Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
CW: Death, suicide, miscarriage
Grieving over the holidays can feel all-consuming and complex. Today, Jess and Scott are joined by returning guest Libby for a raw and honest conversation about navigating grief during the holiday season. They discuss various forms of grief, from the loss of loved ones to mourning relationships with living family members who are estranged or there is a complex relationship.
Libby shares her experience losing her father three years ago around Christmas, while Scott opens up about childhood trauma and his grandfather's death. Listeners will gain valuable insights on coping strategies like allowing yourself to feel emotions fully, maintaining connections with trusted friends, and finding meaningful ways to honour memories.
The episode also explores how to support grieving loved ones with practical advice on what to say (and what not to say) to someone who is hurting.
If you want to hear more from Libby, check out the first episode she recorded with Jess and Scott here [https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-set-boundaries-with-your-parents-with-libby-ward/id1740816838?i=1000662960865].
You can also follow Libby at @diaryofanhonestmom [https://www.instagram.com/diaryofanhonestmom] on Instagram or visit her website [https://diaryofanhonestmom.com/].
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
We'd love to hear from you! Have questions you want us to answer on Robot Unicorn? Send us an email: podcast@robotunicorn.net.
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
CW: Death, suicide, miscarriage
Grieving over the holidays can feel all-consuming and complex. Today, Jess and Scott are joined by returning guest Libby for a raw and honest conversation about navigating grief during the holiday season. They discuss various forms of grief, from the loss of loved ones to mourning relationships with living family members who are estranged or there is a complex relationship.
Libby shares her experience losing her father three years ago around Christmas, while Scott opens up about childhood trauma and his grandfather's death. Listeners will gain valuable insights on coping strategies like allowing yourself to feel emotions fully, maintaining connections with trusted friends, and finding meaningful ways to honour memories.
The episode also explores how to support grieving loved ones with practical advice on what to say (and what not to say) to someone who is hurting.
If you want to hear more from Libby, check out the first episode she recorded with Jess and Scott here.
You can also follow Libby at @diaryofanhonestmom on Instagram or visit her website.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
We’d love to hear from you! Have questions you want us to answer on Robot Unicorn? Send us an email: podcast@robotunicorn.net.
Credits:
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Hey friends!
In today's episode we are going to be talking about grieving over the holidays and some of the topics that we're covering might be a bit triggering.
Inside this episode, we'll be talking about topics like suicide, losing a parent, miscarriage, and other losses.
As you listen to the episode, just a reminder to take care of yourself.
And if these topics are just too triggering right now, feel free to just skip this one.
All right, we'll talk to you in a second in the episode.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We're so glad that you are here.
Libby
Welcome to our robot unicorn.
I'm so excited that you're here today.
Thank you.
Libby is a dear personal friend of mine.
And so let me just tell you a little bit about Libby.
She is the founder of
Diary of an honest mom.
You might recognize her from TikTok or from Instagram where she talks about all things motherhood related and talks about them honestly.
Libby is an incredible speaker.
She is so thoughtful and shares a lot about her experience today.
And I can't wait to share this conversation with you.
So let's dive into it.
You're on for a second episode.
Hooray!
Hooray!
We're very excited to have you guys.
Yeah.
For those who haven't listened to our other episode, Libby was on one of our earlier episodes and we talked about setting boundaries with family.
And I've been sharing that one quite a bit over the holiday season, that episode.
Is that what we talked about?
Okay.
We talked about a lot of things.
We did the overarching theme was boundaries, but we went deep and wide on various
Things.
On various topics.
Like most episodes I don't really remember what what was discussed.
That sounds like right now I'm blacked out and then when I come back
Come to after death.
But he's revived after the episode.
Then it's more exciting when you listen back.
Well it's it's really funny being out and about with Scott because people be like, Oh Scott, I really liked what you said on this and this episode and he'll be like, Yeah, I'll look at Jess and be like
That's how I operate generally as well.
Like I love this video that you made.
It changed my life.
And I'm like, I don't remember that video, but I'm so happy that it helped you.
See, I'm the exact opposite.
Like our team will make fun of me because I'll be like
In 2017 in May, I did this one post on this topic.
Can you find that for me?
And sure enough, like May 2017, I'll have done a post on like puberty.
People ask me to find my post for them sometimes, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm not your girl
Like there's no chance we're gonna find it.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
But good luck.
But good luck.
You guys are so similar in so many ways.
I think that's why we get along.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So Libby and I are still friends months later.
Yay!
Still.
For now, right?
And I wanted to bring you back on today to talk about grief over the holidays because we all know, and I think everyone listening, this episode's gonna air three days before Christmas or two days before Christmas
So it's just a big time of year for grief and for feeling sad.
And I feel like grief as a therapist is something that I have like we're always busy as therapists in December
Right.
Because we're prepping for the grief that comes at the holiday season.
And I feel like grief looks so many different ways.
Like it can be Do therapists see more clients during
Like the holidays or is it I think let's say post holidays, so in January you see all of it.
December I would say as therapists, like at least at our practice.
is probably our busiest season.
Yeah.
December.
I feel like I should know that, but I did not.
All of the therapists, like for people who don't know, I have a therapy practice.
We have six therapists who work for us.
We're all super busy this time of year supporting people.
was grief.
And grief looks like a lot of different things.
And we'll talk about that during the episode.
But I kind of wanted to start by just talking about how grief is multifaceted, right?
So
We might have grief over the loss of a person in our life, like the death of a person, but you might also have grief over how a relationship doesn't look like how you thought it would, or your life doesn't look like how you thought it would.
And I think
the holiday season when we see all of family and friends, it just brings up a lot of feelings.
It's a reminder of all those things.
I feel like it's the most wonderful time of the year.
It should be a satire.
Song because it's not the worst time of the year, but it is the time of the year where you feel the most
things about all the things.
Well for me anyway.
And it's like there's all this pressure to feel good and to enjoy it and holiday magic and all this stuff.
But
More than any other time of the year, I feel sad around the holidays and I feel grief around the holidays and I
feel reminiscent about my life and what is and what isn't and who is and who isn't and all of those things and even though
There's so much good around the holidays, it almost can make the grief worse because you're already feeling those hard things come up and then the pressure to then feel good at the same time then can make you feel bad about feeling bad
Right.
Yeah, you feel guilty about feeling sad.
Yeah, it's so complex.
And then you have kids as well, and you want to
make it enjoyable for them and magical for them and internally you're struggling and it's yeah, it's just it's complicated and complex and I don't think enough people talk about it.
Yeah, I agree
So to start the conversation, I did want to ask you how your heart is today.
Because I know we've had some conversations leading up to this episode that it is a tough time of year.
Mm-hmm.
My heart is equally
overwhelmed and sad.
I'm overwhelmed with all of the things that there are to do before Christmas actually comes.
And I feel like I haven't had time to be sad.
And so when you ask me that, I'm like, okay, if I really ask myself, I know that I'm sad
But I haven't actually taken that much time to be sad or to grieve or to feel all of the things that I know are gonna just like spring up at some point in the next few weeks.
'Cause I've been so busy and that's part of the problem too, is like I know that I'm sad, but I haven't processed it or like really taken time to like sit down and be like
Yep, this is something that's affecting everything right now.
So yeah, overwhelmed and and sad and like I'm anticipating that wave coming.
And if you sit with
I'm gonna be a therapist and a friend for a minute.
Great.
If you sit with that sad feeling that you have, what is that sad feeling telling you?
What is it telling me?
It's telling me that I long for things that are no more or never were.
And I have this like radical acceptance of some of the things that I grieve and a simultaneous longing.
And it makes me sad that I'm sad and that those things are I don't know.
I don't know how to answer that, but I just I feel sad and I feel longing and I feel like it's telling me
that there's things missing in my life that may never be there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can I just ask a question?
Yeah.
Is there a reason you're feeling sad or
You're grieving?
I don't I don't know if I know the even the story of Like my dead dad?
Like specifics?
Did we even talk about the No we haven't.
We can get into specifics.
Should we go there?
That was gonna be my next question too, is if you were willing to share some of the things that you abbreviate.
Yeah, we'll go there.
So I'm in the Dead Dad Club
Which means that my dad is dead.
And that happened to you.
And you can make dead dad jokes when your dad is dead.
That's like part of the rules of the club.
And
That happened three years ago and it happened around Christmas time.
And I actually know a lot of people who lost parents or lost people around the holidays.
It just seems to be a time that people are like, peace out, like done with Earth
And so my dad was one of those people and I had spent all of December in the hospital with him and he was not on his deathbed by any means.
He had gone into the hospital with kidney issues.
He had had heart issues before
So that whole month was hard.
It was at the tail end of COVID.
I was the only one that could go in to see him.
So I was going in every day and processing a lot of the hard things that I grieved about
my life in general with him, like I didn't see him after the age of eleven till I was eighteen again.
And so
My relationship with my dad was complex and his life was hard and complex.
And so that whole month was really hard for me in general.
And I had a lot of different realizations during the month of December.
And so
all throughout December now I have all these like specific memories of like, oh, on this day this happened, on this day, I realized this.
On this day I decided this and
So that's kind of hard.
And then the last day I spoke to him was December 25th.
I like went in on Christmas and talked to him.
And it was the day after that he went into cardiac arrest.
And that went into the ICU and then he passed away a few days after that, right before the new year.
And obviously it's hard losing a parent, but also
he didn't really have family that was involved in his life for a lot of hard, difficult reasons and you know, him and my mom aren't together and so it was really just me and my brother.
And so when he passed, I
felt almost as though I didn't even really get a chance to grieve in like a group situation either.
Like I didn't have this like group chat to fall into or this like big family get together to like
rehash memories and things like that.
Like it was a very lonely, lonely grief for me.
And so my grief with my dad is very complex because I think about
the ways that I missed out on things in my life with him.
I think about his life.
So my dad was deaf.
and illiterate.
He was uh twin-born premature and so he had a lot of difficulty growing up and in a
his adult life and so when he died I grieved a lot of things for him and then also for me and then his death and then complex things with other parts of my family.
And that was a really hard time for me at first.
Like that was like that big first wave of grief.
And now it's like whenever the holidays come, it's like you feel those feelings.
anyway during the holidays more, but then knowing that this whole month was when I was going through all of this, it just layers it.
It layers it more.
So I really grieve, yeah, my dad and my dad's death and all of that.
But prior to that, even, you know, my family situation with my mom and extended family and things like that isn't necessarily
what I would have hoped for or longed for and a lot of the traditions that I see my friends have with their parents or their family or the ways that their parents pour into them or just the way that their holidays are set up
I've often felt a lot of pangs of grief and longing and I wish it looked like that.
I wish it felt like that.
I wish I had that type of relationship.
I wish I could lean on someone, that sort of thing
I feel like I have this double whammy of like death grief and then also grieving, you know, relationships where
people are still alive, but those relationships don't look like what I thought they might or what I hoped that they would.
Yeah, I I think like you said, there's so many layers, there's so many different kinds of grief that are going on.
So it makes sense that you're sitting with that sad feeling
And almost like I know that this wave is gonna come out, like you were saying at the beginning.
It's just a matter of how it's gonna come out and when it's gonna come out.
But everything with your dad, I mean, that was so recent too
It was only three years ago.
And I remember following you at the time when that was happening and watching that all unfold and imagining how traumatic that must have been.
When you were going through that all with your dad and you were grieving.
Did you feel like people understood what you were feeling or what you were going through?
Or did it kind of feel like this is such a unique
grief process that even possible that can anyone even understand me.
That situation were to happen to me, I don't think anyone would really be able to understand it.
Maybe you would.
Right, yeah.
But mm it's very uncommon life that you lived beforehand.
Yeah, and I would say it's the opposite in that I felt like
Nobody understood.
Yeah.
Like it felt like absolutely nobody could understand the depth and the layers and the complexity.
of it and that felt even more isolating.
Yeah.
I guess.
It's like I was the one that was with him when he can't order at a restaurant because he can't read the menu.
I was there
when, you know, he would have conflict with people because they were making fun of him for being deaf or when he had
you know, issues just in his life in general.
Like I saw all the things that he struggled with and then I saw how it affected, you know, myself and
you know, my brother and and things like that.
And so grieving that part of his life and then being a mother as well and knowing what I kind of
do for my kids and how I advocate for them and what I have access to and the resources that I have and knowing that his mom didn't have that and he didn't have that and all these layered feelings of I felt like I was processing his whole life
and processing my whole life and processing what happened between him and my mom and what happened, you know, in the second half of my life when I didn't see him and thinking about all the things he probably felt when he couldn't
access us that I'd never really thought about that much before.
It's like I had this processing of absolutely everything and then that was happening while he was alive and I had this sort of
epiphany of I really want to spend so much more time with him and do so much more with him that I couldn't do over the pandemic.
and didn't do much of before that because my kids were babies and it was really hard when you know your parents don't drive, don't work, and you know, you're in like a caregiving role for them.
So I had this epiphany over the holidays and when he was in the hospital, I'm like, once he gets out, I really want to pour into him and spend more time with him and learn more about his life and write down his story and and all these different things
and then for him to die so suddenly and not have a chance to do that and then
feel guilt that I logically know is misplaced but still feel and I would have so many people be like
I know how you feel.
Like my dad died.
My dad was my everything.
He used to come and fix my car and he always had words of wisdom for me.
And I always knew that he would
be there for me and he made me feel so beautiful and seen and they would share, you know, good things about their dad or even hard things about their dad and be like, I I know exactly how you feel and
Or, you know, they'd be, you know, in their sixties, seventies being like, I lost my dad recently too and and I just I had this like inner almost like rage of like you have
Absolutely no idea.
And not to discount their grief in any way.
Like their grief is different and unique in its own way to have such, you know, a loving
fulfilling relationship and to lose that person, like all grief is valid.
But I had this like unseen moment of like, there is no one that's ever gonna understand how hard and complex it is.
Like I feel like it's when I really started grieving not
having a dad in general and I never felt like I could say that because I did have a dad, but I just didn't see him for half my life and before that he wasn't a typical dad and so I feel guilt about that as well and
Like I can't say that I haven't had a dad, but I also have all the qualities of someone who didn't have a father figure.
Right.
You know, like self-esteem issues and and all of those things.
And so
Yes, I have felt this deep like nobody understands, nobody will ever understand like this grief is mine to hold and it is just really hard.
Yeah.
And when we're grieving and we feel like no one is ever gonna understand our grief, it makes you turn inward and have a hard time expressing it, right?
Because if you're trying to tell someone, oh I'm so sad right now, I feel terrible, I feel guilty.
I feel like I'm grieving not only the loss of my father, but I'm also grieving the loss of the father that I never had.
Yeah.
And people don't understand that, then it feels even more isolating.
Yeah.
So it's just
It sounds like it would have been so hard for you in those moments to know even how to turn to your friends or your community or to anyone to even talk about what you were going through.
Yeah, like just even knowing what to say and who to say it to.
And, you know, knowing the only people that really I had access to that knew him were my brother and my mom, who is separated
from him and I also have a complex relationship with and you know not having those other people to talk to.
My husband's grandfather passed away around the same time
And he was in his nineties and he died at home in his bed surrounded by, you know, his adult children.
And, you know, they had a WhatsApp group chat and I know for like weeks, you know, my husband was getting like pings on his phone and there'd be like pictures of like grandad at Christmas in ninety-five or granddad doing this or granddad doing this and they would, you know, be laughing and like sharing memories of
him and, you know, my husband went to the funeral and obviously it was sad.
Like it was, you know, sad that you know he passed away and and all that stuff.
But there was this like memory sharing and this collective grief that they could have together
that I was jealous of it.
Like I was jealous that they got to grieve together and process that together and that I felt so alone in my grief and that even though I had people that I could lean on
they weren't people that really got it or knew him.
Yeah, it wouldn't be they wouldn't be capable of understanding that
That background you had.
Yeah, and I sometimes feel the weight of keeping his memory alone as well.
Like I sometimes feel like I'm carrying that.
on my shoulders because of that as well.
Right.
Like you're the only one who can keep his memory alive or Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like deep in your story and and as you're talking, I'm noticing myself feeling teary and just like imagining how hard that must have been for you.
When people were saying things like, Oh, well my dad died too
What would have been helpful for you to hear?
I mean, even having anyone reach out to say that they've had a similar experience, there is a level of feeling seen in that you're not alone and
So I don't want to make it like anyone saying that their dad died made me like, oh yeah, you don't get it.
You're the worst.
So I mean anyone sharing their experience generally is helpful.
I would just say
The thing that I really didn't like was then when people said, I absolutely understand.
Because the thing I felt the most deeply was that nobody understood.
And so I generally prefer when people, you know, maybe share their stories or ask questions or say, you know
you know, I'm thinking of you or I don't really know what it is they can say.
I just know what I don't like.
And I think it's important to talk about because I mean anyone I've talked to has gone through any sort of loss.
Yeah.
Everyone has
the conversation about like the funeral, right?
And how people say things that are just like this is not a good thing.
Yeah, it's almost comical.
It's almost comical.
And it's because you feel awkward, right?
Most people feel awkward.
Truthfully when I go to a
A funeral.
Like I never know what to say.
Yeah.
People I don't know what to say.
Like I feel so nervous when I go to funerals.
I'm like, I have absolutely no idea what I should be saying or doing, how I should stand, how I should look at you.
I mean the worst is when you're the person who is grieving and every single time you see someone for weeks or months, they greet you with this like
How are you?
And you just right are like, can we not do that?
Can we not do that?
Yeah, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given
for supporting someone who's going through something hard, whether it's grief, whether it's, you know, divorce, whether it's sickness, like when people are going through something hard and you truly want to support them, meet them where they're at.
So if they're having a day where they want to laugh and joke in general or joke about having a dead dad or their diagnosis or whatever it is, like meet people where they're at.
and be with them in that moment.
If they want to not think about it, not talk about it, don't force them to talk about it.
And if they're feeling their feelings and they're sad and they're wanting to process, then you can
sort of like get down on their level and process with them and listen with them and that has really carried me through supporting other people in my life as well that have been going through a lot of hard things where I go, I don't really know what to do
And just sort of matching the energy of the person that I'm trying to support, I find goes a long way.
And erring on the side of, I'm listening, yes, that's hard.
as opposed to giving advice and trying to tell them that you absolutely understand what they're going through because chances are you don't really and most people have a hard time putting into words what they really feel like
Yeah.
I agree.
And I I think it's important to know too that not every grieving person wants to talk about all the time.
Right.
And sometimes they do.
Right.
So I think even in my friends, let's say who've gone through miscarriages or losses
and I'm supporting them, being their friend through it.
They don't want to necessarily talk about that every single time they're with me.
No, that would be tiring.
That would be tiring, right?
Yeah.
And if I every time I look at them like oh
How are you today?
Yeah.
Which would be my tendency because I'm I'm that friend, right?
How's your heart?
How are you doing?
And there's room for that, right?
There's always room for the check-in.
But if you're doing that every single time, they might put their guard up and be like, I don't wanna be sad every time I'm with you.
Yeah.
And sometimes they just wanna
laugh and talk about the weather, right?
And sometimes it takes more energy to explain to people how you're feeling.
Yeah.
I find that sometimes now, especially being someone who is somewhat of a public figure and gets recognized and things like that, is that
So many people know what's going on in my life that when they meet me, they're like, ooh, tell me about XYZ.
And it could be a good thing or it could be, you know, a hard thing.
Oh, this thing happened, you know, tell me about it.
How are you feeling?
And their intentions are really good
But I can get tired of like having to explain what's going on and how I'm feeling and all the layers and all those pieces
where it ends up draining me more than it ends up connecting me and filling me.
And so it's that reading the room of
Do they really want to talk about it or do they just want to be in your presence?
Right, exactly.
Yeah.
I think that makes sense.
Scott, I kind of wanted to turn it to you for a minute.
And I don't know what you all want to share so we can cut this if if there's things that you don't want to share.
Okay.
But I do know that you have had
various also layers of complex grief over the years.
Of course.
And I think you and Libby, like of anyone that can understand each other, I'm like, I feel like I'm with two people who can probably understand each other.
That's probably true.
Yep.
On deep levels.
Yeah.
Right.
And so I'm not sure if you're comfortable sharing any of the grief that you've gone through, but I know
This holiday season feels a little lighter than the previous one.
Probably 'cause I'm medicated now, so that helps.
Cheers to medication.
Now we interrupt you with an ad for no, just kidding.
Uh no ads for medication.
But yes, it does help.
That being said
We've had some pretty difficult holiday seasons that have been filled with a lot of grief and you've had those kind of dating even back to being a child.
Yeah.
And so I was wondering if you were willing to share some of your experiences of grieving during the holidays.
Well, I even feel as though still now, my extended family.
on my dad's side.
Still does grieve every year and it's been twenty years since my grandfather committed suicide this year.
I think it was twenty years this year.
Uh and that was very sudden.
And I don't know, I think it probably took about a decade for them to at least in my view, for it to seem like we were enjoying having
Mm-hmm.
Christmas gatherings together.
It was I mean you were there for was it not long after No, it wasn't long after he Like five years after he died?
And you could you could tell, like you could sense it before that like my
I think we talked about it in our Santa episode.
Like my vision of the Christmas season was before that at their house
And it was always colorful and it was fun and everything.
And then after that it's all it's much darker and and it I just feel like a lot of joy was taken from that time of year because he was such a major part of the
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com/slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
Robot Unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Family
the kind of patriarch of the the entire family was no longer there and he had a big booming voice and was always had the grandkids on his his lap and everything like that and then all of a sudden that was just there was an empty seat where he
He was.
Can I ask a question?
Yep.
When you would get together with your family, would it be a time for people to talk about it and would they share about it, or was it the sort of thing what
Was there shame?
Was it sort of we don't talk about this, but you could feel the aura of sadness?
I guess how did your family process it together?
I would say
By default, my family can tend to come off a little bit more angry.
So like there'd be arguments and that kind of stuff.
I don't know that
Maybe that like they would definitely share memories and all that kind of stuff.
And I think the first couple years, few years especially, it was
just more pure sadness.
And they would maybe talk about things that were happening.
Or like memories of my grandfather.
But then I think it turned to kind of just getting annoyed with every each other and
Yeah, and I mean not even like I think it's probably that's a regular family dynamic.
It's not something that I think anyone was comfortable talking about.
Yeah.
Because he clearly had a mental health issue, like illness.
Right
And I like my personal belief is that that was long lasting.
That wasn't just that time and because he had a hip replacement and was on a certain medication that
Caused it or something like that.
It maybe aided in his decision to do that, but it wasn't that was always there, but
Like it was almost as though we were making excuses and people weren't agreeing on why it even happened to begin with and so I don't know.
I feel like over the past few years it's been a fun event to go to with the family and everything.
I mean there's
There's gotta be like eighty of us now been going to this.
Yeah, he was the patriarch of a very large family.
Yeah.
Like a lot of people in the family.
It's a lot of people.
And so his death was
I mean a surprise, first off, and again, similar to what you're saying about your dad, not the same, but similar in that it's very hard for someone to understand.
Yeah.
The feeling of losing someone to suicide.
Most like not maybe not mostly, but a lot of the time 'cause my mom was in and out of the psych ward constantly.
So we would spend months there at a time.
He committed suicide while me and my siblings were there.
And it was just us, my grandmother, my uncle that were there that day.
So even that, like
the experience that my siblings and I had is not something that I think very many people can
So it was just a little bit.
It was a father figure and it was also I know when I'm stressed because I'll wake up with nightmares hearing the screams that I heard that day.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah, it was also traumatic.
Yeah.
Right.
It took years to to grieve that.
I don't know how if I did it health in a healthy way or not, but it was probably not always.
No, definitely not.
Yeah, right.
But I was also a kid when it happened.
Exactly.
And how old were you?
Around twelve.
Wow.
Maybe younger.
Yeah, so the loss of your grandfather was the loss of father figure.
And it was also a traumatic event because you were there when that happened.
Yep.
And then you didn't have the support, so when you were a child, it's not like counseling was really talked about or like that wasn't even on the table, right?
Like
Oh, let's get this kid some counseling.
He just loves it.
'Cause then I obviously couldn't stay there anymore.
Right.
My other grandparents like sent me off to cadets and like tried to force me out to do things 'cause I think they didn't know.
Yeah.
Yeah, just keep them busy.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Isn't that what we all do?
Yeah.
What we learn to do.
Just stay busy and then you don't have to think and you don't have to feel and you don't have to process.
Just
Keep your head down and do the things.
And stay busy, right?
And at what cost.
And that's what I was thinking.
Well, I think before that I was already busy, but then after I was working full time during Yeah
Grade school and high school after that.
And what I was thinking for you, Scott, too, is like kind of what Libby was saying.
It's like you know eventually you have to feel these feelings.
And it's really easy to just stay busy and to not feel it
But when we're grieving, especially over the holidays and the feelings come, if we just keep pushing it down, it will come out in other ways.
Right.
So whether that's ang like we're kinda talking about anger like being the default or just being annoyed with everyone in your family.
Or being like, I don't want to go.
Yeah.
It will come out in some ways.
And I was thinking about your story and I feel like a couple years ago.
Yeah, right.
That's when your grief finally came out.
It's crazy how different
You are two years later.
I know.
How did it come out?
So I don't have a relationship with my mom as well.
And a whole event occurred where she showed up at a Christmas play that the kids were in, or my oldest daughter was in.
And it led well yeah, it was like six months of
constantly crying and let out all the tears.
Yeah, I feel like you held in tears about your grandfather and then you held in tears about the relationship that was lost with your mom.
And
That's what I wanted to talk about too, is like grieving.
Can I just say I don't feel like I can relate to you on that where I think f from a y an early age I already knew that I didn't have
a mom that was the same as others.
And yeah, maybe I kind of wished for it when I was a kid, but then as I grew up, I kind of was like, this is just what my life is.
I feel like you built a wall really early on and decided for yourself
Yeah.
This isn't gonna happen for me.
Like I'm never gonna have this relationship.
Yeah.
Yeah, you really built and I even when we were dating and used to live there at home, that wall was already up.
Yeah.
I didn't understand.
No one understood, right?
And it's so hard to understand that.
It is.
And I I know not tons of people, but
you know, a few handfuls of people who have estranged or difficult or non existent relationships with their mothers.
And a pattern I've seen is
It tends to be more men that disconnect easier or build a wall easier or move on easier.
And women, I don't know what it is psychologically, sociologically, the society, what it is, but we tend to feel this responsibility.
For our mothers, even when the relationship is difficult or toxic or hard, there's like this internal drive, whether it's to fix, to help, to mend.
I don't know if it's that we see ourselves in them.
I don't know if it's external pressure.
I don't know what it is.
But you know, it took me a long time, many years of therapy
to see how strong my desire is to help and to fix and to mend and to save my mom.
Even when I was being hurt, that drive is just there.
And I would see different, you know, men I knew in my life who they could just be like, nope, like they're not my responsibility.
Like that
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't know.
I wonder if there's like a part of you where like, okay, well that would have been easier, you know, if I could just shut it out in that way.
But I agree I've
also seen that experience in a lot of women who are like you just have this feeling of attachment of closeness with your mom even if there is like such a ruptured difficult relationship and that's hard.
And I don't even know that I would say
it's attachment and closeness.
I would even say that for me, I would have feelings of like angst and frustration and tension, like
constant tension and at the same time this deep desire to help and fix and make it better.
Like it was your responsibility to make that relationship better.
Yeah.
And also, you know
In the way that I grew up, it developed a lot of resilience skills and a lot of, you know, keep busy
figure it out, fix the problem skills.
And so I've always been someone who's able to just like it for you.
See you.
Yeah.
Learn it.
Yeah.
And so I've always been someone who's like, oh, that problem I can fix it.
that thing, I can do it, I can overcome that.
I've been an overcomer.
I'm a resilient person.
I can fix things.
And when it comes to your parents, to your mom, it's that's like another thing that you want to be able to
to fix, I think for a lot of women anyway.
I wonder like when you were growing up and you have a brother too, whose responsibility was it in the house to be the caregiver to make sure everything was functioning the way it was supposed to in a house and
To make sure everyone had the care that they needed.
Yeah, there was no explicit expectations.
That's the thing.
I mean growing up.
It was kind of just get things done and if there's no dinner then make dinner and if there's no breakfast then make breakfast or go to the breakfast club and if there's no clothes then wash them.
And I developed this internal need to be that person.
And so I don't have any explicit memories of being told that something is my responsibility.
But I do know that I have always felt a deeper sense of responsibility for taking care of others and for taking care of my mom or taking care of the house or taking care of things than say
my brother has, which I mean he has lots of amazing good qualities, but I just have always had this desire that sometimes I'm even like
I would like it to go away, but it's just there.
Yeah, I feel like we have as children children have these innate care giving
ability.
Like they do.
I I even see it in our girls.
Like they try and care for their dolls.
They try and care for whatever animals that they have, right?
Try and care for us.
They try and care for us.
And so if you don't have a trusted adult in the home
I mean I don't want to go on a whole parenting rant about this.
But if you don't have a whole Oh, it's almost as though that's what the point of this podcast is.
She tricked
She did.
No, I won't I won't go too deep into this.
But if we don't have a trusted adult in the home that can provide the care that you need, you're going to learn that you have the ability to care
And that it's your responsibility to give that care.
And then if you get praised for it, then it just feeds into if I'm a good girl and I take care of everybody and I do the things that everybody else expects me to do
Then I get praised by other people.
Then I feel more attached.
Then I feel more secure.
Then I feel like I'm safe.
Then I feel like people aren't going to leave me.
Then I feel like I'm en
I feel like I'm good, then I feel like I can be someone who is safe in the world.
And the way that I'm safe in the world is by doing everything for everyone and taking care of other people and being the hero and martyr.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Like that that's that's a good thing.
I bet she could relate to that, right?
But but you didn't
get praised for those same things and maybe you didn't get your like the need for closeness or attachment met like in any way from those things whereas maybe that was the only way you could get those needs.
You're eight years old and you already have a job and you're working at a opposite thing, right?
Oh you're eight and you can work?
Oh my goodness, this is great.
Like wow, what a good work ethic you have, right?
Now we're going to be able to do that.
I also got that though.
Like I I think I got my first job when I was like 14.
I worked at like a full serve gas station.
Yeah.
I loved it.
Like I loved being able to get out of the house and all that.
And so I just felt like
most of the praise that I got throughout my life, whether it be from parents or aunts or uncles or teachers or anyone who came into my life was for doing more.
Yeah.
and being busy and taking care of things and being someone who could get the job done and work hard and have a good work ethic.
And then one day you're a mom of two young children and you decide
that you're gonna be the person who hosts Christmas for your dad who doesn't work or drive and your mom who doesn't work or drive who aren't together and you host two separate Christmases and your brother and his wife.
come and they don't have children and you do, but you still decide that you're gonna cook most of the Christmas meal and you're not gonna ask many people for help.
And you're gonna be hardcore about all the decorations and hardcore about the presence and hardcore about how everybody feels and like go over the top and do all the things.
And then one day you have a breakdown.
And that is a story about me.
Like I feel like Christmas is such a pivotal time in my journey of like changing and realizing my own ways too.
Like I
on autopilot for so long in my life, like well into motherhood, was this person who felt good enough by being in control, doing everything for everyone.
And there were definitely moments of like resentment and spitefulness and I was annoyed doing it.
Like I was ticked off that no one else would take responsibility and I was ticked off that like I was making sure mom was okay and dad was okay and I was cooking and I was cleaning and I was
thinking about the kids and I was doing all and I was frustrated by it, but I was doing it all and I had this ridiculously high expectation of myself.
And it took me a long time to realize
I don't need to, number one, be responsible for everything and everyone.
It doesn't need to be to the level that it's at, and my worth doesn't come from doing that either.
And it like I'm still undoing all of that knowing.
Yeah.
Like still.
Yeah, it's a lot of unlearning.
It's a lot of unlearning, right?
Yeah, it's really hard.
All those neural networks in your head
And all those pieces, those are all how you protect yourself, right?
And keep yourself feeling safe and seen and loved and all those things attached.
And so really like to bring it back to grief
If you don't do those things and people are potentially upset with you or you don't host a Christmas and maybe you don't see your family member, then you have to be sad.
And you have to grieve.
Yeah.
And that's really hard to you might lose them.
You might lose the relationship.
You might lose people's respect.
You might lose being the one that saves
everything.
And when people's perceptions of you change, sometimes that can be good and sometimes that can really not be good.
And you know, I had this other layer too, with holiday traditions and making things magical
Like if I don't make a turkey dinner for my family, my kids will not grow up knowing that that is a Christmas tradition
Because we don't have places to go for Christmas.
Like I almost like became the matriarch of my family very early.
And so that also makes it complex too, where I'm now like, well, I don't want to be this martyr and I don't want to be this person who's hardcore about everything and has to do everything for everyone and make everything perfect
But at the same time, there is a level of things that I do have to do or do want to do so that my children have
Christmas traditions so that they have, you know, these experiences, so that there are Christmas crackers to pull on the table, so that we have these memories that they can make 'cause if
I'm not making the memories and I'm not maintaining the memories, then nobody else is doing it.
And so I can sometimes have this like internal battle of like, no, Libby, you don't need to be hardcore about everything and you don't need to do everything and you can hand things off and also
Well, no one else is thinking about XYZ nearly as much as you.
And if you don't do them, then those aren't gonna be part of
your life and your kids' Christmases growing up and if that matters then it's on you.
Right.
Yeah, which is another big layer too, right?
Oh and again, it's I'm alone.
I'm the only one to be doing this.
And then it's the grieving of the losses of like I don't have my mom to help me out and to make Christmas special with me, right?
Like that's you.
And you don't have your dad.
And And I do have
somewhat of a relationship with my mom and I do see her.
But it's just different than for many
people my age and my stage of life, like my relationship looks different, the dynamics look different, the energy looks different.
And that's a hard thing to talk about
It's a hard thing to experience and it's a hard thing to navigate because there's another person on the end of that who also has their own feelings and experiences and traumas and reasons they became the way they became
You know, and so I can feel in a different way alone in that grief because it's almost like people can understand death grief to a degree, like, oh yeah, your dad died, that's probably pretty sad
I can understand what that would be like to a degree, you know?
But like when you're grieving somebody who is alive and who you still have a relationship with
And you're grieving the parts of that relationship and of those dynamics that nobody else really gets that is also just really isolating and hard to talk to people about.
Yeah.
Again, it's a situation where people could never understand that.
Most people could never understand that at least.
Right.
And it's not just a matter of good and bad, like they're a good person or a bad person.
it's a really painful in some ways relationship that isn't black and white.
And I think unless you've been
down that or have watched someone very closely go down that it can be really easy.
Like I know when you're going through that scott people would be like, well then just fix the relationship.
Like just don't you don't have to grieve it, she's still there.
You know right.
Or they say, Oh, well you just cut them off.
Like if they're if they're hurting you, just cut them off and for some people
It is absolutely necessary and the healthiest thing to do to not have a relationship anymore.
And there's grief that comes with that.
And for others, it isn't as simple as that.
You know, it's really
difficult, it's not as easy as that.
Simple as that.
I would say it was as simple as that for for me.
But yeah, it's that doesn't make it easy either.
Yeah.
It's simple doesn't mean easy.
Oh right.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think kinda depends on I don't know, severity is the right word, but like depends on the entire background that you have with that person.
If they're still alive.
And all the other people involved or not involved or peripherally and all those different pieces.
But I know people are still pissed at me for for doing it, but
This is the best for especially for my kids.
Right.
And you're the only one who can make that decision.
You're the only one that knows how it can be.
Yeah.
I think that's something I've had to realize more than anything, is that
No matter what, I am ultimately responsible for my own happiness and well-being and my children's safety and happiness and well-being.
And while other people might not understand the choices that I make, I understand them.
I know why.
I know the domino effect of the decisions I make and how it's gonna affect me.
And so only I can make those decisions and you don't need to explain yourself.
to other people.
If you could feel supported by someone who doesn't necessarily understand what it's like to
be estranged or to have a really complex relationship with someone who is still alive and be grieving out over the holiday season.
What would be the most helpful thing that someone who loves you and cares for you could say or do?
Are you asking me?
Either.
I'm asking either of you.
Honestly, I have friends who will just reach out.
on Christmas Day or on the anniversary of my dad's death or on important days and say, hey, I know today could be really hard for you.
I just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and I'm here if you want to talk
So they're not forcing anything, but they're letting me know that they're thinking of me and they're opening that door because I know as someone who is grieving, especially during the holidays, I don't want to be that person who on Boxing Day is like
Texting my friend being like, Hey, I know you're probably celebrating with your family, but I need to process all of my grief right now.
Yeah.
Whereas just having someone open that door
is like, okay, if I need to talk about this, then this is a safe place to do it and I don't have to overthink it and spiral into self-pity and loneliness.
Yeah.
Perfect.
Fair enough.
What about for you, Scott?
I would say the number one thing that has been the most helpful, especially lately, is my buddy and I go once a month out for dinner and a beer and we just talk about either good or bad work
Very personal stuff like the stuff we've been talking about now.
And just having that scheduled in every month.
I'm pretty sure I could say for both of us, it's been I'm not gonna use the word healing because
That grosses me out, but he and I would both say that that has been an enjoyable part of every month
That just made me think of something that I was talking about with a friend earlier this week and it's the value in the maintenance of relationships.
You know, I have some friends who only reach out when my world is falling apart.
you know, when they've seen me post on Instagram that I'm not doing well or something.
I'm like, I haven't heard from you in eight months.
Or, you know, when something good happens, I don't really hear from them, or we're not seeing each other regularly.
But when
something bad happens or if you know they're worried, then they reach out.
And, you know, there's a part of that that's like, that's nice, but
10 out of 10, I would much prefer to have a close friend who I am maintaining a consistent, vulnerable, real, empathetic, genuine, authentic relationship with
that like they already know what's going on.
You know.
They don't you know, it's that mental energy.
You don't have to like the point where you don't really know what to talk about because you've already spoken about everything.
Yeah.
But then you can be like settlement on every single thing.
Yeah.
Like, oh, your mom?
And you're like, yeah, yeah, this is where I'm at.
Oh, okay, good.
And then we you can Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like I have that with a few of my buddies.
Yeah.
No.
I think I have like three people that I one that I go out for dinner and drinks with once a month, and then two that I talk to on the phone very regularly
And I think those relationships have been really important for you in getting out of like that two years ago grief where you're like, I have to now talk about it.
And I do want to get into like before we wrap up, the different ways we cope, but before we talk about that, I just wanted to talk about one other type of grief.
We talked about a lot of complex grief today.
But I also wanted to talk about people who might be grieving and they had not a more traditional root, but like traditional grief.
life and like life circumstances in a bell curve.
Yeah.
Like most people are just having normal normal lives.
Relatively.
Like they're gonna have issues and they're gonna have but in general
It's not going to be extreme.
Right.
Like I think that you both have very and a lot of people can relate, I think, to both of your experiences to different degrees, right?
But there also is the grief
that we ex also experienced over the last two years, which is like for me, both my grandmothers passed away in the last couple of years.
And that was also a grief, right?
Yeah.
But different.
And almost what you're talking about, Libby
like having so tragic and so sad, but having some beauty to it.
Yeah.
Because we did have the family that came together and we did have the ability to swap stories and talk about how hard it was.
And
That was a painful experience and really, really sad and tragic.
And I know a lot of people might be thinking about their experiences like that this time of year as well.
It doesn't necessarily make it any easier.
There are moments where I'm still very sad about your own
Yeah.
Scott was very close with my Oma, who was kind of motherly to you.
Yeah, she was.
And that was a hard loss for you.
Mm-hmm.
And I think again, even for people who've been through a lot of trauma, if there is that mother figure, that father figure, even if it's not your biological parent, right, who passes away, that's really hard
And so I think about those losses this time of year.
And everyone I know who's lost a parent to let's say cancer or a tragic car accident or something like that.
Going to your parents' house
It still feels wrong that she's not in their uh their granny suite.
Yeah, and and I remember like the first Christmas without her, you walk in and you just assume she's gonna be there.
Yeah.
Like you forget sometimes, right?
That oh yeah, right, they're not here this year.
Yeah.
And that grief and that loss that feels really all consuming as well.
And it's real.
Yeah.
You know, I have s so many
friends who with me specifically they'll invalidate their own trauma or grief or things like that.
Because they'll be like, oh well it's not like what you went through.
But and I have to remind them like your feelings are real and valid however strong they are for whatever circumstance you are going through.
Like there is no
like gold star that goes to the person who has like the most complex, you know non-traditional grief.
Like if you
are laid up on the couch for three days because you're sad that your grandma died ten years ago.
You're allowed.
Like yeah.
You're allowed to be sad about things that make
you sad and just because it's not as extreme as somebody else's, it doesn't mean that it's not real.
And that also needs to be processed.
Yeah, exactly.
I've always said that
Pain fills the space available to it.
Yeah.
So just because let's say maybe we had more traumatic upbringings and some of that is more
Let's say you would think it's more painful.
Mm-hmm.
Complex, yeah.
It's yeah, it's maybe more complex.
I think the pain that people feel, like the pain that you
felt with your grandmother's dying is probably very similar to the pain that I felt in my circumstances as well.
Yeah, I think whenever you lose someone who you are
attached with and that close to, it's going to be painful.
Mm-hmm.
And over the last year I think I've had so many conversations.
I mean not only just in my own life about the losses that I've had over the last couple of years, but with friends who've lost babies
at you know various stages of pregnancy and the pain that they still feel and they feel they invalidate themselves, right?
'Cause they're like, well I, you know, I was only pregnant for eleven weeks, so I I can't possibly be still grieving this.
It's like, no, it's okay that you are.
or someone I know who lost their mom this year.
And so I just wanna say that like all pain is valid and all grief this time of year makes sense.
And as we talk about coping, like I was hoping we could all maybe share some things that we do to cope.
I just want people to keep that in mind, that it makes sense.
And if you need to cry about it, you need to find the space to be sad this holiday season, like that's okay.
And nobody else gets to qualify whether it counts as grief.
Exactly.
It doesn't even have to be a death, you know.
It it can be a family circumstance that you thought would look different.
Yeah.
Or, you know, a life circumstance that you thought would be different, like nobody else gets to decide that you deserve to be sad or that that counts as grief.
Like you you get to decide.
Yeah, you get to decide.
So I thought we could all maybe share a coping strategy or two that have been helpful for you in navigating your grief this time of year.
Libby you can start if you want.
Okay.
Can I tell a little story and then tell you my coping skills?
So the first time I swam in the ocean was when I was like nineteen.
I went on vacation with
Greg, my husband now, boyfriend at the time, his family, and it was the first time I've been to the ocean and his favorite thing to do with his family on vacation was play in the waves.
And I had only ever played in waves at wave pools.
And so I thought this is gonna be great.
I'm gonna go play in the waves with them.
And so I went and played in the waves and did not expect the water to be so powerful and as
happened in the ocean, I got, you know, my feet completely taken out from under me and like a face full of water and a mouth full of salty water and I thought I was dying and it like
cleared out my sinuses and I couldn't see and I was screaming.
It was extremely dramatic and probably embarrassing for Greg's family that I got touched in this wave and then you know you try to get up and then you get hit with another wave and it just like completely
leveled me and then didn't want to go again and eventually did go again, but learned that I needed to have like Greg near me and learned that I should keep my mouth shut when I'm swimming in the ocean and you know, like
to let the waves take me and to not like fight them and learn the different ways to deal with the waves.
And you know, we talk about grief coming in waves.
And you know, when my dad first died
It was a huge, massive wave of grief that hit me, that took my feet from under me and, you know, on the bathroom floor crying and like I never thought that it would end.
And now I get hit with waves of grief still that aren't quite as strong.
Sometimes are stronger than others, and I don't always know when they're coming.
But there are times in my life and times of the year that I know they're coming more.
So I know when I go to the ocean now what I need to do to prepare for the waves.
And I know now that
holidays and particularly December Christmas holidays, I'm more likely to get hit with a big wave.
Like I know
that it's gonna come.
And I might not know when it's gonna come.
I I might not know if it's gonna be a song or a smell or a place or something somebody says or a post I see on social media.
Like I don't know
but I know that I'm at the ocean in December.
Like I know that I am playing in the waves and I'm gonna get hit at some point.
So just knowing that, I feel like my first coping skill or tip is just
going into this season with full awareness that it is going to happen and not fighting it or trying to avoid it or trying to convince yourself that it might not come like knowing, expecting like this is going to happen at some point.
And having some level of preparation helps me.
Like just being aware that like this difficult thing is going to happen really helps me.
And so one of those things is
I let my close people know I'm just fragile.
Like in December, I am a fragile human being and I might look like the life of the party, but you might say one wrong thing that could send me into a puddle of tears and it's not you
It is my grief and I'm fragile right now and I I almost I operate out of this.
If I just let people know then
I can have my moments of grief when they come without overthinking it and without as much shame or guilt or
whatever it is that like comes along with that wave of grief.
I don't have to fight it as much that I can tell my people close to me like I I might have a moment.
And then I also like to have like at least one grief buddy
Those people that I know that I can text them and it's like one there's like one or two people in my life that I know that I could text them
Or call them any day and be like, I need to talk about this hard thing and I don't have to worry that they're gonna think that I'm a Debbie Downer or they're gonna
bright side me and be like, oh but your kids are so healthy and happy.
Oh, but your house is so lovely and smells like Christmas.
Like they're not gonna try and just like make it better.
They're gonna be like, yeah, that really
sucks and you don't deserve to have a dead dad and I wish you weren't cooking the turkey this year.
Like those people, like having those people
Yeah.
And then I also something I've tried to start doing is purposefully making myself cry.
Like I can have a hard time making myself process things and that makes me more likely to like
go into oblivion on like a random Thursday when I'm out with my friends or you know when my kids just ask me a simple question it
It's like more likely to send me because I haven't processed it.
So I will like take the time to be like, I'm gonna go for a drive and listen to my sad grief playlist.
And I pick the saddest.
songs and I play them really loud and I just cry like a baby or you know I sit down and journal and do something like that.
So I like make myself feel it.
And it like I don't want to say it gets it out of my system, but it like almost gives me a sense of control over I've processed at least a bit of this, so I'm less likely to like
cry in Michaels when I see a sign language I love you hand.
Of course.
Yeah yeah yeah.
No I love that.
I feel like What's funny is that sounds very much like how you deal with it.
That's how I feel with the
So I don't know, unrelatable to me.
I'll be like, I know I need a good cry.
And so I'll watch something that will make me say to me like
Every few months, like I just need a good cry.
And I'm like, I do not understand that.
Yeah.
You just you do.
You do.
You do.
You need a good cry.
That's not something that That's probably why you cried for a full year.
Yeah, because you saved them all up.
You saved them all up.
Maybe.
How do you cope with grief?
I would like to hear how you cope.
I just fill the entire void with 3D printing.
For those not watching, Jess has an annoyed look on her face.
So unimpressed.
She's like, give me a real coping skill right now.
Yeah, right immediately.
Scott's Scott's coping skill is to um joke about things.
Joke.
And not answer my questions.
Yeah, you also sometimes give the coping skill.
The humor is good.
We do joke a lot.
You make our friends very uncomfortable with your jokes.
Even very close friends, like the the joking, can get to the next actually even around my dad too.
I make some of the worst jokes and it makes me laugh every time.
That's great.
It's a great coping skill.
How else do you cope?
I fill my time.
Room for improvement.
There's probably room for improvement.
That sounds unhealthy, Scott.
Yeah.
And I say that because that's exactly what I do.
I work hard.
That's why I can say it.
I stay busy.
I don't give myself time to think about things because I'm so busy.
No, that's not true.
I do especially now that we've moved, I will drive here, like to work and from work with nothing on and just think
That's impressive.
I also often will go on 30 to 60 minute walks and also have nothing on and just think.
I wouldn't say I'm like the least healthy.
That's really healthy.
I could never go for a sixty minute walk with my own thoughts.
Ever.
It would take a lot of therapy to get to that point.
To get to that point.
Yeah, I think that's really that is a healthy way you've got to do that.
And like when I'm biking too.
I never I never listen to anything and I'll be on for three hours.
You have movement.
Yeah.
Being outside and movement, I feel like are the best coping skills for anything in life.
Like it is amazing how being outside and moving my body can make me feel like I'm a completely different person.
So I do try and do that every day.
Like I usually get in a minimum of thirty minute walk.
Yeah.
Sometimes I call friends, sometimes
I just listen to my own thoughts.
It's just empty.
So what I was gonna say is one of your your tools is talking about it.
Yeah, talking about it.
Yeah.
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
I do talk to my friends about it.
I was hoping you would get there on your own.
Oh okay.
Yeah.
No, you're you're really good at like now.
I think you lately you see the importance in actually sharing how you're feeling.
And
not just with me, but you're also like you're willing to share that with your close, trusted circle of friends.
Yep.
And I've noticed that they are more willing to do the same in return.
And so I think building when you don't have that
I mean you have that with some members of your family, right?
But when you don't have that family, like people call it whatever, like your chosen family or your like the people who you choose to kind of have those deep intimate relationships with that don't have to necessarily be
Your family if you're someone who's kind of grieving that loss or can't necessarily talk to their family about those types of things, right?
Yeah.
So I'd say you have a lot of really close friends that feel like family.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well something that I
like a different type of grief, but I find really helpful is just sharing stories and talking about the person who's lost and like you were saying, keeping your dad's memory alive, right?
I think it can be easy to be like, oh let's never talk about it because it's uncomfortable, right?
But I I'm obviously no shock to anyone, a very sentimental person.
I love tradition, I love ritual, I love sentiment.
So I like to do things that like remind me of the people that I lost.
And my family's really good at this.
So for example, my grandma always made like
I've talked about this before about cake every Sunday and we always eat the same cake.
Yeah, just boxed chocolate cake.
I think I learned it wasn't boxed.
Really?
Yeah.
So that was corrected fact checked on that.
But anyway, she would always make the same cake, right?
So that's the kind of thing for me where I'm like, well now I want to make cake.
Yeah.
I mean I don't bake.
But
Yeah.
I want my mom to make that cake.
I'm not that good at baking.
You need the cake to be in existence.
I would like to make someone in existence.
Someone's gonna make it.
Or I told this story on Instagram the other day of
how I used to sit and have tea with my grandma and from these mugs.
And I inherited those mugs from her and now sit and have tea with my kids as a way to honor her memory and just have kind of that beautiful moment with my kids
And so for me, a way that I grieve and still try and function is to take those things that I did really enjoy from those memories
and try and integrate them into my life today so that I can keep some of those traditions alive and feel like I'm honoring the memory of the person who passed.
And a lot of the times that will bring up tears and make me cry
And then I think that's healthy because I think for me, crying is also a really good way that I release my emotions and cope
And I do find I noticed already December, I'm very always on the edge of tears.
Like not me.
Not you.
No, I'm literally as I'm on the edge of tears.
As you're on the edge of tears.
This year I feel like I'm not at all.
Yeah.
It's it'll come.
It'll come.
And it might surprise you, maybe.
Maybe.
Maybe it won't.
I think maybe you'll be on Sunday I think you'll be at the edge of tears.
Yeah, but that's because of the gift.
I don't know if we can talk about the gift.
Well it'll be af this will be aired after it actually happens.
Well do you want to share the gift?
That'd be such a beautiful way to end this.
Should we even like play it in the uh
Okay, yeah, you gotta tell Libby.
That's a that's like now I have her felt.
Okay, so my description of how to do it.
before my grandfather died.
Wha like she's a beautiful singer and she used to sing at concerts and different things and we have
My dad found a cassette with a Christmas concert that she had performed at and had, I think, four solos in or something like that.
So
I digitized it and then I sent it off to Jordan, our podcast editor, to remaster it.
And so on Sunday, we're gonna play that in front of the whole family.
Oh, that's amazing.
Because there's a lot of people that have never
Like I heard her.
Yeah.
She stopped singing after her husband died.
So she that's the sad part.
Like she always sang and was a beautiful singer and Scott was saying.
She sang since she was eight years old.
Like
Yeah, like she sang in the world.
Most incredible voice since she was eight.
And she stopped singing.
And she said she would like to hear this as well.
Oh my god.
So she doesn't actually know that we're doing this?
That's so music.
So that's amazing
So we're pretty like that's that's a coping skill too, is like doing something.
Yeah.
You know?
Like finding a way processing it to honor
Like and and like your grandma's still alive, but the singing represents like this time of her life that was before your grandfather passed away, right?
And I feel like so many people will do things like they'll plant a tree or I remember when my grandma died, Paige, my cousin, who also works for us.
made this like beautiful memory book, right?
That we could look through.
And sometimes something physical that you can do or make that also can really mean a lot.
And can be kind of that tangible way to show like, oh I'm grieving and this is how I'm
Keeping a memory.
Yeah.
Oh, that'll be so special.
That'll be really cool.
That'll be good.
It's uh I have like a tape deck in my office there and I was recording in here yesterday onto uh
onto the same stuff for the podcast so that I could get it on there.
That's great.
Yeah.
It's very uh quite retro.
I love it.
I think everyone's gonna find their tears on Sunday when you play that.
But I'm sure there will be a few
Well thank you both.
Thank you for being here.
Thanks for having me.
This was good.
Yeah.
I think this is a really important episode.
And as you go about your day, you know, I hope that you can take some of these scoping tools that we've talked about
And even deep deeper, just know that you're not alone.
Whatever your grief looks like this time of year, know you're not alone.
Give yourself a little hug.
And uh visualize me giving you a hug.
Let yourself be sad.
Let yourself be sad.
Maybe listen to a sad song.
I know I will be.
And uh Yeah, I'm sure tonight you will be already.
Oh.
I've been crying a lot lately.
Like
A lot.
More than normal, so I just know it's a vulnerable time of year.
I'll send you my great playlist.
It's very popular.
All right.
We'll talk to you all soon.
Hey friends.
Thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.
rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there.
Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.