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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: In a world of increasing inequality, how do we as teams and leaders give everyone the best possible opportunities? Sounds like a huge task, but our guest on this week's show, Berg,
[00:00:11] Dan: who Campaigns for Social Justice has some practical ways to make a difference. AED is Associate Pro Vice Chancellor at Brunell University of London and campaigns for social justice, as well as nurturing it in his own organization.
[00:00:24] Dan: So it's safe to say that he has both the big picture and also the hands-on experience to help us all to do a little bit better in this field.
[00:00:32]
[00:00:35] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:42] Pia: And I am Pia Lee,
[00:00:44] Dan: Pierre for the first time ever. I didn't read that intro. What do you
[00:00:47] Pia: that that is extraordinary. Now you've done 125 episodes and you've now learned it.
[00:00:53] Dan: Incredible, incredible. And it seemed to go okay. I, I'm not sure I'll trust myself again, but when I actually in with music, I know that you can get stuck to reading the dots and it's very hard to get yourself away and actually sort of internalize things. So I thought I'd do a little bit of practice there. however unimpressive that is to the listener.
[00:01:11] Pia: You, even got your name right, which I thought was pretty impressive.
[00:01:14] Dan: I feel that everything went rather well there, so, um, I think I now just knock it off for the day. Um, so today we're talking about something that's really close to our hearts actually, and, um, something that I've been thinking a lot about recently, which, We're talking about social mobility, social justice, and um, I've been listening a lot to Gary Stevenson, who is an economist.
[00:01:35] Dan: He's an ex, ex Citibank trader. He was the biggest, he highest paid Citibank trader, and he's now. Campaigning against inequality and for equality, if you like. Um, so it is it, yeah, it's been in my, been in my mind. So when I saw Arad Reisberg, um, at a conference recently talking about social mobility, I thought, right, we have to grab him for the, for the show.
[00:01:57] Pia: and to get clarity about what exactly it is, which we will do.
[00:02:00] Dan: That would help. They sound like good words, but what exactly is it? And practically, rather than just despairing about these things or worrying about them, what can we, what can we do about it? So Aaron's the, uh, the person to talk to. So let's get over there now,
[00:02:18] Pia: And a really big warm welcome to Arad. Welcome to We, not me.
[00:02:22] Arad: Uh, thank you very much, Peter. Thank you, Don. Great to be here.
[00:02:26] Pia: Oh. Well, we are very excited and delighted to talk around this subject of social mobility. And, um, but before that, before we let you loose, we we're going to have the infamous card trick from Mr. Hammond, and he will pose a question.
[00:02:42] Arad: Ooh. Excited. I'm
[00:02:44] Pia: Well, that not, not many people are, so that's an unusual, unusual.
[00:02:48] Dan: I don't often do this, but I'll start with a compliment. 'cause you have a love, you have a really good, you have a lovely voice. So I think our listeners are going to enjoy hearing your MOUs tones today. oh, here we are. The last big thing I learned about myself was.
[00:03:03] Arad: Um, very recently. I think that I'm much more powerful when I am calm and quiet.
[00:03:13] Dan: Yeah, we'll leave that sitting there. That's wonderful. They're very nice co consult, and I'm not gonna ask any follow up questions. I think that's it. A tell us a little bit more about you though. So I think we'll leave that to sit there and, um, uh, because it's so beautifully stated.
[00:03:25] Dan: Uh, tell us a bit about you. A what's where, where, where'd you come from and how'd you get to this point today?
[00:03:29] Arad: by a matter of chance, by a matter of conviction, I came to this country in 98 that is to the UK for a year to study, um, or part of my master degrees at Oxford, uh, uh, overseas from, from Israel, from Tel Aviv, and then stayed for a year and then one thing later to another. I think that's the story of my life.
[00:03:48] Arad: And then I worked with a wonderful supervisor who said, why don't you do a PhD? I said, okay. And then after a year of PhD, why don't you do some research assistant and teaching? Yes. And I was like, Hmm, interesting. Why not? And I would say that the thread line, the interesting thing was I was open to the opportunity.
[00:04:06] Arad: I was open to the challenge and I said, let's try it. I mean, why not? And then one thing led to another. I sort of given, what is it, 48 notice of teaching by him. He said, why don't you teach these students? And I was like, I don't know anything he said, you know, enough. Uh, but it's a real, real interesting challenge to get everything over the weekend ready.
[00:04:26] Arad: And as I still believe, I learned so much from my students. Uh, they teach me if you are open, if you're listening, and everyone is different. And so I realized that it's, it's, it's meant to be. A vocation. And so I started doing this and so my PhD took longer 'cause I was doing teaching and research assistants.
[00:04:46] Arad: I like to do lots of things. And then one thing led to another and I became an academic. I didn't plan to, 'cause I qualified in law. I had a PhD, uh, from Oxford. and then by doing those things, I discovered not only the passion to give to people, but transform their lives. So something about the nature and fulfillment.
[00:05:07] Arad: It's about helping people to reach their, I would say, their potential. Um, and so the roles that I've done, I think the, the common ground had to do with it. So I then moved to, uh, a year at Warwick University and at at UCL, sorry, for 10 years I was the yo Vice Dean Research. Every time there's a challenge.
[00:05:26] Arad: I didn't even men mention the challenge at at Oxford when they start to stop my PhD in the first year. And they said something quite astonishing. You have the caliber, you're very good, but this is too ambitious. And so I failed that. And I was like, well, and, and then we had to go to the drawing board and dig deeper and find more and more answers.
[00:05:48] Arad: And then I fought it. It was not as easy as, as it as I make it sound now, but it, I had Worked extensively hard and, and, and, and dig deeper to prove them wrong, but also to prove to myself that I'm capable of doing it. And I think my biggest achievement at that time was not only that I fought against the institutions, the Oxford, the tradition, but that I then, graduated and it was immediately, everything sort of fit into place.
[00:06:16] Arad: Oxford Investor press wanted to publish it as a book. Artists invitations everywhere and everything kind of clicked into place. So it's like a really important moment. Um, and then afterwards at UCLI was doing research, working with colleagues. I was too young. Some of my colleagues were professors. I wasn't, and I was like, he's a young vice dean who is this bloke that is kind of, and I went to them and talked to them and tried to understand where they come from.
[00:06:41] Arad: and some of them I think, I convinced some would not, but I said, judge me by the result, don't judge me by my age or by anything else. and then the big, I think, breakthrough was after a few years at, at, at UCRI then got headhunted, to come to Brune University of London, which is now called, and then to be the head of the law school.
[00:07:03] Arad: And then when they asked me, are you interested? I was like, why? And so I then understood that I'm drawn to challenge, to an opportunity to make a difference. And then I knew from my perspective that, that it had a good name, but it doesn't have name, a good name now. So when I went to the interview, I didn't even know that I wanted it or the first stage and the second stage.
[00:07:24] Arad: And when I got it, I was surprised. Once I got it, I didn't realize the how big the challenge is. But it was an amazing opportunity.
[00:07:32] Dan: And how did you move into this field of social mobility and or having this, this obsession? I would say.
[00:07:40] Arad: Well, the challenge was that the place I became at was nothing and nowhere like I've ever been before. So 82%, four out of five of the undergrad had come from slower socioeconomic background. And so the first in the family in university on school meals. they, they have struggles in life that I haven't seen anywhere else.
[00:08:01] Arad: I worked overseas as well, and so everything I realized and everything that I've done before prepared me for that. But first I had to put the place in order because it was, as some of my colleagues at the time were, I think it's a sinking ship, people were like leaving and so I never tried to replicate anything done else or I wanted to get to the.
[00:08:24] Arad: The DNA, what makes this place different than in other places? And by meeting people, going to their offices, people who were there, I understood what is the distinctive voice that they bring to the table. And I then realized over time, I didn't call it social mobility by the way, that everything I did was opening opportunities for students to succeed, to thrive, to fulfill themselves.
[00:08:50] Arad: Then one thing led to another and experiment that, and, and we can talk about it if that's, that's of interest, empowering my colleagues. But it was a huge change because the scale of change, just to give you an idea, I think 10 or 15 more, 15 people left, but I made overall close to 51 appointments. Over the time I brought new people.
[00:09:11] Arad: The whole new structure, a whole new, I think attest of, we can do it together, but we need to raise our game. We need to have a plan, a vision, but we do everything with compassion, with kindness, and with supporting each other.
[00:09:26] Pia: So when we talk about social mobility, we use that term, how do you define it?
[00:09:32] Arad: Brilliant question, Pia. I have personally a problem with it, Pete. Co social mobility, uh, connects the fact that you mobile either upwards or downwards, you move in life. But for me it's about social justice. It's about human beings fulfilling their potential. So I have seen people at at at Brunell and students who came to talk to me as I had, and others as I taught who were as good as places that I taught at Oxford, at UCL, oversees it in us, in in Singapore.
[00:10:03] Arad: The only difference is they didn't have the opportunity. So it's about opening doors For me, it's about that I have a problem with social mobility because for me it's a little bit political term because it's very narrow, because it, it, it talks about a specific thing for me, it boils down into the how we open up opportunities for every human being, whatever they want to be, to, to thrive in life and.
[00:10:30] Arad: This is what I realized by talking to students, by talking to that the Brunell has it within its DNA within the student. And when people coming to me suddenly say, wow, I didn't know that I wanna do that, and now I have this opportunity, or you bring something to the table that they were not aware of. So it's about opportunity. It's about a fairer game as well.
[00:10:51] Pia: because that, that's good to get that definition. because I mean, I guess social mobility people might be seeing that as the way that you get to the boss's job in inside a business or, you know, how you, how you get people to help you to, to ascend the, the corporate or career ladder.
[00:11:06] Arad: Um, 100%. And, and, and going back to the question that, that Don asked, a lot of organizations define that as, oh, we're going to university. We then become. Work in a, in a place, how much you earn and so on. No, many of the graduates from low socioeconomic backgrounds, whether they went to university or not, want to do other things, whether it's in the charity sector, the private sector, the public sector helping others, they bring to the table something that nobody else has, and that's a really, really interesting thing.
[00:11:37] Arad: And so when I stepped down his head. I talked to the Vice Chancellor and I was like, what's the next step? And I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to take it for the whole university. And then one thing led to another, it took some time. And then I was appointed last, well actually we're coming to a year now as associate Provost Vice, a social media. I couldn't care about the title.
[00:11:57] Dan: With, social mobility in the title officially, but, and so what does that involve? Just break it down for a, into what do you actually, what do I actually do to make that happen?
[00:12:06] Arad: I, well, there is no manual. That's why it makes it exciting. I'm the first in the, in the kind of sector with this title, there are people who are doing it. So universities are very traditional. They do outreach and then they bring students and then they help them and then they find, help them find jobs.
[00:12:23] Arad: This is about all of that, but also trying to find opportunities working with partners, so it's got the internal part within the university. About all we already do. So doing a scoping exercise in all fields in medicine. And what I found is amazing how many things we already do. And I did it in the law school as well, so forward.
[00:12:43] Arad: That's why I was given the permission to go and do it elsewhere. And it's a transferrable thing because it doesn't matter whether you do it in healthcare and engineering or in law, it's about bringing those opportunities to the table. So I reached out to organizations, to charities. To firms, to people. I started to go to webinars.
[00:13:05] Arad: I felt like the early days as I had like an imposter syndrome, what am I actually doing? And somebody, I remember one question, I went to a law firm and somebody said, so who are you? What do you want to do? And I was like, wow, that's a really good question. And then I said, forget about my title. I'm just a block with a passion to transform people's lives, to giving them opportunities.
[00:13:27] Arad: And then I don't expect anything in return. I believe that you open up things and then things sometime organically come forward. So one thing led to another and then I, I think I met Paul and some other people, one of the webinars and I was very impressed. And he then said, Paul Moley from a MS, and he said, we are, I'm starting to think about Social Media Leaders Forum, and I joined the online column. There were a lot of people. And then he said, oh, the, if anyone wants to do a bit more. So I'm the one who likes to do a bit more. Um, and then six, seven of us started it and now, and then we formed a social media leaders forum. And I think the difference for me is that I will always be, which is sometimes people say it's unusual for a lawyer, so it's not the word, it's the action that matter.
[00:14:13] Arad: I will judge you by what you do, not what you say. And it's about accountability. And so I said we are gonna bring change because. There's so many organizations that are working in government and things in this area, but it's so fragmented and they don't work together, and they multiply and we want to bring them together. This is what we're about and we came into the market in March this year with 30 organization. We, we are actually hitting 100. This, well in a few days. And we get everything from charity to higher education to government and thing. It's just about systematic change. It's about connecting the dots. It's about understanding that real change can come if you work together, but also being realistic that. the solution is not gonna come from government.
[00:15:01] Arad: I can explain if you want to, either because of a short-termism and, and, and lack of funds and thing. Businesses can actually unlock this because businesses can, provide the funding if they understand what the benefit is. And there's so many good businesses that get it right now.
[00:15:18] Dan: let's just dive on that for a minute. What's, what is the, um. What's the relevance of this to a business?
[00:15:24] Arad: it's about success. So my experience in building the law school is that if you have a diverse workforce, I'm very proud that I wanted. To change since we had 26 nationalities. And diversity is about age. It's about experience, it's about nationality. The more different voices you have on the table, the better you're going to do.
[00:15:46] Arad: And the same as a business, the more you're challenged, friendly challenge, and then you hear voices and things that you're not familiar, the more ready you are with your projects, with your things on the market. I think there's a recognition. I'm staying away clear of the E-D-I-D-I sort of, um, you know, battle right now across the Atlantic and, and here because for me it's about the basics of business.
[00:16:14] Arad: And I bring is also here my corporate law background as a professor of corporate law and finance. It's understanding that if company wants to succeed, they need to have the right ingredients and the right ingredients. Ease. Having the right people who are as employees are, are, are, uh, satisfied and happy, but also diverse and feel empowered to get the right results or to to, to talk and to challenge the, those in the top.
[00:16:42] Arad: It, it's interesting 'cause I ask this question. I was asked to sit on a panel on ESG, environmental social Governance for CFOs, and there was somebody talking about social media and he was talking about what's the business case? And I was like, isn't it obvious that in the world we live today, you need.
[00:17:03] Arad: The most resilient, the most resources, the most, sort of ideas to challenge. You can't just have one voices. You can't think of this, right? I wouldn't have been succeeding in my job as a head if somebody didn't stop me and say, a what about that? What about this, what about this? And, and that's it. It's about being open to that, actually not being threatened by that as a leader.
[00:17:24] Arad: so I think this, this is What it is about. And I think businesses that get it are more successful, are more, um, profitable, but also have, um, longevity. Because I remember one thing, um, I forgot his name so please forgive me. It was in, um. Copenhagen a couple of years ago, and he was the global vice president for, uh, Ikea and so on.
[00:17:50] Arad: He said, we're the most trusted company in the world, and I didn't know that. And he says it's because we asked all the time our employees to contribute and tell us, give us ideas. you know, what else are we missing? What are the voices? And then he said something which is really beautiful, he said. I don't have to speak for my business, just ask any of my colleagues at work if they're happy there. If they're happy there, there will. It will be a better company to work with and there will be better results and so on. And so I think it's about that.
[00:18:20] Dan: And you feel that actually interesting at ikea, doesn't it? You, you, you do feel it. So I mean, ed, you are both a, uh, a a, you are a professor in this field. You're an advocate in this field, but you are also a leader in your own organization in this field. So what have you, what have you learned, um, that people could take away, a listener could take away to, to really champion social justice, in, in their own.
[00:18:45] Dan: Work, in order to get better results, but also potentially motivated for, you know, altruistic reasons as well. But what, um, what can they, what, what practically can, can people do to, to further this?
[00:18:59] Arad: Yes. So there are a lot of resources available freely in terms of small steps organizations can take. But I think it starts with human beings. It's reaching out to a, a colleague at work or someone and understanding and you know, I did an exercise, which I really, really liked, that somebody once taught me, ask somebody what's in the name?
[00:19:22] Arad: So why were you called Pier? And then you realize that there's a whole history behind it. And then somebody can bring their background. And the thing, some people, there was somebody I worked for 20 years and I didn't really realize, she doesn't even like my name. Then that opens up a lot of things. So it puts people on an equal footing.
[00:19:40] Arad: It's about the language we use. It's about being non-discriminatory in a, in a simple way. So not asking, oh, what did you do over the summer? But a lot of people cannot do certain things over the summer because of where they come from. Instead of doing that,
[00:19:55] Arad: why don't you ask them something that. He's more general.
[00:19:59] Arad: That doesn't discriminate. So there are a lot of nuances in the kind of questions that you ask people and how you do it. So I always talk to people on, on the same level as with colleague or as a student. You know, I mean, it's about, you know, human beings and so tell me about yourself. And I think there's always something to learn if you know where the person comes from and what you know, motivates and, and drives them and what the struggles are.
[00:20:24] Arad: Do you understand? 10 times better. How to work with that and then the, I think this is a small step that organizations can take.
[00:20:32] Pia: I mean that, that sounds very close to curiosity really, isn't it? Which is actually a bit of a, a skill that we. Somewhat underutilized, but being in, you know, there, there's that thing, are you, are you interesting or are you interested? and the latter is, is more powerful as Jim Collins talks about in his first, first few years of, of, uh, being a professor.
[00:20:56] Pia: So, yeah, I think the, the, the type of questions you ask, you can open up a conversation very easily and that, and that enables somebody to discover something about themselves quite often.
[00:21:05] Arad: 100%. Give them the space to be themselves. Give them the place to be authentic. See what they bring to the table rather than. Judge them by, you know, just what you see things, because a lot of people, um, are going through a lot, and this is what I said to my colleagues as well when I was leading. I don't know what you're going through, but I can, I can, I'm there to help you or support you in, in doing it. And I think opening up a little bit about that brings quite a lot, to the table.
[00:21:36] Dan: that's a, that, that brought up a lot for me actually, out of what you just said about giving, letting people have their space, whereas actually a lot of work in organizations is about, there's your space fit into it, is that they traditionally in organizations and, you know, even, we actually had a, we actually talked about this with a guest on we, not me hiring for fit.
[00:21:55] Dan: It's almost like, actually don't bring your space. We'll show you a space and see if you are. See if you actually lodge into that correctly. It's, it's a, whereas that fit thing is, is sort of seen as a sort of, you know, a cultural fit or whatever. It's almost seen as a, an accepted truth, isn't it? But it's actually an enemy to this, uh, to this idea of social justice.
[00:22:17] Arad: It, it's, it's an enemy. It's, uh, quite limiting and I think one of the best. Sort of things that I've done in one of the New Years was a, uh, sort of messages to stuff when they came back and I first acknowledged that it's not an easy period for a lot of people. ' tell people say, oh, happy new Year.
[00:22:35] Arad: Everything is wonderful, blah, blah blah. I hope you succeed. So I wrote to stuff and I said, I hope you fail this year and I hope you learn something and I hope you will grow from it. The amount of conversations that came to me privately from that. Enough. I had spouses, husbands, and things of of colleagues who I've never met got in touch with me and said they felt so empowered.
[00:22:58] Arad: My wife felt so empowered 'cause she never worked in a place where she was allowed to be herself. And I was like, this is exactly about that. You get me and you get I'm, you are not here. Because you exactly said to fit. You are here to be your, your who you are, and the reason why you're here is what you bring to the table. And so don't, you know, I help you to grow
[00:23:20] Dan: So let's boil this down a one for our listener. It's, it's, it's almost, I, I think about it, it's something I'm, I'm so personally, uh, really passionate about, and when I, when I saw you at that co at the conference, I thought, right, we have to get arid on the show. But equally it can be overwhelming, can't it? It's a big thing.
[00:23:42] Dan: So just boiling this down to real sharp point, what's something that, what's something real, a real baby step? 'cause I can see there's personal risks in this as well, isn't there for someone? Everyone's looking out for their own career and how am I doing before I try to bring other people up?
[00:23:58] Dan: What, um, what is something that people can do that's. That's maybe without those risks or that's really practical that people just, just make a start, dip their toe in the water.
[00:24:09] Arad: So the best thing I ever done after I had a period. I was, I had a heart, heart surgery, which is another story. Um, and being away and came back and I, I, I wasn't there for three and a half months. I invited colleagues and did nothing but listening, actively listening.
[00:24:27] Arad: And it was wonderful because, and I think it's one of the books that I, I read, which escapes me right now, and it was unbelievable because in the beginning, oh, everything is great, blah, blah, blah.
[00:24:38] Arad: I say, okay, but tell me. Were there any difficulties during the time I was there? People will tell you a lot and open up a lot if you give them the space and I, and I think the, uh, they feel comfortable that you, that you give them the, the psychological safety to do it. As simple as that.
[00:24:59] Arad: Then I've learned a lot of things that I didn't know about the people so that A, I can help them. And b, I also learned generally about what, what was going on rather than the, you know, the general sort of thing. So I think if you ask one of your colleagues instead of, how are you doing? Because it's a really loaded question, how are you doing? Well, you know, there's so many health issues and, uh, we, we live now in a very volatile world and it's really hard and people sometimes don't know where to start.
[00:25:28] Arad: Just come and listen and say what's on your mind? Just tell me. And then they repeat and they will say, well, everything is okay. And I was like, really, everything is okay, but what's been keeping you busy right now? And then you just, and then you just listen. You don't judge, you just listen. You take so much from this and I think what you earn is, is getting to see the true color of a person, of a colleague, of someone, and then you can, they can bring their best to the, to the table.
[00:25:55] Dan: That's a such a powerful question. What's on your mind? Uh, it's just so, so good. so simple. but, so EE Even as I think about answering that question for myself, I think I would answer that in a totally different way from how are you, which, uh, being English. Fine, fine. I'm fine all the time, which means so much.
[00:26:15] Dan: Um, no, that's excellent. Now. Alright, our final question as always, and I hesitate, I, I, I worry about asking this of a well read um, but what is your, yeah, it's our media recommendation. So what does informed you, entertained you, inspired you?
[00:26:31] Arad: Everything informs me what I see, what I experience, what I travel positive and negative, and, and seeing poverty or seeing struggles of people. So I won't get into that. I would say for me. At the moment, I'm reading a lot of books that are very helpful, but actually going to, going back to basics, which I tried to do over the summer, rereading Young Pueblo's Theology, which is about inward connection and the way forward.
[00:27:02] Arad: It's so simple that it's so powerful and it's not that simple if you then read it because it asks you to. Uh, go deeper and reflect and it asks a lot of you and it's showing up truthfully and authentically. And um, and it is brought another layer for me to, to, to, to, to do things. And I think that's why it's that powerful.
[00:27:29] Arad: And I think it works and the beauty of it is it works for different people in different ways. 'cause we're all very different and at different stages. So there is no one gut, it's about. Going back and I like, I love the, the word connection, sorry, inward. In order to be able, the second book is connection. They're very easy read by the way, because they're not long book.
[00:27:47] Arad: And then it's about the way forward and that's the order. And because it's works for me. And now Reading Lighter, it's about letting go of the past and connect with the future. There is so many positive things that people can take and. It resonates with, as I said, with people that I recommended, that surprised me was like, wow, people are just loving it and coming back to it.
[00:28:10] Arad: And so I think that's, that's one recommendation that I, that I would say, and also we need it in this world right now in a very volatile world where there's no, there's no stability, there's no kindness. We need to go back to this to be able to manage ourselves, um, in front, in light of all of this.
[00:28:30] Dan: That is great. And actually I think you've given me my summer read. We're off on a holiday next week. I think that'll be very good accompaniment on the beach as I, uh, just think about, uh, bigger things and, uh, a chance to reflect internally.
[00:28:44] Arad: Uh, tell me how, what do you think about it? Because I, because it's really interesting how it resonates in different, how people take different things, and that's another lesson for me. I was like, I read the same page and think this what you do. so beautiful. We have so many colors and so many layers and so many different things, and then people are in different stages in the journey, whatever of life, and that's why it's so beautiful
[00:29:08] Dan: Thank you for that arid, and, uh, bring a lovely interview to a close. Thank you. A really good conversation. And, um, thank you so much for being on the show. And also thank you for what you do because as you say, there's, there are a lot of forces against this. Um, but it's great to see you swimming upstream and leading others.
[00:29:26] Arad: We have to do it. It's, it's in us, it's in mean and things. And so for me it's, you think you are accepted, but it's also a privilege. It's, you know, it's, it's a real will privilege to be able to do it. And thank you so much for, uh, having me.
[00:29:43] Dan: You know, going into this conversation with a, I must admit, I was sort of thinking that we would, hear sort of some really con sort of steps and, uh, frameworks and, um, you know, techniques and tasks that had to be done. What, what. What, of course, as often is the case with these things, it is at a much more, um, sort of being level than a doing level to some extent.
[00:30:07] Dan: but I also realize that actually you don't need to take individuals and show them the rungs on the ladder or do, do sort of put in sort of. Positive discrimination things or whatever. You actually just need to give people the space. As a said, just respect them as a human. Give them space to be that person and they will sort out their mobility themselves if you like. They will, they will sort out their justice. So that's, that was a big u-turn for me during that conversation. Um, but I think that's, it is pretty powerful stuff.
[00:30:41] Pia: I think that a lot of people don't feel seen and they feel judged or they have a sort of bi a bias against them. So that ability to help people, be seen through things like. Asking good questions, properly listening, active listening helps them to then fulfill their potential. Like that's the, that which is what he sees.
[00:31:00] Pia: So social mobility as, as you say, they, they take the reins. But I think, giving conscious attention to people is something that we often don't do. We're either very engrossed in ourselves or we're too busy doing things.
[00:31:14] Dan: it's, right. I think that you hear time and again where people will say, I joined. I didn't quite fit in that team. And I know I mentioned it in the conversation with Arad, but actually letting people, just that sense of actually I'm, when people do fit, they probably, or either they, they're probably either fitting in a bucket or more likely they've been given space. To, to be themselves and to fit. Um, and I think that seems to be the crucial thing, as you say, open questions, bringing people out, letting them do that. Um, but it's pretty subtle as well. Some of the ways in which cultures expect certain things and, um, and check whether you are one of the gang or not. And, and actually being one of the gang is far less.
[00:31:57] Dan: Far less important in that sense than actually being able to be your whole self, um, in these situations. 'cause when that happens, let's say you'll, as Aaron said, you will, um, you'll, you'll raise yourself up, you'll sort yourself out from there.
[00:32:12] Pia: Which is, you know, because you, as I say, because you've sort of been recognized and that builds co, that builds self-confidence. whereas sort of just being missed is a big thing. I think for people that becomes really difficult.
[00:32:26] Dan: and it was fascinating that we, we had a prof professor on the show. but, you know, he's very practical. There's not a lot, it's not a lot of academic stuff going on there. I'm, you know, sure he has all the academic background needed, but actually what he's doing is, is practical stuff that us, me, and mortals could do as well.
[00:32:44] Pia: Absolutely. And asking, I thought there were two good questions. You know, what's in the name, asking about people about their name, and what's on your mind, you know, that they're, they're open-ended questions that elicit a different response.
[00:32:57] Dan: Yeah, it's true actually. It's funny. I was, I'm working with a team in the Middle East at the moment, um, and I was actually thinking yesterday what I, I'm sure if I knew more, I'd know what these names meant, what they implied, you know, the country they came from, the, the, the origins and so on. So I think asking that question, I could imagine would be a.
[00:33:15] Dan: Would be very revealing and, and, and, uh, honor them and let them take their, take their space as well. So, yeah. Wonderful stuff. Wonderful. Co A couple of really good top tips there, but that is it for this episode.
[00:33:27] Dan: We not me, is supported by Squadify. squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:33:46] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.