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An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Well, hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of the core podcast where we are looking at some of the core doctrines that help us as Christians to, make sure that we're inbounds and that we are faithful followers of Jesus Christ. And these are conversations and questions that the church has been wrestling with, for hundreds of years. And so, we just wanna continue to step into the fray to help you live fully alive and following after Jesus Christ where he's placed you. And so I'm excited to get to be joined by miss Andy Mesman, helps lead our women's ministry, and Brian Ball, who leads our NextGen ministry. And then in the room, we've got Cyrus and Ramsey.
Luke Bilberry:And for the first time, miss Sydney, who helps out with our digital ministries and our social media. It's gonna be fun. So if you hear any other voices, that's who's in the room and grateful to have you guys here. So I'd love to maybe jump in first. As you heard this week's message from Pastor Joel, we are diving into the doctrine of humanity.
Luke Bilberry:Anthropology is is the is the fancy word, the study of humans in this, and the Bible speaks a ton about it. But I'd love to just have a first take from you guys. How did this week's message, what did the Lord stir in your heart and your mind? How did you hear it? What were some of your your walkaways for you personally as as a man and as a woman of God?
Brian Ball:I think that just the conversation around parenting that Pastor Joel brought up a few times was really powerful for me just as I reflect on my own parenting and the call to make disciples in my home and having a plan for doing that is something that really stuck out to me and something that I've been kind of marinating on in the last twenty four hours or so since then is, you know, my daughter just turned 10 and so I'm like, I'm ten years through, like I'm over halfway, quote unquote done. Yeah. And I wanna be found faithful in that. And so what are the things that I'm not thinking of when it comes to parenting? And I know we could do a whole podcast on parenting.
Brian Ball:So maybe that's another thing right
Luke Bilberry:after service. So you grabbed me at one point. You're like, hey, think we need to probably maybe think about how we curate because one of the things Pastor Joe talked about is, and do we actually have plans to make disciples as parents? And we can dive into some of that, you know, because all this is downstream of us. What does it mean for us to be humans, a new creation in that?
Luke Bilberry:And so be it, how do we make plans that lead disciples? It was kind of a fun thought that we were processing after yesterday's sermon. What about you, Andy? What was something that stood out to you that the Lord just kind of put on your heart from yesterday's message?
Andee Mesman:Yeah, just that the truth that we were created to give glory to God. And that's ultimately such a joy that we get to live into. And how if we have any idols in our lives, then that like steals that from us. That like steals that joy and that opportunity to really live for God's glory. I don't want any idols in my life that are stealing that away from me.
Andee Mesman:And so it was just kind of a really good opportunity for me to reflect and think about, are there any idols that are getting in the way of of my relationship with God Mhmm. So that I can step more fully into this call for my whole life to give glory to God.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. I think that's similar to what mine was, especially in the first service. Was sending my kids and just thinking about kind of some of the rest of things I had going on that day. And it became this moment of surrendering some of those things. What is running sports and one of my kid's life is it's taken up a lot of time and energy.
Luke Bilberry:And I was just, God, is this an idol? And then I just kept no. I'm actually laying this down as a place that I believe God wants to use to shape him to be the man that God has created him to be. And so making sure we're putting the right things in the right order, that foundation is God. And then all these other things of who we are and what we do and what defines us, quote unquote, as long as they are submissive and surrender to the Lord for his glory.
Luke Bilberry:That's what he was kind of wrestling with me about is. And so I just took that moment of prayer and response and was laying down because I truly think he's worth it. Right? And it's a joy that we get to do that and live in response to him. So let's let's kind of dive in a little bit.
Luke Bilberry:When we when we talk about humanity and the study of who we are, what would you guys say? What are some of those key features for us that give some definition, give some clarity for us? Because this seems to be the conversation that is happening in culture and has been who we are, why we're here, what's our purpose, and our identity at the end of the day is wrapped up in some of these conversations. So I'd love for you guys to help help us define what's it mean for us to be human.
Brian Ball:Well, there's something given to us that was not given to anybody else. And that's we are image bearers. He's creating the world and it's a Trinitarian moment because he says, Let us create man in our image. So get to No other part of creation was given that distinction. And so that inherently gives us value.
Brian Ball:And it should impact the way that you view yourself because a lot of us get tied up in our own self perception of who we think we are or who we ought to be. But the baseline is we're an image bearer and we are called to be that. Every human, regardless of if they're in the womb or about to die and everything in between is an image bearer of God and is worthy of value and to be cherished and supported and ultimately redeemed through Christ and what he did for us on the cross.
Andee Mesman:Yeah. And I think to go along with that, I think that there are so many people who are craving authenticity and originality. I wanna know who I am. I wanna be original. I wanna be real.
Andee Mesman:And I think the understanding that we were made in God's image and we were created for relationship with Him reveals to us that the most human thing that we can do, the most human thing that we can be is be in relationship with God. To know him and to love him and to live for him and to know Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. That's as original and authentic and real as it could possibly get. And what a joy that is.
Luke Bilberry:I mean, that is so well said, Andy, because when we actually lean into who he's created us to be, there is nothing more original, nothing more authentic, nothing more beautifully, intricately designed. And so I I mean, I love that idea. It reminds me, just even of of the phrase, Ramsey, maybe you can just Google the scripture for me because the address again is always leaving me. But there's something so unique about humanity that even angels, a created being, is not even as significant in that. That that they have something that the angels long to look into.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And I think that's something that's so significant. What is it?
Andee Mesman:First Peter one twelve.
Luke Bilberry:First Peter one twelve. Right? So that the angels long to look into this. Right? That that who God, they're made so differently, so distinctly, and we'll get into this.
Luke Bilberry:There's a there's a there's a pretty big thing that breaks that image bearing idea, but there's something so special about people. And then all of creation, animals, angels, wow. It's pretty humbling. So I love that idea. There's nothing more original than to be who God created you to be.
Brian Ball:So think about this, Ephesians two eight through 10. It tells us that we are his masterpiece. And the word there is poema, that's the Greek word there, which is where we get the word poem from. So another way you could read that, and I think it's accurate to say this, is that you're a work of art. You are something that God created with intentionality.
Brian Ball:That the word spoke you into existence, all things were created through him. And then the same word went to the cross to get you back. And so right there, that should be the source of all of your value and identity. We were talking before the podcast started that like when your kid gives you a work of art that they drew for you, if it's not the parent receiving that, Nice we're like
Luke Bilberry:coloring. Pretty line.
Brian Ball:Yeah, It's like, oh.
Luke Bilberry:Bless your
Brian Ball:heart. The
Luke Bilberry:whole seventh phrase of that.
Brian Ball:Right. But to the parent, that is a precious piece of heart. And so when the son, when the word spoke us into existence and we were created and then God looks at that and says, That's my child. I love that. So much that I'm going to send Jesus to die to get them back.
Brian Ball:Like that gives you value, that gives you purpose, that gives you meaning beyond anything that the world can bestow upon you. Living into that is easier said than done. We have to consistently remind ourselves of that because I was just reminded of Jeremiah 17, it says, The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. Who can understand it? And so because of our sinful nature, our heart tells us all these things that aren't true about ourselves.
Brian Ball:And we need to be reminded that we are image bearers created in the image of God to give him glory.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. So you're kind of starting to kind of lean into it a little bit. So I think one of the things I wanna just come back into I feel like maybe even in this episode to serve our church well, like, let's just throw as much scripture to serve them well in this. Because what you're talking about in that poema, which is total just nerd quick fun moment. If the word who is was and is and is to come Yes.
Luke Bilberry:Spoke a poema, a poem words, and we are image bearers. It's this there's this living word aspect. So it's just kind of just a fun kind of way to stir our imaginations that God knows what he's doing and he's writing this beautiful story and we get to be we're woven into that story of of redemption and proclaiming who he is. But it also reminds me of first Peter, again, terrible with the addresses, but the Greek word, it says we have this kaleidoscopic grace that he's poured into each one of us. Right?
Luke Bilberry:This varied grace. Just that's one of my favorite Greek words. And I'll talk about it anytime I get a chance to, because I think it's so powerful to think that every bit of your varied kaleidoscopic grace and yours, Brian, and all across the world is all put together. This what was originally intended to be this beautiful picture of humanity all walking together with God because we were made for relationship. God created Adam and Eve, and it was meant to be forever together.
Luke Bilberry:Right? That that was the original design together forever, but something happened. Something broke, marred that creation. So maybe let's let's begin to kinda dive into some of some of that because I think that's where that's where the story takes a wild turn, where it's not as it should be is in the fall of humanity. So so talk to us a little bit about that.
Luke Bilberry:What's happening in in Genesis three? What are some of the ripple effects? You were highlighting some stuff before we started, things we were created for, but things that may be different on the other side of of brokenness.
Andee Mesman:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think to start, it's important to remember that part of being made in God's image is that we were given the freedom of choice. And so because we were given that freedom of choice, Adam and Eve decided to make an evil decision. And that's why we have the scars of sin.
Andee Mesman:That's why we bear these scars of sin. And so I think it's really important to remember that because of Jesus Christ, we are completely new creation. So we are constantly being renewed in the knowledge of our creator, but we are completely new creation. So the old self is completely gone and we are this new creation, but we still bear the scars of sin. So there's this tension of we are God's image bearers and we bear the scars of sin.
Andee Mesman:And part of that is things just aren't as they should be. So we were we were called to have dominion over the earth to rule the earth. But because of the scars of sin, we're we're not very good rulers over the earth. We're really mediocre. And so as we work, it's hard.
Andee Mesman:As we try to do these things that we were created to do, it's really hard because of the effects of sin in the world. So work is one of those things that we were talking about before the podcast started. Like, when we work, we are doing something that we were created to do. Work is good. Adam was called was given jobs to do before the fall, but because of the fall.
Andee Mesman:Work can be really hard and can be really painstaking.
Brian Ball:Yeah, mean, work is intended to give glory to God. And so we I remember talking with some of our college students about it. It was like, Hey, I want you to be the best barista, if that's your job that you could possibly be, so that you can show people hospitality, that you can point people to Christ. I want you to be the best landscaper that anyone has ever seen when you're pulling weeds, when you're laying rock or mulch, like be intentional with all the details because God is intentional in all of the details. And so your work matters and your heart posture around that matters.
Brian Ball:I love what you said, Andy, about it being it existed before the fall. We were given a charge to work before the fall. And I think personally, when I look around at the world today, I see there's a push towards passive income. And the idea is that you can be free if you can just find enough side hustles that grow into being this passive thing.
Luke Bilberry:And you can go be who you're meant to be Correct. In leisure and travel or what fill in the blank with whatever
Brian Ball:That's right.
Luke Bilberry:That joy thing you're looking for.
Brian Ball:You can find your own satisfaction if you just do enough is what the world is telling you.
Luke Bilberry:So I wanna I wanna draw so the kind of that idea. So in Genesis two, we pick up verse five. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant in the field had sprung up, for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land and there was no man to work the ground. And a mist was coming up from the ground and land was watering. So the Lord has created everything and there's no humanity yet.
Luke Bilberry:Right? So then the Lord God formed man, human beings from the dust of the ground. And I just I want to just I can't run past this because it's so different than everything else in the scriptures. Right? That everything else God literally spoke, the cosmos.
Luke Bilberry:God said, let there be stars, moon, sun, trees, all this sort of stuff. God just said, let there be. I said your mic. My bad, buddy. He said, let it be.
Luke Bilberry:But there's something so intimate and so visceral about this moment that God could have just said, let there be this other thing. Let there be people. But it said, the Lord God formed the man of dust from dust from the ground. He formed him. He he put him together like the hands of God made us.
Luke Bilberry:It reminds me of Psalm one thirty nine that that we were knit together in our mother's womb. Like, wow. Like, okay. So help me unpack. Like, there's something so physical and natural and yet something so supernatural happening that the God of the universe is knitting us together, that he has formed man in the ground, and then he does something even more significant.
Luke Bilberry:He then breathes his pneuma, we talked about with Holy Spirit. He breathes the breath of life, the the animating power of God into humanity. So we are like no other creation. Right? Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:And there's something so beautiful. Right? And and it's happening. So there was no one to work the ground, therefore God makes man, and we get to kind of what you were talking about. Then in the Genesis three, we scroll on down.
Luke Bilberry:I just wanna read these again, call these scriptures out. So they've they've eaten of the fruit that they were told not to, so they were disobedient, made the choice. Right? And then because this happened, God begins to everything has consequences, good or bad. Right?
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. If you're obedient, there comes a blessing. If you're disobedient, there comes curse. With how is how the Old Testament would unpack that. So to the serpent, the one who tricked Adam and Eve, we know the evil one because you've done this cursed above are you above livestock and of all the beasts of the field?
Luke Bilberry:On your belly you shall go and in the dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I'll put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. Some theologians call this the protoevangelion, the first time we hear the good news of the coming savior that from the beginning, God had a plan to redeem us and restore us. So then he goes to speak to the woman, surely while will multiply your pain and childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children, your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.
Luke Bilberry:So immediately there we see now there's a broken relationship between God the Father. There's now between people, husband and wife, there there's this physical pain that that women will endure in childbearing, but there's also we see now tension is going between man and woman, between husband and wife. And then to Adam, said, because you've listened to the voice of your wife and you've eaten at the tree of which I commanded you, you shall not eat. Cursed is the ground because of you, and in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life. So to that idea you're highlighting, Andy, is work will be hard in order to feed and sustain yourself.
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. Is never how it was meant to be. Mhmm. And so I just I think about that, and and I try to say this often for our churches, and sin broke our relationship with God. It breaks our relationship with one another.
Luke Bilberry:It breaks our relationship with the creation around us. Like, farming should difficult if I read the scriptures plainly. Like, it should just work. Right? But there's famines and there's all sorts of challenges that come with that.
Luke Bilberry:But I also know this, it breaks us in our understanding of who we are as people. And so inside, so there's that, like that fourfold implications of of sin. Our brokenness has all these torn relationships between God, people, ourselves, and the world around us.
Brian Ball:Yeah. Yeah. And what's interesting about the way you ended that there is that the broken relationship, that's essentially what started the whole sin pattern here. Because if you read, you skipped over, not intentionally or because it's not important, but God gave the commandment to not eat from the tree to the man. And he said that before Eve was even created.
Luke Bilberry:So the man did not love his wife well.
Brian Ball:He didn't love his wife well. The relationship broke before Eve ever took the fruit. And so Adam is standing there just letting it happen. And that's a broken relationship. That was not how it was intended to be.
Brian Ball:And I love that the first thing that God says is not good in scripture is for the man to be alone. And what's the first thing we do?
Luke Bilberry:We wanna run away.
Brian Ball:We run away. Wanna away from other people but also the very first thing Adam did was break the very relationship
Luke Bilberry:That he was made for.
Brian Ball:That he was made for. Yeah. Now so that we can get into marriage with that but also it's not good for you to be a lone listener in any way. Yes, everybody desires to be married, especially with our college and young adult age people. Everybody wants to get married and that's fine, but you're completing Christ aside from marriage.
Brian Ball:And so marriage is another way that you get to glorify Christ by modeling Christ in the church. And when the husband, Adam in this case, abdicates his responsibility to lead his wife, then sin enters and everything is broken. Yeah. Because he was given the responsibility of, Hey, I'm giving you this command, don't eat this. And Adam watches his wife get tempted, stands by, doesn't correct her.
Brian Ball:Because if you read it, I know we'll talk about I think sin is next week, but the fruit of the tree was a delight to the eyes. So their perception of it was that this is better. And it was a desire for more knowledge, so pride.
Luke Bilberry:And
Brian Ball:that's the same thing that we replay every day. When we think our job should be better or we think that we weren't created in the right way, we have a different perception of what we think is good than what maybe God has created us for.
Andee Mesman:I think that there was a couple of things that both of you said that kind of reminded us of the truth too, that we need to see everything in life through scripture
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Andee Mesman:Instead of seeing scripture through our life experiences. Right? So we talked about this a little bit in the message. But it's so important to see ourselves, see other people, and see God, and see our work, and what we were created to do, and who we were created to be through the lens of scripture rather than the other way around. Or else because that's part of what divides us so much.
Andee Mesman:That's part of why we have such a hard time with our relationship with ourself is because we don't turn to scripture to understand who we are. And we don't turn to scripture to see what marriage is supposed to be like. That's when things start to tear at the seams. But when we see everything through the lens of scripture, and when we test everything with scripture first, then that's how we can really uncover the truth and really live in the freedom of how God created us to live as as his image bearers. And another thing is part of the reason why it's so important that we live in community, why it was not good for us to be alone is that's actually a reflection of God's nature because of his his triune nature and his love and the perfect relationship between the Father, the Spirit and the Son.
Andee Mesman:And so we get to reflect that as image bearers. That's why it's so good for us to be in community with others. So, it's just another way that we get to reflect We His
Brian Ball:talked about this last week. We were saying like how it's all layered on top of each Yeah, 100%. So everything. You have the Trinity example for relationship. We have God breathing life into humanity when He forms us.
Brian Ball:It's all connected. Yes. And so we have to stop viewing it as individual things.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. The reality is our theology is not something to master as a component or a box to check like we would almost like at school where we mastered, you know, this math exam and therefore I can move on to the next grade. No, they're meant to be integrated together. Like they were designed to all work together and that theology is so, it's so foundational. Even Joel even said it this Sunday, and and hopefully you guys heard that as well that that that are listening in, is that we can have a theological way that we understand stuff.
Luke Bilberry:But often when especially when it comes to this conversation around humanity and who we are as people, the relational and or emotional kind of view can actually change how we understand who we are. Right? Instead of having a theological base and a foundation by which we see and understand who we are, we begin to, I think you said it, you know, like our personal experiences begin to drive that. So the relationships, you know, if there's someone that we love is struggling with something and yet we trust their heart and we believe, you know, more for them and we want more for them, maybe we, our theology can begin to be shaped by that. And what we know is God is asking us to trust him above all else to be founded on him and to reflect that image back to to reflect because that's ultimately what's happening in sin is at the end of the day, think you said it, Pastor Brian, is that it's that pride.
Luke Bilberry:But in that statement, I encourage you guys to go back and read. There's so much packed in Genesis one, two, and three that really helps us understand all of the Bible and understand who we are. But it's the he said to not eat of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because then you will become like God. Yeah. No.
Luke Bilberry:No. No. Were made to be the image bearers of God, not be God ourselves, but to be created in image of him. Right? And so trying to usurp that, trying to we just get it backwards way too often.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And so I just think those are those are some really, really good points that you're highlighting. I'd love to maybe kind of shift. We talked a little bit about kind of before we started talking is what are some of those maybe personal experiences, emotional relational lenses that we see us trying to make decisions about who we are as humanity and what what would the Bible say so we can get back to that foundation level for us? You know, we're talking a little bit about work, you know, like that was one of those to say, like, I am a good human if I produce good work.
Luke Bilberry:What would the Bible actually say to that? What would be the the biblical response to that? What do you guys think on that?
Brian Ball:I'm not sure I understood the question. We think the
Luke Bilberry:so so there's there's biblical truths that we that we hold that we're trying to say, hey, here's our foundation. But too often, the emotional or relational views that we that the world is putting on or around us is actually changing us. It's distorting what the Bible is actually telling us. Right? Because that's what happened in in Genesis three.
Luke Bilberry:The truth of what God said was distorted and then was acted upon in ignorance and in pride. But what are some of those things even right now? So like one of those that we've been talking about, humans are created in God's image. That's the biblical truth. But maybe one of those biblical distortions is actually you get to create your identity, and you talked about that a little bit ago.
Luke Bilberry:Right?
Brian Ball:Well, here's so here's one. Live your truth.
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. Yeah.
Brian Ball:All right. What does that mean? That means I can choose whatever I want to be true. Truth is not relative, truth is truth. Something is true whether it hurts your feelings, whether it convicts you, whether it challenges you, whatever.
Brian Ball:Or maybe it lifts you up, but it's still the truth. God's word is truth. So we can look at his word to define ourselves. I love there's a Piper quote that says, God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, it's one of my favorites.
Brian Ball:That's perfect because my truth is actually what God has ordained for me in my life.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, yeah. And if you're that quote comes from a book called Desiring God by John Piper. If you haven't read that, I would highly encourage you to take some time and read it. It's a good read. You may have to go back and reread some stuff, but that was one of the books that shaped me in my late high school careers that really kind of set a trajectory because it's it's it's taking the West minute Westminster Catechism away to have some understanding that God has most glorified us when we are most satisfied in him, and he shifted that quote a little bit.
Luke Bilberry:God is most glorified in us when when we enjoy him. Right? And so that there's that that beautiful symmetry there. So it's a it's a fun read for you guys. What would be, like, some other, like, distortions and or biblical truths, Andy, that you would see us, some lies that maybe the world is saying about us as people that the scripture has something better to say?
Andee Mesman:Well, I think I'd say one about work specifically. And I think that this is true even for a lot of believers that I'm in relationship with is the belief that, Oh, my work doesn't matter. What I do nine to five throughout the week, it doesn't matter. It's just something that I have to get through. It's just something that I have to do to pay the bills.
Andee Mesman:When scripture would say, No, your work does matter. Again, we've already talked a little bit about how Adam had work in the garden before the fall. But I would even pull in Colossians three verse 17, and whatever you do in word or indeed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God, the father through him. So the reality that everything we do can actually hold so much purpose when we give thanks to the father, when we give glory to God, and when we do it with purpose, whether you are paving roads or you're a nurse at the hospital, or you're stay at home mom changing diapers all day, everything that you do can hold so much purpose. And also, it doesn't change your worth or your value.
Andee Mesman:Right. How productive you are or aren't. It's just an opportunity to give God glory and to have purpose in everything that you do every day.
Brian Ball:You also have to trust that God has a plan that maybe you don't understand. So I'll tell you a quick story from my own personal life. So my wife and I, our second year of marriage, we lived in China. And I spent probably the first four months of that, the first semester because I was teaching math, wondering why am I even here? Like I can't speak the language and if I share the gospel I'm going to jail.
Brian Ball:Like there's all kinds of things like, why am I even here? I don't understand this. And then it was in March of second semester that we had a school trip and two of my students died on that trip. Now it's a long story, drowned in a river and they're gone. And it was in that moment that I understood, oh, this is why I'm here.
Brian Ball:It's because to sit with the other eight students in my class because now we've got two empty desks and eight students. The whole year that I was in China was for that moment, was for that nine week period where I had to navigate eight kids who are new to their faith. How do we grieve the loss of a friend? Two friends. And now there's empty desks in our classroom.
Brian Ball:And so I spent the entire year, God, am I even here? Why did you move me to the other side of the world with a newborn baby? I don't even get it. Like what am I doing here? And then in a moment I understood why I was there.
Brian Ball:I would make that decision again. But if I had known that that's what was leading into it, I wouldn't have lived my life the same way there because I would have been trying to understand, oh, when is this going to happen?
Luke Bilberry:There's got
Brian Ball:to be a big Maybe there. I didn't know that was going to happen, but God had a plan even if I couldn't see it. And so if you're in a career or a job or a situation that you're frustrated with, his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts what it tells us in Isaiah. And so if we believe that and trust that, then we don't necessarily need to understand why we are in a given place at a given time doing a certain job because we know that He has a plan that goes beyond that, beyond what our human mind can understand. And if you can't understand it, that doesn't mean it's true, that it's not true.
Brian Ball:It means it requires faith, which goes back to are actually living as image bearers? Are we trusting God's design, not only how He created us individually, but how He has ordered the days of our life.
Andee Mesman:Trusting that He is intentional in all of that. He is intentional in the way that He knit you together and created you. He's intentional with the season that you're in with all the specific people that he's placed around you. He's intentional in all of it. Mhmm.
Andee Mesman:And really trusting that and having having faith in that. Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so I think about maybe one it feels like, I hear this and you see it even like in like YouTube clips when people have like conversations, know, like the kind of guy questions on the street or whatever is, are people are we good or are we bad from the beginning? Like, you know, like why why would, you know, why would a God allow some a bad thing happen to good people? And, like, those just seems to be that kind of questions that often get brought up. And so the world would say, I would my sense is that for the most part, we're all pretty good, and we sort of make bad decisions every now and then.
Luke Bilberry:What what what's the biblical truth?
Andee Mesman:I think the so people ask the question, like, do bad things happen to good people? I think the better question to ask is, why is God still so good to us even though we are so bad? And even though why we have rejected him over and over again? I really think that if you just read the Old Testament, like, even just the Old Testament, like, going back to reading through the whole Old Testament, it opens your eyes so much to how good and faithful our God is when we are so bad. So that that's my answer is we are we are bad because of sin.
Andee Mesman:We are not we are not born good. We're born into sin.
Brian Ball:Yeah. Another thing you ask is why did the worst thing ever happen to the son of God? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do why did why did Jesus have to hang on the cross?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, why did the worst thing happen to the best?
Brian Ball:Yes, worst. Holy That's an even better way to say it. Why did the worst thing happen to the best? Because no one is good, not even one.
Andee Mesman:Not even one.
Brian Ball:And so we also have no I called it out earlier, but our heart is deceitful above all else. So when I look at somebody and so if we take that passage combined with his ways being higher than our ways. So if I look at someone who wins the lottery, I'm like, man, why did that good thing happen to someone who is bad? Well, in my human perception, getting a lot of money probably seems like a pretty good thing. But what happens to almost everyone who wins the lottery?
Brian Ball:They blow it all and their life ends up in shambles. So we have no ability to actually perceive what is good or bad because of our human nature, because we are fundamentally depraved and selfish and greedy and prideful that I actually have no capacity in God's economy to understand if something is good or bad. None. I mean, asked our college ministry at the table, I asked them one night when I was teaching, I said, Charlie Kirk got shot. That's objectively bad.
Brian Ball:You look at that and it's bad. But then you look at the revival that caused across all college campuses where tens of thousands of college students are coming to know Christ. And so I'll ask you again, was it bad? And that's a tension to live in because we can't wrap our mind around But I think if you asked him, he would say, Yeah, I'd do that again for 20,000 people to come to know Jesus. But it's still
Luke Bilberry:bad. It's good. It's bad, but the cause and effect is God is working things, you know, together. Right? And what's the in Genesis, the the other passage in the story of Joseph, you know, what man meant for evil, you know, God meant for good.
Luke Bilberry:And and the the God is at work, and so therefore we can trust in that. But I think the the those are a few just kind of tension points. And so just want to challenge, you know, our our church family as we're listening in on these moments is to identify maybe some of the the truths that we think are truths. And the question is, are they actually truths? Because did the Bible say that?
Luke Bilberry:Did the Bible clearly explicitly lead us to understand that? Or is that something that culture and your personal experience and you you're wanting to go, I don't know. You know, maybe it is this and, you know, something like those those kind of quippy phrases like live your truth or, you know, everyone's good, you know, and that sort of stuff. Like, no. No.
Luke Bilberry:We we actually stand on the baseline we're broken. The heart's deceitful above all else. The book of Rome tells us no one is good. No. Not one.
Luke Bilberry:Like, it doesn't get any more explicit again. I apologize for the address on that one. It's in the book of Romans. I do know that. But there there's no one good, which flies in the face because then we want to our culture wants us to be kind and to love one another and be tolerant and all these sorts of things.
Luke Bilberry:I wanna go back to a biblical foundation to say, yeah, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. But it's not the culture driving that, it's the spirit driving that. So maybe as we kind of oh, and we kind of move to kind of some practical landscape for this, and Andy, you were talking a good bit about this, is there is this tension that we are dead in our sins, the old man, the old humanity, but God has paid a price through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to bring a new humanity the way it should be, I'd love us to maybe have some conversations around there and maybe even some I've got some questions that I'll throw out a little bit later to maybe help help you, the listeners, in to to say, man, how am I walking? How am I navigating? Am I being spirit led?
Luke Bilberry:Am I living in the way of Jesus in this new humanity? And so maybe highlight some ideas, what does the new humanity look like for us in Christ? I don't know. You were like Colossians three, Andy. Like, you were pretty stoked about that.
Luke Bilberry:I don't if you wanna pack a couple of thoughts from there.
Andee Mesman:Yeah. There's so much in Colossians three that we could talk about, but I just love, these verses right here. So starting at verse 10, and put and have put on the new self. So he's saying, do not lie to one another seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self. So you see those words put, it's an action.
Andee Mesman:So it's a choice. So we take off what's old and we put on what's new because of the spirit living within us. We can do that. We can make those choices, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator, after the image of our creator. We already are new creation and yet we are still becoming who we were created to be.
Andee Mesman:We're still being renewed in the knowledge of our creator. And so I think that there's this tension of, okay, I have sin in my life and I'm also this new creation and I'm being renewed and redeemed each day. And so I think that that's something that we often wrestle with is like, okay, well, I have sin in my life, but I'm also a new creation. Like I know Christ, I know he's my Lord and savior, but I have this sin in my life. So what does that actually look like to continually be transformed?
Andee Mesman:We use that language all the time. We're always being transformed. Right?
Luke Bilberry:I wanna double down on some of the kind of those ideas with a couple questions. So I don't know whoever's listening, if you need to grab a piece of paper. Know I some of you guys are walking through this in groups. So the question will be, what desires are in me that are good gifts and which are disordered by sin? Right?
Luke Bilberry:Which which are being distorted by sin? So so maybe you were made to work, but now it's become an idol. Right? Pastor Joel spoke really clearly and I think very boldly and frankly, specifically to our community here in West Michigan, but probably across, you know, the world and can there can be a lot of but he spoke really firmly that the call for us as humanity is to be fruitful and multiply, but to make sure you get the why right. Right?
Luke Bilberry:It's not just to have kids, but it's to to help raise up more people who worship, honor, glorify God. Right? That there is and so he called into that and we can quickly get that distorted in our image that I am a parent, and now I'm actually moving into sin because I'm trying to vicariously live through them or, you know, like, I put all my worth and my value and who they are as peoples. And, you know, like, there's ways that that can quickly get distorted. So what what desires are in you that are good?
Luke Bilberry:Being a parent, raising kids, good desire. Make sure it doesn't get distorted would be a way to think about it. Another question to give some clarity for you guys is how is Christ reshaping my understanding of what it means to be human? That's what I hear you saying when you put on the the new self, take off the old. How is Christ by the power of Holy Spirit?
Luke Bilberry:How am I being remade and understanding what it means to be in this new this new humanity? So hopefully those are a couple helpful questions as it guiding you guys.
Andee Mesman:And I would even just to speak to that question just a little bit for anyone who's listening, even for myself to even remember that scripture lays it out for us, like what we are to put to death. So Colossians three, some of the things that encourages us to put to death are sexual immorality, impurity, and passion, and evil desire, and covetousness, and idolatry. So scripture often lays out what it looks like to put off that old self. So even just going through some of those passages could be really helpful. Like, okay, what are some of these things that I'm really seeing in my life?
Andee Mesman:Anger, wrath, malice, obscene talk. Do I gossip a lot? Like just really taking the time to recognize what are these things that are in my life that I wanna shed off that I wanna take off? The scripture says to put it to death. And I can do that because I'm new creation in Christ Jesus.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's good. What would you say as you're thinking about that, Brian, kind of moving into this idea for us to live in the new humanity? We did we did a good job of highlighting, I think, the brokenness and our desperate need of a savior to be made new. When we look across the world, we see that the world is broken to quote the Andrew Peterson song, do you feel the world is broken?
Luke Bilberry:Yes, Andrew. Yes,
Brian Ball:we do. Yep. Didn't even need to ask.
Luke Bilberry:Yes, I feel it. But talk to me, what's it look like for us to live in that new humanity?
Brian Ball:I think it's understanding that Jesus was grace in truth. Grace in truth. So woman at the well, or not woman at the well, woman caught in adultery, He looks at her and He says, He who is out of sin cast the first stone. It tells us that one by one they put their stones down and they walked away. And so Jesus says, Woman, where are those accusers?
Brian Ball:Has no one condemned you? And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more. So there is no condemnation.
Brian Ball:Then there is the go and sin no more. But the part that I always miss in this is all the people walking away because they realize their own sin. And so if we all take refuge or not refuge, but understand that we are all sinners, So stop pointing at the log or the speck in someone else's and ignore the log in your own. How are you living in the grace? Because if you can't offer grace to yourself, how are you going to offer grace to other people?
Brian Ball:And if you think you're not worthy of being forgiven, then you're cheapening what Christ did on the cross for you. And that's pretty like a direct way to say it, but it is what you're doing. Like, I can't forgive myself. Well, Jesus forgave you. So why can't you forgive yourself?
Brian Ball:There is grace for you to give to yourself and to other people. And so it's, I don't condemn you, Jesus says, but also go and sin no more. Don't live in the sin that you were in before. Find the freedom that is offered to you. And that's what it means to live as a new creation in Christ is like, I'm still going to sin, but I'm no longer going to be dominated by sin.
Brian Ball:I'm going to live as a new creation, full of the spirit, like we talked about last week, who will condemn, not condemn me, convict me of the sin in my life, but he doesn't condemn me of the sin in my life, which is a difference.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And maybe as a way to kind of put even a little more edge on this, I wanna kind of like full circle this is to go back to how it was designed in Genesis. And so it reminds me Romans five nineteen, for as by one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. Right? So there's again proof of the fall that through Adam, through humanity's fall in the very beginning, we are in the ripple effects of that in the wake of it.
Luke Bilberry:But so by one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous. And so Paul is writing to the church in Romans that we will be made righteous and right standing with God through the perfect finished life of Jesus Christ. And so maybe as a way to just get, like, just as razor sharp on this, when we look at Jesus, how should our lives look as the Imago Dei, the image bearers? What would be some of those things that you guys would want to highlight for us when we think about the new humanity? Because the reality is the new humanity looks, acts, talks like Jesus.
Andee Mesman:One scripture, I think Mark ten forty five, for the son of man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many. I think that's Mark 20
Luke Bilberry:Fact check that Ramsey.
Andee Mesman:See, she nailed it quick.
Luke Bilberry:Fact check it.
Andee Mesman:But Jesus came to serve. He came to love and to serve. And that's what the new humanity looks like is us serving one another and loving one another really, really well. And I think that that even emphasizes the value of humanity because God cares so much about all his children that he cares about how we treat each other. He calls us to serve one another because he deeply cares about how we're being treated by one another.
Andee Mesman:Right? So this call to to serve and to love and to to give our lives to one another. Was it Mark ten forty five?
Luke Bilberry:Nailed it. Of course, you did.
Andee Mesman:I was hoping so.
Brian Ball:One said it. But,
Luke Bilberry:boy, that that's that truth. Right? Like, our world would say you really don't need people. They're just an accessory if you want them. But the reality is to be a a new human in Jesus Christ is to be in community.
Luke Bilberry:Why? Because our theology continues to build on itself. It's communal in nature because God himself is communal in nature. Father, Son, Holy Spirit, we are meant to exist in community before we fully integrated as individuals and collective. Like, what's the old silly adage?
Luke Bilberry:Like, like, there's like, there's no there's no us without you, that kind of thing. Like, like Which I know it's, like, super cheesy, but it's so true. Like, there's no us without you because I need the kaleidoscopic grace that Andy brings into my life. I need the kaleidoscopic grace that Brian brings into my life. And together, Lord willing, this new humanity, we see lives transformed.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And he's glorified in that. Mhmm. So what else would you guys say when you when we're trying to get clear picture, razor sharp edge, what is humanity? What's it's it about when we look at Jesus?
Luke Bilberry:What would you say, Brian, is something that we need to be mindful of?
Brian Ball:I mean, even the new creation, love you always reference this Luke, so I'm going be the one to bring it up is in the children's storybook by Bob He is going to wipe away every tear and all the sad things are going to become untrue.
Luke Bilberry:Amen. Amen.
Brian Ball:And so like, man, that's a beautiful picture. That's a really beautiful picture. And it's really hard on this side of eternity to understand what that will even feel like. Because everywhere we look, we've talked about this, we're just weary of the world around us. It's just broken.
Brian Ball:And we're tired of the brokenness and we're tired of sin and we hate it. It's just just like, one of those things where it's like, I mean, remember one time one of our elders texted our elder group chat and said, I'm just mad at sin right now. And like how often have I felt mad at my own sin? Probably not often enough. Yeah.
Brian Ball:And so it's like, I think it's just really hard to wrap our minds around what it's gonna be like because all we see is brokenness around us.
Luke Bilberry:Right, the Lord Go ahead.
Brian Ball:No, and it's just You go ahead. I'm just verbal processing right now
Luke Bilberry:to be honest. That's alright.
Brian Ball:It's like how I begin to comprehend what a humanity with no more tears and no more sadness and restored glorified bodies, Like how do I even begin to process that? Like what am I gonna look like? Are all these gray hairs from working with middle schoolers gonna be on or am I gonna Like be stuck with I don't know.
Luke Bilberry:They're yours, they're yours, you earned them buddy.
Brian Ball:I guess so. But it's just one of those things where it's like I don't even know, Yeah, it's gonna be a beautiful glorious thing, but we don't But it's so hard to see it because of the broken world that we live in.
Luke Bilberry:Well, love in that Imago Dei to reflect the image of God in our work. We talked extensively about that. We've talked about this idea of being fruitful and multiply. There are these few things that even Joe highlighted in the sermon. But as you were talking then, Brian, it triggered this thought in my head.
Luke Bilberry:How did Jesus teach the disciples to pray? Right? Our father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come and your will be done on earth right here, right now as it is in heaven. And we, the new humanity, if if I could maybe be as bold, is we get to right here, right now, actually walk in that eternal way.
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. We get to who is is is in my presence, is it does it look more like kingdom come, or does it look more like it ain't ever gonna happen? Mhmm. Do I walk as someone with hope? Do I walk as someone who's bringing joy?
Luke Bilberry:This is someone who's bringing gentleness and kindness and goodness and faithfulness? All those sins that we're talking about, sexual morality and anger and all these sort, it's because it's a breakdown of self control. Right? Adam and Eve in the garden, it's because they didn't control themselves. They weren't being empowered by the Holy Spirit in that moment.
Luke Bilberry:They chose to live into the flesh and not into the spirit of God. Right? That he's created us, this physical being formed in the dirt, but he's also breathes his pneuma, his spirit into us. Right? So there's this unique factor for us as humanity.
Luke Bilberry:And so just it reminds me, and maybe this is a way for us to kind of wrap up this moment unless you guys have some closing thoughts. I got a closing thought. Okay. I have
Brian Ball:a thought.
Luke Bilberry:Have a thought. We can take out. Sorry. Let's go.
Brian Ball:Second Corinthians five twenty tells us that we are ambassadors for Christ, that it is God making his appeal through us. And so as image bearers who have found Christ, what does an ambassador do? It brings a message from its kingdom to another kingdom. And so we are ambassadors for Christ means we are carrying his message of reconciliation to the world around us that is completely broken. So even my verbal processing of like, I look around and I hate it, is probably the wrong perspective because I should be looking at it saying, man, that's a world that needs Jesus.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, God's making his appeal through you, Brian Ball, and human that He is good and worthy and He is the God
Brian Ball:And of so if I walk around grumbling and complaining
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, Philippians two.
Brian Ball:And if I walk around wishing that I was created differently, if I walk around wishing that things were different, is that taking away from God making His appeal through me? Because we can long for eternity, but we're still here. And so while we're here, he goes on to say, we implore you on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. For our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin so that in him we might become the righteousness Amen. Of
Luke Bilberry:Amen. Amen.
Brian Ball:And that's what we're called to do.
Luke Bilberry:That's a new a reconciled new human is that. Well, what's kind of some of your your your closing thoughts, miss Andy?
Andee Mesman:And how we can do that is Colossians three two. Set your minds on things that are above.
Brian Ball:Mhmm.
Andee Mesman:Choose to set your mind on the things of Christ Mhmm. On the things that are above, and then you can live as an ambassador for Christ right here and now. As we wait for Jesus to return, as we wait for those days to come here and now, set your minds on the things that are above.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so I just wanted a simple blessing prayer read over you guys as we wrap up this conversation. But just wanna let you know if there's anything we can do to serve you, to help you walk as a follower of Jesus, if you don't know what it means to be a new human and your soul is longing for that hope that we're talking about, because in the midst of a broken world, I can tell you right now, the people in this room, we have a high hope and our God is good and he has changed us. We are broken people, but I am not the same. No.
Luke Bilberry:I am transformed and I get to follow him And we do. And so I just wanted to just invite you, if there's anything we can do to serve you, if you have questions, please reach out to us. We we look forward to serving you. But as a way to close this episode down, I just want to essentially pray Psalm one over us. Psalm one reads, Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, And on his law, he meditates day and night.
Luke Bilberry:He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its seasons. I believe this is the fruit of the spirit. This is lives that are changed. There's so so much beautiful imagery right here. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its seasons.
Luke Bilberry:And its leaf does not wither, and all that he does, he prospered. The wicked are not so, but they're like chaff, the wind drives away. Therefore, the wicked will not stand in the judgment nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish. For God so loved the world and people that he gave his only begotten son that whoever would believe in him would not perish but have everlasting life, a new humanity where all the sad things come untrue.
Luke Bilberry:Love you guys. We'll see you guys on the next episode.