The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader

Nick Bicanic, producer of the award winning documentary Shadow Company, and Vice's War Against Boko Haram, lives his life on the cutting edge of innovation. Nick is a talented inventor and one of the founders of the revolutionary fighter pilot training company Red 6 which utilizes high fidelity / high speed / extreme low latency augmented reality.

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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I'm Travis Bader,
and this is The

Silvercore Podcast.

Join me as I discuss
matters related to

hunting, fishing, and
outdoor pursuits with the

people in businesses that
comprise the community.

If you're a new to
Silvercore, be sure to

check out our website,
www.Silvercore.ca we can

learn more about courses,
services and products

that we offer as well
as how you can join The

Silvercore Club, which
includes 10 million

in north America wide
liability insurance, to

ensure you are properly
covered during your

outdoor adventures.

Today I'm joined by
wind surfer, helicopter

pilot, tech inventor,
filmmaker, and founder

of the revolutionary
company, Red6, which

uses an airborne tactical
augmented reality system

to train fighter pilots.

Welcome to The
Silvercore Podcast, my

friend, Nick Bicanic.

Hey Travis.

Thanks for having
me on the podcast.

It's been a long time
since we first met

back in that, uh,
I think it was the

firearm safety course
in British Columbia.

Oh my god.

It's been forever
since then.

It's been what?

15, 16 years.

No, we're not
supposed to say that.

Cause that makes
us seem older than

we actually are.

It's been, it's been
awhile, definitely

over a decade.

Ahh, it's been a hot
minute if we're going

to use the parlance
of today's youth.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I remember, I
remember helping you pack

to move down to LA and
that it doesn't seem that

long ago, but you've done
so much with your time.

Well, I guess since I
first met you and since

moving down to LA,
it's been just amazing.

I, I don't know where
to begin, but I think

maybe a fun place to
start would be where we

first met, which would
have been on, uh, one

of the basic firearms
courses that we have

up here in Canada.

And you did really
well on that course,

finish up the course
and said, you know,

I'm looking for some
more advanced training.

Is there anywhere
around that that

you'd recommend?

And I jokingly said, hey,
head over to Calgary.

There's a zero to
hero, one week, become

a mercenary course.

And before I knew it, you
were up there with a film

crew and it just kinda
took on legs of its own.

Did you want to
talk about that?

Yeah.

The, the project
that, that ended up

becoming, uh, was called
Shadow Company, it,

it actually did that
spectacularly well, it

was my first ever long
form documentary film.

And the basic idea was
that I had the, I had,

I had a couple of good
friends who had joined

the military, but one in
particular, who I went

to university with, he
joined the British army.

Uh, he was the infantry.

Um, and after spending
a couple of years in

the infantry with the
usual deployments, uh,

I think they had Arctic
warfare training in

Canada and they had some
stuff in Northern Ireland

as the usual rotations
for British infantry.

Uh, he left, uh, he'd
been a lawyer, and he

left and he was looking
for something else to do.

And looking for
adventurous, he ended

up working as a security
contractor, uh, in

particular, he was going
to look at a job in

Nigeria, uh, guarding,
guarding diamond mines,

but for whatever reason,
that didn't quite work

out, although I was
supposed to come and

spend a bit of time with
him while he was there.

So one day he called
me and he said, you

know, forget Nigeria,
we're going to Iraq.

And I said, what
are you going to do?

And he goes, yeah, we're
going to guard, you

know, the ministry of
oil, guard refineries.

This there's like
tens of thousands

of contractors here.

I'm like really tens
of thousands because

at the time it wasn't
talked about as, as

big a phenomenon as
it eventually became.

This was prior to the
Blackwater Fallujah

episode and the poor
guys getting hung

off the bridge and
prior to a number of

different incidents
that, that brought the

world's attention to
how much of the, of

the security ecosystem
had been outsourced.

I was looking for
a project to sink

my teeth into on
the creative side.

And that's the fact
that I had some unusual

access, uh, basically
presented a really

interesting opportunity.

So the particular, I
forget, I think it's

called the Shooting Edge.

Was it called the
Shooting Edge.

Yeah, I think thats
where you went to, yeah.

Called the Shooting Edge?

So I got in touch with
a, an ex, uh, 2 2, um,

SAS special air services,
British army special

forces operative by
the name of Alan Bell.

Um, he was, his nickname
was dinger when he was

in the British army and
he operated then, and

still does, a security
company based in Toronto

called Globe Risk.

So I got in touch with
Alan and I got in touch

with Alan out of nowhere,
I just remember I called

him up one day and I
said, hey, um, I want

to do this documentary
on security contractors,

who are they?

What do they do?

And what kind of
people are they?

Why do they do it?

Because I was fascinated
by the idea of what

kind of people chose
this line of work.

They chose to put
themselves in harm's way.

In other words,
they've, they've had

military training,
they've left the

military, and then what?

They could, they
don't have to go

and do this anymore.

Nobody's compelling
them to do it.

So of course you could
argue, well, it's obvious

it's money, but it's not
quite as simple as money.

It's often a bunch
of other things.

It's, it's a sense of
maybe, maybe searching

for the glory days.

Maybe, maybe you
get bored being, for

sake of argument, you
know, working as a

mall security guard,
maybe you don't want

to be a local cop.

You want to have the
experience you had

as part of a, a small
unit fighting force.

And you don't, how
do you do that in

a civilian context?

No, one's going to hire
you to do sniper counter,

sniper work in a civilian
context that sort of

work doesn't exist.

Anyway, I contacted
Alan and Alan said,

initially, he, he was
skeptical because he

thought, who's this guy
and what's his agenda.

Why is he calling me?

Which makes sense.

Because especially guys
like that, who had a

bunch of different,
special forces training,

they don't really
trust the media.

They and sadly, even
then, and especially

now, media tends to
be very polarized.

So whoever's looking
for an angle.

And I said to him,
early on, I said, no,

that there's no angle.

There's no agenda.

There's no
media behind me.

It's just me.

I'm just trying to figure
out who are these guys?

What are they doing?

Why?

I'm just trying
to understand.

I obviously I'm looking
for a story cause I'm

not, I'm not an idiot.

I've got to make
something that's

compelling to watch,
but I'm also trying

to understand what's
happening in the world

because sadly, as much
as polarization in the

media would like to have
you believe, the world

isn't black and white
never has been, it's all

different shades of gray.

And I'm trying to
understand the gray.

So eventually Alan
relented and said, hey,

listen, we're doing a a
seven day predeployment

training at this place
called Shooting Edge

with a bunch of, um,
uh, J sock guys or, or

various different special
forces train guys who

are trying to get jobs
with security companies.

So if you really
want this come

and do this thing.

So, so I show up day
one of the course, I

meet Alan for breakfast
at 0500 or some

equally crazy time.

And, and no one else is
with me, it's just me.

And he sort of sits down.

We have a bit of a chat
and breakfast finishes.

And I remember he
said that he goes.

Just so, you know,
there's a, there's a CBC

crew coming later today.

And I said, okay.

And he goes, you
know, I hope you guys

are fine being there
at the same time.

Like, I don't care, I
mean, whatever, they

can do what they want.

And so, so he says,
wait a second,

where's your gear?

Where's your crew?

And I said, what
do you mean?

It's, it's a seven
day course right?

And he goes, yeah.

And I said, well,
I'm going to do

all my interviews
on, on day seven.

And he said, well,
what are you gonna

do for seven days?

So I'm going to
run the course.

And he's like, wait, you
want, you want to wake

up early in the morning,
run up and down the

hills with heavy loaded
backpack and then drive

and shoot and do all the
training with the guys.

I'm like, yeah,
absolutely.

He said, what do
you want to do that?

And I said, well,
two reasons.

One, because it's fun.

Uh, but two, because
if I don't do that,

the guys are never
going to talk to me.

I mean, sure, they
might answer questions

if forced, but it'll
be yes, no answers.

They don't care.

They're just doing
it because they're

being forced to, I
want them to trust me.

And I want them to
understand that I'm

not trying to just
exploit anything.

I want to understand
what they're doing and

the only way to do that.

I mean, yes, there's
a little bit of

chest thumping, alpha
bullshit that happens,

but that's necessary.

So, so that means
that I'd go off

and run with them.

And if I'm running up a
pack of former special

forces guys, and I'm
not in the end of it,

I'm in the middle of it.

And I start bitching
them out to say, guys,

I'm a journalist,
what are you doing?

Go faster.

That's fun because,
because they're all,

we're all trying to
get in this together.

So from that perspective,
I think that was a

very, very sensible
decision because by the

end, I'm not saying we
were best friends, but

at least they knew me.

They knew what kind
of person I was,

they knew that I was
either dumb enough or

committed enough to go
through the punishing

schedule with them.

So that meant that I got
a lot more, shall we say

honesty and sincerity
out of them because

they understood that
I, that I gave a shit

about this stuff and that
worked out very well.

Plus I ended up becoming
very close friends with

Alan as a, as a result.

Cause he, he's, he's
just, I can imagine he

thought, who is this
idiot who wants to put,

put himself through
this punishing course?

But by day three or four,
he was like, okay, fine

and we became, we've
become friends since,

we spoken quite a bit.

Um, and uh, you
know, I've been over

to stay with him.

He's um, he's
a solid guy.

He's uh, he's obviously
it's been a long time

since, since he's been
on the ground and active,

but let's just say that
if push came to shove

in most scenarios, uh,
I, I was still very much

trust Alan because, uh,
he's, he's seen and done

pretty much everything.

Yeah.

It's kind of hard to,
uh, lose that once

you've been through that.

Um, so it went on,
I mean, you go on

rotten tomatoes.

I think it's got an
85% approval rating,

which is phenomenal.

Dammnit, it was
higher before.

Yeah.

I mean, the story, the
story of the movie,

like to give you a bit
more, so that, that

was the very genesis
of the beginning.

Uh, as a result of that,
you see the bulk of the.

The early initial cadre
of deployments to satisfy

the job requirements
that came up in, uh,

in Iraq and Afghanistan
to a greater or lesser

degree in those days,
was filled with what was

euphemistically referred
to as tier one operators.

In other words, ex
SAS, ex SBS, uh, seals

just unite, like pick
a pick a group, and

you could pretty much
guarantee that the top

tier guys were going
to go and do a rotation

there because the money
was just too good.

And some cases, sadly, it
was actually eroding the

ability of some high-end
special forces unit to

keep their stuff, because
guys were looking at this

going, hang on a second.

I could stay on for
another two years and

make X, or I could make
triple that with the same

risk level if I just quit
now because hey, look,

I've got my seal badge.

I might as well
leave the teams.

I don't need to
stick around.

I'll go work for
Blackwater for

X rotations and
that's me done.

Then I can buy my
house and retire.

So, so there was
definitely lots of lots

of stuff going on, but
in what happened is after

the initial conversations
with Alan, those that

world is quite tough to
break into in term, as,

from a media perspective,
nobody trusts anybody.

Um, uh, certainly
not members of the

media, unless they've
actually worked with

people before, it
ain't gonna happen.

But one, it's like a,
like a set of dominoes.

One thing led to
another, uh, knowing

Alan and having a
seal of approval,

stamp of approval
from him, certainly

opened some doors.

Um, I was able to
reach out to a guy

called Cobas Clawson's.

Cobas is a, uh, former
executive outcomes,

uh, fire force leader
and the former officer

in the parachute
regiment in the south

African defense force.

And he became, uh, a
very good friend of

mine over the course
of a number of years.

But in those days I
started talking to

him initially, um,
remotely of course

then eventually met him
in person in London.

And finally, I spent
a couple of weeks with

him in Sierra Leone.

And that was fascinating
because the, um, what

happened in Sierra Leone
in the, in the early

nineties, I mean, Sierra
Leone, like sadly, a

bunch of west Africa
hasn't had, shall we

say the most peaceful
couple of decades.

But in particular,
in the, in the early

nineties, a group of,
well, a mix of different

librarian and foreign
interests decided to

ferment unrest inside,
uh, inside the country

and lots of problems and
suits chief amongst them

being, um, a guerrilla
army that was funded,

rebels shall we say,
so-called revolutionary

united front.

Uh, that simultaneously
took over the diamond

mines, thereby cutting
off one of the biggest

revenue streams
for the country.

The country ran out
to the ability to

pay its own troops.

The troops
didn't have food.

The troops then revolted
and specifically went and

joined the rebel groups.

So the whole country
is in disarray.

They've got no
ability to keep the

peace whatsoever.

Into the vray a
group of, uh, private

contractors who, in those
days they openly call

the cells mercenaries
because as far as

they were concerned,
that's what they were.

They were
soldiers for hire.

They came in to
stabilize the country.

Ultimately they ended
up preventing a genocide

and they certainly did it
in, in a, in a, in a very

explicit, aggressive, uh,
precise use of force way.

There was no, no
question about it.

They came in there
and if people were

causing problems,
they killed them.

Unfortunately, those are
complicated environments

to be, to be operating in
under international law.

So even though they were
able to stabilize the

scenario in ways in which
the United Nations, not

only likely couldn't
have done, but quite

explicitly failed to do
when something similar

happened, both in Sierra
Leone and in Rwanda.

Roundabout the same
decade executive outcomes

did do this, uh, in a
way that whether you

argue from an ethical
perspective, whether

it was correct or not,
it saved hundreds of

thousands of lives and
stop the bloodshed cold.

And Cobas was a
key part of that.

And I was fascinated
by that story.

And, and again, it
wasn't, I wasn't there

to make comment on
whether or not this was

the right thing to do.

I was mostly trying
to understand

the human angle.

I was trying to
understand what kind

of people do this, uh,
what are they doing and

why they're doing it?

So, um, the, the
movie ended up running

the gamut of looking
at aspects of, uh,

shall we say, north
American contractors.

So that would be
companies like,

uh, Blackwater and
triple canopy, uh,

south African focus
companies like airiness.

And so this was present
day stuff in the middle

east, and then some of
the historical stuff,

including Sierra Leone
and Equatorial Guinea.

And the initial thing
that I made was the

feature length doc.

The feature length doc
ran remember exactly, but

roundabout 90 minutes.

And it was incredibly
well recieved.

I ended up testifying in
front of the us Senate as

a subject subject matter
expert on the usage of

contractors and warfare.

And I ended up, um,
you know, a number

of different channels
asked to license

the documentary.

I said no to a lot
of the initial deals.

And one of the reasons
I said no to a lot of

the initial deals was
ironically similar to

why I had a bit of a
falling out with a CBC.

I don't know if you
remember the story,

but I was living in
Vancouver at the time.

And early on, when I
put together the package

for the documentary with
some initial interview

material, uh, I came to
the CBC and I thought,

well, you know, I don't
really know how these

things are made, but
presumably you guys fund

documentaries like this,
hey, let's, let's see

if we can work together.

And they immediately
said, this is amazing.

Let's do this.

This is amazing access
and it's really timely

and we like the style.

Uh, we'd love
to be involved.

We'll fund the whole
documentary and

the one condition.

And I said, what's that?

And they said, you need
to make sure the tone of

the documentary is anti
security contractor.

And you need, you need
to show them running

rough shot over a
Rocky civilians.

And I said, hang
on a second.

Am I suggesting for
a second that this

stuff never happens.

Absolutely not.

It does happen.

And it certainly
happens because when

you're a, because
people make mistakes

be because there's bad
apples around, some

people are stupid.

And moreover, as I
mentioned earlier in the

talk in the early stages
of the recruitment cycle,

the first jobs were
always filled by very,

very qualified people.

But so many thousands of
individuals were needed.

The criteria ended
up becoming relaxed.

So you ended up paying
guys who didn't have the

right level of experience
going over and screwing

things up and getting
some cases themselves.

In some cases, others
killed in the process

point being with a
CBC, as I said, my

aim is not to verify,
vilify or to glorify.

Um, but the, the whole
idea is that this is

neither anti, nor pro
security contractor.

And they said, no,
this is pro security

contractor by virtue
of the fact that

it's not auntie.

And I said, screw
this, this is bullshit.

I'm not doing it right.

So, sorry, refuse to
work with the CBC for

that reason alone.

And it's, it's kind of
sad because the, the

year after the movie
was completed, que que

a couple of years worth
of traveling around war

zones, doing lots of
interviews, securing the

right people, talking
to some politicians

and lobbyists in
Washington, DC, the usual

stuff that you would
need to put together,

a story like this.

And I was very proud
of what we achieved and

finally we submitted
it to, at the time it

was the Leo awards.

I'm trying to remember
the name of the awards

for British Columbia
film and TV awards.

So it was, it was a
nice little, uh, I

guess, bittersweet
victory against the

CBC because there were
seven documentaries

I believe, submitted
that year for the

best documentary, best
directing, best writing

and best editing prize.

All other six, other
than ours were funded

purely by the CBC.

We won in all categories.

So.

That's fantastic.

It's like, you
know, it's, it's

sad because the CBC
really didn't need to

take this position.

Uh, they just did for,
I guess, ideological

reasons, but ultimately
what, you know, the,

the, the, the, I
guess the quality of

the storytelling and
the fact that we did

not take sides, uh,
prevailed because

people really liked it.

And I definitely
enjoyed showing the

documentary and I
enjoyed the Q and A's

that went alongside it.

For example, I um, when
we did our theatrical

premiere in New York, I
did a Q and A afterwards,

and I put on stage,
uh, um, a guy who

worked for Blackwater
and a representative

of the United Nations.

Now these are not
traditionally the

kind of people you
would see on stage

together at any panel.

But I did that
deliberately because I

wanted to see what kind
of discussion we could

have, because I think
both, both entities, not

only have a voice, but
deserve to have a voice.

And the, there, there are
discussions that need to

be had with, with, with,
uh, with both elements

of that ecosystem.

So, and I did that
quite a lot, and I

thought that was,
that was fascinating.

In fact, at the world
premier, which was at

the south by Southwest
film festival, I flew

out, uh co-vice I think
it was his, his first

high profile interview.

And I flew out Alan Bell.

And that was
really interesting.

There was all the
recordings of that

somewhere, just doing,
doing a kind of, after

you see this whole movie.

So in the end for I'm
sure that we'll be able

to include a link here.

Absolutely.

But while I, while
initially this is

a little while ago,
obviously this movie

came out while initially
the bulk of people were

seeing this on DVDs.

And I don't know, many
of us probably don't

even have a DVD player
anymore, but, uh, I got.

Just to give you an
idea of the enduring

popularity of, of
the, of the, of not

just the theme and
the subject, but also

this particular story.

Uh, after, I'd say maybe
four years of this being

out on DVD and steadily
being viewed, including

many, many academic
educational institutions

who would buy the
license to be able to

use this as part of
their teaching material.

Um, I got sick of
seeing and taking down

on YouTube people who
had illegally uploaded

versions of the movie
in its entirety.

And they'd racked up
to 3 million views in

some cases with ads.

And I thought, okay,
goodness, I'm not going

to fight these guys.

I'm just going
to do my own.

So I put the official
version up and of course,

Google being Google.

Uh, I never got the
money back for the

revenue that those
guys got from the ads.

They just struck
them down.

And the movie still,
I think my official

version is now at 2
million something views.

Nice.

But the other ones all
between them, if you add

up all the illegal ones
over the years, it's

probably 10 million plus,
and that's on top of

that a couple of years.

I did sign a foreign
sales deal with a company

called Journeymen and
Journeyman's entire

back catalog got
put on Amazon Prime.

So I was surprised
about a year ago, this

friend of mine was
watching The Kingdom.

I don't know if you
remember the movie,

Jamie Fox and a bunch
of other people go to

investigate a bombing in,
uh, uh, in Saudi Arabia.

So he sends me a
photograph that he

quickly took with
his phone at the

end of The kingdom.

They put up, if you
like this movie,

you should check out
Shadow Company cause

it's on Amazon Prime.

And so I was like,
wow, that's awesome.

And surprise, surprise,
that was when they

were just promoting it.

And ever since then,
let's just say that

for a movie that's
10 years old at this

point, if not longer,
the there's a continuous

monthly revenue stream
just from people who

are watching this
thing on Amazon Prime.

So there's still an
audience for this and

I'm still as fascinated
by the subject as I was.

In fact, there's
a segue here.

If we want to into
executive outcomes,

because the company
that Cobas worked for,

that he was one of the,
one of the, um, one

of the key players in,
uh, they, they occupy

a special place in
history as far as on the

security contractor side.

And I thought it was
interesting enough to

explore essentially a
story of bad guys doing

good things that I
ended up, uh, writing a

screenplay about this.

Screenplays called
Executive Outcomes.

And there's been
lots of interest from

various different
Hollywood players in the

screenplay, but Hollywood
being Hollywood, they

want this for Ridley
Scott to direct or pick

another famous director.

In this case, Ridley
Scott, it was because

of Black Hawk Down.

And lots of people
have asked to buy the

screenplay, but I don't
want to do that because

I want to direct it.

So.

Good for you.

That's the plan.

And in the process, one
of the things I made is,

this little thing, which
is a graphic novel of

the entire screenplay,
which was actually two

reasons to do that.

One was that from a
director perspective,

it was a fascinating
exercise because the

whole thing is sort of
like doing a storyboard

for every shot.

Right.

So if I can feel the
movie visually, if I

can visualize it, I can
do the graphic novel.

But second of all,
because I'm fascinated

by discovering new
things and figuring

out new ways to work in
different environments.

So understanding,
understanding

storytelling in
a, in a comic book

is fascinating.

I'll give you an
example of something.

So I don't know,
let's pick one, just

one panel and trying
to make this, so the

reflections aren't there.

Yeah.

It's obvious if you
think about the story

that takes place in the
panel, because you're

looking at something,
looks like a movie frame,

some of these speaking,
you see composition

there's stuff going
on in the background.

The interesting thing
is the story that

happens in the gap
because you're asking

the reader to imagine
the transition from this

visual, to this visual.

And it's those kinds
of things in a movie,

this happens in a cut.

So it happens
very rapidly.

It's just a brief
second and you're

already guiding the
viewer, but in the

comic book, the story
that happens in the gap

is kind of interesting
to conceptualize.

And it was for me, a
fascinating challenge

to took much longer
than I expected to

make the graphic novel.

But yeah, the first
printing sold out

lots of great reviews.

Um, the process of
making the actual movie.

Yeah.

Let's just say
it's taken awhile.

And I believe that it'll
get there, especially

nowadays with, with
the likes of Amazon

and apple and, um, and
Netflix, very hungry

to, to fill that.

Databases with
material that people

find compelling and
the performance of

movies like, uh,
Triple frontier or

extraction, uh, neither
of which I thought were

particularly great,
but, uh, they they're

extremely popular and
they indicate that people

want thoughtful action.

We're not talking about
one guy Rambo style

coming in and fighting an
entire army single-handed

with two rocket launches.

Yeah.

That's stuff worked
in the eighties, but

now nowadays there's
no reason why we can't

have an action movie,
which is, which is, um,

a thinking man's movie.

But at the same time,
when violence is

necessary, it should
be authentic for I'm

talking about something.

That's I don't know if
you remember the movie

Syriana but for example,
Sierra is a very, it's a,

it's a very complicated
movie to watch.

It's not a lot of fun to
watch, even though it's

important subject matter.

And I think that
there's an unnecessary

distinction.

Like somehow if
you're serious, you're

supposed to be serious.

You're not
allowed to be fun.

But if you're a fun
movie, then you were only

really allowed to be fun.

If you're a superhero
movie, you can't be a

fun movie about war.

So I think there's scope
here to make something

that's a hybrid that
there's no, there's no

reason why you can't
have black humor inside

a serious narrative
about a dysfunctional

foreign policy.

So that's my plan.

My plan is to stay true
to the style that I

established from the
narrative dynamic of

the documentary and make
a drama around that.

But we'll see, Hollywood
takes a lot of convincing

one step at a time.

That's good, incredibly

exciting.

And I like the way
that you look at it

from those, from those
different perspectives,

I've never actually
thought about.

A graphic novel and
the story that's being

told in between frames
that's uh, what was your

background in filmmaking?

You're basically
self-taught aren't you

pretty much.

Yeah, I'm I, um, so
from the filmmaking

perspective, what
happened was, I

obviously like, like,
you know, millions of

people in the world, I
like consuming movies.

And I started dabbling
in, in recording

my own stuff.

When I was spending a
lot of time doing outdoor

activities, primarily
focused on wind surfing

and skiing, uh, in
particular, the first,

slightly longer format
thing I did was when I

sold my first startup
and I moved to Hawaii.

So I was living on the
north shore of Maui

and I recorded lots of
different interviews

with people and lots
of different ways.

This was, this is a
long time ago, I'm

old, but, uh, this was,
this was pre GoPro.

Believe it or not.

So you couldn't just
slap a GoPro on a helmet.

We were making custom
waterproof housings

with remote triggers for
cameras that would stick

on a nose of the board or
somewhere on the sale of

the mast in order to be
able to record different

water sports activities.

But from.

You know, I don't know
how many surfing or

snowboarding movies
you've watched,

but there's only
a certain number.

Yeah.

There's only so many
times that I can see a

guy doing bottom turn
and a cutback with some

cool thrashing rock
track in the background.

It gets a little
boring to me.

I wanted more it's
the human angle that

I was interested.

So the particular piece
I made was called stuck.

And it was because
specifically the

Hawaiian islands for
a European, I mean,

I was born and raised
in, in what was then

Yugoslavia eventually
became Croatia.

So very much European,
every aspect of my

upbringing and Maui is
really far it's halfway

around the world.

But I found that there
was a lot of people

there who come there
for one reason and

then they ended up, you
know, one thing leads

to another and suddenly
five years has gone by

and they're still there.

So that's why I called
the project stuck

because people get stuck
there for a variety

of different reasons.

So I made this 15 minute
short film called stuck,

which I really liked.

And I wasn't sure exactly
whether I didn't for me,

this wasn't the career.

This was just, it
was a fun thing

to do on the side.

And when I, uh,
round towards the

tail end of my time,
living in Hawaii,

I had just, I had.

The I was lucky and
the timing was right.

And obviously some
element of scale, et

cetera, came into play,
but there's a lot of

luck involved, but I sold
a startup successfully

when I was 20, just, just
before my 24th birthday.

And so I was lucky
to be able to have

lots of freedom.

I spent somewhere in the
order of a year and a

half on the north shore
of Hawaii, trying to

figure out what to do
next in the process,

fell in love with where
the girl that I'm still

with still in love with,
and which is good thing,

because if I wasn't in
love with her, it'd be a

bit of a problem together
for a very long time.

And she became, you know,
she's used a soulmate

as well as a creative
partner, as well as a

professional partner.

And actually she was the
one who challenged me

to transition into film
because she saw some

stuff that I'd made and
she thought it was pretty

good, but she, herself as
a professional, she was

an actress and a writer.

And she'd worked on
a number of different

shows as a lead, uh,
and or guest star,

uh, in, in Vancouver.

And she, she
started into movies.

And so at some point,
I think after, if you

listened to me a bitch
about, you know, the

third project in a
row saying this was

bad, it should be done
like this, this, this

is not interesting.

Here's how it
would be better.

She said, you know
what, why don't you

stop criticizing
other people's work

and make your own?

And I went, oh,
that's right.

I don't actually have
a comeback to that.

So.

So, I didn't know.

I mean, you said
self-taught, I mean,

behind every, as the
joke goes, you know,

behind every great man,
there's a, something

behind every filmmaker.

There's a team of
creative collaborators

and some of them
are people who.

Perhaps gave you
input along the

way, but weren't
actively involved.

Some of them are people
who give you feedback

during the edits and help
tighten everything up.

But in some cases,
whether it's the

sound guy or the DP
or, or someone who's

just advising as the
project's being made,

no, there's no such
thing as a one man show

on the filmmaking side.

So yes, I carry the
credit of director and

writer and producer
and editor, but let's

just say that there
was a lot of people

involved to help
make that documentary

as good as it was.

Uh, but yes, the, it
was, it was definitely

a baptism by fire.

So whether it was from
the equipment perspective

or from the scope, cause
it was very ambitious.

Shall we say?

I mean, just to give
you an idea, uh, I

was when I edit, I
often edit to music.

So I put music in
to help drive the

rhythm of the piece.

So by the time the
documentary was finished,

there were 14 commercial
music tracks in there.

Now, normally what people
do is, is if you're,

if you're a normal,
low budget, independent

filmmakers, you go,
okay, well, I've got

these commercial music
tracks, but I can't

just go out and get the
rolling stones because

that's too expensive.

So I'm going to swap
it with something

that kind of sort
of sounds like it.

Yeah, well, I was stupid
enough to not do that.

So, so I took my that's
not strictly true.

Some, two of them
we swapped out, but

because we couldn't get
the rights, but what

we ended up doing is
I ended up learning.

Let's just say more
than I expected to

about, about rights and
negotiations and likeness

rights and dealing with
lawyers to get releases.

But in the end, You know,
we ended up, I mean,

we interviewed Stephen
J Cannell, who was the

creator of the, a team.

And we had a sequence in
there with, which had the

ATM opening theme tune
and the opening titles.

Right.

And I didn't want
to drop it because I

thought it was important.

This particular sequence
of the, of the film

discusses, how the
concept of mercenaries

is treated by the media
and what, what role

that plays in the way
they're perceived.

So I thought it was
fundamental to the

structure of it.

But, you know, phoning
up the studio and saying,

Hey, can we have the
license to the 18 theme

tune was met with a
resounding no, right.

Slowly but surely
we wore them down.

And that ended up, I
had to talk to, um, Mr.

T's manager.

I had to talk to, um,
Dwight Schultz who played

howling, Matt Murdoch.

Uh, I talked to Dirk
Benedict himself.

He's he played face, man.

Uh, and I can't remember
who played Hannibal

George per part.

Yes.

Uh, George for part,
unfortunately is no

longer with us, but,
uh, but yes, his,

his state willingly
licensed all this stuff,

so it took a while,
but, but we got there.

So, yeah, that was
definitely a very

interesting couple
of years of my life.

Trying to, um, understand
the hard way shall we say

how to tell compelling
stories, but however

much effort it was then,
as I mentioned with the

Amazon stuff, that's
happening to this day,

uh, it goes to show you
that if you, I think

if you make something,
if you're, if you're a

discerning judge of your
material, if you make

something that satisfies
your standards, then you

can hold your head high.

And even though, uh,
it's possible that I

could have met a lot
more money if I had.

Plates to one side of
the political equation

and made, for example,
I don't know either an

extremely right-leaning
who Rob pro war gun

movie, or the other
way around and made

extremely left-leaning
a war is hell.

And these companies
were all evil.

Perhaps it could have
made more money, but I

didn't want to do that.

I wanted to make
something that I felt

was honest and sincere.

And th and I'm
glad I did that.

Uh, one thing I've
always kind of wondered

you get a pretty famous
person narrating this

video, you had Dre
Butler doing the, uh, the

narration on that one.

So,

so there is a backstory
here, and since I don't,

since I don't want
to embarrass her, uh,

there's a, there's a girl
involved in this mix.

Let's just say
a long time ago.

Um, someone who I knew
fairly well as one might

when one is young and
single, um, happened

to know Jerry, um,
and she just said, oh,

you should meet Jerry.

He'd be kind of a,
he's a cool guy.

This is way before the
movie was being made.

So, so I'm, you know,
I met Jerry in a

strange context at a
nightclub in London.

He was very friendly.

I think he was, he was
up there shooting some

movie about dragons.

I can't for the life of
me, remember what it's

called, but, uh, Um, I'm
sure I will, but anyway,

so he students move about
dragons and he, he's

very, very friendly to me
and we stayed in touch.

And so when I'm thinking
about who would be a

great guy to narrate
this, I thought, you

know, I need this kind
of Husky weather, the

voice, and it would
be kind of cool if it

was an accent in it.

And what about if we got
someone Scottish and I

didn't think, oh, Jerry,
and then randomly, I

can't remember why it
popped into my head.

I think, I think I
remember Dominique was

invited to some gifting
lounge, a gifting lounges

of these things they
do for four actresses

and actors where they
were companies give

them products in a, in
an attempt to promote

and spread the message.

She invited to
gifting lounge.

And Jerry was there.

And as I started
talking to him, I'm

like that voice.

That's what I need.

So I said, Hey, do you
want to do this thing?

And he goes, how much
money do you have?

And I'm like, I
don't have any money.

You idiot.

So he's like, it
doesn't work that way.

And I'm like, dude, it's
going to take you like

40 minutes to do it.

Just shut up and do it.

And he's like, okay.

And I'm like, I can't
believe that worked.

So, so we get them
in the studio and uh,

and of course there's
a big sign that says.

No smoking in the
studio and, and the

woman, who's the
manager, uh, effectively

producing the, the
shoot, this particular

recording session.

She, she comes in and
she goes, yeah, you're

not allowed to smoke.

And he just looks at
her and lights up a

cigarette and continues.

So she just walks away.

And as it happens,
the, the kind of the

tobacco rasp, I think,
is helpful because as

it ends up sounding more
authentic in this case.

So he did, he did a
great job doing that.

I mean, I, he didn't
really need much

direction at all, if
any, if, if anything,

what we needed, cause
it was being done pretty

quickly as he needed a
little bit, a little bit

of explanation of the
terms and the context,

but I mean, he's, uh, you
know, the is a very, very

experienced performer.

So he understood from
reading it what we

were trying to do.

And, uh, it's um, I
think it was very happy

with the final work.

I mean, he, as I
said, he, he didn't

do this for money.

He did it because
he thought it was an

interesting story and
he wanted to contribute.

And frankly, it wasn't
that much effort for

him to just read a bunch
of stuff in character.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

It's, you know, when
I, when I look at your

life and I keep seeing
things popping up, I was

looking for that video.

Cause at one point
I saw a video of

you actually you're
testifying before Senate.

I think it was that
actually I couldn't

find it again.

Yeah.

That video does
exist somewhere.

So what happened.

I, uh, I was trying
to get as much

awareness of the
documentary as possible.

So I went to the
media liaison.

I sent a copy of the
documentary to the

media liaison of every
Senator, both democratic

and Republican,
uh, on the Senate

armed subcommittee.

And all of them got back
to me essentially saying

verses of the same thing,
which is, this is great.

Can we have another
20 copies of this?

Because we want to
use it as training

material for our, for
all of our interns

and our other staff.

But, uh, we can't
give you an official

statement because, and
it depends on whether

they were Democrat
or Republican in the

case of the Democrats.

They said, because
it isn't sufficiently

on brand for
what we're doing.

And in the case of the
Republicans, they said,

well, you know, it
takes slight digs of the

current administration,
so, and their handling

of the conflict in Iraq.

So therefore we
don't really want to

publicly support it,
but it's amazing.

Can we have some more?

So I thought that
was pretty funny.

I'm in particular, the
line they wanted taken

out because there was
a line and there were

one of the characters
says, um, George Bush

creates a wild west
scenario in Iraq.

If you've got near
for hire there's

work for you.

So I say to the guy,
I'm talking to him

on the phone, I go,
but, but that's true.

And he goes, yeah, I
know that's true, but

we just don't want to
officially say that.

And I'm like, oh,
well, you know,

it is what it is.

Right?

So, so in the end,
what happened was the

late Ted Kennedy, uh,
was the exception.

And he said,
this is great.

And I would like to
officially, uh, hold

a screening on Capitol
hill with a Q and a,

uh, and we did do that.

They, we hired a private
theater somewhere and

we invited a bunch of
staffers and a number

while, while very
few actual members

of Congress came
to that screening.

Uh, they did send
almost everybody sends

a representative as
there was a lot of media

coverage of that event.

Uh, Congresswoman Jan
Schakowsky, I believe

was the main person who
was there at the Q and

a, and then, uh, as a
result of the response

to that screening, there
was an actual event.

I forget what it's
called, but I guess

it's a testimony that
was a testimony in

front of, uh, in front
of the U S Senate.

And that was the,
the so-called subject

matter expert testimony
on the usage of

mercenaries in Iraq.

But the funny
part is that.

For someone who's
never done this before.

Namely me, it's
a really, really

interesting introduction
into how this stuff

actually works.

You see, I thought that
the idea was, as you

know, I come there,
I make my five minute

statement, which I'm
being asked to prepare.

And then I'm asked
questions and I'm

assuming that they want
to know the answers

to the questions.

That's why I'm, that's
why I'm there to ought

to be, to answer those
questions because I'm

the expert because that's
not what, that's not

what actually happens.

What actually happens
is they want to get the

questions on record.

They carry what a bit
less about the answer

that I give than they
do about getting their

statement on record.

And I mean this across
the board, both on

the Republican and the
Democrat side, because

when all is said and
done what's necessary

is for them to show
that they're making

an effort and thinking
about a particular thing.

So I was frankly,
astounded.

By how, how their
questions demonstrated

how little they knew
about the subject.

And I mean, I can
understand if you just

get plucked in the
middle of nowhere at a

barbecue, and somebody
starts talking to you

about a particular
subject, that's very,

very niche that you
may not know about it.

But if it's the usage
of contractors in a

major conflict that
the country is involved

in, and on top of that,
it's a session that

you're preparing for.

And on top of that,
somebody is preparing

questions for you.

It was baffling to
me that the question

seemed a bit inane.

And that's why when I
look at, for example, I

don't know the testimony
of people like mark

Zuckerberg or, or
when various different

executives are called
in front of Congress and

the Senate to testify and
look at some of the daft

questions that are asked.

I don't even roll my
eyes anymore because

I remember what it
was like for me.

And when I thought, wait
a second, you're asking

something that, that
doesn't make any sense.

That means you
fundamentally

misunderstood what your.

What the problem
is, I believe, I

don't remember.

It's been a long
time, but I believe

the opening line of
my, of my five minute

testimony testimony
was that it's baffling

to me that the highest
level of law makers in

this land are asking
for expert testimony

from a first time
documentary filmmaker.

Whereas, whereas
it should be the

other way around.

Right.

And I don't, I mean,
let's just say, I,

I didn't anticipate
ever being invited

back, put it that way.

So I had nothing, I
had nothing to lose.

I just thought I'm
just going to say my

bit and answer the
questions as best I can.

And we'll see
what happens.

I don't know that I'd
make a good politician,

but that, wasn't
why I was there.

I was there because
I thought I'm going

to answer questions
because that's what I

believe I'm here for

a whole different stage
on the political level.

Isn't it?

Yeah.

Now you also did
something with vice

documentary, didn't you?

That was on the,
uh, the Boko Haram.

It was.

Yeah.

So what happened as a
result of, uh, working

in and around this
space of contractors?

I, as I mentioned, I'm,
I became quite close to

a couple of individuals,
chief amongst them,

Alan and cobras.

And, uh, one day, a
couple of years had

gone by, and one day I
received this call, um,

from, from Cobas saying.

Hey, listen, there's a,
there's a contract coming

up and, um, I need some
media coverage for it.

And I said, what,
what does that mean?

What's a contract.

And he's like, well,
and he, and he's, he's

being evasive, but
also careful, but he

eventually does reveal
that there is a, uh,

there's a, the Nigerian
government has contracted

with a group, um,
from South Africa to,

to essentially stamp
out the vocal Harambe

problem, uh, PRI in the
run-up to the elections.

Now, as it happens, the
president lost those

elections, the president
who had contracted with

them, which created
all kinds of problems

for, for contracts and
payments, but that's

well beyond the scope
of, of this conversation.

From my perspective,
what was fascinating

for me is that, uh, is
knowing ahead of time

that there would be an,
there would be activity,

which would, which
would be fascinating

to explore from a
storytelling perspective.

So while between that
initial conversation and

the actual deployment of
the crew on the ground,

I think two or three
months past that most,

perhaps even less than
that, but let's just say

that I ended up having
to rapidly put together

a crew as well as
structural story, as well

as find a broadcast or
in this case of ice was,

was a really good fit.

So, um, The hunt for
book or Harambe, I

believe is the, is the
name of this piece.

And it's, it's
easily find-able.

And I ended up for a
variety of different

reasons, primarily to
do with my green card.

For, for those who don't
know when you're in your

final steps of getting
your green card, you

can't leave the country.

So, uh, and I was
literally two or

three weeks out.

If I'd left the
country, I would have,

I either had to get it.

In which case, if I got
it, I could be involved,

uh, on the ground in this
project or I had to, or

I had to wait because if
I left prior to getting

it, the whole cycle
resets and I might have

to wait for another year
or two before I got it.

So I had to quickly
find someone who was

dumb enough and brave
enough to, to run

point instead of me.

And I found a guy
called Carl Larson.

So if you do look up
this piece, a former Navy

seal called cars Larson.

Couple of stints
advice news.

Um, I, so I set up the
entire project, talked

everything up on the
ground and control

the whole thing.

Creative would remotely.

But if you do look up
this piece, you, you

won't find, you won't
find me on the screen.

Uh, you will find me as
an executive producer

of the project, but
yeah, there was lots of

conversations since about
doing various different

things with vice vice
has changed quite a lot.

The vice doesn't take
into near as many

risks as they used
to in the material

they've become too big.

But, uh, but it was, it
was certainly fun to get

involved in that project,
especially because I

remember a couple of
unusual things happening,

for example, uh, um,
college, a nine Cobas,

and I would communicate
quite regularly.

And, uh, one day in,
uh, in the middle of the

night, like about 2:00 AM
or something, phone rings

and answer the phone.

Cause I don't know
what's going to happen.

And there's an active
project in an active

war zone going on.

So for all I know
there's a satellite

phone call coming in
and ready to answer it.

So I answered the phone
as department of state

and I go, Hey, what's up?

And they go a
unique business.

Should I go?

Yep.

And they said, yeah,
one of our assets is

missing in Nigeria.

And I go, I'm
sorry, what?

And they said, yeah, one
of our assets will sort

of come onto cause Larson
is missing in Nigeria.

And I'm like, what
do you mean missing?

Define missing.

Cause my next check-in
with them is in three

hours and he goes, yeah,
he missed his last check.

And then I go,
not with me here.

As far, as far as I'm
concerned, uh, he's not

there on, on an active
government mission, he's

there on a vice project.

And he said, yeah,
that's right.

Something, something,
something, the point is

they'd lost track of him
turns out that the reason

this happened is because
some girl that caused

was semi involved with,
at that time, he told

her he was going to call
her at a certain point.

He didn't call her.

She didn't
answer the phone.

She went bananas.

She thought
something happened.

She pushed the panic
button, happened

to know someone at
department of state.

All of a sudden one plus
one equals a thousand.

So I thought
it was a fun.

It was, it was pretty
funny that, uh, let's

just say that domino
effects are, or butterfly

effects are quite a real
thing in this scenario.

So yeah, lots of, lots of
interesting side stories.

The tail end, you know,
vices, vices, a lovely

place to be if they're
willing to take certain

risks, but it's also
nasty place to be.

Um, because it's very
easy to get screwed

over as an independent
filmmaker by price.

And sadly that happened
in this case because

they wanted to do
another piece about

vocal Harum and they
did it using some

contexts that were mine.

Um, but without any,
without asking you about

this, I didn't even know
it was happening until

my guys called me and
said, what's going on?

Why is vise doing
a follow-up piece?

So it's a shitty
thing to do, but it's

the prerogative of
big broadcasters.

So you gotta be careful
because you're playing

with fire when you
play with companies.

No kidding.

Well,

it's a hell of a
good documentary.

I'm going to put a
link to it in the,

uh, in the podcast
on YouTube as well.

Uh, very interesting.

Same with the
executive outcomes.

I mean, that was what 120
550 professional soldiers

that stabilized an entire

country.

Yeah, it was 150
versus 15,000.

So, so a little bit
magnificent seven ask.

But, uh, but obviously,
you know, one side just

had a case and they
were kids and the other

side were highly trained
soldiers with gunships,

but nonetheless,
it's still, it's not,

it's not a normal
scenario by any means.

And it's, it's that
very thing that makes

it a fascinating
story to explore.

So I'm definitely looking
forward to telling

that story at, uh, on a
larger dramatic scale.

So, um, if there's anyone
here who knows people

at Amazon tell them
they should make a movie

version of this because
they should it's ready.

Absolutely.

So then I watched echo
echo, and that was a

neat adventure that
you started working on.

But I think an Apple's
find me kind of a mess

with that one a little
bit, but it seemed

like it was completely,
completely different from

all of the other things
that you've been doing.

You seem to be able
to pivot really,

really well.

They, um, I mean,
there's a term, a

Renaissance, man.

It sounds a little
bit sort of lofty, but

what it really means
is that I like to skip

between the left and
right side of my brain.

One side is
quite technical.

The other side is
quite creative.

So the creative side
is constantly looking

for stories, stories
that I find interesting

to read about, to be a
part of, to create, or

I want to essentially
when I read something

or watch something that
I'm curious about, I

like the way that makes
me feel the curiosity

is vital to driving me,
to making me want to

wake up every morning.

I constantly
want to learn.

And when I do that,
I want to share that

with other people.

Sometimes it's as simple
as going, oh look, here's

an interesting story.

He's interesting medium
post an instinct podcast.

I'm going to share it
with my friends, but

sometimes it's a lot
more complicated and

that's sometimes it's
my particular way of

looking at the story.

And I connect this fact
with this fact and in the

middle, I add a little
bit of a spin to it.

So that often meant
that sometimes I would

write about stuff I
did write on medium

for, for a fair while.

And sometimes it would
require more than that,

whether it was making a
documentary or creating

a product or creating a
company, or in this case,

writing a screenplay
for executive outcomes.

But there were,
there were all very

similar things.

So in the case that
you mentioned, which

is echo echo, this
was, this was a couple

of different things.

One was that I was
frustrated with Hollywood

because Hollywood,
there's a bit of a catch

22 inside a catch 22
in Hollywood, whereby

it doesn't matter how
good your material is.

There's gotta be a
reason why somebody

will give you the money
to make a project.

And usually the reason
is because you made a

project before and it
was really successful.

Yeah.

That's great.

But how you make the
first project because

it's all well, and good.

If you've just
directed, I don't know.

Iron man three and
they go, Hey, we're

doing Ironman for you.

Want to do it again?

We'll surprise.

Surprise that it's
easy, but how do you

get the first one?

And it's always an
interesting problem

because either you have
a shit ton of money, so

you do it yourself or
your, the son or daughter

or husband or boyfriend
of somebody super famous

and you effectively
get them to be in it.

They do it for you or
you, or, you know, a

famous director or, you
know, a famous producer.

It's very, very rare that
you can just brute force

to use a sort of, um, a
computer security term.

You can brute force
your way to, to getting

a project greenlit.

So I was slowly but
steadily learning

the ropes of how
to make things

happen in Hollywood.

And, uh, ultimately I
got frustrated waiting

and I decided, well,
hang on a second.

Perhaps Silicon valley
is a little more

meritocratic because
of Silicon valley.

If you come with
a good idea, you

really only have one
level of gatekeeper.

If you can cook,
if you need money

for the project, if
you can convince a

venture capital firm.

And usually it's a,
either a junior partner

or senior partner,
depending on the size

of the firm, but it's
usually only one or two

levels of pitch meeting
that you have to go

through and you can get.

A seed round funded,
whether it's depends on

what you need, $250,000,
$1 million, but up to

$1 million worth of
initial funding rounds

are not uncommon.

If you know what
you're talking about.

If you have a compelling
enough product that

you can articulate
correctly to investors.

So that's exactly what
happened with echo echo.

Uh, I was, this was
prior to the days

of find my phone.

And prior to the days
of being able to send,

send your location
very easily, I was

frustrated because I
had just moved to Los

Angeles and I found it
hard to meet up with

my girlfriend because
I would constantly go,

okay, it's a giant city.

I'm driving everywhere.

There's no, there's
no real core that

you can walk around.

Like there isn't in
many other cities,

including Vancouver or
wherever where we'd be

living up until then.

So my most common
text message I was

sent to my girlfriend
was where are you?

And, um, she'd go, oh,
I'm at the corner of, I

dunno, Melrose and third.

Well, that's great, but
I have no idea where

that is because I don't
know LA, so I would type

into my phone to Google
Melrose and third, an

upward pop-up a blue dot.

With where mellow, sorry,
not a blue dot up, but

pop up a dot of Melrose.

And third, the problem
is I now know where

she is, but she doesn't
know where I am.

So that's annoying.

So I thought this
is ridiculous.

There's got to be a
better way of doing

this has gotta be a
simple way that I can

ping that's the echo.

And if she responds,
pops up on her phone

saying Nick was
through where you are.

Yes or no.

And if she says,
no, nothing happens.

If she says, yes,
we see each other

immediately and we
can find each other.

And we even have the
ability to click and

suggest a meeting point.

It would suggest a
meeting point like you

could say hit, okay,
I want this Starbucks.

Then we would both get
a ping saying, Hey,

meeting at the Starbucks,
go and we'd find each

other super simple,
super elegant surprise,

surprise, Google ventures
back this because it's an

easy and obvious addition
to Google maps and for

a variety of different
reasons, lots of lessons

learned along the way.

It didn't quite work
out as a startup, but

it was a fascinating,
um, accelerated learning

experience of how to
structure a startups.

How does venture
capital work in Silicon

valley, um, how to
make cross-platform

applications?

Because ultimately we
ended up doing this

on Android and iPhone
and Blackberry and

Nokia was well for,
for a hot second there,

it looked like Nokia
might actually be a

platform, which for all
intents purposes, they

should have been, but
they dropped the ball.

So yeah, that was a.

That was my first,
certainly not my first

technology startup.

Cause my first technology
startup was the one

back in the UK that
I sold successfully,

but this was my first
mobile application.

And also my first Silicon
valley rodeo, not the

last by any means.

So it was, uh, an
interesting time because

w what, what I ended
up realizing fairly

rapidly was that where
I'm happiest and also

most valuable to, to,
to accompany, because

essentially it's
fine to go to myself,

but ultimately when
you're part of the

company, the company
is greater than you.

Not, not just because
of the fact that there

are other employees
involved in as a team,

but also because you are
ultimately responsible

to your investors.

It's not just about you,
even though you might be

an interesting part of
the company's, uh, fame

and growth, potential,
and PR it's about return

on investment, because
ultimately if you can do

that bit successfully,
then investible

Bacchae for other
things, because you've

given them success.

Once I realized that
where I add the most

value is in being
able to, shall we say.

Uh, see into the future
a little bit further than

other people can see.

There's a, there's an old
phrase, which is, which

is, which is a funny one,
which is that, um, uh,

the difference between
talent and genius.

I don't know if you've
ever heard that one

before, but so-so talent
hits a target that

other people contact.

Right.

That makes sense.

Right.

You know, there's a
target there and people

are trying to hit it
and they can see it.

They can hit it to keep
missing a talent can

go bang and hit it.

Um, genius hits a target
that no one else can see.

So it means that
you're looking slightly

ahead and slightly
around the corner.

Cause if you can't see
the target, well, you

can't hit the thing that
doesn't make any sense.

Right.

Except that's the point
is that you need to be

aiming at something that
other people can't see.

Now, I, without at
the risk of, I say

this, obviously at
the risk of sounding,

Hey, I'm a genius.

But what I mean is
the flip side of

that is madness.

Right?

Because you could
also say madness

hits a target.

No one else can see.

Well, yeah, because
if there's no target,

why the hell are
you aiming at it?

That's nothing.

What if there's
nothing there?

And that's a problem,
but, but that's exactly

the line that I live in
on a daily basis is I

I'm slightly ahead of
the curve constantly.

Which means that if
I'm right, then that's

an phenomenal success,
but if I'm wrong, then

I'm just some idiot.

Who's doing
something that no

one else is doing.

So all I've got to do
is just keep on the

right side of that line.

And a, and I'll be fine.

So in weather now,
if I'm a little bit.

That's okay.

So long as I can convince
the right people to

back me, I'll align
things up correctly.

But when you're ahead
of the curve like that,

the, the ability to
articulate and define

the vocabulary, uh,
explain, um, motivate

and convince people to
join you on your journey.

Um, understand how to
communicate to, to a

technical audience, a
commercial audience, a

financial audience, and
kind of sit in the middle

of all those things.

That's where the
value add lies.

Um, so, or if you
wish the genius slash

madness coin, depending
on how you flip it.

So, so that's where
I constantly live.

It's um, that's,
that's how I invent.

So if I, if I look
at, for example, um,

People sometimes ask
me, you know, how do

you come up with ideas?

Well, it's easy to come
up with ideas because

fun for me, because
fundamentally things out

there are often broken.

Um, I'll give you
a ridiculously

simple example that
I never actioned.

Uh, for example, I'll
go into, I don't know.

I go into a restaurant
and I'll pick up

a salt shaker.

That's clearly full
of salt and I shake

it and nothing comes
out and I look at it

again and I shake it
and nothing comes up.

Then I on screw it.

And I realized that
because of condensation,

a bunch of salt, we've
all seen this in our

lives before a bunch
of salt is kind of

coagulated near the top
and it won't come out

and you scrape it out
and then you shake it.

And then it
works perfectly.

And I look at that
and I go, how annoying

there's a better way
to solve this, but

I don't care enough.

So I put the salt chicken
down, I eat my food and

I carry on with my life.

But that's a simplistic
example of an idea

because if in the
middle of that idea

or sorry, a simplistic
idea, generally.

Process if in the
middle of that

process, I go, Hmm,
I do care about this.

I want to solve this
because I really care

about soul check again.

I'm giving a
ridiculous example.

That's where the
ideas come in.

So one example, if you'll
permit me to segue.

Absolutely.

Nobody going to
talk about this?

Yeah.

This, this little
camera over here.

So this is called, this
is the Zicam eat too.

Yeah.

And there are multiple
different versions of

this, but the key thing
to remember, forget

about the lens and
forget about the battery.

In fact, let's pop
the battery off.

In fact, why don't
we just pop the

lens off also?

So the camera body
itself is pretty small.

You know, it's like,
it's essentially a sensor

of some compute unit in
there and then there, and

then everything else is
just the bare minimum.

It's, it's
giant heat sink.

It's a blob of metal
because the chip gets

quite hot, but that's
really all you have.

Zika.

Isn't the only company
that has a camera in

this kind of form factor.

Black magic definitely
led the idea of making

small form factor
cinematic cameras,

but nowadays, even red
with the red Komodo

has a camera in this
kind of form factor.

It's the problem with
this is you try to use

this kind of PR in a
real world context, the

economics are insane.

I mean, look, there's
one button here.

There's four
buttons here.

And this formal buttons
here, you want to change

the aperture or change
the shutter speed.

Need to click one button
twice, another button

twice, and then the
first button again.

So it's five clicks
to make something

that should really
be a click of a dial.

So I remember getting
sent this to evaluate it

because I was working a
lot in, uh, in virtual

reality and augmented
reality, making various

different projects.

And these small cameras
are quite useful for

reasons that are boring
to explain, but let's

just assume they were.

So I remember I was
evaluating this, the

first thing I thought it
was, I'm like, there's

gotta be a better way.

There's gotta be some
kind of a handle that

we can connect to camera
like this and, uh, and

make it so that you
have these dials right

at your fingertips.

And I looked around
and I thought, Hmm,

nobody's made one.

So I thought, well,
maybe I'll just make one.

See if it works.

I made one.

I don't know exactly
where the first prototype

is, but it looked a
little bit like this.

Uh, this is actually
a retail model.

Uh, there's a, there's a,
there's a metal chassis

and the metal chassis
mounts on the camera.

And then there's
two dials.

It's hard to tell, but
these dials rotate and

click in words as well.

And then there's
a main record

start, stop button.

And then there's a
wooden CNC doubter body.

And there was no real
reason to make this in

wood other than I like
the touch of woods.

So I thought, screw it.

I'm going to use wood.

So in the process,
I had to learn a lot

about 3d printing
and machining and CAD

cam design as well as
electronics design.

So, uh, when, when I
made this, I made an

initial prototype and I
figured, I didn't think,

oh, this is a product.

I thought this
is a problem.

And this is how
I would solve it.

And I showed it off
to a couple of people

in the industry and
they all said, give

me this immediately.

I want this because
this is I can't,

the camera can't
function without it.

So I thought, okay, fine.

It's a product.

Um, made the first
batch of a hundred.

Put up a pre-sale they
sold out within two

hours and I thought,
oh, okay, wow.

Really is a product.

So then we did
a batch of 200.

Then we did a batch
of 300 and slowly

but surely it becomes
essentially the main

camera handle for, for
the entire Zicam range.

This, I believe this
is all of woods.

So there's different
flavors of wood.

This has bamboo,
uh, there's a

zebra lying around
somewhere, but this

is, this is multijet.

So this is 3d printed,
but on a much more

expensive 3d printer has
a bit of a texture to it.

So the idea was that,
uh, you could connect

this thing to the
camera using this

port right there, and
then you could program

it using the USBC.

And we made it as
simple as possible

because there's a.

That's an important
thing in product design.

It's not just about
identifying the

problem set and it's
not just about having

a bunch of features.

It's for me, at
least it's knowing

what features to
say no to, because

it's very easy to.

To just add
crap to things.

It doesn't matter whether
it's a car dashboard or

whether it's a, whether
it's a weapon system.

The point is you can
always add crap onto it.

What's difficult by, you
can always add features

by adding more crap.

What's difficult is
how do you add features

by removing crap?

How do you make things
that are streamlined

and simple to control?

And I don't mean,
oh, let's make

everything controllable
by one button.

Then if you click the
button for two seconds,

then it does one thing.

If you click it for
three seconds, it does

another thing, because
then you're just

shooting yourself in
the face and things need

to need to be usable.

As, as the rule goes,
there are multiple

different quote-unquote
rules of thumb in user

experience design.

But when you're making
something for humans

to use, they've got
to be able to rapidly

know three things.

One is where are they?

And I mean, I don't
mean physically located.

I mean, in, in the
product cycle and whether

it's a menu system or
whether it's a particular

lever selection
switch, where are they?

What are the options
and how do they get

to them at the end?

If you can, if you can
intuitively understand

all three of those
things, then you can

optimize and design a
system to make, to make

things streamlined while
they're being used.

And I apply that
principle to product

design, to storytelling,
to software design, to

architecture design, and.

And this was so for
me, as I said, this

whole thing started
because Nick got a

pepper shaker, except it
wasn't a pepper shaker.

It was a camera
that didn't work.

Like I wanted it to,
and I thought this is

a solvable problem.

But in this particular
case, I cared

about solving the
problem enough to

make a prototype.

And the market told me
the rest, namely, we

want this thing to exist.

And, uh, that's,
that's how that product

came into being.

But the main, the main
overall through line

here is the one about
invention and product

design, namely, uh,
invent things that you

actually care about.

Even if somebody
presented to me, I don't

know, you know, Hey,
look, here's the greatest

way in which you might
be able to change car

tires more efficiently.

You'll, there'll
be 20% faster than

changing a car tire
with your jacket.

I would just go, I
don't care enough

about the problem.

So if from, from my
perspective, if, in terms

of words, to impart to
people who are curious

about solving, cause a
lot of people out there

who are practically
oriented, solve problems

in different ways, if
you care enough about

something for me, when
something happens,

once it's an accident,
when a problem happens,

once it happens more
than once, that's not

just a coincidence.

That probably means
that this is a problem

that needs to be solved.

And then it's a
question of, so a,

something happens more
than once B I care

enough to solve it.

Now, somewhere in there,
if you're actually

trying to be a good
businessman, C would be

other people also care
enough about this because

it's all well and good.

If you have all the
money in the time in

the world, you can build
a custom product for

just yourself to use.

But a lot of people don't
have that including me.

So even though this was
a fairly simple product

to prototype nowadays,
between between 3d

printers, that you can
get on your desktop and

perhaps some 3d printing
studios and people

you can find online to
outsource some CAD cam

design, you can make an
initial prototype pretty

quickly, but making
something at scale is

quite a lot more common.

It looks like you
leaned on your firearms

background on that
design as well.

Did you copy
any pistol grip

for that one?

Um, as it happens, no,
there was not, not a

pistol grip, but firearms
demonstrate the necessity

to have a very, very
acute, uh, focus on,

on design efficiency.

There should be no random
bits hanging off your

firearm that are not
necessary when you see

the guys at the range
and then have like six

different flashlights
and infrared pointers

and all kinds of slings.

Chances are, they're
not actually an operator

because people who
are operators tend

to have something
extremely streamlined.

If there's no,
uh, if there's no

specific reason for
something to be on

your firearm, a very,
very specific reason.

It shouldn't be
there because it's

just going to snag
or cats from break.

So there are, while we
may not have used any

specific firearm pistol
grip in the design of

this, I would certainly
say that the, the

efficiency of design of
the way in which some

firearms and firearms
related products work

was an influence in,
in my approach to

simplicity of design.

So I got

a wonder, riding that
knife sedge between.

Genius and insanity.

That's gotta be
stressful at times.

I mean, if you care
about what other people

think, I guess, and if
you're in the process of

trying to sell your ideas
or sell your concepts,

there's going to be a
certain level of caring.

What other people
think is that stressful

for you and how do
you deal with it?

Uh, so that's a big,
big question in general,

because there is
definitely people who

I'm friends with, who
say, how do you handle

the rollercoaster ride
of not having money

than having money?

So, so for example, if
you want to play games

in the startup world,
you either have a crap

ton of money and you
don't care, which is

definitely not the case
for me, or you accept

the fact that you're
going to be doing this.

And what I mean by that
is that there will be

times when, for example,
Um, on a given day,

um, a couple of years
ago, I might've said,

Hey, this is awesome.

We got Google
ventures involved.

We just closed $1.5
million worth of venture

capital and to the
untrained person or

inexperienced person,
they might go, wow,

you just made a million
and a half dollars.

Uh, you're done well, no,
I didn't make anything.

The company raised
a million and a half

dollars that million and
a half has to be used

in order to rapidly,
try to gain market

traction, develop the
product, pay a bunch

of salaries for people.

And guess what
happens when you're

the CEO of a company?

How much of a
salary do you draw?

The answer is not that
much because yeah, sure.

You can draw a little
bit, but not only is

it a, is it something
that's, that's a little

bit tough to justify
because if you're trying

to make your company
succeed and you've got a

small amount of money to
do it with putting money

in your pocket, isn't
necessarily going to help

your company succeed.

Of course you need to
be able to survive,

but in addition to you.

To you as a, as an
ethical individual,

finding it difficult
to do that.

It's also frowned
upon to do that.

If you, if you line
your own pockets and

the company tanks
investors are going to

look down on you and
go, buddy, that's not

really how this supposed
to be done, you're you,

or be less likely to
pull investment again.

So what I'm trying to
say is if you, if you

want to play in this
space, you've got to be

prepared for the fact
that, um, you know, you,

your, your personal net
worth is kind of a yo-yo.

So on paper, you might
be worth a lot of money

because the stock you
have is very valuable,

but you can't sell that
stock until there's an

acquisition event or,
or an IPO or somebody

else wants to become
involved in some way.

So the first and
foremost, the most

important thing from
a stress perspective

is to, to, to be able
to uncouple, in my

opinion, your stress
from your financial net.

Now that is a very easy
thing to say, but a

much harder thing to do.

And it's certainly a
lot harder to do if

you have dependence.

So for example, if you
have a wife and two kids

and you've got to put
a roof over everybody's

heads and you've got to
pay for all their food

and you're concerned
about what's going to

happen, and what if you
get injured, who's going

to pay for medical,
et cetera, et cetera.

These are all real
stressors that people

deal with in various
different ways.

So there's a reason why
they say that start-up

is a young man's
game, a tech startups,

at least that young
doesn't necessarily

mean young in age.

It means, I mean, I
was born in 74, so.

What does that?

47 48.

I don't even
know anymore.

I stopped counting at 40.

I just figured 40
I'm older than 40.

So, so the, uh, the,
what they mean is not

necessarily young in age.

They mean young and
attitude because when

you're traditionally,
when you're in your

mid twenties, you're,
you're more carefree.

You don't, you know,
you go skiing and you

don't go, oh shit.

If I turn left here
too aggressively, I

could hit the rock.

I could blow out my knee.

I could do this.

You just go,
you just do it.

And most of the time,
the just do it bit is

what gets you through it?

Because if you
sit and hesitate,

well, guess what?

You won't make that turn.

I'm talking about skiing
specifically, but it

applies to any, any
risk taking activity.

And it's a little bit
similar again, when

you're in your twenties,
you're trying to do

business decisions.

You might go, Hmm.

Uh, wait, I've got to
gamble my entire net

worth on this idea.

And if I screw up,
I'm screwed and you

might go fuck it.

Let's do it because I can
always get another job.

But you make
yourself older.

You add a wife and
kids and mortgage

payments is difficult
to make those kinds of

risk-taking decisions.

Same way.

As oftentimes, as you
get older, you start

questioning your own
physical abilities,

go back to the skiing
analogy and you go, Hmm.

I better be careful
because you know, my

back and my knees and
my hips, I might not

be able to do that.

So I've.

Lucky in this, I mean,
either lucky or stupid,

or going back to the
whole genius and madness

thing that we've been
talking about, where

I'm still willing
to take significant

amounts of risks.

Now, while I have
a very happy, long

relationship, which is
not, it's not a, it's

not officially labeled
under the standards of,

of a marriage because we
we'd never been married,

but for all intents and
purposes, you know, we've

lived together for better
part of 16, 17 years now.

The while there's
obviously a level

of, of, of respect.

And shall we say
responsibility that's

mutual in that equation?

There are no kids.

So perhaps that allows
me to think about things

in a slightly different
way, but frankly, I

don't think it's that.

I don't think it's as
simple as that one thing.

I think it's a
mental attitude.

I think it's just
deciding that.

I want to trying
to think about it.

Parts of the way in
which I live my life

is to stay, uh, to,
to, to hold on to the

ability to make tea
for the, to make these

creative free choices.

If I'm not able to
make them, I'm, I'm

not going to be happy.

And if I'm not happy,
I'm not creative.

So it's like a vicious
circle in a sense.

I force myself to take
the leap in order to be

happy about it, which
then helps me succeed

in making the leap.

I know it might, it might
sound like a little bit

like mumbo-jumbo, but to,
to loop that back to your

question about how do
you handle the stresses?

Uh, I choose to get.

Uh, I don't know if
that's, I know it's, it's

easier said than done.

I mean, if you go to
someone who is suffering

from extreme anxiety,
I don't know something

simple, like they're
really nervous about

public speaking and
you're, they're about

to go and talk to
present a big group of

people who are their
peers and they're

shitting themselves.

Because even though
they've rehearsed

absolutely everything,
they know their material,

they're still nervous
because you know what,

if it doesn't work, what
if the suffering from

imposter syndrome, I'm
not suggesting that these

are things that people
shouldn't feel that

it's complete natural.

Having the butterflies
being nervous when

you're being tested,
when there's a magnifying

glass in front of you
and you have to perform,

everybody's nervous.

Anybody who doesn't tell
you who tells you that

they're not nervous.

They don't care.

They're they're lying.

I don't care if you're
LeBron, James, uh,

or, or anybody else,
professional race, car

driver, professional
athlete, very

experienced politician.

Everybody's always
nervous when they're

being examined.

The question is, can
you harness that energy

and just go, okay, I'm
going to take this and

I'm going to work with
it and use it, use that,

use that anger and use
that adrenaline to focus.

You have to learn to
enjoy it because if,

if you are nervous
about it and you're

scared of it, it's just
going to make it worse.

This is a, this is a
slight aside to, to

a story which, which
I know you didn't ask

about, but I'll, but I'll
tell you anyway, cause

I think it pertains.

Yeah.

And it's, and it's to
do with, um, it's to

do with my dad, um, and
how my dad passed away.

So I was, um, my dad died
of a heart attack and I

was fortunate because I
was, we didn't know what

was going to happen.

It was sudden, but
although we knew that

he had a weak heart, so
it wasn't at the same

time as being sudden.

It also wasn't a
total surprise.

Um, he'd had mild
heart attacks before

and a mild stroke.

Um, he'd had, he was
a diabetic, he had two

stents installed, so it's
not like it came out of

nowhere and he got hit by
a truck, but nonetheless,

it was a surprise.

And fortunately for
me, I was able to

spend two weeks with
both my parents.

I was on holiday
at the time.

And this happened at
the very last day.

So we'd had a
really great time.

We'd spend a bunch of
time together and, and

the reason I bring up
the story is because.

Uh, I remember in
the weeks and months

afterwards, um, both my
friends and my mother

would frequently ask
me, uh, how do you, how

are you handling this?

How are you not
freaking out about this?

How are you not
freaking out about, uh,

about what happened?

And I said, what
do you mean?

And mum would say that
she finds herself, you

know, waking up in the
middle of the night and

suddenly remembering
the last few moments.

And then she tries
to hide it and stop

thinking about it.

But she can't and
it bubbles up again.

And then it takes over
and she gets completely

consumed by it.

And she gets really sad
and upset and she can't

handle normal life.

And I said, and I said,
that's interesting

mum, because the thing
I think you're doing

wrong, or at least
wrong is the wrong word.

I think, I think you're
doing different, which

is a key thing is you're
trying to not feel it.

And she said,
what do you mean?

And I said, the story
you just told me, you

said that you start
thinking about it and

then you try and force
yourself to stop.

And I said that she, she
goes, what do you mean?

I said, don't do that.

Just think about it
fully, every detail.

And, and she says,
I don't understand,

but that's horrible.

And I said,
no, no, no, no.

It's not think about it.

If, if I, cause what
happened to me is

of course I would
think about it.

I was there when
it happened.

I gave him CPR,
um, waiting for the

paramedics to arrive
and I was unable to

restart his heart.

Um, When I start
thinking about it, I,

I D I do the opposite
of trying to stop.

I think about every
detail, I think about

the noise and the rasping
of the breathing, the,

the rhythm of the, of
the chest compressions,

the cracking of the
ribs, as you'll hear

under the pressure of
the chest compression.

And the reason I
think about it is

because then it's
mine and I control it.

Whereas what mum was
doing is she was, she

was trying to hide it,
which meant that it

controlled her because
it would constantly

keep coming up.

And I, and I bring that
up as a story, because

I think it's, it's
similar to how you end

up handling stress, where
when stress can easily

be overwhelming and it
can easily control every

aspect of what you're
doing, whether it's,

whether it's lack of
confidence or anxiety,

or many other aspects of,
of nerves when you're,

when you're putting
yourself into emotional

roller coasters.

And if you try to push it
away, ultimately, unless

you're, unless you're
some kind of sociopath,

you, you will fail
because you can't hide

these things, they're
stronger than you.

So instead, I think you
have to just accept it.

And if anything, you
have to run towards

it, because if you
run towards it, then

you're in control of it.

And then ultimately
that's the way you

get through it.

Sorry, this went a
little bit serious,

perhaps more serious than

I, I quite like
that, honestly,

it's funny because.

That attitude
towards stress.

I've never actually
thought of that

correlation.

When my kids are afraid
of something, I sit

them down and I say,
are you afraid of it?

Or are you excited?

And they say, well,
what do you mean?

And I do my best to help
them reframe whatever

that nervous energy
is or whatever that

fear is into something
that's positive.

It's positive because
it's exciting.

You're doing something
you haven't done before.

Not I'm afraid because
I'm doing something I

haven't done before, but
you take the exact same

approach with stress.

You're essentially
reframing what, what

you're feeling into
something that's more

positive and something
that you have control

over.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And in many instances,
as I think we both

know the most important
thing is the first step.

Because once you, once
you get out onto that

stage, once you start
the pitch meeting,

once you start the
phone call, whatever it

might be at that point,
you can't back out.

I mean, obviously you
still can, but, but

the balls are rolling.

So, so the idea is
that so long as you

get the reframing, it's
a mental, the whole

thing is a mental game.

Stress always is.

And it's a game you
play with yourself

to see if you can
make that first step.

And once you do that,
then you're okay.

And obviously the more
times you do it, the

easier it ends up being.

And yes, of course,
a past history is

extremely helpful.

For example, it's much
easier that the 15th

pitch to investors is
a hell of a lot easier

than the first one.

And once you've, once
you've run out of

money once before and
bounced back to do

something else it's much.

If you feel less worried
about running out of

money again, because you
go, Hey, you know what,

uh, easy come easy, go.

I'll figure out the I'll
figure out a solution,

but this is not, this
is not a path for

everybody there are.

And I, and I should,
I should stress

forgiving the pun.

I should stress that.

Uh, I, in no way, look
down on people who.

Who decide that this
is not for them, that

they would rather
have the safe job,

the nine to five that
guarantees them a

certain amount of income.

And then they have
their weekends that

are completely carefree
to spend time with

their families.

In fact, while my opinion
towards that kind of

life is actually kind
of funny because it's

very conflicted because
on the one hand I looked

down on it, cause I
go, oh, how boring?

But on the other hand,
I'm also jealous of it

because I can't do that.

My work has never
been nine to five,

which guess what?

That means.

That means there's
no distance or no, no

separation between work
and non-work right.

Which means that if I'm
the last thing I think

about most times before
I go to bed is the

particular project that
I've been working on, the

problem that I'm trying
to solve and what I'll

be solving in the future.

And the same thing
I think about when

I'm on weekends or
when I'm on holidays,

I can't switch off.

Yeah.

So that's what I mean
by I'm jealous of the

ability of people who
have that attitude of,

Hey, it's just nine to
five and hard separation

between work and play.

I'm jealous of their
ability to switch off.

But at the same
time, I also kind of

looked down on it.

Cause I think, uh,
you're just taking

the easy road.

So, so it's a,
it's a funny, funny

approach to things.

I'm trying to, I'm
trying to be as, as

open as possible.

I hope I agree.

Okay, cool.

Yeah,

no, absolutely.

That's exactly
what I want.

I mean, when I, sometimes
I bemoan the fact that

the last thing I think
about is the first thing

I think about and that
there is no actual time

off from work, if you
are entrepreneurial

minded, because you're
always thinking about

the next thing and what
you could do with what

you currently have.

And I'll look at friends
who, um, you know, I

good friend of mine,
he's a firefighter.

And I look, and I
say, man, you know,

four on four off
that ain't too bad.

I could probably, I
could probably run

a business on the
side, on my four off.

And my wife says,
yeah, but you'd hate

those four on you.

Wouldn't fit in that
mold on that four on when

you're in there, because
you'd be constantly

thinking about new
things or trying to

do things differently.

And that's not what,
that's not what the

fire fighter group
mentality is like, you

wouldn't fit in there.

So for sure, you
mentioned imposter

syndrome and that's
something that a lot of

people who are trying
to break new ground or

do something that's sort
of revolutionary either

in general or within
their realm will feel.

Is that something that
you have to deal with?

Often as it happens, I've
never had to deal with

imposter syndrome and I
find it hard to, uh, to.

To kind of understand
exactly what people are

going through, who I
have worked with in the

past, who I feel are
quite talented, who tell

me they suffer from it.

And I think that's, that
comes down to some of the

reframing of stress that
you had talked about.

I think I just
instinctively ended up

if, if I do feel it, I
reframe it so quickly

that I don't even
notice meaning there

are certainly, there are
certainly environments

that I've been in.

For example, when I
made the documentary

film, it's the first
documentary I've ever

made and I'm sitting
there in a room, uh,

doing a talk or winning
an award, surrounded

by people who are
on their eighth or

ninth documentary.

And it's, uh, by,
by all accounts, I

should be going like,
who the hell am I?

I don't really deserve
to be here except I'm

comfortable with the
product that I've made

or, and, or invention
and or whatever it is.

I'm just using one story
to turn on for another.

So from that perspective,
I, as I said, I either

don't feel it or if I
do feel it, I reframe

it so quickly that
it doesn't really, it

doesn't really affect me.

I mean, there's a,
there's a nasty part

to this that hopefully
doesn't happen, but I've

seen it happen to some
people and that's it.

You need to be very
self-aware for this

stuff, not to come off
as sociopathic ego,

because if you're, if
you're on the wrong

side of that, in other
words, if you don't, if

you take the view that
I'm the best thing in

the world, and I don't
listen to criticism, so

screw you you're either
with me or against

me, that's a problem.

And the reason that's a
problem is number one,

because you'll never
improve because you have

to be able to take input
from other people very

quickly and pivot as it
were building before.

I know you meant it
a slightly different

way, but I think, I
think by definition,

we're constantly
pivoting as people.

And certainly from a
product perspective,

you constantly have
to keep accepting

tweaks from others.

But there are definitely
people out there who,

who can mask, uh,
deep insecurities with

copious quantities of
arrogance and bluster,

and sometimes the idea
of, oh, it's okay.

I'll just reframe
all my fear and

nerves and stress and
anxiety as confidence.

It's not really,
that's not a reframe.

That's a false
confidence.

Yeah.

What you're really
doing is you're just

hiding it and you're
masking it and the

problem and that that'll
trick some people.

But as the saying goes,
you know, you can trick

some of the people.

Some of the time,
but you contract

all, how does it go?

Wait, you can trick all
of them all the time.

Some of them all the time
or all of them, some of

the time you can't track
all of them all the time.

So eventually that
facade breaks down.

So yeah, it's an, it's a,
there's a dance in here

and it's definitely, as I
said, the more self-aware

you are the better,
because if you, in my

case, I, whatever it
is that I do, whatever,

whatever mental games
I play with myself to

be able to handle this
stuff, as long as I can

go to sleep at night
comfortable, that I'm

being honest to myself
and the people around

me, I'm fine with it.

So, so yeah, I think
from the imposter

syndrome side, certainly
something, as I said,

that I've seen and
the people I know

suffer from and people
choose to mask it in

various different ways.

But yeah, not something
that I feel I've

always, I'm sorry,
just to just the thing.

I think it's also very
important to be honest.

And it's important to
be honest with yourself

as well as with others.

And I mean that not just
in a, in a personal,

emotional context,
I also mean it in a

professional context.

So for instance, 'cause
you never know when the

person who's sitting
across from you, whether

they're a potential
collaborator or an

employee or a potential
investor, you never know

whether they're actually
a subject matter expert

in what you're doing.

And if you choose to
lie, uh, yeah, sure.

You can get lucky and
you can spin something.

And if someone calls you
on it, you, you might

be quick enough or, or
agile enough with your

wordplay to be able to
work around the problem.

But you do that
shit to me.

I'll remember.

So when I notice, when
people make mistakes, I

noticed when they define
things incorrectly,

I notice when they
gloss over something,

when I've asked them
a difficult question.

And I assume always when
I'm that I'm talking

to people who notice
things the same way

that I do, which is
why, if I don't know

something, I'll be the
first one to admit it.

'cause, I don't want
to give you as a

quote-unquote adversary,
whether it's an adversary

in a friendly way or in
an, or in an aggressive

way, I don't want to
give you the power of

thinking that you saw
me make a mistake.

And now, you know, that
I made a mistake and

I'm trying to hide it.

If I catch myself making
a mistake, I'll call

it out right away.

And the reason I'll do
that is because, as I

said, that that honesty
is I think an important

part of my continuous
improvement process,

but it also, as it
happens, deep powers,

the other person, cause
I don't want to give

him a leg to stand on
in terms of going ha ha.

I caught that guy and now
I know that he's lying.

So anyway, I love it.

I love it.

So I remember when he
started getting into VR

and I'm watching this,
I'm like, I don't know,

is VR going to be the
wave of the future?

Is, is this really going
to be such a big thing?

And then you're talking
about storytelling

through virtual reality
and saying like, you

know, it's one thing
to have this whole

virtual environment
around us that we can

all kind of look at,
but how do you direct

somebody's attention
through storytelling?

I'm like, okay, I can,
I'm starting to see

kind of what you're
trying to do here.

And then next thing
you know, you've got

red six, which is.

Piggybacking on
the virtual reality

background that you
have in the filmmaking

background and the
left and right.

Brain kind of thing.

And you've got something
and you're using it to

train fighter pilots.

Can you, can you
talk about this

a little bit?

Yeah, for sure.

I can't go into too
much detail on the core

of the technology, but
obviously a fair amount

of it has been, has been
written about so we can

certainly address it.

So first things first
I'd been interested in,

in, as you mentioned
in virtual reality

and by association
augmented reality for

a number of years.

And the biggest reason I
was interested initially,

even though the headsets
were cumbersome, a bit

of a bane to wear, and
it was complicated to

get the tech to work
correctly, you needed to

have a powerful computer.

You couldn't really do
it on your mobile phone.

And so on.

Uh, the reason I was
particularly interested

was because of the
intensity of emotion

and, uh, let me describe
what I mean by that.

Uh, Uh, it'll sound
like a bit, a very base

comparison, but I think
it's apt a long time ago.

One of the first
VR experiences I

tried, I mean, sure.

You know, there's the old
story of, you know, you,

you, you feel vertigo
cause you look down and

you're on the edge of
a, of a building, but

you're not actually on
the edge of a building

and that's fine.

Um, but I'm talking about
something else, which

is that somebody asked
me to try some sort of

a pornography experience
in VR and it was very

simple, meaning nothing
wasn't interactive in

any way whatsoever.

It was just, just some
just, just nudity.

But I remember.

As, as I was looking
at the video that was

happening, I remember
noticing my hands

came up and I thought,
wow, that's really

bizarre because I know
I'm watching a video.

I know exactly how
the technology works.

That's tricking my brain
into thinking that this

person is actually right
in front of me yet.

My hands instinctively
start to come up anyway.

I can leave it up to the
viewer to think about

why that's a conversation
for another time.

Anyway.

So I stopped the thing
right away and I take

the headset off and
I go, okay, this is

really bizarre because
if within, we're talking

about within two seconds,
this happened, if within

two seconds, I can
short circuit my brain

with this technology to
think that I'm actually

somewhere that I'm
not to the point that

my hands will move.

There's something here,
because that means that

if I'm telling you a
story and I want you

to feel a certain way,
whether it's because of,

I dunno, refugees in a
refugee camp or, or some

sort of a love story or
some sort of an action

movie, it doesn't matter.

The point is.

Something about the
idea of being able to

immerse you into an
environment, to the

point that you feel like
you're actually there,

which means you will, you
will, because filmmaking

and storytelling is all
about manipulating the

emotions of the viewer.

Making you feel as though
you are the hero or

you are in danger, you
are saving the world.

Whatever the
case might be.

It's sometimes not as
simple as sometimes it

could be just a jump
scare with zombies

jumping out of the ground
and need to scare you.

But nonetheless,
we're trying to elicit

emotional responses.

So I was fascinated
by the idea of how

emotional responses
could be manipulated in

using this technology.

So I've spent a lot
of time trying to

figure out what does
this mean for editing?

What does this mean
for filmmaking?

What does this mean
for interactivity?

Because as, as obviously,
people, either who are

listening to podcasts
or, or watching movies

nowadays know you have,
what's referred to you

have no agency, you can't
control the narrative.

In other words, somebody
listening to this

podcast can change
the next question.

They can certainly
pause it, rewind it

fast forward it, but
they can't change the

answer that I'm about
to give or the questions

you're going to ask.

Now, there are certain
environments that

you can do this in.

And one common
one is video games

in a video game.

If you're playing, I
don't know, call of duty

or you're playing, um,
playing pub G uh, you

can, or Fortnite, you
can move your character

whichever way you.

And so can anybody
else who's playing

the game with you at
the same time, but

guess what suffers
story, because sure.

You can make
an environment.

I can have you for the
sake of argument, be

playing, I don't know,
let's pick star wars,

so I can, you can be
playing on the death

star and you're running
around doing whatever you

want, but how can you at
the same time have the

narration happen that
happens in the star wars

movies that we all grew
up loving most of us,

uh, while I'm letting
you do whatever you

want, because if you
want to run around and

blow stuff up, well,
guess what, you're

going to miss the story.

So I was fascinated
by, by the kind of

conflicting forces
of the immersion and

the, the emotional
immersion and what that

does to my brain, uh,
by short-circuiting

certain aspects of it.

And then understanding
the technology involved

and the interactivity
that was possible.

And the transition to
read six happened, uh,

roughly around having
spent a number of

years in this space,
looking for a challenge

to build, to solve an
interesting problem.

And the reason
why it happened.

Missed a lot of the
pro the technology was

so young that a lot of
the stuff that we were

doing was as I like to
call it a solution in

search of a problem.

In other words, we'd
be like, Hey, look,

we can do a headset.

We can track your hands.

So look, cause you
can track your hands.

And then the competition
would kind of tail

away there because
if you go, well, why

would you do that?

You go, well, I
don't know, but

look, isn't it cool.

You can track your homes.

So what would happen
is, uh, we, it wasn't

clear because it was
so many things that

we're building and
it wasn't just me.

It was a number of people
in the industry who were

building solutions in
search of a problem.

I just thought, wouldn't
it be cool if we found

a real problem so we
can apply all this

knowledge to, and all
this technology to

solve something real.

So I got together
with, with three

other guys, um, Glenn
Snyder, Adam Amarillo,

and Dan Robinson,
uh, Glenn and Adam

were very experienced
in the VR world.

They've done a lot
of different VR

solutions and a lot of
digital software and

hardware development.

While Adam, myself
and Glenn were all

technologists and spent
a number of years in

the VR and AR space on
both software, hardware,

and content then was
not a technologist,

but as a fighter pilot,
he had some unique

understanding of the
problem set, specifically

the danger and the
complexity of training

with other physical
aircraft as often.

People have seen at the
very least in Hollywood

versus of this stuff.

For example, in Topcon,
when in those days they

had the F fourteens as
the good guys, and then I

believe F fours and fives
playing the part of mics.

And when they're trying
to fly against each

other, yeah, it looks
cool filmmaking wise, but

it's also quite dangerous
even though the training

quality is quite high.

So the idea was, was
it possible to do this

kind of training using
augmented reality?

So for the sake of
argument, if, if it was

going to be possible,
you would need to take

off in an aircraft as a
fighter pilot, and then

look out the window and
see an enemy aircraft

that wasn't there,
that you could maneuver

against that would be
driven by AI in order to

be a pretend bad guy for
you to train against,

but it would have to
be realistic because

this wasn't a game.

If this wasn't going
to be realistic, if it

wasn't going to give
you so-called positive

training value, then it
would at best create a

false sense of security.

And at worst, it would
be worse than that.

It would give you
negative training value.

So the only way this
was going to work

is if it would be
sufficiently realistic,

it's a fairly high.

So the physics
are correct.

And the so-called,
uh, range, aspect and

angle are correct,
so that the pilot can

judge the position of
the enemy aircraft and

maneuver accordingly.

And we, we didn't know
this was possible.

Absolutely.

No, it never been
tried before.

I mean, certainly head
up displays of various

different kinds had
existed in certainly

in the military.

And in some cases, in
some high-end cars,

they have the ability
to project your Speedo

or some additional
information onto your

dash in front of you.

But no one had ever
tried wide field of

view, high resolution,
full color, low latency

visuals, essentially
we're building a

video game in the sky.

And, um, so I was one of
the co-founders of the

business as well as, uh,
the CTO for the, I can't

remember exactly when
I transitioned to being

the chief strategy and
science officer, but I

was CTO for a good two
years and a bit of the

business and the, uh,
the, the key task here

was first and foremost,
establish whether this

is possible and to prove
this out in an aircraft.

But when, when I started
to broaden the stack was

when it became really
interesting because

it wasn't just about
solving a key problem

for the military.

That was certainly the
reason why the company

got a lot of attention
and got an initial and

then a follow up contract
with the us air force.

But it was also because
you see the broader.

Training ecosystem
is obviously not

just one aircraft.

There's an aircraft
there's tanks, there's

infantry, there's
combined joint force

multi-domain operations.

And the idea is that
could you build a

training ecosystem so
that any one of these

people, whatever vehicle
they're in or whether

they're a dismounted
or mounted infantry,

uh, could they see an
enemy threat in the same

place at the same time,
even though the enemy

threat wasn't there.

So the whole now
obviously fancy things

can be accomplished
with screens.

So lots of you sensor
fuse, a bunch of data.

You look at your
screen, you can see

on your radar, certain
things are happening,

but that's not what
we were interested in.

What we were interested
in is what happens at

close range is what
happens when you have to

look up and look around
and engage with an enemy

that isn't actually
physically there because

the traditional training
in traditional synthetic

training, that's where
things break down.

That's where the
simulation ends

and you just go.

Yeah.

Okay.

If, and when that
happens in reality,

you'll figure it out.

You know, the problem
is if the only time that

you're seeing a, for
the sake of argument,

Chinese, J 20 is when
you actually see a

Chinese J 20, uh, that's
a problem because if

up until then, the
only time you've flown

against the J 20 is in
an actual simulation of

a simulator, not in your
actual physical aircraft.

And again, I know it
started with fighter

pilots, but it doesn't
matter whether you

replace aircraft with
helicopter or with

Breguet or with armored
personnel carrier.

It's the same problem.

The problem is how do
you train against actual

physical assets if
they're not available

for you to train against
gone are the days of

the early Warsaw pact
when the U S enjoyed

such military dominance.

So they could use their
older vehicles as a

SIM physical simulator
with the same kind

of capability as a
modern Warsaw pact

or Chinese vehicle
nowadays, the Chinese

and the Russian forces
are so significantly

advanced that it's
impossible to do that.

You have to commit.

If you want to do that,
if you want to train the

physical asset against
the physical asset,

you have to commit your
most expensive assets

into playing dummy enemy
and that's expensive.

And also not a good idea.

Uh, in general, there
was a, there was a

lot of money riding
on being able to solve

this problem correctly.

So we spent a lot of
time proving out that

this was possible.

We had an experimental
aircraft that we,

that we did this in,
but the key thing, as

I was mentioning was
the transition from

purely making this a
fighter pilot focused

solution into being a
multi-domain solution.

I came up with, um, with
a concept that I named

carbon carbon stands
for combined augmented

reality battlespace
operational network.

And the idea is that
carbon is a, is a

multi-domain environment
where multiple entities

see the same augmented
reality assets at

the same time and
in the same place.

And the idea is of
course, for this to

grow into becoming a,
a, a, shall we say,

platform agnostic.

So it works with every
single interoperates

with every single
system that's out

there, but allows an
unprecedented level

of fidelity and, uh,
accuracy in the training.

And I can't unfortunately
go into details of

exactly what the
technology does and how

it works, but suffice to
say that, uh, there are

a number of high profile
entities that have either

have direct relationships
with the company or

contracts with it.

Or are in some cases,
actual investors.

If you did a little bit
of Googling, you could

find out some of this
information because some

of it has been publicly
released, but it's

certainly been exciting
working at the highest

end of, as I say, not
solutions in search of a

problem, but applying my
many years of technical

acumen into being able to
articulate the vision and

fine tune it, to be able
to use the technology,

to solve a real problem,
but make no mistake

the, to touch on the
storytelling aspects.

Uh, the transition
from, shall we say the

abstraction going back to
UX again, of a keyboard

and a mouse and a screen.

Into something that
you touch, like a

touch screen phone
into the, uh, an iWatch

or a smart watch that
you use to interact

with information.

And then you go in,
there's a, if you think

about it information
or sorry, the devices

by which we consume
information of a

networked variety
are shrinking at the

same time as they're
shrinking, they're

becoming more intimate.

So the mechanism by which
we interact with them

becomes more intuitive.

And the augmented
reality headsets

are just the natural
evolution of that.

And for me, this
is fascinating

because this is.

This is, I would argue
possibly the largest

inflection point in
the way in which humans

interact with each other
and humans interact

with information since
the very first iPhone.

So augmented reality
is a massive leap and

it is still not fully
understood exactly what

this means in the same
way that, you know, when

the iPhone one first
came out or people had

an idea that Google maps
would be a thing, but

nobody knew Instagram
would be a thing.

Nobody knew Snapchat
would be a thing.

Nobody knew Pokemon
go or, or NFTs or

crypto would be a
thing that people would

do on mobile phones.

They just kind of
thought let's build it

and see what happens.

So the augmented
reality world is, is

a little bit similar.

It's, it's massive.

And the idea, there
are many fantastical

dystopian views of what
this could look like.

For example, if you're,
if people want to really

Google for things, you
can look for something

called a reality.

It's, uh, a guy who
made, uh, a mock-up

video of what augmented
reality run a muck

would look like.

Every single
thing is an ad.

So you're walking down
the road and instead

of seeing a wall of
a house that would

be a personal ad.

That's done precisely
for you because companies

like Facebook or
whatever, the future

versions of Facebook
would look like,

capture a significant
amount of data.

They know who you
are, they know your

demographic, they know
what you last bought.

They know what
webpages you browsed.

And because of that,
they conserve your

personalized ads and you
can't stop it because

you're just walking
around and you've got

your multimillion dollar
mentored reality had

said, which, by the way,
you didn't pay for it.

It's entirely advertising
subsidized, or because

of that, you're, you are
forced to have a constant

barrage of advertising
invading every

aspect of your life.

So, as I said, there
are tons of dystopian

versions of what
AR could look like.

And I'm very aware
that I, and many other

people who are in
the key parts of this

industry are on the
cutting edge of defining

what this looks like.

But the way I see it,
I have two choices.

I ignore it in which
case it's going to

happen anyway, uh, or
I take an active role

in shaping what this
stuff looks like, and

hopefully I can make it
less dystopian and more

practical and efficient,
just like I've done

with many other things.

So the biggest reason
for me, the fascination

with the Red6 is twofold.

One, is this an
incredibly challenging

problem to try and solve?

Because it's very
fast moving aircraft,

complicated physics
split-second,

decision-making required
extremely low latencies

and high speeds and
high fidelity required.

But also it's for me
scratching the surface

of what the what's
now being referred

to as the metaverse
could look like, what

does it look like when
you're fusing real and

digital information in
various different ways?

And I feel that it's,
it's an inevitable

future, as I said.

And it's extremely
interesting for me to, to

understand which parts of
it are critical problems

to solve that I feel
like could that I'm the

right person to shape.

Holy crow.

Honestly, if we had a few
more hours to talk, and I

know we don't, you just,
there's so many points

in what you just brought
out that I would love to

delve into, into further.

I mean, we can, you know,
we can always do another

one at some 0.1 side.

Once I pick up another
project, there's all

kinds of stuff that
we can talk about.

But yeah, look, I mean
the, there, there's no

question that there are,
if you start digging,

uh, you can very quickly
find out that somewhere

between AI and AR and
crypto and robotics is

this weird future that,
that some people have

looked at in episodes of
black mirror and gone,

whoa, hang on a second.

This is horrible.

Robot dogs are going
to kill us all.

What's going
to happen next.

Uh, and then there's
other fascinating

things that might be
positive, but there's,

there's certainly a
lot of negativity out

there because yes, of
course it's possible.

You take a look at
AI and you just fast

forward the clock and
you get some version

of the terminator.

So that's going
to kill us all.

And there are some
people out there who are

building things so that
if you say to them, hey,

you're building Skynet.

They might go.

Yeah.

In fact, one of
our projects is

called Skynet.

So they don't quite
realize the joke that

you're making, but
there is, there's

an inevitability to
technological progress.

That's kind of what I
was alluding to, um,

digging our heads in the
sand, unless we're all

gonna destroy everything.

And send us back into
the stone ages with

some giant sequence of
electromagnetic pulses,

which is theoretically
possible, but highly

unlikely technological
progress is inevitable.

The question is, what
do we do with it?

Uh, do we, do we do
something that makes

things better or do
we, do we do something

that just makes things
more profitable?

And there's an
interesting line

there because as, as,
uh, as, as woke as

some venture capital
investors might claim,

they are ultimately
their investors,

they're seeking a
return on investments.

So they're trying
to make money.

It's up to us as the
inventors to, to use

that money, to create
things that are obviously

provide a healthy
return on investment.

Otherwise you're not
going to get the money

again, but also steer
the, the objects in

such a way that they are
both useful and usable.

And all of this ties
back to, to some of

the UX stuff we talked
about with pepper

shakers, and these
handles, it's all about

trying to understand
what's the problem

we're trying to solve.

Why are we trying
to solve it?

How do we make it
something that's

interesting and valuable
that people want?

And from the perspective
of people like

myself, people who
are the creators,

how do we continue to
challenge ourselves?

To, to make things
I guess, interesting

and valuable.

I mean, as far as I'm
concerned, I'm going

to do this thing that
I'm going to continue

to do these kinds
of things forever.

I don't see any
reason to stop so

long as I continue
to remain interested.

And of course, as long
as I continue to find

the kind of people that
I want to work with

to, to, to go along
for the journey, as I

mentioned in connection
with the documentary,

it's all well and good
me having interesting

ideas, but first and
foremost requirement,

before you even.

Try to convince an
investor to part with

their dollars is you've
got to find people

who are going to join
you for the journey,

which means your first
problem is to convince

someone else that
your idea is something

that they can risk X
amount of months or

years of their life on.

Because if you can't
do that, then maybe you

should reconsider maybe
the idea that if you,

if you're not able to
articulate the idea, to

describe it, to have the
requisite passion, to use

the kind of vocabulary
that people understand,

there's a lot of names
of very important the way

in which you talk about
things, the way in which

things are structured.

That's, that's what
I spend a lot of time

doing is defining
and articulating

product lines.

So there's a, there's
a thing called Elif.

I don't know if you've
heard the term elephant,

L E L I F stands for
explain like I'm five,

uh, because, because
here's the thing, there

are a lot of, there's
a lot of smart people

around and in some
cases, those smart

people, whether they're
suffering from, as you

talked about before, uh,
imposter syndrome or not,

there's a lot of people
who, when you ask them

to explain a complicated
concept, they'll can

quick look quickly
dastardly with a bunch of

scientific terminology.

But if you ask them
to explain like I'm

five, hence the term,
if they can't do it.

It probably means they
don't understand it.

Not really, if they
can't break it down

into fundamentals,
I'm not suggesting

that you need to be
able to, I don't know,

explain microbiology,
using simple block

diagrams and people are
supposed to understand

every aspect of it.

That's not, it,
it's not, it's not

reductive in that way.

I'm saying that if
you are not able to

articulate your vision in
a simplified way so that

it can be compelling to
both technologists and

business people who you
might need along for the

ride, then you should
reconsider whether you

truly understand what
you're talking about.

So I spent a lot of the
time, I often advise

startups and investment.

A lot of times the
startups that I'm

involved in doing exactly
that is trying to take

nuggets of technological
information and structure

them in such a way that
they're more clearly

understandable because
I think that's important

because ultimately.

As, as leaders
of companies, we

often do end up
being storytellers.

Yes.

In the early days
you were extremely

hands-on when you're,
when you're needing to

actually mold the clay
and figure out how to

make it into something.

But afterwards, as the
team starts to grow, uh,

it ends up oftentimes
being just explanation,

story, passion,
investing, pitching it's,

uh, your role changes
your role as a leader,

definitely changes.

And I, I enjoy,
always have done.

I definitely enjoyed the
zero to 60 miles an hour,

a lot more than 60 to
70, and certainly a lot

more than 73 to 74 miles
an hour at some point.

Yes.

If the company gets
big enough, a small

change in efficiency
ends up meaning

millions of dollars.

And that's extremely
valuable, but I like

to live in the crazy
land, those zero to

60, they, Hey, here's
a bunch of Lego bricks.

Can you make something
in the next six months?

How do you do that?

I don't know,
but let's wait.

Oh, that doesn't work.

Try this.

Okay.

Good.

It worked.

So that's the
bit that I enjoy.

That's fantastic.

And hopefully I'll
continue to have, I know

there's a, there's a
little bit of childlike.

Um, shall we say,
uh, And ambition is

the wrong word, a
childlike stubbornness

in this adherence to
wanting to solve the

problem from zero.

But I think, I think for
me, it's really necessary

because it keeps me
focused and motivated.

Um, the more things
become slow and

incremental progress.

I'm not suggesting
that I don't see

the value in that.

I absolutely do.

It's just not where
I Excel, which means

that for me, is a sign
that there needs to be

someone else brought in.

And some people
really love that.

Some people love
pushing a thing that's

90% efficient to
being 92% efficient.

They live for those kinds
of breakthroughs I live

for, as I mentioned for
the, for the target that

no one else can see.

That's where I,
that's my sweet spot.

I am so glad that you
agreed to come on this

Silvercore Podcast.

Is there anything
else that we should

chat about before we
wrap things up here?

Uh, I'm sure there are
a lot of things, but

I don't know them all
because I like, I mean,

I don't, I know we
haven't talked about this

that much, but I rarely
tend to prepare for

these kinds of things.

And I find, I find it
more natural that way.

So I don't really know
where the conversation's

going to go.

I've done a number of
different keynotes, uh,

for conferences where
people asked me to talk

about, I don't know,
invention or what I see.

This is the future
of media as a recent

one that I did.

And it's interesting
cause I know

some people who.

Viewed as, uh, as, as, as
good speakers and sure.

On the surface of it,
you know, you go, okay,

this sounds like the
sounds kind of compelling

and passionate.

But then you realize
that the entire thing

is pre-rehearsed down to
every single inflection.

And again, it
works right.

If the audience has
happy, it works,

but I can't do that.

And the reason I can't
do that is because I get

bored of my own voice.

If I have to say the
same thing over and over

again, I can't stand it.

So I tend to just, I
have bullet points.

I have a vague outline
of what I want to say,

but I guess I know if
there's one thing that

I wanted people to
walk away from this.

I did a, when we took a
quick break, I did a bit

of thinking, thinking
if I'm watching this or

listening to this the
first time, and I think,

I don't want to say
anything, trite like, oh,

just follow your dreams.

Everything will
always be fine.

No, that's nonsense
because it depends

on the person.

It depends on what
you really want.

What I would like to
say though, is that like

with most things in life,
the most important thing

is the first step as
you and I talked about

before, when we were
talking about stress and

in particular, we were
talking about the idea

of coming into this pitch
meeting or an interview

or a presentation
or something that

you're nervous about.

Uh, opening the door.

Isn't usually the problem
because in many cases,

the doors already open.

You just have to take the
first step, but taking

the first, the problem
isn't the presentation.

The presentation will
happen, whether you like

it or not, if you're able
to step through the door.

So it's the taking the
first step bit that I

think is the, is the
thing that I would like

to encourage people
to try to reframe as

you put it from is
something that's that's.

If you can, if you
can constantly keep

yourself excited about
exploring and learning

something new, then it
really doesn't matter.

In some cases what
happens afterwards,

because as the
saying goes, if it

doesn't kill you, it
makes you stronger.

So obviously yes, don't
do stuff like this with

knives or with poisons.

And certainly if
someone tells you that

horse dewormers, a
good idea, maybe think

twice about that.

But, um, at the risk
of going into rabbit

hole that we won't get
out of four, then, uh,

we'll we'll perhaps
leave it at that.

So be sensible.

But if you want to
stay youthful and

energetic, don't be
afraid to take risks.

That's all.

Nick you've led an
extraordinary life.

And I know for a fact
the best is yet to come.

Thank you for, I
really appreciate

being invited on this.

And I apologize if
I went slightly deep

into some rabbit holes.

If I did, it was
only because I

enjoyed talking.

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