
worry about that.
You know, oh my goodness.
Oh, it's just a baby, don't
worry about that.
You know, oh my goodness.
Sent him to nursery at three
months.
Oh, the pain, the pain of doing
that.
And yet I felt I had no choice.
And then eventually, I think he
was two and I walked into my
CEO's office and I just stood
there like with my fists, like
almost like I was a toddler, and
I just said I just can't do it
anymore.
He went oh, okay, what is it?
What can't you do?
And I said I can't do this, I
need to have time with him.
And so he said okay, and so we
managed to work out a way that I
could work part time, which for
me was a really good balance.
And then, when our boy was seven
, my role exploded.
It was, you know, I got a
significant promotion, a lot
more responsibility, was going
to be commuting a fair distance,
and so my husband and I made
the choice that he would be the
primary carer and he created his
own work as a copywriter so he
could work from home.
But it just happened that for
us that's how it worked and I
just listening to you there, I
was just thinking, gosh,
wouldn't it be incredible if
actually that paternity leave
became available when a child is
still really needing and loving
that like one on one time with
their parent, and and also we
can see developmentally that
actually it's really healthy to
have a strong you know, a male
figure there at that time?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I
love what you're saying and what
a courageous conversation I'm
sure that you and your partner
had at that time around likeoken
.
That's really, really hard to
talk about, and one of them is
financial contribution and
another one is ambition, because
part of the inherited mothering
myth is the fathering myth,
which is you will provide.
You will provide.
In a capitalist society, that's
the value that men are
attributed to most often in
their family situation.
And so what happens, if?
What happens when a man is not
able to provide as much money as
the woman, which happens over
and over and over again and we
don't talk about it?
Speaker 1: I can remember hiding
.
Speaker 2: I remember when I was
married to my kid's dad.
I can remember there were
periods when he would be out of
work and we'd get together with
family and friends and they
would ask him you know what are
you doing?
And he would sort of bluff like
, oh I'm, you know I'm doing
that and I would.
We were basically lying about
what was real in our situation,
which was that I was making the
money to support us and it's
happened even in my second
marriage at times.
And what's that about?
What is that about?
And some of what it's about is
that women are given some
messaging that their economic
contribution is insignificant
compared to their maternal
contribution, which isn't real.
It isn't true If you have to
choose between feeding your
children.
We just saw we just saw that the
movie that just came out about
pamela and with pamela anderson
in it, called um the last show
girl, and it's really a
beautiful little movie and in it
she's talking about.
She's talking with her daughter,
who's now an adult, about the.
The daughter is accusing her of
leaving her in the car with a
game boy while she performed in
a in a las vegas show for two
hours, whatever.
And this is one moment when the
pamela anderson character said
the woman the like forgot the
woman whose name she's playing,
but she said I, I had to work, I
had to feed you and that was
the only way that I could do it,
but that's insignificant.
Like the fact that she was
providing a home and food for
that child is insignificant
compared to the harm of like you
left a child alone with a game
boy while you worked, which is a
decision that women have to
wrestle with over and over and
over again, given some of the
problems we have with childcare.
So for me that gets all tangled
up the mothering myth with the
stories we have about ambition
and who should be the earner and
what I know from my male
friends and my sons and my
husband and my husband, my
ex-husband.
What I know from them is that
they carry this burden of
financial providing in a way
that actually does not feel good
.
Speaker 1: It is so hard for men
to bust up against those
stories and navigate it.
Speaker 2: It is so hard for
them and it's hard for us
together to sort that out.
And, like you, I was able to do
part-time many different times
and I had a whole cacophony of
nannies and you know ways to
juggle it.
But without somebody taking
care of hearth and home and
taking care of children as well,
we can't really, you know,
continue to grow the human race,
you know.
So we have to sort of negotiate
this and we are in a capitalist
society, so somebody also needs
to make the money which is
really valuable and really feels
good.
And I it's only recently for me
that I've been able to step
into like my pride of that, like
oh I, you know, I, I got my
kids through college, I bought
this house, I, you know, I'm all
that, you know.
It's only recently that I've
been able to see that as success
.
I've usually hidden it.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh no, I mean
honestly and that.
And the thing is that what gets
in the way of that, that sense
of kind of pride and like, ok,
like I've, I've been doing a
good job, you know, not just a
sense of like you know, the work
, work, the paid work, but I've
been doing a good job is are
those stories that say, ah yeah,
but you kind of missed out on
stuff, or you, you didn't, you
know, you didn't sort of show up
in the way that that you think
that other people would have
done, or you, you know, you
didn't.
Just, um, uh, at one point I had
this kind of idea I left one of
my uh sort of big kind of
senior roles, um, and and
announced I was only going to
make jam and toffee and cakes
and I was going to be the
perfect mother, which, on
reflection, would have been the
most terrible form of mothering
imaginable.
You wouldn't have had any teeth
left.
But you know, I had this sort
of idea that if I did that then
I would be enough, then I would
be doing a good job.
But actually, like you, I can
now look back on all those years
and see, okay, we made the best
choices that were available to
us at the time, and that was a
we did a good job.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it mattered
you know it mattered to our
family structure.
I was walking this weekend.
So I am friends with my
ex-husband and we our kids are
all grown, but we still talk and
we connect and we were chatting
about some things and we were
talking about our.
You know our history and our
learning together.
We're both remarried and one of
our kids is the middle one is
getting married this summer, so
we're quite excited about that.
And we have also another one of
our sons has a partner who has
a 10 year old, so we've become
like instant grandparents of
this 10 year old.
So there's like a lot of new
things to sort of share on.
Now I also have my stepson has
a new baby, so my husband and I
are grandparents, so there's
just a lot of new life like
flourishing and that we're
connecting on.
But one of the things that we
had to laugh about was the way
that we, the way that we,
parented, was both the same and
different after the divorce, and
these stories have been.
I was telling him that these
stories have started to leak out
from my adult children about
how things were when they were
at dad's house and in particular
, it had to do with his cooking,
and but the stories, the way
they tell them, are stories of
joy.
They are not stories of like
you know we didn't get fed.
You know they got fed, but
apparently one of his habits was
he had a meal plan that he had
every week.
You know, then it was the same
food every day for every week.
Week over week was the same
thing, and they, you know, they
joke about, yeah, for 10 years,
like Tuesday was mac and cheese
night or you know whatever the
thing was.
And so we were having a laugh
about that and he was like
that's the only way I could cope
, like I didn't have any idea,
because when we divorced and
when we had shared custody, he
became a primary parent in a way
he never could.
When I was, when we were married
, because I took it all on, I
took on all the financial load
and I took on all the emotional
heavy lifting and I took it all
on.
There was no room for anyone
else to really parent.
I mean, it's hard for me to say
that, henny, because I'm like
what was I thinking?
What story was I telling myself
about how I needed to do that?
And so when we divorced and we
had shared custody.
All of a sudden I now had weeks
when I could actually indulge my
career and make even more money
to help support us all.
And also he got to do things
like deal with snarly hair and
pick out clothes and try to get
a two-year-old to put her tights
on no, not two, she was six,
you know to put her tights on
and deal with a kid who's
plagiarized at school, like all
of that.
Now he had to be front and
center and it changed him and it
changed me, because and it was
good for our kids, because they
got to see dad as primary parent
and they got to see me as a
primary income provider, you
know.
Speaker 1: So much wisdom in
there.
I think, mo, about the
significance.
It's definitely something that
comes up when I'm working
sometimes with clients, where,
actually, when we are in a
position, whether it is
conferred on us through society
society, our culture, our family
system and we're taking on all
of that responsibility, or our
gender, we're taking on all of
that responsibility.
Um, there is also choice in
there to hold on to all of that
responsibility and to keep
holding on to it.
Now, that choice for me it
often comes from a place of,
like desperately trying to
create control in order to feel
safe in the world, like it's all
a bit too much and therefore I
need to cling to it even tighter
.
But there is actually this
beautiful opportunity here of
being able to hand over some of
this responsibility.
And I think in our story, a bit
like in yours, something
happened where I just, I just
couldn't do it.
You know I was commuting four
hours a day and you know some
know wasn't it?
You know, even, like you know,
was missing, like the last train
home, and had to stay in a
hotel.
You know all that sort of thing
.
I had to trust Anton to to
parent and and that releasing
then creates the opportunity for
the other person to do it their
way.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, to do it
their way, and also to honor the
things that you were providing
for the family by what you were
doing, the hardships you were
enduring, what you were doing,
the hardships you know you were
enduring.
And and I see this as you know,
you're probably facing this too
, honey, with your son, who's
now 24, because our kids are
similar my youngest is 23.
My oldest is 37.
And what I'm watching is them
navigating this now and I'm
watching them internalize and
think through what is it that
I'm going to do as couples and,
as you know, with their partners
and on their own.
What is the identity that's
connected to earning, what is
the identity that's connected to
home and hearth and parenting
in some instances, and how are
they going to balance that?
And one of the things that I've
noticed is that without these
kinds of discussions, it's
really easy for patterns to get
set that are quite destructive.
And so an example, and it's
interesting, so interesting,
talking to you, because it
sounds like you and I both had
the experience of finding
ourselves as the primary earner,
like I never thought that would
be the case for me.
I'm not a rocket scientist or
anything.
I'm a consultant and a coach,
but somehow and I worked in
nonprofit for years and somehow
over time, my earning capacity,
you know, increased and what I'm
noticing right now is that for
young men and women, they can
make decisions really young that
can impact them with their
earning potential.
And one of the things that I
talk to some of the young women
I know in my family and outside
the family is like be thoughtful
about that in terms of if
you're the woman in the
partnership and if your husband
has more earning power.
That may not always be the case
.
So don't think of your own work
as always meaning that you're
going to be the low earner,
because it's important that we
have some parity or some equity
around the way the earning
contributes to the family's
wellbeing.
And I think we've lived.
I think part of the myth of
motherhood and the myth of the
father who provides and the
mother who stays home and takes
care of everybody and everything
is that it creates terrible
inequity around earning
potential.
And then we have marriages end
and often she is financially
compromised significantly.
And then we have marriages end
and often she is financially
compromised significantly and
and he may not be connected, you
know well, to the family, which
creates a lots of host of
problems.
So I think it's brave and and
important to have these
conversations all the way along
you know, like you and your
partner have, and and it's not
easy, it is palm sweaty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is.
And I think I think just
talking about finances, talking
about money, you know money is
it's interesting actually
because that is a theme that
often again sort of comes up
when I'm working with clients
because there is, it is such a
powerful energy.
Is it is such a powerful energy
and and there are so many
stories attached to it and
actually understanding what is
our own relationship to how we
feel about money, to how we
relate to the concept of how
other people are around money,
you know, like all of those
things, if we don't really make
sense of that I think it's such
a beautiful point you're making
about you know when we're kind
of, you know early days of our
nascent, you know relationships,
if we don't spend that bit of
time together when things are
easier, hopefully, because maybe
we don't have so many
responsibilities, and you know,
therefore, you know, in that
there's early days of a couple
if you don't spend that time
really being clear with each
other about where the equity
sits and really being clear with
each other about, um, the value
that everybody is bringing into
the relationship.
And you know, I think, well, I
think doing that can resolve
problems further down the line.
I really do?
I think it's, and it is
difficult.
It is hard to have open
conversations about things that
are palm sweaty.
You know it is.
Speaker 2: It is really hard and
that I was just this morning.
I was just talking to my
husband.
So he, my husband, is 67.
He's of retirement age and he
just recently started taking his
retirement.
He was for many years
self-employed we're in the same
field and then he worked for an
organization internally as chief
consulting officer for years.
When that ended, he hung up his
own shingle.
But he's in the diversity,
equity and inclusion space which
right now, in this binary
political world we're living in,
is almost a dead market right,
tragically, for a whole host of
reasons here in the US.
And so he's really looking at
like what is it that he's going
to do and what is what?
Does it mean?
He wants to contribute.
He has so much to contribute in
the world.
So this morning we were talking
about how all that contribution
can still happen, but it may be
unpaid.
And then there's does he want
to still be paid and what does
that look like?
And one of the things that I've
been thinking about and we need
to have another conversation is
similar to what you're saying
with Anton is there's actually
at my I'm a bit younger than him
and I really feel like I could
use him taking over even more of
our home.
It's just the two of us now but
, there's still a lot to be done
.
You know there's a lot to be
done for our lives, for planning
for our future, for financial
management, for the pets, for
all the things for feeding and
caring for me, for you exactly,
and I'm really sitting with like
that is probably one of the
conversations in our future
around what if we shift these
roles so that actually the need
for you to generate income right
now goes away?
It's not actually a real need,
it's a need for his identity and
and what we both need is for my
firm to continue to grow and be
successful.
One of my kids works in the
company.
We have employees like that.
You know it needs to.
We want that to thrive.
That's our biggest kind of
value added thing next to our
home for the long term.
But but I can tell already that
that there's a lot to that.
That conversation between us.
It's not just something that we
do for two minutes.
It's like a deep robot because
it's connected to identity.
Speaker 1: I think there's
something here about really
seeing the worth.
That that's what I'm hearing,
and and I think that is kind of
the thread actually through
through everything back to your
story about the gingerbread
house, and it's enough.
You know, seeing the worth
inside the worth was that effort
, that beautiful effort that you
put into it.
That was enough, you know.
And and then bringing the, the,
the house from, uh, safeway, you
know, that was enough yes and
and here you know, recognizing
maybe for your husband that you
know caring for you might be
enough, right, absolutely, and
it's what we need, like as an
ecosystem.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that.
Free coaching.
I love it.
I love it and, and you know, we
, we can't with these things
like the motherhood myth, like
the pressure on men to be
providers.
We, so much of this is like
beyond our conscious knowing.
We're just an individual
binging about in our world.
We don't know of this is like
beyond our conscious knowing.
We're just an individual
binging about in our world.
We don't know that this is at
play the stories of our
ancestors, the traumas of our
own families and of society at
large that somehow play
themselves out in what it is
we're trying to do with this one
precious life we have.
You know, and I I don't think
we have to take all that on, but
I think it can be helpful.
It's helpful for me to
sometimes remember there's
something else at play here.
There's more, whether it's
epigenetics or societal myths,
that is impacting and driving my
behavior.
And if I just know that and can
say, okay, so let me just pause
and think about that, to try to
really center on what is it
then that I really want to
choose, you know now, with my
partner or my family and my
community?
Speaker 1: the influences on our
lives.
As you know, they're threads
and and you know when those
threads are beautifully aligned.
It's this glorious tapestry you
know we talk about.
You know the, the tapestry of
life.
The challenge is that for most
of us, those threads, at certain
times in our life, just feel
like a great big knotty bundle
and it's really hard to see.
Well, what's the thing that's
actually constraining me, you
know?
Is it the story that I've
picked up from the female line
in my family system?
Is it my culture?
Is it, um, my identity that
I've somehow adopted, about what
a good mother looks like, or
what a good working, uh, mother
looks like, or what a good, you
know, woman or person looks like
?
You know these things that
they've and actually what we're.
So often I find, you know, we
use the, the concept of these
sacred roles, well, with sacred
pause is to to stop and as you
say, to take a breath and go
hang on a minute.
Well, what might be entangling
me right now and even if we
can't see it, even if the
naughty mess is, is just a bit
too naughty for us to untangle
on our own.
At least we can recognize it's
there and we can go okay.
Okay.
So there's stuff at play here.
It's it's not all my fault,
it's not, it's not me being a
bad person.
There is that, there are
influences here that that are
informing the way that I'm
feeling about this and and I
have some choice here too.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that is
so vital, remembering that it is
, and I think it is so vital to
recognize our own choice and I
think when we do that, it
reduces anxiety, doesn't it?
And you know, we're living,
certainly, in an age of anxiety.
I see this in young people and
old people too, right, but I
think, young people especially,
it can be so hard to look out at
the world.
I was just visiting with my
daughter, who's 23 and
re-engaging in her own
educational experience after
working through COVID.
You know tough times for young
people and and I was thinking
about how she is really looking
out at the world and it's easy
to look out there and feel both
insignificant and also feel
anxious between climate change
and geopolitical forces, and
that it can just feel like why
bother?
Like it's all dark and scary,
and I think, where I'm seeing
her beautifully challenge
herself and grow is like no, but
there's these moments.
There's my friends, there's my,
you know, there's my job,
there's my people I'm meeting,
there's, um, there's all these
moments that are right here,
that are actually safe and
joyous and beautiful, and that
helps me get grounded.
I can choose to engage in those
things and reduce my own
anxiety, which is like so
empowering for all of us in an
age of anxiety, um, but it
really takes a lot of courage to
do that and it takes the
willingness to be seen as enough
as enough and to and and I
think just sort of picking up on
the thread that's been coming
through our conversation is the
willingness to have those more
difficult conversations, not
only with others, but perhaps
with ourselves as well.
Speaker 1: um and and also um.
Yeah, I really love what you
just said about your daughter,
you know, being being able to
see that there are these
beautiful things that are close
to us, and maybe that also comes
back to this sort of mothering
myth that is placed on top of
the pedestal.
It's incredibly hard to see the
stuff that's closer to us and
recognize okay, I'm doing, okay,
what I'm doing is enough.
Speaker 2: Is enough.
And it disconnects us too, I
guess and I know we're going to
push on our time, but I just
love talking with you.
It disconnects us from others.
So you know, as you were
talking about the threads and
the courage that it's required
to to notice and name them, and
I was thinking about another.
This is another parenting moment
for me that happened, which was
that after the divorce we were
at a concert for my daughter
made me think of her.
She was like eight or something
and she was.
She had been with her dad that
week and she was walking up to
the choir you know steps to sing
with her group and as she
walked up, I was, I became.
I had a wash of shame because
her clothes didn't match her
hair was.
She had really curly, has
really curly hair and her hair
it looked like a rat's nest, it
was like all over the place
sticking up.
You know she didn't match the
other kids, like her uniform was
not quite right and I was
sitting next to her dad, who had
her that week, and I had this
wash of shame and what the shame
was about was like oh I, my kid
, doesn't look well kept
compared to the others and
that's going to reflect badly on
me.
Like I felt the mothering myth,
I felt like, oh, I'm a failure.
But then the music cued and she
started singing and I'll never
forget her little face, like the
joy of her little face.
She just like ball like, just
began singing with this joy and
hope.
And they all did.
And I was thinking, and Mo in
my mind, all of a sudden I have
this insight it matters not a
hoot that her hair is messy and
or anything that her clothes
match.
And so at the end of the
concert I turned to her dad and
I said good job, you know,
because my kid had a very tender
head and she hated putting
herself on.
And he said, he looked at me,
he said thank you, can you teach
me how to French braid?
And also, how do you put tights
on a six-year-old who doesn't
want the tights on?
You know, and I was like, oh man
, we have those battles.
I have those battles with this
kid too.
Like this is challenging, and
it was a moment for me of like,
what is it that I'm getting
snagged by in my life?
That doesn't matter.
This kid is in joy and she's
happy, he's safe and she's well
loved and she got there on time
and she's singing and it's
beautiful.
Okay, her hair is hard to tame.
Speaker 1: That's because it's
really hard to tame and and, in
the grand scheme of things, what
will she remember?
She?
Will remember standing on that
step singing her heart out.
Speaker 2: Yes, no one, no one
ever is going to remember the
messy hair, and I think that
that's for me, it's like, that's
the part of identity that we
have.
That's the work of like what
matters about what we're doing
and who we are and what doesn't
matter at all we're doing and
who we are and what doesn't
matter at all and how can we
separate those things to to to
celebrate the things that really
last and that matter, and it's,
it's, um, it's good work if you
can find it.
Speaker 1: I I mean that feels
like such a a beautiful sort of
round up, such a beautiful place
to close.
But I I also just want to say,
mo, how gorgeous that you turned
to him and you said good job,
that, my darling.
That that's so beautiful
because it would have been very
easy to have held all of that
experience just inside you and
to not recognize what he
actually achieved to get your
daughter there on time even
worse.
Speaker 2: I could have shamed
him, yeah, which I'm sure I've
done that at times too.
I could have been like, how
could you have or not have her
tights matched like, and I think
for me it was an insight of
that is not the point, like, and
I know how hard it is to get
her out the door matching and
you know so good job.
And also it eased up my own
perfectionism, what I'm wasting
energy on, and so, yes, it is.
I felt good that I was able to
see him and back away from the
ledge of my own internalized
critic.
Speaker 1: I think so much of
this, I mean so all of my work
is founded in this, in how do we
build self-compassion and I
mentioned the word once while
we've been talking, but really
fundamentally that's what it's
all been about and this idea of
like being able to hold
ourselves, being able to hold
the stories that we're carrying,
the people who shared the
stories with us, you know, and
the people who are carrying
different stories, being able to
hold it all with compassion and
, to your point, kind of
recognizing well what really
matters and what doesn't.
And actually that's part of
being an adult, I think, really
the true, deep, wise adult.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and you're
so right.
And isn't it powerful when we
think about self-compassion,
that sometimes it requires us to
look a little bit from the
balcony, like going back to the
gingerbread story.
When I came home from work that
day, the gingerbread house was
still on the counter.
Right, it was falling apart on
the counter.
But what filled me when I came
into the house that day was
lovely memories of making the
thing and memories of my dad who
showed me first how to make the
thing, and my kids had all
bolted candy on the thing and we
had had days of fun in the
construction and the cat was
like licking the frosting on the
counter.
I was like even she is getting
something lovely out of this
thing.
But because now I had a reframe
of it, because I wasn't seeing
it as a thing I needed to do
perfectly, but instead it was a
series of experiences with
others that mattered, that had
joy and that I, that I actually
facilitated.
And so that's that, being able
to be on the balcony, even with
myself, with self-compassion,
opened up a lot of space for for
joy, and I think sometimes when
we're in it, we can't, we can't
tap into that self-compassion.
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful
and I I love it when a
conversation has the, the alpha
and omega of you know, the, the
full circle.
Coming back to your, to your
original story, there's
something very, very beautiful
about that, that wonderful
reframe that you had, um mo.
There is a question that I, I
always ask my, uh, my clients,
actually as part of you know,
before they start working with
me, but it's something I like to
ask my guests here too, and the
question is if bringing it
really really sort of closely to
you now, if this time in your
life was a chapter in your book
of life, if you saw it that way,
what would the chapter heading
be?
Speaker 2: oh, what a beautiful
question.
I think for me, the chapter of
this stage of my life would
probably be Well done.
Speaker 1: Well done.
Speaker 2: Mo, thank you.
Thanks for asking a good
question.
It makes me cry.
You're obviously very good at
what you do, but it's powerful
to tap into that.
Speaker 1: So thank you, yeah,
thank you, thank you for sharing
from such a deep place it's.
It's been an absolute honor to
talk to you and you know the
conversation has gone off in in
so many directions that I I had
no idea where we were going to
go and, like they're my favorite
um conversations with guests,
because it means that it's it's
been really, really heartfelt
and I've really loved it, and
thank you so much for joining me
oh, thank you for having me and
thanks for your great questions
and insights and and coaching.
Speaker 2: What a, what a, what
a beautiful um, a series of
offerings you're you're bringing
into the world.
Thank you All right.
So much love, thank you.