So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

In this episode, Megan & Jennifer are joined by Dan Barr, Chief Deputy Attorney General for the State of Arizona, to talk about public service, purpose-driven legal careers, and building trust in government institutions. Dan shares lessons from nearly four decades in private practice, representing clients like Apple and CBS, before stepping into public service to help uphold the rule of law. He opens up about the motivations behind his transition, how he mentors the next generation of lawyers, and why curiosity, good judgment, and understanding your client’s goals matter more than billable hours. The conversation also touches on the state of pro bono work, the importance of showing up with common sense in a polarized world, and how even small, everyday actions can help defend democracy and strengthen the legal profession.

Dan Barr is a longtime advocate for access to justice and a respected voice in Arizona’s legal community. Before joining the AG’s office, he spent over 37 years at Perkins Coie, where he led the pro bono program and represented the First Amendment Coalition of Arizona. Today, he continues to serve with purpose, collaborating across party lines and mentoring attorneys who are driven by more than just career success. Whether in the courtroom or online, Dan brings clarity, humility, and humor to some of the most complex challenges facing the legal field today.

Learn more about our guest:
Love So Much To Say? Let us know! Drop a review, give us 5 stars in your favorite podcast app, and tell us what made you laugh, think, or just go “yep, that’s me.” Every review helps us reach more awesome humans who want to make legal…well, human. 

Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People. Where we explore behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We're your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches, Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we're here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real struggles of balancing work with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. We're bringing you real stories, candid conversations, and smart insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer - what makes you human? So whether you’re navigating billable hours or breaking glass ceilings in a woman-owned legal practice, this legal podcast is for you. Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human). 

[00:00:00] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: we are the stewards of. The constitution and the rule of law. And it's just different from other things. If you wanna make a lot of money and that's all you wanna do, go be an investment banker or, I don't know, go rob banks or something like that.
[00:00:16] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I don't know, whatever. But I mean, practicing law is, is about a whole lot more than just being a business. yes, being a business, is important. but it's a lot more than that.
Welcome to So Much To Say, a legal podcast for people where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started.
[00:00:44] Megan Senese: Hmm.
[00:00:45] Jennifer Ramsey: Honored to welcome today Dan Barr, who is the Chief Deputy Attorney General for the State of Arizona. legal career has spanned decades and has impact stretches far beyond the courtroom. Before stepping into public service, Dan span over 37 years as a partner at Perkins coi. Where he focused on civil litigation, media law and employment litigation, he is a longtime advocate for access to justice earning the Arizona Bar Foundation's 2021 Foundation for Justice Award. Dan helped launch the Phoenix Legal Action Network and for more than a decade, helped lead the district of a. Arizona's pro bono program. He also represented the First Amendment Coalition of Arizona, taught Mass Communications law at a SU and continues to mentor the next generation of lawyers. And on a personal note, for our listeners, out Dan's LinkedIn. As Megan alluded to the intro, it is a gold mine.
[00:01:46] Jennifer Ramsey: It is a thoughtful resource where he often breaks down complex legal and political issues in a way that's accessible and grounded in common sense. So Dan, thank you so much
[00:01:58] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well,
[00:01:59] Jennifer Ramsey: here.
[00:02:00] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Gosh, you're making me blush, but go ahead.
[00:02:05] Jennifer Ramsey: Good. Our job here is done.
[00:02:06] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Okay. Okay.
[00:02:08] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:02:09] Megan Senese: we're just really, we usually ask like, how it feels for people to kind of hear all of your, your accomplishments kind of read back to you, but in a lot of ways, I feel like you're not done. You, it sounds like you have a lot more, that you're trying to achieve and get finished.
[00:02:24] Jennifer Ramsey: Well, we try every day, right? Yeah.
[00:02:27] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:02:27] Megan Senese: One of the things that we wanted to kick off with, and this is again, what, what pulled us, what pulled me into reaching out. Well, and also it was kind of a, like, a hail Mary pass where I'm like, there is zero chance that this person is going to respond to me. And you did. And so, you know, if anyone who,
[00:02:42] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Okay.
[00:02:42] Megan Senese: Feels, intimidated by an outreach, just. Just do it. So you've made a point, you know, of standing up for others in your career, done advocating, you've, you've mentored. One of the first things you've sent to me was, where you were helping somebody was accepting a word and you were able to, to introduce them. And it was this like very beautiful written speech that you've gotten to see their career.
[00:03:03] Megan Senese: And so one of the things we wanted to kick off is, where did it all begin? You were the person that had said to me recently, and I haven't heard this in a while, and we talked about this on another podcast where you said that is a calling and I, I haven't heard that in, in a really long time. and so I thought that would be a nice place to kind of start with your, with your career and where you landed Now.
[00:03:26] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, it, it, it is a calling. It's um, it's a profession. It's not just an occupation. we are the stewards of. The constitution and the rule of law. And it's just different from other things. If you wanna make a lot of money and that's all you wanna do, go be an investment banker or, I don't know, go rob banks or something like that.
[00:03:47] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I don't know, whatever. But I mean, practicing law is, is about a whole lot more than just being a business. yes, being a business, is important. but it's a lot more than that.
[00:03:59] Megan Senese: I,
[00:04:00] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:04:00] Megan Senese: That so much. And you've had. Quite,
[00:04:02] Jennifer Ramsey: Okay.
[00:04:03] Megan Senese: The career. So why don't you walk us through what that looks like? 'cause you as we were prepping, I thought I knew, but you know, this is why we have guests on 'cause you find so much more. And then as we continue to talk, you're like, oh, well I also have these like super high profile clients if you want me to talk about those.
[00:04:19] Megan Senese: And then you've also helped on the advocacy side. And so I love seeing the duality of both of those. So let's start with the sexy, let's start with your, some of your sexy clients where you were telling us, That you've represented some of them and, and give us the big pi picture, and then we can also talk about your, advocacy and how you've mentored people in the past
[00:04:40] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I mean, I was lucky at, at, in private practice at Brown and Bain, and then we merged into Perkins Cooey in 2005 to represent some significant companies. I represented IBM. For a while I represented Apple Computer. and while one of the cases we had for Apple computer was an insurance case having to do with,the underlying case between Apple and Apple Core, the holding company for the Beatles, and I got to see documents signed by all four Beatles and all of that.
[00:05:11] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: But what the insurance companies refuse to pay. Apple computer for defense or indemnity because they said they had breached this, agreement they had with Apple Core. Apple Core allowed Apple Computer at the start of the creation of the company to use the Apple logo, except on machines dedicated to creating music.
[00:05:34] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Now, who knew? Right? And so by. Early, uh, 1990s, a Macintosh with third party peripherals and software could make music. And of course today Apple is like a major, you know, person, fact person in the music industry. so one of the things I had to do was prepare, Steve Wozniak, who was the co-founder of Apple for his deposition.
[00:06:02] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I spent an entire day up at his house in the mountains of Los Gatos. preparing him for a deposition and, uh, surrounded by things like he had a drum set signed by Ringo Star in his, in his living room and stuff like that. But it was just fascinating. I mean, Steve Wozniak was brilliant, but he was also sort, he had like a 15 year olds enthusiasm for computers, and stuff.
[00:06:26] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And it, it was just a fascinating day. And then I got to spend the next day. Him in San Francisco, defending him. and you know, I have to admit I was sort of starstruck by that I mean, but part of the time you're sitting there going, oh my God, I'm sitting with Steve Wozniak in his living room at the same time.
[00:06:43] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I'm thinking I have to get him ready for a deposition here. And so I'm the one, I'm the one in charge of this meeting and getting, you know, what he needs to do. I was also lucky to represent a lot of news media, both locally and nationally. one of my cases represented, uh, CBS and Andy Rooney in a lawsuit.
[00:07:04] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: That was filed here in, um, Arizona's, a libel lawsuit. Rooney showed up for the summary judgment argument, and he, he held a brief up and he looked at me, he says, I read your brief. I give it about a B minus. I go, well, why do you give it a B minus? And he didn't say, well, of course you end it here by respectfully submitted, blah, blah, blah.
[00:07:27] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Why do you have that in there? And all of that. So anyway, we won and, um, all that, but you know, it, it was fun to do that. And, um, I was lucky throughout my career to represent a lot of interesting and fun people. I represented the news media a lot and those people are fun and interesting and that's one thing I wish on anyone practicing laws, whatever you do, work with people who are interesting and fun.
[00:07:54] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, that's so important. My dad always says, hang out with people who are a lot younger than you are, because it, it keeps you young at heart, like when you are, because I'm gonna be, I'm, I'm not even gonna say hold, I'm gonna be my next birthday, but I teach yoga on the side and, a lot of my, my yogi instructors are in their late twenties and thirties and it's just so much fun to be around them because it gives a different, joy to ViiV, to law or to to
[00:08:22] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Yeah,
[00:08:23] Jennifer Ramsey: You know, it's just like, it's just. too short sometimes. Um,
[00:08:28] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I'm, I'm 68 now, so hanging out with the younger people is easy to do.
[00:08:32] Jennifer Ramsey: I love it. I'm, yep, I hear you. so you you transitioned from private practice, end of 2022, beginning of 2023, got into public service. What was the calling for you there for that, that transition?
[00:08:48] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, you know, it was during the pandemic, it was 2021 and like everybody else, I'm sitting at home and stuff. And, uh, Chris Mays called me up and I'd known Chris for about 25 years, uh, since she'd been a newspaper reporter for the Arizona Republic. And I was a newspaper re reporter for the Republic, before she was.
[00:09:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: uh, she had also been a summer clerk at my law firm during, uh,
[00:09:12] Jennifer Ramsey: Okay.
[00:09:13] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: In 2002. And so she called up and said, Hey, I've been asked to run for Attorney General. Do you think that's a crazy idea? And I go. I don't know if it's crazy, but you know, why not? And I said, you know, I'm like everybody else.
[00:09:28] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I'm sitting at home here and I can be helpful to you as far as campaign and stuff. in part, I mean for two reasons is I had been in the legal community for a long time and I knew lawyers around the state. I had also represented the news media around the state so I could do things and for instance, I did this twice.
[00:09:50] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I was down in Tucson with her and we had an hour and a half to kill. I called up the general manager of the NBC affiliate and said, Hey, I'm down here with Chris. You know, we have an hour and a half to kill. Can I bring her by the station? You can have a reporter interviewer about whatever you want, and.
[00:10:08] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: So, you know, I'd bring her in and she'd go into the conference room with a reporter and I'd sit and yammer with the news director for a while. and, you know, then they run a, a piece about her, that night, we also had a time, we were down in Tucson, called up the publisher of the Green Valley, newspaper.
[00:10:25] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Green Valley is a large retirement community south of Tucson saying the same thing. He said, Hey, I'm Tucson. We, I can bring Chris by and. Green Valley's about a half hour south of Tucson, so I just dropped her off for an hour and, the editor of the paper interviewed her while I was banging in campaign signs along the roadway in, green Valley.
[00:10:48] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And, three days later there was a front page interview with her in the paper with her big picture there and stuff like that. So I could do stuff like that. and then. After she got elected, she got elected with the whopping,victory total of 280 votes statewide, the closest statewide election in the history of Arizona.
[00:11:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: She won by 280 votes out of 2.5 million people. Um, and so I. I represented her and a challenge from the losing candidate and all of that. during December, after she got elected, she asked me to be chief Deputy. And I thought at the time, it's a challenge. It's something different, and why not? I had been over the past two years, I was telling people in private practice I was in the slow glide to retirement where I could do whatever I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it, and they still paid me for it.
[00:11:45] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And, I figured I had earned that and that was great and all of that. so about four months after I took this job, I ran into a friend of mine who's a federal district court judge. She came up to me, she put her arm around me and said, your name came up at the judge's lunch the other day, and how your slow glide to retirement has been a spectacular failure.
[00:12:07] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: So,
[00:12:09] Megan Senese: Too busy working during your retirement.
[00:12:12] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: yeah, so it's, you know, coming into the public sector and, especially my job where I sort of oversee the legal work for the state,it was something different. And I took really about six months. To learn about the office and the people here and the culture here because there, there are a lot of people here who've been here 10, 15, 20 years and I'd wanna know why they've been here for that long.
[00:12:38] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I mean, I came out of an office, the Phoenix office of Perkins Kuey, where I'd been there for 38 years and that was not unusual. Um, but for people in the public sector, one thing they're not here for is the money. Right. And so, you know, what motivates them and what, for keeping them here and stuff.
[00:12:57] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And what I found is they're motivated by doing excellent work. the, work life balance is better here than in the public sector and stuff, but it's really sort of the public calling, that keeps a lot of people here.
[00:13:12] Jennifer Ramsey: I love that you mentioned, you know, the culture and really I. Being curious and wanting to understand, you know, this new team that you joined when you joined the, the ags office, you know, learning about them and what would you say has be was the most surprising? Change for you from private practice to public service? I mean, what was just the most, and maybe it was the most delightful versus surprising. You know what, maybe it was, what's the, what's the most delightful thing that you
[00:13:43] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: You know, in, in, in the private sector, you know, one of the motivations is money, obviously, right? the more hours that you bill and the more hours that you can bill for clients who can pay your top rates, the more money you'll make. and some people are more more motivated by that than others, but that motivation is completely absent in the public sector.
[00:14:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: So that people are not looking for like, oh, I wanna do all this high-billing work and I wanna work weekends and, and this and that. you know, you have to figure out, well, what motivates people? and you know, what motivates a lot of these people is that they're, representing the good guys, They're representing, you know, the state and a lot of things and they want things to work better.
[00:14:32] Jennifer Ramsey: Yep.
[00:14:32] Megan Senese: I love that you're, telling us about how you came in and you didn't try to immediately change things. You, took kind of lay of the land and tried to understand this office as you would. When you were in private practice and you, you gave us a quite a few examples in the prep about how, there were times where you could have charged them more money for certain, answering a question or you know, taking on a piece of work when you realized it wasn't really a legal question
[00:14:59] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Right.
[00:14:59] Megan Senese: It was more of a business question and you were able to kind of resolve it quickly. it sounds like you were able to apply that same relationship building client service to now this other side of being in the public sector. how did that continue to go through, like your entire career? how were you able to move all of that? perspective taking when there's so much pressure
[00:15:22] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Sure.
[00:15:23] Megan Senese: Trying to get the billing
[00:15:24] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, I, I think there are three major elements to advising a client. one is mastery of a substantive area of law. two is really understanding their business or what they're trying to accomplish. It's not only understanding their business, but why do they do what they do and how do they do it right?
[00:15:46] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And, then finally, it's applying your judgment. To, to all of that. And so there are a lot of lawyers who master substantive areas of the law, but they don't really understand what the client is trying to accomplish. or they have really crappy judgment, right? but also your judgment improves if you really understand what their business is and what they're trying to do.
[00:16:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And so I had this a lot representing media clients. Where they would call up and they wanna file a lawsuit to get some public record regarding something. And I could have just said, okay, fine, I'll take your money and I'll file the lawsuit and this or that. But a lot of times I would say, well, okay, well where else can we get these documents?
[00:16:28] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: what's the document flow here? And it turns out that the lawsuit may be that they want to file against some federal agency for some documents. It turns out some state agency had the same documents or were copied on them, and you could then file a lawsuit under the Arizona Public Records law, which is far more friendlier to requesters than the Federal Freedom of Information Act is.
[00:16:52] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: and so there are things like that, that if you understand what they're trying to do and for the media, they're not in the lawsuit business. They're in the business of getting information and publishing it and doing it in a timely manner. You have to think, what can I do to make that happen? Instead of saying, oh sure, let's file a freedom of information lawsuit and we'll get the information maybe in 18 months, you know?
[00:17:16] Megan Senese: So it's about serving your client versus just trying to get more billable time. Right.
[00:17:20] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Right. Well, and that's the most valuable. you lose out maybe in the short term, valuable time, but you build a long-term relationship with them. And you know, I had some clients for over 30 years. And, if all I was doing was, you know, trying to, bill as much time as possible, we wouldn't have had that relationship.
[00:17:41] Jennifer Ramsey: I love, I think this is a great framework that for all of the private practitioners out there listening to the substantive subject matter expertise, know thy client and judgment, that's really a beautiful equation for people in the client service business. So,
[00:17:59] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: W Well, ultimately, the most valuable thing you have to clients is your judgment. And if they value that, what will happen is they will call you about things that aren't even legal issues. and a lot of times I would, I'd have to answer 'em and say, okay, what you're asking me about is not a legal issue here.
[00:18:17] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And they go, yeah, yeah, I know. But I wanna know what you think about it again.
[00:18:22] Megan Senese: Yeah,
[00:18:22] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:18:23] Megan Senese: That's being a business advisor, which Jen and I have put in a a thousand pitches where for every law firm we have worked in, and that's the ultimate goal, is what you're telling us about right now. So. of the things that, we talked about at the, at the onset about how you've advocated for others, how you've mentored people. you've done quite a bit on the pro bono side and actually, even as I'm saying the word pro bono right now, it, I'm having a hard time saying it because of everything that's happening and the legal space right now, and it feels like a bad pro bono feels now like a bad word because of everything that's going
[00:18:58] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, pro bono's, not a bad word, but it's been bastardized by, by some, by law firms making these deals with President Trump. Right.
[00:19:06] Megan Senese: Right. So talk to us about your pro bono efforts, what you've been able to, to do throughout your career and are you able to continue that still now in your new, in your new role?
[00:19:18] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I started out doing some pro bono work because as a young litigator I wanted to get into court, and when you work at a large law firm, that's hard to do. So I would like volunteer for things like the Volunteer Lawyers Project here in Arizona, even if to, you know, to get domestic relations work or some just to get into court, to start to feel comfortable with that.
[00:19:40] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I kept on doing that as, um, you know, I progressed in my legal career. Eventually,I became the, uh, co-chair of the district courts pro bono program here and. What happens in that program is it usually is an inmate who has survived summary judgment in like a, excessive force case or a first Amendment case or something like that.
[00:20:05] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And the judge is reaching out to find counsel to represent the inmate in a trial. and so I would have, the district court judge call me and. Ask me to, find somebody for them. And it's really a win-win opportunity for, young lawyers to get, first chair jury trial experience in federal court.
[00:20:27] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: The discovery has been done, or sometimes the court would allow more discovery to happen. the judge knows that it's your first trial that he or she is really thankful that you're there. and you get to do it. You get to pick the jury and make the arguments and all of that, and then usually the judge would ask the jury to stay there, to talk to the lawyer about what he or she did well, or he might.
[00:20:54] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: You know, invite the lawyer back in the courtroom and talk about what they thought they did well and you know, what could be worked on. It was a really a win-win for everybody. And when I was at Perkins Cooey, I made every litigation associate take one of these cases. I mean, and once you've done this, on paying matters, when people are looking to fill their trial teams, you can say.
[00:21:18] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I did a week long, two week long case in federal court and held to a jury and all of that. And it doesn't matter that it was pro bono or not, is that you've done it right and like anything else,
[00:21:31] Jennifer Ramsey: Experience.
[00:21:32] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: well, trial experiences, trial and you, when you find out you won't die doing it,it means a lot. And, uh, you also build up a reputation.
[00:21:41] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: With the court. the judges love that you do that. And I had one woman who had finished number one in her class at a SU, and very smart and all of that, but she had no trial experience. She took on two of these trials in a three month period. And before I knew it, she was like the co-chair of the, the federal bar here in, uh, Arizona.
[00:22:04] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And all the judges knew her by names.
[00:22:06] Megan Senese: That's what
[00:22:07] Jennifer Ramsey: I love success.
[00:22:08] Megan Senese: Up, right?
[00:22:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Yeah.
[00:22:10] Jennifer Ramsey: so coming back to your, your current, Public service. it's been a busy year, shall we
[00:22:15] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Yes.
[00:22:17] Jennifer Ramsey: And, uh, picking up on the, on the theme of, of having good judgment, I'm going to, I'm gonna liken it to common sense. And as we mentioned, you know, your LinkedIn, I feel is a, a good beacon of the things that comes through when in your writing and your work is your commitment So I'm curious in this divisive, polarized time, what does common sense look like in government today? in what areas do you see it winning and where are we losing out a little bit here?
[00:22:51] Megan Senese: Do we have five hours to talk about that?
[00:22:54] Jennifer Ramsey: I know, I know. This is a, this was the one of the big, the big
[00:22:57] Megan Senese: a light question from Jen Ramsey.
[00:22:59] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I mean, I'll, I'll start up. my job has changed a little bit since, the election last year, and especially with the inauguration of President Trump on January 20th. And I now spend at least an hour of my day every day on Zoom calls with other, ag offices. And there are democratic ag offices in, in, uh, other states.
[00:23:22] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Where we talk about the lawsuits that we have, the lawsuits that we may bring, what the problems are, and the issues facing us are. And it's all very, it's all very practical, that way as far as like, what do we hope to achieve here? You know, how do we achieve standing and working around those issues.
[00:23:42] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: it's very collaborative. And, uh, you know, it's, it's been an interesting experience here, especially where it's, unlike a law firm where you have sort of rigid lines of authority. the ags offices in 22 states, you think, oh my God, this is like herding cats or something. And, uh, it isn't that way at all.
[00:24:03] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I mean, people are very, collaborative with each other. People are very open with each other about what the potential. flaws could be in various arguments and stuff, and it's been very inspiring work to do. I've also found in government there are a lot of people who just want to get the job done and get it done well.
[00:24:21] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: and you know, you watch something like CNN or N-M-S-N-B-C or Fox News and you see people yelling at each other, especially at night and stuff like that. And, you know, I found in government that isn't the case at all. I had an experience about, I don't know, about 18 months ago, maybe two years ago.
[00:24:41] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I was up in Denver. there's a multi-state thing of all, uh, ag offices from around the country. And at the time we're talking about, possibly suing Meta. It's a lawsuit that was eventually filed by about, I don't know, 45 different states and Arizona's one of them, regarding how addictive Meta's algorithm is, especially for children.
[00:25:02] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And I was sitting at a table with. The chief deputies from several Republican states, and I thought, oh gosh, you know, what do I have in common with them? And it turns out that I had a lot in common with them. And if we weren't talking about, various wedge issues that we probably agreed on, like 85% of the things that we wanted to do, and we start talking about why don't we focus on that 85%, but in this sort of political environment, you know, it's hard to do that.
[00:25:31] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I can say there are a lot of people in government who want to make it work and wanna make it work, uh, efficiently. they're not the people you see preening on TV or on social media and stuff like that.
[00:25:44] Jennifer Ramsey: that is such a glimmer of hope and,I just really appreciate that and, and. So picking up on that thread of, of hope. You know what, in addition to that, what other moments, large or small, have you seen the system working? our government system, our legal system. Where have you seen it working? And there are, we've seen some little glimmers here with Harvard and others, but I'm just curious where else you see it, Dan? 'cause this is, we need a. need a happy, there's hope out there. Podcast for our people.
[00:26:20] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, I mean, you see it in the courts. the state ags that we filed, I think 13 lawsuits together and, you know, we've gotten, injunctive relief in, in a lot of these lawsuits and stuff. but it's not gonna be just the courts. lawyers that do it, it has to be everyone. And, you know, people can do it in all sorts of ways, large and small.
[00:26:43] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I mean, you don't have to be filing lawsuits. although if you're in private practice and you do pro bono work, say for like someone who's social security, they haven't been able to get their, um, their benefits and all of that, you could represent them pro bono in, in doing that. I mean, there's all sorts of things, but you know, especially for lawyers,
[00:27:04] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: these are people who understand what the rule of law is and its importance and stuff like that. And even if you're just having informal conversations with your family and friends, those are people who trust you. Those are people who, you know, admire your judgment and all of that, and to hear from you as opposed to hearing from some bloating person on, you know, cable TV or something like that, that's something significant.
[00:27:30] Megan Senese: I'm not a lawyer and I really paid much attention to the way that the courts work up until recently. And so I've been more vocal with posting certain things and I have gotten quite a lot of positive responses where people are appreciative that I'm using the platform in that way.
[00:27:48] Megan Senese: And, you know, that does allow me to continue to do it. there's definitely moments where people have said, you know, please be careful. They. On the other side, these other people have gotten some negative threats and, and
[00:28:00] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Sure.
[00:28:01] Megan Senese: Things like that. I haven't encountered that yet. I'm knocking on wood. but it does make me feel better to hear that, you know, I, I consider, I don't wanna say this in like a, I don't really consider myself as somebody important, but yet when I'm posting information in this way, people seem appreciative. And that's what connected me with you, where you were like, here's what. don't wanna say normal people, but non-lawyers like can do.
[00:28:24] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Right.
[00:28:25] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Person. And that really resonated 'cause so many people were contacting me, asking me like, what can we do? And I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm not the expert. Well, I don't know anything. And so I,Well, for instance, you know, we're talking about, you know, law Day is coming up on May 1st, and there's celebrations all around the country. A lot of times in various courts here in Phoenix, the federal court is having one at noontime. The Superior Court, the state court here is having one with two appellate judges at five 30 at night talking about the Constitution, stuff like that.
[00:29:02] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And it's meant to attract not only lawyers, but. people who are not lawyers or high school students and college students and the like. law day was established during the Eisenhower administration as a celebration of the rule of law and having people discuss it. And, this year is as good a time as any to, to do that.
[00:29:21] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:29:22] Jennifer Ramsey: And if,and if this podcast comes out afterwards, mark it on your calendar for next year, May 1st, 2026.
[00:29:29] Jennifer Ramsey: ask too, Dan, so in our time beginning to, to wrap up, if you were speaking to young lawyers or students thinking about a career in public service, especially at a time when trust in the government feels fragile, what advice would you give them?
[00:29:46] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, I'll tell you the advice I have given them, and people ask me about the difference between the private sector and the public sector, and I tell them that I think it's important to work in both. Uh, it will make you a better lawyer. I think it's important to, to work not only in different places, but for different types of people and problems, and have variety in what you do.
[00:30:09] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: these days there's too much pressure, especially in large firms, to specialize early. Something. And so you become an expert in a very narrow field, but you really cheat yourself, as a lawyer in developing your skills, And so I tell them that. And also my experience is that for most people, they will wind up practicing in areas that either don't exist today, or if I told them about this today, that they would think it's completely boring and.
[00:30:40] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I can't tell you how many lawyers I know who started out as tax lawyers and then they became litigators who started out as corporate lawyers, and then they became real estate lawyers or, whatever. And that, that happens with everyone. And in my career,I didn't think doing employment law would be very interesting.
[00:30:58] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I did, I think one case and then one of, The lawyers who had been an associate for me, and then she became partner. She went to work in-house at America, west Airlines. And she came to me and she said, you know, I want you to handle all our employment litigation. To which I said, you know, I've only done one of these cases.
[00:31:17] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And she said, well, you know, you and I work well together and I respect your judgment and you can learn, you know what the law is here. I think, you can. We can work well together. And so I wound up doing I think like seven trials for America, west Airlines in two years and all of that.
[00:31:35] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: But that happens with everyone is you wind up working with someone they like working with you, you like working with them, and all of a sudden you're on a, a road that you never anticipated you would be on.
[00:31:48] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, I that, I love that. I think that's beautiful. so what, what's next for you after this? This.
[00:31:57] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Well, hopefully lunch, but
[00:32:01] Jennifer Ramsey: I know, I think we're in the same time zone, Dan, which is cool.
[00:32:04] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: Yeah.
[00:32:04] Jennifer Ramsey: but, okay, let me, let me rephrase the question. Um.
[00:32:10] Megan Senese: What kind of sandwich will you be eating? No, go ahead.
[00:32:14] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious, you know what, because you obviously you're, sailing off into the sunset and retiring was an epic failure as you were told by your, your, was it the federal, your federal court judge, friend. So, when this is all over, when your, your public service tenure is over, what, is, what are you excited about out there?
[00:32:35] Jennifer Ramsey: What are you looking forward to?
[00:32:36] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I don't know. I, I spent the weekend with my granddaughters up in Berkeley in this weekend, and being a full-time grandfather, it seems pretty fun to me. So
[00:32:47] Jennifer Ramsey: That's amazing.
[00:32:48] Megan Senese: I like that. I
[00:32:49] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: I, I mean, you know, I wanna be able to do things while I'm still mobile traveling and stuff like that. I have a few friends who, who are all, all federal judges who are now, on senior status, which is like the greatest gig of all, where, you know, you have a job for life. You can work as much or as little as you want, and um, you can take whatever cases you want, stuff like that.
[00:33:13] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: And you can, travel all over the place. And I know several who are doing that right now.
[00:33:18] Megan Senese: Jen, this is where you're gonna be like, oh gosh, why, why do you do this to me? We, end every episode, with a moment of inspiration, which is all 'cause of John.
[00:33:26] Megan Senese: 'cause I'm like, oh, well let's just get to the next thing. So this is a moment for us to, take a moment, take a breath. thank you for, for being on, and then Jen will, then
[00:33:36] Jennifer Ramsey: Thank you. Yes. I mentioned earlier that, um, I, my side hustle is I teach yoga and it, it does really help keep me sane and, so I, I always end my practice with just a, a, a note to everyone to go out in the world, be good to themselves and to be good to others. Namaste. And I just,I hope that, and I wish that for all of our. our listeners, Dan, for Thank you, Namaste to you for being here today and, for all of the work that you and Chris and the attorney General's office is doing to help, keep the rule of law. But thank you for all of the work that you and Chris and the Attorney General's office is doing, in this current environment.
[00:34:25] Jennifer Ramsey: It is greatly appreciated. And again, just thank you from the bottom of our hearts for joining us today.
[00:34:30] Chief Deputy AZ A.G. Dan Barr: thank you and thank you for having me. I enjoyed talking to you both.
[00:34:33] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes, likewise. Likewise.

That's it for today. Join us next time on So Much To Say a legal podcast for people Can't get enough of us. Visit us at www stage guide.