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Summary
In this episode, Phill and Adam discuss why you can't be both a B2B and B2C business. They emphasise the importance of focusing on a single specific customer persona and delivering value to that target market. They also highlight the need for a clear and compelling value proposition that clearly communicates what the business does and the value it provides. Additionally, they discuss the concept of high brand moments, which are the elements of a brand that add uniqueness and emotional appeal to a product or service.
Takeaways
- You can't be both a B2B and B2C business simultaneously.
- Focus on a specific customer persona and deliver value to that target market.
- Develop a clear and compelling value proposition that communicates what the business does and the value it provides.
- Create high brand moments to add uniqueness and emotional appeal to a product or service.
- Pick just one persona and build a brand strategy around it.
Creators & Guests
What is Cult Products?
Dive into the essentials of start-up success with Cult Products, hosted by Yaya's co-founders, Adam Yaya-Durrant and Phill Keaney-Bolland. This podcast delivers sharp insights on creating revolutionary products, radical branding, and attracting a loyal following of early adopters. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, each episode is packed with actionable advice and stories from those who've built successful businesses. Join Adam and Phill as they help you transform bold ideas into start-up success.
i was gonna say i thought that goes on a
little bit too long but it actually cuts i
keep thinking it has another bit to it but
no it's all right but is there a much
longer version?
I think there's a three and a half minute
version of that.
If that genre of music is the sort of
thing that you just like to listen to in
your spare time.
if you want to see us painfully sit
through three and a half music without
saying anything, that's also fine.
That's, yeah, okay.
Good feedback.
We'll see if we can cut it down a little
bit.
Welcome to episode three of our Colt
products podcast.
And we are still talking about brand and
we are still slightly worse for wear after
going to see the biscuit because we are
filming this episode right after episode
two.
My...
dog has moved to the other side of the
room now.
So I've got the sofa all to myself, ready
to get back into this.
Yeah, and so I also, because we just took
a quick break and I...
went to the loo and I remembered that bit
in I think it's Naked Gun where he goes he
just leaves his microphone on.
But also that bit in the Jinx when he just
goes to the loo and then he's like my god
I killed them all.
Do you remember that?
Yeah.
Trump as well.
And Gordon Brown, was that like a
microphone left on as well?
I am just gonna finish my banana though
that I also had during the break.
banana, shall I tee up the next question,
which is an interesting one and one that
we've got experience in both camps, so I
think it'd be quite cool to answer.
Can you be a B2B and a B2C?
No, let's move on, that's it.
You just can't.
I don't think you can.
And I don't think you should.
And I think also, especially if you're
starting a business, you shouldn't try and
do both things simultaneously.
I think it is really crucial that you
focus on a specific customer persona.
when you are in that early stage, you
figure out the things that you're doing
that are gonna change that person's life,
you figure out how to communicate to that
person, and you just focus on them.
And I think the difference between a B2C
person, Adam who's on Instagram, sees an
ad for something, goes in, buys it, great,
to Phil who's sat.
doing procurement or working in an office,
wants to have a conversation with the
sales team, wants a lot of customer
support afterwards, all of those kinds of
things, that sales journey is really,
really different.
And also, both are really hard.
So it's better to just focus on one thing
and do it really, really well than it is
to try and dilute across all those kinds
of things, in my opinion.
yeah, I definitely think we've had that a
lot, haven't we?
Like, when working with organizations and
they've kind of put out like five
different personas and some of them make a
humoured persona and others aren't and you
have to put a flag down because otherwise,
like, how are you pointing that?
You need to point the brand to someone.
and it can't be everyone really and it
can't like for everyone to and that's why
Persona identifying the users really
understanding like them.
their frustrations, emotional functional
needs, the other and then really like, can
I do that persona weighting?
I think it's really important and
narrowing it down to like, okay, look,
we've got even as three personas, we've
got this one is the main kind of persona
that the targeting, I think, can't stress
how important that is at the early stage
of brand because.
you have to be able to point it out to
someone.
You need to understand the brands that are
in that person's ecosystem, what they're
going to connect with to design a brand
that's going to be the appeal to their
senses really.
So simple as that.
And I think a lot of organisation makes
mistakes, so they want to correct this
thing.
We get that a lot in conversations where
they're like, it's a bit of a B2C and it's
also a bit of a B2B.
And it's like, it's not easy, but you do
have to channel it into something.
I'm tempted to say it's better to just
have one persona than it is to have
multiple personas at the early stages of a
startup.
I've definitely made the mistake in the
past of creating seven or eight different
personas and getting into the weeds of,
well, what's the procurement person going
to think about this?
And you know, you...
To an extent, you do need to know those
things and you do need to build for those
people, but not really from a brand
perspective so much.
But also, if you can just get one person
to really fall in love with your product
and drive that in their organization and
be the flag bearer for it and get other
people.
drag people on board, that's really how
that stuff kind of works in the early
days.
I think you need a champion and a sponsor
and I think that's the persona that you
actually need to create in order to do
that.
As far as sort of brands that kind of
become B2B and B2C later,
I think that's possible.
I think it is when you're in that kind of
mainstream position.
There are obviously, there are Microsoft
products that are aimed at individuals and
there are Microsoft products that are
aimed at businesses and that's one brand.
But again, back to what we said a couple
of weeks ago, you can't really just ape
the strategy of a massive, massive tech
company when you're a startup.
You kind of have to be a bit more focused.
there was a period of time where Apple
were offering servers and things like that
to businesses.
And it was a total disaster because they
just didn't have the support and things
that at the time it was kind of mainly a
Microsoft space, they were able to offer
businesses.
And so they couldn't attract customers and
the customers that they did attract found
a massive gap in service.
And I think that it's kind of,
in that DNA of Apple as a B2C company made
it really difficult for them to then be
kind of B2B as well.
However, lots of people use iPhones at
work, lots of people use iPads at work,
lots of people use Macs and all of those
kinds of things.
But I don't feel they would ever describe
themselves as a B2B business or their
brand as a B2B brand.
But it is possible to have a consumer
product that is so good that people end up
using it at work and to actually have
functions and features that are useful to
have at work.
It's the same with WhatsApp is a B2C
product, but lots of people communicate
with their colleagues on it.
That, I think, it is possible.
But in the early days of business, pick a
lane, stick to it, focus on doing one
thing really, really well.
If you try and build something for
everyone, you'll end up building something
for nobody.
Yeah.
And, and ultimately, B2B brands don't have
to be boring.
In fact, they have to not be boring.
And I think that's kind of like where,
like traditionally everyone's thought,
yeah, agencies probably didn't touch like
B2B brands because they were like, they're
a bit more complex, they're a bit more
harder to define.
And they feel they're probably just not as
cool or interesting.
And I think Phil and I have realized
that's all lies because B2B brands and
products can be an art.
interesting, they're more complicated,
they're more things you have to problem,
you have to solve, yes, but I think the
value of bringing that to life is
something that's really compelling and
super valuable for the user and for the
founders.
It just gives us a lot more pleasure and
joy and I think it's the harder the nut to
crack the more that we kind of like to
crack it, watch out to.
Yeah, I know what you're saying.
There is a bit of a misconception that if
it's a B2B brand, it's going to be less
interesting than a B2C brand.
And I don't think that is true.
I think there are lots of B2B brands that
are really, really, really creative and
compelling and have learned a lot.
I think that probably was true to an
extent.
But I think the lines have become fuzzy.
The big difference...
I suppose is there's a sort of empathy
thing that you have to have with a B2B
brand where you really have to understand
the specific challenges and problems that
you're trying to solve.
Where I think sometimes with B2C things it
can be a bit more like, well, you know,
this exists because it's fun or this, you
know, it's kind of more...
obvious on the surface level what it is
that the thing does and why someone should
buy it.
Whereas B2C is kind of like getting into
the weeds of the root of whatever problem
somebody has.
Yeah, definitely.
And then how that kind of brand trickles
into like the product.
I think when we first started doing brand
and product, like there was no kind of
real emphasis on branding in the product
space at all.
And it was kind of like, well, it's for
people that work.
So why make it cool?
Why make it an enjoyable experience?
But obviously, the more people are
interacting with stuff, they've got less
kind of patience for bad tech and bad
design.
So yeah, it's definitely something that.
shouldn't be overlooked and it's something
that we feel very proud of as a business
that we've gone down that route and can
make kind of those experiences for people
within businesses more enjoyable.
So yeah.
Cool.
We got great.
Yeah, yeah, there you go.
One persona too.
And one persona, we're putting that one
out there.
Just pick one.
Can we talk a little bit about value
propositions?
on your favorite subjects, aren't they?
favourite subject.
Let me just sort of articulate a probably
quite familiar problem.
You land on the website of a B2B business
and you find on there a bunch of stuff
about features, functionality that the
tech has.
case studies maybe and lots and lots of
pages under a section called product in
the nav bar about specifically what does
the platform do.
But after reading it, you're none the
wiser about what it actually does.
It seems to do either everything in the
world or a million different little
things.
And you're not super clear on actually who
is this for and why should I get it.
That's the kind of external facing
problem.
But also if you've ever worked for a
business where, you know, it does take
ages to do branding and marketing and
websites and all those kinds of things and
nobody is able to clearly articulate what
the business does, then your problem is as
a business you're not clear on what your
value proposition is and you haven't got
everybody to align and agree on.
that and I think that as basic as it
sounds knowing what your business does is
a thing that actually escapes a lot of
businesses.
can really jam on the brakes in terms of
growing that business, being able to sell
a product, being able to create a
compelling brand, being able to actually
create a product, knowing who your market
is, all of those kinds of things.
And when we talk about a value
proposition, what that means is you should
basically have a sentence that says, we
help these people,
to do this thing and to realise this value
by providing them with this thing.
And so you need to be clear on three
things there.
You need to be clear on who it is that
you're targeting.
And sometimes businesses have that.
You need to be clear on what you do.
Most of the time businesses know what
their product is and what the sort of
field that they operate within is.
But you also need to be super focused on
what's the value that people get from
using your technology.
and fewer businesses are very clear on
that.
And that's a real shame because that's
actually the headline.
That's actually the thing that people care
about when they're thinking about using
your product.
Don't really care so much how it works.
What I care about is what problem does it
solve?
And I think the kind of classic quote is,
you know, nobody really cares about your
product.
They just care about their problems.
And if you are super clear on that, then I
think the brand that you're able to create
is much, much more impactful.
it is the cornerstone as it is like the
foundations to everything
the value proposition and you know we've
been in businesses ourselves where they
haven't been able to do that I mean we've
had we used to have a ceo that used to
kind of stop people in the corridor and be
like what's like elevator pitch give it to
me and no one could give it to them
because it was like no no one got it it
was so it was kind of locked in his head
he could articulate what the proposition
was what value we've led to businesses but
no one else could and that kind of
trickled into all the decks and all the
like
content and all the sales people had
different views on it and it just creates
a real kind of mixed message within the
business and that's because it's just you
know it's in one person's head and not
kind of down somewhere and cemented and
everyone else's and how do you then
translate that across the business.
So yeah it is a huge problem and it's an
unbelievable amount of businesses that
we've worked with that can't answer.
those things that Phil just pointed out,
like unbelievable amount.
And that, I mean, that isn't a problem,
like that's why we've got tools and things
to help get those things, extract those
things from kind of generally like, you
know, C -suite people and get that into
something of substance and keep it really
simple, really defined and really clear
and have that as the thing that you go
back to.
You know, obviously you can change and it
will adapt, but really like that's as well
as having that thing that underpins
everything.
It's critical.
Yeah, I think more often than not, the
challenge with that is that you have a lot
of people who don't agree on what it is.
So they actually do have quite compelling
value propositions.
And there will be a couple of usually
sales -facing people who have their own
way of talking about something and it
works.
And they talk differently about...
what that value proposition is.
And when you get them in a room, they're
either too nice to say, well, we need to
have an argument about this, and we need
to decide on one of these things.
or they're not nice enough and they don't
kind of back down.
And then you end up with something
to cater to two quite different things.
And maybe in reality, you know, both of
them could work, but you just need to, you
need to sort of, you'd be better off
picking one than trying to merge them into
something really ineffectual and kind of
middle of the road.
And...
Yes, as you say, we use workshops and
things and that's a good way of forcing a
decision to an extent and getting that
alignment.
But I see it a lot where it kind of goes
on and on for such a long time, people get
worn down by it and then eventually the
thing that you can get people to agree on
is just so far removed from that real,
this is super specific, this is how we're
differentiating, this is how we're like
revolutionizing the market.
is the niche that we're going after, that
it really doesn't end up adding any value.
And because it's right at the core of
everything, everything downstream of that.
just ends up being as generic as the value
proposition.
It becomes really hard to train
salespeople, though salespeople can't
convert leads.
It becomes really hard to attract leads
because you can't put a message out that's
really compelling.
You don't know where to target and all of
those kinds of things.
It's the thing that everything hangs off
in a business.
It's also the thing when you're building a
product, if you are saying, I know who
this product is for, I know what value I'm
trying to deliver to them, you're able to
make much smarter decisions about what the
features and functionality of that should
be.
So for me, it's always the most critical
thing.
It's always really obvious when it's not
clear.
Within a second, you can tell, because you
go on a website, it should be the first
thing you get hit in the face with.
The headline on the home page, very, very
clearly, we're for these people.
We help them do this, and this is how.
Yeah.
If that isn't the first thing you see on a
website, I can probably describe for you
the internal politics of that organisation
around this stuff.
us quite nicely because I know why you're
so passionate about this because the
elephant in the room is that a lot of this
kind of rides comes from working in or
with consultancies, and defining
propositions within those consultancies,
especially ones that have a tech element
to their proposition and it becomes
quite...
bit of
Frankenstein of a proposition to try and,
and as you said, like that's the
experiences that we've had in those
positions are you talk to a tech person or
person that kind of runs that they have a
very clear idea about what that
proposition is.
You talk to a person who's a consultant,
obviously they've got a very different
view and it's created quite an interesting
mix.
And from the outset, it just becomes
jumbled on their website.
and that kind of external comms really.
Yeah, I think having worked for both
consultancies and tech businesses, what
value proposition means in both of those
spaces is quite different.
And actually...
let's take consultancies.
So there are different types of
consultancies out there.
There are consultancies that are a group
of very, very smart people who can kind of
drop in and solve almost any problem and
figure out, you know, what...
what the right way to do that is using a
toolkit of frameworks and skills that they
have, all of those kinds of things.
And that's kind of at one end of a
spectrum.
And then another end of a spectrum, we
have consultancies that come in and they
run a predefined process that they use at
every different business.
So if you think about that as a value
proposition, when you are saying, well, we
can do literally everything, we're just
super smart and we don't always do the
same thing, your value proposition is
gonna be probably quite high level and
hard to define to an extent because you're
gonna say, we help and you might know
there might be a niche within businesses.
It might be sales directors or...
sales directors in a specific sector or
something like that where you could say,
well, we help them.
Ideally, you would know what the value is,
but if you're doing all kinds of different
things, you are probably going to end up
in a space where it's like, well, we do
help them solve problems, and that's
really hard to pin down.
And then how do you help them?
Well, we help them with just a bunch of
really smart
by nature
vague.
And then at the other end of the spectrum
on consultancies, it's kind of much easier
to pin down, but...
Again, within the nature of consulting,
you can apply a methodology to lots of
different things.
The difference between that...
And tech is that tech basically solves
from a list of things.
Same functionality, it delivers basically
the same value.
Unless it's like super customizable stuff,
which is obviously a lot harder to scale,
it solves problems like, you know, we help
you to hire better people or we help you
to communicate more effectively or those
kinds of things.
It can't just be tossed into any old
random thing and then be expected to kind
of work some magic and do it.
way that people can.
So within consultancies, value proposition
looks different to tech.
Even between different consultancies,
there's different types of value
propositions that you can get there.
Where I think this becomes an issue is,
and this does happen a lot, is we get a
lot of...
people who start businesses that are
consultancies and then build tech.
And so then they become a consultancy with
a tech product and kind of powered by
technology.
And then it's kind of unclear what they
are.
So, you know, is it a tech business where
you need to go and have a conversation
with someone and say, look, we solve these
specific things?
Is it a consultancy where we can do
anything in the world and where, you know,
we have technology that supports that?
And how do you create a value proposition
for that?
And how do you sell that?
Because it's really different sales
process.
And you then end up being potentially
quite opportunity -led.
And somebody goes out and sells a
consulting project.
And it looks completely different to the
other one that somebody else sold.
And then you're kind of in that position
where you're like, what does this business
actually do?
And it's so difficult.
It's so difficult to know how to develop
the product.
It's so difficult to know whether you even
need to develop the product.
Or do you just keep adding more
consultants
this is.
What they actually mean by product as
well.
Like that's kind of quite a different
thing to like, you know, is a product just
essentially like the, well, it's the
spreadsheet or is it like a power BI
product or is that actually something that
they've built and it's kind of tested and
defined.
So I think there's also like a weird thing
there where it's, we're not having a
knockoff consultancy season.
Maybe, maybe we are a little bit, but, I
think that's also quite a funny one.
It's like, let's just shoot on this
product thing.
because that's the thing to do, but
actually what that kind of product is is a
bit questionable I guess.
No, I don't think we're having a knock at
consultancies.
I think there is something in their DNA
which makes it difficult for consultancies
to become tech businesses because the
people that typically work in those
environments just like solving open -ended
problems and that kind of reinventing
stuff a lot of the tech is a different
space, I think.
you think it will come full circle and
it'll just be like, hey look.
No frills here.
We're just a load of really smart people
and you can just chuck us in and that's
it.
Like there's no other kind of underlying
element here.
Methodology, we'll just figure it out as
we go along.
But just trust us, really smart people.
Cause I still think there is a market for
that and people do just want to buy like a
load of smart people to come in and sort
stuff out.
And essentially it's kind of, it's jargon
like it's, I guess diluted and got all
waffled and all this kind of stuff with
the, with other elements that are chumped
onto that proposition.
but essentially might just come back and
somebody's like look this is it we're just
20 really smart people and we can sort
sort your stuff out.
Yeah, I think that's fair enough.
If you're a very small consultancy, I
think that works.
And if you're a very big consultancy, I
think that works.
I think if you're somewhere in the middle,
it becomes a bit more difficult because
you're in that process of scaling and you
kind of need to have a bit more clarity on
what you're doing.
And lots of technology requires quite a
lot of consultancy to function.
Things like...
SAP and Salesforce and those kinds of
things.
I don't know how easy it is for somebody
to just pull them out of the box and start
using them.
They require a lot of customer success.
But...
they are implementing a technology product
and the consulting is there to implement
it effectively.
How do you even articulate kind of one
specific thing that they do?
So, you know, that's kind of fine.
And also so is being a consultancy that
really just goes in and
with you.
smart people and occasionally uses
technology to make those results more
impactful.
They're both fine.
But you have to know which one of those
things you are.
and you have to be able to clearly
articulate the value that you deliver and
they are very different things.
We're obviously in the space where we're
trying to talk about B2B tech businesses
and founders and those kinds of things.
I think what we're talking about, it
applies to those types of businesses much
more than it applies to consultancy
businesses.
And...
As I say, neither is inherently good or
bad, it's just you kind of have to know
which one you are if you're going to build
out a strategy that's going to make it
successful.
to.
Well, we're about to embark on another
tech business supported by consulting
soon.
So we can kind of feel you in how we get
on with that one.
But yeah, I totally agree.
And having both lived the painful
experiences of going through those
businesses and having to try and kind of
work out what their core proposition is
and actually kind of market that.
We've learned the hard way on that one.
So.
Yes.
Before we go, one question.
Adam, you talk a lot about these high
brand moments.
What exactly do you mean by that?
And also, I'm kind of curious, where did
you, is this something that you've come up
with yourself?
Is this something that you heard about?
Okay.
where the IP came from but it did stick so
it's obviously worked.
But I do really love it and I do think it
makes it in my head really easy to
understand.
And I think we touched upon it in the last
podcast and I'm going to be very, not to
try and overlap on that, but really
like...
A brand is created and then it's a pep
through into the product into the website
and in a product, especially in like the
B2B space, you're going to have like
functional elements.
And as I said before, like the product
needs to be highly functional and how to
use all those things at the kind of core
at its heart.
But it's really about how you can make
that come to life through the brand and
add that kind of layer of uniqueness
within
that kind of brings it to life.
And so if you've pictured it like this,
you've got two kind of
Size to a product you've got the kind of
low brand elements which are more the
function functionality usability stuff
stuff that you need to kind of do and
you've got the high -brand elements which
are like kind of showy bits and things
that are gonna bring the kind of more
emotional like against functional stuff so
and And they can be things like where you
just kind of ramping a bit more color you
ramp in a bit more like illustrations and
animations and micro animations and stuff
like that or just little transitions and
of things that are going to really appeal
to the more emotional side of people's
customer experience.
So, and I said before, like tone of voice
again is another thing, just these little
kind of peppers in which, which I can
refer to them as being like high brand
moments.
And I think from a more practical
position, like where they actually kind of
sit within an experience, like you'll find
those on like on boarding screens.
So where you've got a bit more real estate
to like add that stuff and bring in that
kind of high impact brand.
really like go to town there.
Logging screens, like loading screens,
there's little things that you can do
around complex, like very functional
product to still make it really
interesting and really unique.
And that's kind of things I get nerdly,
weirdly excited about because I like
trying to make something that's
functional.
And maybe some people would think it's a
little bit boring, come to life through
adding these elements of
brand because the products aren't boring
they just need that kind of a bit of
high brand moments to make them more fun
and
guess.
doing a
supply chain security, which as you can
imagine is a very, very complicated
technical space.
And it's powered by a open source product.
And we actually went with them to...
in Paris and stood on the stand, we had a
little avocado character plushie, because
the open source platform is called Quack,
and it was so cute.
It basically drove an unbelievable amount
of traffic to the stand, and we managed to
have a lot of good conversations with
potential customers and users, because
this character had kind of popped up.
And so then we decided to use the
character in the product and use the
little kind of avocado person as much as
possible on those screens that you've just
described.
So when people are doing something
functional, nobody wants a paperclip
popping up and asking, it looks like
you're trying to fix a vulnerability in a
software package.
But there are spaces where actually those
little kind of moments of fun.
When we went out and user tested it,
people were like, this is cool.
I really like this.
This is a break in the, every other tool I
use doesn't have an avocado with a face in
it.
But this one does.
cool when you do user test those things
and like we've user tested it before it
had those elements and seeing when you get
to those strings like their reactions
quite it's you know you've connected on
like a more emotional scale which I think
is really good and generally like
something like a you know this avocado is
an example but it just really softens up
the whole experience so it kind of gets
that balance it's not just completely
functional.
So yeah, I think it's a really important
part of the product experience and one
that really kind of translates the brand
and I don't think in years before it
hasn't been done the way it should be done
like it is now.
Very good,
Obviously clearly a massive amount of
stuff that we could talk about around
brand and it will not be the last time
that we're speaking about this subject.
But we are going to be talking the next
couple of episodes about product and how
you really differentiate there and also
how you can build a following.
So if you're interested in hearing about
that stuff, please subscribe to this.
podcast wherever you listen to them,
wherever you are listening to them now, go
to cultproducts .yaya .co and we're giving
away a very cool free UI prototyping kit
that you can use with AI to create your
kind of first vision of your product.
And if you would like to join our
community and be part of our beta testing
group for this cult products product that
we are in the process of developing, if
you are starting a B2B startup, please
sign up.
The link will be in the show notes.
Next time we're back, we will not have the
sore throats and hangovers from this
weekend's LibBiscuit gig.
I...
would hope, although Adam is going on a
stag do this weekend, so we'll see what
state he comes back in.
Yeah.
Thank you for listening.
Let's hit it.