Seth Fleischauer (00:00.834)
Hello everyone and welcome to Why Distance Learning, the podcast dedicated to exploring the transformative power of live virtual learning. Whether you're an educator integrating virtual experiences into your curriculum, a content provider creating impactful programs, or a leader shaping the future of distance learning, you'll discover practical strategies, innovative tools, and inspiring stories to enhance your practice. Each episode, we bring you insights from content providers, industry professionals, field experts, and educators.
who are driving innovation, engagement, and equity in education through live virtual learning. And this week, our guest is Casey, I almost had it. I almost had it. And this week, our guest is Casey Gaylord Opaleski. Casey, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
Allyson (00:39.308)
Yeah
Kasey GO (she/her) (00:50.462)
Thanks so much, Seth and Allison and Tammy. It's great to see you all.
Allyson (00:56.012)
Yay!
Seth Fleischauer (00:56.364)
We are, we are going to jump into your experience as an, a, an environmental science educator over distance learning, specifically your current experience at earth echo talking about oceans. but, first Tammy, could you please, do a proper introduction of Casey?
Tami Moehring (01:14.827)
I would be happy to. So Casey has been designing, developing and coordinating innovative digital programming for nonprofit organizations since 2002. She has over 20 years of on-year experience as an educator and moderator for virtual interactive lessons. Over the years, Casey has received innumerable accoloids for her lively and engaging marine science and conversation presentations. She specializes in teen programs as well as public programs for adults.
such as science cafes and professional development for educators and lifelong learners. Most recently, Casey co-authored Defining Interactive Virtual Learning and Museum Education, A Shared Perspective in 2019 and the Journal of Museum Education. Casey specializes in the interpretation and translation of scientific research concepts and utilizes strategic framing techniques to lead complex conversations.
such as those focused on climate change. She is an alumni member of the National Network for Ocean and Climate Change Interpretation, a year-long study circle that helps to bring climate change resources and training to communities of staff, volunteers, and professionals. Casey is a certified interpretive guide for the National Association for Interpretation and has been a certified instructor for the Florida Master Naturalist Program.
She is an active member of the National Marine Science Educators Association and the Florida Marine Science Educator Association. Casey has an extensive knowledge in developing inter-environmental curriculum, lesson plans and designing and coordinating travel exhibits. Casey has previously worked in the animal husbandry and rehabilitation fields, working with the Atlantic bottlenose dolphins, African penguins, California sea lions,
Allyson (02:52.621)
you
Tami Moehring (03:08.325)
pygmy, sperm whales, rough toothed dolphins, and various species of turtles, of sea turtles, I should say. originally hails from North Dakota and holds a BA in biology from Minnesota State University, Moorhead, a graduate certificate in coastal studies, and a master's in environmental education, both from Nova Southeastern University. Casey currently lives in Southwestern Florida with her husband and two rescue Siberian huskies.
She loves to spend time reading and doing anything outdoors, especially hiking, paddling and camping. Casey, welcome to the show, I should say, after all that great things about you.
Seth Fleischauer (03:49.78)
You
Allyson (03:50.008)
Yeah.
Kasey GO (she/her) (03:51.376)
That was a bit ridiculous. hi, thank you. You know what's funny is...
Allyson (03:56.067)
You do all the things.
Seth Fleischauer (04:00.184)
Those poor huskies, how are they doing in Florida?
Kasey GO (she/her) (04:03.63)
do you want, mean, I could show you them. They're both currently sitting, laying, sleeping on my lanai. Florida term for a porch. But they are currently on my lanai resting and enjoying the beautiful weather that we have right now because it is about mid seventies. Sorry, Tammy, so much, but yeah, they're great. They've, you know.
They're huskies. Their coat is kind of like a Columbia jacket. Like it can keep you cool, but it can keep you warm.
Allyson (04:40.44)
Hmm.
Seth Fleischauer (04:41.773)
Good plug for Columbia will add their their web store in our show notes. Casey, I'm struck by the fact that like you are taking something very complex, which is scientific research, you're sort of putting it through one lens of like, do I translate this and interpret this into something that the gen pop can can
Allyson (04:43.79)
Hahaha!
Kasey GO (she/her) (04:43.882)
All weather jacket, maybe I'll just say an all weather jacket.
Seth Fleischauer (05:08.172)
can absorb, right? So kind of like the, the like, you know, Neil deGrasse Tyson sort of like, know, super complex thing. Let me, let me put it in simple terms. You've got another lens here where you are also working, with teenagers, right? So that's like a further lens of like, okay, now I, now I take what the gen pop can, can, can take. And now let me put it through a lens for teenagers. And then you have another lens where you're putting it through an actual lens of a camera and communicating it over distance learning.
Kasey GO (she/her) (05:12.98)
Yes.
Seth Fleischauer (05:37.432)
I'd love to kind of unpack all of those lenses, how you take it from this, you know, super dense, rich content all the way to something that can be absorbed by teens over distance learning. think maybe first we do a little bit of a backup and tell us like a quick overview about Earth Echo International, what you guys do, what the work is, and then we can kind of unpack why it works.
Kasey GO (she/her) (06:02.024)
Yeah, absolutely. So, of just touching on myself and this will obviously feed into kind of talking about all those lenses and interpretation techniques, because that's really what it boils down to is reading your audience and being able to interpret a complex issue or topic and making it digestible for them and understandable and relatable for them as well. And that definitely comes in with the team.
but as Tammy had mentioned, I'm from North Dakota. but I've always gravitated towards the oceans when I was younger. Of course, we didn't have internet or anything like that. So I would go to the library and I would always get books by Jacques Cousteau and other oceanographers like Dr. Eugenie Clark. And I would look to these people who were bringing the ocean and
the amazing life that lives there into a medium that I could digest and I had available to me, which was usually picture books. Side note, I would always get paranormal books about ghosts, Loch Ness Monster, cryptos. I love all that kind of stuff. So I really just kind of gravitated towards these things that interested me, even though they weren't
Allyson (07:08.844)
Yes! Yes!
Seth Fleischauer (07:09.112)
which we were discussing exhaustively before we started recording here today. Yes.
Allyson (07:16.823)
Kasey GO (she/her) (07:26.374)
around me, if that makes sense. If I was nowhere near the ocean growing up and I've just always had this drive. I need to live and work near the ocean or work for the ocean somehow. And everybody, even like a college boyfriend used to say, there's no dolphins in Montana. Cause I did my undergrad in Montana. And like, yeah, I understand. Yes, get it. I get it. So just having that connection to
Allyson (07:46.478)
Excuse me, sir.
Kasey GO (she/her) (07:54.834)
These things do not exist in my everyday life was super important to make me understand the power of distance learning and how you can bring things, whether it be a charismatic mega fauna that lives in the ocean or the ocean itself. You can bring those things to people who aren't anywhere near it and make it relevant for them. and hopefully connecting those dots will help them to take their own action. So,
To where I am right now, I work at Earth Echo International. We're an environmental nonprofit. We've been around for close to 20 years. We envision a world where every individual from all backgrounds and experiences has the opportunity and tools to create a healthy and thriving environment. So our mission is to build a global youth movement to protect and restore our ocean planet, which is a critical part.
of creating a sustainable and equitable future for all. So we do our work in a variety of ways. Kind of the two focus audience that we have are the adults that work with young people, like teachers and educators. And that's where a lot of my work comes in. And then also working directly with young people. I also, of course, have a heavy foot in that as well with our work here at Earth Echo, because we have a lot of
ambassador programs where we work directly with young people. We have a youth leadership council. I also organize, coordinate, and manage a international STEM contest here at Earth Echo. So I work directly with those youth, those teens to make a difference in their community. So an important thing to note is who I work for. So as I mentioned growing up, I would gravitate towards books by Jacques Cousteau and Dr. Eugenie Clark.
so previous to Earth Echo, I worked at Moat Marine Laboratory and Aquarium, which is in Sarasota, Florida. And that organization was founded by Dr. Eugenie Clark. So I was able to meet one of those invisible mentors that I had when I was a little girl. And now I work for Philippe Cousteau Jr., who is the grandson of Jacques Cousteau. so things have kind of come full circle in my professional career in meeting these larger than life.
Kasey GO (she/her) (10:18.578)
incredible influences on society and especially ocean conservation. So I'm really grateful for that.
Seth Fleischauer (10:27.03)
Shout out to episode one with Jason Robertshaw of Mote Marine Laboratory. Go back and listen to that.
Kasey GO (she/her) (10:30.538)
Yeah
Allyson (10:31.278)
Casey and Jason, we're such a dynamic team.
Kasey GO (she/her) (10:33.386)
Please do. Yes, Jason is the yin to my yang and I miss him every single day at work. Hi, Jay.
Allyson (10:43.03)
Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer (10:45.713)
Yeah, I can imagine you guys were a pretty dynamic team. So, okay, so with Earth Echo, you're not your some of your stuff is directed to students, but oftentimes you're also working with teachers. Let's talk about that like in lifelong learners as well. Let's talk about that interpretation piece, right? So like, how are you taking some of this like rich science content?
and making it digestible. And the reason I ask is because this is something that I think a lot of teachers, regardless of their subject matter, it's something that they need to do in order to be able to take something that, you know, perhaps they learned about at a higher level, they have a deeper understanding of. It's not always obvious about how to interpret that for an audience that doesn't necessarily have that same experience with the content. So what is your approach and how do you do it, maybe specifically in the, in the online setting?
Allyson (11:36.878)
And I wonder if I could add on to that question too, because I think it's great to think about the teachers that are in the classrooms or in the different learning settings with the students and supporting them. But you have such an awesome opportunity to also speak to the content provider side, how using that on-camera lens and being able to interpret based on collection, how that also wraps into your process or has added to kind of thinking about your process or approach in online teaching.
Kasey GO (she/her) (12:05.63)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think one thing that is really important when you're working with teachers and educators, whether it be a teacher in a formal classroom setting who has a group of students for maybe 25 minutes, maybe if they're lucky, they might have a 90 minute block, but also, you know, if they have 20 minute class.
25 minute class periods, they're siphoning, you know, seven, eight, nine class periods throughout the day. Or if we're even talking about an educator at an informal institution, like a museum or an aquarium, they might see a group of teens, if they're lucky, they have a consistent group that they might see twice a month. I used to manage the high school internship program where I was lucky enough to foster these relationships with these amazing young people and we would go on trips and we had them for a full year.
But in actuality, a lot of times they're coming in for summer camp. They're maybe there for four hours a day, or it's an afterschool program. So thinking about the lack of time that educators and teachers have, I think is super important when someone is providing information, whether it be through an online asynchronous course, or whether you're an educator coming in, you're actually zooming into that classroom for 20 of those 25 minutes.
And boom, you've got to make your mark. You've got to get your points across. So time is of the essence, of course, when you're thinking about designing things. So thinking about it in the fact of different learning levels as well. Does everybody have the baseline knowledge? Well, I don't know, and I only have 20 minutes with them. So we're going to make sure everybody has this baseline knowledge. We're going to bring things down to a level that's understandable.
to that, whether it be a grade level or even for teachers, what might their knowledge be? Maybe it's a math teacher that got pulled in to teach science. Those things happen. And so trying to think about it in peeling back the layers, taking the complexity out of science, and especially if you're looking at a piece of scientific research and you're trying to talk about maybe how a scientist studies sharks, how do you peel that back and make it as foundational as possible, but then
Kasey GO (she/her) (14:24.5)
quickly build upon it. And in doing that, making sure you're staying engaging so they're excited to learn about it. And when you're on camera doing that, that's one of the, for me, that's one of the easiest things. I get really excited about a lot of stuff. We talk about sharks, I'm excited. We talk about anglerfish, I'm excited. We talk about squids having a donut shaped heart. I'm excited, like what's happening? Or actually it's not a donut shaped heart. bleep that out. It is a donut shaped brain.
Allyson (14:41.23)
You
Seth Fleischauer (14:48.184)
You
Kasey GO (she/her) (14:54.55)
so thinking about all those different things that's easy to do if you're excited about something somebody else is, but how can you get that across? Say, if you're just creating a course that's online where nobody's talking to me, we're not having an exchange. They're just digesting this information. So I think it's important to find things that are relevant to bring in different types of media that.
Seth Fleischauer (14:55.884)
Hahaha
Kasey GO (she/her) (15:23.464)
might get them excited, whether it be we're looking at a community that might be in, we're looking at a community that might be theirs. And we're using that lens to talk about say, seaweed farming. So just keeping excitement going, make sure you're covering the basics. Make sure everybody's on that level set. Here's where we are. Let's all get this knowledge together and let's build upon that knowledge.
And making sure there's the storyline. And this is what's been really important throughout my entire career is making sure that there's an overarching story. We start from A and we're going to get to Z no matter the path we take. And that Z is where the you comes in. How can you take action? Why does this matter to you?
So making it relevant no matter where they're at. So I live in Southwest Florida now. Sure, the ocean is 10 minutes from my house. But if I'm talking to a classroom in North Dakota, those students may have never seen the ocean. They might not ever see the ocean. The closest body of water they have is the Missouri River. So how can we make that relevant to them and make sure it connects? Because I think that disconnect
in caring about our environment, because that's what my career is based on, caring about the environment and taking action for the environment, we need to connect it to the why. Why do you care? Why should you care? And what can you do?
I think I took that question in an opposite direction and I have no idea.
Allyson (17:03.904)
No, you're just so amazing, so powerful. And the energy that you bring to your work with environment and ocean is your passion. then the reason I've always loved being able to learn from you is also your connection to distance learning, the medium, and connecting back to the passion that drives you, that connects you to.
Kasey GO (she/her) (17:08.682)
Okay.
Allyson (17:27.438)
your younger life, what you wanted access to that you still were like, I know I'm still gonna do this, but hey, for those that may not even be able to make it to a library space or a space to read a book, that look, we have this available. And I also love because you helped define certain terms within the distance learning space, which was a really awesome.
Kasey GO (she/her) (17:38.537)
Yeah.
Allyson (17:52.335)
opportunity because within the distance learning umbrella the asynchronous and the synchronous experience when together it are such a beautiful beautiful Opportunity to have that live experience that set up or is extended But it's also sometimes especially prior to the digital pivot We found that it was harder to define all the fun ways to work with the different experts that are doing different things within their fields and I wonder
You wrote the article, Defining Interactive Learning, a Shared Perspective. And I wonder, using how you think about how you break down content for individuals when you're motivating them for science, how did that work to your research in distance learning and helping define those terms?
Kasey GO (she/her) (18:42.373)
that's a good question.
I pull so much thinking back, gosh, Alison, can we talk about this for a second? So Alison was my editor for that article and my world. That article, it was crazy, but I'm so grateful. Yes, I love it. And I'm so grateful you pulled me into that, but thinking back.
Allyson (18:53.742)
2019, I know.
Seth Fleischauer (19:00.28)
you
Allyson (19:02.702)
What was I, what a crazy silly thing I was doing then. We did the whole issue.
Kasey GO (she/her) (19:14.186)
us writing that article. remember us sitting there and connecting. And this was before, what did you call it? The digital, what did you just say? The digital pivot. Yeah. This was before that really before this happened. Cause it was pre COVID and then COVID hit type of thing. And sitting down and even within say CILC's professional learning community, like
Allyson (19:24.408)
The digital pivot. The digital pivot, yeah.
Kasey GO (she/her) (19:43.312)
all of us just racking our brains of how do we explain this to people of what we're doing? Like, how do we explain this? And I started working in this field when Zoom wasn't a thing. The internet was barely a thing and we had to use ISDN lines to connect with schools. And they were like actual lines in the ground. And now that concept is so funny because we spent so many years trying to figure out how to...
explain to people what it is that we did and how we did it, how this medium worked. And now since this digital pivot, we have the opposite of like, can't even, people can't even imagine, wait, you had to use phone? What does a phone line like, they can't even imagine that zoom didn't. Yeah, like it's really crazy. So I remember Alison sitting in meetings with you and
Allyson (20:30.286)
That's Chromakey technology!
Kasey GO (she/her) (20:40.072)
We were like, what are the big things that are issues? Why can't we easily explain this? What are the hurdles? What is the vocabulary that everybody's getting tripped up on? And I remember talking about, do we call it distance learning, digital learning, virtual learning, like all these sorts of things. this vocabulary still exists, of course, but hopefully that article steered.
folks in certain directions to be like, okay, these are the defining terms and this is how we can explain how we use this medium and can use it effectively. And it doesn't have to, I also remember back then, especially like in the early aughts, it was such a huge conversation of distance learning replacing actual field trips or actual time outside.
And that was so incredibly frustrating because it was like, no, no, this is just a different, we're just trying to meet you where you're at. Like, don't you understand? We're just trying to meet you where you're at. We're not supposed to, we're not trying to take away from getting students out in a park in nature or getting them to an aquarium to see the actual sharks. We're just trying to bring that to them. And that was an incredibly frustrating hurdle. I think that.
I hate to say COVID did us any favors, but if COVID did us any favors, was definitely making distance learning being understandable to everybody else out there. They now know what it's like to zoom with someone and take a class online and they see the value in it. And it's funny because now here we go again with these opposite conversations. Why do we have to come together for a meeting? Why can't we just zoom? And I'm like,
Yeah, exactly.
Allyson (22:32.238)
You're like, welcome back to 2019. I wish you were all there during those sessions. my goodness. Those were some of the best conversations because it really was an up end. What was really awesome about your article that you wrote with Linda O'Leary too, that it was you really went out and talked to the different colleagues, peers, different field specialists. So it wasn't just one.
Seth Fleischauer (22:32.8)
Hehehehe
Kasey GO (she/her) (22:35.144)
Welcome back! Welcome back!
Seth Fleischauer (22:37.592)
You
Allyson (22:56.448)
view, one perspective. That's why I loved when you came up with a shared perspective because your goal was really talking about the live distance learning medium that then was allowed to, it was a step to unifying an opportunity to say, hey, whether it's science or history, here is an opportunity to know a community, a vocabulary, and also an opportunity to check out some frameworks that could work for you no matter your content, which I thought is such a powerful thing you helped build.
Kasey GO (she/her) (23:24.104)
And I think too, I'm sorry. I was just going to say that that shared perspective, I think that idea occurred so early on because we were sitting there thinking this conversation can't happen with just three of us. We need to have a collective behind this. If we're going to try and define this field, we need everybody in it. And so we had, gosh, I wish I could remember. bet I have records of everyone we interviewed. my God.
Seth Fleischauer (23:24.344)
What were some of the, I'm sorry, go.
Allyson (23:52.354)
Yes!
Kasey GO (she/her) (23:53.95)
There was at least 25, 30 folks that were content providers. We even interviewed some teachers that had used video conferencing. I'll use the throwback term video conferencing as a regular thing in their classroom because they found that value in it. And I will tell you, some of the, well, here comes a golden moment, right? Some of those teachers, like there was a high school teacher and I miss her so
Allyson (24:17.986)
Yay!
Kasey GO (she/her) (24:22.57)
Ms. Bunker in New York, but she had a marine science class and she would connect with us and by us this was back when I was working at Moat Marine Laboratory with the then program that was called C-TREC. She would connect with C-TREC specific times in her curriculum because she's like I don't want to six squid dissections during this day and I only have these kids for 35 minutes a piece.
Will you virtually do it for us? And so back when I worked with Jason at Moat, he and I would sit down and we did customize programs for her, which was not very common for us to do, but we knew that we would be touching those students multiple times a year. And so we found that value of, yes, we're going to take a little extra time and we're going to develop a squid dissection program that can fit in a 35 minute time slot and do this for Ms. Bunker because she is someone who shows up
She finds value in this medium. And so let's use it to our advantage. again, tangents, maybe can we call this episode KGOs tangents? I don't know. I feel like that's what I'm
Allyson (25:33.48)
No. Brilliance, you're brilliance.
Seth Fleischauer (25:36.024)
I want to back up a little bit to a previous tangent because what were the terms that you guys were defining in that article and how has the knowledge around distance learning changed and shifted from what you wrote in that article to what we have now after pivoting during the digital pivot of COVID and now being on the other side of it?
Kasey GO (she/her) (25:42.494)
you
Kasey GO (she/her) (26:04.082)
My editor is now looking at the article.
Allyson (26:06.478)
I was gonna say, so we'll link everything. This article's wonderful. The journal, it's the Journal of Museum Education. It's a volume that was dedicated to virtual visits that we put that I put together as a guest editor. And Casey, you can hear her passion. So obviously just being able to talk to her and learn from her. And one of my mentors, Linda O'Leary, they came together and were able to think of the shared perspective and who else would you want to define the terms?
Seth Fleischauer (26:06.808)
Hehehehehe
Allyson (26:35.47)
The terms that at that time were being defined were what do we call distance learning to be different than asynchronous and synchronous? There was the conversation about at that time point-to-point, multi-point, remote. And there also are definitions in the article. The other really fun thing about the article that was across the journal is that everybody has a question that leads their section. So you actually, Casey and
Casey and Linda pulled out specific questions that they then answered to provide the different definitions that you can see here. And we can put those again in the show notes.
Seth Fleischauer (27:13.944)
Great. So what about this update? Because one of the things you said, is that people now see the value. And I guess I somewhat dispute that, because I think some people definitely see the value. A whole lot of people were just going through triage, let's get through today. Today might be the last day we do distance learning. We don't know. So why would we invest in it to make it something that is actually going to be good?
We also found that like a lot of at least in my local district in Portland like that, you know, I was like, hey guys, I raised my hand was like, hey guys, I know how to do this really well. Do you guys want to like learn from me? And they were like, no. They basically were, you know, because they had an entire staff of people that weren't working. Right. So they're like, why would we engage outside if we were like, when we can just like these people need something to do, we're just going to have them.
reinvent the wheel, whereas the people who've been in it for 20 years are like, we know what this wheel looks like. so a lot of people, yeah, preaching to the choir here. Yeah, preaching to the choir here. But like one of the reasons we started this podcast was because we feel that there's some misconceptions around distance learning that were developed during the pandemic and we are doing our best to like, you know, make it real.
Kasey GO (she/her) (28:15.754)
Thank
Allyson (28:19.758)
back to 2019 conversations too.
Kasey GO (she/her) (28:34.218)
Yes.
Seth Fleischauer (28:37.336)
for people and like help them understand exactly what this is, what it's for, what the value is, why you should be open to it if maybe you thought, hey, I did that during COVID, it sucks. That was a COVID thing. I'm never doing that again. So like, what would you, what would you say to that person about like what you think they, know, because you don't want to demean their experience. They had a bad experience. That's, that's valid, right? But so like, what is different between what they did, what we do, and like, how can you bring some truth to this conversation?
Kasey GO (she/her) (28:50.538)
That's true.
Kasey GO (she/her) (28:57.193)
Right.
Kasey GO (she/her) (29:06.77)
Gosh, that is such... my God. How long do we have to unpack this, right? It's so much that kind of went through my brain and to come a little bit full circle back to kind of interpreting complex issues and topics, just because you understand... I'm so sorry for any of the scientists that might be listening to this podcast, but...
Allyson (29:16.654)
You
Kasey GO (she/her) (29:35.65)
I have met a lot of scientists who are extremely knowledgeable. They are the go-to expert in their field. Just because they know that topic inside and out and maybe have named a shark or two or maybe have named a squid or two does not mean you can teach other people about it. That is such an important thing that constantly infuriates me of not everybody can be a teacher.
Seth Fleischauer (29:36.546)
Hahaha
Seth Fleischauer (29:52.696)
You
Kasey GO (she/her) (30:05.48)
Just because you know how to engineer a solar panel does not mean you can teach somebody else how to do that. And I think educating, teaching, and interpreting is so underwhelmingly looked at as...
I mean, I'm find words here, but I think the value of being able to teach, interpret, being able to teach and interpret over a medium like video is grossly misunderstood and not everybody can do it. so I think, and thinking back into the day of like when I started in this field very, very early, I'm gonna old myself, but back in 2002 when
Allyson (30:52.334)
You
Kasey GO (she/her) (30:56.574)
The internet, connecting over the internet, Zoom wasn't invented, connecting over the internet was not a thing. We had to use these big phone lines to connect with classrooms and other sites. Being able to connect over that and to not be an incredibly boring talking head and make sure that people were actually listening to you and interacting with you and.
Allyson (31:15.118)
Hahaha
Kasey GO (she/her) (31:22.344)
Taking that medium, using the tool of that medium to be interactive, that's the wheel of death. If somebody doesn't use this tool as being interactive, they're gonna have a terrible experience with it. It's not great. Why wouldn't you just watch a YouTube video then? So I think like in the pandemic, especially Seth, like you mentioned that so many people had such a terrible experience.
School children were expected to connect with their teachers over it. Their teachers had no idea how to use it and how to make it interactive. And folks that were in that field for 20 plus years, and those folks I'm looking at their faces right now, we came in and said, we can teach you techniques to make this very effective. Are you in? And Seth, like you said, they're like, no, why would we do that?
We have people here not working. And I think it just runs parallel with there are experts in this field who can have a very interactive conversation and exchange and deliver an interactive program and educational experience. It runs parallel with that whole adage of, well, I'm a scientist. I know the science inside and out.
I'm gonna teach, I'm gonna talk to the third graders about this. But you don't have that training. That's not where your expertise lies. And I think a lot of people have a really hard time admitting or even seeing, I actually don't know how to teach. I don't know how to teach someone. And it comes down to those communication skills, reading your audience.
Seth Fleischauer (32:49.931)
Not the third graders.
Kasey GO (she/her) (33:10.41)
And especially like when COVID hit and everybody all of a sudden went online and all the content providers that have been doing this for years and have perfected this craft. That was a very strange time because we all sat there like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we've been here forever. And now here comes everybody else. They're taking advantage of it, but they're doing a not so great job.
And now it's giving all of us this bad rap, if you will, like that people aren't gonna wanna connect over this anymore now.
Seth Fleischauer (33:45.485)
Yeah.
Allyson (33:48.622)
This is the best, this is such a great medium. And I also think that goes to the research that you were doing. The reason that we were pushing for this is this was a topic that would come up, the defining, how do we step out? How do you have people understand that there is a framework prior to 2020? That's what's in this article that was published in 2019. So this is research that was needed. We looked really hard at the field and said, what are those gaps?
Seth Fleischauer (33:48.856)
you
Kasey GO (she/her) (34:03.498)
Yeah.
Allyson (34:15.448)
that are there that people are, that are helping people misinterpret what this version of distance learning could be, or maybe just be able to dive deeper into it or trust it a little bit more. And so that's why it's interesting to say the technology, you know, is a trend and that's the vehicle, but the framework as you've spoken to so beautifully, Casey, is really where you're able to find that stability. And I think that that's a lot of the...
The challenge that came in 2020 for people that built those up was like, hey, they're here. You don't have to create the wheel. Like it can be applied and shared. So it is interesting. But yeah, just such groundbreaking things you were doing right before 2020.
Kasey GO (she/her) (34:59.814)
It was, really hard to think of that time too and to reflect on it. And Alison, you and I had conversations of like, let's make some money. Let's try and make some money. Like, you know?
Seth Fleischauer (35:02.645)
So I.
Allyson (35:11.094)
Yeah. And then we were both like, we could do this. And all of a sudden it was like, my gosh, we need to help everybody. Like, who can we help stay afloat? That's around. I'm going to get the doors. Where can we go?
Kasey GO (she/her) (35:17.213)
my-
Kasey GO (she/her) (35:23.582)
Yeah, it was really crazy. was really strange to reflect on that.
Allyson (35:25.558)
You
Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer (35:30.188)
Casey, before we get to our last question, which is why distance learning is the name of the podcast. So I'll plant that seed. I just, wanted to, I wanted to go back to something that you said, which is that, that being a distance learning teacher, a live synchronous distance learning teacher, it's not for everybody. And I, I, I heard a couple of things that you said you were talking about communication skills.
ability to read your audience, I think is especially critical. You have to be, you have to be like hyper sensitive to it because they're so small. Like, the faces are so small. So have to be like super, super sensitive to that, like, you know, energy via distance, which is it's tough. You're talking about bringing passion, which is something that like when you're in a two dimensional medium, that's like extra important, although it's, you know, can be very important in, in, person as well. Although in person, you can kind of rely more on like some relationship building.
Kasey GO (she/her) (35:58.685)
Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer (36:20.252)
that like can get you through without the passion, right? But you have a harder time building that over distance. And then you talked about like designing things interactively. You know, I think when I recruit people for Banyan global learning, I'm looking for like a unicorn, right? Like I'm looking for someone who has that camera presence, who's a good teacher, right? Like first and foremost, a good teacher, right? Who, who has the ed tech skills to be able to like multitask while they are teaching with technology to like, not like freak out when something happens.
And to just like keep rolling and have like understand which one is something they're gonna fix in the in the short term or which one is something they got to pivot from right We also work cross-culturally but there's a certain degree of cross-cultural communication that happens in any distance learning because you're Engaging with people who are outside their bubble My question for you. It's kind of for the panel here because I don't think we've ever talked about this is like can anyone do this? Right like can't can we?
Kasey GO (she/her) (37:14.431)
Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer (37:14.808)
Could we, maybe it's like a more philosophical question about education, but like for people who don't have those communication skills immediately, who don't have the ability to read the audience immediately, who aren't bringing the passion immediately, who aren't designing interactively immediately, obviously you'd want someone who had all that when they're coming into it, but can we skill people up as educators? Can we skill up anyone for this or is there a line where it's like, some people just aren't suited for this?
Kasey GO (she/her) (37:41.738)
That's a really good question. And it, it's interesting too, because asking that question, I think back to days. So when I was at moat, I had a distance learning studio that I taught out of. had cameras, I had markers, I had markers, meaning places on the floor to stand. had green screens. I had props, tools, all these things. When I left moat, I came to earth echo.
This is what I have. I'm in my house right now. We all work virtually ever since Earth Echo came to be almost 20 years ago. And so it's thinking about the resources you have and how you can make your space work for you. And I remember being back at Moat and our vice president would come and say, you know, we want to cross train this new educator.
They're Marine Science Educator 3, and we want them to be able to do overnights, after school programs, and we want them to be on camera for C-Trek distance learning. you know, Jason and I would sit there and we're like, okay, how do we teach this? Can we teach this? We can teach this, can't we? I think we can. And so it starts with certain things of where are you, where is your line of sight when you're talking to a virtual audience?
answer should be, it's not the screen looking at them. It is you're looking at the camera because then you are directly making eye contact with your audience. I love it. but even, you know, inflections in your voice, if you have somebody that's pretty monotone, that might not be able to be taught out of them. Like they might not be able to do that. And then even, I think it,
Allyson (39:10.926)
Yeah.
Seth Fleischauer (39:17.208)
It's been a topic of debate here on the podcast, but yes, keep going.
Kasey GO (she/her) (39:35.754)
It even comes down to public speaking skills. Like who is comfortable in front of a room of 10 people, 50 people, 100 people.
They might be really comfortable in an audience of a thousand physically sitting in front of them, but once you put a camera in their face, they absolutely freeze up. I've seen that happen. so like teaching the technical aspects of that, that's one thing. And then Seth, everything else you just said, can they think that quickly as they're also teaching?
They see something glitching. They see the connection has dropped. see they can't bring up this graphic that they were expecting to use as a teaching tool. Can somebody think and pivot without panicking? And I think that is, I think it could be taught. Maybe we're the people to write the course on that. I don't know.
Seth Fleischauer (40:32.536)
Yeah, and very diplomatic answer. Thank you.
Allyson (40:33.442)
There it is. Yes.
Kasey GO (she/her) (40:35.572)
But I do think, inherently though, I think there's some natural abilities that go with that because even I think of teachers, like some of my most talented and influential teachers, they were teachers at their very core. And then I think of some of the hacks I had in undergrad that I knew they were just scientists that were then hired, you have to teach genetics 101. And it was the worst class in the world.
Seth Fleischauer (40:43.65)
for sure, like any job.
Allyson (40:56.994)
You
Seth Fleischauer (40:57.624)
You
Kasey GO (she/her) (41:05.202)
because they stuck at it. So I think inherently, and that's my wish for everyone in the whole world is that you find a profession that ignites you and lights your inner fire and like speaks to you and where you have that skill, like deep in your core so that you can just share it with everyone. So whether that be you're an engineer that maybe does drawings all day and that
That's what moves you, but I do think that you have to have that inherent teaching ability in order to do something like this effectively.
Seth Fleischauer (41:44.63)
Yeah. So my favorite people to hire are kids of teachers or like people from teachers families. Cause I've, cause I feel like they've been, they've been trained their entire life to be a teacher. Like it's just like, just works your way into the family dynamic. My daughter is going to be a fantastic teacher.
Allyson (42:03.022)
I was just thinking of my daughter too. I was like, my gosh, how many different, I feel like she was like sharpening pencils at like different volunteer events. Like, let's help set up this tablescape. It's like.
Seth Fleischauer (42:08.824)
Yeah, my daughter's presented at educational conferences with me. Okay. Casey, last question. It's the title of our podcast. Someone who's been in this medium for 20 years. Why distance learning?
Kasey GO (she/her) (42:11.306)
Thank
Kasey GO (she/her) (42:17.851)
I love it.
Kasey GO (she/her) (42:28.084)
So why distance learning? I think, and this comes back to where I'm from, why distance learning? Use this medium because you might be able to touch that student or that lifelong learner. You might be able to speak to them and bring them something that they have never themselves encountered in their own environment, and it might ignite a spark.
that could lead to some pretty amazing actions. So I think using this virtual medium as a way to connect with people, to have authentic conversations, to meet people where they're at, this is it right here. I wasn't able to bring the ocean to myself when I was a little girl in North Dakota. I could through paper, through books and pictures, but...
Seth Fleischauer (43:21.464)
You
Seth Fleischauer (43:25.442)
different kind of distance learning.
Kasey GO (she/her) (43:27.098)
As an adult, I feel fairly confident that I have brought the ocean to a lot of people who may never ever see, feel or touch it or smell it. But they've had some sort of experience just by connecting through this medium.
Seth Fleischauer (43:44.288)
it. Well, thank you so much, Casey. We really appreciate your contributions to the field, your stories that you told here today. Really fun to watch you and Alison geek out on the article that you guys wrote so many years ago. For those of you who'd like to learn more about the podcast, please go to cilc.org slash podcast. You can check the show notes for any of the links or resources that we mentioned here today.
Thank you as always to our editor, Lucas Salazar. If you want to support the podcast, please rate it, leave a review, tell a friend, follow us. And if you want to know the answer to the question, why distance learning, please check out the people we highlight here on this podcast. These are the people who are leveraging this amazing technology to truly transform the learning experience. Why distance learning? Because it's accessible and it's awesome. See you next time.
Allyson (44:16.398)
Thank
Allyson (44:37.72)
Bye!
