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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01)
Hello. Thank you for being here. Today I have Dr. Mariah Brewer who's joining us to talk about periods and women and rest and work and all the things. And I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for doing this.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (00:14)
Absolutely. I'm so happy to be here and to talk about, you know, what it's culturally we've changed how we talk about periods and stuff, but it still can be a little taboo. So it's fun to talk about it and be more visible with it.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:26)
Well, this is for Feminist Founders, which is business owners, entrepreneurs, folks who are running small businesses, who want to create more equitable and just worlds, who want to honor the full humanity of all people. And having periods is something that is for about 50% of the population for a large portion of their lives is a reality and is just part of being human. And yet,
Becky Mollenkamp (00:53)
I imagine if there's any men who happen to be watching, they're already feeling a little uncomfortable. And maybe even some women, because you're right, I think we've re reduced a lot of stigma, certainly compared to a hundred years ago. And yet, I think that is still something that many people have like the hushed tones around. We we don't talk about this with other people. That's something you keep to yourself, versus many other.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:20)
bodily things that we deal with. Like I just went and had a mammogram today. I I talk about going to get my mammogram or I talk about going to the doctor when I have a cold or just other things that happen with my body. But with our periods, there still I think often is this like shh thing. And I wonder what you think that's about. Because I think there's a couple of reasons and I'd be curious to hear what you think that's about.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (01:40)
Yeah. I've got some thoughts. Ooh, I've got some thoughts. Part of it I think is usefulness. Our periods are not
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (01:48)
clearly useful to people in society, to men, to other folks. So there's this invisibility we carry around it because it's not useful to anyone. So they're like, get it out of here. Like we don't want to talk about it. I think we talk about pregnancy and other and other things like that because our uterus is being used and it has utility for the family and for society and things like that. But when it comes to our periods, it's just this private thing we carry alone. I remember
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (02:13)
My mom celebrated my first period, but like my dad felt really awkward about it. And you know, even just monthly, if I talked about pads or talked about certain things, it was just like there was just this discomfort around it. and I think if periods were useful, I think if men could get some benefit out of it or extract some benefit out of it, we would talk about it more for sure.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (02:34)
The other thing is I think people aren't we've like constructed this social being of the human as a man, frankly. And so when we say, it's a it's it's a human thing, like it's a part of our humanity that we experience periods or that we menstruate or whatever it may be, men are like, well, no, because it's not how we conceive of our humanity, or it's not, you know, it's outside. So and then it it goes into
Becky Mollenkamp (03:03)
I just lost you. Hold on. Let's get your audio back.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:08)
And sorry everyone, I know with the audio we we may have right there. Yeah. Keep going.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (03:09)
Yeah, we can
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (03:16)
I don't know. I hope it I hope it works.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (03:19)
But but yeah, there there's also, you know, when we had a society where men went to work and women stayed home, there was this idea that men's worlds and men's life were public facing and women's was private. And so I think it's like all constructed under that. It's how we shape our gender and society around the idea that what goes on with women that is only about women is private stuff and what goes on with men is like a public facing thing. I think there are many reasons, but I honestly usefulness, frankly.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:48)
I I love that because I hadn't thought of it that way, and I think that is really interesting to consider. Another one that comes up for me is why women might self-silence around talking about when they're having their period or even though even their needs when they're having which we're gonna get into. But I think part of that is it is perceived as a weakness because there are issues that come around. It's hormonal, it's there are so many things that can cause you to be tired, to be
Becky Mollenkamp (04:16)
irritable, to be, you know, to need extra care, to need some downtime. And in a world where we're trying to live up that ideal, quote unquote, of being like a man, anything that makes us be perceived as weaker, less than, more needy, we also don't want to talk about because we don't want to draw attention to that. and so I think that's also something to think about.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (04:38)
Yeah, we don't want to highlight any gendered needs or gender differences that may exist because we fought for legitimacy and for visibility in terms of like being full humans and being like men capable, as capable as men. And so anything that is evidence of us being different from men feels like regression or feels like it could be harmful to our social image, our political position, whatever it may be, economic, right? All of those things. so so yeah, absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:08)
Yeah. And I w I feel like since we're talking about gender, it's a good place to say, certainly from the femur feminist founders' perspective and probably yours as well, that we acknowledge that men can also menstruate and that this is about bodies that menstruate, not there are some gendered differences on the whole when we speak about those things, those are
Becky Mollenkamp (05:29)
more like societally perceived differences. But I just think it's important to acknowledge too that we're not excluding transm men who also have periods and the very real challenges and actually compounding challenges that then also come with that set of that identity and
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (05:44)
Absolutely. And I'm glad you said that because yeah, even in this early conversation, I like to distinguish between sex and gender, even though both are technically kind of socially constructed. But but you're right, we're talking about menstruating bodies which can exist across the gender spectrum. So it's important to be inclusive of that.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:00)
Yeah. And certainly some of those gendered things are, you know, these are things that are considered norms. And so sometimes shorthand we're speaking that way, but I just like to make sure that we make that note so that everyone knows because it's about again honoring that full humanity of people. So why are you and I talking about periods? I think I might have jumped the gun and just gotten right into it because I think it's interesting. But I think tell people
Becky Mollenkamp (06:23)
What your interest is, I I know you have like home and you can tell people what that is, but even before you get to telling us what like home is and why, what got you what made you go down this path of periods as an area of passion for you?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (06:37)
Yeah. I think I think I was even talking to my mom. She was like, look at the inconveniences in your life or look at the struggles in your life, and that's probably where you'll think about your passion or you'll think about an invention or something that you can contribute. And so for me, that was my monthly period. Like it was just a rough time of month for me. in college, I would get fevers, be vomited, just like so tired, wouldn't go to class.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (07:02)
it was it was just really rough. And you know, some people thought I was being dramatic, frankly. And at times I thought I was being dramatic. I'm like, who am I performing for? Who could I possibly be dramatic for? But I'm just like, this I was in pain. I was I was popping Tylenol like it was tic-tacks, like just trying to make the pain go down. and over time, I am t I'm 32, I'm about to be 33. I started my career when I was 12. So I've been mentoring for 20 years, and it took me about
Becky Mollenkamp (07:33)
It's all right.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:42)
Sorry, technical difficulties. That's all right. You're good. I can hear you now. You've been menstruating twenty years.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (07:42)
Sorry. I know. Geez. I really wish. Okay. Okay. come on. Yeah, I've been trading for 20 years and probably took me about 15 or you know 15, yeah, because in my twenties of like figuring out what's my setup. So like
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (08:02)
start tracking my period. At first it was irragu irregular, but I start tracking my period to figure out, okay, when is it coming? How can I prepare? Like trying to shape my life around this this thing that happens to me every month. and so I started tracking my period.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (08:17)
which is how I learned that, you know, it was irregular. I tried a birth control in my twenties, which just made me bleed like for months like at a time or days at a time instead of that. and then I tried nutrition like working with nutritionists, which actually helped my inflammation and my pain go down quite a bit. and and it just felt like okay, every month when I knew my period was coming, I'd get my tea, my heating pad, like my comfiest clothes and just try and just bear down and and get through it.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (08:46)
and so it wasn't until the talk about usefulness. I had also gone to the gynecology several times, like trying to bear like, hey, this is what I experienced, and they just prescribed me a higher dose of painkillers. And and then some some just kind of blew it off, like, yeah, periods of painful, and just kind of kept it pushing. so it wasn't until I was seeking assistance on fertility. my my husband and I were struggling for.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (09:15)
Fertility and so or infertility, so we sought expertise. And it wasn't until then that I finally got some diagnoses and got some support. So I got diagnosed with PCOS, which is now PMOS. got diagnosed with fibroids, and then I had a polyp or growth in my uterus too. So it was just all these things that kind of happened in the last two or three years. and in that process, it kind of was a joke initially, where I was like, it would be so nice if I could just go somewhere when I was in my period and just receive all the care that I needed. Like
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (09:45)
It'd be nice to have a really comfy place and people who understand that I don't have to like, you know, pretend like I'm not in pain or pretend like I'm not bleeding or it it would just be so nice if there was a community of people who just got it and and it was just it was just that. It wasn't something I had to do alone or struggle alone.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (10:04)
and so I started thinking about and I still would like to do this a period care home where you can kind of go and there's silent rooms and there's comfy couches and you get tea and you know, you can have no contact or low contact. Like I don't really like to talk to a ton of people, all that stuff. but then I decided, you know, well, let me start with what may be more accessible to more people, which is like in home services or virtual services. And so something that was really valuable to me was just all of the research and learning I was doing. I have
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (10:33)
a PhD in sociology. So I research. I like, you know, knowing what I'm talking about or knowing what's going on. And so learning how to cycle sync, learning what foods worked with certain parts of my cycle. And then just talking to my friends about it. And they're like, I had no idea about this. And so I'm like, it'd be so great if there was a place, an app, where that's how Lycom came to be a place where I could go or you could go. And you'd have your profile that already lists all your typical symptoms and already lists all the things. And then
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (11:03)
You could get virtual support. So cycle syncing through nutritionists who provide insights into what foods would be best for you, or people who would even meal plan for you. Like, hey, here's a menu I developed for this phase of your cycle just to support you during this time. There's dietitians that I've talked to, even acupuncturists I've talked to that support with painful periods and things like that. There's just such an a huge ecosystem of resources and people and research that could make people's life.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (11:33)
better if they had access to it, if they knew it was available and that this time of month wouldn't have to be something that you just grid and bear or it's something that you like anxiously anticipate. It could be something where you actually know you're the most supported that during that time of month and you experience the most community during that time of month. Beyond the virtual services, the idea would be that there be in-home services as well. So a period care doula that could provide and support you in your in your home. So that's kind of the why behind it and a little bit of the vision.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:00)
Okay. There's so many things there that I just want to like talk about. And it's so good. Because one, you talked about the like feeling crazy or like dramatic. Am I making this up? Am I and again, like why and for whom? Right? Like what but the way I think because of how all the things we talked at the beginning and how society views periods, hides periods, makes women feel about periods, you know, I mean, going back to this idea of women being hysterical and things, right? Like
Becky Mollenkamp (12:29)
There is a long rooted history of sexism around menstruating bodies. And in particular, I think it's weaponized very harshly against women with menstruating bodies, where it is this like idea of hysteria and that we are being dramatic and that it's all too much and get over it. And it's not that bad. And I think what can make that more even more challenging is for some women, for some people who menstruate, it isn't that bad. So as an example, I am a lucky person for whom.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (12:51)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (12:55)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:58)
I have never really had to deal with really intense cramping every once in a while, you know, like, but I a lot of the and I certainly have not had to deal with fibroids and PMOS and all the other things that you've had to deal with. And so for me, my periods have been rather easily managed throughout my life. And now I'm getting to this lovely stage of life where they're starting to end that comes with its own set of issues, which I'm sure you're gonna learn a lot about too. your mom's probably told you. But that can make it difficult when you have a portion of the population, like you already have a full.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:26)
Almost 50% of the population that just doesn't menstruate, doesn't understand, can't, and won't, and in many ways is actively trying to belittle this experience. And then you have a portion of that other 50% for whom the exp that the experience of what a period can be is vastly different. Yeah. In the same way, pregnancy is vastly different. And so many things in our bodies do are a cancer journey can look different for everyone. Like, no matter what the thing is, everything is hyper-individualized, and yet.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (13:41)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:53)
We are all made to sort of be like, well, the one person can't handle it. One person handles it great. So why can't you? Right? We're all held up to the one ideal. And so I just, as you're talking about that, I'm thinking that's that makes things more challenging. Because then even in a workplace where you might have a woman boss and women coworkers and whatever, right? You might have other administrators all around you. They there is still so much of this internalized sexism that we've all been given that then gets coupled with.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:21)
Personal experience sometimes, whether it's their shame around their fact that they can't, they don't have the perfect period, or they're one of the lucky people who do have a pretty easy period, that ends up leaving a lot of working women feeling unsupported, right? Of like, and that thing you're saying of am I, is there something wrong with me? Am I the only one? Am I being dramatic? Again, why? But so how like in a perfect world, what would you love to see for how?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (14:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:50)
We as a society treat people who menstruate, just on the whole, in all the ways.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (14:56)
It goes back to the old faithful motto, believe women. This is just just believe menstruating people. Like it absolutely can be the case that it is different for, you know, in a group of ten that three of them have extremely severe, two of them have extremely severe, you know, four of them have moderate and how many did I say? Four have you know, have not nothing. It's three days, it's delightful, and they they move on, you know.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (15:23)
And as a woman, as a person who menstruates, still I'm gonna support the the other one who goes, you know, my sister-in-law has severe periods, like has sent her to the ER, endometriosis diagnosed, all of these things. My experience is not her experience, but she should have support. You know, I I believe that. And it may be the collectivist communal mindset where
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (15:47)
You know, we've gotta have to let go of the idea. Well, it's not happening to me, so it must not be real or must not be as bad as you think. That that is so frustrating for me, especially as a black woman who has not been believed in healthcare spaces. I remember I talk about this whenever I talk about healthcare racism or medical racism. I had a concussion, I hit my head, it was really painful, went in the ambulance, and the EMT asked me on a scale of one to ten, how's your pain? And I remember thinking, it feels like an eight, but I'll
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (16:17)
Say six because I think they'll think I'm being dramatic. So I said six and they said it's probably closer to a four. So they wrote four. So like I I screwed myself over. I mean, I was 19, I was a kid, you know, but I screwed myself over, and then they added to that tax, you know. So already in these spaces, women, women of color, black people are up against so much that it really is as simple as believe.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (16:42)
Believe women, believe people of color, believe the people who are saying they're going through what they're going through. yeah, I I mean, even for me, my mom had delightful periods. So she did not understand. She really thought I was being dramatic. you know, and then it wasn't until years later she had a painful period. She was like, Is this what you've been experiencing? I'm like, Yes, this is what I've been experienced. and obviously I was a teenager too. So yes, there I probably there was a level of dramatics, but
Becky Mollenkamp (16:54)
Right.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (17:07)
regardless, I think believing people about their experience is probably the simplest through line that we could we could use to change this culture. But also I just know that there's a huge cultural hump to get over with something like this. but it starts with companies offering menstrual or period leave, which some are only two percent of companies in the US at this point, but it was zero percent seven years ago. So hopefully we'll see and locally we're actually seeing shifts in in
Becky Mollenkamp (17:34)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (17:37)
Italy, I think Japan as well, a few countries who are adopting kind of universally period or menstrual leave. So we found our well.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:45)
And and I think that's one so obviously in the workplace, menstrually, period leave, menstrual leave is a hugely important ideal for us to be moving towards. and certainly the US will probably be among the last of the places to do this because we aren't even doing universal healthcare. So we have a long way to go. But I I really like I'm excited for you to help us all just even dream bigger. Like, what else would you really love to see? Because you mentioned like a home where you go, like.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (17:54)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (17:59)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (18:02)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:14)
What is it that you feel like women anyone who menstruates, like what would you love to see happen? Like if it were you and it was your ideal world, like what you would obviously so you're taking the week or however long your your cycle is, you're getting that time off of work. And then what?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (18:30)
Yeah, I I would love to see people who menstruate not have to pretend like they weren't menstruating. So number one.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (18:39)
I don't have to go to work if if that's just I mean, most of us need more rest during that time, even if and we have additional nutritional needs, even if we don't experience pain or severe, you know, symptoms, we still have increased nutritional needs. We still have increase of fatigue or needs for rest. So I love to see people who menstruate be able to be self-determined during that week and be able to choose work or rest. I would love
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (19:06)
For period care products to be widely available and free. frankly, something that has also I've explored during this time is period poverty. I think in Michigan, which my family is from, two out of five women experience period poverty and they will skip work or school because they do not have period care products. I don't think that should be a thing for a basic human need, right? So so yeah, self-determination, having access to products. And then the big part, this is my space.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (19:36)
The period care industry is a $40 billion industry, but it's all focused on products and discretion. Let me sell you something so that you can keep your period clean, clean, you know, hygiene, really. Keep your period clean and discreet, and so no one else can know that you are experiencing a period right now. I'd like to add to the industry by shifting our focus on service. I think that so much of what's missing from the period care industry is care.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (20:03)
People people need and deserve care during this period. frankly, you know, if I'm dreaming bigger, we talk about healthcare more broadly, but but if I can just focus on this, people deserve care during this time. and there are different practices around that, different cultures that do it differently. I don't think our culture and this Western individualistic culture does a good job at service and care.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (20:30)
Especially to again certain marginalized groups. And so, yeah, if I'm dreaming big, I'm thinking about just equity overall. I'm thinking about self-determination. I'm thinking about not having to reduce your humanity for a capitalistic machine, which is what this all kind of comes down to as well. we would have universal healthcare, we'd have paternity leave, we'd have period leave if the impetus of profit, the profit motive was not so compelling for the ownership class. So
Becky Mollenkamp (20:57)
Yeah, because we don't care about care. We care about profits and care work is not our most profitable center. And so
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (21:05)
It is civilized, which means we do not get paid equitably for the labor. but it's so much emotional and physical labor involved. So yeah, it's it's it's really a shame.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:15)
Well, and most of the folks doing care work are women. And then they're also bearing all the burdens of these other things and with their bodies. And I you mentioned equity. And I think that's important because one thing I can hear people saying, this is my experience from corporate America. I'm a corporate America refugee, as many people are, and like done with that life, but still can hear those echoes of people who would say things like, Well, that's not fair. If
Becky Mollenkamp (21:43)
The women in the office are getting a a week off every month, and I don't because I don't menstruate, right? Whether that's because it's a man or a non-menstruator, or like also an older woman who's no longer menstruating. Like that could be a whole host of people who are who are coming up with that argument, right? In the same way. And I think it's an easy parallel here to say, like, okay, we also have parents who have to take time to help with their children who have needs. And often that work falls on women for all the reasons we've talked about.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:12)
with care work and the undervaluing of it and having babies and maternal leave and and what and the difference between maternal and paternal leave. But anyway, I just hear that. And I would like for you to talk a little bit about equity versus equality and why that matters in this story.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (22:30)
It it's funny because everyone who kind of argues against me when I talk about equity just imagines a world where where equality, I guess, was was already a thing, and so we don't need equity. So when we talk about equality, we're thinking about sameness, right? We're thinking about what resources can we provide to everyone? How can we make sure everyone has the same thing, the thing we're giving them or whatever? equity.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (22:59)
Is about looking at the conditions. What conditions do we see certain groups experiencing? And how do we meet the needs or address the systemic barrier or the challenge or whatever the inequity? How do we address that? And that usually is more targeted than just saying, let's give everyone
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (23:17)
Let's give everyone the same thing, the same resource, the same access to resource. Equity does a good better job or the deeper work of examining how are we why why aren't we equal? You know, like that that should be an important question that we're interrogating. If equality is our goal, why aren't we equal? What's the barrier? What's the challenge? And then how do we close the gap? And how we close the gap is equity. Whatever we figure out, turns out that black women have higher levels of fibroids. so we need to think about.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (23:47)
nutritional, medical, you know, maybe even surgical, like we need to think about care holistically for this demographic rather than pretending that all people are struggling on the same level with this condition. and my gosh, this it this administration is doing a great job of just erasing and pretending like difference, pretending like inequality doesn't exist, and then just handing us a really shameful makeshift version of of equality. so
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (24:17)
So yeah, that's a little bit of the difference between equity and equality. And I personally believe in equity. if we were starting the whole society over, we could shoot for equality, but I still think we'd have to create barriers around inequality that will will get in there.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (24:34)
I can't even hear you.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:37)
Muted myself. There isn't equality isn't possible when we look at periods. Because there is a large portion of the population that just doesn't won't have them. And and that's lovely for them, but they aren't seeing that as an advantage. They right, if you don't see the baseline of like the the the privileged position is not having to deal with this thing that happens once a month in your body that's out of your control, that causes all sorts of
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (24:41)
Yeah. Yeah, right.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (24:45)
We'll have to Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:05)
Things that happen with your body that affect how you feel, how you can show up, your energy levels, all the things we've talked about. If you don't understand that not having to deal with that is already a privilege, then you're because they're considering everyone equal when you're not, right? And so equity is saying we we can't have equality here, because I can't make you have a period and I can't force other people to not have them. So what does it look like to help that other person? What do they need to give them the same advantage? Because you've already got this privilege. How do we close that gap?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (25:33)
And what people don't realize is whenever there's been a fight for equity, it has benefited more people than just the group. So if we got equity around people receiving care or leave and periods, you would probably have better leave for the things that pop up in your life too. That may be less regular or infrequent, but still could pop up in your life and you wouldn't have to go up against as big a machine because we already fought for period leave and and menstrual care.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:42)
Absolutely.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (26:01)
You might get better, better disability leave, you might get better or even existing paternal leave paternity leave. A lot of companies don't have that in the US. you might you might get mental health leave. Like there, there are so many things that once we once we are willing to open and care for one demographic, we actually realize, my gosh, everyone in the workplace benefits when we take better care of of different groups of people. we've saw we saw that with workers' rights, we saw that.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (26:31)
With the five day work week, like people fought and protest and negotiated on your behalf. So now you get to benefit from it. And you're over here arguing because, well, I don't have a period. Good for you. You don't have a period, but you may have other life circumstances or conditions that arise. and and you may want to get on the side to support this movement so that, you know, and if we're gonna operate selfishly, so that you can benefit ultimately.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (26:58)
But I certainly wish that there was more of a what happens to one of us happens to all of us perspective. I certainly wish there was more, but collectivists just like, even if it doesn't happen to me, that's fine. Like I can go to work without any additional conditions or concerns. Beautiful. Enjoy, enjoy that privilege and make sure you don't universalize your privilege so it becomes invisible and make sure you don't create barriers for other people to have access to the resources, the support that they need throughout their life.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:27)
Yeah. Instead of seeing the period as the problem, see the the privilege of not having that, right? And I think that has been the thing that's been missing for forever. And is that instead of saying, let's shine the light on the privilege of those who don't have this experience, we're shining it on the people who have this experience and making it into a problem. And by the way, that speaks to the same thing that all examples of privilege and oppression right there.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (27:54)
We're always focusing on like, we're in competition with each other. I'm like, yeah, but the billionaire. Yeah, but the owner. Yeah, but the the system, right? Like if you just zoom out, why shouldn't you, whenever you need it, be able to take leave? You know what I mean? You know what I mean? So it's
Becky Mollenkamp (28:07)
Well, and exactly. I mean, my partner and feminist founders, Faith Clark, has talked about permission structures and how those are always a sign of an oppressive environment. Like if your workplace is requiring permission, then you have a colonialized, like it is a, it is a very problematic situation. Cause that's like an ownership situation, right? If I'm if my needs, I have to require someone else to give me permission to have my needs met.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (28:14)
Mail it.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:34)
That is now we are modeling what we know we don't, most of us don't want anymore, right? but because what you said about like, if it benefits me, it benefits you. And also your you being more whole is good for all of us, regardless if I get a direct benefit or not. But I also just it makes me think about how we do anything is how we do everything. And one of the reasons something that like period care where someone might say,
Becky Mollenkamp (29:01)
We have bigger issues, bigger fish to pry, right? Like I can I can hear that kind of thing out there too. And I would say, but how we do anything is how we do everything. And when we tell a large group of people, your care doesn't matter, your needs aren't real, you are a problem because of these things in this one area. Guess what? We're doing it everywhere. It's the same way we show up around grief, telling people you got three days and you better get over it. Right, right.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (29:25)
And only nuclear family, like I just don't care about, you know, the rest of them or yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:31)
Exactly. And like, you gotta go, you are getting chemo. Well, okay, but you can only take so much time or you're you're gonna start not getting paid. And I mean, it's just everything, right? So this may seem for some people, it may not be an issue. You might look at it and think, one, I don't get periods, or two, I don't really believe they're that bad, or whatever like, we can't afford to give people period leave. Whatever the thing is that you might be thinking about it, this is how we do anything is how we do everything. And the the mentality you bring to an issue like this.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:01)
probably is speaking volumes to the mentality you're bringing to so many other care related parts of business and life.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (30:07)
agree and if I can you know do a little nod to the the holiday coming up this weekend people don't people don't understand how how it's all connected they they have a very individualistic capitalistic perspective and the ideology I was just talking to someone the idea of this being the land of the free is a mythology it's not an ideology it's not real right the ideology in this country is actually around
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (30:35)
The individual over everything and capitalism, profit. So whenever I'm hearing people that well, it's not me. It's not, I'm like, bro, what does this have to do with you? We're not talking about you. Like we're not talking about you. And you could still vote in support, or you could still, but it doesn't touch me. So it does it doesn't matter. And that, my gosh, it's such a frustration for me. But I completely agree. How we do one thing is how we do everything. I had another thought, but it's gone, so I'll let it go.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:04)
Well, if it comes back, let me know. Because the last thing I wanted to talk about, I think the last thing we'll say, but you mentioned period doulas, and I just like heart, eyes, swooning. I love like there's something so I like you can feel it in your body. I think as somebody who is either you've menstruated, like I, you know, having a baby and just going through that whole the pregnancy experience, if you've ever had a prolonged illness or a chronic illness. I mean, I think regardless of periods, again, how we do everything.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:32)
Regardless if that's the issue for you or not, most of us have had some experience where just the idea of somebody caring for us, being there at a time when you can't, like if you've ever had, if you've ever been through grief, it's that same thing that often happens where community, they bring you food and they make sure you're fed and they get your house clean and they do your errands. And and so my often it's just happening without your awareness. It's just because you are just being allowed to rest. But we do so little of that in this.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:01)
In our culture, there are many cultures that do it incredibly well, talking about collectivism. Yeah. And and I just think when you talk about that idea, I'm like, I can feel it in my bones of like, yeah, that's what we need. We need more of that, not less of that, not not questioning that. And instead of it being about why should she get that, it should be like, why aren't we all getting that?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (32:04)
yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (32:22)
Right. Yeah, absolutely. I think and it speaks to something that I am seeing happen, particularly offline, is this return to community. And I talk to people, care seems to be the one thing that is AI resistant, thankfully. at this stage at least, I'm
Becky Mollenkamp (32:35)
Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't think the robots are gonna be caring for us too. I mean, they'll they'll probably be there, but they're not gonna do a good job of it. We already know it.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (32:43)
It won't be efficient for them to care for us, so they will not give, they will not care about us. but it just seems like that human-to-human connection and care is being re-evaluated as something that matters, and it's like we've kind of devolved and dehumanized ourselves and and said we didn't need, you know, anytime you ignore a need, you're dehumanizing yourself. Anytime you ignore ignore a need that you have.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (33:08)
as a person, you are dehumanizing yourself. So if we've ignored the need for connection, for care, for rest, whatever it is, we are slowly dehumanizing ourselves to fit better into a system that doesn't it doesn't benefit from us being humans, right? So, so yeah, I I think that this return to community and to to to care is so important. And I'm hoping that if we practice it more, we'll shift our thinking around it, we'll shift our ideologies around it.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (33:38)
to be a community that is more collectivist. I don't know if on a large scale we'll get there, but I see it in micro, I see it, you know, on micro levels in in real life evidence of I've met a few period care duelists where they're you're fine you're right there some are full spectrum duelists who just you know once she's like I started to realize whenever
Becky Mollenkamp (33:52)
Sorry, that's me. Go ahead.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (34:01)
a person was experiencing fertility concerns, it usually was connected. It was happening in their period like if you looked at their period, their experience with their period, you could see kind of the evidence and everything. So she said, so I shifted my my work to include period care and to help educate and support and let people know they're not alone. I've talked to working moms who's like I left my daughter stay home from school because she wasn't feeling well. I didn't have enough leave. So I'm at work and she's my 14 year old's home alone in pain.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (34:29)
just care in that in that environment. And I think once upon a time we had communities where there was lots of aunties aunties and other mamas and bigger sist big sisters, all of these people that surrounded us in different ways. And then I think that women privately created really important care spaces for each other. again, guys, just with the Fourth of July thing on my mind.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:34)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (34:51)
I often think about enslaved women and what they went through around their periods and around birth and different things like that, and how much abuse and violence was around that. But I also know that so many of the women created care amongst and like and under this system of gratuitous violence and oppression. and so it kind of is a part of honoring a history.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (35:17)
a legacy of of women and people, women folk caring for each other and and saying, regardless of what your husband says, regardless of what a master or a system or whatever the people with power say we can or cannot do, we're gonna care for each other. And that's the mentality, that's the ideology that I would like to put forward. I want people to have that that really profound experience.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (35:44)
Of being cared for when they're at their most vulnerable, when they did not expect care, when they were not taught that this was a time of rest or a time of additional care, that they would experience that and feel that and then pass it on. And they would do it for others because that's how we also reproduce and maintain communities. We don't burn out one group, we pass it on and we make sure that everyone contributes and shares in the care.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:09)
I love that. First of all, when we talk about AI and this analog, this like digital world we're living in, the when I can get to the part of me that's like optimistic, which gets hard, as it means for you. The thing I do hold on to is these these tools are intent like if if these tools were used for good.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (36:23)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (36:29)
Okay.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:33)
It would look like how do we remove so many of the tasks from people's lives so that we can have more spaciousness for care and community and all of that, right? I don't know that that's I don't think because of capitalism and everything that that's what it's about. But if it were that way, then it would be it's beautiful. Like sure, let the machines do the things that can be automated so that more of us have more capacity for rest and to care for each other and to be in community. And what you're talking about there, I love like I just
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (36:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:03)
I love the idea of thinking about more care around this particular issue because we have death doulas, we have birth doulas, and we really can have doulas for anything, right? It's just about how do we recognize need and then meet that need with the care that we all wish we could have, whether we experience that same thing or not. I've never had cancer, but I've also never doubted anyone's experience when they talk about their experience with cancer.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:30)
And I just think if we could bring and I think most people like for whatever reason that that experience is one that so many people where their hearts can open up. And if we could allow our hearts to open up that way for so many of the other experiences that so many of us go through, I just think it would make a huge difference. So yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (37:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (37:46)
Absolutely. I completely agree. It would be it would be lovely. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep pushing towards it and meet people along the way who are aligned with it and we're gonna do our best to resist the people who tell us it's not worth it or not worthy of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:51)
I love it.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (38:01)
Because I I simply I know I know it is and I know too many people who menstruate, who suffer and who struggle and who do it inside like alone and silently. and I I don't that's dehumanizing. I don't I don't mess with that. So we got
Becky Mollenkamp (38:14)
Yeah, because like you said, we're we're made to everything tells us it needs to be hidden away. And so we all learn that message from the beginning. And I love that your mom celebrated you because that's at least one way that people can begin to d you know, rebuke that message from the start to say, No, this is something to honor and it's this is your 'cause it's gonna be with you for the rest of you know, well, not the rest of your life, but allow.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (38:19)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (38:27)
Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (38:33)
right, your adult life most of your adult life, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:37)
You got decades, you got decades ahead. So why are we shaming and hiding this thing away? We didn't talk a lot about rest, but I would just say one other reason I think that that going back to the very beginning of this and like why we don't talk about periods. I think part of that too is going kind of with the idea I said about weakness. It's it's also a time when the body demands more rest. And we do not honor rest in this country as a whole for anyone, let alone whether it's men or women, but certainly even more so the more marginalized marginalized identities you hold.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (39:07)
Absolutely. So I actually want two say two things. I'm going to say it out loud so I don't forget. So one, the barber story, and two, mothers at the university. Okay. So the barber story. We lived in Switzerland from the time where I was 12 till 16. And I remember my dad telling me that his barber has six weeks vacation every year. And at the time, my dad was like, wait, like, what do you like? What do you mean? You have six. They're like, yeah, every like every employee in this country guarantees six weeks. And then
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (39:37)
can get more or whatever, but I was like, I know so many people in the US have barely have a week of of PTO or or vacation days. So that was one thing. It really I remember in Europe, like people took their vacation. They went on trips for weeks long. It was never just like a quick three-day, four day thing that we try and do here. It was a two week long trip to the south of France or whatever it may be. and I just I
Becky Mollenkamp (39:46)
Right.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (40:04)
It was it was about what they valued. And most of them had smaller homes. most of them had, you know, not as nice cars, like those things weren't as important to them as investing in experiences and and travel and rest. So that was one thing. And then two, when I was working at a university, I remember learning that the people who or the faculty had, I believe what equated to like three months of maternity leave, and that the staff had maybe
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (40:33)
Three weeks or four weeks of maternity leave. And I remember thinking, like, are the needs of the faculty moms any different from the needs of the staff mom? Like, why would we have tiered maternity leave? That doesn't either it's a need or it's not. Like, either it's it's something that's necessary or it's not. What three weeks to heal and to bond with your child and all of the things that come along with postpartum, it just seemed insane to me. But anyways, there seems to be
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (41:01)
really glaring examples of how even when you need it the most, right? My sister literally just gave birth, had a cesarean. It is one of the most intense surgeries you can undergo. People talk about I think there's like five layers of skin and things that you cut through to right, muscle, all of it. It is a very intense surgery, but we all just go, we've normalized birth despite you know the mortality rates of of women, particularly black women in this country.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:19)
Muscle.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (41:31)
So even in times where it's like really glaringly obvious that you need rest, that you need recovery, that you need support, we still do not value it. And that that needs to shift. Now we talk about women of leisure or people of leisure, and they are extremely wealthy and they have staff and they have all the support in the world. And I love that for you. Your capital is able to purchase that for you. Great. But what we what
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (41:59)
That's not actually rest because or it's not cultural rest because it shifts the labor to poorer people, frankly. That's what's happened. Whenever we talk about leisure or rest or some we sh we just shift the labor to to people who have less power than us, have less of ability to or less fewer options, things of that nature. So that may
Becky Mollenkamp (42:05)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:17)
Yeah. Which goes back to your university example of why are some people getting t more time and less time. And there is no answer to that other than we are prioritizing certain types of people over other people. And that's gross. And if you can't have if there's no better answer and there's not, then that is something that needs to be evaluated. we could talk a long time, right? This has been amazing. Thank you for doing this. I really love it.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (42:32)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (42:40)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:46)
Can you tell people just quickly where they can learn more about like home and support you and what you're doing?
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (42:51)
Absolutely. So you can go to joinli.com. we are I'm a researcher, so we're heavy in the research phase. So you can actually fill out the survey we're collect of data we're collecting. You have 300 respondents, which I'm so thankful. People are sharing their period stories, their period care needs, and really helping us build this from the ground up with input from
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (43:11)
The people that would in theory use it the most. join like home dot com. other I'm I'm on social media, I'm on Instagram and threads in particular. I'm really in love with threads right now and falling in love with Substack too of at Mariah Lynn Joe for my threads, Instagram and Substack. But this was really awesome.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:30)
I didn't see you on Substack, so I'll tag you. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Dr. Brewer. I know you recently earned the title, so people need to use it because that's hard work. Yeah, you gotta you gotta get used to it and demand it. I think it's amazing. I'm jealous someday. no, I never will, but anyway, you like research more than I do. but thank you so much for this conversation. I think it's so important, and I think the more that we talk about our periods, whether that we're currently having them at my stage of life,
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (43:40)
Used to it, but
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (43:47)
Hello, come on.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:59)
dealing with them almost every week because it's like the last hurrah or wherever you're at in it. But I think talking about it more because we've got to normalize these things, I think, you know, I know it can be uncomfortable, but we also have to stand in that truth and know that that is like helping those who come after us. So thank you for doing what you're doing because I just think it's so valuable.
Dr. Moriah Brewer (She/Her) (44:20)
you I appreciate it. I'm so thankful to have the space to share and to continue building. So we'll see how it goes. Thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:25)
All right, thank you.