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Practical conversations to help you grow in your relationship with Jesus Christ.
Mothers Faith
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[00:00:00] Hey, everybody. Welcome in. My name is Aaron and I'm Morgan. Uh, We're just going to go ahead and dive right in today. Does that sound good to you? Sounds great. Cool. I think we've got a little bit of ground to cover here, but, um, I want to make sure we have enough time to, to get into everything. First of all, how are you doing?
I'm good. Do you want to give a little pregnancy update? We're, we haven't, we announced that we were pregnant when we came back and then we haven't said anything much since then, but yeah. Uh, The time of release, I'll be between 28 and 29 weeks pregnant. Yeah. Um, I just passed my glucose test, uh, which is really exciting.
Um, I actually kind of crushed it. Um, No diabetes. Yeah. The, like, healthy, or, like, passing range is 70 to 139, and I was 71. Hey. I think that's good. Somebody's going to hear this and be like, Oh no, you need to get checked. But yeah, as far as we know, it's in the good range. Yes. [00:01:00] Yeah. So that's good. Um, we didn't have this conversation prior to this, but it was a thought that I had.
I don't know if we're telling people on the podcast, what we're having. Um, we haven't posted anything. You want to know the gender follow us on Instagram. That's how you get them. No, I'm just kidding. It hasn't been posted on Instagram. No, it's fine. I think it's good to leave, uh, some barrier between our like normal lives and what we do here.
Okay. That's just me trying to cover, cover my, uh, butt when I use gender specific pronouns later in the episode. You want to go in your You can do that, but you can't do wagging your tail. Oh man. Go ahead. Go. In your house. Come on. Come. What's in there that you It just wants the option. Well, that's good.
Praise God for that. We're glad that you're doing well. [00:02:00] Um, okay, let's go ahead and get into what we're going to talk about today. And I'm actually, I'm pretty excited because I feel like this is going to be just a good, like honest conversation for you and I, um, because this is just kind of, you know, it's I feel like this has been kind of lingering for a while.
I don't know if lingering is the right, right word to use, um, because that makes it sound like it's been completely unaddressed, but that's not the case. But I think it was a while ago. Um, you just started asking some questions. Um, about faith and kind of evaluating what it is that you believe, why you believe it, that sort of thing.
So I don't want to get too far ahead, but, um, yeah, I'll just, I'll just give it to you. What do you feel like needs to be said? Yeah. Um, I did maybe, uh, it was 2020. I feel like, you know, everybody's world was kind of falling apart, um, so mine did too, um, and just started to question why do we believe the [00:03:00] things that we believe, um, is it just because we were born into the families that we were born into, um, In the geographical location that we happen to be born into um What I believe what I believe if I were born anywhere else All right, this is Do you just want to put her in your house?
Yeah, but I don't know any in your house. Let's try that again in your house No Will you put her bed in there? Okay, come out of your house She's like I'm so confused I know you
You come out. In my house, out my house, in my house, out my house.[00:04:00]
Lay down.
So I'll start off, um, start off with this again. And I'll set it up a little bit differently. I'll talk about the title of the show. Wait for her to settle.
False alarm. You saw it. Okay. So what we're talking about today. Okay, so the title of this week's episode is False. Defending my mother's faith and this was something you actually proposed that idea Um, this does not have anything to do with either of our mothers It's a little bit more broad than that.
Um in a way it does but you know, not necessarily There's anything wrong with either of our mother's beliefs Explain that for us. Explain Defending My Mother's Faith. Why is this an episode that you wanted to do so bad? [00:05:00] So, back in 2020, um, along with probably the majority of the population, we had a lot of time to think.
And, um, I just started to ask some questions about why we believe what we believe. Um, Is it just a byproduct of the mothers we happen to be born to, um, and the location we were born in, um, what I believe, what I believe if I were born to anyone else, anywhere else in the world, um, and just wanting to understand, like, the why behind.
Some of the things we do, believe, practice, et cetera, um, and we'll get more into that later, um, in this conversation of why that's important. Um, and there is a worship song that just [00:06:00] really, like, the lyrics, when I hear it, like, better describe, I think, what I felt than I could on my own. Um, so it's, um, the song Monday Morning Faith by S.
E. U. Worship. Um, and the first two lines of the song are, I want to meet with you more than Sundays. I want to know more than just my mother's faith. Um, it goes on to say, cause that's not enough to get through the rough. I need a Monday morning faith. Um, and yeah, that just like, I mean, music pun struck a chord, um, with me as I was sitting, like thinking through those thoughts, um, in 2020 and, um, You're doing fine.
If you can avoid breathing so heavily into the microphone
[00:07:00] When I have long thoughts it's hard to know you're fine, I know you're yeah, no, I know you're fine Did I mention i'm 28? You're doing great, but no i'm probably gonna edit that out because I don't want people to be more mindful of you breathing heavily Um, but yeah, if you can if not again, it's fine Do we need to go back and do anything?
No, I don't think so. Um, I think some of the editing will take care of it. Okay.
You were just talking about the song. Yeah. So listening to the words of that song and, um, yeah, just reflecting on these questions that I have drove me to just wanting to understand why do we do what we do? Why do we believe what we believe? What's, what's the why behind this? [00:08:00] Um, Can I interject with a couple of questions every now and then just kind of some clarifying thoughts Did you because you just mentioned why do we do what we do?
And why do we believe what we believe? And those are, in my opinion, two different questions. Um, so when, when I hear, why do we do what we do? I hear that more of a institutionalized religion sort of sense. When I hear, why do we believe what we believe? That for me is a more, uh, spiritual, um, yeah, more spiritual approach of, you know, theologically, what do I believe and kind of worldview?
What do I believe? Talk about both of those. Um, yeah, the challenge around why do we do what we do and then the challenge around what do we believe what we believe. Yeah, so I think there's this, like, idea of, in the why do we do what we do, of tradition, and that really gets to the heart of, like, my mother's [00:09:00] faith, you know?
Like my mom brought me up, and my mom and my dad, um, just talking mom because it's a new mother episode. Yeah, it's, mom is kind of the overarching idea of tradition, uh, culture, what was I brought up in, um, yeah, in these kind of Christian circles. Yeah. Yeah, so the Yeah, the idea of tradition and this is what we What we did growing up, you know, you wake up on sunday morning and you go to church and for me tradition was like wearing skirts to church and now I don't do that You know, like I I can wear pants to church.
Um
and
No idea where I was going with that [00:10:00] Why do we do what we do?
Tradition Do you need to listen back to it? No
um outside of my faith one of my biggest pet peeves is at work When someone says well, we've always done it this way. Mm hmm. I can't stand that Um, I think you've talked about this a little bit before in in past conversations, but yeah Um Absolutely drives me crazy because in my mind, if there's a better way to do it, then let's do it just because we've always done it this way doesn't mean we have to keep doing it this way.
But it's so interesting that like, I don't take [00:11:00] that mindset from work and implement it. When I think about my faith or traditions. I think at one point you did. And I think that's kind of what sent you down this pathway. Am I wrong in that? No. Yeah. I, I don't know if no or yes, which, which one was the correct answer.
Um, I'm being sent down the path of. I know we've always done it this way, but why do we always do it? This way, and this is not like, um, trying to, like, destroy tradition because there is value in tradition, um, and those things being passed down from generation to generation, um, I'm thankful for the way that I was raised by my [00:12:00] parents in a church, like in a family that went to church, knows God, um, super thankful for that.
Um, there was just this like,
yeah, this question of, I don't, I didn't want to keep doing things just because, I had always done them that way. I, I wanted to know, well, what's the reasoning behind that tradition? And I honestly think that makes traditions more valuable. Oh, 100%. Yeah. When you, when you know why you're doing things.
Whatever you're doing. Um, so that's the, why do we do what we do? Why do we do what we do? Yeah. The tradition, the, so I do want to harp in on that just a little bit. I think that's super important. What you're, what you're hitting on here is the [00:13:00] idea of doing religiosity just for the sake of religiosity. Is that kind of what you're talking about?
Of like, we go to church because we always go to church, but then that's really, In your mind as a child, all you're getting out of that is, well, I'm being drugged to church. I know that at least that's what it was for me. Um, please don't hear, you know, kind of the way we've posed this conversation so far, it might make it sound like this was Morgan's thing, but this was like, I've dealt with this as well.
I think you just had more of a closer examination period of it more recently than I have. But I was growing up with that same mentality of like, we just go to church because we go to church. And I don't think that was ever like the intent. Um, I actually think my mom probably did a good job of trying to explain that to me a little bit of like why we do it.
As a matter of fact, I know for a fact, I can, I can almost hear back her explaining the why, but I wasn't always hearing it that way. As a kid, I was always just more concerned with the action, but not the motivation. Um, So that takes care of the, why do we do what we do? [00:14:00] Where were you when it comes to the, why do we believe what we believe?
Did, did Jesus or the idea of God ever come under attack for you? Yeah, I think in the midst of 2020, it was tough. I mean, not only did we have like a global pandemic going on, but in our own context, like our church family, like there was just stuff going on that really caused me to like, just not. Want to do any of this unravel?
Yeah. And like, that's a really scary, like, I, I kind of think I should go back and like preface all of this with like, that's a really scary place to be. Like when, In 2020, I would have been 25. Like you've lived your life 25 years based on Traditions you've always practiced and beliefs you've always [00:15:00] had and then to just feel like whoa.
I don't know And I'm married to somebody who, like, you're living and you're, um, Yes, I am alive. You're living, you're like, your livelihood and your calling is to be a pastor. You're living, not you're living, not apostrophe. Yes, while you are. The money that you bring home, um, to provide for our family, um, is based on believing in Jesus and serving our church.
Um, So that's a really scary place to be that's real I I'm sorry you mentioned, uh You know, um, I'm, I'm kind of getting all over the place here, but you know, I remember, uh, around this time you had, you had really gotten into Rhett and Link at the time. I remember that. And both of them were posting that if you don't know who Rhett and Link are, they're a couple of YouTubers.
They do Good Mythical Morning, this whole thing really entertaining, really funny [00:16:00] guys, but they had been in the church world forever. And then they had deconstructed their faith. And so they have a podcast where they talked about their deconstruction process and how they ended up walking away from the faith.
And one of the things I remember specifically Rhett saying was, I think you can probably answer this better than me, but they were doing something missions related. I can't remember what organization they worked with or whatever, but in some way there was like their livelihood attached with it. And one of the things I remember Rhett specifically talking about was he said it was so hard for me.
He said what kept me from walking away from the faith sooner was that my livelihood was attached to this thing. So it was kind of like this house of cards that ends up coming down. Obviously he ended up in a different place than, than I think that we're in right now. Um, but that was fascinating to me. I had never thought about that before, at least, you know, for me as someone who works at a church.
Um, yeah, I've never thought about that idea of like, man, if I ever stopped believing what I believe. What would be that lag period? How long would it take me to walk away from? I mean, there's so much wrapped up in it. Community, [00:17:00] um, I mean, my Sundays are free now. You know, like, there's so many aspects of my life that's wrapped up in my faith.
That, yeah, like, I don't even know, you know, if that started to unravel. I don't know what would be the first thing to go, but anyway, there's just kind of a sidebar. Yeah, so, scary place to be, um, and another frustrating episode of the True Discipleship Podcast where we have no answers for you because what I found myself doing was when that fir when those ideas first started creeping in, um, I didn't deal with them, um, I just, I kept showing up, like, in our context, like, I couldn't stop.
Showing up for church. Like I was, I was serving in our church. It was like a weekly, um, commitment that I had made where I was serving and I couldn't [00:18:00] just not show up. So then I fell into less tradition and more just like habit. Um, I was just really kind of faking it. Like I was showing up, but I was like, I'm here because I made a commitment, but there was just nothing.
It wasn't coming from the right place. I wasn't serving because I felt like, you know, this is what I do as like an overflow of like, My love for God and my following of Jesus. Um, it was an obligation and I knew I couldn't stop showing up. Like that would raise a red flag. If all of a sudden, like your middle school pastor's wife is just like, where are you, you know, you used to be here every Sunday and like now, now you're not here.
And there were relationships that were tied up with that as well. I mean, I remember. [00:19:00] When you came to me and you were like, Hey, I don't know if I can keep doing this or if I want to keep doing this, uh, for me, you know, you were working with a group of middle school girls who I think at this point they were in eighth grade, um, kind of coming towards the end of their middle school time.
And I remember, and I, I mean, in hindsight, I regret this, but I remember for the longest time, I was like, we'll just see it through. Until you get to the end of this year, you know, just like kind of keep chugging. Um, I would have never told you this, but looking at like, in hindsight, like basically I was saying fake it till you make it.
Um, and please hear me say, and hopefully you accept my apology that that was not what I should have said in that time. But, um, I mean, I think we were both looking at it kind of through the same perspective of like, Oh, well, you're almost done. Like you can do it for like, if you do fake it for a little bit longer, it's not going to kill you.
You know what I mean? Um, yeah. So I think that was kind of the approach that. [00:20:00] You were starting to take, I was allowing and, um, empower, not empowering, enabling you to take, um, without actually dealing with it. So, yeah, I think you're, you're right about that. So I really just kind of stuck a bandaid on it and.
Not even stuck a band aid on it. I just got back into the habit of it. And like, there were joyous moments like in showing up on those Sundays. And I was like, yeah, like, this is great. But then like the next like snag that I hit, it was just like, I've felt like everything was, I was trembling again. Yeah.
Crumbling again. And, um, here I am four years later and I still. Really haven't dealt with some of those like foundational issues. Um, I don't even know if I want to say foundational issues. [00:21:00] I want to say like, it's almost the ancillary things. Um, Hey Google, turn on the office lamp. It's 11 o'clock ancillary.
What a word lights out. That's a really good word.
Whenever you're ready. It wasn't your foundation. It was more of the ancillary things. Is that the right word? I don't know. I've never heard that word before in my life, but you said it was so much confidence. I love it. Let me, uh, no, I'm sure it's actually the word that I meant to say.
Google doesn't know what I'm talking about. Ancillary having subordinate subsidiary or secondary nature. Yeah, yeah, so kind of like the outskirty things. Yeah. [00:22:00] Auxiliary probably could have been. Ancillary. Ancillary? Ancillary? Ancillary. Yeah, extra or supplementary. Wow, look at you. That was a vocab word from somewhere in high school.
Man, I did not, I never got that lesson. Because the foundational things are still there. I do believe there is God. That Jesus is the son of God. Um, those things are there and maybe that's it sometimes. Um, But it's all the other stuff around it. It's, it's the tradition things or, um, when we believe truths that are countercultural, I mean, that's the toughest one of just feeling like Man, this is tough when it feels like the entire world is disagreeing with something that I've thought to be true for so long.
Um, and the world agreed with me for, for a large chunk of it. And now [00:23:00] they're, they're not cultural shifts. There's cultural shifts. And now like the world isn't supporting the beliefs that I've always held. So, um, Yeah, the foundational things are there. Like, God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, creation, um, There was something else I really wanted to harp on.
Oh, like, trusting the Bible. Like, that was a big one, um, and we We found some, like, really good teachings from Ben Stewart on the trustworthiness of the Bible and, like, I read about the papyrus. Is that the correct pronunciation? That was a part of, that was a part of the process. It eventually was written on papyrus.
Yeah, and just like the multiple copies and translations and, um, yeah, I mean, I was like deep into [00:24:00] that of, do I trust the Bible? Um, and, yeah. I mean because like that's the thing that's the thing that we have to base our our entire belief system on so I had to get to the point where I knew I could trust the bible and Now this four year process and beyond is still going on of unpacking What else is in the Bible, you know, because like for so long I've Listened to other people tell me what's in the Bible, but never Actually looked for myself and that kind of leads to like another point that we were gonna talk about was just like the trustworthiness of Bible teachers of your pastors, um, things like that.
Yeah, if I can. And again, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to fill in the gaps for, I'm trying to make sure that [00:25:00] whoever's listening, because I know this story, I've walked through it with you and do you know the ending I've kind of watched? Well, no, we're still on that pathway. Um, But just to kind of connect some of the pieces here, um, you alluded to some of this, but, you know, we were a part of a context, a church, um, where, uh, a leader failed, it was the result of, I mean, we've seen it and it wasn't just our leader, 2020, if you go back.
There was some stuff popping off. I mean, you had, um, trying to think Ravi Zacharias had passed away and all the stuff about him had come out. Um, Carl Lentz, you know, everything going on with him and Hill song had come out and like, that was crazy because at first it was just like Carl Lentz had an affair.
And the next thing you know, it's like, Oh, but Hill song has been doing all this stuff for decades. And so it just, which by the way, if you haven't heard, The Lance's podcasts. I highly recommend you check it out. Um, it's really cool to see what God's done in their story, but, [00:26:00] um, yeah, it, it, I'm going to say something and you can affirm whether or not this is true, but what it seemed like was, is the version of the people and the systems and the processes of our faith that you had put faith in for so long, uh, had proven to be untrustworthy.
And so your question became, where does the untrustworthiness stop? Is that fair to say? Yeah. So it went from this person who I trusted let me down to, well, could the church let me down to, could the Bible let me down to, could my feelings let me down? Like it just kind of was this house of cards, kind of this domino effect that started with one expression of the church being broken.
And then kind of perpetuating itself and from there and ultimately could like I I think did lead me to could God let me down and [00:27:00] I'm not gonna cry during this episode I've tried to make that commitment. But I mean, this is just real stuff. It's honest Um, I just looked back at my life and like could see God's faithfulness in so many moments.
Um, so I knew like if God was faithful then, and I trusted him to provide in times where I didn't know where provision was going to come from, then I can trust him now. Um, and I knew. Like the gift of the bible that he's given us to know him um And those like those are the two things that I just continue To go back to like I know [00:28:00] I can trust god and I know I can trust the word that he's given us Um, and why this is still a process?
Honestly is laziness um because I I haven't like continued to Like just read scripture and learn more about those ancillary things that I was talking about. Um, because I do feel like now there is a band aid on like this wound of, well, I can just, I can keep like doing the things and there's more joy in the things.
And when I tell people, like, I've seen God's faithfulness and like, talk about things like that. I feel it. Like, I really do mean it. Like, I think I came home one day and told you like, I know God was faithful in this and I keep telling people that but man, I just feel like a recording that like I keep playing Yeah, and um I just don't really like I don't truly feel this [00:29:00] like it just like I felt like I was wearing a mask and like Just truly faking it.
I had this this recording that I could just hit play and be like, oh man god's been so faithful but like Really not feeling it. You knew all of the, yeah, the Christian isms and you'd been in the water long enough. You knew how to, you knew what you had to say to make it through a Sunday morning.
Um, but now like, now I realize like, I guess the weight of like, why now? Like why have this conversation now? Um, Is like in two parts. I mean, we've like, if you've listened to previous episodes, we've been talking, I think a lot about like, we could put under the umbrella of apologetics and, um, talking about our faith and, uh, to other people.
Um, And I've just felt more and more challenged [00:30:00] of, man, you struggled so much to, like, defend the faith to yourself. And now, like, you're not putting in the work to, like, be able to defend the faith, like, for someone else, like, to be able to talk about that. And, like, one of the thoughts I keep going back to is, like, if we're gonna base entire life on this belief and we have the Bible, then why, why am I not like just consuming that and knowing like everything that's in there?
Um, and the second part. You're fine. You're doing great. The second part that, um, makes this extra heavy is having a child. Like knowing we're about to bring a child into this world and we're going to bring them up in the church and [00:31:00] teach them these traditions. Um, I don't want them to have to like, I mean, they, they will, I feel like inevitably they will, um, have their moment where they question why, why are we doing this?
What is this all about? Um, but how do we like raise them, uh, To be able to navigate that and I was thinking back to our um, Family value episode and I think we talked about like thinking critically. Where was that somewhere?
We have him up on a board in our office and morgan's looking for it and catching my breath. Yeah
It was towards like seven or eight. I feel it's okay to be wrong I don't know. I don't remember. It's okay. I'll just cut all this out But you can just keep going on the [00:32:00] general idea
But we talk about this idea of like thinking critically and I think that's That is in this episode in this conversation when I'm trying to like get after is there is something beautiful about tradition and
Believing what we believe But also that like critical thinking element of why do we do this? I want to add a couple of notes to this really quick before we move on to the next little thing But you know one, you know, we talked to last week about being in a bubble And, uh, a few, not a few weeks ago this past weekend, we went to a friend's baby shower.
And we're there and we meet this couple there who they [00:33:00] were Jewish. Um, they were older. I mean both retired and uh, The guy who's you know, the husband who was hosting the baby shower Um, I remember this Jewish guy turned to him and asked him he's like, so how do you know all these people? He's like, oh we all go to church together or whatever He's like, oh all these people go to your church and the guy points at me and he's like, yeah, Aaron's, you know, one of the pastors there.
And the guy's like, but you're so young. How can you be a pastor? You know, whatever. But he's like him and his wife started asking questions and like genuinely these two people had no frame of reference for what church was. It was like. It was almost funny, like the rest of us that were there, like they would ask questions and we laughed because we were like, I've never, and it wasn't like we were laughing at them, it was just, man, we've never had anybody ask this question before, like, like, have you driven by, like, you live in the South, man, like, have you never seen, but talking to someone who is, to use the language from last week, outside of the bubble, um, man, it was a really good for [00:34:00] me to like, think of like, dude, how do you explain your faith to someone like that?
Yeah. You know, how do you explain your faith to someone who doesn't? And then do you know it well enough? And can you articulate it clearly enough? Um, and confidently enough to someone who has no frame of reference. I mean, dude, the stuff we believe is genuinely wild. Like to someone who has no frame of reference for church or anything like that, like this guy, you know, he, again, we were at a party, but he was like, yeah, I have a friend who keeps telling me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in Jesus.
He's like, Yeah, but that's not true, right? I'm like, dude, you're really killing the vibe here at this party. Um, but yeah, like to that guy to try to explain that it's super fascinating. So, um, that's one side of it. Um, I'm probably gonna end up cutting all of that, but there was one other thing I wanted to talk about.
I don't know. Maybe we'll just cut it there. I don't know. I, all I did right there was just make extra editing work for myself. I'm just going to cut all [00:35:00] that.
So really what I think you're, what you're ultimately what you're talking about here is how do we learn to. Examine our faith. And I think this is so important for people to recognize because we all have a worldview handed to us, right? This is kind of nature versus nurture stuff. Uh, your worldview is shaped both by both by your nature and by your nurture.
Um, so, you know, really the culture and the society that you're brought up in, as well as what is it that you're being taught? The thing is, is all of those things need to be examined. And I think this is. Again, we don't have a lot of answers for this. This is a process that, is it fair to say you're still going through?
Oh yeah. Actively. So there's not going to be a, you know, a clear conclusion, um, probably to a lot of this conversation, but I do think what we need to recognize in what we're going to see here in this next segment, when we take a [00:36:00] look at scripture, is that. Faith was never meant to be blind faith. I think that's what a lot of people assume Christians have that usually is the idea of, Oh, you're not smart enough, or, um, you're not intelligent enough, or you're not book smart enough, or you don't know enough science.
And that's the reason why you're a Christian. Well, no, it's not a blind faith. It actually is an informed faith. And this isn't a conclusion that we come to on our own. This isn't the idea of like, Oh, we have decided because we live in an intellectual society that we need to be well informed as we're about to look at here in the next couple of passages of scripture, the Bible always presents faith as an informed thing, not just a, you believe cause you should, or because your parents believed or whatever, there is, um, a sense of informing that happens that ultimately shapes our faith.
I feel all right. I'm not going to look at how [00:37:00] long that was. It was fun. It was long, but it's okay. I think it's fine. Would you be cool doing the like soft intro with me? I think we just kind of do it kind of conversationally and then we'll get to it, but we'll do that at the very end.
Um, typically I kind of own the Bible portion. Do you want me to keep doing that? Or is that okay? Cool. And you just kind of chime in and yeah, give some stuff on this. And then I'll hit it with the practical application. There you go. Shun not shuns. Is there anything else we need to address? I thought you haven't already.
No, I was looking at the list and
We didn't get into this stuff about progressive Christianity, but yeah that that feels like a separate conversation, too I think it can be and we didn't talk about Deconstructing. Mm hmm. I was gonna say something like when you said like examine like, you know We can examine without [00:38:00] like tearing the whole thing down but That could potentially fall in the practical application to or if you want to stick it in there after act 17 You It's probably a good place for it as well.
Okay. So,
so, this next portion is, it's always Fascinating. Trying to
defend the Bible with the Bible, if that makes sense, or defend the faith with the faith, you know, but really what I hope this is for, like in your case, if there's anybody else who's listening, who's like you, who's like, man, I don't really know what I believe, but I do hold on to the fact that I believe God is real and I believe the Bible can be trusted.
Hopefully this is a benefit to that listener. Um, and to, to both of us as well. Um, sorry, my brain is just moving a little slow. So I'm kind of. Lulling into some of [00:39:00] this, but, um, but there are some passages in scripture that do set up a framework for, if you're the, if you are a person who would say, and admit, I feel like I have a blind faith, uh, I think it's safe to say that's not biblical.
Like biblically, um, we are not supposed to have a blind faith. We are supposed to have an informed one So there's a couple of passages I want to look at too one of them I added in here because It reminded me of what you were talking about earlier about like this is what I was raised believing and all this other sort Of stuff, you know, I think we've mentioned this, you know, it's so funny kind of the way that these groups of conversations happen We don't do like series or anything like that.
We did a little bit in season one um We never really plan on series. We just have conversation and we think, man, what's, what's, what are our next thoughts from that? You know, and it's just kind of, we've been following this kind of progression from this point. And so we ended up seeing a little bit of overlap in some of the passages that we look at, but we want to bring them back up for the [00:40:00] sake of reminding you.
I don't know if we brought this up or not. We might have in our family values episode, but, uh, Deuteronomy chapter six, you know, the, God is giving commands to the Israelites. And, uh, I'm not going to read the entire chapter, but starting in verse one, it does say, these are the commands, decrees, and regulations that the Lord, your God commanded me to teach you.
This is Moses talking to him. He says, you must obey them in the land. You're about to enter and occupy and you and your children and your grandchildren must fear the Lord, your God, as long as you live. Um, and so let me see, I'm going to scroll down a little bit here. Uh, verse four, listen, Oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord alone.
And you must love the Lord, your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength, and you must commit yourselves wholeheartedly to these commands that I am giving you today. Repeat them again and again to your children, talk about them when you were at home and when you were on the road, when you were going to bed and when you were getting up, tie them to your hands and wear them on your forehead as reminders, [00:41:00] write them on the doorpost of your house and on your gates.
We've talked about this passage a couple of times, um, but this is like, it's commanded to. Got to parents to godly parents to pass down a faith to their kids But again, this is not an uninformed faith So what you were talking about earlier Morkin was we do these things because this is how we've always done them But scroll down to verse 20.
I keep saying scroll. Obviously, I'm using my iPad if you don't you know You know What's funny was that you could say scroll down and that could have worked in biblical times when they actually had the scroll Yeah, so that scroll down and pick another scroll actually being super. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I only read directly from the Hebrew Yeah If you move down to verse 20
Look at what it says. It says, in the future, your children will ask you what's the meaning of these laws, decrees, and regulations that the Lord our God has commanded us to obey. So in this, this [00:42:00] is this moment when, when that kid comes up to you and goes, Mom, why do we do this? Why do we go to church every Sunday?
Why are we, why do we pray before bed? Why do we, I don't know, take anything that we do in Christian tradition, raise our hands during worship? Why do we take communion? Why do we go to baptisms? Why do we Whatever, fill in the blank, right? With all of these things that we questioned, which I think is kind of a point where you were, where you were just like, what's up with all of this stuff?
He says, in your future, your children will ask you these things. Why do we do these? And then verse 21, then you must tell them we were Pharaoh slaves in Egypt. But the Lord brought us out of Egypt with his strong hand. The Lord did miraculous signs and wonders before our eyes, dealing terrifying blows against Egypt and Pharaoh and all his people.
He brought us out of Egypt so he could give us this land. He had sworn to give our ancestors. This is before they go into the promised land. And the Lord, our guide commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear him so that he can continue to bless us and [00:43:00] preserve our lives as he has done to this day, for we will be counted as righteous when we all obey the commands of God.
The Lord our God has given us. So I just love this. I think this is so beautiful. God doesn't just say, Hey, do these things because I told you to. He gives them these things, but then he's like, one day your kids are going to ask you why you do this. And in that moment, you remind them of what God has done.
I love the idea that God never asked anything of us without first telling us what he's done for us. That's actually a very common theme in scripture. As you read through scripture, just be mindful of that. Before every command that we get, uh, almost always God will say, I'm the God who set you free from Egypt, or I'm the God who has called you apart for this or whatever.
So God always lets us know what he does for us first. Um, In this sense, the same rule applies for us today. God didn't deliver us from Egypt, but we know that this, what God said in the Israelites free is just a picture of what Jesus ultimately did for us on the cross. So mom, why do we go to [00:44:00] church? Why do we do baptisms?
Why do we sing songs? All of this sort of stuff. The idea behind it is so that when your kids ask, why do we do these things? You say, because Jesus set us free. We were once slaves. We were once dead, but now because of, because of what he's done for us, we honor everything that he's requested of us. Um, and that's the thing that I think a lot of us miss growing up.
I mean, maybe not, maybe we had some of that, but I don't know if it was necessarily as intentional as what's laid out here in this verse. I think there's another. I don't know if this belonged in our discussion, but or practical application. This is all a discussion Um, but as you were talking about like, you know, this is why we do what we do Thinking about our child who's going to be raised as a pastor's kid.
There's like Like another layer of this is your [00:45:00] job. And another, I guess, in a sense, like another layer of obligation, like they're probably going to feel like, Oh, we're at church all the time. You know, like this is dad's job and we have to be here. Why are we always here? And, um, yeah, I mean, this is just so good to point them back to of we do this because.
Jesus said this. It's all worship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, even in the moments like, I mean, I feel like maybe we've even like as a young married couple have like navigated the like you know, just the Feeling like you have an extra. Oh, I don't want to keep using the word obligation but there are these moments where I'm like, why do you have to keep like going to this thing or do you yeah, it just feels like yeah, there's times where my [00:46:00] Me being in ministry puts a strain on our relationship in our family.
Yeah You There, um, there've been plenty of nights where we want to hang out, but there's something going on at the church that I need to be a part of. That's real. And that's not saying there's anything wrong with those things, but yeah, some days you just don't feel like doing the stuff. Again, when that's your job, you don't necessarily have that luxury.
You know, if you don't feel like going to work, you can't just not show up. So. There's, there's that extra added layer for sure. The second passage that I want to look at, this is a little bit of a left turn. I just wanted to address that one point since you brought it up earlier. Uh, I love this one. This is Acts chapter 17, and we are going to start in verse 10.
Okay? Uh, so this is kind of during Paul's missionary journey. Um, and he reaches, um, this group of people in Berea. I believe I'm saying that right. Um, they're referred to as the Bereans. Bereans. However you, you know, prefer to say that. I'm not a language scholar. [00:47:00] So, you know, at least not yet. I'll take that class eventually.
Um, but starting at verse 10, it says that very night, the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. Uh, when they arrived there, they went to the Jewish synagogue and the people of Berea were more open minded than those in Thessalonica and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. So Paul comes in, Paul starts preaching.
They're like, man, this guy's good. We like Paul. But then look at what it says next. It says they searched the scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth. As a result, many Jews believed as did many of the prominent Greek men and women. And so I just like that because it's, it's a.
Man, I don't know a lot of people like the Bereans, you know, we had church this past weekend and our pastor had said something that was really funny where he was, you know, he's, you know, preaching and, you know, we were at a big church, we have the side screens and stuff. And so, you know, he's at that point where he's like, Hey, this is a passage we're about to read.
And you know, if you need it, it's up on the screens for you, whatever. But he took a moment where he said, you know, make sure [00:48:00] you bring your Bibles to church with you. Um, For two reasons one we don't want you to know that we want you to know that nothing we do up here is magic You know that um, all we're doing is observing the text and then explaining it Um, but he also said, you know You have to be able to stand on your own and trust that what i'm reading and what i'm saying is true The reality is as many people have been manipulated by someone in a a pulpit who has misrepresented scripture.
And so I love the heart of the Bereans. Like they hear Paul and they're like, man, Paul's cooking. But then they said, let's open up our Bibles. Let's look at the texts. Let's look at the scrolls. Let's scroll down and see, uh, oh man, that's a great merch thing right there. Scroll down. It's like a picture. I don't know.
There's something there. Um, but yeah, but I just love that. It's not a blind faith. It's not Paul said it. So we believe it. Paul said, it doesn't line up with what I see in the word of God. And then that's what I'm [00:49:00] going to, yeah, that's going to be my next step.
Um, we can go on and on about this. You know, first John chapter four, uh, John says that we are to, John says that we are to test the spirits. And really, this is just an idea of discernment that not everything that you hear is going to be, um, Actually, you know what? Let me just go ahead and read it. I'm sitting here talking about the importance of reading scripture for yourself.
And then I'm just like, I'm just going to paraphrase this thing, but let me hop on over to first John chapter four really quick.
And I'm just going to read this and really let this, this passage speak for itself starting in. Verse one, John writes, dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the spirit, you [00:50:00] must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God for there are many false prophets in the world.
This is how we know if they have the spirit of God. So if you're a person who's asking and trying to observe. Can I trust what someone is teaching me about the Bible? He says, if a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in the real body, came in a real body, that person has the spirit of God at the time, one of the big heresies of the day was that Jesus didn't come in the flesh.
That he was all spirit, uh, verse three. But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here. That idea is not necessarily this like Kirk Cameron left behind idea of the antichrist that a lot of us have in our minds.
It's more of the, the spirit that is against it is anti Jesus. [00:51:00] Anything that goes against what Jesus came to establish. Verse four. But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.
Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world's viewpoint, and the world listens to them. But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. This is how we know if someone has a spirit of truth or the spirit of deception. So again, like.
I think a lot of people think like, like people who aren't Christians, I think they look at Christians and think like the authors of the Bible are like magicians, like, Oh, I'm going to do all this stuff, but I'm not going to let you behind the curtain. I'm not going to let you see how I reached this conclusion.
I'm just going to say it and then you just accept it. But like even the authors of the Bible. John is like listen to what people say and then like actually examine it and see if there's Merit to it or not And then the last thing that I want to do this one I'm, not going to read because we're not going to read the entire [00:52:00] book of ecclesiastes But the book of ecclesiastes is a beautiful Picture of this.
It's a book of wisdom. You find it in the old Testament and it follows the musings of, um, the author who goes by the teacher. And in the end of Ecclesiastes, after having tried everything the world has to offer. Money, sex, fame, food, alcohol, like tries the whole bit, tries everything. After going on this journey of discovery, the teacher in Ecclesiastes says that here's the conclusion of the matter to fear God and obey his commands.
That is a conclusion that the author reaches, but that comes after they've tried everything. Everything else the world has to offer. Here's what I'm not saying. I'm not saying try everything the world has to offer first. Some people are like, I'm about to go full prodigal son. I'm going to go out and try everything there is under the sun.
And [00:53:00] then God, I'll get back at you after I've tried everything else to see if anything else works. No, but. What he, what the author of Ecclesiastes is doing is a, it's a thoughtful examination. It's a thoughtful evaluation of I've pursued everything else and everything else has left, let me down. And man, I just think there's something about that, that, I mean, it screams John six after Jesus feeds the 5, 000 and you know, Jesus is like, I'm the bread of life.
And people like, ah, nah, we good on that. We're going to peace out. And then the Jesus looks at the disciples and he's like, y'all going to leave too? And I think it was Peter who said, I need to stop saying who said what, because when I'm wrong, then it's just recorded that I'm wrong on that thing. But one of the disciples turns to Jesus and says, where else are we going to go?
Only you, we know only you have the key to eternal life. And, uh, I mean, I think we all as believers need to come to that point [00:54:00] and it's okay to test God, like it's okay to not in the sense of like, okay, God, you got to prove yourself to me because I'm all high and mighty and what self righteous, but in the sense of like, God, if you're real, I trust, like, I'm, I'm going to try this out.
I'm going to try to follow you. I'm going to examine everything you've placed in front. I'm going to examine your word. I'm going to examine my personal relationship with you. God can handle it. God is not afraid of you going through the record books to see what his character is like. He can handle that.
It
was a whole lot of me, but it's fine. This episode is going to be different. Well, I think that's okay. And it's going to be as long as it is. That's a, you can add probably 1. 5 that time is about how long it's going to take to edit. [00:55:00] So we're, we're brushing up against the hour mark right now. So right now about an hour and a half to edit.
But it'll be okay Okay Yeah, yeah if we wrap up in the next 15 minutes the thing is is like I actually feel fine now The thing is is if I start editing I'm gonna like hyper fixate on it And then I'm not gonna stop until I'm done and so I'll be up till 3 a. m. so
All right, so practical applications. This is just kind of picking back up with your story after that, right?
So I hope that's helpful, man. I mean, the Bible, you know, again, it doesn't hold any punches. Um, God doesn't want you to not question or [00:56:00] ask questions or have doubts. Those things are totally okay. And I think they're a part of the experience. You know, it's, it's funny, man. You know, there's always kind of this idea that science is up against religion or scripture or whatever, but it, they kind of follow.
What was the scientific process? Is that what it is? You come up with a hypothesis and then you test it and then you make observations. I don't remember the exactly what it was, but like that same process, you're allowed to do that with your faith as well. You're allowed to ask questions of your faith.
Now here's where things get kind of dangerous is man. And maybe this is something that this might be our next conversation, because this is what I've seen happen a lot. And this is what I've seen in a lot of deconstruction stories. The moment I reach something that I can't explain, I throw the baby out with the bathwater.
As soon as I reach something that I can't get the answer to or I can't make sense of, I throw [00:57:00] everything out. I, I love the approach that you had earlier that you talked about how you said that you were like, well, I trust that God's real. So let me figure out what he's actually like. Um, I think too many times it's common for people to say, man, I just can't make sense of all the violence in the Old Testament.
So the Old Testament must not be true. So, yeah, uh, anyway, that's kind of my, let's, let's pick back up with you and with your story, Morgan. The practical application of this I feel like is going to be pretty personal to you. Um, so you've mentioned you're not done with this story, it's still kind of developing, but you've kind of gotten a couple of, you've gotten your grip on a couple of anchors, if that makes sense.
Um, But what's next? What's next for you? And what would you say? I guess whatever is next for you would also kind of double as your advice to someone else who is, um, maybe they're going through the same [00:58:00] process that you're going through, but maybe they're just a few steps behind in their journey. What would you say?
I think number one, if they, if they are a few steps behind, um, first coming to the realization that, It's okay to do this. Like you were just talking about, like, God's not scared of those questions. Um, I had a hard time even question, like even asking. The question, um, feeling okay to ask the question.
Feeling okay to even question like, is God real? Can we trust the Bible? Because that felt like I had lost my faith, um, that I had just like thrown 25 years of belief down the drain. Mm-hmm. . [00:59:00] Um, so yeah, being okay with asking those questions and knowing that like, you're, you're not throwing it all away. Um, it is going to make your faith stronger, your relationship with Jesus stronger.
I think God is going to not honor that more, but like, Just be excited that you have an even fuller knowledge of who he is. Um, and I think that can only lead you to more love for God. I think what you just said is key. There's kind of an underlying truth under what you just said. I think a lot of people head down this pathway looking for more knowledge.
And they're not looking for God. You know what I mean? Like, I think people set out on this journey of you gotta prove this to me. As opposed to I just need to learn to know God better, to spend time with God. And I think what happens [01:00:00] is, and I don't want to over characterize or anything, but I think what happens is we end up spending more time in books and intellectualism than we do just On our face before God silent in solitude saying Lord, I need you or God reveal yourself to me, you know We always try to do these things to fix the problems again This was this the the alternate title of this podcast could be if you're a husband and your wife is going through this how not to Handle it by Erin Nelson, but I remember for me like I just started like throwing a bunch of books your way Of like, Oh, you should read this one.
And this one talks about deconstruction and maybe this would be helpful for you. And maybe this video will answer some of your questions and stuff like that. And I remember in particular, there was one, there was one video I sent you from Bridgetown church and the guy, he was talking about deconstruction and he was like, okay, I'm Don't send this link to someone else and like expect this to fix their problems And I remember I [01:01:00] heard that and I was like listen this guy says not to send link But I really think you should listen to this because I really think it'll but like I and again I believe I was well intentioned in that and I hope you realize that that was I was trying to be well intentioned as well But man, probably the most beneficial thing for us to do would have been to just pray together more And to actually sit before God and to actually, yeah, bring those things to him and not just a bunch of other intellectuals who, I mean, stuff they had was super helpful, but.
Yeah. So my next thing is once you. Know that it's okay to ask why is to just keep asking why I think about a child who? But why but why but why and you get to the point where they can't ask why? Anymore, you've gotten to the like the thing why is [01:02:00] the sky blue and You give them a new, well, why does, I don't know why the sky is blue.
That was a horrible example. Um, there's probably something about like gases, atmosphere and the gases. Well, why did, why do those exist? And then you give them that answer. And eventually you get to the point where you can't ask why anymore. And you, and you've gotten to the answer. Um, So that, that's where I am.
Um, I keep asking why. Um, but interesting enough, like when you were talking about all these like resources, I kept asking why. And trying to get to an answer, but I was going to these like books written by people and like talks Like given by people and like I wasn't going to scripture Like I never like I mean I did but like my first stop Wasn't the Bible So, I think I'm somewhere in between like asking those why [01:03:00] questions and Just seeking scripture It's good Yeah, so that's probably my third application is like we got to get back to Scripture and knowing what's in it.
Um, and what it says and like that's where we Learn who god is. Yeah
um
one of the other lines in this song is Hell is not scared of a sunday faith if it only leads to empty praise Uh, what really makes darkness run is when the saints arise and praise and quiet You I'm going to read that line again, because when you mush it all together, sometimes you miss, miss the meaning, you know, um, what really makes darkness run is when the saints arise and praise in quiet [01:04:00] on Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday.
So it's that like, it's the every day, it's the every moment, it's the, it's the, in the quiet moments, it's seeking God in prayer and scripture and, um, yeah, it's not just doing the tradition because you've always done it, not just showing up on Sunday mornings and raising your hands because, you know.
That's what we've always done. Um, it's knowing like the why behind that, um, and practicing Monday through Saturday. Yeah. Oh, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah, man. There's so much. Yeah. Okay. I, this is going to be one of those conversations where the next conversation spawns out of this one for sure, because there's a lot of those moments that are kind of in here.
We'll go ahead and I [01:05:00] think get ready to wrap it up there. Do you have anything else that you want to add or maybe just, um, an encouragement or, um, yeah, just kind of maybe something that this is like a virtual time capsule for you of like, Hey, this is where I'm at right now, but here's where I want to be X amount of time from now.
Do you want me to mention this like Bible in a year idea that I have? You can, if you want for the accountability, you can, if you want.
So. If, like, future me comes back and listens to this episode, I would hope that approximately a year from now that I've actually read the entire Bible. Um, and an idea that has come out of this conversation, prepping for this conversation, [01:06:00] uh, was, Doing like a Bible in a year podcast or like episodes going through the Bible in a year.
Um, I'm hesitant to talk about that because anytime we do, like, say something about, like, a series or Oh, gosh, yeah. We, like, fall off the face of the earth. Um, or, um, it's every time I have an idea. Well, this episode was your idea and Here we are. Yeah, here we are. Hopefully, we're still recording, so we're good.
Uh, loses the audio. Ah, don't, please don't, gosh, please. It's so late and I'd be so mad if that were the case, but Um, so yeah, the, I, I want to, um, go through the Bible in a year. Um, and I think, you know, just in our very short conversation about it, like, it would be like an extra thing that we [01:07:00] would do. It wouldn't take the place of our weekly episodes, but be an ancillary, um, You and that word, that's such a good word.
Word of the day. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, just something extra. Um, I think it's this like layer of accountability that I need to motivate myself, um, to read. So we would break up the Bible into like weekly chunks and, uh, read it and walk away with two questions or like approach it with two questions and walk away with of what do I learn about God and What is he asking of me?
That's good. I'm just leaving a breaking case. I just had to cut that bit, but
even if we don't do that, Morgan, read your Bible. It's a good word. [01:08:00] Um,
I'll just go ahead and thank you, and we'll get ready to wrap up with this, okay? Sounds good. Morgan, I just want to thank you for your vulnerability, um, for your honesty, for your transparency. I know, man, you know, I know you better than probably anyone else who listens. I don't know if your parents listen.
Yeah. I think I know the current you, maybe. A little bit more and well, I at least know you through this process more than anyone else. I know you more as a podcast host than anyone else. And sometimes, um, and I'm not saying this to like put you on blast or anything like that, but sometimes for you, I know you're, uh, we, we both are.
We're cautious about what we put out into the world. via this platform. We're mindful of it. I'm, I'm [01:09:00] forever grateful that editing is a thing and that this isn't a live streamed podcast and that I can listen back to things that we say, and, you know, sometimes cleaned up and make sure there's no, you know, misunderstanding and stuff, which I'm sure there are from time to time, but, um, I know you care a lot about, um, uh, Perception, image, not in a bad way.
You know, we all care about our reputation in some way or another. So your willingness to be open and honest and vulnerable, um, and transparent through this, um, I just want to say thank you for that because I do think it's something that's going to be a blessing, not just to your own process, but it's been helpful for me in some way, this has kind of been like a therapy session for me as well to be like, man, I really didn't haven't been like loving you and serving you well.
Through some of this and so to be able to look back at some of that and reflect on it has been really helpful for me, but also my prayer is that it would be helpful for other people who, again, are perhaps going through this exact same thing. So, um, thank you for that. Appreciate that. It [01:10:00] helps that I did not know that this episode was going to turn into.
Vulnerable time with Morgan. A confession, yeah. All I said was, Morgan, what's been up? And you're like, let me tell you what's been up. No, that's really good. So, hey, listen, if this is you, if you feel like you have, uh, can relate to some of the things we've talked about today, we're here for you. Um, we don't have things all figured out by any means, but man, if there's anything that we can do, that would be helpful or any conversations that you'd like to have with anybody.
We don't want you to feel like you're on an island by yourself with this. Uh, so feel free to reach out to us. You can find us on Instagram. You can, um, at that's at true discipleship podcast. You can email us at true discipleship com. Um, Yeah, we're all just people trying to discover God together. And so if we can do that with you in any sense, um, or if you have any questions or anything like that, feel free to shoot them our way.
Not saying we'll have all the answers for you, but we want to walk through this thing together. I think it's the only shot that many of us have. So, um, We love [01:11:00] you guys. We wouldn't be this open and transparent if we didn't. Um, thank you for tuning in for another week of the true discipleship podcast. I said that with a really bouncy cadence and I'm still kind of doing it and I can't stop now, but here we go.
It's late. We need to get to bed. Um, yeah. On that note, uh, thank you again for listening. We love you guys. We will see you next time.
You'll see us. You'll see us next time. We won't see you.