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Recorded live at AFWA’s Women Who Count Conference, Questian and Nancy are joined by employment attorney Kami Hoskins and HR leader Julie Thiel for an unflinching conversation about sexual harassment in accounting. From boundary-crossing “jokes” and unwanted physical contact to explicit quid pro quo threats, this panel breaks down how harassment actually shows up at work… and why it’s so often minimized, misread, or missed entirely in the moment. They pull back the curtain on what really happens when HR gets involved, why silence is often mistaken for professionalism, and how power dynamics shape who is believed and who is protected. This is Part One of a two-part live recording examining how workplace culture enables harm—and what it takes to change it.
Sponsors
Forwardly - https://www.forwardly.com/shecounts
Relay- https://relayfi.com/shecounts
Client Hub - https://www.clienthub.app/lp/shecounts
Forwardly - https://www.forwardly.com/shecounts
Relay- https://relayfi.com/shecounts
Client Hub - https://www.clienthub.app/lp/shecounts
- (00:00) - Introduction and Overview
- (01:20) - Live Recording at Women Who Count Conference
- (02:47) - Meet the Experts: Kami Hoskins and Julie Thiel
- (04:26) - Trigger Warnings and Disclaimers
- (06:12) - Poll Results and Audience Reactions
- (09:17) - Personal Stories of Harassment
- (20:57) - Types of Sexual Harassment
- (27:05) - Addressing Discomfort in the Workplace
- (27:20) - The HR Investigation Process
- (32:47) - Handling Unwelcome Behavior
- (34:34) - The Role of HR in Resolving Issues
- (36:33) - Understanding Sexual Harassment Statistics
- (39:03) - Retaliation Concerns and Protections
- (43:50) - The Importance of Employer Policies
- (47:58) - HR's Dual Role: Protecting Company and Employees
- (52:47) - The Costs of Sexual Harassment Allegations
- (54:13) - Conclusion and Next Steps
Resources
Slide Deck - https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1EVkM2HbslFIqWXhDHWxkgYpmtk_0ZG0lJ9yE-DgdNdw/edit
AFWA Women Who Count Conference - https://www.afwa.org/women-who-count/
- Kami Hoskins - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kami-hoskins-132aaa2a/ - creates and implements effective solutions for employers navigating complex labor and employment law issues, providing meticulous defense in state and federal courts as well as before the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, National Labor Relations Board, and the Arizona Attorney General’s Office.She advises employers on employment policies and handbooks, performance management, accommodations, reductions in force, and workplace investigations. She negotiates and drafts employment-related agreements, including non-competition, non-solicitation, and confidentiality agreements. She also has extensive experience leading employment practices trainings for attorneys, HR professionals, and managers.
In addition to her labor and employment practice, Kami advises businesses on sustainability and ESG strategies, including sustainability disclosures under relevant regulatory frameworks, greenhouse gas goal setting, DEI programs, and social impact programs. With a strong capacity for high-stakes, people-centered work and a decisive, detail-oriented approach to problem-solving, Kami’s dynamic practice also includes commercial litigation and business reorganization matters.
Kami has been a volunteer with the Boys & Girls Clubs of the Valley since 2012 and a member of the Executive Committee since 2019. On Saturday mornings, you can find Kami volunteering with the Arizona Humane Society.
Julie Thiel - https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliemthiel/ - helps professional services firms transform high-turnover environments into talent magnets. With 30+ years in HR leadership, Julie implements her proven, practical retention framework to reduce costly turnover in accounting, engineering, and IT organizations. She combines expertise in emotional intelligence and retention strategy to deliver practical solutions that leaders can implement immediately. Julie has presented at APWA Minnesota, Dakota County Chamber of Commerce, School Nutrition Association, and the University of Minnesota Carlson School of Business. Her audiences praise her relatable style and actionable insights that transform retention challenges into strategic advantages.
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission - https://www.eeoc.gov/data/sexual-harassment-our-nations-workplaces
Women in the Workplace 2024 - https://leanin.org/women-in-the-workplace
SPONSORS: [Forwardly, Relay, Client Hub]
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Creators and Guests
What is She Counts ?
She Counts brings together respected educators Nancy McClelland, CPA, and Questian Telka, EA, for candid conversations about what it’s really like to be a woman in accounting. Whether you’re in corporate, at a firm, or running your own show, this podcast offers a space to feel seen, heard, and understood. From taboo topics to everyday challenges, She Counts is more than a podcast—it’s a community where women in accounting, tax, and bookkeeping can come together and get real.
There may be errors in spelling, grammar, and accuracy in this machine-generated transcript.
Nancy McClellan: Questian. I just have to say that out of all the episodes we've recorded, this two part live recording on the main stage at the Afwa Women Who Count conference was absolutely my favorite so far.
Questian Telka: Me too. Seeing all of those faces in the audience and hearing from women who've been directly impacted by sexual harassment, and then working with Cami and Julie, such incredible experts on the topic, it was really everything that I hoped it would be.
Nancy McClellan: Well, major [00:00:30] credit to you for coming up with this crazy idea.
Questian Telka: Ah. Thanks, Nance. For listeners who have no clue what we're talking about, we found an employment attorney, Cami Hoskins, and an HR expert, Julie Thiel, and invited them on stage to discuss sexual harassment in accounting from the perspective of employees, employers, and even small business owners and their own clients.
Nancy McClellan: It was a two CPE session at Women Who Count, and so we've split it into two podcast [00:01:00] episodes. You're going to have to come back on January 14th for part two.
Questian Telka: Remember, you can go to earmarks to earn CPE credit.
Nancy McClellan: And please follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation. Y'all, we are so glad you are here. This begins the live recording of the She Counts podcast, Pom Pom take it away question. [00:01:30]
Questian Telka: Um, welcome to She Counts, the Real talk podcast for women in accounting. We're your hosts.
Nancy McClellan: Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland.
Questian Telka: And every episode we're digging into the real experiences, challenges, and unspoken truths of life in this profession.
Nancy McClellan: Because if you've ever felt like you're the only one, you're not. And you shouldn't have to figure it out alone.
Questian Telka: Special thank you to our season two sponsors for Relay and Client Hub.
Nancy McClellan: Speaking of forwardly, did everyone have an amazing time [00:02:00] at their 80s party last night with Make Some Noise. We're so grateful to forward Lee and the rest of our sponsors for helping us bring these conversations to life, enabling us to share out loud what everyone's thinking, but no one's saying. Learn more about them on our sponsors page at checkout.
Questian Telka: Today's episode is called sex in the Workplace Changing the Culture, Not Just the policy. And we're recording live [00:02:30] at the Women Who Count conference in Mesa, Arizona, on the main stage with a room full of incredible women.
Nancy McClellan: And a few guys. A few incredible guys, too. Yeah, we're so excited to be doing this.
Questian Telka: And we have two very special guests with us. Kami Hoskins here. Say hello to Kami. Hi.
Kami Hoskins: Hi, everyone. I'm so happy to be here.
Questian Telka: And Julie Thiel, did I say your last name right? It's teal. Teal, teal. Okay. Sorry about that. I should have asked that.
Julie Thiel: Hey, everybody.
Nancy McClellan: Julie Teal [00:03:00] Cami is an employment attorney who helps organizations navigate complex workplace issues with clarity and accountability. She advises employers on policies, investigations, and compliance and represents them before agencies such as the EEOC and NLRB. Known for her practical, people focused approach, Cami also leads training for HR professionals and managers on preventing harassment and creating respectful, inclusive workplaces. [00:03:30]
Questian Telka: Julie helps professional services firms turn high turn high turnover into high retention with 30 plus years in HR leadership. She's developed a practical framework that reduces costly churn in accounting, engineering and IT blending emotional intelligence with proven retention strategies. Julie delivers immediately actionable solutions. She's a seasoned speaker for organizations like Apwa Minnesota, the [00:04:00] Dakota County Chamber, and the University of Minnesota's Carlson School of Business. And she's known for her relatable style, which we can attest to and insights that turn retention challenges into strategic advantages.
Nancy McClellan: As you know, we love launching each episode with a story, but before we get there, we have a few really important things to share with all of you here in the room and our audiences at home. Um, some sensitive stories may be shared. So this is a [00:04:30] a trigger warning. Um, and we want to make sure that everybody knows that there are resources available. When we say you're not alone, we really mean it. The National Sexual Assault Hotline is 1-800-656-4673. The National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799-7233. And the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. You can [00:05:00] just call 988 or chat with them online at chat .988 lifeline. You may also be able to find mental health resources through your employer. Cami, I know you have a disclaimer that you would like to share with us.
Kami Hoskins: Well, I wouldn't be a lawyer if I didn't have a disclaimer. So just have to say I'm really happy to be here. I'm happy to give some insights about the law behind these issues. But of course, I'm not your [00:05:30] lawyer and I can't create the attorney client relationship through this discussion. If you do want to talk to me after this event here today, or after you hear the podcast, just reach out.
Nancy McClellan: And Julie, you had something you wanted to add?
Julie Thiel: Yeah. Um, my experience I'll be sharing with you is a combination of my own experiences and of those through my colleagues. And so the thing I don't want to do, I'm going to be very general in the things I have to say. So if you try to figure out which company I worked at where that happened, you're [00:06:00] not going to be able to figure it out.
Questian Telka: So I just.
Julie Thiel: Want to I just want to make sure that that is absolutely clear, um, that I, you know, I am being very generic in general in my comments on purpose.
Nancy McClellan: So question would you like to share the poll results from our Mentimeter word cloud? Now for the audience at home, um, we had the participants who are live here at the Women Who Count conference, the Women Who Count conference. We had them when they came in. They scanned [00:06:30] a QR code and they wrote 1 to 2 words, uh, to respond to this, if you've experienced or witnessed sexual harassment in your current role, how would you feel about speaking up? And, um, uncomfortable was definitely the biggest one on here. You know what, Blake, can you take a picture of this word cloud if you haven't yet? And I'm going to actually link to it in the show notes, I think that would be a really good. And then our audience at home can see uncomfortable, scared, hesitant, nervous. [00:07:00] Now we also have some people who said confident, and there are some people who said empowered. Um, and so there are some people this is not all negative. There's a lot of words on there where people are like, yeah, I work somewhere where I can handle this.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I want to talk to whoever said confident after I want to. I want to understand what is happening in your workplace culture that makes you feel confident. And we're going to go into some of that throughout the show and reporting sexual harassment, if you've witnessed it or experienced [00:07:30] it yourself, I want to I want to ask our guests and Nancy as well, what do you think that these answers say about where we're at culturally in our firms, um, with sexual harassment and reporting?
Nancy McClellan: Yeah. Julie, would you like to go first?
Julie Thiel: Yeah, I think, you know, I think I would say, I would hope that one of the things that you walk out of after this conversation we're about to have today is an increasing confidence, and we're going to try to demystify [00:08:00] a little bit of the process. So hopefully that that will be helpful because I think it is a little bit of a like if I go talk to HR, what happens. And we're going to we're going to talk about that. So I think I think we're hitting on a really important piece of the blocks that are creating that that emotion and that fear when it comes to reporting these so.
Nancy McClellan: And.
Julie Thiel: Good.
Kami Hoskins: Yeah. So the largest word on the screen that I see is uncomfortable. So I think to me that presents opportunity to help make that word [00:08:30] smaller and create spaces where we feel more comfortable and can identify strategies to address this type of behavior. But I'm loving the variety of descriptions about how many of you do feel empowered and understand how to interrupt these kinds of situations. So while there's work to be done, it sounds like there's already a lot of good work out there.
Nancy McClellan: And then I really love, um, the empathy and the responsibility that I'm seeing on here. Those were not words [00:09:00] that I expected to see up here. But the idea that if somebody saw it happening, that they would feel empathetic and that they would feel a responsibility to report it. I find that very encouraging.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I agree. So, um, let me move forward. Oops.
Nancy McClellan: Um, so we we want as as I was saying before, we always like to start the podcast off with a story. And Julie, you have a really great one I do.
Julie Thiel: I mean, I [00:09:30] think this is really I mean, I want you to know that we're all in the same boat when it comes to this topic, you know? So I have an undergraduate degree in psychology. I got my master's degree in human resources. Like, I know all the law. I know all the application. I've done investigations, I've done training, I've led training on these topics. And I still found myself in a position where I was super uncomfortable. So earlier in my career there was a I was a generalist at a, at a at an organization, which you're not going to figure out which [00:10:00] one it is. But there was a retiree that would come in and, uh, just visit, I don't know what he was doing something for the company as a retiree. And he would always, you know, he always had to walk past my office to do whatever he needed to do. And he's like, Julie, can I get a hug? And I'd be like, sure. And then what started to happen is I realized and he wasn't coming in a lot, but every time he did, he made sure to stop by my office and ask for a hug. And I [00:10:30] found myself going along. And then what I realized is that anytime I saw him coming into the building, I would start going the other way. And I was like, what is going on here? It's like, so me, myself, knowing everything I know, I found myself in a position. I'm like, I am uncomfortable hugging him. I don't think I want to hug him anymore, and so I, you know, again, fortunately I have the background I do. So I, I knew that the next time he came in he's like, Julie can I have. I said, I'm [00:11:00] sorry, I'm not comfortable with that. But it's good to see you. I was like, I, you know, kind of still.
Nancy McClellan: What was it like when you caught yourself in that moment being like, oh my gosh, I'm an HR expert who deals with this all the time. And I, I didn't catch that until exactly.
Julie Thiel: And I think that's the big point here is that that I think it's like we're not always like in the moment. Sometimes you respond or laugh along or smile about something or go along with something and then realize afterwards [00:11:30] that, oh, maybe, maybe that wasn't okay. Like I despite. So it happens to all of us. So, um, so I just want to make sure that that as we go into this, this is a very non-judgmental space. It's like, because I know I've been there where I looked at something and said, why? Why did I why did I keep hugging him for so long? I should have not done that, you know.
Questian Telka: And I think these women were so conditioned to do that, like you said, to smile and laugh it off. And, um, to not recognize that [00:12:00] that's something that really is making us uncomfortable and to act on it to prevent it from happening.
Nancy McClellan: That's right. I'm stunned because just now, in listening to this story and in hearing what you're saying, it happened to me earlier today. It happened to me earlier today. Somebody said something really inappropriate that was related to the fact that we were going to be talking about this topic on the stage. And I laughed, and I'm going back into my head. No, I'd rather not do that. Um, but it it was inappropriate. [00:12:30] And I'm going to go back to that person and I'm going to say, hey, you know what? I, I shouldn't have laughed there because that was a really good opportunity for me to teach you that. It's not okay to say things like that. So but I did not. I did not catch it until I just heard them talking about it. Like we're so used to smiling and laughing and just keeping things oiled and moving and.
Questian Telka: De-escalating the train to de-escalate and, you know, to overlook things that bother us in order [00:13:00] to do so.
Julie Thiel: And everybody's comfortable. Like what they're comfortable with is different. I mean, there's I'm sure there was somebody that would have been like, no big deal. I'm happy to hug him. Not a big deal. But for me, I had to pay attention to that kind of inner pause that was like, not I don't think that's what I want to do. And that's fine. You can you can realize that, like you're saying after the after the action and then take action to correct it.
Nancy McClellan: It's not too late.
Julie Thiel: Yeah.
Kami Hoskins: And this stuff takes practice. So it's not a muscle that we're going to have overnight. And [00:13:30] the more you do it, the stronger your muscle gets and the easier it gets. So like a little grace and forgiveness of ourselves, if we sometimes laugh because we felt unsafe or needed to de-escalate a situation, that's okay. Just keep practicing those and interrupting at that lower level of like, just the laughter or just a grimace on your face that helps you get stronger for the next level of interrupting these sorts of behaviors.
Nancy McClellan: Now question. Um, you're going to share with us another story which was sent in [00:14:00] by a listener.
Questian Telka: Yes. So recently when we were preparing to speak to all of you about this, we asked for listeners to share stories with us about, um, situations that involved sexual harassment. And one of the stories that we we received was from a woman who was working at a larger accounting firm, and she shared in her situation, she was in a like beginning role, I would say, and her supervisor at the time, [00:14:30] um, would continue to, would continually ask her and make advances to her to have lunch, to have dinner. And then it escalated beyond that to begging her to go out with him and to spend time with him outside of work. And that particular firm eventually went through layoffs. And during that process, he very blatantly said to her, I have feelings for you. I want you to go out with [00:15:00] me. I want to date you. And then in the same conversation, transition to, I can help make sure that you don't get laid off from this role. Wow.
Nancy McClellan: So very that was so that is a very different kind of sexual harassment than what Julie shared with us. I mean, I guess the story that you just shared for me, that's like, oh, that's what sexual harassment is, right? I don't know that I would have heard Julie's story and thought, that's sexual harassment, right? But they're different. [00:15:30] They're very different types. And it's a spectrum. And it's there are so many different ways that these there are so many different stories, and every story is going to have a different. Oh, I feel like this just stopped working.
Questian Telka: I mean, you're pretty loud. You can probably do it. I'm just kidding.
Nancy McClellan: Thank you so much, Julie. I am very loud. It's true. Um, well, so let's go to the next Mentimeter.
Questian Telka: Um, yes. [00:16:00] So we're going to talk about that spectrum in just a minute, but I wanted to throw out a few more questions. So have you dealt with sexual harassment or know someone who has? So just take a couple of minutes to answer that. I didn't put the QR code up on the screen because it blocked all the blocked a lot of the words. So I know that.
Nancy McClellan: So same QR code as before. Yeah okay.
Questian Telka: Yeah it should. That's correct. Yeah. It should automatically if you're on the website it should automatically update. And so for people [00:16:30] listening we have asked a mentee question or a poll question. Have you dealt with sexual harassment or know someone who has. And right now our numbers are 44%. I have personally experienced it 31% I know someone who has experienced it and And 21%. I have not experienced it and don't know anyone who has. That's actually kind of reassuring. That number is kind of going up to to 23.
Nancy McClellan: I think this is working again. Is it working now? Yes. Wonderful. [00:17:00] Um, I, I, I love this question because it's so straightforward. Have you dealt with sexual harassment or know someone who has? Because it reminds me of the Me Too movement, the hashtag MeToo. Yeah. Um, because look at this. I mean, we've only got 20% of the women in this room. And for those of you listening to this podcast, we have a huge turnout here. This is we've got definitely over 100 people in the room. Possibly. Possibly [00:17:30] more. Um, and and only 20% have not experienced it and don't know anyone who has. So that is very significant.
Questian Telka: Okay. I'm going to move back to I have a slide with some data as well. And for those listening. 37% of women report experiencing sexual harassment. And that is according to women in the workplace in 2024.
Nancy McClellan: And ours was ours was closer to 50%. [00:18:00]
Questian Telka: Yeah, I think so.
Nancy McClellan: I don't know if that's an accounting thing or if that's just the people self-selecting to be in this session here or what, but, um.
Questian Telka: Yeah, I don't know how many people they surveyed, but I imagine it's probably a much larger, much larger group. So I think that the, the data that we're looking at and the stories that we're hearing show that there's it's still happening, it's still too pervasive [00:18:30] and that there is a wide spectrum of sexual harassment. So it can be being uncomfortable with being hugged in this situation. It could be as awful as having your, um, job pretty much blatantly threatened if you don't behave in a manner that is uncomfortable to you and, um, you know, gives them what they want. And I want to go to Cami because and ask you if [00:19:00] you can explain. We were talking about when we were preparing for the session, that there are a couple of different types of sexual harassment. And if you can talk about what those types of sexual sexual harassment are and then give us some examples.
Kami Hoskins: Sure. So we've sort of been using the terminology sexual harassment to talk about behaviors. But there are actually claims under the law that are considered what we would call sexual harassment claims. And really the underlying thing to think about, I do a lot of training [00:19:30] for employers and employees around sexual harassment prevention, discrimination prevention, and the word I really hope everybody takes away is unwelcome. Is the behavior unwelcome? And if it's unwelcome, it's probably a problem. And what is it like? What sort of protections are available to the individual depends on the severity or the nature of the behavior. Um, so it's important, I think, for folks to understand there's the love of the law, which I'll talk about in a second. But employers also have policies. And if there [00:20:00] could be behavior that violates a policy which could lead to some sort of disciplinary action, but it might not give rise to a legal claim, it doesn't mean we should keep it to ourselves. We should still share that information and give our employer the opportunity to correct the behavior. But it might not give rise to these claims. So let's talk about the claims. So there's two buckets. And it's really interesting. The stories you shared actually illustrate them very well. So the bucket the story you shared is an example of what's called quid pro quo harassment, which [00:20:30] is Latin, which means something for something. And that's when a person in a supervisory capacity conditions a part of our employment on being subjected to sexual harassment or discrimination. So you give me this benefit of going out with.