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Still Running is a podcast for women runners still figuring it out. It’s like the long-run conversation we’re all having — about running, motherhood, hormones, ambition and identity — with expert answers to the questions we’re actually asking. Hosted by Ashley and Trax, two women runners 10 years apart, the show explores what it means to keep chasing big goals through a changing life.
Ashley and Trax: Opening conversation
[00:00]
Hey Trax, how are you doing?
okay. I've been better.
Under the weather. It's been a long time. I'm sick of it. And
And I wish that I could just be back to my normal self and stop being a drag. And it's taking a long time. So and I'm impatient.
For those of you listening, Trax has been sick for over a week. If you can't tell almost two weeks.
[00:29]
Almost two weeks.
[00:34]
So she tried running a bit too early. She's not sleeping great. Altogether doesn't feel really good. Well tracked.
Not myself.
Our episode today is all about sleep, and I know you haven't been getting much of it because you're sick. so maybe it's a good topic.
Sure. It's always a good topic, right?
Okay, but before we get into it, I just wanna show and no one can see this, but mug I'm drinking out of is actually a travel mug. Can you talk about it?
[01:01]
I know.
[01:08]
Yeah, I gotta give a shout out to Lily Noble, my dear friend from New Hampshire. She makes these beautiful mugs that she designed to fit in the cup holder in your car for people who prefer to drink their coffee out of a mug, which is me. And it turns out many other people.
[01:27]
Yeah, it's so cool. It's it has the little travel cup kind of lip at the top that you drink out of and home. Yeah. That's why I like drinking it at home because as one might imagine, sometimes I spill things on myself all the time. Have I spilt my coffee out of this mug yet? I have not.
So you don't sell on yourself.
[01:49]
I bet you never will.
And I probably never will.
You never will. But also it's pretty, like it has mountains on it. She is a true artist. Go check it out. It's incredible. Noble pine designs.
All right. This is my third cup of coffee today.
Back to sleep. Can I also say something else? I have no taste buds. Coffee does not even remotely taste good. Nothing tastes good. Ugh.
[02:06]
Yeah, totally.
[02:15]
That's the worst part of being sick. I mean one of the one of the worst parts.
Yeah, it's on the top three for sure. I wake up in the morning and I'm not looking forward to my first cup. That sucks. Yeah. It's really sad. Okay, but I'm done. I'll move on. It will end. Thank you for listening.
Not being able to taste your coffee is hard.
[02:41]
All right. I hope you feel better, Trax. So let's get into this episode about sleep because this is something that you've I this is something you and I have talked about a lot. And this is something, listeners, you may or may not know I've been struggling with because I have two small kids. never done sleep training with my youngest. And so he doesn't sleep through the night. I finally recently stopped nursing him in the night.
Thank you.
[03:12]
He's a year and a half, so it seemed time. Yep. But yeah, so I don't know. So sleep has been kind of an issue. And I know Trax we've talked about sleep for you as well.
Yeah, it's by time.
[03:24]
Absolutely. As an older female athlete, sleep is probably one of my biggest barriers. Good sleep is probably one of my biggest barriers to recovery.
What do you feel like is the thing that you struggle with most when it comes to sleep?
I would say f for me at this stage it is waking up way earlier than I want to and not being able to fall back asleep. So I'm talking in the fours and you know, then just feeling like I'm dragging because of that. And the other thing is, I'll just go right in and say, get personal here and tell you that I have frequent night sweats and that keeps me awake at night. So between
The physical and emotional, you know, impact of those what used to be something I looked forward to hitting the pillow at night is now something that gives me a little anxiety.
Mm. And that probably doesn't feel good. And that might make it harder to sleep if you're anxious about going to bed.
[04:23]
Sure it doesn't help.
Yeah, I haven't slept with a night Trax in over two years. Yeah I've shared that on here before. And yeah, and also, you know, truth be told, like I sleep with my kids, so that totally makes it harder. But also, I will say last night I slept from eleven forty until
Yeah, you're in the thick of it.
[05:11]
Five with no interruption.
That's a huge night's sleep right there.
big. And I actually didn't get a bed until 10 30. I mean, I actually didn't get a bed till eleven thirty. And the thing is though, by and large, lately I actually feel fairly rested. Like I don't have a dip in the afternoon where I get really tired. And sometimes I drink a lot of coffee, but not often. I usually drink two to three, like eight ounce cups of coffee. all done before I
Right. But you eleven I was gonna say before eleven. So you're not drinking it at one or two in the afternoon.
No, I don't drink coffee in the afternoon at all. Yeah. And I don't have like a dip in energy. So I don't know. Part of me wonders
[05:52]
Your body's just gotten used to your schedule.
Yeah, have I gotten used to my schedule or am I getting enough sleep?
Right. Right. I don't know. Well, maybe you're not, but you're also making it work. Right. For where you are right now.
That's true. Though I've always had sort of lower sleep needs, I think. But maybe that's not even true.
Well, that helps as well. But I mean, just recently in the last few months, you've started to get out there and grind on the trails, right? And you're starting to feel that energy back that you didn't have at the end of last year. And I feel like you must be putting the pieces together from a sleep perspective to get enough.
[06:28]
Yeah. Sleep is so it's so weird and so confusing. And there's so much out there. And we talked about it before with like sleep tracking and the anxiety that can cause. And I have to make a confession because I got one of those shark chrono watches that I've been wearing a lot, but then I just switched to a new COROS because my other COROS,
was getting kind of old and I had a new one and so I've been wearing it at night and tracking my sleep again.
Yeah. So what was the pull that brought you back to doing that? Did you just want that information? I don't
No, it's like I'm addicted to it.
But it's also not helpful. Like I looked at it yesterday morning. I looked at it this morning and I slept. I did not wake up between the hours that I mentioned. I mean, I was out cold, but according to my watch, I like woke up three or four times.
[07:28]
Yeah, but that's just a restless night's sleep.
But I wasn't restless. I mean, you know when you hit the pillow and then you get up and you look at the time and you're like, Whoa, I just fell asleep. That was last night.
Then ignore the watch. Take the watch off. I don't know. I feel like you don't need it right now in your life.
I know. And part
[07:48]
I don't need it. You're right. I need to I need to commit to not having it.
Or have it, but also don't let it dictate. Like have it, but just use it as a reference and be like, okay, this says I woke up, but I actually feel freaking great, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
Yeah. You know, that's the other thing. I don't know. I just feel like sleep is such a hot issue. And I just wanna say it just doesn't matter. Just like sleep when you can. If you can't, don't but don't stress about it so much. But then there's all these studies, you know, if you don't sleep or you wake up multiple times in the night, you're gonna end up with dementia. Or you notice if you don't get a good night's sleep, obviously how you feel when you're running. I mean
we've all had that experience. But I just keep thinking we
Like we put too much
[08:44]
Emphasis.
Yeah, too much emphasis on it as like the thing that's important.
Right, and it is important, but there's so many other factors.
Yeah. Ooh, I have a question for you, Trax. How on average like when do you go to sleep and when do you wake up? 'Cause you said you woke up like four four AM. Is that true?
had a phase where I was getting up in in the fours. That has ended. I would say my average typically in bed around nine fifteen, nine thirty and awake around five thirty. That would be my if I had to put a number to the morning and night, those would be it.
[09:22]
Trax, guess what? Our sleep schedule is almost identical. Well there you go. I go to sleep about nine fifteen. I usually wake up about five thirty. Not by choice, but because my eighteen month old starts saying, Mama out. Mama out and he
What.
[09:39]
That's what my little brain says. Same thing.
Jack's out
Yeah.
Or my bladder. That's what my bladder says. They all start talking to me 5 30 in the morning.
So okay, so I have two little kids talking to me and you
[09:57]
Mine is my body parts.
Your body parts are telling you to get out of bed.
And I'm not kidding. That's the sad thing.
but I do wake up. I probably wake up on a good night. I wake up twice in the night.
I would say my average is two to three times a night for sure.
[10:16]
So I maybe shouldn't be complaining about sleep. Like maybe my sleep isn't that bad.
I don't think you're complaining. I think you're just recognizing that it hasn't been very stable.
[10:38]
A lot going on.
[10:48]
I'm eighteen. Excuse me. Poor Trax. I know. I'm a hot mess. I'm so
Enough. Enough for me.
Okay, so for everyone listening, we are bringing in a sleep expert to help us unpack a little bit about sleep and our sleep needs and what we should be thinking about. If you're new here, you're listening to Still Running. This is a podcast for women runners all about running as we age. It's hosted by me, Ashley, and Trax. All right. We're bringing in Dr. Shelby Harris. She is a board-certified clinical psychologist.
Who specializes in behavioral sleep medicine. Eee, that sounds like a lot. It kind of makes me nervous, Trax. Like she's gonna look at us and tell us we're doing it all wrong.
[11:43]
I wanna I'm intrigued.
She is one of only a few hundred diplomates in behavioral sleep medicine in the United States. She's also the author of The Women's Guide to Overcoming Insomnia and The Essential Guide to Children's Sleep, both translating clinical research into practical evidence-based guidance for the people most affected by sleep problems. She's also a mom, a classically trained double bassist, whoa, and she's run
How many marathons do you think she's run Trax?
Five.
Twenty seven.
[12:19]
Okay. I'm leaving now.
What can't she do?
Seriously.
Who is this woman?
Obviously, sleep is really important, so we're gonna bring in Dr. Shelby Harris now. Fleet Feet is a founding sponsor of Still Running. And we love having Fleet Feet as a partner because so much of this show is about trying to better understand what our bodies are telling us. Sometimes that question is big and complicated, and sometimes it starts with something as simple as: Are my shoes actually right for my feet? At Fleet Feet, expert outfitters also use Fit ID 3D technology to help understand your feet.
Dr. Shelby Harris: Women, sleep and recovery
[12:58]
And find shoes that match the way you move. Fleet Feet is the best place to find your next pair of running shoes. You can find your local Fleet Feet at Fleet Feet.com. Dr. Shelby, welcome to the show. How are you?
Thank you. thank you for be for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I'm good. Tired, but good.
Huh. Always tired.
We're tired too. Always tired. Okay, so we're gonna start with something that you have talked about on your website that sleep is like rarely the same problem in your 30s as it is in your 50s. And conditions sort of change and hormones change the way our sleep kind of happens. Like all things equal. Why does sleep change as we age?
So I there hormonal changes are a big piece of it, right? I think what what you guys are getting at more so is insomnia, right? Trouble with falling asleep, waking up in the middle of the night, that sort of stuff. So what we see happen a lot is girls and boys, they actually have the same amount of sleep problems or equal for that age until they hit puberty. Once girls start to menstruate, then the rates of insomnia go up more.
[14:12]
And the reason being is just before they get their period, every month, for some people, because of the drops in estrogen and the changes and fluctuations, we see more insomnia. So then we see pregnancy that can throw off sleep a lot. We also see it a lot in people who are taking any sort of treatments for fertility, then postpartum, fun times, right? And then it evens out for a little while. And then
we get hit by perimenopause and menopause. And that's when the fluctuations in in the hormone in the hormones, that really does impact a lot of insomnia because of the fluctuations, but also racing brain, night sweats, and just like waking up hot.
Hot watches.
So what you're saying, you're not saying that our sleep needs change as we age. You're saying that the our hormones affect our ability to sleep. Exactly.
So the way that our sleep look changes got it over time. People often think you need a lot less sleep as you get older. That's actually totally wrong. it's about a half hour less for people, give or take. But what changes is the depth and quality of the sleep. It gets lighter as we get older. So we don't have as much of that deep, deep sleep that people will, I'll work with people in their fifties who are like, I want to have deep sleep like I did when I was in my twenties. And I said, Well, that physiologically that doesn't happen.
[15:38]
Wait, why?
because as you get older, your body has more awakenings due to pain, having to use the bathroom more. also just the way that our sleep staging works. Deep sleep is when you tend to grow more and repair for muscle damage. We don't need that as much as we get older. my god. So we don't spend as much. But here's the thing is that even though when you hit perimenopause and menopause for women,
And you have lighter sleep and you have more hot flashes, potentially not for everyone. You might wake up at 3 a.m. That doesn't mean that you have to accept it though. And that's the difference, is that you shouldn't accept that these changes are going to be what you have to live with for the rest of your life. But it is normal to have changes in the depth and type of sleep that you have as you get older. People that more as they get older, which is in a 24-hour period, it looks like the same amount of sleep.
Interesting. I mean my I'm in my fifties and so I'm past the whole, you know, I'm in the perimenopause phase for sure with the sweats and getting up a lot and everything. And I also happen to just be fighting a virus this past week. So my sleep is like a freaking disaster right now. Yeah, actually you caught me at the perfect time. or maybe I we don't have enough time. But basically,
I thought about this conversation when I was last night up, you know, dealing with issue fever and stuff like that. Yeah. And it was two o'clock in the morning and I was just awake. Yeah and you know, two, two thirty, three o'clock, the clock is rolling along. And so this is just one example, but like I guess I would ask in that situation, do you get up? Do you
[17:29]
Do you do something and change the scenery? Do you do like I didn't do anything because my whole mindset is if I get up and start stimulating activity, then I'm gonna make it work. R right. So I just laid there, but I did I just had a terrible night's sleep as a result.
So there's different ways to look at it, right? So the way I always think about it is like how often is this happening? Right. If this is a one-off kind of thing or it happens once in a while, perfect is not the goal when it comes to sleep for insomnia for people. It's really being content with your sleep at least five nights a week. Okay. So if you're someone who occasionally has a night here and there and it's not so bi I mean, it's annoying when it happens, but it's not a routine, then do you that's fine what you did. But if you're noticing becoming a pattern.
then we want to think about what is going on in your brain at night, right? Are you lying there? Are you the key to me is are you frustrated? Are you trying to make yourself sleepy by laying in that bed? If you're doing that, and I say this all the time, is that effort is the enemy of sleep. Right. So that's when we'll say, get out of bed. Not there people will say, if you haven't slept in 20 minutes, get out of bed. I hate the 20 minutes because it makes you then think about time and o'clock. Right. Just look when you're frustrating. Go somewhere else.
And that's when you would you want to do something else. And I people say it all the time. It's like if I get up, I'm gonna lose the sleepiness. But if it's an if you're having this happen enough, you're training yourself to have that awakening and then just get into the thought process anyways, then you gotta break that. And if you just treat it like, okay, sleep's not happening, and it's not about getting up to find something to make you sleepy. It's not about reading a boring book or sitting in the dark. It's just find something to pass the time so you're not thinking and worrying about why you're not sleeping.
And then you get back in bed when you're sleepy again. And it's like a rinse and repeat. But it does help a lot of people.
[19:20]
The idea of rinse and repeat. I like that.
Yeah. 'Cause you might have you might have to do it.
Yeah, I tend to get up and like write a list and I always drink a glass of milk. I think that's me thinking that's gonna help me go back to sleep and then and then I lay back down.
Sure. And if it, you know, and if it works, great. And if it doesn't, you might just have to get back up. It's just the train when you're lying in bed trying to make yourself sleepy, if the frustration, the busy brain builds in, it sleep's not going to happen anyways.
Right.
[19:51]
Okay. Sorry, go ahead, Trax.
That's okay. I should've I mean I definitely I think it's a little counterintuitive because I was like, I'm just gonna lie here and be quiet and rest. And like I in my mind was like, I'm not fighting this. Yeah. I'm actually helping. I'm helping myself. Yeah. Not you know.
And if it's the it wasn't the case. But that's the debate in the field is that the original way that we talked about the getting out of bed, it was called stimulus control. That's what we would say. But a lot of people, myself included, over the past maybe ten years, has started to modify that a bit. And it's like I look at it as like if you're just frustrated, you're anxious, you have a busy brain, that doesn't belong in the bed. But if you're chill and you're just resting, I don't care. You can stay in bed. I don't really care.
Unless you are don't want to be doing it.
[20:44]
Okay. So on the other side of this, I have two little kids, 17 months and four years old, who by the way, I co sleep. So there's that. Okay. because they're just so sweet. I just anyways, that's a whole other story. Trax is shaking your head at me. they'll get out eventually, but so I know I'm not getting enough sleep. I mean, I haven't slept through the night, Dr. Shelby, in over two years.
And I seem to be functioning fine. you know, I train, I do workouts, like I see myself get faster, I recover. But like, am I doing fine? I keep having this idea that maybe if I started sleeping more, all of a sudden I would feel like, my gosh, I'm a completely a new person.
Okay.
But I don't know. I mean, my sleep has been absolute shit for so long.
Yep. Well Limpia This is the thing that I always say to people when they they say exactly this.
[21:53]
When people are sleep deprived, they perform similarly to people who are under the influence of alcohol. When someone is under the influence of alcohol, they often do not recognize that they are under, especially when it's like at the not at the like super, super, super high levels. They don't recognize it. And that's why a lot of people end up driving under the influence because they're like, I'm fine. Right. It's a very similar thing when it comes to sleep deprivation.
Mm-hmm.
[22:23]
because that becomes your baseline and your standard that you don't necessarily see the impacts. And but it's not about perfect every night.
I mean I don't foresee a world where I do, even if they're not sleeping in the bed that I sleep through the night, because somebody wakes up, their feet hurt. I it's like the reality of having two little kids, but
I mean, I've been there. If you if you don't feel like it's impacting you, I do always say it like well, it might be impacting you in ways that you don't appreciate or see.
Well yeah, so what do you like what is your advice for someone like and me or listeners who are at this stage where they're they're trying to train, they're working full time, they're getting woken up in the night.
it's you gotta figure out what your priorities are. And this is w something that my family values to sleep together. That's fine too. You gotta figure out what that is and then just let the other pieces fall from there. But if you are valuing your health, your like that stuff longer term and that's kind of higher, then it might be something to consider.
[23:24]
Well, and I would so then it you're also your health, Ashley, and also you're an ultra athlete. So like, yeah, it's nice to snuggle with the boys, but it's also you wanna be running a hundred miles. So at like at some point, you gotta weigh it all out.
Yeah. I mean I was sleeping less when they were in their own spaces, to be honest.
Well yeah.
You're probably getting up more.
More. Yeah.
[23:50]
But that's why a lot of people end up co sleeping reactively more so than as a thoughtful choice. Right.
Yeah.
[24:04]
So I guess the last follow up to this is just like, is there a something like big picture I'm missing here about about sleep at this stage? Like is it's just like natural that there's some amount of broken sleep and that's not necessarily gonna have a huge long term impact. I mean, my brain goes to dementia, right? Yeah, what's your thoughts on that?
Well, what do you mean about this stage in life? What do you mean this
Yeah, I was gonna say it doesn't really matter what stage because
I guess yeah, it doesn't matter what stage. Like yeah, if you're not
having the same sleep is issues as fifty without young children. So I would say should I be concerned too, you know.
[24:42]
Yeah, that's true.
Right. So the problem with all of the way that it gets talked about in society, and there are books that I won't show on here, but I have them on my floor because I usually show them to patient. There are books that actually I think gaslight people into worrying about their sleep more.
I've been thoroughly gaslighted. Yeah.
And that's I mean, I this could be a five hour conversation. But it's like the problem is those books and the way that they talk about in society, it's really it should be aimed at. Are you someone who makes the sleep a priority in your life? Are you someone who's burning the candle at both ends and you don't really and you're working too much and you're training too much, you have all these other issues that you're not making sleep a priority? That's who they should be talking to and making that very clear because the people who have insomnia or sleep issues or kids' sleep issues or whatever.
They're making it a priority and it's just not getting better. And then just telling them, well, you're not making it priority. It's just making them work. Exactly. So I always like look at it as this is like when it comes to the dementia stuff, you have to think about what are the things that I can modify and that I can control in my life. And what are the things that I can get treatment for? And we have amazing treatments for many different sleep disorders that are beyond just like go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. And if you
[25:57]
Do that and you're going to that treatment or you're using sometimes it has to be medication. Like that's not our first line approach, or you have sleep apnea and we're working on that. Then you have to like put all the other stuff to rest. Cause they're like worrying about it, you're it's only going to make you lose sleep. So what I always say to patients, I'm like, you're here, you're working on it. That's the most we can ask for. Let me worry about it for you. And then just let it go. But doing nothing is not going to help either.
What are like the top three things you would suggest to somebody? My top three
Sleep hygiene stuff. So consistent sleep wake schedule, right? Getting up at the same time. So I work with a lot of athletes that I work with. like, well, that's part of the problem. But I think consistency, then thinking about how much are you relying on caffeine during the day. A lot of people a lot of people are using more caffeine than they realize. And then there's all this, there's all the other sleep hygiene stuff. But then I say, like, my third thing is always if that's not working after two weeks of doing basic sleep hygiene.
then go see a s someone who specializes in sleep medicine because we can help you beyond the basic recommendations.
Yeah.
[27:04]
Don't say anything about caffeine, Ashley.
you froze.
I'm not saying anything about caffeine.
I'm guessing there's an issue with caffeine.
do we both drink along.
[27:13]
I'm not against caffeine. I drink it too. This says my husband had this made for me. It says not for sleep. I drink it. I love it. but I'm also thoughtful. It's one twenty here.
Yeah, I usually I finish my coffee before eleven. Yeah. I usually have like three I usually have three cups is what I have.
Okay, so that's another thing. And it's not to like gang up on like Okay, I am feel I feel fine. I don't have problems with being not getting enough sleep, but are you also masking it with caffeine? So that's another thing.
Gang is fine. I'm used to it.
[27:48]
Coffee. I like that's fine. Maybe I should try my second and third as decaf and see what happens.
Or just start the third one as decaf and just see. But that's also the thing is like a lot of people who say like, I don't need as much sleep. I'm fine. They're often using other things to like compensate for the fact that they're not sleeping. So it's just something to think about.
So back to consistency, which seems to be such a key like undercurrent here with sleep. Like, are you making a mistake to try and play with the numbers to try and fix what went wrong? Because it's like a lot of times I feel like I will be like, you know, or I had that five AM race. So now I should probably get to bed in bed by eight o'clock, even if I'm not necessarily wanting to be in bed by eight o'clock.
And then I'll have eight hours, nine hours of sleep, but my whoop band will say you had well you weren't consistent, so it really wasn't that great for you.
Yeah. It's you know, it's about consistency is the thing that we find that consistency and there was even a whole consensus paper that came out like two years ago about it. Consistency at the beginning is even more important than sleep duration. See the amount of sleep you get. Because consistency helps with quality of sleep. And then once you have that under your like under your foot really well, then you work on trying to get more. Try not to. If it's once in a while, fine. Like take a nap. That's that's fine. It's just a slippery slope and that's becomes that's the problem that most people.
[29:15]
fall into is they then start having trouble falling asleep because they slept in or took a nap too late in the day.
Patterns get all wonky.
Exactly.
Speaking of patterns, we have both used wearables to some degree to track our sleep. I've tried to move away from it because I got super obsessed with it. but I do find myself coming back to that habit. And I mean, three out of three nights of the week, my watch is telling me I had good or great sleep, despite like moments of being woken up.
What is your position on wearables? this is a two part question. The first part is what's your position on wearables to track sleep? And two, if you're just waking up for a very short, brief burst, is that vastly different than waking up for a longer period at a time?
[30:10]
It depends how many brief bursts. It's always yes, shorter awakenings are better.
So what's your threshold?
Everyone wakes up four to seven times a night.
Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. That's what I was curious about. That's typical. Yeah.
But it I actually I don't like the wearables. I don't. Fine. They're great for to like highlight that problem. But the reality is most people it doesn't actually change what they're doing with their sleep other than making them more obsessed about it. And for a long time we were able to sleep without having a tracker tell us how we slept. Right. And I've used all the wearables and try them all. But like I love my Garmin. I've used a Garmin. No no, I don't get paid by them.
[30:53]
And then I just was doing a 20-mile training run last weekend. And what happened? It wasn't fully charged, which was like, you know, like the nightmare. And it stopped after 11 miles. For me, it was the most freeing. And it was the most freeing nine more miles I'd ever had. And one of the best runs I've had in a long time. Because I just went by how I felt. Whereas the first 11 miles, I was like, are we going too fast? Are we going too slow? Or we do like what are you talking about? It was too much thought.
And it's like we just need to like stop overthinking all this stuff and go by how do you feel during the day. And I know I was saying that you might be fooling yourself sometimes with how you feel, but you can tell whether you had a really bad night or a really good night. Totally. And then the other thing with the trackers too is that they're they're they're good with the amount of time that you're sleeping generally, but they are not as great and they vary based on the tracker.
They're not as great with the day stages of sleep. So people get very f focused on, well, I have to get more REM sleep. It's saying I'm not getting enough sleep sleep. That's not so accurate. So it's like, is it making you more stressed about something and not actually changing it? And that's how I encourage people to think about it.
Let's how do you draw the line? Let's say you have a really hard effort that you are facing in the morning and you've tossed and turned all n all night. Do you push through in the morning? Do you recommend pushing through in the morning because it that's just what your body went through and you should try and give it your best considering how you feel? Or do you just do you say pump the brakes and try and get a better night's sleep?
No, I, you know, even for myself, I don't really have a hard and fast line. It's just like see how you're feeling. Just try it. And if you're just like, I can't do this, this is too much, then pump the brakes on it. Do something, modify it. I mean, I've had times where I have to like just go for like a walk, even if it was like rough enough. Like, what really matters, it's just like with a race too, is that you think about how much sleep you're getting leading up. So it's not always the night before. It's like think about the week before, right? You want to have a good
[32:55]
Cumulative.
Cumulative, exactly. You want that there, that base. And then the thing to think about is the night after that hard workout. Try to just make sure you're prioritizing sleep that night. You're not having too much caffeine. That might make it harder. Because the sleep the night after the hard workout is going to be the thing that helps you air.
Okay. So speaking about sleep after the hard workout being the thing that helps you repair, in our final couple minutes here, you've talked a lot about just we overthink things. So taking that into consideration, if someone's thinking, man, I'm tired because like modern life is exhausting to some degree. We have too much on our plates. What would be some really tail telltale signs you are actually getting good s sleep?
And then on the other side, what would be some signs to look out for that might tell you actually, despite what you think, you're not getting some good sleep, then you should think about it more.
It's like, is it broken? Is it, are you waking up a good amount at night? do you feel like your sleep is you can be tired, but if are you tired all day long? Do you have no energy? You know your baseline. And if you feel like something is off from your baseline, then I'd recommend getting it evaluated. We do see apne a lot of times in women, especially, and it's misdiagnosed all the time, especially like women who are thin, who are fit, like it just they get missed.
[34:21]
But if you just feel like there's an appreciable change that's not getting better, regardless of the sleep at night, then definitely get it evaluated. If you are sleepy, meaning you just can't keep your eyes open and you're dozing, if that's happening a lot of times, definitely bring that up to your doctor for sure. And then the one thing I'd say is like, see about at night, if you think that you're getting okay, you're not waking up a lot, but you're not sure if that's supporting you during the day, like the amount you're getting.
Try to slowly get a little bit more sleep and see if that helps to remedy it. If that no matter how much sleep you're getting, you still feel crummy, bring it up to your doctor.
Is there any advice that you would add on to that for athletes and women runners specifically as they age?
for women especially, just to think about restless leg syndrome is a very common one. So that's yeah, I do too. It was
that. It's terrible in pregnancy. It's But I take magnesium glycinate and that helps.
[35:18]
Yep, magnesium can help. for if you are if your iron your ferritin is low, then we might supplement with iron. Don't just willy-nilly supplement, just actually get it tested. but yeah, but
You do when you have that? How do you solve for that, personally?
I just get up and I walk around and I just try to think about if it's a routine problem, then I might think about, Okay, is my iron off? And a lot of people just think, I'm anxious, I'm antsy, but they don't realize it's actually restless leg syndrome. Which can also happen in your arms or your trunk. It doesn't have to just be your legs. So
Interesting.
I think a lot of people think that's a like not a real thing.
[35:55]
It's also everyone describes it different, right? So some people I've had well, I just feel like antsy. Some people say they feel like they have soda in their veins, bugs crawling on them. It very so much.
Gosh. Yeah. I feel antsy too, like uncomfortable if I don't move my legs. I've had it since I was a kid. Yeah. My s I think my son has it too. That's when he moves a lot at night when he's like
And it can be hereditary. My mom has it. So it is very hereditary.
My one question if you have time is as we get older and we're active and we're, you know, fighting the good fight, what are the biggest things working against us as far as trying to get a good night's sleep?
[36:35]
the hormonal changes like we were talking about.
Which you can't do anything about, right?
Well, no, you can. I mean, we have hor hormone therapy for some people is is effective. we also have other medications for hot flashes and night sweats that are very effective for people. We have cognitive behavior therapy can be really useful for insomnia for people. But also look out for, like I was saying, if it's women especially, look out for sleep apnea, and look out for restless leg. And I think if those are things that
If someone's like just kind of brushing it off, if you know you there's a difference in your baseline, find a doctor who will listen. 'Cause often there's something going on.
Ashley and Trax: After Shelby
[37:15]
It was really helpful, insightful, and provided a perspective that I feel like a lot of us need right now, given how we tend to fight, quote unquote fight sleep. And the message that I feel like she gave us was stop fighting it.
Yeah, and also for you when you are unable to fall back asleep, you've been fighting get out of getting out of bed. But she said, Yeah, you sh Have you tried that? no, of course you haven't tried it yet. We just talked to her. Are you gonna try that? Do you think you will?
She get out and walk around.
[37:52]
I have to, yeah. I mean, 'cause I've been I've had the last two or three nights of just been lying there and it's just not working. So yeah, for sure. I'm gonna get up and go downstairs and like change the scene. For sure. Mm-hmm.
Change the scene.
What else? What you got? How about you?
Yeah, I mean that's I think it's interesting this idea she talks about that we're putting a lot of pressure on ourselves to really optimize something that isn't always within our control. And but and sometimes we're sort of like overlooking the things that we can actually treat or solve.
Yeah, definitely.
[38:34]
And I'm still sort of spinning on this idea around she made a comment about you can, you know, think about your health or you can think about your values, sort of related to my sleep situation. and I don't think that it has to be one or the other. So I think that's a something I'm kind of grappling with a little bit. that and then
struck a n a chord there for you.
A little bit, yeah, because because she also said though, you know, you can operate without great sleep and you don't always realize the signs that something is wrong. maybe you don't see when fatigue is actually affecting you.
But I don't it that's hard because I still I'm like, man, I still feel like I'm recovering from think. So maybe my sleep needs are lower and maybe I'm actually getting enough sleep because when I wake it's for such a short duration. So I still feel like I don't have all the answers and maybe that's just that's impossible from a conversation.
Yeah. I mean I think that's the overarching issue here is that there's no way to solve quote unquote solve sleep problems. It's working within the parameters of how to get the best sleep given, you know, the mental and physical barriers that your body are putting up.
[39:55]
Yeah, and I yeah, totally. However, one thing I really did like, and this is part of part of that, is like ditch the wearable, go back stop wearing the sleep tracker at night because it doesn't actually do anything. Like there is no value out of it. It's like I wake up and I'm just curious what it said.
Right. Well, this goes back to our intro when I said either let it go or just look at it and see what it says, but don't take it at just take it at face value.
Yeah. Yep. So
Yeah.
one more thing, Trax, that I think is really interesting because she talked about that as women age, it just becomes harder to get good sleep. So hormonal changes.
[40:53]
Affect sleep quality, but sleep also naturally just becomes lighter as we age because we don't need as much deep sleep.
Right. She did say that. However, we do still need a lot of sleep.
We do still need a lot of sleep. It's just that you need
The type of sleep has changed changes a little bit.
Yeah. Which I have a lot of feelings about that. Because the reason, right, we don't need as much deep sleep is because we're not growing anymore.
[41:24]
Okay, let's we're not going down this path right now. I know you're turning forty tomorrow, but like no, no, no.
Okay. So this isn't the time to talk about life as like a roll of toilet paper?
t table that one for now. Let's table that. Let's talk to a another person about sleep.
Okay.
[41:43]
Okay. All right, I'll okay. You're right, Trax. Can I can I make a request? I would love to talk to another mom who's in a similar phase as me. If you're up for it. I know you're so far out of this phase that this just like doesn't necessarily relate to your current situation, but I just I would like to hear from another athlete who has two little kids who's still running and training.
[42:11]
And just see how they're approaching sleep because I feel like I have this pressure to change my sleep situation over here. But on the other side, I don't honestly want to. Right. Because I feel like it's a season.
guessing a lot of people are in this boat right now in life. So we should absolutely explore this subject.
Okay. They're gonna come along for the ride. Like a true long run partner Trax. Exactly. Exactly. Who should we talk to?
I'm in.
[42:42]
How about the great Molly Huddle?
Really? Yeah.
yeah, she does have two little kids.
Two little kids returning to training, returning to competing, but in the thick of it right now with but in the thick of it right now as far as motherhood and what her priorities are and how she has to shift towards focusing on her family versus herself right now.
[43:13]
But she probably has both of her kids sleep trained so they're sleeping through the night. She probably has this insanely disciplined sleep routine. and I'm gonna feel like, what have I done?
I don't know. I don't know. I doubt it. You're just being hard on yourself. Let's ask her. Let's
Okay. Okay. Sounds good.
I should introduce her now, huh? Yeah.
[43:39]
Okay, Trax, I'm gonna introduce Molly for you since you're not feeling good, so you don't have to cough any more than you already are. Molly Huddle is a two-time Olympian, multiple American record holder, and one of the most accomplished distance runners in US history. She's also a mom of two girls.
I think age four and a little over one, and she's navigating the realities of training, of competing and recovering in a very different season of life. Yes, I get it, I see, but I'm not an Olympian. she recently ran a marathon, just six months after welcoming her second daughter, and she's been really candid about the challenges of balancing high-level training with breastfeeding, with sleep, and the demands of motherhood. So
She is the perfect candidate.
You're totally right.
Bring her in. Okay, I'm gonna dive right in and start with this question. In 2019, you wrote a article about how much your performance improved when you started prioritizing your recovery. And you talked about the fact that in college you weren't getting enough sleep and you were training really hard and maybe too hard on your recovery days. And the combination of all those things, basically you had to sort of reassess.
Molly Huddle: Motherhood, racing and recovery
[45:03]
And I'm wondering now that sleep is not quite as in control for you as it used to be. How how are you managing that? How how do you how does that change your relationship with recovery?
Yes. So I have I have two small kids right now. so I don't sleep as much as I would like. it's so my oldest, Jojo is four and a half and she's she's sleeping good. She's been sleeping since she was two through the night, which is late. I blame breastfeeding, but yeah, once I stopped breastfeeding, she started sleeping through the night at two. And Louie is almost almost a year and a half, so she's still waking up a lot.
Your kids.
[45:47]
I don't want to even get started on sleep training. It's a whole heated thing. But we didn't do it and I don't sleep and that's fine until they're two. That's just
Sorry, Molly, I feel so validated in my shelter, my motherly decisions. Because okay, we're gonna come back to this. I'm totally flipping the script. Sorry, Trax. You can ask your question again. It's fine. Molly, I feel so I don't I can't even tell you what I'm feeling right now because I sleep, I co-sleep with my kids. I have one who's turning four in a week and one who's 18 months, and I finally stopped nursing him at night, but like I can't get him out of the bed. And I'm like, they're so sweet and
Yeah, breastfeeding. I blame it too. And I can't sleep train.
No, I mean I swear it like the type of kid matters. Like it just is a whole and I didn't know that. It saved us it was such a stress point. Like it was a stress point in our house. It was a stress point with me and my husband. It was a stress point with our kids. And I'm just like, the second time around, I'm just like not doing it. And it's fine. It's people. I'm just I am, but you know what? Maybe if I was if I was 30, maybe I would have done it just to protect my sleep a little more. I'm definitely more f more willing to like
Is it stress about
[46:57]
I'm giving everything to being a mom and then ooh, it kinda hurts my running a little bit. I know some women are making it happen, but I'm kind of like not making any compromises with the motherhood stuff. So I don't know. It's a whole thing, but
Okay, do you wan can we just dive into that right now? Is that okay, track? Share more about that. Cause that's in about sleep though specifically.
Sure. Go for it. Yeah.
[47:21]
I feel like
Yeah, I don't sleep. So I know it's frustrating because now I know sleep is important for your performance. Like I learned all that, you know, back in college I learned and then I saw it work when I could give myself the time and now I d I can't actually do it. And so it's a little frustrating because I kind of know I'm hurting my performance a little bit. I and you don't know how much, right? Like I'm aging too. There's a lot of other factors that make you sure, you know, slow down from from the peak pro level where the margins are like so tiny. So it's kind of hard, but also like
I had my chance to like really go a hundred percent in on the sport. And so right now I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna get these kids through the night until they can sleep. I don't know. It's I was hoping it wouldn't be two years. I'm realistic now to know that like pretty much as long as I'm breastfeeding, they're gonna keep waking up. And when I stop, they're probably gonna sleep. but yeah, it's it's tough. I like I slept
In like a chair for like eight months this year. And then I like we finally made it to a floor bed. And I sleep with both of them and I wake up lot. And yeah. My husband took half the night when she was when the kids are newborns. He takes half the night. And then as they get kind of like more into sleeping, I just kind of stay in there. so that's where we're at. And it's not the most refreshing like night of sleep, I have to say. So yeah, I don't want to dive into it because I know it's a sensitive topic, but the whole like baby sleep industry is like.
a thing and I find it like a little predatory honestly because you're just desperate to like find something that works and like doesn't interrupt your your your work life, but like it just does. And like it just yeah, you just kinda I just had to like take a little step down, like do a little less, go recover a little less and just get through it. That's just what I'm doing. I don't know.
[49:13]
I think this is really refreshing to hear someone say though, because this was something I've been feeling and Trax and I have kind of talked about this a little bit because I think predatory is is a great word to use. I feel somewhat similar because our our culture demands this go, go, go and this perf this sleep perfection. And so and then you start to feel like, well, is something wrong with me? Like am I doing this wrong if I'm not
sleeping in this perfect way.
Yeah. And it depends on the kids too. Like I have friends who are like, I accidentally sleep trained. Like they just fell asleep one night and then they woke up and we didn't hear. And my kids were not like that. Like they it just was stressful. Like my we tried to sleep train Jojo for like a day and like my nervous system was like on fire. I was like, I'm not doing this. This is not good for me. Well not good for her. Yeah. Not definitely not a blanket thing, but for me, this is just what we're doing. Right.
Well it seems like you have to weigh out like, okay, yeah, you need sleep, but also you don't need the stress of trying to be perfect about your sleep. And it's like which one is more effective? Well, so okay.
Yes. The sleep is not ideal. I actually
[50:30]
Just saw that you raced a half marathon. Was it a half at one? Okay. So and you you know, maybe for you don't think that was your best, but like for me seeing you as a mom right now with young children, I was pretty floored. I don't know if sleep less, but how are you making that all work?
glass? Yes, I did the half.
[50:51]
I am definitely training less than I'd wanna be right now. Like I have had trouble getting over like 40 miles a week since Louie's been born and she's a year and a half. So I definitely need like if I was gonna run a faster half, I would need to run more that's light for me for a half marathon to do 40 miles a week. so it's just hard. Yeah, I'm I'm just I had to do less for my body. I had to do less time wise because I we don't have like tons of childcare and JoJo's only in school.
like twelve hours a week and I s you know, it's just like it just does I just can't fit more than that in. Right. right now. And that's just kind of what I'm competing with. But I still want to be out there. Like I still enjoy it. I'm still able to like do something with that time and energy. So yeah, I've always rather like shown up than like hide when I'm not fully ready because I just do enjoy racing and it gets me through the training and it I just I
It energizes me. It's like always been like output is more than the input for me with racing. So I'm still here. I'm still doing still still running. Like you guys. but yeah, it definitely could be getting faster if I trained a little more and put more kind of like of my old schedule together as far as recovery and things like that. Well, it just can't happen right now. So I appreciate it
I appreciate your honesty because it's there's so many women who are in the same boat, right? And I think it's nice to hear from a voice that's like, I'm actually not doing what I want. I'm just being there in the moment and doing the best I can. And that's enough. And yeah, you know, I think sometimes people aren't okay with that, but we have to be if we're gonna find joy in the sport, right? I mean
Yeah. Which I still do, but it is frustrating sometimes. I'm like I'm like cutting another run short. some days. I'm just like, dang it. But yeah.
[52:47]
I gotta say, up until maybe a month ago, I could not for the life of me get over forty miles either.
It's yeah, something about the forty. It's like I can't get out there every day. But
Even still like I'm like, Can I get to fifty? Can I do it? Yeah.
I know. Fifty just I've tried a few weeks and I'm like, I didn't make it.
No, I'll make it one week and then I like kind of fall back a little bit. Okay, but I gotta ask you because we're talking about how your sleep is just very fractured, I guess is the word I would use. So could you walk us through what a typical night is like? You said you wake up a lot. Kind of what does it look like for you right now?
[53:25]
Yeah, it's definitely better than it was when she was like in the first six months. Like I think the first six months are obvious are, you know, obviously the worst because they're they need to nurse overnight. She does not need to. It's just how she falls back asleep. And so Louie right now, she'll sleep pretty s she goes to bed at like seven, seven thirty usually. Sleep goes to sleep easily, I will say at least, compared to my other daughter was like difficult to put to sleep. so she you just rock her to sleep and like
20 minutes or whatever, feed her to sleep. And then she stays asleep for about two or three hours. and during that time, I might put my other daughter to sleep, like do her bedtime routine, which takes forever. I'll usually do like a little bit of work, like some coaching or something for another hour or two. And I should just go to sleep, but usually I don't go to sleep till 11 because I'm doing coaching or writing, like I'm doing a little bit of the extra work that I didn't finish during the day that I should have.
Not so couldn't. Yeah.
Right. So that creeps in. And I do have childcare like two days a week, but it's just it's not enough. so yeah, that's just where that's how it ends up. And so I'll sleep from like eleven to like when does Louis starts to wake up a lot around she'll wake up maybe once or twice around one or two, and then from like three to five a.m. She's just like pop all the time.
It's like she's almost about to be up for the day and I keep kinda like getting her back down. So that's like a really patchy two hours there. And then usually she's up for good, like five thirty.
[54:57]
So how many hours are you sleeping? sorry, keep going.
Well, I usually I can get a good hour from like five thirty to six thirty. I give her to my husband and he takes her downstairs and then I sleep with Jojo pretty solidly for like an hour to ninety minutes. which actually for me, for whatever reason, that morning hour is like I feel much better if I can do that hour than if I get up at five thirty. So, so I still probably get let's see.
[55:26]
six I probably get six hours of sleep in. and if I just go to bed earlier, it would probably fix a lot, but then I don't get as much done. So I don't know.
the balance. Yeah. Okay, I wanna ask you though, if you
You don't get great sleep regularly, it sounds like rarely. And so when you wake up particularly exhausted, when do you decide whether or not you're going to do a workout or a particular run? Like how do you make those training calls?
But for myself, what I did with the kids over the last four years was I usually start the workout unless it's really, really, really bad night. Like I've only ever had I've had a couple nights where you like literally did not sleep at all. Like with someone was sick or something. Right. I would not work out that day. usually I start it and see and more times than not I slow it down a little bit and shorten it at the same time. So I just make it easier. because I find with the sleep, like the thing that I can't do is push.
It's like my willpower or my like my ability to push. It just isn't there. so usually those workouts are kind of like as easy as I could possibly make them, but I still do them that day. so that's kind of what I've been doing.
[56:43]
And how do you feel after a workout like that? Do you feel like, Man, that was great. I got something in, I generally feel better, or do you end up feeling like after some of those workouts, I'm just exhausted?
I find it's kind of like I don't feel worse after I wouldn't say I feel better, but to me it's like I'd rather not skip the workout totally because who knows how many of those days are gonna happen, you know? I would almost panic, like, well, if I do that every time, I might never even attempt a workout. So, my I've been erring on the side of just make it shorter and easier and it mentally feels about as hard usually just cause you're you're like
Just not able to focus the focus. The focus I just can't focus. So physically I usually, you know, I kind of make it through and just feel about the same. Yeah.
I just I think it's interesting you guys are in the same place or similar and I'm I my kids are gone in college and I'm an Nester but it I literally watch the workout. Okay, so and my sleep issues are related to perimenopause, but I have the same thing where I get to the track and I'm like, I don't know if I have enough energy and or attention to give to this. And it's just for all of anyone listening, like it thirty, you know.
I live.
[58:00]
thirty, forty, fifty years old, it doesn't really matter. You still go and you see if you can do it and you maybe alter it a little and then if you can't, you try it again. But like doesn't matter if you're sleep deprived because of your kids or if you're sleep deprived because you were sweating all night. It
Kids?
[58:17]
You can just approach it the same way.
ways Molly that you're approaching recovery now knowing that you're not getting as much sleep? Any sort of like hacks or tricks that you've discovered that feel particularly helpful for you?
Nothing super helpful probably. Just like that one morning hour makes a big difference for me. I've noticed that. I try to protect that. I don't know, like there's nothing magically. No magic. Just I guess just to not stress too much about what it's doing to you and just kind of
Try and lighten the load, I guess, in response to it if you can. but to try not to overthink it too much, because it does kind of become another thing that you're trying to control that is really hard to control. And like I don't know. It's just your body takes precedence and their bodies take precedence right now. So you have three bodies you're worrying about. Like it's well
It sounds like there's just a little bit of acceptance there. You know, at some point you have to be like, this is it.
[59:30]
I think the thing that bothered me the most when I had when Jojo was a newborn, my first born, was that I was you're supposed to do it a certain way. Like and just it's way less stressful for me to just say this is the way it's happening than just 'cause I felt like, we're doing something wrong. we have to do it this way. let's look up this and that and this the way this is the way you can sleep through the night and this is the way you'll have it all, and this is the way you'll recover and not miss a step after having a newborn. It's like, yeah, you miss a step. I don't know. You just had a baby. So, I'm
I'm just kinda that's just how I'm approaching it.
think that's really helpful to hear too because I think in a myriad of ways, you know, we're bombarded with information to your point on like, this is how you do it. So I like your approach of like I could worry about the sleep, but I'm gonna choose not to because like this is the choice I've made and that's how I'm prioritizing my life.
Yeah. And like I said, yeah, maybe this would have been a different stressor if I was at the peak of my career. So I don't want to speak for everyone, but for me right now, I'm just that's just how I'm getting through it. Right.
That's what works for you.
[01:00:40]
Yeah.
It's great.
I think maybe you answered it already, but like what do you tell women who are struggling with the same thing? You know, who are having a hard st of lack of sleep and trying to perform?
I mean, I think s the second important piece would be like you like if you can get some support overnight, that would be hugely helpful. So like my husband and I like we split the night, like so I at least always got a four hour protected chunk. And he always got a four hour protected chunk. And like, yeah, we're both tired, but imagine if you one person did the whole like I know I still have friends who like and I know with breastfeeding it's hard, like where the woman is the one up all the n all night every night. And I like I literally
could not have done that. And so I mean, I think that's how I survived, like even as well as like even as even as taking a step back, I at least had like a little four hour chunk. and I took mine in the morning, like the second half of the night when I sleep noticed I sleep better. I'm more of a night owl anyway. And so that's that's what we did for a long time with both the kids. so I would say, yeah, whether it's your husband or like I don't know, there's night nannies and stuff or a relative or something.
[01:01:56]
Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your perspective on sleep and how you're managing it right now. is there anything else that you feel important to share related to sleep and training?
it's important. Protect me if you can. But you know, there are times in your life where like your hormones won't let you sleep or your kids won't let you sleep. so yeah, I don't know. Like, yeah, support helps if you're a mom. I don't I'm not sure what to do about perimenopause. I'm sure it's coming for me. So don't hormone therapy, etc. I don't know. but yeah, other than that, I'd say just in my particular situation, the
I'm here when you need me.
[01:02:39]
the most helpful. The thing I'd wish I could like go back in time and like just underline for myself was there's no like right or wrong way to do it. Just to take that tension away and to just say like, you know, like there's two of you, divide the load the best you can and cut the running running load as much as you need and just get through it. It's just a developmental time. And yeah, you just have to get through it.
I feel so much better about sleep after that interview.
Which I can see how that would make you feel really good about your situation. Really
It's not that I like I am definitely sleeping more than Molly Huddle, that is for absolute certain. but I just like appreciate her perspective about just what did she say? The sleep the children's sleep industry can be predatory. I mean
She was very real about it, right? And like
Ashley and Trax: After Molly
[01:03:43]
And that's her experience. Now she feels about it. And it just so happens that it aligns with some of my personal feelings about sleep. And so I felt validated.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
And not like I have to say, it's my health or this other thing, even though there's validity to that, because I don't want to end up with dementia. And I still worry about that.
Well, I think it's nice to hear w from someone who's similar to you, but also not to discredit all the work you do physically, but working at this level that's just so much higher. And she's still able to be like, but it's okay. You know? Like I can get an hour in the morning, I can get a couple hours at night, I could take a nap here and there. I may not perform the way I want to, but right now this is what it looks like. And I find that very refreshing.
Yeah.
[01:04:32]
Yeah, and she is accepting this is a season. I recognize it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Molly's clearly tired. And she is also clearly of the understanding this is somewhat time bound and this is a priority. And so she's prioritizing this over other things. And that's just a choice. And that's part of this idea of kind of like letting go of sleep having such a major hold over us. It's just like it's a different
It's all in flux all the time.
Right. She's very accepting of the situation.
Yeah. I mean I feel like that's just a that's I feel like that's a valuable lesson sleep or not. Just to hear someone to your point at such a high level.
Who who really needs a level of sleep that's different from you and me, right? To perform at at that level. And she's still able to say, I can't get it and that's okay.
[01:05:31]
Okay, I'm gonna be super selfish with the sleep episode Trax.
We're going in again, aren't we?
Yeah, I just I feel like it would be great. I so there's somebody else I'm thinking of who recently had a baby. she's four months postpartum, Grayson Murphy. She's a mountain trail runner, she's also a track runner.
Marathoner. Absolutely.
[01:06:01]
Marathoner. Yeah, I mean she does everything. She I've interviewed her before and she talks about being a really high sleep needs person and how important sleep is to her. And so I'm just really curious how she's dealing with it. Because Molly said she's someone who's a lower sleep needs person, similar to me. And then we have someone who's a very high needs sleep person who's in a very acute postpartum phase.
And I also know by looking at her social media, like she's back to training. Right.
To really get into the specifics, for those of you who don't know her, Grayson Murphy is a two-time World Mountain Running Championship. She's a multiple-time national champion. And she's one of the most versatile runners in the country because she goes from the track to the roads to the trails. She's also a really proficient mountain biker. She's an entrepreneur. She's a mental health advocate.
and as we mentioned, she's most recently a first-time mom. She's been really outspoken about the importance of sleep. So without further ado, we're gonna bring in Grayson. Okay, Grayson, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here.
Thank you for having me.
Grayson Murphy: Training for what you can recover from
[01:07:20]
okay, so I wanna start with something you've shared before. you talked about this need that you have for nine hours of sleep every night to recover, to perform well and to like maintain your mood. But now that you're mom, like I said, you have a little girl Violet, I'm guessing nine uninterrupted hours is quite different. So has that adjustment been like for you, both physically and mentally? It has
Yeah.
[01:07:50]
Quite the adjustment. But I think we went into it, me and my husband thinking like we're prepared to not sleep at all. So we knew that was coming. and at the beginning, actually, she was a great sleeper for the first three months. She slept great and was getting up once or twice a night. And so while I was not getting nine hours uninterrupted, I was getting like ten with maybe like one or two.
feeds during the night, so that wasn't bad. And then we went through a sleep regression and that was bad. And that was like many times a night we were getting up, and maybe only like two or three hour stretches at a time and that's when I really started to feel the effects of like not sleeping, especially 'cause at that point I had started training again too. So I was going on runs like Wow, these are like way worse than they used to be.
What does your sleep look like now, Grayson?
So we did sleep training and now we're kinda back to once or twice a night getting up. So it is much better and we've all recovered and I think the first week of that it worked literally in one day, she picked it up and the first like week me and my husband like, wow, we didn't realize how tired we were from not sleeping for so long and then
[01:09:14]
Training too has gotten so much better the last couple of weeks, being able to sleep and actually recover from it. intervals are way better and quality of life is much better for all three of us. So that's been really a positive improvement. I've adjusted my expectations. that has been huge. And just my training too looks a lot more dialed back because right now it's kind of a game of
What can I recover from? Not how much can I train? So I probably could run more, but whether or not I could recover from that and still be healthy mentally too is a different story. So we've just kind of like dialed it back and that's what it's gonna look like for a while and I have to be okay with it.
like that, like what I can recover from. and you mentioned that now that Violet is sleeping better, you're s only a couple of times a night, you can already tell a difference in training. It's starting to feel easier. What's like the what are the biggest differences that you're noticing between when sleep was really hard versus like, okay, it's a little better now. I can
run a faster pace at a much lower heart rate, even on easy runs, which has been really nice. can get through workouts. There was a workout a couple weeks ago I just couldn't finish because too tired. I tried and it was just like this is not worth it. And I can tell I'm digging a hole that's not productive right now because I am so sleep deprived. This isn't doing anything for me. so yeah now I can do workouts. They feel
much better, longer, faster paces, and like more mentally ready to do it too. Cause I think for me that's always a good indicator of what how I'm doing recovery wise as whether or not I feel like excited to go
[01:11:08]
How do you feel like your relationship to like your need for sleep and how you're thinking about it has changed?
Say, yeah, the first month, I feel like you kind of go through this phase of like time is a concept and it doesn't matter anymore because you're on the baby's time. It doesn't matter if they want to eat at 3 a.m., that's when you get to eat, and then they want to sleep at 3 p.m., that's when you sleep. So you just throw out like any construct of time that you had before. And that did seem to help. Just okay, we just have to go with it.
Three.
[01:11:46]
Yeah, think now too it's like, I feel tired today, but I might not get a nap and that's just kind of the way it's gonna be and I have to do it. And there's no other option. Yeah, I think that's helpful too, of just like going with the flow more.
What sort of advice would you want to go back and give anyone who is dealing with sleep issues or child or not, you know, like on this other side now that you have like another perspective on sleep, is there anything that you would maybe say to your former self about sleep even or like to other women out there who are worrying about the sleep that they're getting and whether or not it's perfect or ideal? Yeah.
I guess. Well I wouldn't tell someone like to my former self, I'm like, that's fine, you didn't have a kid. So you could operate under that need for nine hours and that was okay. And then my circumstances have changed and that's just the way life is too. So I think it's okay if you don't have kids, get all the sleep you can. If that makes you feel good. if you don't have to get up, don't get up. But yeah, I think
To just like try and give yourself what your body needs. and I knew even then, even though I have a high sleep need during the like training periods before races, I never sleep. like the night before a race, sometimes I feel like I never actually fall asleep. And I've learned that it doesn't matter the night before a race, and the race usually still goes fine. So
In small instances you can operate on no sleep and you'll be okay. I wouldn't recommend it for long periods of time. Like the sleep regression it starts to kind of really hinder your quality of life. But yeah, if it's like a night here or there that doesn't feel perfect, it's okay. Even if it's before race day and you're gonna be just fine.
[01:13:45]
Is there anything that you are doing right now, Grayson, that you're finding particularly helpful to support recovery when you're not getting the full sleep that you'd like to be getting? I
Eating a bunch, because that is something I can control. So making sure that I have excess calories, especially because I'm breastfeeding right now too. So between that and training, it's a huge demand on my body. so to make up for maybe a little less sleep. I mean I'm trying to get protein and fats and carbs, but I'm not trying to be too picky and just at baseline making sure I have enough calories is the goal.
Key takeaway for me. Train for what you can recover from, not from what you think you can do. And I would say that applies to women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond. Do what you know that you can bounce back from. Maybe not all the time. Sure. Sometimes you can push yourself out of the comfort zone and it will maybe take a little time, more time to recover. But for the most part, do what's
realistic in your stage of life so that you can get the most out of every day. I thought that was really valuable.
Yeah. So wise.
Ashley and Trax: After Grayson
[01:15:07]
So was.
And it seems like Grayson has a really, really great attitude around this being a season as well. though she has a really time bound for future state, I'm gonna be getting a lot of sleep. and I love that for her. It sounds like sleep is very she still has a lot of structure around sleep and sleep goals and priorities, which makes sense for someone who
[01:15:36]
has said, I need a minimum of nine hours of sleep to recover in a previous life, like before she had violence.
Well, and it's if you compare her to Molly, like Molly's now on the second kid, right? And so Grayson's still in that, like I can control this a little bit and I can create the structure and I do feel like I can set some parameters that work for my needs. And I think Molly has really been more honest with herself of like, I have two kids, one of needs me all the time. The other one makes sure to need me when the other one doesn't need me, and it's just
Life is madness and I you know, I have a reality check now. So both views.
Yeah. And this reminds me Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me what after my first was born. I mean, he slept through the night from six months until almost two years old.
Wow. So that's unheard of.
[01:16:32]
I know. So I mean, yeah. It's a good reminder too, like this season hasn't been this whole time. It's and two kids really changes the sleep situation dramatically.
Well, and you Grayson's first her baby slept really well for a couple of months. And then and then sort of started to struggle. So it's like she had a couple of months of bliss. So embrace each little moment for what it gives you.
Mm-hmm.
[01:17:03]
A few, a few other things that stand out to me from our conversation with Grayson. she also talked about like when sleep isn't in your control, you can really focus on the recovery, the recovery factors that are in your control. Like eating and eating a lot and making sure that you're fueling really, really well. That's super important.
Like eating, right?
[01:17:32]
Like this is what it's coming down to every time we talk about wearables.
I know. I just like I can't let it go. I just have to keep coming back to it.
I mean,
Trust the body.
[01:18:10]
So she was lovely.
She was lovely and you know what else stands out? And I think Molly didn't say this either, but Grayson just you could see her s I mean, she was smiling talking about how excited she was to get back to running and she just loves to run. Yeah, like she loves
He truly appreciates, yes.
Troll.
And so, and probably for Molly also loves to run. I mean, you and I both love to run. And so sleep be damned, we're still gonna love running whether or not we're getting the perfect amount of sleep. And so the trick is just making sure, kind of to that first takeaway that you shared around train for what you can recover from, not what you're capable of, that we remember that line when we're going through periods of difficult sleep.
Closing takeaways
[01:19:00]
And rem and just enjoy the running for what it is at that moment.
Yeah. So
In true as we typically do Trax, is there one or two takeaways that you have that you're going to carry forward from this episode on sleep?
my biggest one for was from Dr. Shelby, who said, When you're struggling with sleep, the worst thing you can do is fight that. Because all that does is feed on itself and make things worse. So, and it was really hit the home for me because I've been in bed in the last few nights struggling to sleep and then also saying, But I'm gonna stay here and fight the fact that I'm struggling to sleep.
And it's almost like she hit a switch for me to say, Stop doing that. And that's really important for me.
[01:19:59]
Yeah. That sounds like a really valuable thing to take forward. Yeah.
[01:20:06]
I think I'm just gonna stop worrying about it so much. Or worry that my sleep, specifically worrying that my sleep situation needs to change. Like I'm just going to embrace the season I'm in and decide. I'm deciding right now, sleep is fine. It's what it is. I'm not gonna worry about it anymore. And like eventually I will sleep differently. And also, I typically feel fine most days, and I don't some days I don't, but also it's just
Right. Yeah, like don't over analyze. Let it be what it is right now. I think that was what almost all three of them were saying is like we can only do so much.
Yeah. And I'm gonna stop letting the narrative about perfect sleep get into my head or make me think that I have to make different choices than I'm currently making.
I would go so far as to say we all could use some effort in that category. Let things go a little bit.
Yeah.
[01:21:25]
And to keep in mind that sometimes sleep takes a priority and sometimes it doesn't. And to accept that and hope that stuff c calibrates more because I'm I'm letting myself be okay with where things are.
Yeah.
[01:22:10]
We love sleep. You and I love sleep.
We love sleep in whatever form it comes to us.
Like I love going to bed. I do.
Yeah, I do too.
But life doesn't always allow me to hit the pillow in the way that I want to. And that is okay.
[01:22:31]
Totally okay. Alright, well Trax here's two a night of sleep tonight, whatever type of sleep it may be. See you next.
Cheers.
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